Rebecca Fenton: Piers Morgan Killer Women "Best Liar Ever" — True Crime Body Language

now i'm going to give you an interrogation lesson right here is where i would lean into her when she said they found nothing on me i'd say wow you you had your stuff together and i would then start to do kind of a peony up about yeah you're telling the truth and and then i would start criticizing and needling her story because narcissists can't let you needle them once they think you like them then you turn on them and you start needling them they'll correct you every time i sure miss chase well where do you think he went i think he's going to kill something probably dressed for it there it is good job it's cool there as it is here and you need that today it's not toronto called but it's miserable here it's our very own polka piano accordion player chase hughes just work on the german accent slightly see i wish i could do a german exit the the english idea of a german accent has always been influenced by uh you know post-war movies but for us all as the germans are you know slightly uh okay ready here we go i'm scott rossmo body language expert and analyst i trained law enforcement in the military in interrogation and body language and i created the number one online course body language tactics with greg hartley mark i'm mark boden i'm an expert in human behavior and body language i help people all over the world to stand out win trust and gain credibility every time they communicate including some of the leaders of the g7 chase hi i'm chase hughes i'm a behavioral expert i train intelligence agencies the general public in behavioral profiling persuasion and influence and also teach interrogation to different members of uncle sam and other countries and i just released this book this week i'm the author of this six minute x-ray book just came out pretty excited about that rapid behavior profiling greg greg hartley i'm a former army interrogator interrogation instructor resistance to interrogation instructor i've written 10 books on body language and behavior and i spend most of my time on wall street and in corporate america and have this number one online body language course with scott body language tactics dot com all right well today we're going to talk about rebecca fenton rebecca fenton uh is accused of shooting her husband while she's been convicted of it she's in prison we know uh we've got a pretty good idea that that she shot her husband so that's what we're going to be talking about today we're not going to be talking about the the uh everything going on around we're not gonna talk about the court case we're not gonna be talking about anything like that nothing but her body language and what she talks about in the 9-1-1 call so those are things we cover we don't get into the case in the history of everything we don't care we're just interested in what she's doing with her body language and we just tell you what we see we're not for her being innocent or for her being guilty we're just telling you what we see we're looking at the body language and listen to what she says and we're telling you what we see in that and what we hear in that we're telling you about that anybody got anything else yeah no i think we we're going to look at body language and behavior and guys if you want to know more about her there's a ton about her you can go find online this is a really well-known case and settled yeah yeah one more thing so check out piers morgan who is interviewing her here you'll probably know piers morgan from america's got talent the celebrity apprentice he was also at the age of 29 the editor of rupert murdoch's the news of the world so he's really seen a lot of people and he's been around and he's he's seen a lot of stuff he actually said of rebecca fenton she is the best liar i've ever seen and he said he finds that fascinating so if piers thinks this is the best liar he's ever seen like he's seen a lot of liars in his time believe me and he's been a naughty boy himself now and again as well i think he'd admit to that so uh so check out piers and also check out rebecca fenton the the best liar he's ever seen awesome all right let's take a look at the first video tell me in your words what happened uh larry was home he was watching tiger woods and then was going to take a nap and watch the super bowl later on that evening i checked on him to see if he needed anything he said that we would order a pizza later and i went back out to the gym the last thing that my husband said to me was i love you i had the music blaring and was working out i walked into my house at approximately 4 35 o'clock in the afternoon and i found my husband in a pool of blood i've never seen so much blood in my life and i could see from where i was standing that my house had been ransacked i didn't know if larry had fallen down the stairs if larry had been shot if larry had been stabbed i had no idea what had happened but i frantically tried to take his pulse and then ran outside to call 9-1-1 i thought my husband was still alive because his eyes were open and i told him to hold on my world has not been the same since and nothing has made much sense for me since that time but the police seemed pretty certain that you were the killer that you cold-bloodedly took a gun and pumped five bullets into your husband until he was dead that's what they believe all right chase what do you got we definitely see a lot here one thing we're gonna start seeing a lot of that you're seeing in this video is her nodding for the other person to not she's wanting pierce to start nodding she's asking for approval and he's not doing it and you'll notice that in these other videos but she's only nodding during the times when she's offering up a piece of evidence that makes her innocent and i thought that was pretty interesting and she also has an upward tone when she's saying something and asking you to agree with it at the times when she's presenting that evidence and more than 50 of the time she'll also include an eyebrow flash with that nod to make sure that you do the same that you follow along with that behavior there was when the pierce is offering up this accusation the police are saying that you shot this person in gold blood walking through that we see emotional accessing down here with the eyes followed by a distance there's a stair there's a slight head shake and there is it's followed by a tiny swallow right at the end of this clip in my line of work in 20 years of doing this stuff i see a lot of this and this is called dissociation so i think we're going to start seeing a pattern here of a person of the behaviors of a person who has experienced a lot of dissociation and especially with things that she's been through in her past things she's done in her past dissociation may be par for the course for her childhood and probably much of her adult life and there's two types of association dissociation i'll just cover really quick there's depersonalization and there's derealization depersonalization means that this isn't me doing this this these hands were not mine that did this and there's derealization which means the world isn't real this situation is fake i don't feel like i'm in a real situation the the derealization tends to lead to anti-social behavior which this woman is social she's able to do the facial expressions she makes good well good conversation i say that you know with all the slack i can give it the depersonalization part of it to where the person is detached from self is more likely to lead into higher social development so they're the ones that are likely to be what we're seeing here so i think she is a depersonalization person and what i mean by dissociation is that especially in kids in their childhood when they're undergoing if they undergo some kind of severe trauma or even light trauma in many cases they detach from the present moment and grown-ups who have been doing this for a long time this muscle tends to strengthen over time and they find that it's easier to do things way outside of their normal comfort zone because they can dissociate from the action and i think there may be some stuff we're about to see that's going to bring this up again and apologize for the long explanation i'll pass it to you greg yeah so a couple of things her down left eye movement i'm going to give you what this is in you her down left eye movement it's her navigating the minefield she's walking through an internal conversation about what she's thinking try this at home you try to calculate 15 of 980 without rounding and you're gonna find first you'll try to look up to your left a little that won't work and you'll drop down into your lower left as you're rifling through trying to figure out an actual internal conversation with self you see you're doing that a lot in this video when i ask a question i don't expect a person to do that because they're figuring out how to answer is what it is she also is starting to tell a narrative they're structured her story she's starting off and mark i'm gonna not steal much here because i know you're gonna have a lot around storytelling and she's starting to build story structures she can later use if i were interrogating her he missed one opportunity here that i would say she said words that leave a glaring hole in her story from me and she says he was taking he was watching tiger woods and then was going to take a nap there's a weird tense change for you so okay maybe that's the way she's remembering it i would have said exactly what was he watching tiger woods because i can verify that on tv i can tell what was going on at that point but the end then he was going to take a nap i would venture to say somewhere in there and there's a problem this only time i hear use that word pattern in her entire story and joe navarre and jack schaefer call that verbal bridging i call it time hiding whatever you want to call it i'd say they coined the phrase verbal bridging there's that she does that lilt at almost every opportunity that she tells you something that lilting my house was ransacked the other thing is when people make their living using their face when people smile a lot it leaves residuals when people have a train wreck of stuff on their face it's because they do a lot of train wreck stuff with their face i can just about guarantee you there's some intensity in this person we're not seeing in this interview and all the etching or residuals that you're seeing or all those years of her scrunching up her head and doing whatever she does i venture to say an argument with her is a very hot argument just by looking at her face look at mine you can tell i've been kind of a jerk to people in my life so if i've got this and she's got that that's a pretty bad indicator and then finally if you listen to her you'll find she does a great great grief she engages the chin and her forehead but we don't know why guys there's no indicator of deception there's no single indicator it just makes us know what to ask next but she tongue juts in the middle of that and this is not a grooming move this is a full-on tongue jug i mean it sticks out and then last one i'll leave you with and you watch from here on 21 first-person pronouns she's talking about her husband he gets about 11. that's what i got scott what do you got all right let's talk about some of the things she said and it's the way she looked when she said them when she's talking about the last words her husband told her he's the last thing my husband said was i love you she doesn't show any emotion in that when i tell you guys when i when i put my dog albert when we had to go put him to sleep i know what time it was i know exactly what my face was doing and it and even though a little time has passed since then when i'm when i'm not in this situation i'm explaining to someone my face isn't going to look like it does now it's going to be a little bit more emotional than this her face she's talking about her husband the guy that she was supposed to be the the soul mate with she shows no emotion at all in in that in the direction of sadness or grief she said the last thing he said was it was i love me he loves me also in this the women watching this they're going to say why does this hit me wrong why does this sound why is this odd and they're going to feel in their gut because what their brain has seen is this they've seen an edit in in that he that that the last thing he said was that he loved me and she keeps talking wasn't part of that original question because if you'll listen to that you'll hear him talking in the background they've cut his mic so you don't hear him talking they've cut to her and you can hear his voice the the room sound of his voice bouncing off back there and he's asking her something else so if there's a woman watching this you go why does that feel so weird that you didn't know what to look for listen for it that's why it feels weird to you i love those ears scott i didn't hear that that's wonderful well then she get then she talks about this she says i came in approximately 4 35 o'clock that's great because that gives her that 30 minute window to shoot this guy and clean everything up and do everything she needs to do to get ready to present this to the 911 to the the dispatcher to the 911 operator so you've got that amount of time and she makes sure to say it was i don't know what time it was in other words it was approximately 4 35 o'clock and i and i was in the gym you know she says that she was in the gym and when she came back in um yeah she said i had the music blasting and i was working out and that fits the alibi that goes with why she didn't hear the gunshots as well now uh in in the full 9-1-1 call we're not going to listen to the whole thing she mentioned she was in the gym eight times eight times she says i was in the gym and i just come frack from the gym i had been in the gym i just came in from the eight times that's saying if you're not talking about the person needing help and it in that first first things out of your mouth something's up we'll get to that when we get to the call but that 30 minute window gives her enough time to get rid of all to wipe things clean to clean things up clean herself up and then get psyched up and make that phone call so that's what i got mark what do you got yeah lovely so lots of good things set up here uh absolutely concur with everything i've heard that listen out for those inflections lots of upward inflections in this one which often sound kind of uh like requests for approval or that it that it might be a question more of a statement later on we will hear some downward inflections and they'll be around things that we actually know to be factual so so let's point those out as we go along um yeah good point greg you know why was tiger woods on the television well that was the phoenix open in arizona apparently and that's why tiger woods is on the tv so does she mention tiger woods because she puts a big stress on tiger woods does she mention that because she's kind of a big golf fan and it really sticks in her mind or is it that tiger woods is not only an icon of golf but an icon of infidelity he is representative of both those things and in fact for many people more of an icon of infidelity infidelity and so now i've never i've never come across this story before but the moment i heard that stress on tiger woods was the moment where i thought we're going to hear about somebody being some some infidelity a bit later on i would gamble so so watch out for for that uh the last thing my husband said to me was i love you upward inflection i think this is a resume statement this is he told me he loves me so you know we're in love so why would i kill him so it's already set up there i kind of killed him because the last thing he said was i love you and therefore you know we must love each other back um absolutely request for approval all the way through now responds with concern and confusion at the end and absolutely we've got grief muscles here and here and it's and it's really good like it's it's it's really good i think when when piers morgan says this is a really good liar yeah this is really good stuff she does it really really well and if it weren't for all these other things around it and and what we're going to hear about that signal alone would probably get most people and they would feel immediate empathy around that grief so so as a first um first out of the gate here uh good performance but with quite a few interesting tells in there about what we're gonna see later on that's what i got for you excellent tell me in your words what happened uh larry was home he was watching tiger woods and then was going to take a nap and watch the super bowl later on that evening i checked on him to see if he needed anything he said that we would order a pizza later and i went back out to the gym the last thing that my husband said to me was i love you i had the music blaring and was working out i walked into my house at approximately 4 35 o'clock in the afternoon and i found my husband in a pool of blood i've never seen so much blood in my life and i could see from where i was standing that my house had been ransacked i didn't know if larry had fallen down the stairs if larry had been shot if larry had been stabbed i had no idea what had happened but i frantically tried to take his pulse and then ran outside to call 9-1-1 i thought my husband was still alive because his eyes were open and i told him to hold on my world has not been the same since and nothing has made much sense for me since that time but the police seemed pretty certain that you were the killer that you cold-bloodedly took a gun and pumped five bullets into your husband until he was dead that's what they believe all right we good lovely let's move on the police found the ransacking extremely suspect that's what they said they're putting it all together and it's incredibly compelling case if you were watching la law or something on tv you would be convicting this person almost certainly most people think you're guilty why should we believe that you're not because of the things that weren't looked at i was convicted on absolutely no physical evidence whatsoever they found fingerprints and footprints that were never matched to anybody that belonged to strangers there was no dna no evidence on that firearm that resembled me at all all right i'm gonna go first on this one so when when he says why should i why should we believe you the answer is because i'm not a murderer i wouldn't do something like that i'm not that kind of person i'm that's not me i don't do that that's the answer you give not a long drawn out thing about evidence and these other things that go down to the to the analytical side of it you're not there you say i'm not that kind of person that's why i wouldn't do that that's where you go with that as we go this we see we see a picture of the bathroom and we see pill bottles in the in the pill chest or whatever's been gone through the little where the behind the mirror the pill bottles are laying everywhere that's not what happens when somebody goes through your your pill chest when somebody breaks into your house to steal stuff what they do is they go in the bedroom and they get your they'll get a pillow case and they'll get a sheet or the top blanket off the bed and that's what they throw everything on and they wrap it up and they leave with that like santa claus so those pills wouldn't be laying the floor they're not pulling them out looking at them all this is for saying what i need this is my need they go through and they just pull it all into it to a pillow case and they leave with that that's why that's they found that suspect that's that's what was wrong with that odd wording odd learning and this when she starts talking about the dna and i know we we all talked about this earlier we all wanted to thought this was funny which is there was no dna there was no evidence on that firearm she never says gun she says firearms she's separating herself from from the gun now who calls it a firearm who talks like that and then she says uh then she says no evidence on that firearm that resembled me at all that's that's that's weird that's weird again she's separating herself that resembled me at all nothing on that gun that resembled me i've never heard that before my life that is weird that's weird to hear greg what do you got yeah so i think you're starting now to see a pattern i think she started off telling a story and her pattern now is going to be an attorney she is suddenly going to be excuse my english and you can bleep this a little bit if you want the army we're to call that house lawyer and she's going to give everybody advice she's going to know how this works she'll shift gears and go into jargon she'll speak legalese something that's not real but she feels like sounds real it's like when people use the wrong pronouns because they're trying to be pretentious and they go him and i or he and i at the inappropriate times and you start to see that shift she's trying to appear to be more presentable and she's clearly aware that she may or may not be presentable at this point he also even we don't have it in this video but piers morgan made her cry because he said your mother thinks you killed him there's a pretty good indicator usually when your mother says we i think she might have done it um she said i had not looked there was no physical evidence that's what they said you see she's starting to distance from anything that has expertise or anything else and i think she's creating a campaign here by saying there was i agree with you average people don't call guns firearms firearms are things cops call them or murder weapons or those kinds of things and she's picking up on those words because she's trying to have credibility when a person over extends himself into a new space and maybe she does this all the time it might be in her personality but when a person overextends themselves into new language scott you and i both know when people use medical jargon or legal jargon what's that a red flag of psychopaths they always want to blend in and fit and they try to fit right in in that business so i'm not going to go any further than that she's trying to create reasonable doubt in the legal term like she's back at trial that's what i think she's doing so from that chase what do you got so there's one thing that every interrogator learns when you first start out maybe your first day of class a failure to make a strong positive denial is a gigantic red flag i didn't do it i don't care i don't have to prove myself i didn't do it there's no possible way i would ever do something like this that's a strong confident positive denial that i did i didn't do this thing and we see a chin thrust here a nice big one when he's starting to bring the topic up and this is indicative of disdain or sometimes contempt but it's it's in the primate world we are primates all primates will will expose the neck to show that i'm i'm not threatening but this is also to challenge the other person out of anger so you see we see drunk idiots in a bar who are about to get into a fight their their chin goes up their arms come out we see all these vital organs getting exposed to show i'm not i'm not afraid of you so we see that here but there's two things here i want you to really pay attention to for the rest of this entire youtube video i want you to watch if somebody killed someone that's close to you god forbid you'd be really really concerned about the perpetrator you would talk about them you would mention them when you wouldn't say i don't know how the gun got in the car you'd say i don't know who put the gun in the car the conversation would be about the perpetrator and not an action and we'll uncover some more of this in just a minute mark yes so in our last video what you'd have seen is plenty of chin down to to chase his point and so in this one oh and in the last one as well as as i think scott was saying uh lots of mentions of herself okay in this video where piers comes in and says why should we uh why should we believe you he starts to put into question herself and at that point once herself is questioned up comes the chin and the response to that confrontation is i would say arrogance which is to say you cannot question me i am untouchable here are my kill points yeah you're not gonna get me it's it's an and it's an extreme difference i want you to go back and look at where the head is placed for the predominance of that first video and look where the head is placed on that second video and realize that the question is why should we believe you and see what effect that has now i even checked the camera angle to make sure the camera as it came from piers didn't dip down that it might make it look like that the camera the the person on the camera is getting exactly the same height not gone underneath so it's definitely a big display to that questioning that person around believability i'll leave it i think the two of you are on to something the bar fight and the that's what you're seeing that's a scrapper throwing their chin up prepared for what you're at that's the reason the chin goes up with her i have that in my notes when arrogance happens the person believes that they're untouchable it's basically to say when you do it in close proximity within striking distance you're saying i don't think you're going to attack i don't think you've got it i don't think you have anything and that's what's beautifully arrogant about it especially when you've got somebody with power in front of you and piers has some power she doesn't think he has any power yeah we see that a couple we we see that a couple of times later on as well yeah in a couple of videos so that's we'll we'll point those out that time yes i totally agree with you yeah the police found the ransacking extremely suspect that's what they said they're putting it all together and it's incredibly compelling case if you were watching l.a law or something on tv you would be convicting this person almost certainly most people think you're guilty why should we believe that you're not because of the things that weren't looked at i was convicted on absolutely no physical evidence whatsoever they found fingerprints and footprints that were never matched to anybody that belonged to strangers there was no dna no evidence on that firearm that resembled me at all all right we're good yeah yeah let's move along were you always completely faithful to larry yes there was a suggestion yes that you're aware of that there was a man at a a called david um you made 160 phone calls between each other over after larry's death right after larry's death a few weeks yeah i mean that's a lot of phone calls with another man was he somebody you had seen prior to larry's death he was somebody that i met in a a he was a very nice man there was never anything romantic or sexual between us and right after larry was killed he really stepped up and held me up i called him so much that it actually drove him crazy and he had to pull away from me as a friend and not be able to really help me as much as he wanted to in the beginning all right mark what do you got uh yeah notice there are two very different yeses happening there there's a yes that starts very soft at the start and has kind of three tonal movements in it it kind of goes yeah and then there's another yes afterwards that goes yes which just has one up and down tonal movement to it so they're just one word yes but i would like you to go back and think is one of those yeses true and one of those yeses false i would suggest the yes that just goes yes that is that is a true answer okay i would suggest the the uh the the yes that goes yeah like that not telling the truth there so we can look out for this uh along our journey through this uh romantic sexual when that's talked about you see her eyes narrow and i would say you start to see anger on the face and pierce becomes the target of anger around the idea of romantic and sexual i think that's why as we were all noting before we came back you start to see the blink rate of piers go up quite significantly and i would suggest we start to see him get a little bit worried his instinct knows he's just got targeted by her he has said something which is triggering her and and i i would reckon he's starting to feel it at an unconscious maybe even conscious uh level um i called him so much it drove him crazy uh he had to pull away from me as a friend uh so that's kind of interesting because what she's basically saying is somebody broke up a relationship with me because they called i called them so much think about in your life you know what would if somebody called you so much that you had to break off your friendship with them what might it say to you about the personality of that person the kind of calls that you were getting like what would have to happen for you in a myriad of calls for you to go this is it i just i can't do this anymore i can't be a friend anymore because again this is starting to uh give us an idea of the the character the personality that we have here she says he was not able to help me as much as he wanted to in the beginning so what she's saying is is she's saying he didn't come up to his own muster and by that she's gaining superiority over him throughout this whole piece what she manages to do is say that this person was less than they should be and so in my view i would start to suggest uh you know with all the evidence that we've had so far that we're seeing the personality of a malignant narcissist at this point which is usually pretty dangerous so again go through all that we've said before start to look at those things where instead of thinking about a victim they're talking about themselves they're talking about the the the amount that they've suffered um they'll usually be going up against authority nothing of authority counts anymore it doesn't have any validity easily uh angered so um yeah i'll leave it there scott what have you got all right um when she first starts talking when he asks her if if she's seeing anybody else when she says yes everything she talks about from that point starts getting quieter she doesn't say uh um were you always faithful to larry she didn't say yeah yeah yes oh and she says yes it's very quiet she doesn't there's no affirmative in there i mean other than the word yes um and then she's head nod and she says yes i never did anything like that blah blah it still keeps getting quieter as she goes along she never says this guy's name i know his last name is nolan i can't remember what his first name is and she says he was a very nice man he always she always refers to him as he or him she never says his name she just talks about how wonderful this guy was right and then um she's got too many of those affirmative head nods after she answers she's again like goes back to what chase was saying eyebrows are up and she's like you know you get it you know or you agree with me once when he says is there was there anything romantic or sexual between or there's when she says there was nothing or there's there wasn't anything romantic or sexual between us some people are going to think that head nod again leading back to that means she's saying yes as she's saying no while she's saying no that's not what it is again it's that affirmative connection where she's making that hard eye contact those eyebrows are up and she's going there was nothing you understand what i'm saying you agree with me and again he's not agreeing with her so that's why she's coming out so hard with that i believe all right chase what do you got yeah so one of the things i'll make this short you guys are talking about here is called psychological distancing so we're distancing from the person and typically suspects in a crime who have committed a crime or are being deceptive are less likely are far less likely to use the name of the person and they're also less likely to say what the crime is instead of murder they might say hurt instead of steal they might say take instead of stabbed they might say hurt so we soften the severity of things and in in some cases which you might be familiar with instead of monica lewinsky you might hear that woman instead of sex you might hear sexual relations so we tend to do this when the statement is deceptive and that's something that we just need to keep an eye out for and like greg said at the beginning we're looking for clusters of these and we're looking for changes from normal behavior and while there's no behavior for deception change can very much show us deception and clusters of these things can can show us deception and i think that we're starting to see that unusual a misunderstanding of social behavior is par for the course for this person to begin with it's a misunderstood or or a failure to understand normal social behavior it's just a little bit a little bit dialed in the wrong direction with a lot of this stuff just in how she responds how she speaks how she does fake confusion uh in in a couple of these later videos that's all i got yeah so what i've got is if you go watch her i think you're dead on mark she's got narcissism traits here you can't miss it she aggrandizes everything's larger than life go listen how she describes your house and everything else it was the taj mahal anything she says is over the top peop all narcissists because they're trying to fill in for that insecurity are going to overdo everything interesting for her here i had the same yeses great she gave us a baseline and then failed it right afterward and chase you're hitting on the baseline nothing we do is magical what we're doing is looking and saying if you always scratch your nose on the right you scratch your nose and left why that's what we do is why we're in the y business she does something very interesting in this place she always pays attention but the minute pierce says 160 he's using a great interrogator trick he's slowly releasing information to see her response and what does she do she changes her body language she tilts in she has that fake concern and she's trying to fish out is 160 calls something new they've found or is this the old stuff and the minute he says oh after his death she's like yeah and her face lights up and her brow rises and she goes yeah the other interesting piece she does here for me is she doesn't do this anywhere else in the video there are two or three places she doesn't illustrate at all watch her hands are down mark i was thinking either she's in the grotesque plane to use your methodology or she's handcuffed she's not handcuffed so her hands are here women typically don't use their hands down here around their waist when they're talking to you they typically are moving their hands more now remember it's a bell curve but she as a person anytime she's told us a story has not used her hands and then suddenly he pulled away from me that means something in this story and we probably want to poke and find out what i think if we were to dig in if i were interrogating her i'd say what happened and the last one i'll give you and this is a piece of that just body language it may may not mean anything but the minute she realizes that it's 160 her lips sinks back in that we all know means she needs reassurance and so that's a great indicator she's like oh i i think i'm in dangerous ground here this is a good one this is probably going to be one of more telling ones we find aside from the 911 calls that's what i got right very good were you always completely faithful to larry yes there was a suggestion yes that you're aware of that there was a man at a a called david you made 160 phone calls between each other over after larry's death right after larry's death a few weeks yeah i mean that's a lot of phone calls with another man was he somebody you had seen prior to larry's death he was somebody that i met in a.a he was a very nice man there was never anything romantic or sexual between us and right after larry was killed he really stepped up and held me up i called him so much that it actually drove him crazy and he had to pull away from me as a friend and not be able to really help me as much as he wanted to in the beginning everybody good yeah i'll get this move on the police found in your car a bag that had the gun that was used to kill larry now obviously if you're the police you'll be thinking well what's it doing in your car i do not know how that firearm ended up in my vehicle you know when they found that firearm they found it with no deal rebecca rebecca you can see why the police are thinking this is all a bit odd why would anybody break in kill somebody and then actually leave the gun that they used none of this makes much sense i felt the same way that there was no way to explain some of this and that it did look peculiar to say the very least but i had absolutely no gunshot residue on me and i was tested that night in every aspect that i could possibly be they took my clothes my hair skin scrapings they stripped me bare gunshot residue is not an easy thing to escape if you have fired a firearm and if you even walk into a room after something has been fired you're still going to get that on your skin and on your clothes they found none of that all right greg what do you got yeah i'll just start with the end okay if you are going to get gunshot residue on you when you go into the room even if you did weren't there when it was fired why didn't you have any on you did you pay somebody to do this would be my first question right there or did you study this enough to figure out how to take it off you that's logic that is so skewed this is more of that challenging and trying to get to reasonable doubt this is the way you present evidence in court this is not i didn't kill the guy this is not that kind of way um she's back to this campaign of reasonable doubt and she uses that language again i do not know how that firearm got into my vehicle i mean i'm an army guy i call things vehicle because that's what we called in my whole life and i might call a weapon a weapon but firearm i wouldn't call it those are weird things she's listening with fake concern and then she's negotiating if you watch she's negotiating that minefield constantly down left and then absolutely no gsr absolutely no gun shot residue you see her eye block at that point she's still not illustrating when she's talking about being strip searched trust me i've searched a lot of people it's not a pleasant experience i guarantee you none of them just sat there and said and then they took my clothes and they did this they're emotional about it they're moving there you can see their face change because it's a is a visceral experience to get searched i don't see any of that here this is more legalese more presentation and reasonable doubt questioning um scott what do you got all right she doesn't use any contractions here she's using the the classic thing you teach again like chase always goes with day one the second thing they teach you is you let you you listen for contractions and when you when they don't contract and she says uh where is it i do not know where the gun came from i do not know how that firearm ended up in my vehicle again like you were saying greg distancing yourself from it she would say i don't know how that got in there like chase was saying i don't know who put that in there this is this is it's so bad and then uh she says it looked peculiar to say the least you think you think that's peculiar yeah that that that's no you in this situation you're gonna um it's just it's such a it's such a mess she can't get a hold of it so uh the least you can say in this situation is listen uh what i would say is listen man somebody set me up you gotta help me get somebody in here help listen to me listen to me somebody sent me when somebody says they found this stuff in your car somebody set me up i didn't do it she doesn't even go down that road she doesn't even hint at that road she doesn't say it wasn't me i don't know what happened i didn't do it i'm telling you there's no that fast talking that that even though it's it's years later there's there's none of that that says i didn't do it i need some help here if anybody watching this can help me please do whatever it is to help me get out here i've been set up that's what you would hear from her in this place in this situation then when she she goes on to explain there was no dna or gun powder residue all that and she says um when you walk into the room you'll get gun you'll get you know the residue on you if you just walk in the room that's true if you're standing there maybe and you walk through it like those guys always the guy on queer album straight from the straight guy whatever it was where he'd spray and then walk through it it's something like that when you get on your clothes i have gone to the range and then gone to the airport later that afternoon wearing the same shoes and the same pants that i wore at the range now if you don't get gun residue on your shoes and your pants at a gun range everybody around you shooting something's up and you don't get rid of it because when i went to the airport i get that thing where you stand like this and they do the x-ray and they blow the wind through to make sure there are no no explosive particles on you or anything nothing i i didn't think about until i walked in there i was like oh no i'm gonna be here all day they're gonna pull me out here and talk and somebody i know is gonna show up and go so what's going on man what are you doing so remember that time you told me yeah exactly so i i think she's i don't know where she's getting that information maybe they told her that before they gave her that test or whatever and as the bait question it would be any reason there would be any residue on your clothes or anything because we're going to go through and they probably didn't do that to her just trying to scare her you know as trying to get her to throw up that information for him that's what i think is happening and we don't see any illustrators here either nothing she's being very guarded with what she's saying she's sort of locked down and she's talking the only thing we're seeing is mostly head movements and again we're seeing just a hint of that thing coming on like mark was talking about that that aggressive behavior where you get that that head up and the part that chase is talking about when you're coming hey man let's do this some of that stuff we're starting to see and it gets heavier as we go along but she's starting to get into that as she starts getting in a little deeper into her so that's what i got mark what do you got yep so i concur with what we see there you know uh you go the guns mentioned you get lip lick you get uh distancing you get i aversion around that what i really love about this because you know now i'm starting to see a personality here i'm getting a little bit worried so now i want to know how intelligent is this person because if they're intelligent then you know we're all in trouble so and and and i'm seeing some intelligence now from my point of view when i talk about intelligence what i'm talking about is the ability to take something and manipulate it and turn it into something else intelligence isn't just like understanding the data it's being able to take the data and turn it into something usable she does this brilliantly with with peers here where he he goes um you know this this makes no sense what he's talking about when he says this makes no sense is he's saying your story makes no sense the idea that you wouldn't have known this gun it would just end up in your car it makes no sense she's brilliant she says yeah exactly it makes no sense and then she starts to talk about it makes no sense that the gun would show up and well he's saying exactly the opposite of that but what she's done is a simple uh repetition play of words there uh you know we see intelligent use of language here which means uh consciously and unconsciously she's pretty smart which again if we do have a militant narcissist here that can be a lot of trouble if you've got a really smart one going on because they'll be able to plan and be kind of devious around you and you might be in trouble so uh intelligence there yeah and she really does know a little too much about gun residue for my money seems to me like you were saying there greg seems like she's been on the internet around that one it knows a little bit too much there yeah that's what i got uh who we got left chase just me yeah so i think we're we're seeing some masterful interviewing here where pierce didn't ask her a question pierce used a statement and specifically what he uses called a provocative statement and this is part of elicitation to where if i want to discover something sensitive the more sensitive the information is that i need as an interrogator the less questions i should be asking so if i go into a grocery store i want to find out how much a person in the produce department is making i'm better off using a statement than a question because here in westernized countries money is taboo to talk about so if i went up to this person and i said yeah i heard i just read online that you guys got bumped up to 21.75 an hour that's fantastic and they turn around and say no we only make 17. i just got the income because they you know i triggered some need the natural human need to correct the record but that's a provocative statement i made a statement that caused the person to respond that's what pierce is doing here he also masterfully uses her name as if a parent were speaking to her and it is instantaneously effective you can even see it in her eyes she stops talking like like a child in school who's being reprimanded but really quickly ask yourself if you're watching this video right now you wake up tomorrow and there's a giant brick laying on your kitchen floor and the windows broken the police police come by and start questioning about it are you more likely to say i have no idea how that brick got to that part of the floor or how that brick got in here or are you more likely to say i have no idea who threw the brick through the window we're more concerned if there's something that happened that doesn't make sense we're concerned with who not how we know how it was probably a human there's not a raccoon going out there slinging bricks through through the window it's the who we're concerned with the perpetrator and we're going to see this again if someone you like is someone you're living with is hurt we're concerned with who we really really want to know who secondarily we want to know how and again i'm just going to hammer this really quick 10 seconds a more this is called a non-contracted denial and you'll see it again in such statements as i did not have sexual relations with that woman just to bring that up again gives you more distance to the answer excellent all right police found in your car a bag that had the gun that was used to kill larry now obviously if you're the police you'll be thinking well what's it doing in your car i do not know how that firearm ended up in my vehicle you know when they found that firearm they found it with no deal rebecca rebecca you can see why the police are thinking this is all a bit odd why would anybody break in kill somebody and then actually leave the gun that they used none of this makes much sense i felt the same way that there was no way to explain some of this and that it did look peculiar to say the very least but i had absolutely no gunshot residue on me and i was tested that night in every aspect that i could possibly be they took my clothes my hair skin scrapings they strip me bare gunshot residue is not an easy thing to escape if you have fired a firearm and if you even walk into a room after something has been fired you're still going to get that on your skin and on your clothes and they found none of that we're good i think my husband's been shot my house has been burglarized i just walked in i don't know i didn't pulse on him i just came in from the gym all right greg you want to go first yeah i'd love to go first on this one so i can we cover this one in the true crime workshop at truecrimeworkshop.com at thetruecrimeworkshop.com this is a great example of a person trying to tell a story when they call 9-1-1 i'm not going to i'm not going to spill my candy here and just go on and on and on but when a person calls 9-1-1 they want help they're trying to solve a problem they're not starting their alibi she's starting her alibis she's starting to tell a story listen to the consistency people are panicked i'll say this i once had a really bad horse accident my wife could barely finish the call to get a helicopter here to pick me up and in fact she she her native language is greek and she was shifting back and forth in languages and this is not a panicked woman it's not in her nature when you're calling for somebody you love you're certainly going to be even more panicked because you're more engaged listen to the story she's going to tell you a story in this and it's going to sound outlandish then go listen to a real call where somebody's calling for help for someone they love and listen to the effect of fight or flight on their brain as they turn into a cat they respond they answer questions they ask for help they ask for help they ask for help they ask for help they don't tell you what color shoes they're wearing or what they were doing before they found them that's storytelling um mark what do you get yeah so this is this is kind of like burying the lead it's like you know why not just open with look uh before i ask for help i'd just like you to know just came in from the gym uh like because you know that might be some vital information that you need and the responder would go oh thank you for telling me that because what you want to do is get some of that gym equipment and it's like no like nobody needs to know that you've just come in from the gym well yeah you might want them to know if you wanted to lay the alibi down on tape right from moment one and and again this for me kind of signals something of the intelligence going on here the forethought that might be going into this that somebody might go you know what if i make a first responder call maybe lay down my alibi right from moment one there is no logical reason why you need to say that you've come in from the gym i can't think of a psychological one either where it would be resonant that you came and your psyche your unconscious would bring up that you like you've just come in from the the gym it's just plain odd and uh and and a huge red flag i'll leave it at that chase what do you got yeah so you guys you guys kind of covered it but just as a as a very softened example if you get into a car accident let's say a guy slams on his brakes or you know a guy sideswipes you then you pull over he pulls over in front of you and then the moment you put your car in the park he takes off and you're like well crap i gotta call the police now so you call the police and they say hey 9-1-1 now you need some help not a whole lot but you need some help you're not going to say hey we just went to walmart i got six heads of lettuce because i got a big party tomorrow but we were driving down the freeway and somebody sideswiped me it's not gonna happen we're not gonna just we're not gonna do that we're gonna ask for help because that's you know we pay our taxes for that we need we need help perfect and it was a as a train wreck i'll pass it to you scott i got two big things here number one and greg talks about this in the true crime workshop is she projects on to the and people will do this they'll project on to the person you're talking to that she believes this person she's talking to her like she's a cop a lot of dispatchers are police officers not all of them you know but what this one's in the impression she's talking to the police call the cops and that's when you call when you call get a dispatcher and she's the one that takes the information or he's the one and they get somebody to you usually two will do that depending on how important the situation is and they get the person to you so she's setting this up like she's actually talking to the police like her first interaction with the police which this is not her first interaction with the police also when when the first thing again like mark was saying the first thing out of her mouth and and everybody as well the first thing out of her mouth should have been help i need some help get somebody over here right now there and they're going to be where are you that's going to be that's going to be the question they ask your job at this point is to give some information answer questions pertinent answers to questions to help get that situation take care of and get the help you need because you don't call unless something's wrong at that point now when she calls she's talking fast and she's all upset but she talks so clearly you can you can understand every word she says most of the time that when they pick up the phone when the dispatcher answers the the call help them down you see here there's this is happening there's not you don't know what you're going to say and like greg was saying his wife was talking in greek sometimes because that's when that's part of her old language her brain went to that reactive mode i've got to give you information i've got to give you i was going to see uh i was going to atlanta i was going to see greg and on the way down there i'm driving by this um as i saw some smoke coming out from one of the exits and there's a fireworks place there and next to the fireworks place i think it had a gas station and something else and i was going by i saw that was where the smoke was coming from and the top of this place was blowing fire out of the top of it it was hot but there were people out front walking around and stuff so i hollered over at my phone i said as i'm driving along i looked at the the closest mile marker the first one i saw and i had my phone i yelled to i'm not going to say it loud siri just wait a minute because over two years doesn't answer and i said call 911. and so when the lady answered the phone when the dispatcher answered i said there's a fire an exit whatever it is i just passed and i rem that's what it sounded like to me but out she said what and i thought i was being very clear but apparently i'd say because and it's hot and i said it's hot well of course it'd be hot because there's a fire you know but if i'd been cool and said i just passed exit 148 there's a fire on top of the building there next to the fireworks place i'm not sure what the building is but that's where the fire that's what it would sound like what she's saying everything she said was clear everything she said was clean and you could understand all of it in a situation where when your adrenaline kicks in and that your brain goes into what greg calls the cat mode it's just you're gonna start just puking out that information get out as fast as you can and you're not going to talk right even though you might be a person who thinks you're cool most of the time you're not going to it's not going to happen especially if it's somebody you love you're you're in love with and you've got this connection your person on the planet and they're laying their blood everywhere you're not you're not going to be thinking clean or clear greg let me add one comment go back to the first video and listen to what she says there was more blood than i have ever seen pay attention in these 911 calls does anybody hear her talking about blood wait throughout this video these clips were playing listen for her to talk about blood the first time you see someone shot and there's a lot of blood it's a lot of blood especially if you've been shot five times and it leaves an impression for me if that was the number one thing that she noticed there's more blood than she's ever seen i would expect that to come up in a frantic 9-1-1 call just do the police found in your car a bag that had the gun that was used to kill larry now obviously if you're the police you'll be thinking well what's it doing in your car i do not know how that firearm ended up in my vehicle you know when they found that firearm they found it with no deal rebecca rebecca you can see why the police are thinking this is all a bit odd why would anybody break in kill somebody and then actually leave the gun that they used none of this makes much sense i felt the same way that there was no way to explain some of this and that it did look peculiar to say the very least but i had absolutely no gunshot residue on me and i was tested that night in every aspect that i could possibly be they took my clothes my hair skin scrapings they stripped me bare gunshot residue is not an easy thing to escape if you have fired a firearm and if you even walk into a room after something has been fired you're still going to get that on your skin and on your clothes they found none of that okay we're good i've been playing in the middle of the floor and he's not moving i don't know if he's even alive in the house it's been random all right mark what do you got yeah so i'm gonna go straight for the hot spot on this which is ransacked and uh you know maybe somebody else will want to talk about what a kind of odd word that is but i'm just gonna go for the inflection on it and and it has a cultural significance the way that said to me maybe it's just me but maybe other people remember wacky races and in wacky races there's a character called penelope pitstop who used to be always uh be uh have the hooded claw who would be chasing her and and she would kind of cry out hey help help and and there was a an inflection in her voice that uh that that is is become synonymous i believe with a a heroine in distress a woman in distress and i truly think that's what she's trying to get in the word ransack is is the music that we've now become culturally used to of this is what a woman in distress sounds like it's literally a caricature of of that it's it's extraordinary uh but but but uh you know google uh wacky races or landmark do it again hey help hell it's i used to love that show the the anthill mob oh yeah yeah big bastard came out after the bananas after the banana splits loved it yeah come on after the banana splits after the banana splits yeah what a show what a great show anyway i'll i'll leave it at that uh scott what do you got all right i'll keep my mind's gonna be simple and quick again she's talking too too quickly and too clearly to be talking that fast and the details ah they're magnificent she starts that's where she starts getting to even almost minutia of what's going on here then when she says ransacked i think i heard ransacked like season two of colombo when somebody said the house has been ransacked this nobody talks that way nobody talks the way this woman's talking a lot of time that's i'll i'll leave it there chase what do you got yeah it definitely did sound like uh penelope pistol shots yeah that's pit stop developing pit stop showing your age we can call her penelope pistol shots i think this is the one of the fakest 9-1-1 calls i've ever analyzed i get paid to analyze 911 calls and this is the fakest i've ever seen you'd do this one for free wouldn't you i wouldn't call this the best liar but i would call this the best case study for sure that i've seen in a long time i'm just going to leave it the all of the concern 100 of her concern throughout the call was about her plight her misery her bad experiences her loss her suffering feel pity for me nothing about the husband come save my husband because i love him it was all about her experience i think that was telling and when we get when we get into the dissociation part and when a person is capable of that type of dissociation even though they know that they did something there is a direct tie between childhood abuse and then that person's ability to get into that dissociative state and later narcissism there's some fantastic research on this there's dozens of papers on this but the best one i think is written by a doctor named elizabeth howell i forget the university but i think that's what we're seeing here in a fly in my face some kind of i think it's purdue kevin williams that might have been william's little brother oh that i'll leave it at that greg yeah not a whole lot to add i hear my house has been ransacked the my hear those first-person pronouns again you know when you're called to tell someone your husband's been shot your house being ransacked is probably not part of it but it is part of her narrative about a burglary and someone took things from if you go listen to the story someone came in her house went upstairs took things took drugs selective drugs uh put things in the floor took the firearm from a hidden place came down shot him went out put it in her car i mean it's just it's a narrative that she's trying to build so my house has been ransacked the word that none of us would ever use but nothing about him nothing about him nothing about blood again he's been shot how do you know he's been shot well there's a lot of blood none of that there's not hysteria there's not real hysteria mark you probably as an acting coach would go oh yeah yeah can we can we take that again can we can we do that again just horrible acting just trying to get her story out and she's been believed a lot that's all that engagement with her face and that stuff that she's doing is what's worked for her in the past little kids who get swatted when they lie don't keep lying little kids who get away with things learn how to do the facial movement that works for them and it etches and continually builds on that structure and you can see it in her face all these things she's doing her really i can't believe you don't believe me mom dad whatever and it's all there this is all showing exactly what she typically does and she's telling that story and that kind of hysterical thing she's doing is probably what it's working for in the past in some other case so no surprises that's all i got well i've been playing in the middle of the floor and he's not moving i don't know if he's even alive and it hasn't been randomly all right we're good they believe there was no evidence that you could have checked his pulse in the way that you said because there was no disruption to the pool of blood and there was no evidence of any blood on you whatsoever what's your response to that i did try to check his pulse twice and i stand by that but uh rebecca how do you explain that there wasn't a tiny dna fragment of evidence of his blood on you they found nothing on me how is all that possible there was no blood on me that's how it was um i have no way to explain this i'll go first on this one um here we're seeing that that again her head is back she's got that throat exposed and she's coming forward the chest and that aggressive gesture that we talked about earlier and with that attitude oh really bring it on let's do let's do this one that whole redneck attitude toward that and then she goes back going back to that 30 minute window that we talked about at the very beginning she didn't have any blood on her because she cleaned it all off she wasn't smart enough to know that there should if she touched him and in this situation with all that blood there should be something on her some other shoes something on her pants something on her hands especially if you check for his pulse later she says she checked his neck but still there's going to be but i think that was later because on the on the phone call she says i i don't think it's i think it comes later i checked for a pulse i didn't feel anything that would be that's the reason she would have blood on her and not only she that she would touch it it would be somewhere else she doesn't have a speck of blood on her nothing that's because she didn't know that she should have a little bit of blood on her in a situation like that you're going to have something on you when it comes to that um same thing with in that window is when she cleaned out her fingerprints they didn't find fingerprints didn't find anything nobody's fingerprints on the gun nobody's dna on the gun so as the person breaks in and they're gonna clean everything and then put it in her car come on man no that's this is he's talking about things that would never ever ever happen never the worst crime writer in the world wouldn't write that there's this wouldn't wouldn't write the way she's it's it's laid out to be it's just it's just an impossibility so that's what that's why there's no blood or anything on there and she's being aggressive because she has to fight for that if she's got any chance for parole she's got any chance of coming out there without spending the rest of her life in prison that's one of the things she's got to fight for so that's what i i got there chase what do you got yeah i think initially we see a failure to answer the question at all and it starts with an explanation of evidence the the preponderance of evidence which is deceptive it's a tiny little brick in the deception wall that we're building here for this and she says something here that i think is very telling and she says i'll stand and i stand by that i don't know anybody so if you found a if there was a pinata on the hood of your car tomorrow when you woke up and somebody questioned you about it you're not going to say i'm not sure how it got there and i stand by that i stand by that we say stand by that for opinions or beliefs but not facts not things that are relevant the wall behind me is gray and i stand by that i stand by that statement it doesn't work like that and scott covered the chin for us here but pierce is talking about blood here and she cannot help but see that as a positive thing for her she actually brightens up a little bit as if pierce is offering up there was nothing on you whatsoever and she she says that's correct yes you're right so she starts jumping on this and i think has to backpedal because she realizes this is a different conversation a different social setting in in this interview here with pierce and that's all i've got extra greg yeah so she didn't say they didn't find any blood on me so they found nothing on me here's her credible evidence thing again more importantly so now i'm going to give you an interrogation lesson right here is where i would lean into her when she said they found nothing on me i'd say wow you you had your stuff together and i would then start to do kind of a peony up about yeah you're telling the truth and and then i would start criticizing and needling her story because narcissists can't let you needle them once they think you like them then you turn on them and you start needling them they'll correct you every time so an approach will work wonderful wonderfully here pride and you go up you're beautiful you're smart you're fast you did all the right things then you turn around and start criticizing it's a hell of an orchestration and it they always fall for it she's over nothing nothing she could have said you're right you're right if if i were being accused of killing somebody and i'd not done it and you said hey then finding blood of course not that's it move on they found nothing nothing well then you wonder why do you need a story that says you're in the gym so that when you're in your workout clothes after you got rid of the other stuff ta-da so i'm not saying that's what happened but when i start seeing her challenge evidence scientific you'll keep hearing her do that is if she's a criminal a criminologist or something she's starting to do that courtroom approach that she wishes somebody had done and going back and saying beyond the shadow of a doubt it's the important thing mark what do you got yep so um and i stand by that they found nothing we see that arrogance come along really really clear what is that arrogance about well in my experience you know and i think greg was speaking about that to really trigger a narcissist you want to question their humanity you want to question their character or you want to question their whole reality the facts of things and once you start doing that they get on the whole pretty upset and they're gonna come at you in some way or they'll just disappear they'll go off in a in a in a bit of a strop with you and won't want to hang around with you i think that's what pierce does here uh he does question her humanity he questions her character and he questions the whole reality of it and she simply goes yeah i'm up for that fight because she has a personality whereby she will not accept the facts the science anything that anybody else presents the world has to be her way or no way at all i'll leave it at that they believe there was no evidence that you could have checked his pulse in the way that you said because there was no disruption to the pool of blood and there was no evidence of any blood on you whatsoever what's your response to that i did try to check his pulse twice and i stand by that but uh rebecca how do you explain that there wasn't a tiny dna fragment of evidence of his blood on you they found nothing on me how is all that possible there was no blood on me that's how it was um i have no way to explain this believed and they had expert opinion on this that your behavior in that call was very odd to put it mildly i don't agree with that and i didn't agree with the prosecution said that that they felt that it was suspect or that they got a specialist you know none of that has been scientifically proven i don't agree um i was hysterical when i made that phone call i don't really remember what i did or didn't say but i do remember wanting to hurry up and get somebody to his aid all right greg what do you got yeah i won't cover a whole lot on here because there's not a ton but there's plenty uh she's challenging expertise to the witnesses i don't agree so what of course you don't agree who cares what what validity does that have there's no argument here there's no fact it's just i don't agree well good i don't agree that i should be you know i just have to pay income taxes doesn't change anything and that's her argument and she raises her brow a couple of times in there but she looks down her nose when she says i don't agree as if she's condemning the system that's it this is just fits more of her narcissistic personality uh chase what do you got why why not agree that it was a thought what's what's criminal about an odd phone call of course it was odd my husband had just been killed do you think i'm going to act normal did you expect a normal call that's something you might hear an innocent person say yeah it was odd do you think the situation was normal at the house right then it wasn't and she says i wanted to get someone to his aide in this video i want to get someone to his aid which i think is extremely unusual not to help him not to save him not to save his life and definitely not mentioning his name and it's all about her plight and her suffering and not about his scott yeah i think we're seeing here is chaff and redirect to to use greg's words she throws out after he says that she just throws out a bunch of stuff and throwing stuff out everywhere like out of the back of a plane all those little flares that come out so the missiles heading up toward it go chase those instead of the plane that's what's going on there and again and like you just said chase who talks like that nobody taught i don't know anybody that sounds like a robot or a moon purse somebody lives on the moon you know i was getting someone to his aid nobody that's that's so rehearsed and she's so ready for that because again i believe she knows this is what she's got that she messed up in the call and she's gone through it with her lawyer with their attorney and they've gone over the things that were the problems that need to be corrected in other words and that's what she's doing here she's correcting that i was so confused i don't know what's going on i just needed somebody to get him some aid or to get him some help she doesn't say get him some help like you were saying get him some i don't think i've ever heard anybody say that i mean you have to write that you have to sit there and think about it and think if i was going to write what was going to happen then an analytical fashion i would want to get aid to this person as you're explaining and teaching that what needs to be done that's what you would say you want to do as quick as you can to make it in this phone call to get aid to the person who needs it you could say that grandiose language again yeah yeah it's just it's just too big then we see um and she sounds almost bored as she's doing this she said it and thought it so many times i don't think she said it so many times i think she's thought it a lot and she's rehearsed it uh before she said it what it sounds like in here is a lot different than what it sounds like coming out here that's all i've got on that mark what do you got uh yeah so she doesn't agree with the beliefs the expert opinion the prosecution specialists none of that so basically she doesn't agree with any of the structures that are being put forward to her she's putting herself outside of this of the social structures that are going on and you can probably imagine the personality type that that isn't really part of general society they don't agree with any way that that's that's going on they've got their own rules their own laws their own way that they do things and and and the way the universe functions um so she's not accepting of any other points of view there and and i think piers has got a really riled now and i think that because you're starting to see those eyes really widen and those bottom lids drop so you're seeing more whites of eyes down the bottom there um which again to chase's point i think starts to indicate a kind of a dislocation from the reality that others might be in she's really setting herself aside at a emotional uh you know peak at that point from where piers is and also setting herself aside on a societal level and the way that things function you know for my money she's she's in a very very different place than most other people would be in that situation uh i'll leave it at that believed and they had expert opinion on this that your behavior in that call was very odd to put it mildly i don't agree with that and i didn't agree with the prosecution said that that they felt that it was suspect or that they got a specialist you know none of that has been scientifically proven i don't agree um i was hysterical when i made that phone call i don't really remember what i did or didn't say but i do remember wanting to hurry up and get somebody to his aid okay that's great i love each other this man is my life i understand him i can't live without him he loves me and i love him and this cannot be happening greg what do you got yeah this one doesn't take a whole lot of explanation this is the primary reason i chose her to use in our true crime workshop the true crime workshop course because this is absolutely silly when i looked at it i just went that's not what people say you may say i love him please help him you don't go into i love him he loved me his eyes were blue he wore a long black jacket the first day i met him come on guys this is a storytelling exercise at this point and i agree with you from earlier she's sat in the back room and thought of this and she's waiting for she even pauses at one point when the woman asks it's like she's waiting for her to say something and then she pokes in the next piece now let me also say that when someone is panicked there is no normal so don't hear what we're saying is that when someone calls 9-1-1 there's a formula for how they respond i did a really real world one not long ago where a woman calls and says murder shot i i don't know and that's about what the call is so it there's no normal there's nothing normal about this it's adrenaline your brain is going to function the way your brain functions but you're going to go out of thinking brain and cognitive brain and all these long elaborate sentences and ideas of grandiosity to very simple structure and trying to get your point across and i'll leave this with i usually say the more complex the sentence structure is the less likely it's true and from here i'll hand it yeah so um so i think what happens here is we get a tragic love story i think that's what's trying to be projected here is is that um the the dispatcher or in her view the police and maybe she does know very well that she's been recorded right now and this will get played back but the narrative here is is this is a tragic love story and and hopefully that will blind you as to what is obviously going on here um and i think also we we get a sense from the dispatcher there that these are not the details the dispatcher is looking for because the dispatch is going okay ma'am like okay can we like could i have your address i think she's probably looking for like what's your address can we can we get some some people to you this is not the information that you should be giving at this point that is expected and it is beautifully tied up in a kind of a romeo and juliet uh story here uh i'll leave it at that um who've we got next scott yeah i'll go uh mine's gonna be super short we're seeing the same hearing the same thing we heard before really fast really confused sounding and everything's clear as a bell you can hear every word she's saying because she's been ready she's had half an hour to get fired up and then send this thing in right before she's all right after she's cleaned everything up she's good to go she's changed clothes she's gotten into her gym clothes and she's good to go so that's what we're hearing and i think this was she probably added this on to the end this is toward the end of the call she started adding these things in as it goes along because she thought i've got to make it look like this i don't think she rehearsed what she was going to say but she got fired herself up to be okay and be in love with nothing this is what i would say this is why people say she thinks this is what people say when they call 9-1-1 so that's what we're hearing really simple uh chase what do you got aside from what everybody else has said we're also seeing a continuance of the entire call is about what's happening to her not i need help it's look at what's happening to me and one more thing why isn't she worried about somebody else in the house someone hiding in a closet someone still being there some kind of personal security the maslow's hierarchy of needs would suggest that that safety might need to come first before the social or love needs of someone else there she's also worried about is there someone else here still here at the house so we're it's a tendency here we're gonna see this in a few minutes to look away at this is everything that's going on with me here's what's going on and anything else doesn't exist there's no perpetrators to worry about they're all gone there's no nobody put this thing in my car i don't know how it got there but we don't talk about those people there's nothing to worry about as far as perpetrators these are just events not things that humans did anybody notice no blood not once here we are in the call we're furthering the call was very important to her in her first encounter with pierce morgan but no mention of blood i love each other this man is my life i understand him i can't live without him okay he loves me and i love him and this cannot be happening all right we're good mm-hmm here we go i think my husband might be dead maybe hurry maybe he's alive in your videos hey man we have the rescue is responding right now mark you want to go first yeah it's interesting isn't it uh but if you hurry maybe he's alive and you can help him so so so maybe if you don't hurry the death will be your responsibility this is the moving of responsibility to somebody else which again is a classic trait of narcissism it's never their fault it's always somebody else's fault and if there is some way to shift responsibility they will do it and and i think that's what's happening here that's all i've got for you on that scott what do you got i got nothing new it's just we're seeing this say the same thing again everything's really clear everything she's talking really fast trying to sound like she's distressed faking destroy and i agree with chase this is this is the this is the worst one i've ever heard in my life this is so bad i mean that's why it's a great example because it's overdone it's everything so overdone to use for examples in training chase what do you got same worst i've ever heard and i think i think he's dead is a lot different than he's not breathing he's not responding he's not moving and those are the things you typically hear on the 9-1-1 calls agreed if she checked his pulse what would she say no pulse his heart's not beating he's not breathing there's a lot of blood not and it's not just i think he's dead might maybe might those are odd words to use when someone's lying in a puddle of blood and you've checked their pulse and their hearts not beating those are just weird words i mean this feels a lot like i'm i would call it controlled release i'm giving you the pieces of the story as i want you to have them so that i can remember what i said when the police show up that's it i think my husband might be dead if you worry maybe he's alive and you're going to go hey man we have the rescue is responding right now we're good yeah there we go you had a relationship with a man called alfred nolan that's correct you had said to him in the middle of a big fight i'm going to kill you like i killed larry i do want to back up just a little bit and tell you that they found alfred nolan in county jail and he told the homicide detectives that he and i ended up in a domestic obscurity one night and that i said to him i will kill you the same way that i killed larry while i held a knife to his throat none of that is true that incident never took place um he outweighs me and there's no way that physically i could have overpowered him like that and that's not even to mention that my husband was shot he was not stabbed all right greg what do you got yeah i love this one remember i said to look for illustrators another man comes up and her illustrators pick up again it's the only two times you really see illustrators is when she's talking about the man and the first one from the aaa and then this boyfriend to hers then i love the way she immediately becomes a lawyer again and starts to discredit the witness who happens to be her boyfriend or her lover okay well that doesn't do you a whole lot of good in my world the guy that you are saying well they found him in jail this is the guy you were living where they're screwing around with okay that that goes to your character immediately for me domestic obscurity i don't even know what that word means in this case maybe someone else can enlighten me but here she is using that complex language again and then he was shot not stabbed there's no way i could have done this and to add more he was shot not stabbed this is all about undermining any this is about shadow of a doubt if she can create any little in her mind if she can create any little shadow of a doubt then she's innocent she doesn't understand that that's because that's the way the court systems work that's not the way this works and so she's trying to undermine the credibility of the witness and do those other pieces and for the life of me i can't ever imagine saying well just because my best friend murdered somebody and i was hanging out with him afterwards doesn't mean that i'm a murderer well it might that's pretty incriminating when you hang out with the bad guys or you say that the person you were involved with they went and found in jail and he told them that the logic it takes to make that leap is not normal logic and this goes back to the whole thing about it somebody else's fault i didn't do anything wrong i just happened to pick the wrong guy or i happen to live with a man who was killed it's there's something going on in her head that you really want to get into and this is where you would want to go and poke and prod and if you're interrogating her i'd stop right there and say hold on a minute in fact this is a guy you lived with and he's in jail for for what oh oh that speaks volumes and then she would have to start defending and and anne but you can see she's done this so many times that she's got that kind of head whipping thing going on and she thinks she's getting that benefit of a doubt uh mark what do you got yeah so uh domestic obscurity or she seems to say obscurity i think she's trying to say obscurity uh i think it's distancing um rather than saying you know moment of domestic violence you know we were we were arguing and maybe you know getting into something you know pretty heavy uh but also it has some grandiosity to it as well so i think it's not only grandiose but it's but it's distancing as well um yes put trying to point to the credibility of the witness there well they found him in jail you know so that he's automatically trying to discount the credibility of that uh witness now here's what's really important for me um my husband was shot not stabbed so we know that this is this is true i think the evidence and she would admit the evidence points to he was shot not stabbed and you hear this downward intonation so let's just suggest that when she does downward intonation it's the truth so she says that's not that's not true and then she says never took place uh before all of this and um that he he didn't he wouldn't have she wouldn't have the weight to be able to uh to hold him down and again they're all upward inflections i would put any money you like that it's true that he was shot not stabbed and it's a lie that that's not true okay uh to the to those first questions of was there this altercation obscurity whatever whatever it was i think that definitely happened i think she's lying when she says it didn't happen it definitely happened um now here's what i really really love about this uh is the play of words that happens again because it speaks to the intelligence that we have here she plays with the idea of of like that that um you know i would kill kill this person like i killed that one uh pierce is saying um that the outcome would be the same she said the outcome would be the same both would be killed she manipulates that to suggest it would be done in the same manner like that is a beautiful piece of intelligence intelligent observation there to use a grandiose uh word brilliantly brilliantly uh done you know though she doesn't know what obscurity might be your obscurity might be she certainly has some some really clever simple word manipulations that work really well for her um yeah very very skilled and therefore potentially quite dangerous to be around uh who we got next scott if we had have we had you yeah no but yeah oh okay casey go ahead and then i'll go later i'll just say one thing you guys covered all the non-verbals despite the indicators of deception here this is the most truthful denial that she has made throughout the entire video that you've been watching scott what do you got what's that going first [Laughter] uh well let's okay let's talk about this some obscurity that we're talking about uh she says of domestic obscurity she's totally like mark said she's totally blowing this off like it's nothing for someone to call the cops on you for for getting in trouble you're inside and there's something going on it's loud enough for somebody to go hey man we need to push we call the cops then they say yeah i think we should because you'll hear it for a while and then some stuff will happen and they go we need to do something about this because when you shred it exactly there's obscurity next door and so what happens is when when the cops show up they'll say yeah this has been going on for an hour or 30 minutes or something so this isn't something small that happened for you to be loud enough even if they're in a hotel room you know for you to be loud enough to have the cops call it there's a lot going on there a whole lot going on there so the and this this whole part about being obscure it's like when we talk about studies and they say well i heard so and so and so and so the change you go that's just some obscure study from so from whoever it was you know what's his face from the thing or they're like okay i didn't know because you'll hear rumors about studies about something going on in the brain so that's and you just blow it off like it's nothing so obscure study on whatever it was that's the way that's the way she's treating this so i'm gonna mark 100 on that it's it's horse poop you had a relationship with a man called alfred nolan that's correct you had said to him in the middle of a big fight i'm going to kill you like i killed larry i do want to back up just a little bit and tell you that they found alfred nolan in county jail and he told the homicide detectives that he and i ended up in a domestic obscurity one night and that i said to him i will kill you the same way that i killed larry while i held a knife to his throat none of that is true that incident never took place he outweighs me and there's no way that physically i could have overpowered him like that and that's not even to mention that my husband was shot he was not stabbed let's move on there was a fire that completely destroyed your home some of the police believe now that you were trying to make money from the insurance there was no insurance on that home that home was in foreclosure i would not have gained monetarily whatsoever on that that house fire was not i don't believe that anybody set my house on fire i certainly didn't but i was not um i was not in a position to gain anything from it whatsoever and was let go and he questioned me and cleared me chase what do you got [Music] i don't believe that anyone set fire to my home why not why not have some perpetrators we need some villains in this story we need some villains in this novel why not why not give some and this is also her saying i don't believe anyone set fire after arson investigators fire investigators police detectives have investigated this found accelerants they found a part of the house that was burned more than normal when wood burns over 800 degrees it causes something called alligatoring i looked this up this morning but there's all this stuff all this evidence and she says i don't believe anybody did that based on what your degree in arson investigation or i have no idea but when i first started out in interrogation i read a book by john reed and buckley forgot his first name and in this book it's it vehemently espouses that guilty people are unwilling to eliminate people from a suspect pool but they're also unwilling to say that somebody did this for a reason for instance when you ask like mark can you think of any reason somebody would have wanted to hurt greg you'd say no yeah yeah so we don't want to say that anyone did something wrong because that would cast a shadow over ourselves i'll leave the behavior stuff to you mark yeah lovely um okay so i there is something here that i absolutely believe is true she says um there was no insurance and um that it was the house was in foreclosure therefore yes if the house was in foreclosure the the insurance would be null and void and and that she wouldn't have um got anything monetarily from it i think that's true uh insurance null and void because the house was in foreclosure she's spiteful she's not going to allow anybody anybody to get any value out of this she burned the thing down because nobody's going to make any money out of this thing she's lost the house nobody's going to gain it that's what happened here and again it just reinforces look i don't have any certificates on my walls around the psychiatry of this but as greg has said before uh you know all of us here have been around enough characters uh to know often what we're dealing with and what we have here is for sure a malignant narcissist and with a certain amount of intelligence to be able to uh manipulate the way that stories happen it's not quite good enough that she can stay out of out of prison but it's still good enough that she's probably pretty good at telling a story to people and you know getting enough of a relationship to then get them involved with her so that it can all explode again and play itself out uh scott i i got that book chase i was trying to find it pull up go ah i think it's joseph i've got it right here okay okay i'll get away okay dude the recordings if i heard his voice anywhere in this world i would know this guy's voice i mean you've heard it a thousand times that guy that voice has got to just kill her anyway um [Music] this is this is the first time we really see her chin come down and protecting her her throat and that usually you see that when someone is you're telling them that they're busted they're guilty they stood she starts coming down projecting throat and that that's the first time we see it so this as this what she perceives as an attack on her starts happening that's what she starts doing as she's explaining things i think she i don't think she realized this is this is where i think we're the intellectual level we're dealing with i don't think she knew that she wouldn't get any money from burning the house down i don't think she knew it was in foreclosure now i would guess i don't know for sure but since she's been in prison since all this stuff happened the house payments weren't made those and it so went to foreclosure but i think she thought she'd be able to get that money if it burned down while she but maybe she did i'm not sure if that's what happened because i think maybe i saw a picture of her at the house after it burned or while it's burning or something but i don't think she knew that she wasn't going to get any money from it so that's why i think she did that so i think she's or hired somebody to do it um most likely what happened so she's uh that's that's i mark got most everything greg what do you got yeah i'm gonna add a couple of things number one if you ever watch the show big bang theory where sheldon is this kind of nut job guy and he constantly says i'm not insane my mother had me tested she does the same thing well they question me and let me go so i must be innocent well no they were waiting to get you for something else she uses a push pull word anytime someone uses a word that doesn't fit the sentence although it may fit in the sentence it changes the meaning like monetarily i agree with you in this case mark i think she still gained something even if she didn't gain monetarily and i would have said what do you mean monetarily i would have poked on that ego finally i'd say this while it might not be believable to us all that wrenching her face and doing all that stuff she's doing has worked all we are as successful organisms is a repetition of what we've been doing since we were two and when something fails you know there's a whole principle in psychology and mark again i'll say not a psychologist there's a principle in psychology of extinction if you need to reward or punish things it falls off well when you reward something it gets reinforced and reinforced and reinforced so this is work for she knows her clientele she knows to work her room doesn't necessarily mean it will work in our room and it certainly doesn't but she's figured out in her many years of doing this and you saw her with all the makeup and all that kind of thing she had a certain group of people who fell for whatever it was the flutter of the eyelids and the twisting of the head and all that slowing down and talking and using big words and all of that worked for her in her life to get her to as as there's a comedian ron white to get to the scene of the crash that's how she got here that's what i got i said so what'd you find chase joseph buckley yeah i knew it i knew it this is this is actually my original textbook here and i just wanted to read a quick sentence here in honor of greg hartley the core of behavior analysis however is the asking of non-investigative questions that are specifically designed to evoke behavioral responses page 63. beautiful there was a fire that completely destroyed your home some of the police believe now that you were trying to make money from the insurance there was no insurance on that home that home was in foreclosure i would not have gained monetarily whatsoever on that that house fire was not i don't believe that anybody set my house on fire i certainly didn't but i was not um i was not in a position to gain anything from it whatsoever and was let go and he questioned me and cleared me there you have it rebecca fenton and in all her glory in that situation so if you like what we're doing please go ahead and subscribe all right we're good yeah one more in see you guys next time hey help hey help hey help hey help you

Channel: The Behavior Panel

Views: 236,944

Rating: 4.8955936 out of 5

Keywords: piers morgan, true crime, rebecca fenton, killer, female murderers, female killers, crime, homicide, murder, investigation, investigation discovery, homicide case, real crime, cheating husband, body language analysis, lying, body language, how to read body language, psychology, the behavior panel, body language reading, crime documentary, crime news, women killer documentaries, local crime, true crime daily, snapped, murderer, how to read anyone, fbi, behavior, fenton, profiler

Id: 2fgf8oCm5-c

Length: 108min 7sec (6487 seconds)

Published: Thu Dec 17 2020