Menendez Brothers Trial True Crime Body Language (2021)

did you kill your father to get back at him for what you say he did to you when you were a child did you plan out what you were going to say to the police before you call them that night i'm scott rouse i'm a body language expert analyst and i train law enforcement in the military in interrogation and body language and i created the number one online body language course body language tactics with greg hartley mark i'm mark boden i'm an expert in human behavior and body language i help people all over the world to stand out win trust and gain credibility every time they communicate including some of the leaders of the g7 chase hey i'm chase hughes i'm currently in los angeles i'm a body language and persuasion and interrogation expert i train intelligence agencies and the general public in persuasion influence people reading and lie detection craig i'm greg hartley i'm a former army interrogator interrogation instructor resistance to interrogation instructor i've written 10 books on body language and behavior put together this course body language tactics dot com number one course in body language with scott rouse and i spend most of my time on wall street or corporate america all right well today the panelists have spoken again and we're going to talk about the menendez brothers it's the two guys that killed their parents uh lyle and eric and it was a pretty big deal back in the 90s and so that's what we're gonna go we're gonna go over greg you got something you want to add the background so guys we're not going to give you the entire back story there are dozens of hours of these guys testifying different interviews all that what we chose was a handful of clips and what we're after is looking for what we see in the body language in these clips we have kept it very clean and they can get very graphic in their testimony we kept it clean and there's inference but no graphic detail that's the our intent we'll go through this we'll tell you what we see and scott usually say we're you know we're switzerland we're right down the middle these guys have admitted to killing their parents with shotguns with many many many shotgun blasts and said that they were in fear for their lives and that they had a history of sexual abuse and we'll leave it at that and start from there does that work excellent yeah so keep in mind as we go through this oh before we before we go any further go ahead and subscribe if you like what we're doing go ahead and subscribe just hit that little red button down there and it'll hook you up and you'll know we've got another episode coming out all right so as we go through this keep in mind we we know already that these guys rnj are in prison for killing their parents we know that no no question there what we're looking for here is we're trying to decide whether or not they're being honest about the abuse they they um took from their parents what happened there so that's what we're looking at we're not looking at the history of stuff we're not going to say we don't care what happened in the past or whatever we're looking at these specific videos that's it so keep that in mind and like yeah one last thing we'll look at is if they cover in these videos and i think they do whether they were in fear for their life from their parents from that weekend but that's it we're not talking about whether they kill their parents or any of that all right here we go you guys ready yeah yep isn't it true that you killed your parents because you couldn't stand your father's control anymore and you couldn't figure out any other way to kill him except to kill your mother too like dr ozil said no that's not true all right all right mark what do you got yeah so i'm going to pick up on just one thing kind of a little 101 in body language just to get us going you'll see that uh the character here i don't know any of these guys names this is another case of me having no idea what i'm looking at here in terms of the case and any backstory you know i'm just looking what i'm i'm looking at you will know way more than i do about this case for sure but do you see that uh little eyebrow raised there on no that's not true i just want to go into what the eyebrow rays is about first of all why do we have eyebrows the idea of the eyebrow is that when it rains the water collects here and goes down the side here so you don't get water in your eyes and you can still see it would be a terrible thing if every time it rained you were now defenseless with your eyesight because your eyes were flooded with water so it's just to move that water away now what's the other benefit of it well the benefit is you can signal to people at long distance somebody can be a distance away and you can do stuff with those eyebrows from a safe distance to go hey do you recognize me do you know i'm part of your group so this signal here is a social signal of acceptance so here's what i make out of this when he says no that's not true he wants the other person to accept that answer on a social level it's not good enough that it's not true for him he needs everybody else to feel that it's true as well so what does that signal to me it means it's important not only for him but some way he fits in with the group it's important that this idea is is accepted as not true now i don't know enough at this point about the case to go why would that be so important why would it be socially important why why does society need him need to recognize that that he's telling the truth or or or inferring something at the moment i don't know the answer to that but just a little 101 there on body language and scott what do you got all right here's what i'm seeing when and this is all real simple stuff a lot of these there's not a whole lot going on because they're just as greg will tell you they're sort of telling the story as they go along so when he first begins we see that his head when she starts asking the question his head starts coming down and we see it on in almost every one of these these videos we'll look at he just has the same little protocol he follows his head goes down but this time his head kind of goes to the side as it goes inside he's exposing his neck and says you know hey i'm okay but what he's doing is he's exposing the left side of his neck so leaves that right side uh closed up which is where the um jugular vein is that's a vein that's it's sort of the it's where the deoxygenated blood from your brain goes and gets it out pretty quick so we can get some more in there so it's pretty big vein so so he's not doing it on purpose but i think his brain as an animal his body is trying to protect that because he doesn't feel i don't think he feels uh under attack but he's ready for anything i think i think in the the situation he's coming out of as we go along he feels uh if it is an abuse situation for real then he's he's waiting to see what's gonna happen next so no matter what happens he sort of prepares himself i believe that's why his head's coming down he's guarding that jugular vein then we've seen body's bottom lip as and that's an adapter we're going to see throughout this as well and his brother does it when we take a look at his brother eric he'll buy his lip as well he does the and they do it a little bit differently but it's the same adapter every time so i don't know if it's when they were young and their father would get after them one time i was dealing with someone at the entrepreneur center i was the entrepreneur in residence at the entrepreneurial center in nashville from 2011 to 2017 and i would train the new entrepreneurs how to pitch their new ideas concepts or whatever they they were pitching i would teach them how to do it and how to use their body language so they would get funded to help people trust them and believe in them and help fund them and everybody i've i trained from day one till today when i'm still working with entrepreneurs they've all been funded there's a guy i worked with and his and and when he was talking he would use his eyebrows instead of using illustrators with his hands his eyebrows were his illustrators and i actually when this was going on this is years ago i sent greg a video of it and said check this cat out because every time he was doing something he'd say and then we'd do what and his eyebrows were going nuts come to find out i talked to him later on i didn't say hey why do you think you do that after talking to him and listening some information from i found out he was his father was super strict with him and it would make him stand stand straight as they were telling anything would let him move much so as he's moving he starts using his his eyebrows became his illustrators in this case i think what we're seeing is is the same type of thing when there that he doesn't do adapters that show big time he's uncomfortable like somebody might do this or might start pulling their arm these things i think the dad got after him and got rid of those so that's why he and his brother both bite their lip like that that's that's what i'm going back to is is when you're when you're taught or trained or just pounded into you to stop doing things that show people what you're really thinking or your body language which i believe his father did we'll hear him talk about that in a little while that's what happens the the adapters are still there like greg always says you can't hide your body language it'll tell on you every time but that's what that is that little bite thing he's doing greg what do you got yeah someone take it a little bit different direction but ty what you're talking about together that request for approval that social thing we use our forehead to signal each other and mark if your brows cause water to run down the sides mine probably runs down my back with this brow but if you get if you look at a person's brow it's how you signal there's all kinds of ways you can signal with your brow from brow beading to request for approval asking for something to just a quick hey how are you across the room he's using it quickly like a recognition like um okay i think i understand what you're saying and he's trying to connect with her and i agree he's got a little bit of a request for approval when he bites his lip yes it's an adapter and yes it's comforting but i also think it's containing it's a way he's like oh there's something that he if you watch him he's pretty pronounced in his body language there's almost a pregnant pause when she says um is she says something about is that true and he says no that's not true he does a little bite i think he's containing something at the same time and i think it's the way they learn to control where that might not be acceptable i think it is a combination scott of biting because we'll see it again and again and again and it's so it's comforting as an adapter when we say an adapter we mean anything that creates comfort i always say it makes the unknown known or the you know the unfamiliar familiar you see if you put an animal in a cage they'll pace that's how they take control of their environment but that pregnant pause and that bite makes me think he's saying not exactly true true but not exactly true and he's trying to put a finer point on the reason i say that is because it's like he's holding back body language you'll see later his hands are tied but he tightens up like he's not comfortable with confirming exactly what she said that's what i see and we're gonna see more of that from him but i see adapters i see that i see some containment of emotion i see no illustrators really and i see that request for approval so uncomfortable with exactly finer points of this and i think you're going to see him negotiate more about points and i call those small chunkers they're big chunkers and small chunkers and details and the small chunkers are guys who are going to talk about nuance we all know somebody when you ask them what time it is they tell you how a watch is made my guess is when you get this guy down to brass tacks he's one of those guys chase what do you got yeah great points everybody absolutely agree and i think he immediately goes down to an emotional recall with his eyes move down here instantly so i want you to pay attention when they look down and when they look somewhere else as you're watching just as some data points and what what is he trying to recall or think of when you see it move in these different directions because that's going to come up in a minute but if you're an attorney if you're doing a job interview if you're trying to persuade anyone and they start off with their dominant shoulder backwards that's not good so you need to modify the situation say mr menendez can you can you reach up and adjust the microphone just forward a little bit and try to get those shoulders pretty even the dominant shoulder goes back when we want to get into a fighting stance and that's kind of an unconscious thing that we're seeing here is him preparing for that so as an opposing counsel we need to fix that as or do what we can to try to fix that before the conversation starts so his eyebrow flash here is different than other times it lasts a shorter duration it's the shortest of all the durations that you're going to see and this lip retraction plus blink rate goes up to 54. it goes from around a 14 to a 54 here and there's also gesture mismatch when he's nodding at the very end of this video when you see it again you'll see just your mismatch and i think his attorney should have objected to question this question to begin with it's it's not a good uh good thing but the behavioral table of elements score is 21 with 11 being likely deception he's doubled the likelihood of deception on the behavioral table of elements and that's all i got yeah one of the things that i would say is if i were asking him a question i'll try to keep this to a minimum guys but if i were to ask him a question i would poke on him because he wants to say more you can see it isn't it true that you killed your parents because you couldn't stand your father's control anymore and you couldn't figure out any other way to kill him except to kill your mother too like dr ozil said no that's not true all right we're good yep you've indicated in your direct examination that you were uh sexually abused by your father and your mother is that correct i don't think so i didn't use those words well but isn't that the gist of what you were saying that you were the victim of sexual abuse with my father and with my mother i just said what happened and i think it was mutual okay all right greg you want to go first sure i'll take this one um so he is either figurative figuratively or literally sitting on his hands that's coaching not to use your hands because you give away information these guys could afford a good attorney in good preparation don't know who they had i didn't go look into it but i'm sure they had somebody who would help them well hold on not my mother you know you can you can hear him saying well hold on not my mother i did not use those words or words to that effect i don't think so i don't think i use those words this is his personality coming out this is him controlling now guys nothing coming out of these guys mouth is pleasant and anything you want we intentionally clean this up nothing coming out of their mouth is something you'd be going well hold on i want to get the nuance exactly right on unless that's in your dna and it is you can see it there's this personality hold on you can see it hold on and then he goes the small chunk details he even does a posture shift once he's clarified it he straightens up in the in the in the place where he says um i i don't think i use those words well it was but it was with my mother mutual and then he does a nodding and that knotting is not a positive thing it's just affirming that he's cleaned up this thing and then he does an eye lock when it's over you can see his rear aspirations up and you can see he's trying to set the record straight because that's pretty clearly this guy if i if i am expecting truth from him i think that's what you're seeing he's trying to clarify even a messy he could let something pass very casually but he was trying to take away guilt from his mother in this horrible situation if you don't know this and you go look for it you're going to find it's very graphic so be cautious but this is a complex messy story and nothing good about it okay with that scott all right people have been abused when they're little children they become powerful observers and i think that's what we're seeing in this because when something happens they lock right into it and they start watching the person who's asking the question the person who's approaching them and they see things from a childhood to now that it takes forever for people to to get used to seeing and pay attention paying attention to that's why i believe he freezes well every time she starts talking he starts and his head starts going down because he's trying he's preparing to protect himself from whatever it might be because he's freezing to observe and watch everything that's going on and listen in case something's coming at him he's got to figure out to how to say something back i think that's why neither he or eric look alarmed they don't look like they're they don't have that thing of their surprise when somebody's asking them a question that that's a little bit from the left from left field because they're used to it that's why i think their delivery is calm and the demeanor is just calm everything's out even though they're talking about horrific things they just you move right along like there's no big thing happening but again the subtleties are there um you see his head tilt back and forth again a little bit as he's thinking i think this is one of things that let you know something's going on with his internal dialogue where he's thinking like greg was saying he's thinking he's going through things how am i going to word this he's not thinking quote unquote how am i going to word this but he's putting things in place how he's going to deliver at that point um and i think i i think when we see when he's talking about his dad that's when his his shoulder comes forward just a little bit that left shoulder comes a little bit forward as he moves in and then he moves back some when he starts talking about his dad because i think he's in fear of his father he fears his father but i don't think he's afraid of his mother i think he's angry that his mother didn't do some things she should have done she didn't didn't take up for him when she should when she should have had the chance he didn't do that but we see fear in him when that when that starts not as much on his expression but these little subtle things that say he's he's afraid of his father that's what i'm seeing in there anyway but with his mother nothing he's moving forward when he's talking about his mother and not moving forward aggressively his head goes up a little bit as he starts talking about her very very briefly but that's what i'm seeing there um especially when he says it was mutual not that he was trying to protect his mother or anything but i don't think he sees he feels the fear from his mother the same way he feels the the fear from his father two completely different things mark what do you got yeah so remember in the that first little chat we had i was talking about there's something interesting that he tries to get this moment of social approval on this negative idea no not this time in this one uh he's going against a social norm immediately he's reframing the idea of a sexual relationship with parents as um kind of not not abuse now my guess would be in fact my knowledge would be in in every society that i come across the idea of sexual relationships with your immediate family is is what we call to do it's a social norm of going that isn't something that you do he's totally reframing that and so if we put that together with the first video we're going okay i've got somebody here who's going to try and convince me around what i would normally think shouldn't be happening that's kind of okay for it to be happening so it's already got fairly odd for me now why is that hap why is that going on is that because something has been happening in this family that is very unusual and and and we should be convinced that that's kind of okay or is there another motive of he's in some kind of corner and has to say that so as we're going through i'm just interested in unpacking why immediately straight off the bat is he going against some social norms pretty odd behavior and very cool at the moment generally about going around those so against those social norms quite calculated at the moment in my view around going against social norms so interesting uh chase what do you got yep you guys have uh hit all the points that i was going to talk about here but i want you to think about what would the behavior look like or what would a response look like to a person who doesn't define that as abuse so and we're seeing it he's seeing the world through that lens like that is a normal thing he knows that society doesn't think it's normal but he knows that he grew up this way so he views the world through a very different lens much like people who keep tigers it's a completely different deal it's a whole different lens to view the world the only thing i have that you guys didn't mention was there's a flash of anger downward eyebrow movement at the word abuse specifically at the word abuse during the question so that's good to see there that's all i got nice all right hey one one quick note guys this was cross-examination i don't know if we mentioned that this part is yeah you've indicated in your direct examination that you were uh sexually abused by your father and your mother is that correct i don't think so i didn't use those words well but isn't that the gist of what you were saying that you were the victim of sexual abuse um with my father and with my mother i just said what happened and i think it was mutual okay okay good yeah yes please what's the problem what's the problem what's the problem yes what happened we have units around what happened the people that did the shooting okay hold on a second okay we're on our way over there with an ambulance all right that's a long one i'm going to go first on this one um so i'll just hit the fine points on um a lot of flags in this right out of the gate he goes from yes he says yes police can you call 911 i've never heard him go yes please that's the first thing he says he says uh i don't think he sat down and thought out specifically what he's gonna say in this i know he's uh the conversation was probably okay go ahead and call 9-1-1 let's let's get fired up and and make this look like that happen i don't think he thought out what to say i think he thought it would just come to him and it's not really coming to him very well so uh as when he's pausing like that he's creating he's creating that story creating what he's gonna say next so that's a flag that's flag number one for me then another flag is really goes from zero to 100 like that in no time he's from uh and then uh then he starts crying and he gets into this crying like a child thing going it's really high really high pitched which maybe he has to go there to make that happen i don't know but it sounds that just sounds odd to me from from an auditory standpoint it sounds odd then he says another flag which we've all talked about we talked about in the true kind workshop and that and our um membership uh bodybuilding membership.com which this is from we have whole things on this chase has the whole thing on this market has the whole thing greg i was like we all have our little things we go down that marked these off and one of the big ones is uh i wasn't here and then i came home they're telling you what they were doing before this happened nobody asked him that when you call 911 you call up and you go i need help here's why i need help and here's where it is that's what that's the information you want to get out but he's doing what we call he's doing a couple of things um there's a thing called strip that greg and i have in the truth crime workshop and it's uh and it's the abbreviation strip this s is for stanzard t is for transfer r is for romancer a or i is for insulator and p is for prancer and those each one of those sort of breaks down how people approach the the authorities the police officers or the the dispatcher when they're talking to them in this case we're dealing with two things we're dealing with transfer and we're dealing with an insulator the transfer is where you you you'll see somebody talk to your they'll ask the person about us a murder or what happened at the scene and they're just going oh my baby my baby and they they won't they're almost like in a trance because they don't want to talk to the police officer they don't want to give them anything they don't know what they maybe they haven't made the story up yet they're not prepared whatever the reason being they get into that and act like they can't talk they're just too distressed to talk we're hearing that then he had the insulator and that's the person who who insulates himself from the the police officer or the dispatcher as they're talking to him they they can't talk to him because something else is going on you know there if it was a romance or which which is before it was right after that then you have that's when that they're talking to them and they're up in their business or right up in their beds when they're saying oh yeah what do you need i'm here for this here's what happened they give you all these little weird details but in this case he's insulating himself by all the screaming she's having to say what happened what have chests keep asking him you know so that's that's a combination of those two now um the crying in this is childlike i know i said that before but at the end this is this is another flag that tells me this isn't real a little while they're gonna they're gonna this is gonna come up again they're gonna ask him about this or ask his brother about this but i don't think this this part is real i think they they discussed it said okay you go do that and he just wasn't ready for it and that's what sends off flags bells and whistles for me greg what do you got yeah so chase i know you'll cover some of the elements you've got the checklist and we can put that checklist up again but number one when you call there's one reason you call 9-1-1 mark hey help help it's one of those right i gotta get help right now that's what you're doing you don't tell the story and they're telling a story they're saying hey i wasn't home and i'm also going to say okay the crying i'm going to give him benefit of a doubt and say he is if he's been abused his whole life regression's a possibility he might cry like a child this is going to hurt him later on the stand and you'll see him actually cry later and the the defen or the prosecution goes after him and said we saw you crying in the stand we heard you cry in this 9-1-1 call looks like you can cry on demand they go after him for that so it's going to hurt him but there's a handful of things missing i don't hear a call for help i don't hear hey might come help my parents i hear my parents have been killed i don't it's interesting he uses the word killed knowing he killed them too which is not distancing which means they have in their head what they have done if you want to cry just go look in the room they shot their parents like 16 times with a 12 gauge so there's something pretty grisly and unless you're really tough-minded or have seen it that's pretty shocking and you could find a reason to cry pretty easily there's no address didn't hear one address mentioned of course they know where the phone is and they're doing that he's delaying and where scott's talking about this transfer transfer for me the simplest way for you to think of it is i make myself unavailable through emotions or some other method whether it's rocking and i'm you know delusional i'm crazy something like that this long term is going to hurt him i could say he's in regression but and maybe maybe he's crying because he just realizes the horrific thing he just did but it'll come back to haunt him in time chase what do you got yeah you guys hit a lot there and uh i just focus on any 911 call it is story versus crime so if there was a crime uh the the first thing the operator did is the person who shot who shot them are they still in the house and anyone would probably be concerned with that if they didn't do the murder and so we see starting out story versus crime and there's three other huge red flags on the checklist you want to go to our community section take a look at that 9-1-1 call checklist leave those in the comments and i'll find one of you and i'll send you a signed book but there's three other things in there we have those flags that are adding up and that's the 911 call operator it should be checking those things and say hey this guy is a red flag or this guy scored a six on the scale here which is a pretty big deal that's all i got mark yeah so let me give you a little hand about one of the ways that i go about working where out where the red flags might be how to read body language in general i'm just looking for big changes like what i would call significant change now who decides what significant is i do i just think well that's a big difference and there's a massive difference between as scott was saying that uh that yes police at the start which is kind of the way i go hello mark expert in human behavior and body language is very cool and then suddenly scott said it ramps up into uh what the other person on the on the on the line says is hysteria it's hysterical so it goes from very calm to hysterical i would suggest that is significant now what do i do when there's this moment of significant change because what i'm doing there is consciously trying to do what our instinct does which our instinct is just trained to look out for significant change something happens in your peripheral vision significant you'll jump away or your eyes will be drawn towards it significant change in volume happens around you your head will turn check out what it is what i'm doing is looking through this recording and going where is the most significant change and that's it for me going from hello police to hysteria now what does it mean i never know what it means i just think well something's up there and that's what i need to investigate that's what we need to talk about why are we so calm at the start what happened during that that got you hurt so hysterical i want to know why the significant change happens there that's a way of starting to ask people questions so when you see body language when you see non-verbal communication and you see this moment of significant change that's the bit you want to go into you don't know why it's happening you're going to find out from people by just asking questions so significant change that's what i've got for you there hey and mark bowden just defined baseline for you okay that's perfect what's the problem what's the problem what's the problem like me what what happened um okay hey let me talk to eric who is the person that was shot right there mom and dad okay hold on a second okay we're on our way over there with an ambulance excellent did you plan out what you were going to say to the police before you call them that night um over the course of the you know that whole that hour and a half we've talked about it a few times when we decided that we were going to say we're at the movies and then at some point we decided to say that we had left out the back because we figured somebody probably saw me running out of the house or the car leaving or something and um [Music] and then after we started to fall apart and i realized i wasn't going to meet perry um we said we would just say we went to get an id to explain why we didn't meet perry all right chase what do you got it's btoe score the behavioral total developments score is a nine on here so he's very fruitful in in this response for the most part now we see some big gestures with his hands here that we don't see in the other videos he's more illustrative with his body so no matter what training or coaching he had that if he did get trained to sit on his hands or just kind of you know don't use your hands in the interview this goes away because i think he's more comfortable talking about it and it's more truthful so we also see his normal i home or where his eyes usually go for stuff is around our nine o'clock is where we're looking so he's looking that way during truthful stuff maybe i'm gonna i'm gonna take a look later when we ask him different questions and still his dominant shoulder is still back it's still back from the interviewer the opposing counsel that's all i got greg yeah so chase great call out that we his eyes for recall are going to what appears to be his right unless this video is flipped and i think he's sitting to the right side of the judge so his eyes are going to his right interestingly about 90 of people you run into are going to go the opposite direction about 90 they're going to go somewhere in their head when we talk about auditory memory or digital memory your eyes stay somewhere between your brow ridge and your cheekbone mostly and we'll see them go usually to the left in most people but you got to ask questions to find out in his case and in his brother's case oddly enough we're going to see that movement's reversed it's over this way sort of like 10 percent of the population you run into those are not absolutes those are you ask enough questions you figure out where the guy's eyes go but when people are remembering something they have rehearsed practice thought of it's going to go there it's a reason a cover story doesn't work is because if all you do is remind is remember something if you remember song lyrics you'll find your eyes doing that digital drift you're going back to rote memory something you put in your head that way that's the reason we use that it works very well you get a baseline this is recall for him and he does it consistently he goes back there he does a slight request for approval not much but i'm with you chase he bounces up he starts illustrating because he's thinking of something he's going to tell but he tries to lock it down is why i think he has been coached i didn't think in the beginning when i first watched him i thought yeah he's just kind of dead and then i see his hands rise and drop good for him but you can watch him rifling through what they said and what they thought before he actually called 9-1-1 i do believe they probably had a conversation about what should be disclosed and then he says and then after and his eyes are over here doing something for a while my guess is there might have been a little bit of back and forth between him and his brother before they call 9-1-1 a bunch of screaming and yelling a bunch of emotional stuff going on you can see a lot of confusion in his face and a slower answer as he's navigating through what he is remembering so i agree with you i think this is truthful i think this is probably if there's any deception that's that and then after right in there what actually happened i think he's editing the story and he's telling you what he feels is pertinent to the story and what is conducive to what they're going to tell you and you know they have a long-range story they're trying to tell mark what do you get yeah so that gives me a lot of confidence uh chase the number that you gave on that because i looked at that and went seems to me a low blink rate for what's being talked about i would expect i would expect on this subject matter much higher stress seems super low to me so um then it starts to signal to me then you know previously i've heard this hysteria we will hear all kinds of stuff later on in these videos and now i'm getting this sense of have we got somebody here who can move from yes police to a hysterical level we've heard um crying like a child we understand that there may or may not be some abuse that's gone on so now something in my head is telling me have we got somebody who might be able to shift personality to a certain extent have we got somebody who might be fractured enough that there might be you know at least a couple of people showing up here now i don't know the answer to that but i just want to give you know you some idea of how i'm thinking around this because i don't know anything about the case i don't know what's gone on here but i'm starting to go there's something going on it needs to fit in with the social norm when really it doesn't fit in with the social norm and we've got such cold calm calm more than cold calculated accounts of this is it we know that you know parents have been killed is it psychopathy where there is just no feeling at all or has feeling been suppressed and placed in almost a different character a different personality again i don't know but i'm just giving you some insight into how i'm thinking about this uh scott what have you got all right i'm all the time talking about illustrators and it's one of the things that fascinate me watching mark is like if i turn the sound off i probably know exactly what he's talking about as you go through uh these hey scott can i ask a question yeah what are illustrators oh yeah sorry illustrators are the things again if you watch mark that's how the brain your brain emphasizes specific words and phrases like i just did specific words and phrases and like i said earlier with eyebrows and people will say that one over there or that one over there however they're doing it that guy was trained i was telling you about would do it that way and like i'm doing here i'm showing you things and it's where your brain just hits those specific words and phrases that it thinks are important that you think are important that's what illustrators are and those fascinate me in this case we're seeing an incongruency an incongruent uh i guess you'd say incongruent illustrators that's what i usually call them theater congruency jumped out and that's when for example in the oj case when he's when there's a a reporter that asked him did you kill those two people he says no i didn't i couldn't have his hands don't hit on the words his illustrators don't lock up with the words he's saying and we see that here now there's a difference if you say this is what i've noticed and this is what i've been i've said this for a long time when a person starts illustrating and they haven't spoken yet that's one thing that that tells me they're thinking there's inner dialogue because they're getting ready to tell you what's happening there the mark was doing just a couple minutes ago they're getting ready they've they're thinking about it and as they come through it that's when they start illustrating now if they do it after the words and they start talking about those things and they're not congruent with their words as they go along and they last something's up there's an issue there they're either just making stuff up and not not even they're not focusing on what they're doing but they know they're not telling the truth because they're not thinking that that i think it shows the difference in deception and truth in other words there are no absolutes you can't say for sure every time it means that but every time i've seen but someone and their illustrators aren't locking up with what they're saying for years and years and years and years and years i've watched this that's what tells me that there's something not right there so he's going through we're seeing his come out before he talks and they lock up just like a gap between there there's perfect timing between when he illustrates and when he speaks so if you were to move those up then you would see him hit the same time and the other way when they're late they don't do that they don't lock up like that because there's too much jagged stuff going on in there because they're not being uh most of the time they're being deceptive and they're they're thinking about what they did not what they're going to do in other words i hope that makes sense um but he's but again he's calm and relaxed through this lots going on these are big questions but he's still calm and relaxed i think that again that goes back from him being a child and observing watching everything that's happening trying to discern whether or not he's in trouble or something's going to happen to him the next couple minutes um and his inner dialogue it's all the same throughout all these videos and i think we can look at that and say like mark and then and then greg was pointing out that's his baseline he's very calm he doesn't mind thinking for a couple minutes and then but not minutes but a couple of seconds and then delivering i think he's calm and okay with that because it doesn't bother him he's used to doing that taking that time to think so even though he's under a lot of pressure i think he's thinking good at this point so i think he's being honest here did you plan out what you were going to say to the police before you call them that night um over the course of the you know that whole that hour and a half we talked about it a few times when we decided that we were gonna say we're at the movies and then uh at some point we decided to say that we had left out the back because we figured somebody probably saw me running out of the house or the car leaving or something and um [Music] and then after we started to fall apart and i realized i wasn't going to meet perry um [Music] we said we would just say we went to get an id to explain why we didn't meet parity all right here we go but as to this specific phone call when you first made contact with the police did you plan out what you were going to say to them no and i really don't remember exactly what i said other than reading this but i know that i wasn't going to say that we you know we were involved all right mark what do you got yeah just one thing i want to pick up on here which is just how agreeable he's being notice he immediately comes in with right before really the sentence has ever been finished he's being super agreeable throughout this uh i think we saw a similar agreeability with in a jodi arias um interview that we that we looked at so again as i'm going through this and i see this level of agreeability i'm starting to think what might it be about the psychology here that makes him super calm and agreeable in this kind of situation um and you see him agree and then you'll see him kind of sometimes pull back as well so is he teasing is he trying to attract is he is that what's happening there again i don't know the answers to that i'm just kind of going through going what are the pieces of information that i can pick up here but why so agreeable at this point interest me chase what do you got great stuff i totally agree there's a severe lack of emotion here you see that there's no emotion on the face which i'm going to talk about in in just a couple of videos i'm going to explain exactly what i think is going on without making a diagnosis and i think the way that he pauses when people say that he paused you know this guy's being deceptive uh this i think this pause was a display of deference to the opposing counsel for the interruption that had happened there for him saying right and then he paused a little bit longer than he normally would and that's what i think that was this is mostly truthful scores a6 on the bay build table of elements this is the i think the lowest uh score uh greg what do you got yeah i saw truthful too i mean he's got a low blink rate here's the problem guys this guy has just it's not like they're trying to hide they premeditatedly murdered their parents with shotguns so he's casually talking about a 9-1-1 call of course i mean this is a pretty if you watch this entire thing it's gritty there's a lot of horrific stuff going on not the least of which is murdering your parents with a shotgun i mean i was talking to somebody earlier i was talking to eric and he said you know it's not easy to go and call your brother and say hey what are you doing friday night you know this is not a normal thing and they just admitted among the most horrific things on earth to murdering their parents pr in premeditated fashion going out buying shotguns with the intent so he's not trying to hide the fact he called 9-1-1 and he didn't tell the truth so there's no pressure that's what we're seeing is low pressure even though it's a cross even there on him you see pretty good eye contact not a high blink rate open pretty the one thing that i would say is either raise your hands or sit on your hands but don't do both because you get that false shrug because he's sitting on his hands and his arms would want to move so his illustrators illustrating his points and thoughts are not there but he certainly has good eye contact he certainly looks like he's being honest and like you chase i don't have your btoe in front of me but i would say the same thing low low low deception scott what do you got yeah everything is looks the way it should i think he's sitting and he and his brother both are sitting in a swivel chair that's the problem there because he's moving around constantly i'm now in interrogation you really want that but if you've got a witness up there the last thing you want is to have a swivel chair on wheels because it goes backwards and force and he's goofing around and doing all that and see him going up there's a there's a thing called anti-anti-gravity movements joe navarro always talks about it when you go up and you pop up that that denotes it indicates you're in a good mood you've seen something you really agree with like uh when when the bride comes out if you'll keep an eye next time right at a wedding keep an eye on the groom you'll see him pop up on his on his toes because he's like yeah there she is so keep an eye out for things like that if someone's on the phone they get good news and they're they're they're talking on the phone and they'll pop up you'll see that um but this is he gives a short tight delivery all of his inflections are where they should be vocally his head's up and just really the big thing bothers me and this is that swivel chair but as to this specific phone call when you first made contact with the police did you plan out what you were going to say to them no and uh i really don't remember exactly what i said other than reading this but i know that i wasn't going to say that we you know we were involved would this be on the weekends the showers together yes well it would be after tennis after sports of course okay so it's after sports of course yes okay well we took every time we finished playing on the tennis courts we always him and i and sometimes lyle depends how old he was at the time we'd go and take a shower together now you mean every time meaning on the weekends yes he really wasn't around too often um during the day uh in the week all right uh greg what do you got yeah we'll make this pretty quick there's one little request for approval but it's part of his baseline all we're going to see here is a baseline for this guy and by the way this is his counsel and she is an agent of the story here is all that's happening she's helping him tell the story asking questions he's responding and telling a story so i think we see good baseline we're seeing him tilting his head when he listens engaging with his eyes just basic stuff uh scott what do you got i've not seen a whole lot here either it's like his illustrators are good he's loping as he's telling as he's given the answer um it's a little bit rushed that's okay i'm not seeing any adapters anything worth a hoot so that's that's me greg or chase what do you got it was just interesting here that he said we would go shower together not just we would go shower i think that just that's more illustrative of the the deviant family structure that he grew up in and lived in uh throughout his life it's not we would go shower because we would go shower together and uh that's it he's loping along truthful and very different very showing a lot of deference uh mark what do you got yeah if there's one thing here it is that look of approval he then pulls back as well i mean this person i think is the person questioning him is on his side am i am i right yeah so they're kind of playing with each other offering offering uh accepting pulling back but i think that there is an idea here of trying to get the acceptance of behavior here that many of us out there would go okay i'm not quite sure about whether this was the correct behavior to have i'm not quite sure whether this is on the borderline of something you know wrong going on there's a lot of ideas of getting acceptance around some of these borders being crossed over there that's all i got for you would this be on the weekends the showers together yes well it would be after tennis after sports of course okay so it's after sports of course yes okay well we took every time we finished playing on the tennis court we always him and i and sometimes lyle depends how old he was at the time we'd go and take a shower together now you mean every time meaning on the weekends yes he really wasn't around too often um during the day uh in the week okay we're good that's it do you remember your earliest recollection of being frightened by one of your parents which parent your father yes and what were the circumstances of this earliest memory of being frightened by your father i was swimming do you remember where you were swimming i was swimming at the i believe it was called ramapo i'm not quite sure the name it was a lap pool and what happened well when i was in muncie i couldn't quite swim um the 25-yard uh pool without breathing and he wanted me to do it straight without breathing because that way you swim faster and uh i couldn't do it so he would train me to do it without breathing and how would he do that by grabbing my hair and dunking me under the water and then lifting me up and dunking me under the water again okay chase what do you got i think this is truthful we have emotional recall right at the question there's body narration he's moving his hands he's illustrating as scott will put it there's eyebrow flash which i think is i think both of them showing this eyebrow flash is trained submission or uh conditioned submission especially to someone who is in a position of authority like an attorney a doctor those types of people so they i'll talk about it in a second but the suggestibility of an adult who was abused as a child is way increased and is his memory of the event this brings the behaviors to the present moment and this technique what asking about these events brings the memories into the present so the chemicals that were there the feelings that were there are still very palpable and they're easier to bring in and this is a technique a lot of times that attorneys can use on the stand to get someone in a vulnerable state by asking questions about something completely different and then asking something challenging because i've accessed that vulnerable state first and so this brings brings that up and he used the word trained instead of abused he never said abused he used the word trained which i think speaks to his dysfunctional upbringing and how he was taught to view the world as this is natural this is normal and this is something that everybody else endures mostly truthful behavior here scott yeah i'm gonna i agree with you i'm seeing all this this this we're seeing the same stuff his illustrators are good he's loping along just tell that like he's you know like he's like it happened this morning however we do see an adapter when uh he says when he talks about i couldn't do it we see him go like that and when he says he couldn't do it i think he's reliving that moment then when his dad held him underwater and he saw it coming he's like i can't do it and he's gonna get i think he was worried about all the way up to that point where he grabbed and stick him under this is a violent thing that's going on here this isn't just something where he would hold me into what the kids flailing around probably screaming making noise apparently nobody else is around it's just he and his father or his brother and his mother to do that and let that happen without running over there are you guys gonna be able to let that happen that road there and you know what that's gonna be tough man so i think he's reliving that that's what we're seeing that little that little grimace he's got as he again biting down his mouth on his on his bottom lip uh and then when he's illustrating those moves of his father doing all these things are very smooth everything he's going along is very smooth nothing is he's not stopping and and it's all jerky and short little words and separated everything's just flowing right along there is cadence in other words this greg always relates to it as or talks about it as everything's just it's just fine go along he's telling like it's like it was no big thing i think this guy got so far in their heads from since they were little he's ruined them up to this point you know they they don't know what's normal behavior i think so for him that could have been happening to everybody and it wouldn't have bothered him if you said it happened my dad did the same thing i'm saying yeah it's terrible isn't it you wouldn't go what are you kidding me because to him that's normal and to us you know most people that that kind of behavior isn't normal so yeah we're seeing they're saying the same kind of stuff there mark what do you got yeah so i agree with you that chase uh the the abuse has been reframed as training it's been softened essentially and and we'll hear more of that later on uh does that mean that it's it's soft in his head no not at all to scott's point as that lip retracts and pulls back what you're seeing there is a signal of extreme stress severe pain and severe psychological damage essentially that's what i would say that is an indicator of and is synonymous with that you know there's small literature retractions that were i'm going to mean that that's a big lip retraction that again is a significant change notice the difference how he is before that moment and after that moment it's a big move and because it's a big move i'd say it is uh it indicates a very big feeling comes that and uh then you see the move i couldn't do that now we could suggest that maybe an element of it could be the the pain of not being able to swim underwater and and and achieve the result that his father was was trying to get from him but i think because it's so big and there's no shame attached to it it really is just the reliving of the of the pain i think it's about most likely about abuse and therefore i would go down the route of because it was so fast so quick that something did happen here that was abusive almost you know torture for him that's that's what i got around that is that all of us uh greg what do you got yeah so i'm gonna go an entirely different direction on a couple of these things but yes everything you said every one of you said i saw the same thing so i'm not gonna beat those up if you're raised in a hostile environment if you've been through trauma many times in your life you've become hyper-guarded as human nature all of us who have been to war all of that we all recognize ptsd people become hyper-guarded hyper protective and that kind of thing i think this is my opinion i think it's the reason he is clarifying who she's talking about very specifically framing the question we heard it earlier in lyle very specifically framing what they're going to answer and respond to it could be a family trait maybe it's just what they do but if you've been in a hostile environment for a long time you're going to be very careful which question you answer because if you answer the wrong question things can go rough the biting i think it's a combination again of an adapter that ability to control but also protecting saying something else i knew that i could not do it and then i was gonna get my whipped you know that kind of thing stopping short of what you would usually say again he i don't see any lying i don't see a reason to lie here he's just telling a story and we also see the right eye accessing as he's doing recall family trait maybe he goes to his right as he's recalling what happened you can see the details and his rote memory for him and that kind of thing now here's the problem could it also be a rehearsed story sure it could be he's telling a story but this is there's no reason to lie about this there's plenty of other things he could lie about to make it a lot worse this is part of the why did why did i believe my parents would kill me solution they've already admitted they've killed their parents they've said a whole lot more horrific things that were going on between them and the entire family so i don't see deception and i do see legalistic hype regarded and then even when he responds to a question and finishes he does that little count the sniff i finished that one and moves on to the next that's what i got do you remember your earliest recollection of being frightened by one of your parents which parent your father yes and what were the circumstances of this earliest memory of being frightened by your father i was swimming do you remember where you were swimming i was swimming at the i believe it was called ramapo i'm not quite sure the name it was a lap pool and what happened well when i was in muncie i couldn't quite swim um the 25 yard pool without breathing and he wanted me to do it straight without breathing because that way you swim faster and i couldn't do it so he would train me to do it without breathing and how would he do that by grabbing my hair and dunking me under the water and then lifting me up and dunking me under the water again would your mother ever be around when your father was doing this kind of training yeah would she ever intervene no my mom didn't intervene when my dad was doing things over the years were there occasions when your father was being physically violent with you yes did your mother ever intervene no were there times when you were young when your father was ridiculing or berating you when your mother would say a word or two when i was young would she do that yes and would even that intervention did that end uh before you were a teenager lady state for how long would that type of intervention how long did that type of intervention by your mother continue it continued when i was young not all the time usually at the dinner table when he uh he didn't get on me very much usually just lie out but i guess a lot of times i wanted to to jump in not when dad was angry but when dad was in a good mood to sort of be a part of the conversation and uh and dad would would jump on top of me uh when i physically or verbally verbally and my mom would say jose and uh he would just look at her and he wouldn't stop that ended i guess before pds so it was before i was 11. mark what do you got yeah i think the the one thing i want to bring up on this is is the softening that's going on around this uh training so there's no talk of abuse it's now called training and then it's called things now i think in my mind i like okay things training no we're talking about abuse here but it's being softened by everybody it seems in this in this conversation and so i start to think you know because i don't know this case i don't know what's happening here but i just started to think why is everybody softening this idea of abuse why doesn't it seem to count for very much or want to be really you know talked about in in the words that i think you know most of us watching this might might use and i start to go what's really going on here in the court why isn't this important right now why is it okay to soften this so you know interesting uh and notable vast difference in how i would frame it and how everybody in the court is framing it now what do they know that i don't know at this point why why am i going that's wrong that's not the right word to use why are they using training and things when i would use the word abuse they all know something that i don't know right now so that that interests me what do i what don't i know about this greg what do you got yeah so i'll give you a little heads up what they do what they know is they're trying not to be um accused of killing for revenge so if they if it sounds like abuse then it will be revenge that's his counsel now uh the prosecutor actually comes in and says the reason you killed him is because and we'll see that later so yeah mark i mean you're dead into what's going on there here i see that same right eye accessing for recall there's not a whole lot of reason to lie here i don't see anything again he's legalistic and again his attorney is an agent of the story she's narrating this story and asking yes and no questions even to the point she gets called on the carpet for leading at some point so yeah i mean this is there's no reason to lie he's rehearsed the story i can guarantee you they've they know what they're going to talk about next and extend next to next they've had a lot of preparation time and it shows but he also looks honest his face is softened you can see there's nothing really crazy going on not a lot of blink rate not a lot of eye accessing avoidance no no blocking remember guys we talk about things like eye blocking to avoid contact we talk about eye avoidance to break content we talk about barriering putting our hands between us putting something between us fidgeting adapting those are all things that we look for as clusters of nervous behavior not deception we don't see a lot of that here we see pretty smooth the messaging while it might be odd for me is his it's consistent he's recalling it's congruent with the message he's delivering so it's good baseline chase what do you got i totally agree with you guys on all of this and to speak to mark's point and greg's this language also presents them in many different opportunities to use more inflammatory language where most lawyers want inflammatory language in there and we see a lack of inflammatory language throughout no matter what crime is being discussed what abuse what uh sexual relationship was developed within the within the family there's no language there that the attorney says you have to use the word abuse you have to say it hurt you have to say i hated it you need to show some emotion that you didn't enjoy it none of that's there which suggests to me that there's not a narrative there's not a sharp narrative to show anything in a certain light one thing that was in this is he said my mom but he said dad he used the word dad not my dad but dad so in this statement is there's distancing language to mom and there's a very personal language when speaking about dad i think that's pretty interesting here not sure what it means but i think it shows us a little bit of a potential regression which i'm going to talk about in a second here and i think the just the overall lack of emotion is the result of a lifetime of what i would call horrifyingly dysfunctional behavior uh throughout the family that's that's all i got that's a quick summary scott all right we're seeing his behavior is really similar to his brother's behavior i guess i was talking about earlier i think we've all might have brought that up because his arms are together they're really close to his torso trying to protect himself his hands are down there near his crotch they may be folded or maybe i can't tell obviously we can't see how he's holding them but it's really really we're pretty much seeing the same thing that his brother's doing when he says mom didn't intervene when dad was doing things let me see his head go down his his mouth goes open he takes in a deep breath i think he's ashamed of that i think he's ashamed of saying that his mom didn't take up for him that's pretty hardcore um yeah so that's pretty much what i'm saying he's just trying these with these things it sounds like he's trying to get all this stuff off his chest as he is he's saying it maybe for the first time i don't know i'm sure he's talked about it with his brother but i think we're seeing a lot of shame here and and not as much embarrassment but he's sure is closing off he's turtling a little bit and he's getting down and putting that head toward him i think it i think it's shame and embarrassment we're seeing there a lot of would your mother ever be around when your father was doing this kind of training yeah would she ever intervene no my mom didn't intervene when my dad was doing things over the years were there occasions when your father was being physically violent with you yes did your mother ever intervene no were there times when you were young when your father was ridiculing or berating you when your mother would say a word or two when i was young would she do that yes and would even that intervention did that end before you were a teenager lady sustained for how long would that type of intervention how long did that type of intervention by your mother continue it continued when i was um young not all the time usually at the dinner table when he uh he didn't get on me very much usually just lie out but i guess a lot of times i wanted to to jump in not when dad was angry but when dad was in a good mood to sort of be a part of the conversation and uh and dad would would jump on top of me uh when i could particularly or verbally verbally and my mom would say jose and uh he would just look at her and he wouldn't stop that that ended i guess before pds so it was before i was 11. all right we're good yep yeah did you tell your mom yes what did you say to your mom i told this to tell dad to leave me alone and he keeps touching me all right chase what do you got there it is the use of dad again so we see i told him to tell dad is interesting and the opposing counsel we can see some empathy here where the her voice softens if you go back to video one and take a listen to how she's asking questions and now how her voice is triggered into this motherly tone and i don't think that was deliberate at all for her to do that and so this is a truthful response this scores an eight on the btoe the table of elements this softening language is used as a habit i think here even when stronger language would be more effective to persuade a jury they tend not to do that they tend not to use that type of language and if any trial consultant is just starting out in their career i would say step one is to have a thesaurus in your briefcase 24 hours a day when you get on these conference calls to restructure reword the way that people are you saying their testimony and reword the way that you're asking questions about someone's experience so thesaurus is a big deal because words matter and we're not seeing inflammatory or changed responses so i think softening is a way of life for a lot of this not just words but in soften events that may also be why killing was not a far leap from everything else that's been going on if so much as normal the line to reach abnormal is further away uh greg yeah so a couple of things here um one thing is remember that his counsel has it has advised them the last thing you want people to feel is that you wanted revenge i think that's part of the reason we're hearing all the softening language whether it's part of their normal life or not could be too because he uses the word kill when he's talking about i killed my parents you don't hear that very often in people who murder people you hear i heard i did whatever this is real crying now i'm also going to tell you we can tell you whether crying is real or not but not what someone used to generate it a good actor wells up real emotion inside and then all the chemicals work and everything happens but i'll give you a short list of things i look for blood red eyes snotty nose um trying to control the leaking from the nose yelping breathing you'll hear it and as we go through this you'll hear the body does one thing really well i always teach people when they're trying to learn to run don't worry about your breathing your body's been doing it since you're born it has a rhythm it does its own thing and when you cry you interrupt that and you'll hear that as your body tries to regulate and go back to normal you're going to hear that in this guy so it's real he's touching his nose he goes you see the request for approval at one point and then that distaste and sorrow this is all real he's got everything showing i no deception here i mean this is a kid talking about something horrible happened so immediately and guys this is the cleanest thing we could find this is perfect this keeps it to euphemisms this is a horrible testimony this guy's crying for real yep perfect mark what do you got yeah so um so you're dead on about that uh rhythm piece there and of of crying now of course you can reproduce that rhythm so what do i look out for the big thing which is so hard to reproduce is the blood coming here and here and underneath here and in fact if you look at japanese animations you know anime that's what they will show you uh as somebody's getting emotionally hot they'll they'll redden these areas here it's very important in the japanese anime culture strangely not so important in our general kind of north american european uh artistic culture but it shows up a great deal and it it's tough to reproduce that i've never seen anybody manage to reproduce that reddening without there being an emotion behind it yes of course an actor can reproduce the emotion and the emotion will start all the right chemicals going this is real crying there's a real feeling there and it's that redness that certainly you know kind of uh nails that one down for me scott what have you got there oh by the way one last thing um we yeah we get grief in the forehead here we get it in the chin as well there's another couple of indicators and he moves into present tense so i think we've talked about this before but but the story is starting to move from past tense into present tense so now the person is in the moment in the emotion and that can be quite a powerful place to get a witness to if if it's useful if it's not going to be useful you wouldn't want to get them into that present tense situation sorry scott go for it see i thought i was going to get i thought i was going to get out of there with with some stuff left to talk about mark you just clobbered i was gonna open up with what you just ended with and you're like ah i was like don't do it don't do it so i'll go into this he's talking like a child i think he's been busted back down to where he's that little kid is coming through um because i think once that abuse starts at a young age a part of you stays that age uh stays there we see a little bit of the greek muscle i was surprised at how much we didn't see though i'm surprised i was i was almost shocked when i kept going because everything else is real you can't fake like you guys are saying you cannot fake this all those things we're seeing you can't fake however that grief muscle isn't huge i kept thinking it would pop out and be really big but it really wasn't you know even even his chin boss that was that wasn't a big a big deal either we do see it in the mouth but one thing i thought was interesting is we're seeing about four different expressions fighting themselves in here we're seeing him run through these things they're bouncing back and forth from anger to shame to fear to to all these different things because i'm seeing the sadness shame and anger and fear all in these things and they're bouncing not just in the same uh in a row the same time every time they're bouncing around there's a whole lot going on here a whole lot going on so i think he's he's he's been trained quote unquote not to show emotion and he and his brother both but as as he's going through this i think that shows how it's bouncing around his head so much it's so locked up in there and trying to get out it's just like banging around on the inside of his head trying to get out and that's how it's showing because like greg always says you cannot hide your body language and this guy can't hide any of this stuff and he does the biting adapter again it's the same as his brothers so it's again very similar but this was this really gave i really felt sorry for this guy here because i think everything they're saying about that so far pretty much most of it is true about about the abuse that they suffered so i'm just seeing that just like man it's heartbreaking to see somebody's brain going through all that you know so that's what i got you muted greg can i point out two things one when scott says grief muscle he means this duchenne's grief muscle it shows up and we when we're talking about chin boss we're it's that right if you can see most people don't control those muscles it's it takes a hell of a lot of practice to control those muscles especially that one i just can't believe you can still do that i try and try i can't do i can barely albert died my dog died a few months ago like still get a little bit of it in there i sent you guys a picture of it but guys the thing when scott's pointing that out those are grief muscles that engage and and i can do them individually but all of that together that takes control that i got enough scooch up and do that grief muscle man this cheese did you tell your mom yes what did you say to your mom i told this to tell dad to leave me alone and he keeps touching me did you kill your father to get back at him for what you say he did to you when you were a child sexually no i killed him because we were afraid because what was going on that weekend so the um things that you told us that happened between yourself and your father when you were age six to eight have nothing to do with your motivation for killing is that correct that's right and what you say happened between you and your mother what you've described now as being mutual that had nothing to do with your motivation for killing her is that correct that's right all right greg what do you got yeah so this one i'll go very quickly he does one shoulder shrug when she asks the question he eye blocks he breaks away he becomes a shrinking target he oddly uses two pronouns he uses a first person and a plural pronoun at the same time i killed him i killed him because we were afraid that's an interesting twist of words he's not changed eye one time in this entire story talking about this and then she says that's right he does that lip bite or lip compression a little bit his body shrinks and there's a shift here then he does a deep swallow and an eye block this is the first time we're hearing the approach to say you killed him because of past sexual abuse and that's the case the prosecution was trying to make so this is the crux of the matter that could get him the death penalty and by the gas chamber at the time by the way and that's the reason for suddenly you're starting to see blink rate increase in all these things is he knows he's on the griddle first time i see any kind of possible deception in this guy in the entire thing throughout this whole mess of a story scott what do you got yeah man i was that was again my opening line i see deception here first time at all this stuff dead gummy um we see that adapter twice in his mouth and uh but but i'm saying i'm seeing deception here that's what i that's what i'm getting too that's it's because they've got to watch what they're saying during all this okay chase what do you got i think in in both of these guys what we're seeing we're starting to see is a trauma genic arrested development so a lot of people were going through but before the age of 12 we tend to evolve a little bit and start becoming into adults and some people especially in cases where there's trauma two things are very common there is a rested development where they fail to grow up and mature into adulthood it doesn't matter whether or not you're wearing a brooks brothers shirt and with a nice sweater on it and the second thing we happen that happens here is that the person becomes very familiar and very good at going into a dissociative state which speaks to mark's comment earlier about maybe there's something else there maybe there's another person there answering this question in any regard i think that's what it is and this is i think this is triggering a paternal state a lot in the opposing council or in the person doing this interview here the deception score was 19 on the behavioral table and blink rate went from 10 to 77 during the answer you watch the other ones during these truthful responses the blink rate is even and steady throughout the entire time that's a massive shift there's lip retraction with that looks different than his other ones to me i'll leave it up to you guys watching the video it looked like there could be a potential for dupers to light inside of the lip retraction that's all i got mark yeah so i guess you know one person's deception is another lawyer's argument and so that that's kind of what's happening here i i think because i was very confused right from the start going why are they why is there so much dissociation from the abuse and to your point chase yeah you're absolutely right this dissociation from the abuse is is classic in this situation but then when everybody's joining in with the dis this is the the dissociation i start to go well this is that this is organized in some way they this is this is the argument it it's appearing to me and tell me if i'm wrong it's appearing to me that they are having to say that it was nothing to do with the abuse because if they say it was to do with the abuse as you're saying greg it's a death penalty if it's to do with fearing for your life right now if it's revenge death penalty if it's i feared for my life right now i i get a a better deal out of this and so who's lying in this situation well i guess most everybody aren't they in the in the court most everybody but i think that's called an argument so let's not go down that that particular route but yeah uh this is the biggest moment of deception from for me and but i still i still think there's an opportunity here that there is disassociative states as well because it's it's so calm it's it's so collected around something that for most of us watching would be uh you know a horror uh there that's all i got on that one cool did you kill your father to get back at him for what you say he did to you when you were a child sexually no i killed him because we were afraid and because what was going on that weekend so the um things that you told us that happened between yourself and your father when you were aged six to eight have nothing to do with your motivation for killing is that correct that's right and what you say happened between you and your mother what you've described now as being mutual that had nothing to do with your motivation for killing her is that correct that's right okay [Music] why is it that you lied to the police why did you tell them that you why did you decide not to tell them that you were involved well when they didn't show up my brother and i decided then that if it was possible we didn't want to have to explain what happened i didn't think you know i just we had just shot our parents and we didn't want to go to jail you wanted to get away with it right you really weren't thinking in those terms and we weren't thinking in terms of we were just basically thinking that we'd shot our parents and that this was horrible and that if you know i just couldn't tell the police that and that i did not want to then have to tell them why and explain everything about my family and neither of us did and we were pretty pretty firm about that and i mean we knew that they would they could easily figure it out and you know we didn't know anything about how they investigate things and they might figure it out right away but until they did they didn't want to volunteer all right i'll go first on this one this is the first time we see him use a barrier that's his shoulder he's moving his shoulder forward and that's what barriers are for there's anything you can put between you and the other person being a pen be a piece of paper be a coffee cup whatever it is just a barrier to put anything you put between you and the other person to give you a little bit of space now we don't see him do that freeze thing and put his head down like we did before so this is something he's been told to say and i don't think he was told to say what to say word for word he was told to talk about it in or it was he was told to him in generalities and that's what he's given us he's not being specific he's being specific but he's his wording it's not like it's been it's not easy it's just in these blocks of information he's giving he closes his eyes a little bit there at the top and just takes a little bit time to think that's when i think he's got the inner dialogue and he's recalling what he's been told before because we don't see that up to this point either so this is this behavior is completely different than a lot of the behaviors we've been seeing before with a barrier he's thinking and he's he's talking odd he's speaking oddly in this situation about the things that happened up to that point so this stuff here i think like to greg's point earlier he's he's he's protecting himself at this point he's not he's not i think deception in this goes through the roof for me anyway so that's what i'm that's what i'm seeing here greg what do you got yeah so i see it's blink rate increase guys when we say blink rate increase it means that fight or flight is hit your eyes are drying out your eyelids are designed to do one thing and that's wet and protect your eye and your eyelids are dry because mucous membranes are dry as a result of adrenaline so your blink rate goes through the roof and his does chase i'm sure you'll know the number he does do recall accessing he goes back to what you know i call where he's going for digital memory to recall something he's supposed to say then down into his left that's internal conversation if you sit and try to calculate 15 of 980 you'll find your eyes drifting down into your life too as you try to have that internal conversation he does a pronoun shift i we at one point there when he's talking about killing i kill we kill and then finally i'll leave it at this and keep it pretty short once he's you know said everything he has to say he kind of goes and and that's that he kind of raises his shoulders like that's what i got what do you got so chase i'll drop it to you next and what do you got thanks man so the the blink rate you're asking about is 64. and that increase in blink rate is one of the rare things here that we see that i think is is deceptive and as far as the behavioral table of elements goes there's several little exchanges here so for each exchange that's how we measure deception for each exchange he did not score over an 11 the single shrugs are at times where it would be expected if the statements were truthful he said 11 weeds and two eyes in the conversation and the eyes were about i didn't want to explain and i didn't want to explain this to the police but this is the first time we hear him say we had just killed our parents so i think this is a truthful towards the end it's it becomes more truthful because we tend to all humans when we talk about negative things like the the boss at your office like there's some bad thing that happened hey we we totally messed up guys we tend not to own that we'll say something away from ourselves we use more team focused pronouns with negative information and that's what's happening here as well and i think the single shrugs occur pretty well but the blink rate is steady up until a point and i want you to take a look when it starts going up what is going on right when that blink rate goes up i'll leave that to you and you guys can put that in the comments mark what do you got yeah so i think there is deception around the motive about why they did i think that's the deception that's going on here and i think there is compartmentalization or or disassociation or distancing but i think it's putting things into compartments around keeping the shooting very separate from revealing the family secrets very separate from revealing the abuse because that is has been uh pushed down and normalized so that the horror of that is not present every day in in their lives in their conscious mind i expect um so yeah so i think some of the deception we might be picking up on is deception around we've we've organized this story so we get a better deal let's stick with the story some of the deception that we're seeing is i got to keep this in one compartment we can't let these things muddy into each other or i'm going to go back into one of those emotional states that you've maybe seen me in and i'm going to start having to relive that and i don't want to go there and in fact you know we were told to keep this quiet we've been told to suppress this all our lives the worst thing we can do is let this story out and here it is for everybody to see so yeah this association compartmentalization and plain old deception going on there as well it's quite a mess isn't it there's a lot there's a lot going on it's pretty complex uh you know exciting to watch lots going on there and um i'm certainly not going to go and watch the rest of the interview but do it if you want to why is it that you lied to the police why did you tell them that you why did you decide not to tell them that you were involved well when they didn't show up my brother and i decided then that if it was possible we didn't want to have to explain what happened i didn't think you know i just we just shot our parents and we didn't want to go to jail you wanted to get away with it right you really weren't thinking in those terms and we weren't thinking in terms of we were just basically thinking that we'd shot our parents and that this was horrible and that if you know i just couldn't tell the police that and that i did not want to then have to tell them why and explain everything about my family and neither of us did and we were pretty pretty firm about that and i mean we knew that they would they could easily figure it out and you know we didn't know anything about how they investigate things and they might figure it out right away but until they did they didn't want to volunteer all right let's roll around the room one time and let's talk about what our thoughts are on whether we're seeing truth or deception with each one of these guys okay greg you want to go first yeah so let's talk about two things number one truth or deception about the abuse i think it's truth i mean all the emotion you saw hard to fake cry could he pull it up sure they were factual there were very few indicators and few clusters of deception from any of us so yes i do believe the abuse happened on the second question do i believe there was another motive for example were they fearful for their life that that day i don't think that's true i think we see deception when they start probing that and we didn't see as many videos but clearly we start to see blink rate increases we see clusters of deception we see changes in comfort we see changes in posturing we see barriers putting something between me and you we see adapting making myself comfortable so i think on count one i think they're telling the truth on the second one i don't believe them chase what do you got i'm with you i think the physical and sexual abuse allegations they are being truthful and the motive question i do not think that that was the motive i think they had a lifetime of abuse and they were finished with it and i think maybe they were fearful i'm not saying they were not fearful but i'm saying the the the weight of the motive is mostly in premeditation mark uh yeah so as to the abuse and the emotions around that yes absolutely true and real i've watched some other video uh as well that we didn't look at of those emotional states and they are they produce a high level of empathy and therefore that's really hard to do you can do it you have to be a really good actor i saw it the other day on with anthony hopkins in his new film uh genius genius acting if this guy was acting in this he's as good as hopkins okay so i'm not saying he can't be as good as hopkins but it's unlikely so uh occam's razor says that's that's true feelings going on there um was there another motive involved i haven't seen enough detail of them talking about other stuff so i can't really judge on on that one so i don't know where to fall on on that one maybe maybe not haven't seen them talking enough about about being in fear of their lives and any of the detail around that of the videos maybe we need to do another one later yeah another john scott what's your take all right and i'm i'm with you guys 100 i i think they're they're truthful about what happened to them about the abuse and i think they're hiding the parts and and not being honest about the part about what the what the motive is i think they were mad and they would get back at him for what happened to him when they were when they were younger when they were kids being treated that way i think that's what happened from as a just as a flinch you know they said okay i've had enough of this let's go do that and they did it so because do you go out and buy guns that takes a little bit to go do that you just can't go pop out and get some and come back to the house and you know you that's thought out so they thought about that a little bit and i think it was i i personally think it was revenge i don't i don't think it was uh and they were probably in fear for their lives but i think it was from the revenge point of view all right well if you like what we're doing please subscribe just to hit that little red thing down there at the bottom and you'll be hooked up all right you guys this was a good one and i'll see you next time thank you uh is

Channel: The Behavior Panel

Views: 134,216

Rating: 4.9484081 out of 5

Keywords: the menendez brothers, menendez brothers trial, erik menendez, lyle menendez, true crime, brothers, menendez, news, menendez brothers, erik and lyle menendez, jose menendez, raul menendez, menendez trial, law and order true crime, law & order true crime, body language, body language analysis, the behaviour panel, the behavior panel, 2020, abc, reading body language, menendez family, read body language, body language reading, crime, real crime, crime & courts, lyle, erik, tiktok

Id: EdCg9LAy3sY

Length: 96min 20sec (5780 seconds)

Published: Wed Apr 07 2021

Reddit Comments

[u/JhinWynn]

Interesting that they conclude the brothers are being truthful about the abuse but see deception when it comes to motive. This video kinda confirmed a few things I have theorised about the killings in terms of intent to kill and the emotions that played into it.

[u/burgirl27]

Thank you for the recommendation! I just finished watching it after you suggested it on your IG story. It was very insightful and interesting to see opinions from a panel of experts. I’m really hoping they do a part 2; I would LOVE to hear what they think of the other testimonies.

Do you think it was premeditated?

P.S. I’m really hoping Stephanie Harlowe would do a deep dive on the brothers one day. I’m sure she’ll put in 10x more research and effort than Kendall Rae did on hers, lol.

[u/danslips]

This video was amazing. I really hope they do a part 2! It was very interesting. Also, the channel Observe is working on a video on the Menendez Brothers body language on trial. It probably won't be as detailed as this but it sure will be interesting!

[u/dark_vegetable]

What I find most convincing is a couple of times when Lyle is talking about the abuse, and once specifically when Lyle is talking about doing things to Erik in the forest, the camera pans onto Erik and there is a huge vein bulging out of the side of his forehead. That's almost impossible to fake. There are a handful of Oscar-winning actors who can reproduce it to some extent but they have to go to a real emotional place to do that. Note, Erik isn't even on the stand where he knows he is supposed to be "acting".