Carole Baskin The Tiger King Body Language Analysis

we're assuming everyone knows who we are what we do let's let's just go through really quickly and I'll pretend like we just came on I'll save so here's what we're doing today and let's say right it's go around the room and introduce themselves real quick just and just give a few little you know quick thing about who you are and what you do that way I can put it back at the top so that's where I'll go let me get started see this when I think about mark and stuff like this cuz this just like the acting part where you get Scott rouse and I'm about expert analysts that trained law enforcement the military and interrogation and body language and today we're gonna be talking to some of the foremost body language experts and interrogators in the world and we're gonna go through the parts of the tiger King and and give our thoughts on some of the body language things were saying we're not saying somebody's guilty or somebody's innocent even though that may come we may say that during this we're not making a statement as if this is this is a guilty person or this is an innocent person we're just talking about what you want to talk about my role and this is gonna be sort of the the curator a narrator the person who's throwing around the room to talk and stuff so my part won't be a big part in talking about what I think about stuff I'm gonna be talking about some things but not a whole lot because somebody's got to drive and maybe next time somebody else will but so let's let's go around the room and TR Greg yeah I was an army interrogators their eyes got started the whole body language or behavior thing today I'm a body language behavior guy and I work in the corporate side of things and just got to point what we're doing here is looking for a baseline and a deviation and trying to see behind the mask for these people what they're thinking there's no magic there's no glue to this is just us telling you what we see every day when dealing with people whether they're in criminal situations or corporate America or the media things that we have learned by watching and by paying attention and we all come at it for different angles so that's the best part that's a little portion here get mark hi there I'm Matt Bowden I'm an expert in human behavior and body language I've written four books on the subject I speak all over the world on how to stand out win trust gain credibility when you're communicating and I've got that book up there truth and lies which is really a book on critical thinking disguised as a book on body language so what I want to contribute to this is not only some kind of understanding around body language but also an understanding of how you can think just a little bit bigger a little bit further around human behavior and body language to get closer to what the truth and lies might be chase everybody I'm chase Hughes I did a 20 year career in the US military retired as a chief and now I develop intelligence and behavioral techniques for intelligence agencies businesses everyday people and those center around extreme end of influence and persuasion and I also teach interrogation and behavior profiling and I'm a regular trial consultant around the u.s. excellent all right we're gonna take just a real quick look at some of the video and we'll get started to Costa Rica he said to be sure and get the Costa Rica truck ready because he was leaving early early early in the morning for Miami and that was the last thing that he said to me the last thing he said to me was that he needed me to have Kenny get a truck ready because he was going early early early he said the next day to Costa Rica and that was the last I saw of him so I just don't know two things jump off the off the off the picture there me number one you have to go way back to Desmond Morris in the beginning of all this mess we all study for the first know that you learn right pushing your tongue out of your teeth and that being a distasteful subject they're asking her about something that she's supposed to be telling the truth and she's doing that that's a red flag for me first off but the other one that's more telling is the engagement she has in the two different pieces when she's in soliloquy she's back in regurgitating data when she's trying to convince she's engaged pay attention to her throughout all of her videos even in the crack thing we were talking about earlier this okay so to to jump off the table to me immediately so what are you seeing Jason so I saw after she said I never threatened my husband right at the very beginning we see something immediately after that called lib compression squeeze the lips together and in all of my trainings I teach very simple principles and I teach lib compression is almost always withheld opinions and that's I just give it that that two word example and we'll see some body language experts if I say that's that's deceptive I disagree it may be it may be deceptive when it's mixed with something else but if if I was there in that conversation I would act like there's something being withheld here I need to ask more questions so it doesn't reveal very much but we are seeing that there's something being withheld for sure from my end and I think the the up right movement of her eyes in both videos as she's saying early early early there's a chasin case if you go back and look at her eye movement sorry to step on you but you go back and look at her eye movement in the cracked thing she's a right I access cue for memory almost directly until you get her into a later video that will bring up but I agree with you the compression of lips is containment that's all it is and I agree you can't say this is a lie because she pushes our tongue out something just too tasteful there but the red flags right the things to make you one absolutely yeah if I was doing the interview that would be same and some people would say this repetitive words maybe a memorized or some kind of a scripted thing that she had rehearsed and and some people are saying she shows no sympathy which she does later which I'm sure will probably get to that video but in all reality if you inter interview somebody 15 20 years after a death occurred they're probably not going to show that much sympathy mark we talked about earlier about an interrogation in in our world we have things where we have things we call it when we see somebody who's we've got a rehearsed answer they answer they've told the same story for a long time what are you seeing there that tells you this has been coming from the background you're coming from and you and and from presentations and from acting as well what are you seeing in here that that tips you her story may be a story that she's stolen over and over and over yeah let's pick up this early early early thinkers because either that son think that her husband used to say either he used to say I'm going early early early and she's doing an impersonation of him or maybe a mockery of of him that's that's a possibility but the first the first well that's no 2nd time around I think she talks about Kenny Kenny doesn't show up in the first version so there's some discrepancy as to you know who was meant to be getting the truck together is it her or or or Kenny you know so that's kind of interesting somehow the script has changed slightly and then what I noticed in that second later version of it on early early early is there's for me and I roll so there's a sense of disdain maybe there now or contempt now is that disdain and contempt for her husband and the idea of early early early he's always wanting to go early early early I are there he is again with his early early early that's the thing that'll get him killed it's always up early flying up flying a plane or is it contempt and disdain for Hearst her own story that she's created it's like man I'm doing this script again I should have got a better script together I have to say this early early early thing every time now because that's what I did on the original news interview now I don't know the answer to that but it brings up interesting questions around what's really going on here is an impersonation is it a mockery is it disdain for the husband is it disdain for the story that she may have created which one is it now I don't know you're squishing around over there Greg buddy got you I think all of these are red flags and if you were in our interrogation where we would say time for micro interview time to focus on that this thing I said earlier chase if we could control the questioning we've much better outcome because there are there a lot of trail offs in this thing there are many places at the back she changed her story that there in terms of who was there the other one that's interesting to me that doesn't come up anytime in this video is she called and reported him missing like 48 hours after he disappeared although he was gone to somewhere to Costa Rica mmm-hmm well did some I miss that right why didn't you go and say why are you calling a reporting I'm missing isn't he in Costa Rica right me is a missing point that no one's digging into in the story we don't get the chance to control that conversation not even that the local sheriff has discussed that point and I will say something about what what Mark said about the story facts changing where she's kind of adding to it later in in my world of interrogation in some instances if you ask if I asked you to recall a truthful event multiple times we will add data to it and it will be truthful I mean it's stupid still obviously ask more questions but I would absolutely I would absolutely set off a red flag for me that there's something I need to pay attention to this well in the window in caveat everything we're talking about we're seeing the video they chose to give us we don't what else she said in the video and you can see it's been edited there are a couple of other later times you'll see her body language shift dramatically in two different denials and you just want to hear those last few things she said that they cut it off chase let's talk about the the propaganda thing you brought up we were texting back and forth yes I pulled out my own journal where I wrote it down by hand before I developed it but this was a program we developed for the psychological operations command to change and crystallize public opinion and Netflix followed this with as theories exactly it's a six step program and they followed it step by step to form a narrative that will make us start to view this woman a certain way and it's short and sweet so step one create a small window of doubt or uncertainty that's a step to develop doubt through targeted questions so we make making the viewer ask questions throughout the show I'm a writer I'm leaving cliffhangers which would make somebody asked a question number three introduce questions that enhance confirmation bias step three step four display information that confirms the biased s' on occasion so that way the person no matter how much information you expose them to they'll remember the confirmation bias step 5 reward the subject for having come to the conclusion or figured it out make them get a little boost of dopamine for feeling released smart and sleuthy and number six expose the subject to a negative event in order to solidify the bias at the end I think stone the based on that chase we could probably fold up this interview right now I'd be in there there's another one I would I would highly recommend that's a brilliant walk through essentially you know how you make that entertainment that changes public opinion and the only gauges people you know that entertainment now you know as as Greg said it doesn't mean somebody didn't do something but we are looking at something which is in the form of entertainment here which is why we're on good the worlds engaged in this yeah because it's great entertainment because it throws up those questions that your there's doubt and there's questions and there's confirmation and bias and yeah and here we all are wait I am a friend who is from South Georgia who said people are amazed by this because they've never lived in South Georgia they would think everything normal well I have to say I have to say that that we started watching this show and by about Episode two I was like how much this anymore because this is I've been to the States mr. this this goes on but this is just the circus that happens like the Murphy right the moment you're surprised that an ex magician keeps big cats it's like they have big cats cause they do so Greg so it keeps on topic so Greg you talked about we're texting back and forth earlier first Kelly I knew you're like if something's bugging me is the bridging she's using at the end of that second yeah soon the Varro and Shaffer you know if you know Joan of Arc Jack Sheaffer they came up with a thing they called verbal bridging I call it kiting time and chase you would call hiding time probably in your world where they use words like and then after that so and and she uses that several times nothing that's a that's a smoking gun but as I recall there a couple places she says so that was the last time I saw anything of him no she said and that was the last I saw anything of him after that early early early so I don't know what happened the last thing he said to me was that he needed me to have Kenny get a truck ready because he was going early early early he said the next day to Costa Rica and that was the last I saw of him so I just don't know so does that tell us she did something no but it shows us an opportunity to hide some information that you might actually go back after and we if we were controlling in an interview or an interrogation we would actually not allow that to pass we were going to micro interview and say let's talk about that and then let's talk about this so and figure out what happened in those few minutes and who else saw you and how did that guy who showed up in the next iteration play a role in in that discussion so leaving any stone unturned right a lot of junior or younger interrogators would hear those statements and just it makes sense to our brain to where we don't know we don't feel the need to dig into those or even question those I think it's the same for people watching the show that it helps our brain just to skip over gaps and we don't ask questions about those but absolutely we call it we call it the bridging the gaps and you know way back when when I first left the Army and became a construction manager I learn the most powerful thing I ever learned catching us and his call backward pass in construction you go forward and backward to check your plan and if you ask people that question backwards they miss time like crazy it's a wonderful tool and you can anybody can learn to do that in just a few minutes by asking same questions when you said you lived on the Colombo move right yes if you left on Tuesday but you didn't get there till Thursday how'd that work out let's go backward excellent let's watch one more this section right here real quick Dom lost his pilot's license the day after he got it so he never flew legitimately again every flight he ever did after that and there were a lot of them he was flying illegally so no he wasn't reporting he would go down over the Gulf of Mexico down underneath the level where radar picks you up if he had any kind of an accident out over the Gulf we never would have found anything she is getting rid of one of the possible outcomes and by doing that she's also saying that this could this will probably never end so the person who's interviewing me the person who's hearing me if you can almost just accept this just a little bit you'll care less about finding the outcome of the case and I will say this as a former navigator of a guided missile destroyer if you're on the surface of the ocean there is no altitude that's below radar that does not exist those missiles were wonderfully well surface so what I what I notice about about this and I know there's a lot of bellevigne a few she does is how she's trying to control this story and control how we accept it and there seems to me when she talks about you know he's underneath the radar where it picks you up and there's a nonchalance about it and her eyes go down it's like what everybody knows that well of course he was under you know everybody so it's that's just that sense of look you we all accept that there is this area where you can't get picked up on radar and what we meant to do is the audience around that's two stories go oh okay a fiction yeah and she used the word that area not the area that area which implies familiarity it doesn't mean that just because we know that radar works there that she knew that relator I'm sure that's something that you know her husband told her to sound like a badass which all of us know let us do that okay then it up being a big red flag for me anybody else got anything on that one it's blue but the partly talk about trucks about the plane crashes he had he had had several plane crashes and had really damaged himself in one of them and I don't think he was ever completely right after after that last crash I was seeing behavior in him that just didn't make any sense like he could remember things from way back when he was a kid but he couldn't remember where he was for the last five minutes and one of our volunteers came to me and said that that looked like Alzheimer's to him big centric the good word to use I got a lot here I'll let mark go first I don't think he has yet yes so I want to pick up there on the brush away of the hair on I don't think he was ever completely right okay so now now she's it's again it seems to me a sense of I want you to comply with my idea of this story I want you to comply with the idea that he was damaged after something and and I medically can can know that he's not right so what I'm gonna do is just do like a little flirt gesture there just so you'll go oh yo you're pretty well okay we'll go with your idea then because now you've got a hey little effect around you yeah humorous to me I call that in women I call that I'm just a girl they'll do that oh it looks so creepy on me but it's a flirtatious move you see it a lot on news interviews where especially with like political pundits there's a younger woman and they'll push their hair back as they're talking to the seasoned guy you see it all the time I'm with you that's a flirtatious move and it's the only adapter you really see in this whole conversation all these signals for me is she wants us to to join in with her story at this specific moment it's the important moment for her to go look agree with this bit and my suspicion is that if we agree with that bit it would mean we'd agree with a lot more of it so she's kind of worked out what a herkie Leivers either consciously or unconsciously about this story chase in the beginning she's describing the the number of crashes and she makes a break-in eye contact that's unusual for her baseline and I'm just referencing the interview she's done if you go on her Facebook page she has tons of her own personal videos and breaking the eye contact and interviews is not something she does right so she's mentioning the crashes she makes I think a four and a half second break and eye contact and then it breaks to her talking about her husband being sick it's a separate where she's not it's the second half of that where it's a separate clip and you can see very real movement in the chin boss which is also called the grief muscle which is this chin muscle right here which is grief or shame according to Eckman Eckman and so I thought that was real that looked like real emotion that the chin boss is very hard to tighten without turning your lips downward and it was president in that video in mark I'm gonna play devil's advocate here for just a minute if I was telling the truth I would also want you to believe my narrative so thank you so - you were trying to sell it but agreed but - point about a movement if you notice in every other place go watch when she's describing her father building these cages and she's accessing and she's remembering it's for buy and she's using data yes he's recalling her eyes are drifting right she uses that as an illustrator as well she'll make her points by doing this this is the only time I see her eyes go to her left as she's describing the number of accidents he had and he was getting dementia if you go back and look at it her eyes deviate from that baseline fairly significantly as well as breaking contact hundred percent agree her baseline has her doing recall of looking up into the corners and when she broke I don't know if you want to just maybe play this again in the in the final video but when she broke this time her eyes stayed towards the middle they were still focused on an object that was off-camera he had had several plane crashes and had really damaged himself in one of them and I don't think he was ever completely right after after that last crash I was seeing behavior in him that just didn't make any sense like he could remember things from way back when he was a kid but he couldn't remember where he was for the last five minutes and one of our volunteers came to me and said that that looked like Alzheimer's to him which was uncharacteristic for her and granted none of us know there could be a guy standing there with a giant poster of a tiger and trust me there's never no cat suit I'm gonna pick up on that chase yeah you're exactly right is is that people people will try and convince you of the truth as much as they're gonna convince you of our of a lie and I think the the grief could very well be real in that with if the dementia is is real then people go into grieving really early on now this could then move forward to that on the point of actual death the person isn't grieving anymore because they've already done the grieving that's all done and over with during that dealing with the partner having dementia so so you know your idea there very well might be a devil's advocate as well for the people who were saying look she shows no no grief when she's saying you know I haven't even managed to have a funeral or or anything there's no grief on her face well if dimension was involved grief may have been there wet arolea very good point incredible point that I hadn't even thought of yeah I didn't thought about that either the part that bugs me a chase you'll be able to identify with this I think as well when you have a bunch of information or when you collect some information from someone or you go to the you know the Internet or you get a bunch of or you get a new book or a bunch of papers just research and you read a whole study and you try to very quickly tell somebody about it that's what's happening what she's talking about what she's seeing in him is what she thinks is out is trying to make us think his Alzheimers her Alzheimer's when she says when everything he's broken down to two you know he he remembers what happened when he was little kid just remember what happened five minutes milk that's when the classics everyone says when they finished reading about it and you talked someone yeah I know the basics of it here's here's what Alzheimer's is I've heard that in real life too three times happily I'm almost specifically what she said I think that's what she's done I don't think somebody came to her and said here's a lot of things happening you know I thought he was that sad you guys at some illogical TV I was like a Reader's Digest version right I think that's a plausible idea that she's that's the internet version of digest of the idea rather than her giving an even more specific story so the non Reader's Digest version would be something very very specific like I remember you know talking to him one day and you know he could remember this specific but couldn't remember this specific and that was you know how do those two things correlate yeah so it's a generalized idea that she's she's giving across there so yeah I think that's good good point scooped up very good point I'll tell you if you notice when she denies any of the stuff her body language goes to that same so her eye movement or accessing cues go through that same place in these later videos when we pay attention instead of going back to her normal accessing corner when she's talking about the the grinder or the septic tank or any of that she goes back into that same space to your point earlier she's breaking from contact again clearly she didn't do all of these things so there's something normal for her in going to that space to get away from whatever that the probe is and you'll see it later that became like this wholly exciting thing that I ran him through that grinder and it's like naranjas hands also in this few notes her eyes don't move a whole lot I mean is that what you were talking about earlier chase where you don't see a lot of eye movement going hard right or hard left or hard anywhere they go a little bit to her left but not a whole lot just they're barely going back and forth is that what you were talking about yes so she instead of accessing which would look if my face is it clear here accessing would would look more like this and her eyes were just like this and kind of reports your brain when you're accessing that Scott a or a chase and I'll give you an example you know my parlor trick you know we all have one this is mine what's the fifth order the star-spangled banner' try that and you guys read my stuff there you go boom now think about the nearest Wendy's to your house and what's across the street from it yeah so you're gonna use different parts your brain in different ways I'm using our eyes to move so what I watched her do and I'm a big fan and people will tell you it doesn't work Scott actually told me the first time amendment doesn't work until we walked in the hall and I showed him on five people the same pattern it's anecdotal but it does work and when you then start to pay attention to the fact that a person's accessing all of their visual memories here so they're moving their eyes here they're moving their eyes here moving their eyes here and you ask a question about something they saw and they move their eyes here hmm something is wrong I can't tell you that why they're creating or why do you deviated from the baseline but I can tell you they've deviated and then all of our tools come to play so I movement for me is a big thing to pay attention to and it's not just that they're accessing its what are they accessing so she could be to Scott's point once you you know cover stories and you know why they don't work is because they just become repetitious rote memory and you can't sustain that in accessing and cues for rote memory are always to the left actors have to learn to get past all that into all the body language that goes with it otherwise they're just gonna stand there and recite something that they repeated over and over themselves if she's repeating something she's heard to Scott's point she's doing that the internet version of course she's repeating words that's all she's doing so she's looking left instead of remembering behaviors does that make sense absolutely yes so I think that that her break and in the beginning of the video that we saw just a moment ago was not necessarily accessing because it was a long period of looking off in the distance and talking away from the country but I'm absolutely agree with the on the eye movements and where they're placed and and stuff like that as every person is different agreed that's a baseline issue you have to figure out and into the right person let's move on to the meat grinder we had a meat grinder if you've ever seen a butcher boy meat grinder it's about that big around that became like this holy exciting thing that I ran him through that grinder and it's like I couldn't run his hands well let me jump in on this because because of all the footage that I've seen the pieces that have engaged me most is where she laughs and there's for me that I think there's four places in all the interviews that I've seen I think from the series that that she produces this laughs that on a baseline that in the 37 minute interview that I saw she only laughed twice and once was irony and the other was around connection I think she used is this laughter and you see whether eye contact as well she produces a laugh and has a look to see are you joining in are you with me there you're laughing along with me here she does it here on couldn't run his hand through the grinder much less his whole body his hands she does it on I picked up the gun held it on him and we drove around town as he talked so you laughing along as I held a guy and my husband at gunpoint when I first met him is that you know we laugh we all laughing along at that I completely zoned out I don't know where I went it just completely zone when she received some some letter she apparently loses time and she laughs at that and then there's no way I can finally say see I didn't do it there's no way that I can finally take do it and she laughs and again look it's you MERS convulses there's no way that I can finally take a month on that one and gets the interviewers very strong target eye contact I can't do it I would say to say be socially compliant join in with me do you see how we all see this the same way when we laugh it's it's it's you know if you laugh with me because we both get it we all understand in the same linguistics the same situation it's saying you're with me now argue we're laughing at this together well I look at those pieces and that piece and I go yeah I don't know I don't get it I don't see how that's funny I don't get the funniness of it I don't get it so that's you know that's notable for me I think what she's doing she's going back to her normal the way she is because she knows that's not what happened she's too relaxed talking about that if for example I were to come in and say mark you know is this the gun you use when you you know when you shot the dog and you you're gonna actually like do you know if you were relaxed about it you knew you didn't do it and you had and you'd been fairly relaxed up to that point you're not going to show anything they show stress because that gun isn't what you used to shoot the dog with if you actually shot the dog let's pretend you did I just gotta know I've never even I've never even held a gun Scott I don't know never even held a gun yeah so for that to be what actually happened I did to me I mean she looks the way she's talking nothing she does change a little bit but she's try so sure how humorous that is I think that's never if I never baselined her I would call it nervous laughter but if you baseline her you go watch the crack things that we were talking about chase that's who she is she's kind of a giggly yeah I'm feeling it's you know when she was young and that was kind of how she made her way he's giggly pushed her hair back and flirt that kind of thing it just becomes a baseline and I think to your point she's trying to draw people in whatever value there is it's worked for her over and over and over and over and so you do what you get good right I Gregg I totally agree even as an adult and if you look at her younger photo she wears these flower rings around her head which really does symbolize that type of behavior and that type of personality and with these laughs these laughter moments mark and hit it right on the head with this what I call a confirmation glance after after something happens we want to confirm the other person bought it or they're buying into the emotion that we're giving it out there's no way that I can finally take it I can't do it the sheriff in the town did confirm that the meat-grinder had left the residence months and months before the disappearance occurred so I think that we are seeing again more eye contact avoidance there's at least a 25 degree offset from the person doing the interview that she's not addressing and I think it of course the meat-grinder was not used it was it was out of the house but I think there may be some guilty knowledge here as well yeah the thing that's interesting for me and you've all done TV you know that it depends on what camera angle they're using to know some of this as well to your point earlier if they're filming here and there and they're not telling you which camera they're going to use there's all kinds of opportunity there but they break with eye contact from the primary under viewer or from the primary camera surely agree she's denying something she'll deny the next thing in a different way like the septic tank but her body language is always the same it's that giggly kind of blow it off and I think mark it's the reason you know if I dig into the social reasons of course yeah you're there creating a contract but it's what's worked over time and right and we all get good at whatever it is those grinders know but but it seems like it that we all should have seen one yeah you know what I'm talking about we're gonna grind you up into bigger pieces I can arrange that the guy in in the Popeye movies the old Popeye at the guy in Popeye who makes the little burger yeah yeah I imagined it what even if it's an even if you're you can be cut into smaller pieces before you put in it so that that's not an excuse that's the reason I laugh when she said how would you know that Greg yeah I mean it just it intrigues me is just just because the exit point is is that small doesn't mean the entrance point is in a big you know she says you know if you know one of those you know we've all seen one of those meet growing again we all know it's called a big boy everybody hand cranks they were using when they were doing or because she said I don't know if you ever seen a butcher boy cuz it could be something really small yeah all right now let's talk about now we're gonna get to the part where she talks about her brother being a I'm assuming he's a sheriff nippy details about that today if you want to hear them what do you get so I listen to an interview with the current sheriff and apparently her brother had gone on a robbery call or a burglary call and had a perp in the back seat and could not respond to her and sent a partner not his patrol partner but another sheriff so that's the reason for that confusion in the language again they chose a specific way of talking about it but I thought that interview if you watch the Nancy Grace thing she talks to the current sheriff and he says yeah records say you know of course Nancy is on him so it's a interesting okay all right cool so let's check that up the date that Don went missing the investigation indicated Carol had left wildlife on easy street to drive to a nearby store named Albertsons to pick up some milk byproducts for the cats this is at three o'clock in the morning her car broke down and Carol and ran into her brother who was accompanied by another deputy the second deputy who gave her a ride back to her home after that Carol indicated the last time that she saw her husband was just several hours later and he was never seen again you ready we'll talk about what they thought happened because they got a couple more things to go over does anybody have a thought about what you actually think happen don't we one for me is if you watch the pieced about her life and I don't remember I saw it her father was apparently a guy who did a lot of different things in his life and one of those things that seems a flight instructor that doesn't come out on the show but it does come out somewhere else well my immediate thing is well if you can need to get rid of body and their planes at your disposal and your father can fly that immediately makes me think of well maybe that's any way to get rid of a body and the reason like I was saying earlier when people spill information upfront to your point chase about trying to disqualify it well hell I would disqualify that one pretty quickly if my father could dump the body for me so that for me is my immediate thing more than one person involved okay that makes sense and maybe her brother didn't know anything about it but she knew that her brother would take care of something if anything happened yeah but in the morning to go out and pick up milk byproducts sounds a little odd and Scott and I both said yeah Clorox is the first thing what do you guys think what you think chase so I think this this goes right into the narrative I am I'm manipulating the audience I'm going to show a single point of view I'm gonna trickle in evidence without saying anything conclusive to where you feel smart for putting it together and throughout the entire time I'm gonna play a mysterious violin sound Carol and ran into her brother who was accompanied by another deputy the second deputy gave her a ride back to her after that well I mean so we're sister we're playing music that inspires suspicion in people Carol indicated the last time that she saw her husband was just several hours later and he was never seen again so we're seeing just another piece of that and some pieces are left out so they're giving you pieces to where you say oh they didn't figure that out but I did so we're thinking oh the director hadn't got that figured out but I've pieced everything together way back in our head that's what we think no we we watched the news and they say girl goes missing six hours earlier her boyfriend and her were seen having an argument outside the apartment in our head we're just presented those two pieces of information we're like oh I got it I'm filling in gaps that's what we're going to do right and I think what's interesting about about that is the bigger context here of the world of people who keep Tigers because what we do is go what are you doing out at three o'clock in the in the morning for milk byproduct like what I mean I'm in bed like that is add not that's that look they keep the breakers it's like they could be doing anything yes any truly anything the moment you go a whole bunch of target is in the back the moment you do that anything goes I'm at five o'clock I'm up at 4:30 we've got a whole bunch of clowns coming around we'd like it's you've opened up a world that we just don't understand we have no baseline some of that and I think therefore to chase his point if you're creating entertainment but fire here's some doubt here's like you've picked the right world space right it's so true that's a brilliant statement because anything's possible like what are you doing at 3:00 a.m. well that's usually when I make vests for hamsters on the internet but today I was getting some milk byproducts pretty standard marketing yeah oh yeah if you watch the other she's pretty normal when you go over to the guy we were walking around with a firearm on him and something I got pissed on by a cat shirts oh yeah another extreme and then there's another Experian and if you go back and read the guys who actually started this thing I don't think they started with Tigers in mind they were talking about monkey moms or some other kind of odd thing that we would all kind of snicker at but it's a normal life or someone yeah did you guys catch the part when that girl got her hand bitten off he's Jill exotic shows up in that paramedics back this emergency her stepmother back did you guys see that I didn't see that but I have to say I did work once with a guy a guy in the UK who had a zoom like he was he's like a version of type of you know the UK version at the time and he was working in in politics at the time anyway one of his keepers died you know got eaten by tiger he was like yeah well obviously because because it's always a lion I remembers a lion or a tiger he was like well obviously obviously you know the people wasn't was careless and that's gonna happen because that's the you know the apex predator so obviously so this is the world we were be working in a world where these people do keep big cats just go yeah well obviously they got there handy not obviously well if any one of us were really to tell real stories from somewhere in your past life those are abnormal stories too because we come from a different world which you are for analyzing people so I think whatever little niche should get into and whichever little mouth to the corner you wedge yourself into things become normal right it's the best of the worst of humans if you do it enough it just becomes normal right that's a great observation another thing about we're talking about things they're normal and things are abnormal when she's talking about when she got the death certificate let's let's let's let's take a look at that because when she talked about the death death certificate she sounds like she's a schizophrenic or something she sounds what happens to her sounds like she's got a no kisses I she had a brain tumor or something's wrong because she's got missed she got abducted by an alien as to marksburg because he's got missing time there yeah that's just go here we go there it is alright you know you start like there's a lot in there a lot in there so that shows about what's going on up here in other words so let's take a look at that and was there ever formal memorial or or funeral or anything so no one I remember the day his death certificate came I opened the letter and I just I remember looking out the window and then the next time I remembered anything it was pitch black outside it was just like I had just completely zone but that was the closest thing that I had I was gonna say chase can you kick off on this because undoubtedly you probably wrote some program that causes people to miss out time yes we I've worked on that a lot so missing time in psychology is referred to as dissociative amnesia and that's probably the episode that happened there could it be from a mental problem but one thing we noticed there that the moment that she finishes saying death certificate there is a tiny fluctuation in the upward chen boss movement I remember the day his death certificate came it's hard to see and we may need to do a replay in the final video but we'll see a little bit of grief there I remember the day his death certificate came came came I open so this was either grief or this is what we call manufacturing an alibi like something happened during those hours and I'm gonna preemptively say that I have complete amnesia for the entire event there's also an interesting when she says death this is the only time I see this body language and I'm too far from a micro gesture guy I always say somebody smarter than me does that but she bares her tooth I mean her her lip is uncharacteristically raised so that it exposes or her teeth on the right side if you watch it it's the only thing only time I see her do it in all the video I've noticed and it's just so pronounced it's it was all exit marked yes exactly like I have sided smirk a contempt kind of thing yeah yeah earlier no I was talking about you when you earlier when you talked about the facial expressions of when you were talking about facial expressions probably have contempt earlier this goes back to that yeah the only one was was the was the eye roll which is sometimes associated with disdain or can contempt one being more social than the other disdain being more social and to do with a group that you belong to more than the individual but yeah that's that's near there that showing of the of the incisor essentially to go I rip some flesh with that is interesting I want to pick up on chases point about the propaganda of this it's interesting for me thinking about what you've been saying there chases that in this moment here they choose the third set to leave the bird sounds in behind that they've got that music so no one and then they cut to just having the bird sounds as she talked about losing time I remember the day his death certificate came I opened the letter and I just I remember looking out the window and then the next time I remembered anything it was pitch black outside it was just like I had just completely zoned but that was the closest thing that I had to a memorial she's very reminiscent of that kind of hanna-barbera cartoon like I just got clumped on them and the birds tweet heading around your head it's a it's a very it's a classic kind of trope or mem to the idea of I've I've I've lost time I'm in a different world you know my brain is altered right now the other thing I'd like to ask ask all of you about is what do you see about about what I would call that kind of convulsion that happens around there's no way I can finally say see I didn't do it there's no way that I can finally take do it there's no way that I can finally say it's there's some you know double negative in in there as well but for me she she there's a a an out breath or she's trying to there's this and we breathe it there's some odd breathing pattern to try and speak she convulses right forward it's it's a and I take what everybody said about her personality and there is something new garius and big about her but that seems not well controlled to me I I agree I think that's that's what most psychologists would call a cathartic exhalation as she's just kind of getting rid of that emotion and spitting it out because she's been wanting to say that so much and she saying she's getting to say the sentence but it's couched in another one and I think that's also the reason that it became a double negative and towards the end we see the eye batting as she's wrapping up her statement and looking looking back at the person doing the interview you see a couple of batting the eyes and in her physical standing interviews you can see her doing something similar towards the end of her making a point where she does a foot tilt that some called the sassy sailor if you guys remember this from Barbara and Alan pieces book where a woman's foot will tilt outward to indicate curiosity or in an ocean or availability sometimes depending on the context but you see that and the eye batting behavior towards the end of lots of her statements hmm interesting what you talked about with the exhalation the cathartic exhalation often when I know someone has prepared a statement whether they prepared something they want to get out they will rush to get it into the right place so they can get it said or they may rush because they're afraid they don't get the opportunity and I always say cadence it's a great indicator because if a person rush is either in or out there's something that they have been working on for a while to your point notice how quickly she changed from that bubbly thing to the being depressed or bummed out really I mean it happened quick man from one right here you can see definitely that there's not much time in between it - there's that where she's all bacon bubbly there's a time that what she's down there's no way that I can finally say I can't do it she may have some of this you know that's that would explain shopping at 3:00 a.m. for milk products you know no my products I mean I I'm kind of with youth maybe there's got on it's such a big change there that I haven't seen that that extreme kind of turn on a dime in some of the other interviews but maybe I've missed those that you know I'm intrigued by at that moment I don't have any answers about it and and you know we've got a huge amount of data from everybody here and I gears around it but I still don't have any answers about more on earth is happening at that at that moment I think it's just quite extreme one of the things that we've danced around is she if you see her in a normal conversation her hands are going she's talking she's illustrating not much in most of these conversations when she's being asked very pointed questions I don't see as much illustrating with her hands she's still using the eye thing that she does so well but not as much hand movement but watch video of her walking with those people she's touching them using regulators she's controlling conversation she's illustrating when you watch the cracked thing where she's talking about building cages and moving her hands I don't see much of that when you're asked these pointed questions it's just that for me as a red flag I would want to dig in on why she isn't illustrating when I'm asking questions and why should we be emphatic at other times with illustrators the other way another red flag to think about is when you when you have a dog or when you have a pet fish you do something to say when that thing dies and your pet fish dies before you flush it you go hey man you know captain Nautilus you were an awesome goldfish or you know pepper or fluffy or you know patches you were a great dog org okay and you have that you have that little you have a little something for him in this case she has nothing for a guy she was married to and supposed to have loved and been in love with and she doesn't do anything last and on to hope and that's that's the reason because he's still missing or you know but I definitely think that there should have been something even I go and light a candle every once in a while or I keep a place set at the table or I keep the porch light on something that she adopted a new ritual or a new way of doing things because of the absence of a person in her life which goes back to the whole question about the she does cover that in her when she goes back and says here's my retort to this she says because he was in Costa Rica and there were lots of drug guys and that kind of thing there's a potential that you could disappear that rationale I would say if you're going into northern Mexico right now you might actually put that in but is it normal probably not and probably most people would say my death and then you go through a process to declare you legally dead it still goes all the way back to why did you call missing persons to Costa Rica in your mind yeah that's where it starts to get weird for me and then it I mean then we get to the point of asking the asking whether or not the behavior of a tiger person is normal to begin with that's true that's true there's things that we have not seen to your point earlier I think chase about that gap in time God knows what she did when that came in she may have had a party she may be that guy who knows and she could be hiding all kinds of things with that simple verbal words of and Ben right she's diving time so what was normal for her maybe she did agree maybe she covered that up we don't know any of that we only know what we can see anybody got anything else we should cover to talk about I saw a Aquila keel anguish guy and I wanted to get everybody's opinion on this this is a he was a British body language expert I forgot his name and he is saying the tight lips when she says I never threatened him and then squeezes her lips together he said that's a hundred percent deception I'm gonna need to I'm gonna need to know more about this and I'm watching I'm just kind of like going oh man and then she's saying she's talking about her dead husband she's not showing any emotion and I'm saying 20 years right 20 years my grandmother died three years ago yeah and I can talk about it right now I haven't shown any any kind of emotional response to except I've grieved I've gone through it I've talked about it and she's done it a thousand times more in interviews on camera to all kinds of different people so I would say to discount that fact is silly but that would be my opinion you know I want to get up I've been through much more loss than that and it's only been five years and I can talk about it now without showing emotion but it's not because I don't truly miss the person it's because I've adapted and I have the ability to talk about it well to that to that point I've trained a number of people to deliver the eulogy at their you know closest relatives and and part of it is you know they want to be able to get through it and they don't want to break it down and so what we do is to go through it and through it and through it and and in front of me they deliver the emotions to me so I witness those emotions and we do it many many times until they've exercised those and and when they now go into that those that speech of pattern which is a you know sassette speech they now don't need to deliver that emotion so so yeah you can you can cause yourself even very close to the death to not you know admit the emotions in a certain situation now does that mean they don't feel anymore they feel it but they don't need to exercise it in that particular way at that particular moment with that case so if we were to go back chase and as you know how this is done we will talk about so everybody doesn't get an idea how it's done we could talk about your grandmother when you're little and all the things she did with you and all the fun you had with her when we go back and relive some of those things and situations around that and that would be able to dredge up those emotions and have them come back up and see her they were coming up just you saying that right now yeah that does work gripper slips or whatever whatever you want to call it you know where they did up for to say that you're being deceptive every one of the guys who gets busted for an affair I mean there's a famous meme going around there's a dog doing that it says I think my dog was come it has been a sex scandal everyone these guys seems bust in the sex scandal does that after the fact they're all going and it's not your hike oh yeah auntie Weiner rush limbaugh you name it the whole list if I have the meme somewhere Scott you probably haven't been pop it up because I was using my presentation there's a doll doing the same thing it's came from but I use in my presentations now just to say you know patrolling emotion I've done that when I know I'm not lying because my brain goes we know what you're telling the truth you better not do that afterwards doing it because I know I shouldn't we have the worst of it because all of us know and we're all going damn it and we're assuming everybody can see what we see that's right oh [ __ ] I just touched my face on the zoom call right yes I just give up I'm just gonna do whatever I'm gonna do I'm just saying hey if you see something that somebody says can you turn it off when you go to you know when they're talking to you so in every state course do you know what you say they're going oh my god I totally have the ability to switch off my unconscious mind yeah yeah and they say what can you tell us an ad doesn't work that way you know we're just talking it's okay you gotta be kidding me you know what I teach body language and as everybody here does and I'll teach simple thing about blink rate going up or lip compression or facial touching and then during a breaks somebody will come up and inevitably somebody will come up to me like hey I noticed your blink rate actually went up when you were talking like they like they got me there's something a human could do and you always say I feel like I'm Jane Goodall among the chimps except for I'm also a chimp that's the problem the things you do you remember when you first get everybody will experience this when you first got into this how that's all you did when you realize when you heard one thing this means this and you bet absolute Sabean if this happens it means their life if this happens to me so tell the truth yeah yeah you used to collect those that's all you look for for that like when you first get into psychopathy you know and everybody you meet a man to God the time I was 23 to about 26 everybody I met was the sight it was a psychopath I remember thinking about people kid thinking that cat must have been a psychopath that guy was a psychopath man he must admit because the way he was it cuz like no but but when you when you start getting used to seeing stuff in body language and you're not calling your you know like you're saying chase people will think you're they don't know what you're doing to see your eyebrow and your eye rate blink rate go way up you're like yeah I don't know what to tell you about it you'll see though your arms go up and down and all that there's a there's a video in that course Greg and I did and as we're talking I can't these glasses I have to be able to see clearly you have to do like this and so as I'm like talking to the council's be talking to my hands back like this as I'm giving some big punch information when I see me I think and I look just like I'm yeah I look just like I'm you know lying my hand off they are not being honest for me because I'm doing this number because yeah to do this to be able to see everything clearly because my nose is the way I learned this is not true a book or that I finally had to get books to try to figure it out but she would appreciate that was a seer guy for four years and we wrote the story these guys were supposed to hide and they're trying to tell us lies all the time and if you can't pick up body language from Americans trying to lie to you eight hours a day four days a week you're pretty slow so I started saying what does this mean and what does that mean to start digging for it and you would see you know you automatically want to think people who touch your nose are lying and all that and then you no it's not that it's something else is there different yeah yeah and it's sad thing doesn't exist in the military no it doesn't i became a reserved full-time trainer in my last seven years of the army I was a AGR guy up in Fort Dix and I did it for the army there I taught behavior and body language stuff just from digging and learning and I was the only guy doing it right talking to military guys and I'm a little seasick at Gough we've talked about who it is I wasn't worried for the last time those cats didn't have any earthly idea now body language wise what to look for it they thought the same things you know people on the street think yeah it's when I see that I'm like good lord man these guys of everyone should be able to say here's what I'm seeing you know yeah they're interested in very specific things are interested in muscle twitch and preparatory moves and all that kind of thing that guys you're talking yeah what happens is these absolutes that you get in you know some books and certainly on the internet for sure just give people a lot of comfort and so you know when you're talking about the military guys you know that they want some absolutes that are maybe easy for them to detect they're in the right kind of radar range for them to go how I saw that and this means this so now I can be comfortable that you know X is happening and of course we know that it it's it's that or something else and and you know really our world is one of critical thinking of thinking just that little bit further and constantly going what else or or what if that's not true or what if you know what if the idea is in my head but not in their head you know how much of how much I how much of my part of this behavior that's going on right right now how am I responsible for it so that bigger critical thinking piece which of course takes a lot of work it takes a lot of work to do critical thinking and most people just one an answer yeah an answer today now is relevation know in the military room average people are packaged information and handed that information until you get to certain skill levels that's what everybody wants what does this mean what does that mean what does its makes it easier for people as well yeah and it's the same time I think it makes it in some cases dangerous because when you talk to someone about let's say if you deal with guys in the military and they're at an outpost and someone's walking up to them if you're in Afghanistan let's say or somewhere and they're walking up to you and they look they look nervous what kind of nervousness are you seeing what tells you are you seeing nervousness because that person that person is nervous because they're long enough to touch you and run off you know like a little game they play or they walking up to you to actually talk to you and they want to touch and be part of it because you're in America and they like Americans or they you see in that data add nervousness where they've got you know two pounds of c-4 strapped to their stomach and they gonna take in as many people as they can where they get close so my other sorry when people say right right that's what I'm saying saying to people is look if you've you know if you're in an interrogation situation there's summing up like there's something wrong from moment one that you ended up there in the first place like you know in certain situations so so you are obviously a person of interest well that's enough that's enough that you're a person of interest you've clearly you've hung around with the wrong people or you were there at the wrong time and and so and so yeah I'd be stressed because I've spent most of my life trying to not be in that situation so if I end up there I'm like what the hell happened here something is up this is wrong I've spent my whole life trying not to be seen here being interrogated what thing is you using at an interrogation to your advantage because you know when you ask people they're certain and the things you go through a little pattern of things you go through asking questions you want to see that at certain times and when they've forgotten they felt like that you've gotten so relaxed you're talkative and all sudden you say you ask them a question something and they get right back to that and they keep really quickly that tells you a lot you know we all throw the details every but that's what that's actually good that you did that you feel that way I was teaching a human resources who's a professional interviewer for a fortune 500 company and he said I need to I need to be able to tell when to spawn stressful behaviour and I was like bro you do job interviews for a living I need to teach you how to spot comfort you how to spot when somebody's comfortable that's gonna be the outlier yes and I've worked in corporate America where people are trying to get through that hurdle all the time to get to a position and the higher up you go the more stress they are because the harder it is to find positions yeah and you know if you're if you're a clerk working in a big corporation that's easy to find a job but when you get to be the CFO it's a different story and they have a lot at stake and those kinds of things in and then and then you think about being the interviewer where you've got the whole of the board going where you go and get us somebody to do this job come on do your job find somebody to get this job you've got an interview an interviewer under stress who has then got an interviewee under stress the whole thing is is now framed with with stress and I often say what we do as interrogators is give permission to people to do something really stupid and that's tell us the truth right and that's what we all have in common we give people permission where their solicitation or interrogation or whatever we're doing we're saying hey it's okay you can be an idiot just tell me this and for some reason they feel like it's okay to tell us that means we're doing our job correctly it's the key theme of my entire interrogation course is that you're in the business of permission yeah persuasion permission yeah I always stood it you still treason when you do what I did quit you know you're telling the guy oh no matter what they told you that it's okay they're not here selling trees okay yeah sure seriously we should we should do this you find something else to talk about do it again it's like we're doing this once an hour-and-a-half we've been doing it so but if everybody would please go ahead and delete that video I sent just in case that was the biggest amount of work you did for the whole videos yeah yeah I actually did that four times because I kept laughing that was bad cuz I had another was just you know it was bad it was bad so let's let's wait go take a look at you'll see I did a lot of good ear work on that all right well let's get out thank you

Channel: The Behavior Panel

Views: 286,964

Rating: 4.8987999 out of 5

Keywords: body language, tiger king, carole baskin, how to read body language, logan portenier, body language analysis, observe, sherlock holmes, nonverbal, deception, the tiger king, the tiger king carole baskin, lying, analysis, joe exotic, tigers, netflix, don lewis, tampa, big cat, lier, carole tiger king, tiger king carole baskin, jeff tiger king, carol tiger king, doc antle, travis maldonado, tiger king documentary, john finlay, carol baskin, big cat rescue carole, tiger king netflix

Id: QKpjC8rwZW0

Length: 72min 1sec (4321 seconds)

Published: Sun May 03 2020