- [Mark] All right. So Michael, Michael Franzese. - That's it, you got it.
- Excellent. Let me do a brief intro and you'll maybe help me
with some of the details. So the best story that
sums up everything is, back in the '80s "Fortune
Magazine" did a cover story on the 50 biggest, most
money-making mob bosses. - Right. - [Mark] And you were, I
think, number 18 at the time? - Correct. - [Mark] And your father
was also a mobster? - He was. - [Mark] And you had an
illustrious career in the mob. I guess, where should we start
with your childhood, I guess? - Yeah, I guess, you know, I mean, obviously I grew up under that influence. My dad was a very prominent figure during the 1960s especially, he's, kind of, like the
John Gotti of his day. - Oh, is that right?
- Yeah. He was a tremendous amount
of publicity, you know, a lot of media attention, a major, major target of law enforcement. It was almost like, you
know, I used to think "Why did they pick him
out out of all the people "that were around at that point in time?" But he really was the kind of media star at that point in time. - [Mark] Apparently there's stories of him and Marilyn Monroe
running around together? - Yeah, well, you know,
he revealed that to me a little bit later on after
my mother passed away. 'Cause I asked him, I said,
"Dad, you know, why you? "Why did they, you know, have
this concentration fascination "with you at the time?" Long story short, he said
he was dating Marilyn Monroe and Bobby Kennedy found out about it, and from that point on
Kennedy made my father his target and ordered
Hoover to go after him. And you know, it makes
sense, I'll be honest. My dad, sometimes, you
know, he embellishes things a little bit, but that story makes sense. - [Mark] And he knows how to
keep a secret very well too. - He does, yes. - [Mark] So as a kid growing
up with a father like your dad, how was your childhood
different than most people? - Was a lot different, I mean, you know, back then
the law enforcement tactics against organized crime were
very different than today. I mean, today everything's very covert, undercover informants,
high-tech surveillance. Back then when a guy
was under investigation they wanted you to know about it. And my dad was under investigation maybe seven or eight
different agencies, FBI, IRS, Queen Detective, Brooklyn
DA, they were all there. And they would have a car
parked around my house 24 hours a day, seven days a week 'cause he was under constant surveillance. So, you know, I was one of seven kids, and every time we went anywhere we had a parade of law
enforcement vehicles following us. It was just the way it was. And that was for several years. And so, you know, I mean,
look, my dad was my hero, he was a great father, I loved him. So I grew up actually
hating law enforcement, and I had many little scuffles
with them as a kid, you know, and so that was kind of
the environment I was in. - [Mark] And then your
plans, as you grew up were not to follow in
your dad's footsteps. You were actually pre pre-med, I think? - Yeah, I was a pre-med student. I was an athlete. I had no desire to be,
become a member of his life, mainly because my dad
didn't discuss it with me. He didn't talk to me about it. He'd encourage me. You know, one thing I really respected about him, many thing's
obviously, but he never brought what was going
on in the outside world into our house. In the house we were a family. So he never talked about it. He didn't acknowledge who he
was, you know, none of that. So to me, I'm playing ball, you know, if you said to me as a kid, who would I like to emulate? What would I like to be? I wanted to play center field
for the New York Yankees, Mickey Mantle was kinda my guy. So no, I didn't aspire to be in that life but I was gonna be a doctor. My dad wanted me to go to medical school, so that's what I was pursuing. And, you know, until
he got in some trouble and things changed for me. - What changed your direction? - Well, my dad was indicted several times in the early '60s, three serious charges in the state of New York, and he went to trial,
beat them all, you know. But then he was indicted in
federal court for masterminding a nationwide string of
bank robberies, convicted, sentenced to 50 years in prison. - 50?
- 50. Which was kind of a death
sentence for him at that point, he was 50 years old when he went in. So I figured he'd never
come out of prison alive. So, you know, at that time,
Joe Colombo, he kind of took me under his wing. He had just started the Italian American Civil Rights League. - Joe Colombo is the head of the Colombo family.
- Joe Colombo was the boss of all family, yeah. - One of the Big Five Families in New York?
- Correct. And we were close, you know, he kinda took me under his wing. My dad and him obviously were close, my dad was his underboss. So, you know, I got highly
influenced by a lot of my dad's friends saying, "Mike, what
are you doing going to school?" If you don't help your dad
out, he's gonna die in prison. So, you know, I lost interest in school. Then I was picketing the FBI every day with Colombo in that league. So I was meeting a lot of guys, I was getting, you know, all the courage that maybe the league would help my dad. So it was kind of a
direction change for me. And I went to see him
Leavenworth, and we sat down, I said, "Dad, I'm not going to school. "If I don't help you out,
you're gonna die in here." And, you know, we kinda
went back and forth 'cause he didn't want that for me. But he knew my mind was made up, I was pretty headstrong as a kid. And he said, "Okay, but if
you're gonna be on the street "I want you to on the
street the right way." And in his mind the
right way was to become a member of his life. So it was at that point that he proposed me from
membership into that life. - And so what's the first step? You started doing small? - Yeah, well he sends
word downtown, you know, and he said to me, "Just
do whatever he told." He knew I had it in me, so otherwise he wouldn't have done that, and so I went, About two weeks after that visit a captain in the family took me to see the boss. Now, many people don't
know is some people do that Joe Colombo was assassinated and there was an attempt on his life. He eventually died from the wounds. A new boss took over,
his name was Tom DiBella, has passed on now, and I sat with him. And he said, "I got a
message from your father, "he said, you want to
become a member of our life, "is that true? I said, "Yes." He said, "Well, here's the deal, "from now on 24 hours a
day, seven days a week "you're on call to serve this
family, the Colombo family." And to show me how serious that was, he said, "That means
if your mother is sick "and dying and you're at her bedside, "we call you to service, "you leave your mother,
you come and serve us. "From now on we're number one in your life "before anything and everything. "When, if we feel you
deserve this privilege, "this honor to become a
member we'll let you know." So I was 21, close to 22 years old, I was in like a recruit
period where I had to do anything and everything I was told to do to prove myself worthy. - [Mark] And those included
what kind of things? - Well, listen, you
know, it could have been something very menial. There's a lot of discipline in that life, a lot of authority, you know. You had a meeting at seven o'clock, you weren't there at 06:30 you were late, you could never be late in that life. Drive the boss to a meeting,
you know, sit in a car for five hours. God forbid you leave, you go
get a newspaper, a restroom, he comes out, you're not
there, you're in trouble. I know I did that once paid the price. But you know, a lot of stuff like that. I mean, you had to show that
you could take authority and that you would disciplined
and so on and forth. And then, you know, look, I'm always as honest
as I can be about that. You know, the life is very violent, and if you're part of that life,
you're part of the violence and there's no escape. Anybody tells you differently, they're either not being honest with you or they weren't a made
member of that life. - [Mark] That went on for how many years? - About two years, 18 months, two years, something like that, I was
in this recruit period. - [Mark] And you were
great, everybody thought you were a good fit? And what happened? - It seems that way, yeah. It was Halloween night,
1975 when I was called into a room with five other
gentlemen, all recruits. The interesting thing
at that point was that they had an expression
just before that period where the books were closed in that life, meaning they weren't bringing
in any new members formally. And in the early '70s
they opened up the books and I was inducted with guys
that were waiting 20, 25 years, they were recruits that long, yeah. So it was kind of a mix
in there that night, but we all took an oath that night, became sworn, made members
of the Colombo family. - [Mark] How many? - There were six of us. - Six of you?.
- Yeah. - [Mark] And you were how old? - I was 24.
- 24. - [Mark] So, you know, I heard a story of those six gentlemen that
were inducted that night. How many of them are still around? - Well, out of the six of
us, I'm the only one alive. The other five were all, they all died. And from what I understand,
they were all murdered. - [Mark] It's so dangerous
treacherous career. - It's a tough life, no doubt. - [Mark] And there was a
ceremony involved as well, right? Tell me about that briefly. - It was a very solemn ceremony, you know, dimly lit room, late at night, they wanted you to
understand the, you know, the seriousness of what you
were getting involved in. And we walked into a room individually, the boss was seated at the head of like a horseshoe configuration; underboss, consiglieres left and
right, and all the captains alongside of them. We had about 15 in our
family at that point. Walked down the aisle,
stood in front of the boss held out my hand. He takes a knife, cuts my fingers, some blood drops on the floor. This is a blood oath. I cupped my hands, he
took a picture of a saint, Catholic altar card, put it
in my hands, lit a flame. Didn't hurt, it burned quickly,
it was merely symbolic. And he said, "Tonight, Michael Franzese "you are born again into a new
life, into La Cosa Nostra," this thing of ours. "Violate what you know about this life, "betray your brothers and
you will die and burn in hell "like the Saint is burning in your hands." And he said, "Do you accept?" "Yes, I do." - And then what changes
after that happens? You can start becoming who? - Well, you know, you
kind of find your way in that life and you
either, how can I put it? You separate yourself
in being in one category or the other, even
though we're all capable of doing what we need to do
and what we're told to do, but some of us were
earners, I would call us, and some of us weren't, you know. And unfortunately the
greater percentage of us were not earners. But in our family at that time, you know, we had 115 made guys, guys
that actually took the oath, a lot of more are associates, but guys that actually took the oath. Out of the 115, I think 20
of us were real earners. - [Mark] Some were the brains
and some were the brawn. - Yeah, yeah. And you know, the other
95 guys they're, you know, getting by doing some of
the heavy work, you know. Who's got a gambling issue,
who's getting a union job you know, we tried to take
care of them, but you know, it's just the way it goes. Like anything else you kind of separate
yourself in that life. - [Mark] And what kind of, I
mean, so what were the first like business endeavors
that you were engaged in? - Well, you know, I was
fortunate in that I understood early on how to use that life
to benefit me in business, and I had a head for business I would say. I was very aggressive on the street, brought some new things into the family. But I really started out, you
know, my dad had me working in an autobody shop when
he was home, you know, just helping some guys, so I started out in the car business, that turned into me owning two dealerships at that time, I built it up. I had a used car lot, I
had a leasing company, I had body shop. So I had a pretty big
business that I, kind of, grew in a short period of time. And then, you know, along with that life you saw people come your way and they they offer you deals, and, you know, you accept or you reject depending upon the quality
of what's going on. And before you know it I had several different interests. I owned nightclubs, I had restaurants, I had, again, a leasing company. I ended up with a production
company in California. So I had a bunch of
different things going on and was able to turn things
into successful operations. - [Mark] That's great. And then eventually you got
you hooked into something that was what, I guess, has been described as the most lucrative thing the mob has ever been involved
in since Al Capone, yeah? - Yeah, it actually the gas business. And, you know, very long
story short, I got approached by someone at a small
wholesale operation selling gas out in Long Island. And there was two guys from another family trying to extort him, shake him down, and he came to me to help. I was kind of the guy on Long Island. And so I helped him out and together we devise a scheme to
defraud the government out of tax on every gallon of gasoline. And that grew from a very small
operation to at its height, after eight years, I ran
it for about eight years. We had over 350 stations that
we either owned or operated. We had 18 wholesale
companies that were licensed to collect the tax on
every gallon of gasoline. And we built that up to
selling half a billion gallons of gas a month, and we
were taking down 20, 30 40 cents a gallon,
depending upon the deals. So, you know, it was very lucrative, we brought in, you know,
at times seven, eight $10 million a week. - A week?
- It was that big, yeah. It was a big operation. I brought the Russians
in from a Brighton Beach, and it was a, you know, it was described as the most lucrative operation since the days of prohibition, and I saw it that way also. - [Mark] And that made you
star amongst your cohorts? - When you're making that kind of money, money is power in that life, and, you know, I got the attention of some of the other families. And so I made, you know,
relationships, which is important in that life to have allies
in the other families. So tried to spread some of the
wealth around and, you know, make people happy, and money
buys loyalty in that regard, so yeah, I started to
make a name for myself. - [Mark] That's great. At one of the funniest little stories I heard you share once was, is it "Big Vinnie" that that
helped get this off the ground, and he came in with a box one day? He was a butcher.
- Yeah, Vinnie, Vinnie was a butcher and
he was one of my guys, trusted guy, big, you
know, ominous looking guy, big scar across the top
of his head, a butcher. And so I had put him with this guy, Larry that came to me with this
whole proposal for gas. And after two weeks in
the operation, he comes to my house with, he used to
bring me meet every Saturday and now he's carrying a big box, and I said, "What do we having a party? "What are we gonna do with all this meat?" Brings it in the kitchen,
puts it on the table, and he says, "It ain't me boss." He said, "It's the first
week's taking at gas station." Opens it up $320,000,
smelled like gasoline, smelled up the whole kitchen, but I didn't care at that point. But we grew that 320 and too, like I said, close to $10 million a week. - Wow! And so at some point I'm sure, the Colombo
boss at the time was-- - Persico.
- Persico. - Carmine Persico, yeah. - [Mark] What was his reaction to this? - Well, you know, when I
knew what I had, you know, you've gotta be very,
very careful in that life, if too many people get involved everything goes up in smoke. It happens all the time. So when I went to him I told him, I said,
"Junior, called him Junior, I said, "Look, I'm gonna show more money "than you over saw in your life." And he looked at me right away, "It's not drugs, we don't do drugs." I said, "It's not drugs, "you know, I hate drugs,
personally I hate drugs." Had it in my family. I said, "It's gas." I said, "You're not gonna understand it," I said, "But I got this
operation under control, "nobody else is gonna be at risk. "It's me, my guys, my crew,
but I'll make you wealthy. "But here's the deal. "Every time we have a
sit down," excuse me, "an argument with another
family, I've got to win. "Don't play politics, let's
not spread this around, "'cause as soon as we do
it'll get out of control "and we'll blow it." And he said, "Show me." And I did. And I never lost an argument. I made him wealthy and he repaid me by being loyal in that regard (coughs). - [Mark] How many years did this last? - Close to eight years from
'78, you know, right through '85 when I went to prison. - [Mark] And what kind of
lifestyle did that afforded you? - Well, I had my own jet plane, I had a Lear 25A, I had a Bell helicopter, I built a 8,000 square
foot house in Long Island, I had a house in Florida, I had a house in Marina Del Rey, California. So, I mean, I had all those little perks. But, you know, honestly
he plane and helicopter were really business, I mean, I use them you know, quite extensively. But, you know, I, look,
I enjoyed the fruits of having that kind of money. - [Mark] I'm sure you're
meeting all kinds of dignitaries and celebrities and
you're running in a circle that's very, very, very different, right? - Yeah. I mean, I had, you know,
associations with people that had you know, good celebrity
connections, so got involved with that to a great degree,
and, you know, life was good. Of course, on the other side I'm fighting the government
every day of my life. - [Mark] Yeah, so at some point during this heyday of the gas business that you were involved in, somebody got suspicious,
that you were, kind of, keeping more of the money than you should've been for yourself
and pulled you into a meeting. - Yeah. You know, when you're
making that kind of money, you know, people they're
watching you, you know, it's kind of a double-edged sword. And, you know, I was a younger guy, I had been appointed to captain, you know, they made me a caporegime, Persico go did, and I had a big crew, had all the Russians that were very loyal to me, making a tremendous amount of money. - [Mark] You were still young? - Yeah, I was in my 20s, late 20s. And, you know, there was a publication, I think it was "Newsday,"
I'm not positive, I don't remember now, but wrote a story that I was becoming powerful
enough to break away from the Colombos and start my own family. It was fiction, had no
truth to it whatsoever, but that was one reporter's take on it. So, you know, that gets
into people's heads, you know, people start to wonder. I think Persico got a
little bit, you know, suspicious of that, so started to send some people around to talk to my Russian connections
and so on and so forth. So, you know, I'd watch
myself at that point and I had no interest in, you
know, taking over families. As a matter of fact,
I'll be honest with you, I hated going down to the social clubs and being stuck in Brooklyn
when I can get on my plane and go to Florida,
California, and, you know, enjoy the good life. That's what I was into. You know, when you're a
captain in that family it's a lot of work 'cause
you've got guys under you that are constantly getting in trouble, constantly needing you,
you've got to sit down, you've gotta be arguing all the time. I mean, you know, I mean I enjoyed the life and I
was as much a part of it as anybody, but I also
liked the good life. So, I had things that
people used to say to me, I used to go out to California a lot here, and people used to tell
me, "How is it out there?" I didn't want anybody to follow me, so I'd say, "Oh, it's horrible. "Those people, it's terrible, "you don't ever want to go out there." 'Cause I didn't want anybody to come out. Meanwhile, I loved it, right. Same with Florida, you know, so I had to watch myself and, you know, I was on my guard and I knew it, so I was careful. - [Mark] Yeah, and then how
did it finally come to an end? - How did I come to an end? - [Mark] No, no the, I
mean you got into trouble with the government, right? - Well, I became a major
target of law enforcement. I mean, I was-- - [Mark] I would imagine
the government is like "What the hell is going on with (laughs)?" - Yeah.
- Something's not. - I mean, I had, I total it up, I had seven indictments, you know, that's almost a record, you
know, I mean in that life. Usually get one or two
and you're gone, you know, (chuckles), but I had seven, and two federal racketeering cases. - [Mark] Rudy Giuliani was after you. - Giuliani indicted me
on a big case in '84 I was probably the first major mob guy he indicted under the RICO statute and I was lead defendant,
I had 15 co-defendants and I was on trial for several months. If I lose that case, I'm gone, you know I would have been away for 50, 100 years. - [Mark] At that point they
were putting guys away probably. - You know, I'm watching
these guys going to trial getting convicted and
getting 100 years, 200 years. I said, "Man, I'm the youngest
out of all of these guys "they're going to give me 500
years if I lose this case." So, you know, I prepared day and night for the Giuliani case. - [Mark] How much money
did you spend on lawyers? - In all total, probably
about $2.5 million, you know, between all the cases,
you know, I took care of some of my co-defendants
and investigators, you know, then forget the hours that I lost, just, you know, preparing. But yeah, I spent a lot of
money, but it was worth it. I mean, I won the case, I was acquitted. So got my freedom. At least at that point. - [Mark] You escaped the
government several times, right? - Yeah, I beat them five times. I went to trial three times, fourth time was dismissed and
Giuliani, I was acquitted. I got, I had a pretty good string. - [Mark] Now you were also involved in sports gambling as well, is that right? - Well, you know, if you're in that life you're into gambling in some way. Now I didn't have that habit. I used to gamble a little bit on sports, I played the numbers every day, 5, 27, my birthday, won a few times. But we had bookmakers that answered to me and they were gambling, I mean, athletes were
gambling with them, you know, all the time, all the major sports teams, a lot of the college kids,
you know, just happening. - [Mark] Michael Jordan
was apparently involved in some mess with the--. - Well, look, it was on the street, and everybody knew who Michael was, I only use the word degenerate
in terms of his gambling not in terms of him personally,
but he was, he was hard. It's still today. I mean, everybody now
he's not shy about it. Yeah, but he was gambling
with bookmakers, you know, we were aware of it. - [Mark] So what happens after, you actually did do
some prison time, right? - Yeah, what happened after
I beat the Giuliani case, the East that was in the
Southern District of New York and then the Eastern District of New York was preparing this whole
gasoline tax RICO case on me. It was kind of a laundry list of things they indicted me for,
but you know, gasoline was one of them. And the guy that introduced
me, Larry Iorizzo to the business, and then we
created the scheme together, he turned informant. So he was their principal
witness against me. However, he testified against
me in the Giuliani case and we destroyed hin on
the stand, destroyed him. So the government was
leery about him coming in on the second case, which
gave me some leverage when I finally negotiated a plea there. - [Mark] So a plea got you how many years? - I took a plea eventually
to a 10 year prison sentence. I had a $15 million in
forfeitures and restitution. And I gave up the plane,
the helicopter the whole bit and went off to do my time. But you got to understand at
that time, when I got 10 years I negotiated it for
months, people were saying, "Hey, it's a deal of the century." - [Mark] You got off easy. - Yeah, they would telling me, "Don't even take your shoes off, "you'll be home before
you know it, really." But that's how bad it was back then. So I was very fortunate. - [Mark] No, I find it very
interesting that you have navigated your time with
the mob and your life today with, I think it's, people have many different
types of intelligence, but there's a wisdom in knowing how to play a certain
situation or a certain person you're interacting with
to come out on top, to come out unscathed, and compared to, like on that list of "Fortune the 50 Mob Bosses" (laughs) I think you're the
only one who's still alive or still not in prison? - Well, no, no, I know
48 of them are dead. I don't know about the 49th. I heard he's in his '70s,
he might've passed away. I know he was doing a long prison stretch, I don't know where he is. So yeah, I mean, I'm the guy
that's walking around free. I mean, it's, you know, look, I always say that list was kind of silly. They didn't ask for our
tax returns, you know, they'd make a list like that. Sold a lot of magazines. But you know, it's not silly
even to myself is to think that over the last 33 years,
I survived all of these guys. I mean, it makes me realize how fortunate and blessed I am, you know, to know that. This whole thing, you know,
it was all in negotiation, life is a negotiation. And when it came to this next case that they were after me on, I knew I had a shot when we
defeated their major witness in the Giuliani case,
they were devastated. And so I told my lawyer, "Look, I can't keep fighting these people "eventually they're gonna win, "and when they do win,
I'm going away forever." I said, "I've got to
try to cut my losses." So in taking that plea, what I really was concerned about, look, I wasn't afraid to do the jail time. I was visiting my father my whole life, I knew at some point
I'd do some prison time, I had 17 or 18 arrests up to that point. but I said, "I've got to cut my losses." And what was more important
to me than anything else was getting immunity
from any other crimes. So I knew if I wrapped
everything up in that plea deal, I did a few, you know, years inside, I'd come out and have a clean slate. And they gave me immunity
for everything except murder, you know, at that time unless I became a cooperating witness then they would have given
me immunity for murder, but I wasn't interested in that. So that was the only thing
I had to be concerned about, and I wasn't really concerned about it. And so it was really a
negotiation to preserve the rest of my life and get
these people off my back. That's what it was all about. - [Mark] Did you have
an eye on getting away from a mob life at that point? - I did, you know, a couple of things came into to the question for me, but I saw that that life
was in a lot of trouble. I mean, Giuliani, I have to
give them credit or blame whatever way you look at it, you know, for really utilizing the RICO Act. And up until I'd point, you know, guys weren't becoming as
informants much as they were, but nobody wanted to
face that kind of time. And I saw the life starting
to fall apart because of that, the government had too many weapons. They had the RICO Act, they
had the Bail Reform act, the had the Sentencing Reform Act. Guys would turning snitch left and right. - [Mark] Better surveillance. - What's that? - [Mark] Better surveillance. - Yeah, better surveillance. And we didn't keep up with the times, and so I said, "This life is in trouble. "If you're gonna stay
here, and I'm a young guy, "for me to be arrogant enough to think "that over the course of my lifetime, "these guys wouldn't catch me in something "and put me away forever would have been arrogant on my part." - [Mark] Yeah, so you knew something was gonna be happening. 10 years is nothing compared-- - 10 years was, I did eight on the 10, but it was, you know, it was a blessing. - [Mark] If you look at
everyone else around you, you got off easier than anybody
in the history of anyone. - Absolutely, and didn't have
to put anybody in prison. Didn't go into witness protection program, none of that, which I
wasn't interested in. Everybody said it was unheard of, it's never been done before. I mean, I don't do research on it, but I don't know of anybody
else that's been that fortunate, Lets' put it that way.
- What was the reaction to other mobsters at the time, when you were kind of leaving? - Well, they didn't know it. I mean, I didn't make an announcement. - [Mark] But at some point you-- - Well, I'll tell you what happened. When I went into prison,
I was in there for a bit, and the associate warden
at Terminal Island, that's where I was incarcerated, tells me, "You know, 'Life Magazine's'
doing this huge story on you," they had done a huge story on
my dad several years earlier, it was actually the biggest story ever, as far as I know in "Life
Magazine" about my dad. It was like 29 pages with
photos and everything else. So he said they're doing, kind of, an anniversary edition on you, and he said, "The reporter
said if you speak to them, "it'll be a better story." So me always trying to negotiate stuff, I said, "All right, maybe
I get the government "off my back a little
bit, you know, whatever, "get out of here, get some peace." So I sit down with him
and I said, you know I tell them typical mob stuff. "There is no mob, "I don't know what you're talking about. "I married this young girl,
she's from California, "I moved out. "I liked the sunny weather." I gave him all that stuff. And that was it. I think a couple of weeks later the warden calls me back to the office and he says, "Franzese, do you have a death wish? I said, "What are you talking about?" He shows me the article. It was a big, double
picture, a big article, and across the top, "Quitting the Mafia," and there's a big picture of me. And I'm in jail with
several other mob guys. This guy had me doing
everything but testifying. - [Mark] Nobody leaves the mob. - No.
- Not that way (laughs). - No. And then right after that, you know, I get a visit from the government. FBI tells me, "Hey,
words all over the street "from our informants,
'You're a dead man, anyway,' cooperate with us, we'll
put you in a program. And so this thing started
like accidentally, you know, I didn't say I was
testifying against anybody but then they put word out on the street that I was gonna testify. They put my name on the witness list of other trials that were going up. So people were seeing that on the discovery, was like
a wave that I couldn't stop. But I did have no intention of going back, so messages came through
to me, "What's up?" I said, "Look, I'm not gonna hurt anybody, "but I'm done>" Well, that infuriated the wrong
people, including my father. So, I mean, I had a lot of
trouble, a lot of trouble. - [Mark] Yeah, your dad
actually spoke against you. - You know, I'd like to clarify that. I mean, obviously the contract on my life, Persico, very upset when
he heard this and I'm done, plus they thought I was gonna testify, so, you know, I was told straight out my father went along with the contract. And, you know, knowing
my dad, I believed it. I don't think my dad would
have pulled the trigger on me, but he let it go. - [Mark] But I think it's a testament to your wisdom to navigate negative things like that, your own father kind of standing against you and yet using it, and finding
some way to turn that into something positive. And your relationship with
your dad is still alive? - [Michael] Yes. - [Mark] Just got out of
prison recently, right? - [Michael] My dad's still
alive, he's 102 years old. - [Mark[ 102. - [Michael] He was
released at the age of 100. He was the oldest inmate in the system. - [Mark] I'm sure your
relationship with him is great. - [Michael] It's, you know, it's good. You know, we kind of see
things a little bit differently at this point, you know, but
the relationship is good. I love my dad. He loves me. You know, there's a lot of talk out there and all this stuff. I never did anything to hurt my dad. I only tried to help him my whole life. I'm the guy that got him
out of prison, you know, and all these times. But, you know, people
talk and they like to say certain things and
whatever, but my dad and I are close and, you know,
I love him, he loves me. - [Mark] That's great. And he was a big influence
in your, who you are, right? - [Michael] My dad was a
tremendous influence on me. He taught me, you know,
all the right things when I was a kid growing up, I believe I still carry that with me. He helped me navigate through that life, taught me to be a good listener, you know, to be be careful before
I speak out of turn, and things that you need
to know in that life that are very important. "Cause guys that shoot off their mouth and wanted to be tough
guys, they're all gone. You don't keep somebody that around when you got to worry about
somebody doing to you, you let them go, you
know, get rid of them, and that's what happened. I saw that happened
many times in that life. - [Mark] Tell me about
some of the personalities. I'm sure you came across (chuckles) quite a few real characters. Gotti, for example. - Yeah, you know, I was
friendly with John, you know, we weren't best of friends, had different crews and all of that. I had my run-ins with him with Gotti. Socially, he was great, I used to meet him in
some clubs, you know, by chance or on purpose, we'd
have a drink and have fun, he was great. He was always had to be like
the center of attention. He was the magnet, everybody,
'cause the way he dressed, the way he carried himself. But, was a lot of fun. Business, very tough, very, very tough 'cause, you know, he had the attitude "I'm John Gotti and
nobody's gonna beat me." And so when you in a deal with him whether it be purposely or by chance you had to know how to
navigate your way through. so he thinks he got what he wanted but actually you get what you want. And I appreciate, 'cause
John doesn't know it, but he taught me that just in
my having to deal with him, you know, and getting my way at the end. - [Mark] Yeah, well, I
mean, you can be headstrong or you can be wise and you
know, one gets you further. - You get the credit, I'll take the money. It's that way. - [Mark] Who else, what other mob figures were particularly
interesting to deal with? - Well, you know, I enjoyed Tony Salerno, "Fat Tony" Salerno was the
boss of the Genovese family. He was a character, you know, right out of central
casting, but a good guy, I liked him. I had a couple of, you know, meetings with him and
enjoyed him very much. In the gas business, especially, you know, he knew I was making money. He asked me for a couple of things and I was able to help him. Paul Castellano I met under
not great circumstances. My first real run-in where the guy was him and it didn't, you know, he
wasn't one of my favorite guys, let's put it that way. You know, Persico, obviously I knew. I mean, I knew a lot of guys, I mean, I got around, you know, I knew the Chin, you know,
fairly well, Chin Gigante. He really was the most powerful guy on the street at that point
in time, he really was. I mean, you know, he
did his thing, you know, walking up and down Houston
Street, in the bathroom and all of that. But very interesting, he didn't care who you
were, he didn't care, you could be the boss of another family, he didn't care. If he didn't wanna meet you
or talk to you he wouldn't. And the fact that he
met with me, you know, on a few occasions and
treated me that way was nice. He respected my father a lot too. My father was away, but he respected him. So I met, you know, I met the good guys the top guys at the time and
I met a lot of the other guys you know, because you're in a gas business everybody wanted a piece of it, everybody. So I was constantly sitting down and keeping people away and arguing. It was a lot of work,
but it was profitable, so you did the work. - Right. And Giuliani, did
you have a lot of interactions with Rudy Giuliani? - No, not a lot, but you
know, day of my arraignment he told me if he convicted me,
he's gonna give me 100 years, double what my father got. And I said, "Hey, bring it on Rudy. "Beat you already four times,
let's go for round five." And fortunately I beat him. But, you know, Rudy said some nice things about me when it was out on
the street that, you know, I was transforming my life
and I was not going back. And everybody was saying, "Franzese is full of it,"
on law enforcement side. "He'll never give this up. "He's too much a part of it. "It's another scam he's pulling." And Giuliani said, "You know what? "Michael's a fairly intelligent guy "and he knows his life is in trouble, "and I think he might be
sincere in what he's saying." He made that comment. So, it was nice. - [Mark] It's interesting. It takes intelligence to
recognize intelligence, sometimes. - Well, look, like I said, and you wanna give him the credit or
the blame, but, you know, he did a lot as far as
hurting my former life. And I will say this, I think
he was a terrific mayor. I'll tell you a story. You know, I had been, I did my five years, I was out 13 months, violated my parole, so they picked me up and
they're bringing me back to New York, I was out in California because I had to go in front of the judge, the marshals were
transporting me and I said, "Look, what time we gotta be at court?" He said like two o'clock. It was early in the morning,
we got off the plane. I said, "Well, do me a favor. "I haven't been here for a while. "Let's drive around Manhattan,
I wanna see what's going on." I said, "That and I want Dunkin' Donuts. "I haven't had that in a while too." So the marshals were good guys. So we started driving
around, we go to Manhattan and I was shocked to see Times Square. I grew up, Time Square was
a pit, it was horrible. - [Mark] You wouldn't walk there. - No, and Giuliani totally transformed it. So, you know, he did a lot
of good things as mayor, and, of course, 9/11, he
gets, you know, both sides, but I think he did a good job. So give him credit. - [Mark] So what are the qualities that a person needs to exist in that life? I mean, there's loyalty,
there's integrity and all that, but it seems like very
often it's the case where it's were deceit and treachery
come into the picture. - You know, it's a very treacherous life. And the reason I say that because look, I spent a lot of time
there, over 20 years. I mean, you know, I seen guys
die for the wrong reasons. Jealousy comes into effect. There's a lot of politics. Money is everything, money
and powers is everything in that life, and you've got to know how
to really navigate both. And if you're make good money and you have power, you've gotta know, you've gotta be careful. You don't wanna offend the wrong people, I mean, look, the Gotti, Castellano thing was a perfect example. In our family, "Little
Vic" Orena, you know, he went out against Persico, he had a big war at that time. So you've gotta be very careful in there. You've gotta be careful,
you know, just to do the right thing with the right people, or to be on your guard all the time. And, you know, again, I saw a lot of people die for the wrong reason. One of the horrors in that life, you make a mistake, your best friend walks you into a room, you don't walk out again. And unfortunately I've witnessed that. I had somebody very close to
me that I believe was killed for the wrong reasons, more to give me a message
than to anything else. And that was tough for me to get over. I mean, it really was 'cause things, look, you know, I'm not
throwing bouquets in myself and I'm no angel by any
means, but, you know I saw two types of guys in that life. There were guys there that I
would call them stone killers, they enjoyed it. "Hey, give me the
contract, "I'm ready to go, "I love it, and I'll do it." And they did it, they did their job. You know, for me, when I was
asked to order to do something it made me uncomfortable. And don't get me wrong, I
never let anybody see that, and, you know, I did what I
had to do and, and did it. And in my case it was kinda
like stepping outside of myself, doing what I had to do
and getting right back because I wasn't gonna
let anybody talk about me, and I was gonna make sure I
did what I was told to do, follow the orders. But I think there really
was those two type of guys, those two types of personalities. And I'll tell you this, the guys that were ready
to kill, they don't last. They don't last because people say, "I'm not gonna worry about this guy, "he's too quick with the trigger." You know, one thing that I
learned, if you're a captain in that family, and
wanna clear this up too, murder was taken very
seriously in that life, we weren't random killers. We didn't do drive-by shootings. We weren't allowed to do that stuff. We didn't do it. Any murder in that life had
to be sanctioned by the boss. That was it, it had to be
sanctioned by the boss. There was discussion about it, some people were for it,
some people were against it, and then a ruling was made. And, you know, I always
thought about this, I said, "Look, this life was like a wheel, "it turns around, you know. "One day if I'm sitting there,
you know, giving a vote, "deciding the fate of
somebody, I wannabe hesitant. "I'm not gonna be the one to
say right away, 'Let's do this. "'or let's do that, "'or, you know, put a
death warrant on this guy,' "because it might be me
sitting there one day. "I mean, it might be me that
they're deciding upon one day, "and I wanna be known
to be the guy that said, "'Let's really discuss this. "'Let's wait. "'Let's see.'" And, you know, I think in
the end that's served me well because I had an experience
where I was brought into a room one night, I didn't know if I was gonna walk out, an experience that prepared
me for walking away later on because, honestly, I learned
through that experience that I could face death. - [Mark] "Cause they were suspicious that you were up to--
- Yeah. I mean, I was called into a room under some very bad circumstances. And the way the setup was-- - [Mark] What was a story? You know, look making a lot
of money in the gas business, you know, and word was getting out, and, like I said, my boss was going after finding some people, seeing if
I was turning in enough money and all this kind of stuff. I'm turning in millions, you know. Story came out that I was making billions. My attitude would have
been, "Well, so what. "He's taken all the risks. "He's doing this. "He's making me wealthy. "What do I care?" But it's not like that with everybody. So, I think, you know, when I look at it they wanted to put a scare into me. Maybe, maybe it was serious
more than I thought afterwards. I don't know. - [Mark] But you know, from experience walking
into a room like that. - Oh, yeah. Let me tell you something. It was about a 30 yard walk
from the car that I get out of to the basement of an apartment, a room, it was a private house, but we had to go into the
basement down the steps. And it was late at night, it was a summer night, I can tell you this. The way it lined up, I said, "I'm dead. "I'm not walking out of here." When I walked down that path,
as I think about it now, I can hear the crickets chirping and I can almost smell the
night air, the flowers, my senses got so acute at that point. And, you know, I've said this
before and people said to me, "Why didn't you cut and run?" And I said, "I don't know." I mean, it was just robotic. I said, "Hey, if this is it, this is it." But I will tell you
this, you know, my heart was beating out of my chest, and when that door opened, I don't know how I didn't just cave in. 'Cause I thought, you
know, I know the set-up, guy stand up, boom, you're
done, it's over with. But it taught me later on
that I could face death. So when I did walk away and I knew that I'd have that trouble, I said, "Hey, you know what? "They're not gonna walk me into a room. "They're gonna have to come and get me." And I knew what to do to
change my lifestyle around, so I didn't make it easy for anybody 'cause there was, you
know, a couple of attempts, I mean, I know that for a fact. - [Mark] After you left? - Yeah, oh yeah.
- Oh, really? - There was a crew that
was sent out to California and the FBI intercepted it, and they actually came to
my house and they said, "If you don't leave, you're
gonna be dead by Sunday. "That's the deal." 'Cause, fortunately, at
that time they had a lot of informants on the street. And my wife was a wreck,
they told her too, and I got mad at them and they said, "Well, we wanted to make
sure that you left." Whether they like it or not, if you have a death threat on you they're obligated to come and tell you. So we had to pick up and move and leave for a couple of days, until I knew it was over with. so I had a couple of calls like that. - [Mark] But when you
come back to your house, (chuckles) you're being
careful to walk the dog. - Well, yeah, well, you know you don't create patterns in your life. You don't walk your dog at the same time. You don't go to the same restaurant. You don't hang out in
places where you know other guys hang out, wanna be a hero. So, you know, I was very disciplined because I knew I had to be. But, you know, it was tough. And like I said, a lot
of treachery in that life that you've gotta watch. And, you know, look, I'm
as honest as I can be about the life. And I've told people this,
that life is an evil lifestyle just like the gang life,
you know, it's evil. Now, I'm not calling the guy's evil, I was one of them. I just happened to be a very
fortunate, very blessed, but the lifestyle is
evil because I don't know any family of any member of that life, and this includes gangbangers
that I went to prison with, that hasn't been totally devastated. I mean, devastated, including my own, and not my wife and kids, but my mother, father, brothers, sisters, the family's destroyed. I don't even know how I came
out of there with a, you know, at least somewhat sane. People questioned that but (chuckles). - [Mark] Your story's incredible. You survived and thrived. - So any lifestyle that
does that to families has to be evil, and
that's the bottom line. I mean, you've got to stay away from that. That's what I tell these gangbangers, "You guys are out of your mind." - [Mark] And were these kind
of thoughts in your head, what helped you kind of change your ways and decide to leave? Or were there other
factors in your life also?. - Leaving that life was one of the, if not the most difficult
decision I ever made, because look I took the
oath very seriously, I'm my father's son, I love my dad. I would go to sleep at
night, leaving the the life, wake up, going back in. I mean, I was so torn. It was so difficult emotionally for me 'cause I didn't wanna be known as a guy that betrayed an oath,
whether it was right or wrong. 'Cause look, I had a very
idealistic view of that life, when I came in, I was gung ho, I'm gonna be part of
something my father's part of, there's brotherhood among men. It was exhilarating, and I
took it extremely seriously. So leaving that life was
very, very difficult. It really was. I mean, sometimes, you
know, even at a moment, I mean, I feel it today,
every once in a while. - [Mark ] But the government's
becoming more effective played a part in all this as well. - You've gotta be out of your
mind to me to be in that life. You're going to jail or you going down, one way or the other at one point in time. Especially, it was too late for me, I became too high profile. Once you got that bullseye on your back you've got that target,
they'll never let you go. They've got all the time, all
the money, all the resources, so they're gonna get you. And when they do get you,
it's over, that's it. - [Mark] What do you enjoy
most about your life now, that's treasury free? (laughs) Your new life is what? You have a wife, you have kids, you have-- - I've got a, you know,
a wife that I'm very much in love with 34 years.
- You live in California. - Yeah we live out in Southern Cal. I've got seven great kids, you know, three from my first marriage, but they all love each
other, which is great. Look, I live a good lifestyle. I mean, you know, I'm
speaking all over the world having a positive impact on people, being a source of encouragement and hope, which is extremely gratifying. I really learned in my
life, it really is better to give than receive. You get a better feeling
out of it, you know, and what else can you give me, I've gotten everything
just about in my life. It motivates me, keeps me going. I'm very fortunate. I am a person of faith. Look, my faith has played a major role because without God in my life I don't think I'd be sitting here now. I mean, I know that for a fact, so, you know, and things
I've had my challenges and my struggles, don't get me wrong. I didn't get a lobotomy when
I became a person of faith, I still have tendencies
where I could jump back in mob life for a
second, but I try not to. And I've got the right people around me keeping me accountable. So, you know, it's all working out. - [Mark] Excellent, what
a great, great story. - Thank you. - Michael, thank you
very much for sharing it. - Appreciate it, thank you. - [Mark] Thank you.
