Michael Franzese on 'The Irishman', Chin Gigante, Sammy the Bull, Rudy Giuliani (Full Interview)

all right here we go Michael Franzese welcome back good to be back we kicked up a lot of dirt last time we sure did got a lot of got a little responses from it most of them quite good actually yeah I mean I counted it up it's like 11 million views combined that's a lot of views how was the reaction from your end because the Vlad TV audience I think is different than a lot of the other interviews that you did reaction was really good very strong you know I actually got reactions from all over the world so I don't know how why do you know your audiences but I certainly found out it's pretty wide but it was good stuff you know I was very pleased with the way people responded questions were good after that and you know so it worked out well for me very cool well glad you came back yes well we've covered a lot of the story last time but but there are some things that we didn't cover that that I want to discuss with you your father of course is Sonny Franzese who was a very high ranking member in the Colombo crime family but what I didn't realize was that he's not your biological father well you know there's been some controversy on that it's crazy Vlad because for me at this point in time at this age to be still wondering you know what's up it's kind of crazy but according to him he is my biological father according to others he's not you know I don't know if you know how this kind of came out but my mom was 16 years old when I was born allegedly my dad had an affair with her around that time and he was married at the time and my grandparents on my mother's side were pretty upset with what happened and according to my mother they forced her to marry someone else so that when she gave birth she'd be married when my father divorced his wife at that time my mom divorced her husband and then the two of them got married so my mother revealed this actually in a book that that was written quit not quitting the mob she revealed it to my co-author I didn't even know this but you know the only I can say this any time it ever came up that I was a stepson my father was very upset about it never wanted to hear that he legally actually adopted me at an early age and as far as he's concerned I'm his biological son I really don't know I never did a DNA test didn't matter to me I never really met my the other person that was supposed to be my father so I can honestly sit here and tell you right now I really don't know and honestly he's the only father I know so that's how I deal with it so you never actually met your mother's first husband no I did not okay was he related in the mob at all or no no he wasn't he was from what I know he was in the military I heard later on from other people who's very well liked guy in Brooklyn but you know then I also heard that my father Sonny kind of chased him away so I never seen him ever heard of him I don't know you know it's it's crazy to say it at this point in time but I really don't know the real story okay I mean because with the DNA testing these days it's actually pretty easy I got to do is get your dad to swab and then you take a swab and then but I guess you don't care at this point you know I look I'm 68 years old he's the only father that I know you know he's been great to me in that regard many ways I know we've had our controversy you know after we got into the life and I walked away but you know what's it going to prove at this point in time you know the other person I know he's dead he's not around anymore so what's it what does it matter you know it really doesn't matter at this point now you said in an interview that there's no such thing as a mafia in America only in Italy can you slang that a little bit well the Mafia in Italy is the mafia and here it's called La Cosa Nostra and there's similar organizations obviously but they're different in many ways also and if you take an oath to be a member of the Mafia in Italy you're not automatically a member of La Cosa Nostra here and vice-versa the way I understand now I never tested that I've never been to Italy and met with anybody over there but I've certainly met with people from the Mafia that came here and we were courteous to them respectful we didn't share our secrets with them we were told not to at least I was so they're two distinct organizations you don't you know become a member of one and are a member of both and you know by virtue of the fact that there's secret organizations I understand that and since Trust is a big part of it you know if you don't really know the people in the Mafia in Italy you're not going to trust them like you know your own here so I just always viewed it as two separate and distinct organizations you know they do things kind of differently there too you know the way I understand it in the way I've seen it you know in the Mafia in Italy you know they want to have the law enforcement there was times when you know in retaliation for certain things family members were killed we didn't do that here we didn't retaliate with law enforcement that was hands off we certainly didn't go after family members that was a strict code it's one of the reasons why I never worried about my own family when I walked away from that life so you know we have different policies and different codes there so I view that as a very separate distinction between the Mafia and La Cosa Nostra now I've heard different stories about how the word mafia came around do you know the the origin of that word you know I don't go into the history of the Mafia back in Italy but I understand it was you know it's more of a protective term against government and against invading people in Italy at that point in time how a group of people originally band together to protect themselves against you know maybe obtrusive government or Marauders that were coming into Italy to try to you know invade and overtake them I'm really not a historian when it comes to the Mafia I've heard some story about in some town in Italy like a woman's daughter was raped and she was crying out like my feet my feet or my daughter and a group of men got together to basically kill the guy that that raped her and that's kind of how the organization started up I don't know what there's a real story in that never really heard that so I can't comment on it you have you have the Mafia in Italy and then you have the Cosa Nostra in America now when you watch certain movies like Goodfellas and so forth they talk about how you have to be pure Italian to get into the you know the American Mafia that if you're if you're mixed if you're you know half Puerto Rican half white half whatever they have to be able to be able to trace your roots back to Italy or Sicily in order to actually accept you was that actually true during your time yeah your your father has to be Italian your mom can be of another descent although it's preferred that both parents are Italian but the the qualification is that your father is of Italian origin and that can be traced back to Italy and I know when I was you know I don't know if you know the process but when you're when you're a recruit and your name is submitted to be made at some point there's actually an investigation that's on your name is passed around at least in New York to all five families to see if there's any objection for any reason why you shouldn't be become a made member so part of that investigation is really to to see your roots in my case it was pretty easy because of my dad and that's another reason why I have to believe that he was my father because that investigation was done on me and I was traced back to being my father's son and of course my father you know his origin is in Naples Italy okay he's your mother telling my mother is Italian also yes okay but in the Mafia your father has to be Italian well that's my mother and like Porto Rican father that's correct your father must be Italian okay and then with the five families was it called the commission the the group when the group got together all the bosses got together well you know the five families are in New York there are other families throughout the country and the way I was always told even though I never experienced this myself because during my time after Appalachia as you know as you probably know all of the commission members didn't meet you know together because of that Appalachian deal but there were actually nine families throughout the country and the way you qualified to be a family is that you had to have a boss has become a member of the Commission then you are recognized as a real family so and five of those families were in New York and New York was really always this stronghold you know for the mob here in America right I'm actually looking at up the Appalachian meeting so it was a historic meeting a historic summit of the American Mafia held at the home of mobster Joe the barber in Appalachian New York the meeting was held to discuss various topics and loan sharking loan sharking narcotics trafficking gambling a lot local uh local and state law enforcement became suspicious of the meeting I guess what the meeting was somehow surveilled or something like that yeah I think it was accidentally surveilled by two state troopers at the time that happened to catch a license plate of somebody and it led them to this meeting in Appalachia and after that happened and it was exposed you know there were a lot of bosses there are a lot of prominent people here from around the country they decided at that point that would never happen again they would never have a meeting like that again and to my knowledge I don't think there has been now there's been meetings obviously between family members from across the country but never a big comedian committee meeting like that ever again well yeah I'm looking it up more than 60 underworld bosses were detained to arrest 60 bosses were what not necessarily arrested but detained all in one place that's correct so what someone basically just hit the jackpot on that and it was accident it was an accident that they hit the jackpot but they did and like I said as a result they would never have a meeting like that again okay now your father was known as being one of the enforcers or the main enforcer for the Colombo family well that's what the you know the media and law enforcement dubbed him as back in the the 50s and 60s you know I gotta tell you about you know that was obviously I was around during the 50s and 60s and I always wondered you know my father was a prominent guy in that life there was no doubt about it but he got so much media attention you know he wasn't the only guy around I mean that was when Carlo Gambino was around and Anastasia was around and Colombo was around and so many guys were around at that time and I always wondered why it was him that they really selected to go after in such a hostile way I mean you know my dad was the John Gotti of his day as a matter fact I believe he got more attention at his time then god he did and we didn't have social media obviously back then but the media coverage he got was just it was unheard up to that point I mean nobody had gotten that and I always wondered why and I always set them dead you know why you and you know he gave me some different answers for it so I mean I think law enforcement believed that look law enforcement said he was responsible for 30 or 40 or 50 murders now they never proved that we've never seen any evidence of that nobody's ever come out and said well Sonny Franzese killed all of these people it was just their theory at the time but theory almost became fact but we have no evidence to prove that but somehow they believed it like how many people was your dad accused of killing formerly one yeah only one he went to trial for the alleged he ordered the murder of a guy by name Ernie to hawk rapollo who a associate you know of the family and he went to trial and he was acquitted it was found not guilty that was the only murder that my dad was ever formally accused of committing or ordering even not even that he personally committed it how many people was he rumored to have killed I've read 30 40 50 you know I mean all these crazy numbers but they never give names of any of them they just said that he was rumored to kill or supposedly killed all these people there's no evidence and nobody's ever said anything right well and at one point your dad actually okay to hit on you we talked about this last time well look that's what the FBI told me you know they they came in and said your father went along with the murder not that he ordered it Persico ordered it and he went along with it my father denies that to me obviously you know I've confronted him on it he denied it he said it wasn't true but the FBI said they had word from their informants so you know who knows to me you know there could be some truth to it because I know my dad and I know that he is a you know true soldier of this life or at least he was and you know allegedly I did the wrong thing at that point in time so you know I I'm sure look I'll be honest with ya I don't know that my dad would have ever pulled the trigger on me I'm not saying that but did he say well look at my son did the wrong thing then I have to go along with it very possible what would you have done in a situation like that when let's just say when you were really active and your child was about to testify against you and give you and everyone around you life in prison what would you have done to your child I would have never ever pulled the trigger on my own son I have two boys she could have never done that in a million years I would have said you know what this is just this is I'm a product of this life and if this way it's got to go and this is the way it's going to happen it's going to happen I could have never done that I would have never turned against my my children in that way just couldn't do it you know it's not in me to do it you know Vlad I'll say this look they were guys in life that I don't wanna I can't get inside their head and I can't said that they enjoyed violent acts so they enjoyed committing murders but they seemed a little bit more into it let's put it that way you know me when I had to do certain things I wasn't comfortable with it it was just who I was inside I wasn't comfortable I can't say I enjoyed it I did it anyway because I followed orders and I did what I had to do but it wasn't something that that I was really cut out for it wasn't what I wanted to do so again I'm not getting an image inside anybody said I'm not getting into my father's head but I could have never done that to any either one of my children well you never had a a child try to testify against you but we talked about this last time your brother actually testified against your father and ended up getting him how many years you got an eight-year sentence on that well actually that's actually had some years old he was 95 and 96 at the time actually you know the word is out that my my dad actually gave information against my father twice that he got him violated on his parole at one time we didn't know that you know so it went way back and went even before he testified against them at trial so I don't know how long my brother was providing information but it seemed to be beyond even the time that he testified against him so what happened twice right your brother was a drug addict he had a severe drug problem for most of his life yes was he hooked on you know I think Weesa cocaine really mostly coke okay and now your brother's actually in witness protection he he's been in witness protection I think he came out of witness protection earlier this year you know he actually did an article or he did an interview rather for a major publication in Indianapolis you can look that up he's also was interviewed by people at Newsday you know in New York and he gave an interview so he's come out of it I think he's living outside of the program I don't know exactly where he is right now I don't really want to know but that's the latest have you had a conversation with your father about how he feels about your brother I have yeah well obviously he was stunned by it it was very upset by what happened with my brother he never said to me that you know we got to go after your brother or I ordered your brother's killing or I went along with it he never said that I heard he said that to others and obviously that's been in the newspaper and that's what the FBI allege he never said that to me personally but I know he was very upset about it obviously also the FBI was saying that your dad potentially ordered a hit on his other son that's correct we're over testifying against that that's what I read and that's what was reported yes if your brother walks in the room right now sits down next to you what would happen you know I mean I would embrace him I told him look I've had conversation my brother and I told him straight out I don't agree with what you did I think it was horrible I even believe that you lied on the witness stand because for me Vlad I've never seen an informant of any kind get on a witness stand put their left hand on a Bible right hands swear to tell the truth the whole truth and then lie through their teeth and I was in the courtroom when my brother testified and he wasn't truthful about everything he said and I've told him that you know but I mean I wouldn't kill him I certainly wouldn't he's still my brother I love him I just don't agree with what he did and it's hard to trust him you know but look I've had recent conversations with him and I think my brother has turned kind of a corner in his life I think he regrets somewhat what he did and I think he's trying to do the right thing right now but you know who knows well you talked about how the most violent acts that you did was over your brother and your sister you know rest in peace doing drugs and you I guess trying to get involved in between those situations you talk about that well look you know more so my sister than my brother she was my baby sister my younger sister and you know it's very difficult when I saw her in places where you know guys were taking an advantage of her you know feeding her drugs and taking advantage of her and you know I acted out at that point and you know really what my sister not not my brother as much but do I regret it look I was angry at the time you know I I think anybody that's you know putting drugs in your sister's arm and and abusing her I think that would be cause anybody to lash out and you know me I have a temper and you know I was a product of that life and as a result I acted in that way and obviously I'm not going to get into detail about it but you know when I look back I did some tough things as a result of that yes so I mean the way he described she was on heroin you know I don't know what they were shooting in her arm but it looked like heroin to me and you know she was certainly on coke I know that and you know she really struggled with that for quite some time you know one of the reasons I'm against marijuana you know and I'm not going to get into the medicinal value of it and so on and so forth because I believe that both my brother and sister started you know by smoking pot and my brother might deny it I don't know but my sister you know confided in to me that she did she was smoking pot in the early age and then she advanced to other drugs now I know it doesn't have to be a gateway drug I know other people can smoke it I know people that smoke it now and they've never gone on to other drugs but it certainly can be and as a result of that I've always been against it so but yeah I mean I did some rough things as a result of seeing my sister in that situation who I love dearly and as a result you know she died him and overdose so that's very hard to accept how old was she when she died 27 oh wow yeah and she had just you know she came out to California and she kind of straightened her life out she was living with me and my wife was was really a great influence on her so kids and she was doing well for several months and then all of a sudden she left and went back east and I don't know what happened I don't know how it happened I know she died in a hotel room in Florida you know because of my situation at the time I couldn't even go to the funeral it was terrible at that point but you know a very sad situation but you know blood I'll tell you this you know my family was destroyed as a result of my dad's involvement in that life and you know my sister dies of an overdose of drugs my brother a drug addict most of his life turns into an informant my mother 33 years without a husband when she passed on you know in 2012 her relationship with my dad was terrible because she blamed him for everything that went wrong in our lives my younger sister died of you know of cancer at a young age was 42 years old I mean all of this stuff is just a product of what I believe you know my dad's involvement in that life caused and I don't know any family of any member of that life that in some way hasn't been devastated so as a result you know I said this is a bad lifestyle it's not conducive to good family lights it breaks up families I tell these gangbangers the same thing you know you're gonna put the oldest on your family because of your involvement in the street life so you know one of the reasons I walked away was to preserve my family from going through exactly that and fortunately up to this point I have been able to do that so it was just there was a tough upbringing it really was did you personally know already spayed up I did know over yes didn't like him okay there was an interview I I saw recently on the gangster Chronicles and he knew your father I guess very well that's good when I said at one point your father actually put a hit out on do you know about this put a hit out on Horry ya know I don't know that to be a fact but or he's a bad guy I mean order use my father's name use my name threaten people as a result of that he was doing some illicit things with my brother I think it was feeding my brother drugs I think when my brother finally straightened out a little bit when he was living with me out here you know in the early 2000s already put him back on drugs I don't like gory speedo and he won't come near me regardless of what he might have said in that empty I don't I I don't I'm not aware of the interview so I don't know if he said anything about anything but he's a liar I wouldn't believe anything that he says you know I I know I believed he was going to be one of the witnesses against my dad I think he turned informant that's what I heard I don't know that for a fact but he never did come in to testify so I don't know yeah I'll send Julian to the interview you know after after we're done but he claims that your dad put a hit out on him over some situation but later on the two of them worked it out he claims that him and your dad still talk like once a week or once every couple weeks and they're friends no I don't know if that's true or not but well you know what he said I would hope not but my dad has a tendency I don't know you know something look my dad's 102 years old he may not even know who he's talking to at the other end of the phone but I don't think or he goes in to visit him you know you know III don't know about that to me or iorry is not truthful at all I don't believe anything he says so I would take that with a grain of salt I mean in that type of life because there is so much violence and there is so much lying and trickery and prison and murderer and this and that do people kind of get in the mindset of forgiveness because otherwise they would just kind of hate everyone around them you know you you forgave your father for allegedly allowing a hit on you do you see that type of thing in general in that life well you know when you're in that life it's depending upon what you might hear from somebody you know forgiveness could be dangerous you know you have to act to protect yourself in that life if you think something or somebody is trying to undermine you or go against you so forgiveness in that life depending upon the situation could be dangerous to you you know even if you want to forgive somebody you may not be able to forgive somebody because you don't know what their their ultimate motive or intention is you don't know if they're you know collaborating with somebody else against you I mean you know you got to walk aligned in that life all the time you got to be you know constantly aware of your surroundings the people that you're talking to who they might be talking to so you might forgive somebody inwardly but you might not be able to act on that forgiveness openly now you would mentioned that at one point if you dealt drugs and you were in the Mafia you would get killed was that you know just for a certain amount of time because the Mafia definitely was involved in drugs at various various different times you know the night that I was straightened out Halloween night 1975 I was told straight out if we dealt with drugs we die and throughout my tenure in that life that's what I was told we were never allowed to get involved with drugs and I remember one time somebody approached me with they had three truckloads of pot marijuana and they they asked me to move it for them they said look I'll give it you at a discount price bring it forward I wasn't interested but since somebody came to me I wanted to make sure that I wasn't being trapped so I went and I put it on record with my boss at the time and I said look I'm not interested in this but somebody brought it to me and before anybody hears anything differently I'm bringing it to you I'm not interested I'm not going to do anything with it but I'm just letting you know it's available and I was told at that point in time straight out we're not getting involved in it just chased the guy away don't get involved so and that was that was in the early 80s so you know up to my time that I left that life there was no involvement with drugs at least with our family now I knew that other guys were doing it but I knew they were doing it on the cupboard they weren't doing it out in the open and if you asked them about it they denied it so right but in the earlier times during like the the you know the Gigante era and so forth they were dealing a lot of drugs right during like the the sixties and seventies you know I'm watching I just watched the series that Godfather or Harlem and I'm seeing right look ninety percent of that would which in is not true I mean all the stories that they're making up and now I'm not now it was a good series was well acted and so on and so forth it was good but it was not truthful at all not at all and I I don't believe the chin was involved to that extent that they're showing in that series and I certainly know that Joe Bonanno was involved to that extent I mean it was it was you know shortly after that that he was you know dispelled out to Arizona so there was a lot that's made up there and it's gonna lead people to believe that we were major drug traffickers at the time I don't believe a lot of that was true as a matter of fact I know for a fact a lot of it wasn't true so you know I I know where that's gonna lead in people's minds okay when you actually knew chin Gigante I did okay so what kind of person was he well you know chin was a guy that he didn't care who you were you know what position you had in that life if he didn't want to meet up with you he wouldn't he happened to like my father I heard and I was very close with a guy by the name of Freddie fritzy Giovanelli who was under chin and he said chin wanted to meet me and I went to see chained one day I've met him on a couple of occasions we walked down Houston Street and he was in his bathrobe and unshaven and so on and so forth but we had good conversation and what the conversation was for me at that time he had heard that you know that I was getting some trouble because of my involvement in the gas business and you know people were looking at me in different ways thought I might have had a problem with Persico my boss at the time and he said to me straight out he didn't like jr. and he said to me straight out if you ever want to come and be with me you can be with me I'll work it out I'll move you to my family he said that's an open offer to you and I said chin thank you very much and I appreciate it you know and if I ever need that assistance I'll come back to you but it wasn't something that I was going to do with me he was good he was very lucid you know he wasn't crazy in any which way you know so I had a good relationship with him does that ever happen that one a person goes from one crime family to another officially it's very rare but it does happen yes it can't happen huh what's use of the situation around that well you know maybe there's a problem in one family and you know you go to the other guy for help and then he officially moved you over they work it out you know in Chin's case chin was the most powerful guy in New York City at that point so if he wanted something most of the time he was going to get it so I think he would have moved me over from Persico if I wanted to go and it's happened in the past I mean I one or two occasions that I've heard so yeah it's not unheard of okay and in the show Godfather a Harlem which which by the way is a great show that like I said you sort of see the whole crazy you know the you know like the in the shower with the umbrella and he talks about how he's acting crazy because he'd rather go to an asylum than to prison and the feds were already on him so you're talking about when you met up with him he was acting he had the crazy act right along with you in the middle house history that's correct you know look people have asked me all the time do you think it was crazy and I said look he wasn't crazy but to act crazy and get away with it for that many years you got to have a little something inside of you to do it but you know look chin protected himself I mean it wasn't till very late in the game that chin went off to jail when you know the racketeering laws and everything just caught up with him but chin didn't go to prison because he was very protective of who he met it wasn't so much the crazy act to me it was more the way he conducted himself like I said he didn't care who you are who you were if he didn't want to meet with you he wouldn't and he was very guarded as to who he would meet who he would talk to he never really got caught on wiretaps or you with informants around and what bugging devices so he was very careful the way he needed to be about how he acted you know the crazy thing in the end it didn't work so you know he might have acted that way for a long time but I think it was more the way he positioned himself in that life that kept him out of trouble for so long right I'm actually looking at his Wikipedia page now and when you look at his nicknames you know of course he had the chin but then you have the odd father right the the enigma in the bathrobe and the robe so I guess the bathrobe was a real big recurring kind of theme with this guy yeah well he used to walk house in street in his bathrobe on shaving with his hair all messed up I mean that's how I walked with him you know it was funny to me it was you know it was it was unique the let's put it that way I never saw anybody pull that off before but in my conversations with him and we had you know a few meetings like that and my conversations with him he was very bright very lucid and a smart guy respected him a lot I really did and for people that haven't been to New York Houston Street is like a major commercial street yeah major the major streets and in Manhattan this is not like a little side street in Little Italy somewhere where you could walk down a bathro but it's not a big deal you're there with a bunch of major stores and traffic going back and forth so you're attracting a lot of attention if you're on Houston Street in the bathroom that's correct and I'm sure he did that purposely so that whatever photographs were being taken to him at the time that's how they saw him in The Godfather a Harlem the the five families were dealing with the black gangs in Harlem which at the time was was bumpy Johnson later on it became Frank Lucas right and then after Frank Lucas who are the other guys who's the guy in the and the fur who ended up telling on everybody well Frank Lucas did become an informant I think you know that yeah oh yeah he actually I think he originally drew a 70 year prison sentence and he got it reduced to five years after he agreed to in so I don't know of anybody after him that was the informant but Frank without a doubt I mean that's that's a matter of record he was informant were you guys dealing with that I am the black criminal figures in New York during that time or not so much well not as much no you know I certainly was and we look we we had black associates at friends you know I always got along very well with with all the black guys even in prison for some reason you know but you know I can't say that we were specifically in doing business with them at least I don't know of any anyone at that time that we were specifically doing business with trying to think you know legitimately like in the record business I was dealing without Sharpton quite a bit you know I dealt with with another fella now I can't think of his name then introduced me to two people that that eventually became the I eventually found out they were undercover cops and FBI agents but you know we dealt with with blacks quite a bit you know we had everybody in the music business through Nobby Walters you know I knew Marvin Gaye back then and Dionne Warwick and all those people so we had relationships and they were always good always good Nicky bars was in a mobster oh yeah Nicky Barnes okay yeah okay I did not know certainly heard of him quite a bit during that time but never dealt with him yeah he ended up uh testifying against everybody ever that's correct so as both him and Frank Luke Lucas that that became a performance and Frank Lucas we interviewed him you know he had a relationship with bumpy Johnson he was I guess his driver at one point and I guess he end up testifying against a bunch of dirty cops as well I don't know if he testified against other people as well but is that considered a no-no testifying as cops testifying against anybody he's considered a no no I mean we're not supposed to do that you know at least in our life you know we're not supposed to give information or testify at any point in time against anybody that's what we're told obviously it wouldn't be looked at poorly as if you testified against one of your own but we're not supposed to do that gotcha now before you were actually made a made man you had a situation with a Paul Castellano yes am i pronouncing it correctly that's correct yes okay and Paul Castellano well he was known as the Howard Hughes had the Howard Hughes of the mob why was he given that name because of his business acumen he was a very wealthy guy and he was you know allegedly more legitimate than he was you know a street guy more of a legitimate guy in a businessman and you know so they viewed him in that way and not necessarily favorably I I didn't hear a lot of good things about Paul Castellano during my time before he got murdered and you know my one encounter with him that was you know a problem you know I didn't care for him too much either but I was my opinion right and he was the head of the Gambino crime family and I guess at the time that was the most powerful family yeah Gambino Genovese you know they were the biggest family so people looked at them as being the most powerful families but you know that's that's subjective you know if you ask Purse ago we were the most powerful but you know the Gambino and the Genovese by the numbers were bigger than us and therefore they might have had more power than us okay and you had a situation over some chicken with Paul that's correct can you describe that yeah I had a market out in Long Island and you know it was one of those markets that had a butcher shop and a seafood and grew fruits and vegetables and we were told that we had to buy our chicken Paulie was in the chicken business I think Frank Frank Perdue was his partner so we had to buy our chicken and our poultry from Paul so I had a big order it was a Memorial Day weekend we bought a big order from him and somebody came in and we sold him a big order for the Memorial weekend well the day after on a Tuesday they came back and said they couldn't use any of the chickens because they had maggots in them they were bad so I called up Paul's guy at that time who I didn't know was a made guy and I said we're we're returning the chickens and I'm not paying you for him and he started cussing me out on the phone he said no you're paying for him I said no or not I said you know where you had him in the freezer refrigerator one day they couldn't have gone bad I'm not paying you so he started cursing me out I started cursing him out back you know we went this big fight on the phone you know and I said I'm not paying you come and pick him up or I'll throw him in the garbage and you know the next morning I get a call from my captain at the time and said get into Brooklyn right away so I go into Brooklyn and he tells me what was this conversation you had with Pauly's guy on the phone he said he was a made guy you cursed him out I said well he cursed me out I know who he was so he saw pull he's very upset and you're gonna have to buy back the chickens I said why would I buy him I said they were bad chickens you know this was there was over chickens right so we actually had to sit down with Paul I mean he was really upset about this and his guy and I was told in with my boss was there so because Paulie was a boss I had to have a boss at the time Tom but Tom DiBella and Andrew Russa they were my two guys so I mean he was really upset with me you cursed my guy out as well I didn't know who he was you know I'm sorry I didn't know that he was your only a recruit who you to talk like that to a made guy is appalling I'm telling you I didn't know he was a made guy I know he is he was on the other end of the phone back and forth back and forth and the way the decision came down afterwards is I didn't have to pay for the chickens but I had to continue using Paulie as my supplier so that's how it worked out but uh he was very very upset with me you know it called me all sorts of names and so on and so forth and you know afterwards all over when we drove away my boss and a my captain they started laughing about it they said this is the biggest deal we ever had over chickens in our life and you know it turned out to be a joke with us but it was serious at the moment let me tell you because he was upset so for a guy to get that upset over a couple hundred bucks because that's really all it was you can tell that money was very important to him well why would a boss meet with a recruit of another family wouldn't that be handled on a more higher level well yeah but my boss was there too I mean this became a major sit down basically because number one I refused to pay and number two I was disrespectful to another mob guy a made guy I should say who was related to Paulie at the time was his nephew or his cuz I know who he was but so I was disrespectful to a made guy plus I refused to pay so those were two major things at that point in time why Paulie had to come and get involved in this again you're right I agree with you instead of just saying it's a couple hundred dollars handle it or whatever this went up to that level where my boss and the boss of the Gambino family had to get involved in a major sit down over a couple hundred dollars worth of chickens and my being disrespectful on the other end of the phone to another made guy that's was that big a deal he made out of it was there a chance they could have gotten killed in that meeting you know I don't know if we went that far but it might have been that they would have stripped me of my ability to get made because I was disrespectful yeah I mean it could have went that far but my guys stood up for me in a big way honestly I was right I mean I wasn't wrong you so many chickens that I can't resell because they got maggots in him I only had a my refrigerator one day so it couldn't have been my fault you know and then you start cursing me out on the other end of the phone I mean I was right in that argument so they went to bat for me in a big way and we resolved it but yeah I mean they could have at least you know stripped me of my ability to become a made guy they could have done that well we got your book I'll make you an offer you can't refuse inside our business tips from a former mob boss and in the book you talked about sit-downs you explain the difference between a sit-down and a traditional company meeting and there are certain rules in this let me go ahead and just pull it up real quick number one always come to a sit-down with both barrels loaded remind yourself to lead with your brain rather than your mouth at all times leave your ego at the door when you go to a sit-down never act like you're the weakest link in the deal and keep your cool and be respectful at all times what is the the two barrels loaded what does that mean well for me it meant this you got to know exactly what you're trying to get out of the sit-down what you're trying to win and you got to know exactly what your opponent at that point in time you got to know his personality you got to know what he's going to try to get out of it so you got to be well prepared you can't just go in there not knowing what it is you want to accomplish you also got to know what you're going to settle for because if you lose you know you have to at least get a backup position so that you know you can settle for something and then you got to try to skillfully maneuver into that position so I hope I'm explaining it right because there are rules in a sit-down for instance I could be sitting across the table from another made guy and I know he can be lying through his teeth I can't call him a liar I have to outmaneuver him and outsmart him so that you could see at the table that he's lying or do that he's not telling the truth in some way but I can't call him a liar I can't lose my temper with him I can't get upset you know to the point where you know I'm angry I'm gonna get up and walk away you have to keep you cool so basically when you come into a sit down you got to be very well prepared and you got to know how to maneuver your position because if I were to call somebody a lie or another made guy I automatically lose I'm done finished so there's certain things you just can't do you got to abide by and and these sit downs everything is decided in a sit down everything I mean whether it be life or death whether it be a business deal everything is decided so you have to know know how to skillfully nag navigate yourself through one of those meetings right and you talked about how certain sit down there's plastic on the floor already well you know listen you know that's symbolic it's not that somebody's going to die at the sit down but if it's a sit down over you know something as serious as a life-or-death situation with somebody yeah it could be decided right then and there so you got made in 1975 correct there was five other guys that were made along with you correct all five of them were murdered correct various times yes I guess a war had broke it out at some point yes we had we had a war on our family 91 to 94 95 okay what was that war over leadership you know power fella by the name of Victor Arena who was the acting boss for Persico at the time when purse going into prison the deal between them was that arena would be acting boss until juniors son Ali boy Persico who actually was my gloom bata he baptized my older boy when he came home from prison arena was supposed to give up the the spot - Ali boy well when Ali boy came home arena decided that he didn't want to give it up that he wanted to stay as the boss and the families went to war and it was the arena faction against the Persico faction and they desert killing each other yeah they did and you were close to all these guys very close that was my family okay what's that really one person ghost ride yeah III ultimately won yes ultimately won a lot of guys got killed I think 1213 guys were killed during that time once you guys went to prison as a result arena got 300 years for various murders he ordered or allegedly ordered and a whole bunch of guys got to run away okay so you were on the Persico side so the arena the arena guys were they trying to kill you were there any attempts on your life during that time well there were attempts on my life already because I had walked away and they were already trying to kill me actually was a Persico side that put the hit out on me but I actually wasn't a fan of arenas I'll tell you what happened when I had taken my plea or was about to take my plea on this big racketeering case for all that gas stuff I was in MDC in the jail with Persico in Manhattan at the time and he was locked up on this whole Giuliani case you know the whole mob Commission case and versico had come over to me and he said look you know I'm gonna make him my acting boss while I'm away and when ally boy comes home you're gonna give it up to him because Ally was in jail he was doing a 12 year prison sentence and I said jr. I can't do that I'm taking a plea I'm gonna go to jail myself so I'm taking a 10-year play I'd already negotiated it and he said well in that case I'm gonna give it to arena and I looked at him I said you know jr. you're making a mistake he said no no no I can control him I can trust him and I knew Victor Lee and a lot of guys knew Vic arena differently I said you're making a mistake but you know you're the boss you do what you want and he did give him that position and as a result arena turned against him and the families went to war so I wasn't a big fan of Vic's you know he was actually with my father he was first with us I knew him since I was a kid and a lot of guys didn't trust him and I was one of them that didn't because I knew that he used to try to undermine he actually tried to undermine me with John Gotti in the gas business I had a big sit-down with him I won the sit-down but he tried to come against me he wanted a piece of the gas business with Gotti and I wouldn't let him have it well you mentioned Giuliani and Giuliani personally went after you at one point yes and I guess he threatened to give you a hundred years which was twice the number of years that he gave your father that's correct or try to give your father correct well no no lady let me be clear Giuliani never indicted my dad my dad had already gotten 50 years early on but what he Giuliani told me is that if he convicted me on the case he was gonna give me double what my father got a hundred years got it and I was acquitted in that case okay how much interaction that you personally had with Giuliani not an elastic conversation it was just one conversation and was very brief and he didn't preside over the trial he did come into the courtroom on occasion but he had two of his assistants that prosecuted us and so that was it was my only encounter okay and Giuliani really went after the Mafia hard in New York yes and you know we talked about how in Italy they would kill cops and Lupino politicians and that type of thing but that was frowned upon in America but you said at one point you guys were actually considering killing Giuliani the conversation was brought up yes and was brought up by Persico and there were two people that normally you've had hands off on that I knew there was conversations about taking them out one was Giuliani and the other was Geraldo Rivera he just wasn't liked on the street and you know there was talk about taking him out at one point now I mean I told her although this he got scared when I told him to but it was later on later on but yeah that was talked about taking Giuliani out I mean Giuliani getting murdered by the Mafia would have really just unraveled the whole system everyone would have went to prison because it's interesting I had a guy on my show recently named Brian glaze Gibbs he was a gangster from Brooklyn but he ended up being like the enforcer for a fat cat who was the biggest you know black drug dealer out there in Queens one of the guys in fat cat screw that name by the name of Pappy Mason he ordered the murder of a rookie cop named Edward Byrne do you remember this whole situation I remember hearing about yes Edward Byrne was a rookie cop who was stationed in Queens on a drug block because this this Guyanese immigrant was always calling to complain about the drug dealers on his block saying they put a cop car in front of his house and this guy Pappy Mason ordered the execution of this a 22 year old rookie cop and that became the face of the war on drugs there are some guys in Queens that are making a lot of money Pappy Mason and Lorenzo fat cat Nichols yeah now were they in the same crew together cat was the man cat so cat was the cat cat was them was the main guy and Pappy worked for him yeah Pappy had his own [ __ ] um cat is a chess player in fact when George HW Bush was running for president he had the badge of Edward Byrne that he would bring to our members rally yes so that's what happens in America when like a cop gets executed now Giuliani at the time was he the mayor or just a prosecutor no he was a prize he was the US attorney in Manhattan okay what would happen if Giuliani was murdered all hell would've broke loose and that's why you know we it was always hands-off you didn't go after law enforcement you didn't go after politicians for that very reason because we knew at that point in time the entire you know strength of the of the federal government for sure the Justice Department would have come down on us and so we avoided it you know our thinking all the time especially the old-timers we had to be as low-key and undercover as we possibly could you know that's one of the reasons why there was some disdain for John Gotti because John was out there so much and people criticized that the old-timers always believed we have to be as low-key we don't even exist you know we're it were as low-key as possible and they tried to maintain that and for a long time it worked you know it really worked because we had so much power in this country for such a long time but you know we weren't exposed in a way that you might think yeah they dragged us in front of grand juries and so on and so forth but nothing really came of it you know and when guys went to prison they went to for a couple of years came back out and started all over again so you know when this new technology and these new laws that came out and guys you know kind of being you know out there look myself included I mean I had a lot of publicity to it didn't help doesn't help you know it only puts his bullseye on your back so you don't want to ever go after law enforcement and bring the entire wrath of the Justice Department down on you and every police force that you know locally it's watching you too so you know it's a good policy just beat him in court stay low-key and take care of our own if we have an informant we'll take care of that guy because he's one of ours but you leave law enforcement alone well you fast forward 2019 and now Giuliani is Trump's main loitered right did you deal with Trump at all you know I'm a trump probably won't even remember but I met him with Roy Cohen you know we met that I forget the club that was a private club that Roy used to go to I met Donald and we said hello in exchange niceties and so on and so forth and way back when you know myself and David Boger teen who was one of my Russian associates we bought you know condos and Trump Towers you know when it was being built way back at the time early 80s so you know I had that kind of an encounter with him but you know let me get this out right away you know Trump was not associated with the mob you know he's not didn't have relationships Trump was a developer in New York and any developer in New York had to deal with mob guys or mob associates because they dealt with the unions and every union was mobbed up every union every local every union so in order to get things done you had to deal with us in some way shape or form didn't mean that you were part of our life we didn't go out to socialize and have dinner we did with some Jerry Gutterman was one of them big developer that I you know had a lot of relationships with he eventually went to jail but you know I work personally with him but Donald wasn't one of those guys so the Teamsters were essentially run by the mob at that time yes and Jimmy Hoffa was the close associate with the mob as well he was and that's how you guys kind of got now whole situation and the Teamsters were a huge Union it was all the truck drivers and everything right that's correct and so you guys controlled the unions you also control the docks that's correct okay so you guys really had your hands and a lot of things if you guys wanted to stop New York City you essentially could do it Oh without a doubt I mean look you control the Teamsters you control trucks moving all over the country goods being shipped all over the country you call a major teamster strike you caused a lot of damage you also have understand this same thing with the docks you call a strike on the docks nothing gets moved in and out of the country you can [ __ ] the country in that way aside from that just think of the amount of money that those unions had in their pension funds and how valuable that could be to mob-related industry where many guys couldn't go to a bank and get money but they can go to with Jimmy Hoffa and say hey we need X amount of dollars to build a hotel in Vegas and Jimmy could have proved it and that's it you got the money so politicians realize that too and that's why they tried to get close to us to get the benefit of what we can do as a result of our controlling the unions so you control the unions in this country you control a major part of our political landscape as well as a major part of business I mean in 2019 is there any criminal element and the Teamsters that you know about or is it completely legitimate there are still locals that are in some way controlled by the mob and there will always be that way as far as you know at the top level I can't talk to you know what might be going on at this point in time now I'll tell you this I never put it past my former associates to work their way back into this situation I don't because they're very that's what we do you know I don't know how the young guys are as capable as guys like us were but you know we had a way to get around Pete and do our bidding or have them do our bidding for us I'll tell you this I saw the Irishman I don't know if you've seen it Scorsese's new fella like not yet you know it was good it wasn't epic it wasn't the Godfather it wasn't Goodfellas or I don't think it was in that level and I can tell you that the story was a complete lie there's no truth to the story yet certain little things that happened were you know but Sheeran did not kill Jimmy Hoffa and that whole thing it's been he's been disproved you know so often by law enforcement everybody else I'm not dissuading people from seeing the movie because it's a movie it's Hollywood it's not detainment but it's not a truthful depiction of what happened well why did you guys hate Geraldo Rivera to the point of almost putting a hit on him because he didn't write the truth about us and he wrote about us a lot you know and I think after he pulled that stunt with Al Capone's empty safe people started to think at that point tom was great for him I mean I think he had 50 million viewers at that time to open an empty safe but it got his name out there but I think at that point in time you know okay he was the guy that was going after the mob and we don't like him and he wrote some things that just you know did or reported some things that just didn't sit well with people they didn't like him well you dealt with James Comey herself also not personally but I know he was involved in in some of the investigations of friends of mine I don't know if he was involved personally in my investigation or not could have been I'm not sure but he had a bad name on the street framing people and so on and so forth you know so I always heard that about him she was saying the the guy that ended up being the director of the FBI was framing people oh absolutely absolutely Comey is listen when it came to us guys would cross the line all the time I mean look I'll tell you this and I'll tell you this and and and Vlad I'll take this to my grave okay I want you jail for a crime I was guilty of no doubt about it I'm I was in the gas business I created that scheme I de frauded the government attacks on every gallon of gasoline i pled guilty that was my crime my father did a lot of bad things in his life no doubt about it okay but that particular crime that he did all that time for my dad was framed he was no bank robber he was innocent of that crime I'll take that to my grave how do I know that I investigated that case for over 15 years we spoke to all the witnesses they told us that the FBI gave them certain dates and times to put plant my father at a meeting when he wasn't under surveillance we gave them lie-detector test we had the driver of the of the getaway cars who was the wife of the major witness against my father who said the whole thing was a frame the whole thing gave a lie-detector test took the Supreme Court news they wrote about it because they they gave her the lie-detector test we can never get the conviction overturned so does the FBI you know go after people some of them not all of them look I know a lot of good agents too now you know a Mike current life I've met up with a lot of good people but they're ones there when it comes to the mob become yeah they'll they'll go outside the law you know to try to get somebody and they'll justify it well maybe he got away with a hundred things so we'll get him on this doesn't matter and Comey was one of those guys and Comey was one of the guys that was dealer absolutely okay well at one point we talked about this in our last interview you got into the gas business and money started rolling in at a crazy rate yes and you moved down to Miami at some point well I had a house in in Palm Beach West Palm Beach yes okay and you actually got so popular in Miami that you were given a key to the city well that's for a movie that I was producing down there and I was I was putting a lot of at-risk kids to work in the film and I asked me a qualification for them working in the film they had to go to school they had to do their attendance right I had to hear back from their teachers you know so I put a lot of stipulations on them being involved with the film so as a result you know these kids were going back to school they were doing the right thing we were getting praise from the Department of Education from the teachers it was great so the mayor yeah he actually gave me a key to the city for you know putting people to work and putting the kids back in school and so on and so forth and we were sincerely doing that kind of ironic though when you think about it that you know this captain and in a the Mafia is getting a key to the city of Miami well at the same time you know that I was doing that I was defrauding the government at it and the state government to out attacks on every gallon of gasoline so we had two different operations going on obviously the mayor didn't know about that I felt bad for the guy afterwards because he didn't realize who he was given the key to the city to but it was one of those ironic things back then well you're making all this money and the money is illegal so you have to figure out how to launder that money right and you start setting up a system to launder it and I guess you put some of in the Cayman Islands correct you put some of it in Austria and you're you had it all over the place what is really if someone wants to launder money what really is the process from A to Z and in order to launder money well you know the system is a lot more sophisticated now than it was back in my day I will assume I'm not laundering money now so I don't have to test it I don't know but I've heard from others that it's very difficult now because they have so many checks and balances and so on and so forth in place but back then you know I would run money through five six seven eight nine ten different companies and ultimately have it out in Austria or the Cayman Islands or other places that we put it and to bring it back in you know we would house money the reason we did in in Austria because they had no agreement with America the same with the Cayman Islands had no agreement so I can go to Austria put a hundred million dollars in the bank take a bank loan back from them they're really lending me my own money but it comes to me in the form of a loan so nobody can say well you know how did you get the money well they borrow I went to Austria now you know they're a credit stipulation is a little different than it is here I presented a deal to them on building this place on doing that so they lent me 50 million dollars so that's one way to launder it and that's the way we would do it back then you know there's various ways now you know it's a lot more difficult like I said because they have more checks and balances in place but there's always a way to launder money okay and you had 38 million dollars in an Austrian bank account you and your partner and I guess each of you had like half of the the account number yeah it was actually 33 million principal and with interest you know it was probably more than that but we put 33 million dollars into that bank yeah and we each had an it was a numbered account so we each had half the number so we need we needed each other in order to take that money out well your partner got hemmed up yes and the government wanted that money but they needed to get you to come up with the other half of the number correct which ultimately you did correct so the government went in and seized all 38 million and then that money I guess just disappeared disappeared I never got credit for it I don't know what happened to it the only way I might have gotten credit for it was an unknown way meaning that initially the government was looking for a hundred million dollar fine out of me and they wanted 25 years in prison we negotiated down to ten years in prison and a fifteen million dollar fine and I think the fact that they got that 33 million aided us in the negotiation but still it doesn't appear anywhere that I got credit for the 33 million no where it's gone disappeared never nobody talks about it never seen it never heard of it it's gone so I can't I can't answer as to where it went I know I didn't get it I'm sure some of government official has a nice Swiss bank account somewhere some property in France and very possible well at what point you owed the government 103 million and you ended up settling for 250 thousand correct how does a settlement like that I mean we look at the difference between those two numbers it's ridiculous well because for 20 years or so they were claiming that I had all this money buried in banks everywhere and that somebody actually wrote a book about they hired an outside firm to investigate it and so they they investigated very thoroughly for almost 20 years you know to find this money and they couldn't and if they did they couldn't attach it to me so at the end of the day you know you're never going to get it you may as well settle for something but it took 20 years to get to that point it wasn't like it happened overnight so you know that money look I always say this if there is money out there that people who allegedly say was mine stolen gas tax money I doubt if I'll ever get an opportunity to use it but you know let's see what happens in the future I don't know but I'm not counting on it at this point in time can you say how much money you buried at your very height we're certainly over 100 million dollars you had over a hundred million in cash scattered over various bank accounts that you could actually pull out yes and you had a leader jet yes you had a helicopter yes what's having a helicopter like because you hear people with private jets but I've never heard of anyone who owns a helicopter helicopter was the best it was absolutely the best it was we had a bell helicopter it was great you know at the time when we were picking up money from you know the various gas stations that we operated we had a lot of cash in the helicopter at the time the FBI could not follow me they just couldn't you know we would take off from Garden City or whether we had it at the time and go anywhere and we I know we drove them crazy because they told me we did afterwards they can never keep up with us so it was the greatest tool especially in a place like New York we didn't worry about traffic I used to teach some of the agents because when I was on trial in the Giuliani case I was living out in Long Island and I would fly in every day to Manhattan took me 18 minutes you know and I would fly back so I didn't have to worry about traffic by getting there and so on and so forth so I used to tell the agents when we were leaving I said you know got a lot of traffic now I want you to jump in the helicopter with me I'll get you out there you know uh we can't do that so I used to teach them about it but it's the it was the greatest tool if I miss anything I miss the helicopter a lot more than a Learjet I bet I don't know anyone who has a helicopter honestly I can't think of anybody it was great I think Kobe Bryant had a helicopter or at least you take a helicopter to you know to work every day when you was playing for the Lakers well yeah well Kobe lives out by me now in Orange County so I can see the traffic to getting la Horrible's so as you know so a helicopter would be a great tool for him betting in gambling was a big part of your business yes and in some other interviews you talked about how you would get sports players to actually fix games when they were they would get into gambling problems themselves so can you talk about how these things would sort of progress to the point of them actually shaving points well yeah you know remember this let's separate the pros from college kids at this point in time because back in my day you know 70s and 80s pros wanted making the kind of money that they make today you know back then you know they made a half a million a million bucks was a lot of money but a lot of them gambled heavy you know you're making a half a million dollars you got a gambling habit you know it's not a lot of money especially these guys live so I want to set that perspective up for you so you know I had I wasn't in the gambling business myself in other words I wasn't a bookmaker but I had 1213 bookmakers that were working under me at that point in time now why did that happen a couple of reasons when bookmakers needed money you know to finance themselves I would lend the money no problem and secondly you know bookmakers take credit you know you don't they take credit you don't pay in advance so a lot of times they had collection problems so they would come to us to help them collect so a bookmaker always has associated some way shape or form with organized crime if they if they handle any kind of decent action right okay so I had all these bookmakers working for me and they had a lot of athletes gambling with them not only athletes but personnel you know involved with the various sports so I'll give you an example you know I would have a bookmaker call me up and say hey so-and-so is playing with the Jets the Mets whatever team you want and he's into me for 50 grand you know what do you want me to do you want me to cut him off and my answer would be why would you cut them off you're taking an entry on a piece of paper let him get into you for 250 grand 300 400 and then bring them to me and I'll resolve it and that's what would happen you know they'd get in there over their heads they'd come and see me and say hey I guess you didn't know but you know this is my operation you're gambling with me so here's the deal you owe me 250,000 how're you going to hey well I don't have the money right now okay let me tell you something I'm a big fan of yours I love the team I support the team you're not to pay me all at once okay pay me five points a week on the 250 in cash every Friday you bring it here that's it and take as long as you want well they'll do that you know for a period of a time but what they don't know that I know is that even though we cut them off there are around town gambling would another bookmaker thinking they're gonna make the money back so before you know it they're in debt four five six seven hundred thousand so now I bring them to me after the interest stops and they said look how are you gonna pay me back you got a rich uncle go rob a bounder kill what you do bring me my money you know you see they're scarce all right I got another way to work this out is how we're gonna do it okay you're a quarterback okay you're favored to win by ten points the first time first three times you get the ball you put it in the hands of the other receiver put it into defensive men's hands your running back you get the ball you put it on the ground first three times you let me worry about the rest you're gonna do this until I tell you you're not doing it anymore that's how I'll get my money back what are you gonna do get stuck and they always did that they had to shave points in order not to pay back their gambling debt they had no choice you did it out of it you know the threat is we're gonna put you in a hospital you know I didn't have to say that but they knew that because what I would tell them is a straight-out says one thing you don't understand whether you're here and he said him in in the country or you're in Vegas you're gonna pay your debt you're not going to get away with it you owe a gambling debt you have to pay and if you don't pay this serious consequences so just work along with us and that's it that's all you had to say have you ever had to actually hurt a person who didn't want to go along with this you know what I person being honest with you I personally didn't and it was very rare that you did because if you get an athlete to work with you two or three games pretty well you're gonna get your money back and unless you let him go in to get into you for millions which nobody's going to do nobody's going to do because they know at that point there's nothing again but did I hear of guys getting hurt yeah but it was rare I want to be on because you didn't have to do that okay now you don't have to name any names but these guys that were shaving points can you tell me the team in the position that they played at the time and you know there's multiple quarterbacks there's multiple running backs people won't know exactly who we're talking about but can you tell me the the team name and the position of these guys that shave points for you you know I got in trouble once okay when I did an interview for a big Network and they tried to get me to do this and I said look I'm not going to name names first of all it's gonna open up a whole big thing I know as soon as I say somebody this is gonna go wide and I can't do that and it's not going to accomplish anything so let me tell you this what in New York teams involved yeah weather teams around the country involve yes some people point to games where they can swear that had to be something done and you know in some cases they might be right you know was it was a little bit obvious but look it happens there's no question about it and and it's going to continue to happen not as much on a pro level because these guys are making so much money but you know you got to watch out for referees let me let me tell you this let me set this up and see if this makes sense to you you got a referee in an NBA game okay you got the Lakers now a favored to win by 10 points favorite to win by 10 points it's Christmas time this referee okay need some extra money maybe it's something in his family a sickness or whatever maybe needs a few who knows what he might need money for okay the Lakers have favored to win by 10 points okay you know this a referee can call a foul every time these players move down the court or he doesn't have to call it if he misses it right so let's say Lakers are favored to win by 10 he puts a get a bet against the spread remember it's the spread it's not winning or losing so how did you manipulate that he puts LeBron James on the bench with two extra three extra fouls keeps him on down at three four five minutes longer he does that the same one or two of their key plays he manipulate that spread so easily over a period of time that common sense tells you okay it could happen now is every referee honest and upright I'll leave that for you to decide okay so does this happen of course it happens there's too much money in it for it not to happen well in 2007 NBA referee Tim Donaghy actually found guilty of gambling was he involved with the Mafia at all or that was just personal gambling he was doing he unwittingly he was involved you know he well when I say I'd would agree I don't think he knew the extent of the involvement but he was involved with a couple of guys that were involved with mob guys so you know we don't have to be that overt all the time there's other guys in between so but yeah I know Tim you know we've had many conversations and look he was doing what he was doing at that time he couldn't blame the NBA I know he blamed the NBA and all of that and you know I'm not going to get into that and you know he has his reasoning for saying what he said but you know let me tell you this the problem with these things is that you talk too much if a referee is doing that on his own if I was a referee and I had my son my cousin my best friend that I trusted more than anything okay I would work with that one person I would never open my mouth he would know exactly that we tell him hey put a bet on so-and-so and that's it end of conversation and you trust that guy he's never going to give you up you know the problem is when you start talking about it and you go crazy and you do it too much and you know that's when you get caught but if you keep this very close to the vest that's gonna be very hard for you to get caught okay so you actually knew Tim while he was gambling or no I knew him afterwards not while there's gambling god what is different with the Russian mob as opposed to the the Mafia well my experience with them a couple of things number one they were very bright very bright I mean you know the Russian mob guys that I would dealing with were engineers one you know had a degree in engineering he actually Mike Markowitz actually invent did a taxi meter that was revolutionary at the time that he was selling to you know I think yellow cab I don't remember exactly very smart guy number one number two they were not afraid of our justice system here some of them had criminal experience back in Russia and going to a prison here in the in you know the United States would be like a camp to them so they weren't afraid of our justice system they were smart and they wanted to make money and they were used to the black market stuff because in Russia I mean I think after country is run on the black market so not none of that worried them and they were very closed mouth at least when I deal with them I got along great with them they were great partners great partners and we made a ton of money together so and they're a group that I think you you need I've told people they're the ones that you need to be concerned with because they know how to move quietly they'll they'll you know resort to violence if they need to be and people know that and they're very smart you know and look I think that I played a role by teaching them how to defraud the government on tax on every gallon of gasoline I think I taught them how to defraud Medicare and in our health system because they're into that pretty heavy now from what I understand and they've made a tremendous amount of money and I think that I'm the one that showed them target the federal government because they're not too good in that collection the way they collect money so yeah well I mean I'm rushing myself and you know my people are not not the most honest well the basics of the Mafia in terms of how they make money is protection extortion and gambling that's right you wrote that in your book actually yeah any protection you know Union involvement at the time yeah I think so protection extortion gambling yeah gambling will always be a major source of income always okay what is the protection part what does that entail well a lot of times you're protecting somebody from your own you know the way I got involved in the gas business very simple - guys were extorting Larry I original you know that name they're trying to get involved and get a piece of his company that was shaking him down and eventually they would have done that okay threats of violence the whole thing Larry came to me to protect me from them and so I said okay if you're with me nobody's gonna bother you except me so how are we gonna make money together because what what benefit of it is is it to me to protect you from them if I don't get a benefit out of it and that's when we started to talk about you know defrauding the government so most of the times you're being protected from our own because especially in New York when there's so many guys you know I mean look New York you stumble over each other believe me so guys we're always trying to extort a business or get involved with somebody and the business owner would run to somebody else for help say okay I'll help you but how's it gonna benefit me so that's that's one way how does the whole extortion business work well it's like I said let's say the unions were a great tool for us to extort somebody a business so on and so forth give you an example let's say there's a restaurant or a club in Manhattan that has a lot of employees but they're not unionized now I used to control the waitresses and bartenders Union I had a local that I controlled so we would send buddy as somebody into a particular restaurant had a lot of employees and say look is the deal we're going to unionize and they can't stop you from trying to unionize your employees we're gonna start to bring the Union in here you got 50 employees and up you don't have a union and that's not fair to your workers we're gonna bring the union in they don't want that obviously but I said here's a deal if you don't want the union every Christmas I want you to give me twenty thousand dollars you do that I'll keep the Union out that's a form of extortion really you know because you're threatened of doing something and you know for getting money in return so that's extortion so you know and we use the union's a lot to operate way a lot you know same thing with Jerry Gutterman so let's say you know we use the unions were a major tool for us to extort a business give an example I had under my control a major apartment to co-op conversion there was a major one it was in Queens New York was the biggest one in the country we converted thirty five hundred apartments into coops at the time the union was going in to unionize every trade in there it would of course the the the Builder the owner rather at least another twenty five thirty million dollars to do the job if we had the Union at that because was huge job so I had somebody in there that was working under them it was kind of a contractor in there and I had him go speak to the owner and say look I have a contact and he can keep the Union out talk to him so I sat down with government at the time we made a deal I said I'm gonna keep the Union out basically but you're going to use my general contractor from this point on the only way I can keep the Union out is by me being in control of your contracting here and you're gonna pay me X amount of dollars every quarter so I got paid from him for keeping the Union out to a large degree plus I made money by having my general contractor in there to run the job saved him a lot of money I made a lot of money everybody was happy but it is a form of extortion oh yeah that's definitely sourcing now in your book you talked about how Machiavelli was like a cornerstone in terms of how the Mafia operated yes and this was a you know a central figure during the Italian Renaissance he wrote this book called the prince that would help you know leaders in his country rule and it's interesting because this was also a book that Tupac was heavily influenced by when he was in prison and when he came out his last album he actually changed his name to Machiavelli really I didn't know that smart yeah Tupac yeah Tupac's last album was under the Machiavelli as opposed to to pocketing but you talked about how the Machiavellian principle is really not a very good principle in terms of how to live your life can you explain that well yeah and Machiavelli was kind of the patron saint of the mob when you went into prison it was almost required reading that you read the prince and just to explain the prints in the Prince Machiavelli is supposed to consult or guide the prince and give him guiding principles on how to maintain control of his country of his leadership and one of the main principles was this he told the prince that you could do anything that you need to do you can lie you can steal you can cheat you can kill you can do anything you need to do to maintain power because that's the major goal maintain power and control over your kingdom but in doing so you must always appear to the outside person to be upright to have integrity and to be honest and that's the Machiavellian way the end justifies the mean anything goes but you have to appear to be upright honest and have integrity and to a large degree you know with certain things that's how the mob operated we got what we want the end justifies the means as long as we get what we want in the end what we're supposed to do it in a way that shows that we have honor and integrity and honesty among one another so that's it now is that a good way to live of course not because it has no restrictions on you as a matter of fact Machiavelli it says it's better okay for you to have no one's no restrictions on you because then you can do anything that you want as long as you appear to have restrictions on you in that way morally so is it a good way to live of course not because then anything goes you can why you can still you can cheat you can do anything that you want in order to maintain control and to get what you want so obviously it's not a good way to live and in the end you're going to fail as a result of that well you talked about how fear is a major emotion in mafia life but at one point the government became more feared than the other mob guys well that's what happened you know in the mid when they started to use the racketeering laws when they started to use the bail Reform Act you got no bail if you were a danger to community or you were a flight risk you know and and anybody can be a danger to community if you're in the mob you're automatically a danger to community so they use that to hold you without bail very difficult to fight a case from inside you know rather than when you're outside and you can do it you know along with your your representation so they used all of these tools to make the government more feared than the mob now what do I mean by that racketeering laws you get convicted in one count of racketeering you can go away for 20 years you don't get parole anymore meaning you have to do seventeen and a half on the 20 way back when glad you know anybody can do you get 10 years you get 15 years okay you get parole you do seven and a half you do nine you're ten anybody can do that today what they did with those racketeering laws that they say you get convicted you're gonna wait for the rest of your life that's it unless you want to talk to us you want to talk to us we'll put you in a program we'll give you a cushion a deal and you'll get out we'll change your name give you some money and we'll preserve your life a lot of guys did not stand up all over that and there was a talk at the time that it was all the young guys that weren't standing up that's not true there's a lot of old-timers that weren't you know Joey Messina Joey Messina the boss of the other family okay he got I think 300 years he made a deal after he was convicted when he was inside because you don't want to do that kind of time it's a whole different mindset so you know that's what really when you you give anyone reason for the mobs demise that's the reason the racketeering law and guys on the street became more afraid of the government and doing that kind of time than they did the guys on the street they just transferred the fear to the government yeah it makes sense makes sense now in our last interview you talked about how you knew Sammy the bull yes and this guy he admitted to 15 murders he admitted to 19 murders 19 murders okay how close were you to Sammy I wasn't close to him I knew him you know I was closer to John Gotti and I wasn't you know I can't say John and I hung out we were friends we had a couple of business dealings they were actually disputes and we hung out socially at times I met John so and I liked his family a lot until today okay he's got to go to good family Sammy I knew you know we bumped into him and weddings and so on and so forth and I met him on occasion met him with John but we weren't close did you know richard kuklinski the ice mint I did not know and a lot of a lot of that was blown up quite a bit with Kosinski believe me okay how many guys did you know that were like Sammy that really just like killing people that really were serial killers oh look I knew the DeMaio's I knew Roy DeMeo and you know they had that reputation they were the guys that did a lot of work you know a guy like Greg Scarpa who you know used to claim he enjoyed to do that kind of work so I knew Greg well he was he was with us you know with the Colombo's you know Persico had that reputation too so you know and they presented themselves that way so you know I guess I knew a lot of guys like that look you know at least outwardly presented themselves as whether they enjoyed it or not now I heard a recent interview with Sammy where he was asked you know you know can you committed 19 murders and Sammy said well how do you know how I felt you know when I committed those murders and he he said he felt bad about it he actually stated that you know he stood in front of the coffin at a funeral or awake I would say of one guy that he murdered and it was actually mentally yelling at the guy saying look what you made me do you violated the rules and you made me kill you he actually if that's not Machiavelli and I don't know what is but he actually turned it on the guy that he killed and blamed him for having Sammy kill him and I want to say to you do that 19 times Sammy but any but look I don't know I mean you know I don't know if Sammy enjoyed it or not I can't get inside of his head but 19 murders is a lot of murders well yeah I just interviewed uh you know I'd mentioned him before Brian glaze Gibbs he talked about in our interview about six different people that he killed including two women and at the end of the interview I talked about how he doesn't seem very remorseful you know I've interviewed a number of people that have committed murder through various means you know one guy there was a home invasion you know killing the guy and he was like literally crying as he was describing it you know and another guy ended up killing his daughters uncle over over an argument and then you know he talked about how he missed his whole life up this guy really just calmly talked about all the various people he killed and it's interesting how a lot of people especially once you start doing it over and over again it just doesn't become a big deal anymore it's just something you do as part of your job you're telling me this story there's not a lot of emotion he's coming with this and you know what it's like right now yet years this is something that I've been battling with foot of my life this is something I've battled with over 30 years the kid is right now is this like I told you right now where's I don't have to put on a scene or front and like you know like camera action and you see tears the bottom lines right now if you see some other interviews like right now is when certain things hit you it's not an act you company and to me regardless of what like I say only thing I got is my worry as far as like my action my behavior I'm very you know saying remorseful for that because once again Who am I to say who labor who died lad I'm not God I [ __ ] up and I can omit that and this like I say throughout my years I've been beating up myself for over thirty years based upon my behavior so with these guys or whatever you know what you know like you know like comparison there's no comparison everybody react differently or whatever when we start sitting back talking about it or whatever even right now I got a clip I wish I could give you from inside the monarchy whatever when I start talking my so these people legacy I took mom's away I took you know I'm saying come on won't my to say will everyone die so I don't got to pretend with you that's not what this is all about the whole key if I had a chance to do it all over again if I can trade my life for their life guess what we wouldn't even be here you know I think some people do view it that way unfortunately I've met people that have spoke to me that way you know during my time in that life hey you know it's a job we do it and that's it to me it's a horrible thing Vlada I can't see it that way unfortunately I've been around people that you know I cared about that were gone the next day that were murdered and it was it was difficult to deal with look I'm not gonna I'm not gonna you know say that I'm not capable of but obviously I am if somebody hurt my my wife children people that I loved but I certainly wouldn't be joyous about it I wouldn't go on and talk about it I don't it's it's an uncomfortable topic for me and I think it should be for most people but unfortunately it's not that way and they're all people that just it's it's another thing in life and you know it's tough to know that but it's true you know in your book when you know you apply some of the Mafia principles to business you said something interesting you said mobsters do one thing which might also be worth emulating they like to keep things simple to cut to the chase as a result are good at eliminating the clutter that they can get in the way of productive endeavors they try to create a clear and easy path from where they are to the money lay out your business plan and then find ways to get to where you want to be with this little friction as possible I thought that was interesting described like during the Mafia times when you would you know get rid of the clutter in order to get to the money well you know I mean look these are not these are not brain surgeons guys on the street you know I mean and I'm not demeaning anybody but I mean when it comes to business a lot of guys were just not that you know equipped to deal with things you know it's a straight line to the money how do we get it you know that's it so I mean I can't describe a particular case because my mindset was a little different although you know I am that way you know I want to get to the bottom line as quickly as I can and as easy as I can I don't think I can describe something in particular at this point in time but you know in the gas business you know when I ERISA was explaining things to me I said look this is complicated tell me how do we get from A to Z really quickly what do we have to do let's set up a system that gets the money to us as quickly as possible so that we can put it where we need to put it use it the way we need to use it and we devised the scheme without getting into the detail that allowed us to do that you know so but you know people today in business I understand when I sometimes people sit down they give me all these complicated ways that they're gonna make money and and they don't really know what they're doing or what they're describing so I don't know like I said I can't give you some particular instances right now but it's just that's how I mob guys are you know hey if there's money in that room how do we break this safe open and get to it you know if there's money in that business how do we get everybody out of the way and steal it and that's it and when that's how we talked about it and you got to get a particular place and I would tell you how we did it well you know you talked about in one of your books that you said there's no doubt in my mind that many of the mob bosses who were successful and organized crime would have been equally as successful as CEOs oh no doubt my father I think could have been a successful guy he had a good mind Persico was a very smart guy if he would have put his talent in another way I think so I mean just you know unfortunately these were guys on the street you know I don't I wouldn't necessarily say that about John Gotti I don't think he was he had a good grasp of business Sammy obviously he was a good business man you know and people knew that he was smart in that regard so there were a lot of guys that was successful on the street that if they would have put their talents legitimately I think they would have done well now that's not the that's not the rule a lot of guys on the street that they just couldn't earn any kind of money anyway we had to support them so there is a definite separation there look the reason that they kept me where they kept me because I had a head for business I was able to earn for the family and therefore a lot of the grunt work a lot of the other work they didn't want that from me now you keep bringing money into us we'll let these guys that are doing nothing that we're supporting let them do the heavy work in that regard and you know that's kind of the distinct that's excuse me the distinction in that life you you talked about in that same passage that these mob bosses they're required to live a lifestyle where every day route you know presents a challenge just to survive where every friend is your potential enemy or a board meeting just might prove to be the last encounter on earth and and that really kind of puts in perspective as someone who has a company and it has company meetings and so forth I don't look at the people around me okay if this meeting goes bad I might get killed the next day so it's not quite as serious to me as I'm speaking but I guess in order to keep this type of organization where yeah these guys might all turn against you whether they want your spot or whether they're working with the police and so forth you actually have to be respectful you have to be polite and you have to really use these principles to a very elevated degree or else things might go really bad really quickly and I can see how that could apply to a regular business as well Vlad there's always somebody in the room that either wants what you have that doesn't like you that's trying to undermine you or would undermine you in some way if they could I don't care if it's your best friend or you think it's your best friend you know that's the nature of that life you always have to be aware of who you're dealing with and and you know that life is like a wheel it turns you know a guy that's on the bottom today it could be your boss or could be on the top you know the next day so you always had to be very careful you know who you might offend you know who you might say something wrong about and I think a lot of times in business it's the same way you know people resent you if you're the owner you know they you know people that work with you look it's happening in our government you know people are resentful for Trump for whatever reason they may be right they may be wrong I don't know but he's got people around him all the time he's got to be aware of and and who may undermine him it's the same thing in business you know somebody wants your spots somebody wants to make a little money somebody's resentful of what you did and you you try your best not to give them an opening I've seen that in business many times I've seen people try to you know undercut nunim are happy people come to me that are working you know for their boss that are looking to steal money from them I happen to me quite a bit you know when I was on the street so you know you just got to be very skillful and how you deal with people I'm very guarded no matter what I think no matter what lifestyle you're in I agree I agree I've had people within my own company that try to destroy the company from within unsuccessfully but it's crazy how you're paying a person and yet they're trying to hurt you as they're being paid it's kind of a crazy concept but at least they weren't trying to kill me but it's the same type of thing exactly in our life you can get killed listen you know I'm a person of faith now there's no hiding that I've seen it happen in the church where people and it's happened many times where churches split because one is undermining the pastor and so on and so forth it happened in my own family with with my wife's brother so I mean it's human nature so whatever it is that you're doing you have to be guarded on the street it's more serious because you offend somebody you do something wrong like Paul Castellano he didn't have a lot of people like them because they thought he was greedy he wasn't he didn't make people around him make money so you give a guy like that or somebody an opportunity you know to undermine you or to take you out you're going down that's why when God he took out Castellano there weren't a lot of people crying over it because he wasn't well-liked for that reason you know so and and and if there were a lot of people crying crying about it God he would have paid the price but he didn't and I think that's the reason well there's a saying that the only way to leave the Mafia is in a coffin you left them off here how many years ago I consider myself formally removed in really in the late 90s 95 96 20 almost 25 years in the beginning you talked about how you didn't put any of the bills in your name you didn't go to any clubs you didn't go to the same restaurants you wouldn't walk your dog and so forth and you actually had to evacuate your house because there was a tip that someone might try to kill you at the beginning do you still feel that way in 2019 you know I don't you know I want to make this clear I never lived in fear when I left that life I was always cautious I was disciplined in how you know I went about my my daily life because I had to be I didn't sell my former associates short especially Persico he was very capable guy very upset when I walked away from the life and obviously he put the contract out on me had Persico been on the street and not in prison I probably would have had a real problem because I don't think he would have he would have ever given up he would have been relentless in coming after me until the job was done so it had to be me on him as something would have had it been done I really believe that until today but that didn't happen so and remember this I think I described it last time I was walked into a room one night when I was in that life and I didn't think I was going to walk out again and unfortunately one of the horrors of that life is you make a mistake your best friend walked you into a room you don't walk out enough obviously I witnessed that in my lifetime so I realized that I could face death I faced death in one point in time and whether it be my perception or not I was scared that night I thought I was going to get killed and yet I walked into the room so and people said well man that was very heroic it wasn't heroic it was robotic I was such a product at a life and I had known hey if this is it this is it you know and I was scared I'm not gonna deny it I was scared walking in that room when that door opened III don't know how I didn't faint because when you think you're going at that moment it's pretty scary so I took that with me I took that feeling with me and I said well if they're gonna come and get me they're not walking me into a room they're gonna have to work to get me and so I I protected myself his best way I know how you know Vlad so I never lived in fear and I also knew that you know I had the ability to retaliate if somebody was going to go one-on-one with me they better be prepared and I you know I I was I was very mindful of that now do I feel that way today no I mean I'm not you know I'm not gonna go back into Brooklyn so hey guys I'm moving back into the neighborhood I wouldn't last 48 hours but I'm not gonna thumb my nose in anybody's face so you know is the heat off of me yeah I mean look I didn't put anybody in prison I did not put anybody in prison I did not cooperate against my former associates yes I talked to the government yes I talked about that life but I never wanted to hurt anybody I never wanted to put anybody I wasn't mad at anybody I wanted out at a life for other reasons so I think all of those things you know and of course because I'm a person of faith I think you know God had a different purpose for my life it's become obvious you know with what I've been doing for the last 23 years so I do not live in fear and and hopefully it'll continue like that and you know I don't like a walk out of here and somebody gonna bullet in my head waiting for me I mean it's that possibility there yeah I remember this you know I I do big speaking events I have hundreds of people online you know waiting to sign a book for me to sign a book and say hello and take a picture I don't know who everybody is on that line now sometimes there's security there a lot of times there is a lot of times there isn't so who knows maybe some guy wants to make a name for himself you know and and be a hero they'd come up to me and I'm gone I don't know do I fear it no and my mindful of it yeah every day and I'm not kidding whether it be online or whatever people are asking me it for advice personal advice how to run their life because they say if I can survive in this life after the things that I did maybe it could you know it could be helpful to them so I've been kind of like a personal life coach for the last 20-some odd years and the same thing in business because I had success on the street and I have some success now I'm actually going formally into the coaching arena so to speak and I'm going to be announcing that fairly soon we've built the website gonna build a company on it I just want them to mention that so we're gonna be putting it out there and it's something I enjoy doing I like helping people encouraging people giving them whatever advice they can at some point in time I want them to mention it because people will have access to me in that regard and just look right after the holidays we'll be making an announcement about that and about that red no hopefully it'll it'll work out for not only myself but for everybody else involved and interested well Michael Franzese appreciate you coming in now for the second time congratulations on turning your life around you're very much in the minority of people who came from that life who are not dead or doing life in prison and you know not only did you turn your life around but you're not in protective custody you're not hiding somewhere you didn't get plastic surgery and you know trying to distance yourself you actually embraced who was that you are you took responsibility for it you didn't talk about how much of a victim you were how the government was out to get you the whole time you owned your mistakes and you're using them to better your future and I think that's something that everyone should applaud well I appreciate that well and and you know I thank you for giving me the opportunity to come and speak and you've been a great interviewer and anytime we can do this you know I'll make myself available so thanks a lot absolutely until next time peace take care

Channel: djvlad

Views: 3,140,825

Keywords: VladTV, DJ Vlad, Interview, Hip-Hop, Rap, News, Gossip, Rumors, Drama, Michael Franzese

Id: wVjp1VqYQ1g

Length: 110min 43sec (6643 seconds)

Published: Tue Dec 24 2019