💥 IS HE INNOCENT IN STACEY STITES CASE? Rodney Reed Interview: Body Language

and water starts falling out of my mat side of my mouth it's because i went to the dentist today oh well one half of my face is frozen at the moment yeah but i also i also did my own hair i cut my own hair what do you think is that a floppy it wasn't floating no no it wasn't like it looks great man i like it yeah yeah it looks good it's pretty good yeah not bad at all that's really good so mine start look like my hair now looks like the hair i would draw on a drawing when i was a kid if i drew a stick man or something and put hair on and that's the way my hair looks now what a fascinating case i didn't know any history until you talked about it greg it's crazy it's some i haven't heard about it before no and i started looking for a place we could maybe weigh in and help with an innocence project one well whatever we see is what we see [Music] all right you ready yeah all right here we go i'm scott rouse i'm a body language expert and analyst and i train law enforcement in the military in interrogation and body language i created with greg hartley the number one online course body language tactics mark i'm mark bowden i'm an expert in human behavior and body language i help people all over the world to stand out win trust and gain credibility every time they communicate including some of the leaders of the g7 chase have chase hughes i did 20 years of the us military now i teach interrogation behavior profiling influence and persuasion to intelligence agencies in the general public and i'm the author of the number one bestselling book the ellipsis manual and this brand new book here six minute x-ray rapid behavior profiling soon to be an owner of scott's brand new body language book greg i'm greg hartley i'm a firmer army interrogator interrogation instructor resistance to interrogation instructor i've written 10 books on body language and behavior and i put together this course with scott at bodylanguagetactics.com i work most the time on wall street in corporate america today all right well today we're going to talk about a guy named rodney reed and this has sort of blown up over the past six eight months greg why don't you give us a little bit of background on what you found yeah so guys i'll be as factual as i can this is a complex case this is one that we love when it's such a mess that it's hard to read through anything and figure out what's going on so i think this case is about 21 22 years old he's been in prison 21 22 years something like that maybe even longer because i think he went in when he was 22 and he's 53 now anyway he's accused of murder and rape of a woman in the town he was in that he lives in and this is a town in southern texas somewhere outside san antonio um his response to that was that he was in a consensual relationship with his reason they found dna on her and since then lots of things have changed lots of evidence if you go look this case up you need to spend a lot of time when you first open up this case you'll find all one-sided information then you'll find all the other side's information it's a big deal he was slated to be executed and that last minute delayed that execution and that's now indefinite he's on death row in texas lots of celebrities are involved the innocence projects involved dr phil has been involved a whole lot of people have talked to him there are many interviews you'll have to go and spend time to understand how complex this case is there's dna evidence there may have been mishandling of the body some chain of custody issues so we're not going to cover any of that today we're going to say what do we see in this interview also going to tell you that many of the interviews you'll see the person may or may not be pro or anti rodney reed in the case where they're pro and they're fist bumping the glass those are a little suspect to me this woman when she's questioning i will say this she's not the best questioner i've met i think she has a hard time being rude and asking hard questions taught interrogation for a lot of years that's the number one failure in interrogators they have a hard time saying hey did you kill this girl so her questioning style may not be good but she does ask some very good hard questions a couple of times and we'll get to see some body language what we plan to do is not say rodney reed is guilty or innocent we plan to say here's what we see and then at the end we'll come back and say what are you thinking you know what what are each of us thinking is that helpful yeah perfect okay you already look at the first uh little clip joe here we go wow and i mean when stacy was when you found out about her homicide i mean what was that like initially when someone who knew well was i see i didn't find out i didn't find out about her death till i don't know three four days later because i had i was with her earlier that week you know late night sunday early morning monday and i find out about her death it's either thursday or friday that week well i hear about it i don't believe it and then there's something on the news i've been told about it and then there's something on the news and it just blew me away you know on the things that she told me you know and she said she told me that jimmy that jimmy would kill her if he found out but prior to that he told me that i was gonna pay you know so i don't know and then when you got jimmy involved with the police you know because he was a police officer himself you know who can you say something to you know i'm saying when the police is always pointing his fingers at you from the beginning of all this stuff okay chase what do you got we see something in here i'm going to point out that's not the behavior stuff that we typically look at when he starts off he uses the word look and typically people who are visually driven will speak with those visual words they'll say something doesn't look right it looks off the guy's very bright he has a colorful personality these words that describe visual things and greg talks a whole lot about baseline and deviations from baseline and this is another way that we can gain a data point so if someone starts using a conversation using all of these visual words and then transitions to i remember when i heard this something didn't sound right and they told me this and i was listening to them tell me this so that's a whole bunch of audio words and he makes this transition in here which i think is an interesting data point and we see some eye movement in here that i'm i'm sure you guys will unpack a little more but we see a lot some internal dialogue going on and we see a tiny shift to something that might be his truthful recall spot which is kind of to his left directly to his left greg what do you got yeah so i've watched enough of this guy's video you're dead on his recall most of his video his audio recallers or his visual recall is going to be somewhere on his left um his internal conversation is down on his left i've watched a whole lot of video on him but a couple of things let's go back for a second let's talk about requests for approval remember i say that when you use your face a lot you etch you leave behind your word is ash mine is residuals chase but you leave behind a lot of marks on your forehead when you use your forehead a lot this guy raises his forehead a hell of a lot you can't miss it those muscles are frozen and what happens your mama was right when she told you your face is going to freeze that way if you use your face enough you end up with those lines in your forehead and he has those he's doing it a fair amount that's not what's important in this element to me watch go back and watch him when he edits what he's saying his forehead rises when he is asking for approval his forehead rises when he is telling a story or concentrating his brow is down so that was a big tale for me early in this this doesn't mean he killed anybody but it means i'm going to watch him very carefully so that when he is doing that brow rise thing i'm going to wonder why because in the middle of his editing story saying i found out i heard you saw that forehead rise when he talked about i didn't hear about it i heard about it and his forehead rises when he edits his story when something changes and he's asking for approval it's there we want to pay really close attention he blinks a fair amount in this he does about 20 blinks in a minute and 14 seconds you got i'm going to pay attention to that throughout this because there are a couple of times when his eyes flutter but he doesn't blink a hell of a lot when he's walking through and then when he's talking about jimmy by the way jimmy is her fiance at the moment that she dies he's the first he is the first suspect and he is has his own whole bag of monkeys to go with this thing he's a mess um he goes to prison for rape later of someone else so we won't get into all the case but go read this thing it's a mess but we talked about jamie that's her fiance at the time who is also a sheriff's deputy or police officer and when he's storytelling his forehead relaxes when he gets to pertinent details that blink rate increases and that forehead rises makes me wonder makes me wonder and then at jimmy saying to him jimmy said something to him that brow rises that the whole crux of his defense has been i was in a consensual relationship with her and jimmy came and told me i was going to pay that's what i got um mark what do you got yeah so i agree lots of requests for approval there which is kind of interesting it's a good kind of start to a to a baseline because hey maybe he does request for approval quite a lot we'll we'll see what happens certainly from my point of view he's really locked off because of the the phone here so i look at that and i go okay well i might be in trouble here because we're not going to get a lot of big gross kind of body movement here we're not seeing uh illustrators you know adapters kind of coming into the frame only kind of now and again so i kind of go oh no we're gonna miss a lot of what's going on we've got lots happening in the face though great detail there and actually what we do see is when the body will often kind of just lunge forward just a little bit we do see when he gets to do shoulder shrugs be they double or or single so we're gonna have to look at the kind of the detail of the smaller movements in the body which because he's locked off actually show up quite well so i see him uh move forward on this stress point around um jimmy would kill her so certainly from my point of view in the narrative the story he's wanting to tell he wants to put a lot of emphasis on that and we see his body lunge forward on that what's interesting uh for me is that he doesn't answer the feeling question which until a lot later on he starts into a series of events and those series of events place him not uh not with uh the woman when she was killed and and then once he's placed not with her then he talks about disbelief and blown away which was the initial question you know how did you feel well you know you could answer immediately i felt disbelief i was blown away by it but no he starts into placing himself away from her before he goes into how he felt about it and then points the finger at a a at a police conspiracy really around this so you know interesting opening video there avoids emotion gets into the story that best suits him and we're going to have to look out for some subtle movements in the in the body because of how he's locked off scott what do you got all right well this guy like greg was saying he's really charismatic he's been in there for a while and he's got his story straight these are these are some of the things i'm going to focus on as we go through this is his presentation of this that's mark's bag his presentation but from the interrogator's perspective i'm gonna look at how he's giving us this picture he's trying to create what you do the same is when you're trying to pitch your idea if you're an entrepreneur you try to create a picture in this other person's head that they can take home and give to their other person to their wife their husband whoever so when they go home and say what do you think about investing in then go stick it in their head and they go oh i totally get it or i don't like that whatever it is so you're trying to create this picture in their head and that's what he's doing now his vernacular and his sentence structure have changed i watched i watched an earlier um interview as well and before he you know he was kind of as you will be when you you know after when you're young and you're up and running around you get a lot of energy he's a lot more energetic and he his story was it looked a lot better here he's looking at his his story in a linear linear fashion he's telling it from a third person's perspective if you'll start listening for that it sounds he does say uh his pronouns and his name the way he uses his his vernacular in some ways says i was there other ways it's like we're looking at this thing laid out in linear fashion in other words and his vernacular changes from when he was younger to now he's been in prison he's been talking to his lawyer i'm sure as often as he possibly can reading law books and those types of things and one thing that's changed in there in his sentence structure is instead of saying uh before that i did so and so he would say prior to that this happened or this happened prior to that i feel like chase with a pen and then um the the part that bothered me was when he said um that the police officer told him he said you're gonna pay when he told he says he said you're gonna pay what he should have said or what he normally someone will say is he said you're gonna pay for this man here's what you're gonna pay he would say it from the uh law enforcement guys perspective instead of you're gonna pay from from watching it in that third person's perspective so that's one but but then again this doesn't mean that he's a murderer or anything it just means that something's changed in there he may be tired of it he may be he may have separated himself from that person back then in his life when he was younger which he discusses later on when he was younger and that's the way he thought but he's looking this from a third person's perspective so that's that's that kind of is rubbing me weird but we'll see what happens as we go along when your inputs remember when you're in prison your inputs are people who've been charged with crimes and the language you use is going to change and all of that over time too somebody pointed that out in comments on the rebecca fenton thing it hurts a little bit earlier in the process this guy's been there for a long time been on death row has talked to celebrities talked to a ton of people so his vernacular i agree with this guy his vernacular is going to change over time inputs change outputs right wow and i mean when stacy was when you found out about her homicide i mean what was that like initially when someone who knew well was i see i didn't find out i didn't find out about her death till i don't know three four days later because i had i was with her earlier that week you know late night sunday early morning monday and i find out about her death was either thursday or friday that week well i hear about it i don't believe it and then there's something on the news i've been told about it and then there's something on it and it just blew me away you know on the things that she told me you know she said she told me that jimmy that jimmy would kill her if he found out but prior to that he told me that i was going to pay you know so i don't know and then when you got jimmy involved with the police you know because he was a police officer himself you know who can you say something to you know what i'm saying when the police is always pointing his fingers at you from the beginning he has to follow this stuff okay we good yeah let's move along and what were your feelings for stacy excuse me what were your feelings for her what do you mean as far as well when you were you know even though she was engaged there were real feelings there there were but at the same time i was i was seeing someone too at the time and we were both cheating we were both but we enjoyed our time together you know i'm saying if that's the way that's what was going on that was going on at the time all right greg what do you got yeah so there's one thing that jumps off the plate at me and guys remember i'm looking for where to dig in this is what i do i'm looking for what gets my attention and makes me want to poke and understand more when she asked this question this is not the first time he's ever heard this question why would he have scrutiny and the deep inhale that he has there that indicate that someone is preparing for something complex when this is something he should have heard over and over and over again and it shouldn't make him feel uncomfortable and those are signs of discomfort right and by the way if you're dis if you're uncomfortable because of the question you also wouldn't look confused those three pieces of body language to me aren't typically the thing i don't get uncomfortable confused and take a deep breath if i don't understand the question right if i don't understand the question i'm like what the hell are you talking about even if i'm in trouble those three things together we talk about clusters we talk about baseline this is a baselining exercise it's the only time i see him do this the other thing that's interesting to me i blocks sepharah mountain here you'll see him closing his eyes to get away from the issue and and he eyeblocks with his shoulders up and deep breathing like you said mark you only really see his shoulders here much like you can with us when he when she says engaged he purses his lips he does that we typically associate that with disapproval we associate that with a negative emotion why again doesn't say he murdered this girl this woman it says i want to dig in i want to poke i want to know why he did this so then when they talk about when she says what about you i heard your mother warned you about this you see that knowing smile of yup my mom said this is going to cost me and that smile's not a pleasant smile that's just a smile again as i look at him i want to pay attention to processing time he does this scrutinizing and confused thing to give his brain processor time so he can work out how he's going to respond does that mean a lie no but it means there's a pause ask all questions go ask pause respond and if a person needs more time which i wouldn't expect after 20 years then i'm going to want to dig in that's the interrogator in my brain scott what do you got all right um we're seeing classic uh facial expressions you see in books you see everything from ekman to joe navarro's books we see in mark's books the hell all of our books i say our books now and uh we're seeing these these classic uh facial expressions we're seeing purse lips which denotes indicates that he doesn't agree with what's what's being said there was like going back to what greg was saying and he was a boxer this guy when she says um where he was saying we were both cheating what he does in there right after that he takes that he closes his eyes takes a deep breath and then his head and then he starts uh that bothers him but then he starts when he starts his answer his head starts he starts bobbing and weaving like a boxer i mean his head goes down his shoulders come up he starts this stuff i don't know if he's thinking that thinking tactically like a boxer but those guys once you talk to him you can spot a boxer standing you know four blocks down because the way their calves look in the back and the way they they bounce on the front part of their feet you'll see them do that quite often especially if they're younger even older boxers have a look to them from from a distance you can you can spot them and some of the things that bother me were the the the part where he's lip's purse when she asked him that um when she says um after she asked that question about uh what were your feelings for stacy he the purse slip says this whole thing tells me in other words he didn't really have feelings for he just saw her as a sexual partner and he was cheating with her and he was ashamed of being cheating because he said they they both were and he was too and everything we see in that from those classic gestures we're seeing tell us that he's he's embarrassed about doing that he knows it's wrong we're not dealing with a psychopath here this guy understands what's happening and he understands what he's done something wrong and he's showing us that he doesn't realize he's showing us that but that's what's that's what's happening there greg covered most everything i had i still think he had any feelings for at that to wrap that part up uh mark what do you got yeah so to that point of does he have any feelings because this is the second time that he's avoided delivering on a feeling question and and gone in a different direction so here's what i would do if i were interviewing him because he purses his lips a couple of times i'd be wanting to know what his mother said to him exactly i'd want to know hey what so tell me about this what did your mum tell you about this also i would want to make a gamble on some of the feelings that he could be feeling and i would probably hit jealousy i would probably go hey i'm just curious were you jealous in this situation or were you envious or did you feel angry or you know lay down a few options now the problem is when you lay down options some people will just take an option just because it's there it doesn't mean it's it's their emotion it's it's a bit of a um it's a bit of a plant in some ways but some people will grab hold of that emotion and develop it and then start to tell you what the real feeling is some will go no no no not jealousy what i felt was and they'll tell you the feeling that they they have so that for me is a bit of a missed opportunity there but absolutely we get those lips pulled around engaged which is why i wonder whether there might be some jealousy there so strong dislike of somebody attached to somebody else again his mother may have told him something about this last thing about this is really low blink rate at the moment so he's super calm uh here again we're going to see some some differences to that as we go along but a great baseline here is he's just calm and locked down and not getting involved in the emotion that could be here there that's what i got for you uh chase what chase what do you got thanks mark and i think when we're talking about if if you are asking somebody those emotional questions one thing that you absolutely can do and you can do the same thing with names of people is read off a list and watch for the body to either freeze or throw some kind of reaction this is especially effective if they're in motion so if they're a little bit more animated than usual that's when you're going to see a freeze when that topic comes up and i think the question about how he felt about her was unusual for him all the people are asking what's the status of the relationship how often did you see her these are factual things that can be collected this woman wanted to know how he felt about her so i think that may have caught him off guard and i think that may be one of the reasons he's not prepared to talk about feelings with this person we don't really bring that into court i don't really discuss that with my attorney and that's why we see this pause at the beginning and we see this that time gap between the finish of a question and the beginning of an answer is longer than usual for that reason and we did see those purse lips which some people call a clarinet hold in in some corners at the words engagement and cheating around there and i think there's some withheld opinions about whether or not she should have been engaged and whether or not what they were doing is really classified as cheating because of the status of that relationship even though it was legally a certain way it was emotionally or physically a different way and we see a little bit of eye blocking uh when he's talking about them cheating so we see a and when i say eye blocking there's not a hand coming up but that's a prolonged blink that lasts a couple seconds we see the eyes just completely shut down which is a great little data point here we're going to collect some more baseline points here in a few minutes but i'll leave it at that you know one thing to add chase if you were to go back and watch video from earlier times when he was asked what their relationship was he would say well there was sex that's how he categorized it so yeah yeah good and i agree jason at that at the top when she first asked him that long pause before he answers that's that classic and buying time what do what and it locks in on her that's why that's what i was talking about as well about these classic things we're seeing in there so but but then again doesn't mean he's done something horrible to this woman to stacy so what were your feelings for stacy excuse me what were your feelings for her what do you mean as far as well when you were you know even though she was engaged there were their real feelings there there were but at the same time i was i was seeing someone too at the time and we were both cheating we were both but we enjoyed our time together you know i'm saying if that's the way that's what was going on that was going on at the time all right are we good and then what where were you during that time period when she was found or when this apparently happened like april 23rd at 3 a.m at 3 a.m yeah where were you at that time i definitely went with her i was and i know i was getting ready to go to work because i had work i had to be at work i think maybe seven in between someone said between 6 30 and 9. i had to be at work i was working at a super s we were helping to remodel the store but at that time in the morning i don't know i was i couldn't really just straight out just tell you exactly where i was at that point i'd probably ever at my cousin's house or either my mother's house and get prepared to go to work all right uh chase what do you got this one is one of the most concerning so we see another delay at the beginning and this delay is called question repetition there's two typically two ways we can do this we can repeat the entire question which is more likely to be deceptive or a partial part of the question which is a little less likely to be deceptive and one of them we i asked somebody what were you doing wednesday night and they answer what was i doing wednesday night and then they give the answer the second part is when they just say wednesday night sometimes that can be just for clarification but there's still a potential for that to be a deceptive behavior especially when we're pairing it with other behaviors and we see a definite eye block at the moment that there is some kind of denial starting to come out a failure to answer and 17 freaking years we haven't figured out where you were at the time of the murder or talk to the people that you were supposedly with that's bad that doesn't look good to me and we see some very strong internal dialogue when he's answering uh and even more eye blocking towards the end around the second partial denial uh mark what do you got uh yeah totally the same chase i mean suddenly it becomes a real problem for me exactly that the repetition of the question in the i think it was very very clear i didn't think it needed repeating that there's some buying time on that or some kind of questioning of the question to try and you know kind of push back a little bit but that could be fine so long as you ended up with i'll tell you exactly where i was at at 3am and i've got a whole bunch of people who will qualify exactly that but he doesn't have that what he has is i i don't quite no it's a bit like i mean i don't want to make light of this but i started wondering if he had tigers because it's a little bit of a like 3 a.m i don't sometimes i go and get milk products for the tigers at 3am i don't you know sometimes sometimes not sometimes i stay at my uncles i'm sometimes around my mums so you so you're either going okay we've got it we've got a personality and a character here who just doesn't know where they are at 3am of any time of the week could be anywhere that's the kind of life that they have that's a that's a possibility or we have somebody who knows exactly where they are and they're not going to say where they are i don't know which one it is but it's a it's a massive problem uh it's a it's a huge problem at this point i i now start to feel like something is up and something's really going on here scott what have you got for us i i agree with you i think you i think he knew exactly where he was those kind of answers after 17 years you better know where you were because you've answered that question how many times how many times were you asked that question day one you'd figure that out so something's up in there where he's getting ready to rearrange information to make sure he's like i said it was at my cousins yeah yeah i said it back then remember yeah but you also said you might have been at your mother's you said you're getting ready for work you also said these different things this is the one that bothered me the most or one of the ones that bothered me the most because there's so much deception going on in here um again he's bobbing he's he's bobbing and weaving as as as we go through this and when he regrips at the the phone if you'll notice that he almost does a wince when uh at that point when he says uh i couldn't tell tell you exactly where i was at that point that's where he grabbed he grabs the phone you hear a little click he goes i couldn't tell exactly where i was at that point there then he gives this again this throws out just like greg calls it chaff and reed just chaff everywhere here's what here's all these possibilities that could have happened i don't know where i was 17 years ago on whatever that date was i couldn't have no clue what was going on whatsoever but i tell you what i i if i had been gotten in trouble that day or would people kept asking me about what was going on that day whenever it was i got got in trouble for it i'd know where i was i would have found out i would ask around i would know he should know and he doesn't know so that's that's a big problem for me that right there i think he knows exactly where he was but he's keeping all this information so he can later on put everything where it goes in a linear fashion and say oh yeah i did go to my mother's but i went to it after i went to this but before i went to this so he can tell his story backwards or fours because at this point he can't tell that story because he's saying he doesn't know where he is at this saying he doesn't know where he is so greg what do you got yeah so i'm going to cover a few things you know people always say you guys seem to always agree well that's because we're not because we talked about it that's because we're seeing the same things and those some classic things let me tell you that i taught resistance to interrogation and i would be proud if my students were as good as he is at avoiding a question here he's very good at avoiding the number one question a person has asked everybody's watch tv knows mark where we're at on tuesday the january the 16th well hell that's the first question i'm going to ask you is where were you he's been asked this he feigns confusion when she's asking that question number one question he's been asking his entire life i guarantee you that's a red flag guys we're not saying he's guilty we're saying here red flags that would cause my interrogator brain to go hold on a second yeah something is going on and not just one there are clusters this has a tremendous number of things going on he feigning confusion in the beginning like what are you talking about that's a delay he does he's resistant to the question where were you when this happened and then he seizes the opportunity my notes say he resisted the question wtf right there so if that gives you any idea what i'm thinking then he seizes on her throw out three o'clock a person who is guilty and who knew that something happened at 3 45 would say oh at 3 o'clock i was nowhere around we see that all the time in interrogation so that's a red flag does it mean he killed this woman again no but it gives me a reason to want to dig in he eye blocks when he answers i was not with her at 3am i definitely was not with her at 3am usually people who are innocent don't say i was not with her they tell you where they were that's a red flag now his speech pattern could be that he tells you what he didn't do i don't know i haven't spent enough time with him yet he also does you hit it dead on scott he goes into internal conversation and he starts chaff and redirect then he gets irritated with her and his eyes narrow when she starts saying sorry to go back at the end the other thing is i had to go to work sometime between 6 30 and 9 o'clock do average people have those hours maybe i'm missing something i've never had a job where i could go to work between 6 30 and 9. i'm not trying to make light of a guy who's on death row but i am telling you this is how a guy ends up in real trouble with an interrogator is by evading questions like i said i taught people to be evasive and how to get away if i were on this guy i would nail down every one of these places that he's doing this and then add to it request for approval when he says i was definitely not with her add to that when he's doing the vague question that brow goes up again there's a baseline here guys we're looking at i think that everybody wants to believe that people are innocent and and maybe maybe it's not murder maybe it's something else that he's hiding it doesn't matter what we're not looking for did he murder this woman we're looking at is he telling the truth based on what we see that's all i got yep and on the behavioral table of elements this one clip scored a 16 on the deception scale it's one of the most troubling for sure in this entirety i mean i see immediately as the questions asked surprise he has this moment of surprise and to your point why would you ever be surprised by this question it's the first question you get asked you must be asked again and again and again even if you're going to have a story for it why isn't your story just immediate yeah well historically he's he's not been honest and he's admitted to that about things when i saw her they showed me her picture i said i didn't know because i didn't want to get in trouble which we'll get to later on he's done the same and greg well we'll talk about the setup he uses to go through these things greg in a little while yeah you know okay and then what where were you during that time period when she was found or when this apparently happened like april 23rd at 3 a.m at 3am yeah where were you at that time i definitely went with her i was and i know i was getting ready to go to work because i had work i had to be at work i think maybe seven in between someone said between 6 30 and 9 i had to be at work i was working at a super s we were helping to remodel the store but at that time in the morning i don't know i was i couldn't really just straight out just tell you exactly where i was at that point i was probably at my cousin's house or either my mother's house and getting prepared to go to work all right we good all good and even though there was they said there was dna evidence do you believe that no i don't well don't absolutely they can't be i mean i what i do know is that the the very person that supposedly had maintained those cases is david board and he's no longer on the police force from what i understand but uh i don't i think that there's at least that needs to be looked into as well because i don't believe that all right well i'll go first on this one all right well when she says uh um even though they say there's no d in evidence dna evidence they said there was dna evidence do you believe that he says there can't be that's the right answer but what he says after that bugs me because uh he didn't follow up with i wasn't there it can't happen when you ask when you sit down somewhere and you ask someone so why did why why should i believe you didn't rob this place or you didn't steal that stuff from the room over there they'll say because i don't take stuff i'm not a thief why am i supposed to believe you didn't you didn't kill this girl because i'm not a murderer that's why i don't do that i'd never he doesn't go down that road he just says he he just says uh um there can't be which is the good answer that's a good answer that's the right answer but after that's when it sort of falls apart for me so we're dealing with this the dichotomy of him doing the right answers but over here it sort of falls apart on these things um that's that's all i'm gonna that's all i'm gonna say on that part because there's a lot in there and i'll and it's short and i'll suck it up um mark what do you got uh yeah so here's what worries me about this well first of all the way the question is being asked i don't kind of like that you know um uh what they they said there was dna evidence there's either dna evidence or there isn't dna evidence either they put forward evidence so so as a questioner i would be going there's dna evidence what do you say to that rather than giving some possibilities of they may or then allowing him to say he doesn't believe it because belief is a very different thing from what fact is or what truth is they're not the same thing at all and so that's why in the way this question is being put forward it gives a lot of scope for him to weave around it or not say enough really you know if you say to somebody you know what do you say to that and then let them run they'll give you all kinds of stuff so so but anyway here's what i do see here we do get a nostril flare during this so i think he's starting to ramp up a little bit bit of a bit of fight or flight or certainly some pressure is happening here um and his blink rate is up at the end from from the way i look at it so i think this dna evidence idea is one of the things that can get him ramped up now is that because there isn't any good dna evidence or is it because there is and he knows there would be i i just don't know but certainly it's a hot point for him uh and that's uh that's that's interesting to see uh greg what do you got yeah great great catch i'm gonna now turn into interrogation instructor greg and say if you're asking are you did you will you those are called leading questions and it means you're projecting the answer you want from the person and gives them the ability to walk away good questions should elicit a narrative response meaning the person tells you something so i don't say do you believe this i'd say tell me about the dna that's it end let them talk whatever they say is a trap then so he's given an out there now i will also tell you this one's conflicting for me i agree with scott dead on there can't be and when he stops short i'm amazed there can't be because i was not there or something else here's what i say if i'm an interrogator i'm sitting across the table and say chase your dna was found here you say there can't be i'll say why not because i want to know i'm going to keep digging so she fell short like i said she's no interrogator but that's okay her questioning she is actually putting pressure on his story unlike most people i've seen he here's the other problem for me there's congruency in his story in that he goes to internal conversation and he's shaking his head and doing what he should do but his blink rate increases dramatically and i agree with you when you get to the dna he's now doing 15 he's got 15 blinks across 30 seconds and most of it in the second half that makes me wonder so i'm conflicted here i want to believe him because he's congruent he falls short she lets him have an out and then his blink rate goes through the roof so i want to know why this is a why question for me of all of them this is so far the least concerning except for that issue you bring up scott he doesn't say look i didn't do it it can't because i didn't do it now he's told this story a million times he's been in jail now i don't 17 years 18 years something like that he's probably told the story a million times maybe he just is done telling the story but this is the one that is the hardest for me to reconcile so with that um i think it's chase right yep so i i think it's interesting his lack of belief is secondary to his denial of commission but if we go back her question says do you believe that she specifically asked that and in interrogations there there is a place i think what greg was talking about in this instance we need something that produces a narrative but there's a definite place for some closed-ended questions there sure and if you imagine i'm holding a giant box full of money and i will mail it to your house if you can figure out the right open-ended question to determine how much money is in it so i mean once we get down to details what time was it those kinds of things that's when we need those closing questions and those aren't leading those are not leading leaving is yes no those are if it's a yes or no question the only purpose we use for those in interrogation is to redirect the conversation or to cut a conversation short that's it that's it and i think it's interesting mark talked about his nostrils flaring he starts getting heated a little bit i think it's worth noting that his chin also drops down and he starts looking up a little bit the moment that he starts speaking about this other guy her fiance and even though there was they said there was dna evidence do you believe that no i don't know don't absolutely they can't be i mean what i do know is that the very person that supposedly had maintained those cases is david board and he's no longer on the police force from what i understand but uh i don't i think that there's at least that needs to be looked into as well because i don't believe that okay which one is this from five uh this is five yeah um sorry to go back but just so i can ask you so your attorney gave me you know how we were talking about the dna you didn't believe it was yours did you even know these women who you were indicted for well one was a 12 year old no and then the other vivian a har bottle absolutely not i don't know these people i never saw these people until that trial what about the woman who claimed you attacked her in her truck who testified in the sentencing phase you talked about you talking about you were never charged for that but she testified in the sentencing phase is that linda's linda schluter is that london [Music] i didn't know any of those people except for the mother my kids uh carol connie there was only three people that i knew the vivian and that the 12 year old you talking about who were the names of the people you knew what were their names he said carol carol connie connie girl i was charged and those charges were dropped and dismissed right connie i went to trial with connie's case and uh with her allegations rather and i was acquitted that was the time when i don't know i was young i was getting ready to go to the olympics well preparing to go to the olympic trials and all that basically shattered shattered those dreams okay greg what do you got yeah this was an interesting one um when she starts talking about the 12 year old girl he has a demonstrative no what i would expect no i mean very aggressive but right after that he starts this head bobbling thing that's awkward when people are saying no all the time and they're or they're saying yes and then suddenly they start bobbing their head a little there's a red flag for me i want to know why are you bobbing your head and i might actually in an interrogation later and say you got something wrong with your neck because interrogation is a rude business i would lean over and ask a question now i might also be the nice guy and let or be the bad guy and let chase come in and be the nice guy he's kind of a jerk and but that head bobbing thing is suddenly odd um and then he does some requests for guys every time he edits i'm telling you every time he edits his story that brow goes up every time he asks something that sounds a little fishy to me that brow goes up if it only happens one time no biggie but this is consistently happening which is why i'm concerned he drops his chin to cover his throat and brow beats her at and does that whole false confusion thing when in fact they're talking about the woman that caused him to be caught up in this case the woman who claimed that he raped her who was there in the sentencing now i'm going to say this i can't remember the woman's name but she didn't testify at my sentencing and get me the death penalty i would probably remember a person who did that and i don't think i'd have to say are you talking about this he knows who she's talking about there's a pause and then he goes on about he's using that whole pause thing that whole confusion piece just to give himself time to think now do i think he's lying about killing the woman don't know do i think he's covering up something absolutely i think there's something in here that needs some digging and understanding and the woman he's talking about just for your knowledge go look her up um claim that he raped her in her truck he got in her truck asked her for ride when she gave him a ride he asked her for sex she said no he bashed her head in the steering wheel and then raped her that's the story and now you don't go into details because i don't know all the details but that's the person then he moves into this piece and he chooses to talk about the case after whatever she was asking him the original question was and he doesn't talk about the rapes or any of that he starts talking about the case again and he moves to i was young that sounds like an excuse that sounds a lot like an excuse and then a redirect and i was working on going to the olympics that's holy ground to americans hey i was i was a good kid i was going to olympics that's taking yourself back to i was a good kid i didn't do anything wrong oh yeah i might have done some stuff wrong but that was back when i was trying to go to the olympics that always i want to know why that came up not at all related to the story did you rape anybody well i was getting ready for the olympics okay and did you rape anybody it just it automatically makes me want to know why again this doesn't mean he raped or killed anybody it just makes me want to know why you're taking holy ground there and why you're saying but i was young then has nothing to do with it chase what do you got yeah agree with everything so far that's uh brilliant you guys have hit a lot of this stuff i think the i was young is a justification statement with nothing after it and the i'm going to the olympics or i was training for the olympics is a resume that comes right after it just to build up his credibility but we see strong eye blocking when he's talking about knowing vivian and we see more strong eye blocking when he's talking about the involvement with connie and i want you to pay attention the moment he mentions this 12 year old person we see a massive eye flutter downward eye movement internal dialogue followed with an eye flutter and i'll pass it over to you more yeah so i got a big problem with this which is um you know on top of everything that's been said so far what i see uh after the mention of the 12 year old girl and when he's saying or just before when he says no which does sound quite emphatic although there are some strange cadences up the front of it that i wouldn't expect with anything so emphatic it doesn't just go flat and down it kind of goes up down and flattened down i'm a bit worried by that what i'm more worried by is i don't think it's a look of a it doesn't feel like a look of approval to me at the start it seems like a look of an eyebrows for doing recognition it's a lot subtler but the eyes just open the eyebrows go up a touch and it seems to me like recognition before he then does an eye block and then when the when the 12 year old is mentioned again later on um again he does what i s seems to me to be a look of recognition now is it recognition that he's internally he's going yes i did that or recognition of okay here's the 12 year old girl idea again i don't know but i'd want to dig a little bit deeper into that because i want to know why that this 12 year old girl has that effect on him and then we go into these these looks of concern and leaning in which again feel like a massive red flag for me as he starts to help the interviewer now all the same the interviewer is either disorganized or could be playing disorganized i think there's a good uh there's a it could be a good strategy now and again to play this organization so you can win over some help from whoever you're interviewing and get them talking more could be one or the other but certainly he complies with the idea of of being you know wondering what's going on and trying to be as helpful as possible in this situation again that's a red flag for me uh i i don't like fight at this this video at all don't like it at all not happy with it there that's what i got scott we heard from you not yet all right so here's here's what bothers me about this as we go from talking about like you guys were talking about earlier talking about somebody indebted him for rape all the way tyler's going to be a boxer on all the stuff that happens in between there i mean that's the the juxtaposition of you're a rapist and then you're going to it might be going to the olympics unbelievable how he squirms his is his way gets his way through there um there's a girl named lisa hesley when i was in high school i was in love with her i had the biggest crush on her and i'm not going to say the other two girls names these other two girls said i threw stuff at her but it wasn't me but i know the guy who did but they said it was me and i remember their names i remember those two girls to this day i remember their names so i think if this guy was in court and and chase you know how it is you've been in court when when uh something you've worked and you look at somebody and and you're they're up there on the stand and they're getting after your guy or your guy's getting up to that guy especially if they're getting after your guy you remember that person's name i remember those people's names when i go do that so this is this is not he remembers those people again falls back to his not having told the truth before i think in here and i think we're just seeing i'm not going to go into the details since everybody's covered him but we're not seeing honesty here because he would remember those people and that when he freezes at the beginning you see those those eyes get big you see those whites of his eyes as he's frozen and she's she's once he realizes she's asking about those boy he locks right in on her he knows exactly where she's going with it and when she says do you know them he's like nope so that really that bugs me doesn't mean he's a murderer doesn't mean he murdered that girl but i think he remembers those people and remembers their names just like those girls who said i do that stuff at least hashtag i know i didn't it wasn't me it's john shannon um sorry to go back but just so i can ask you so your attorney gave me you know how we were talking about the dna you didn't believe it was yours did you even know these women who you were indicted for well one was a twelve-year-old no and then the other uh vivian a har bottle and absolutely you know i don't know these people i never saw these people until that trial what about the woman who claimed you attacked her in her truck who testified in the sentencing phase you talking about you talking about um you were never charged for that but she testified in the sentencing phase is that linda's linda [Music] i didn't know any of these people except for the mother my kids uh carol connie there was only three people that i knew the vivian and the 12 year old you talking about who were the names of the people you knew what were their names he said carol carl uh connie connie girl i was charged and those charges were dropped and dismissed right connie i went to trial over connie's case and uh with her allegations rather and uh i was acquitted that was the time when i don't know i was young i was getting ready to go to the olympics well preparing to go to the olympic trials and all that basically shattered shattered those dreams all right we good great and so one thing and talking to your attorney he said he talked to you this morning as well he was going to talk to you the only thing that concerns him is those other sex assaults you were indicted for that you have maintained your innocence on as well he said that's the only thing that concerns him what about you how do you feel knowing those indictments are still hanging out there well that stuff is not true i feel that if that would have been true they would have tried me on that stuff you know i'm saying that it's just not true it's something that they brought up right before my trial because there was nothing in my background that they could use to give me the death penalty and i think they just brought something up just a bad and i don't know all right uh greg what do you got yeah i don't have a whole lot on this one but i will say his blink rate is high in this one i think i counted 13 14 and 40 seconds that stuff if is not true if that stuff is true why wouldn't they try me for that well they're trying for capital murder is why they wouldn't try you for that because then they come convolute and make a mess all of us who work around legal system lawyers know that you got to be careful how you take something to court or you get it thrown out and right so that they're going to be very careful with that they did i think they charged them with two counts of murder one for just murder and one for murder during sexual assault or something but he takes a deep breath in there as he goes to internal conversation at one point that makes me want to say what's that about nothing else really big i mean i expect him to say exactly what he says there look i didn't do anything that's not true and he does use a contraction that stuff is not true i mean he doesn't use a contraction sorry that stuff is not true we all we often say most people say it's not true it isn't true is what most people would say so i nothing here no smoking gun for me maybe i'm missing something um with that mark i'd hand it to you uh yeah no i've got got a huge amount on this i think what this is about for me is somebody who's who's locked into this system in their mind and may well be locked into a system as well what i see is acceptance discomfort and then resignation and i think the resignation comes at the end around the idea of the death penalty i think that's the trajectory that i'm seeing him going through and i think this is why it leads on we'll see in the next video to to uh or maybe the one after but there's some talk i think it is the next one uh talk about being locked into it into a system that that there's there's he's trapped essentially so for me acceptance then there's discomfort and then there's resignation that's all i got for you chase what do you got what's the difference between not true and didn't happen i would say in psychology when we're speaking that's a big difference and what's the difference between a lack of evidence and it didn't happen and it seems to suggest that he's more focused on truthfulness based on evidence than whether or not there was a commission of a crime and we see something here straight out of the uh interrogation handbook of of john reed which is a failure to make a confident positive denial of any of these things and i'll i'll just leave that there uh scott what do you got he got most of mine dang it okay anyway um when he says i didn't do any of that and he keeps calling it stuff he didn't say i didn't rape anybody if you get in there and they're talking to you about this stuff you're not gonna call it think i'm i got in trouble for some stuff got trouble for rape i didn't rape that's the first thing out of your mouth should be i didn't rape anybody i'm not a rapist i didn't do that he doesn't go back in the defense of hold on man you're talking about rape he says and they said he refers to the rapes and assaults both all that as something and the other one says stuff um but he seems calm like none of this stuff's bothering him but i think that goes back to preparing for that and try it where he's like he's a master of deflection and redirection where he's trying to be calm so no attention is brought to that so he can scoot right on and kind of blow it out of the way and move forward um there's so many things going on that say he's that for sure he's not being honest about a lot of things you know that that's that's the part that bothers me most here everything i was um some of most of the things i was gonna talk about got covered there's that's the big one that bothers me is he refers to rape and assault as something and stuff you want to clean it up right there and say wait a minute i didn't rape anybody they said i raped these girls no and you go back into the into the no i didn't do it part of it you've seen that a hundred times when you're when you're leaning to somebody for that that's that's that's the road they go down that's the road you and you know it so you push them down that road and they go and then and then you have your steps you go from there i don't i don't know i don't this really bothers me that's that's the part when he calls it something and stuff so well i think this is a great example right each of us sees something that causes us to red flag and and it's different things if it were one thing and we all jumped on it we're all hammers on one nail we'd be different but guys for my taste this guy needs some attention and i don't mean by every celebrity on earth saying whatever but i think it's worth scrutinizing and looking do i think the guy deserves a death penalty based on all the confusion no i mean i'd love to see and i dug for tape of this woman's fiance it appears this woman just surrounded herself with chaos and bad news now whether she did intentionally that's not whatever poor woman she ended up dead on the side of a road and there's chaos and stuff surrounding her at every turn if he was involved with her okay but i'd love to see video of this police officer who was later indicted charged and served ten years or nine years something like that in prison for rape i'd love to see video with him too so we can try to figure out what's going on all we're doing is basing it on what we see here and all of us are seeing red flags that's the problem didn't he kill himself the the police officer or did he kill himself so i don't i don't remember no oh this is guys you want to go a made for tv movie people who've been involved in investigating this have killed themselves there are all there's all kinds of i mean go look at the body count around this thing it's chaos and a mess the real accusation and the real the reason there's so much celebrity behind this is because they're they're accusations that this guy framed rodney for rape and murder because because he killed her he threatened rodney and said you're going to pay for this there's also parts in there where he this guy later admitted he had or told an aryan brotherhood guy while he's in prison he had to kill her because she was having sex with a black guy not in those words much harsher nastier words and so this is a mess this is a horrific case there's nothing good for me seeing all of this i i had hoped to just turn here and go yeah that guy's not guilty boom he said be heroes and say let's help because that's why i started looking at the case now if we go pick another video you're going to see a very different approach that's what's interesting yeah let's next one let's do this let's do it next week let's do the five year one next week so you can see the difference okay all right that's what we'll do and so one thing and talking to your attorney he said he talked to you this morning as well he was going to talk to you the only thing that concerns him is those other sex assaults he were indicted for that you have maintained your innocence on as well he said that the only thing that concerns him what about you how do you feel knowing those indictments are still hanging out there well that stuff is not true i feel that if that would have been true they would have tried me on that stuff you know i'm saying that it's just not true it's something that they brought up right before my trial because there was nothing in my background that they could use to give me the death penalty and i think they just brought something up just too bad and i don't know all right be good yeah let's move along where are you going to say chase i will say that what what greg was talking about of replacing the words we could call that psychological distancing or severity softening i have seen many cases where a person who is innocent was exposed to the gruesomeness of a crime scene is less likely to use harsh words stab murder rape kill those kinds of things because of the trauma that they went through they soften it in their brain but there's typically a very distinctive difference in all of the other behaviors to where those things just stand out as an outlier type of behavior okay right we talk all the time about when you find a body there's no place in your brain to put that information unless you've been involved in the murder those kinds of things scott and i talk about it in the true crime workshop and when your brain has a box to put stuff in it treats it differently than when it doesn't and that's the reason they're avoiding the word when they've done it because they don't want to recall that word and and it pulls up all the other details with them but if they're avoiding it for other reasons like they've seen the body and they're horrified and it was somebody they loved or cared about yeah it's a different different approach and you've been asked this a dozen times throughout the year but you've got new audiences along the way new generations for instance i wasn't reporting back in 1996 and i wasn't in austin at the time but why is it you who did not do the crime you did not hurt stacy tell me why you know it wouldn't have been you excuse me it wasn't you it wasn't me absolutely not it had nothing to do with it now you know like you mentioned the new generations a lot of it i mean it's been 18 years 19 years almost you know since her death it's been about 17 years since i've been locked up a little over 17. the things that i know now if i knew then i wouldn't be locked up and but the things that i do know now it kind of bothers me to the point to where you know this it's the system this very same system that has me locked up and on death row is the very same system that's out there watching over our children uh mark what do you got yeah so i guess look you know if you looked at it you could kind of go hey there was a really good denial in that you know it wasn't me but look what led up to that the the questioner here and and i think it's fair to say this is not this is a moment a really really bad interviewing i'm sorry to say but we get um tell me why you didn't do it and then it progress because he says nothing which is good resistance you know i would say just says nothing she she crumbles first by then reiterating the question and it develops and develops until she finally says it wasn't you and he says it wasn't me i mean what what a brilliant reading brilliant progression i mean it's just extraordinary so go back and watch that as as as what not to do um uh what was the other thing oh the other thing is the logic uh at the end so here's the logic that he's playing at the end from my point of view he's suggesting that if you agree that children are unsafe at the moment and most parents will oft will always go oh yeah i think children are you know child safety is a real concern he's saying well the same system that causes those children to be unsafe is the same system that has locked him up and put him on death row and so therefore you can't trust your children are unsafe because you can't trust the system that looks that's meant to look after them therefore the system that incarcerated him put him on death row can't be trusted either it's a wonderful piece of of false uh logical what we call crooked thinking uh there brilliantly uh executed um that's what i got for you chase what do you got yeah i think we clearly hear the reporter use the word murder several times he doesn't use it once he uses the word her death and this is what we call severity softening and when he says i've been in here for 17 years close to 19 years we see his first really good data recall so where his eyes look up and to his left we see that and now we can retroactively go back so what else have we asked him about data where were you at 3 a.m on this evening did we see that same little recall movement did he look in the same direction the answer is no and this goes up into his left for his data recall or what whatever the the greg term is for it and there's a drastic failure to answer one of the critical classic interrogation questions why not you why wouldn't you have done something like this and there's some there's some really good interrogation questions that are part of the interview before the interrogation begins why wouldn't you have done this who might have done this did you tell your friends and family about this when it happened there's some some ways that interrogators can maybe trick you into revealing whether or not you're guilty or innocent and then start the interrogation if you don't answer those questions the right way this is a great one why wouldn't you have done this and in an innocent person's response there's a there's myriad ways that it could be answered but you would typically hear something like i would never do this we had a relationship i respected her i'm not a rapist i'm not a murderer i'm not a killer all of those kinds of things might be acceptable but we're missing we're missing that in this piece here greg yeah so let's go back a couple of things you're the the absolute positive affirmation of of lack of guilt there's none of that there's no there's not a person saying i didn't do this look he waits to your point mark he regurgitates something she says it's an echo his what's interesting is he has a recognition flash when she says why isn't it you and then suddenly boom oh it isn't me and used her exact words there's a reason why he has not been accessing because he's not answering questions he's telling a story and i don't mean he's making up something i forget that for a minute i'm not saying he's lying i'm saying he's just simply not answering questions he is telling a story and his story has little to do with the question most of the time he's saying look i was i was railroaded okay got it you're railroaded now answer the question that's the way i respond to people when somebody when i ask them a question they say you don't understand i was mistreated i got it you were mistreated now where's the money you know i just jump past all that but i'm an interrogator not a reporter it's a very different mindset what's interesting is once he goes to that she feeds him the information he regurgitates it then he let's make this about something else he turns it now to holy ground is what i call what he's doing he's plowing new holy ground he avoids the question entirely and just doesn't bother to answer it that's evasion guys that all the red flags here came from me when i watched this video because that's evasion that's how you get away from questions if you ask me i mean you could ask me where was i on tuesday hey have you seen my watch that's the same thing he's doing it's just not that blatant he's turning it into the system okay we get it you feel you've been railroaded answer the questions and we'll help you that makes sense scott what do you got i'm with chase he didn't say i didn't do it i'm not a murderer i did i'm not a rapist i didn't do this i'm telling you there's there's there's no pushback on that nothing at all on that yeah that's that's all i got i think we got everything covered on that one let me just add one more thing in which i saw in my notes down here but after he does um say uh it wasn't me he then recovers his breathing and coughs afterwards there's no other place in this video where i see him having to recover breathing and do a cough of some sort afterwards you know obviously people coughing that doesn't mean they're lying to you or but it stands out across this video this is the only time we've seen him do this so it makes me feel like it was an extra effort to oh i froze him it froze in there screenshot utter distaste i got him there we go i got him before he got off wow that was good um your note you saw something in your notes oh should i just repeat that again yeah we'll start halfway through because i want to keep that [Laughter] all right coming back to you i don't know whether i've got any more to say on it which is which is just yes uh it it doesn't mean you're lying if you cough it's just that's the only time that we've seen him do it he it would make me suspect that it was an effort for him to say those words and he's then having to uh compensate for that afterwards and and you know re-center himself get his balance after that get his breathing in check that that's what i that's what i got for you and you've been asked this a dozen times throughout the year but you've got new audiences along the way new generations for instance i wasn't reporting back in 1996 and i wasn't in austin at the time but why is it you who did not do the crime you did not hurt stacy tell me why you know it wouldn't have been you excuse me it wasn't you it wasn't me absolutely not it had nothing to do with it now you know like you mentioned the new generations a lot of it i mean it's been 18 years 19 years almost you know since you're dead it's been about 17 years since i've been locked up a little over 17. the things that i knew now if i knew then i wouldn't be locked up and but the things that i do know now it kind of bothers me to the point to where you know this it's the system this very same system that has me locked up and on death row is the very same system that's out there watching over our children let's move on yeah and so um i mean now with this new audience what would you say to the public now i guess what are you looking forward to most that gets out during trial what's most important that people know about this case and you about this case and you and me i mean if you had any opportunity to say anything i want you to have a platform to tell me i'm innocent i'm absolutely innocent of this and i have to live here 17 years i've got kids now my my parents are getting older you know and i've got grandkids yeah and they're getting older too getting big you've seen them yes all right greg what do you got yeah so i'm gonna go full circle guys remember in the beginning i talked about the guy etching his face or having residuals about asking for approval when he says i am absolutely innocent his forehead is up this is why i've got this feeling this guy needs some conversation we need to talk to him then he starts to shift gears and he goes to holy ground but all the stuff that we've talked about one one other his internal conversation you want to know where it's at here's proof positive she asked him a question that requires you to talk to yourself to answer it she asked him what would you want other people to know ding down left so every time we go back and we look at him answering a question where he goes ding guess what he's having an internal conversation he's not responding in a way that is factual he's telling you what he's analyzed that doesn't mean he's lying necessarily it means you ask me where was i on tuesday and i go i wonder why they're asking me that that's an internal conversation too but typically factual people respond quickly give you an answer and they don't have to think about why they're going to tell you something so it goes to internal conversation good baseline says hey here's what people need to know then he goes i am absolutely innocent that is a red flag because the way he's used his brow in the past when he's editing his conversation or when he's changing things so now i really want to know and he's using your word against scott absolutely so innocence is like unique it doesn't need a qualifier that's all i got okay chase what do you got chase what do you got so we see some severity softening here when he says i'm innocent of this which is a unusual phrase and why does the interviewer have to basically force him to pronounce his innocence and we see that here in this question and there's no anger about the incarceration granted it's been it's been a long time but he doesn't say i've been locked up here i had it's not i've been falsely imprisoned here it's i've been living here for 17 years which i think is an unusual phrase for someone trying to communicate to the world that this system that keeps your children safe is what got me here in the first place and i'm innocent uh scott what do you got i agree with you guys he says absolutely again he doesn't say i didn't kill i want everybody to know i didn't kill this girl i'm not a murderer that would be it period i'd shut my mouth at that point you know that's all that's really all i got but but i but i agree with you good we can after watching his baseline uh greg's point to all that you know it's it's hard to uh go in with the the old nlp you know eye movement stuff but the way greg you explain this stuff as we go along that not everybody goes to the same place as that the nlp thing was on the right track they just didn't finish the research on it didn't didn't go any further than what they talked about right in that little group or however that worked yeah every eye movement every person is going to go somewhere in their head and if i ask you enough questions i can determine roughly where you're going and look for deviations all we're talking about this is baseline guys just like when i say well he did this because i know where what he was doing then you ask i ask you a question hey what do you think mickey mouse will look like in 2900 a.d then your your eyes are going to drift around you're going to think about it you have some internal conversation you might access some visual cue but it's not that you're going to go ding ding ding ding ding ding ding you're going to go where you go and and everybody's going to be a little different so anyway i i think yeah we can't say that a person goes here because of this but you can clearly say when he was having an internal conversation his eyes drifted down to his left we saw it yeah okay mark what do you got yeah so not a lot more than what you've said there but what interests me about this is again he avoids the question on about his own feelings about what people should know about him rather than the case he seems kind of confused or or perturbed by by talking about the idea of talking about himself an element of that feels to me like it's you know like when you get involved in some really terrible podcast and the interview is just asking you just you know bad questions and you're tired it's the third one you've done today and it's like oh not the question of you know you know what what are the what's the top piece of body language for telling if somebody's a liar it's like oh god do i have to answer that one again it feels a little bit like that to me uh but i think also there is an element there of not wanting to reveal how he feels any kind of self-reflection about himself i can totally understand that the guy's in prison um this will get broadcast the other inmates will see that he's got to put up a certain front a certain face i i would imagine um you know though he's you know he's a handy lad uh i'm sure you know he's still having to survive himself and he's he's on death row and and you know that must have a huge psychological effect on you and maybe not wanting to reveal the fears that you you have inside you around that that uh you know potential death in the future so um so yeah just again we circle back to this idea of avoiding the feelings and avoiding the self-reflection that's kind of interesting to me but more than that i don't have yeah and so um i mean now with this new audience what would you say to the public now or i guess what are you looking forward to most that gets out during trial what's most important that people know about this case and you about this case and you and me i mean if you had any opportunity to say anything i want you to have a platform to tell me i'm innocent i'm absolutely innocent of this and i have to live here 17 years i've got kids now my my parents are getting older you know and i've got grandkids yeah and they're getting older too getting big you've seen them yes i saw them all right well there you have it that's the uh breakdown of the rodney reed interview of this one we're gonna do another one next week now let's go around the room and see what everybody thinks about um what we've seen and how they feel about what what's probably going to happen next mark you want to go first yeah the biggest red flags for me well the biggest one is this the 3am piece where were you what were you doing uh some some definition around that and because there is no definition around that it feels very odd for me i'm sure everybody will be able to list in the comments below all the reasonable reasons and and educate me around that but for me just on this video that alone is a huge red flag along with all the rest i'm sure other people will talk about chase what are your thoughts yeah i think this was a deceptive interview all in and i none of us here gathered a ton of evidence we didn't analyze police files we analyzed an interview and we're not analyzing the evidence or determining truth or guilt were determining whether or not the interview was truthful straightforward and honest and in my opinion it wasn't greg yeah guys when i started looking for videos i was looking for something with the innocence project to say look maybe we can contribute something i really want this guy to be innocent because of death row he's got a state of execution maybe indefinite at the moment but i don't see it here i don't there's something am i saying he is guilty of murder no but there's a lot of red flags here that make me want to dig in and say why the why piece is how people end up here now all of you can write in the comments we don't know we're talking about whatever we all are saying the same thing we're not we didn't discuss this we didn't come in here and say hey let's say this guy did this we simply looked at this and there's places where these guys saw things i didn't see i wat when i watched the other video we'll watch next week we'll talk about what we see there but guys at the end of the day this is what we see based on this video based on the questions asked if we were controlling the conversation if we got the chance to go talk to him we might see something different because we would control the conversations not feed him information he could bounce back at us and those kinds of things this is as much art as science we'll all tell you that we have to look at what we get and we go from there so join us pay attention go do your own homework look at this guy where he's sitting do i think that i would like to know this guy was executed with no more information i have absolutely not and i think a lot of people have called for that now if i were his the the woman's family how would i i don't know but without enough evidence to make me feel like somebody should be executed never mind my opinion on death penalty or not this is a complex case and we're just trying to add more texture to what we see scott right i agree with you 100 because we're not here to we're not here to judge the guy and say he's guilty or innocent but we're just here to say it to tell you like greg and mark was saying we're just showing you what we see we're explaining what we see so we're not saying he's he's a murderer he's not a murderer personally i don't think there's enough here that says he killed that girl you know he doesn't seem to from my point of view just from watching the the uh interviews i've seen that the two that i've watched he doesn't have any hallmarks of a psychopath at all he's talking about feelings he really is experiencing feelings i believe it sometimes it takes up to a year to be able to diagnose a true psychopath but from just looking at him from you know across the room going is that guy one or not trying to spot one i'd say no so we're not dealing with a murderer a guy who's doing it out doing that all the time i think he he in his life in the life that he was leading at the time i think he actually stepped in some poop and i think he he is paying for that now because once you once you start hanging around in different groups or there's a lot of stuff going on that shouldn't be going on sometimes you'll step in it and i think he did i think that's what we're looking at here i didn't see anything that said that showed me that he was a murderer i just saw a lot of red flags that said i'm not telling the truth on a lot of stuff a lot of a lot of a lot of different uh questions especially going back to what mark said that those those things those things bother me um but those things they're supposed to bother you so that's okay but i i don't think we're looking at a murder situation here having said that it's we don't know enough i i don't think we have enough information on whether say he did that or not from what i've seen and what i can tell whether he killed her or not i don't think she i don't think he should be killed you know although he's on death row i don't think there's enough to show that he's a they killed that girl so well and scott for me this is a thing i said to you yesterday when you say somebody's not a murderer we can't tell that from looking at this and what you mean as a professional murderer versus because what kind of people kill people people kill people all kinds of people kill people murders of passion murders a moment murders of hot tons of this stuff happen every day an average person you know snaps and does something stupid or horrible that i mean it happens but we can't see enough from here and what chase we can't say enough we didn't go dig into the evidence we're not we're not evidence folks we're not forensic forensic folks we're not weighing in and saying by all means he's innocent or by all means he's guilty we're saying we see things that cause us concern in this interview yeah exactly all right well thanks for watching and if you like what we're doing please subscribe and uh our shows come out on thursday sometimes wednesdays if i get them edited early enough um and click that little bell as well and they'll let you know when we have one come out so all right we good good all right see you guys next time [Music] i got hit in the mouth of the gun that's why that tooth right there you know you'll see it looks like have a gap or something in there so my tooth is cut out just hit sideways why haven't this looks like english teeth oh don't do that man don't do that oh dude don't do that what are you doing no tendons they're torn out oh yeah that a horse don't be doing that man hello

Channel: The Behavior Panel

Views: 157,832

Keywords: rodney reed case, rodney reed case dr phil, stacey stites, rodney reed, rodney reed trial, the rodney reed case, jimmy fennell, rodney reed dr phil, the truth about rodney reed case, rodney reed case documentary, rodney reed innocent, rodney reed interview, dr. phil, innocence project, rodney reed is guilty, stacey stites case, capital punishment, texas, rodney reed updates, body language analysis, body language, true crime, the innocence project, fox news, dr phil

Id: VB9jUtoPNq4

Length: 87min 59sec (5279 seconds)

Published: Wed Jan 06 2021