Talking with an Incel about Starting a Relationship

and what am i calling you by the way what do you go by uh you can call me pull yeah Paul okay yeah okay so let's get started in just a second okay and Paul where where are you joining us from I'm currently in London UK okay cool yeah feeling nervous yeah so I might as was lined up as maybe the backup last week so I understood that I might be getting on the show last week but since I didn't I had the whole week to sort of like ponder it and be anxious about it yeah because obviously like airing your dirty laundry in front of a live audience as well as a nobody is is actually quite a daunting thing but um I'm super excited to be on I'm a fan of the show yes kind of weird to be on this side of the screen you know are we a show is that what we are I kind of feel like maybe that's just how I rationalize it to make it seem less the one thing I don't know okay no I mean I think it's a good characterization it's just I didn't realize it so Paul you're joining us from the UK right I think we're we're alive yay okay so our hypetrain did something can you explain to me what a hype train is me yeah like do you know what that is I got a line from from I mean the meme is it's a scam train so all I know is this twitches latest scam to draw more money other people who are foolish enough to surrender it I guess but okay I are constantly I've ever gotten on one myself okay so Paul so help us understand a little bit so for those of you who saw an ad I apologize but Paul was just filling us in a little bit about how daunting it is to share your dirty laundry over the Internet in front of thousands of people and I completely agree with you man it sounds daunting so tell us help help me understand a little bit about what we're talking about today and how we can be right so I mean when I submitted the application I just put down in cell is a bit of an attention-grabber I don't know like I don't really identify with that term the raw definition of it applies right so it stands for involuntary celibate which isn't just another way of saying basically you can't get a girlfriend right and that's as far as that goes it's okay it's a it's a loaded term if you look it up it's all kinds of nonsense or so you like to be an insult you also have to be a misogynist you also have to be part of a conspiracy so I I leave all that I'm not a so she do okay and and so you say that you kind of don't you do identify with being in and celery you don't identify with being no I actually don't okay it seems I don't even really know like the full definition but like sorry the raw definition applies but if you you I guess to be officially a member of whatever that's all about you have to be a whole bunch of other things which I hope don't apply because they sound terrible like what like a misogynist what I mean so I guess it's thought that in cells were a product of their own flaws which is that you know well they of course they can't be attracted to something they hate right so they hate women but also I guess they also want to be with them I don't know okay um I don't think that's the case I'm I hope it's not my case I'm sure you're sure if you go down a line a questioning little reveal it one way or another but I don't think that applies to me because okay some there's some you know ladies I like and some I don't and isn't it it's not because they're female or or not it's just based on something else I'm confused what's based on something else I mean whether or not I like someone isn't based on their gender is what I'm trying to say got it okay so what do you identify with so what what are we talking about if we're not talking about the whole complex of what it means to be an insult fine what are we talking about I guess we I guess we're just talking about like how is it that I have failed I'm like I'm 35 in a couple of weeks and I've never had a girlfriend like how is it that I'm in this situation and how is it that I can't seem to get out of it sure so I think that sounds applicable to twitch like yes so so I feel a little bit it's weird that I'm I was the one who's picked I feel like this probably a lot of people in chat who envy the position I'm in they would like to be here instead but I'm hoping the AoE healing thing is actually gonna be relevant to more than just me right I hope so too because it looks like we're not gonna be healing in cells today because you're not in itself so we're gonna be young people okay yeah so I I just got to say we got it we got it I think this is gonna be really hopefully helpful for you and if you are just if you if you identify as a full-blown insel with all of the toxicity and hatred that I know that is perceived as I love to talk to you if you're watching on stream is this something you can help with oh cuz it's nothing to do with being a healthy gamer right I don't even know if this is like is this something you specialize in or like do you really is what something that I specialize in not having a friend or or feeling itself you don't have to be these things just as I specialize I mean you know how to approach this topic which one is being a good because it's an insular or having trouble finding a girlfriend the laughter the one that applies in my case yeah so am I an expert in that no okay so so this may surprise people I'm not an expert in pretty much any anything that I'm not an expert in any person that comes on stream right so my expert in the person but obviously you you deal with eggs X in your day job on a regular basis you must be pretty good at dealing with the kinds of issues they have and obviously you purport to be about being healthy gamer so you must be pretty decent at dealing with with gamers but so this this seems like the sideline to that yeah so um so apologies if this gets kind of academic but I think it's kind of a good discussion AB so you said I work with execs so I must be good at the issues that they have that I actually disagree with so I think the biggest thing that makes me effective is that I do not assume that a class of people has a class of issues right so like that's what's different like that's a big part of who I am and I think part of the reason that I help gamers is because I don't think that their game or issues like the whole problem around game or mental health is that the rest of the world treats them like they're a different person and so we say like oh you're suffering because you're a gamer it's a gamer issue and they kind of like marginalize and get keep a community my whole belief is that like there aren't executive issues there aren't gamer issues there are just people issues and each person is individual and each person is unique and I'm not like an expert in ADHD do I think I can help people with ADHD absolutely do I think I can help people who have trouble finding a girlfriend absolutely have I struggled and had a lot of shame and and just been terrible around women absolutely okay right so like all those things are true but I I think my whole point is that like you shouldn't think about yourself as a class of person because you're right so like if you think about it you have your own unique challenges and just because there's an AoE effect doesn't mean that someone who's watching you is going to learn from you like the AoE healing understand this very carefully okay the AoE healing happens because you see something happening you see something that you think applies to you and then you look within yourself and you go through it in here it's not that you learn it from out there you actually go through it in here and then you change does that make sense it makes sense logically I don't know if I can relate to it I can certainly honor but I think if the short answer that you're at like short question that you're asking is do I think I can help you absolutely sorry sometimes you guys have to remember that I'm an academic and if you ask me a simple question I'm gonna give you a really long answer that you didn't ask for it so I apologize but that academic distinct I mean I think it's important understand reasons my anxiety a little because I know we don't have a lot of time sure why don't we have a lot of time well I mean there's you've got a like maximum a couple hours and then you have to do something else right yeah yeah I mean a couple hours no time well to do what I mean it's me sure I mean like part of me like because because well you know I watch a show very regularly and a lot of a lot of time like these pearls of wisdom sometimes even like profound pearls of wisdom they almost seem counterintuitive out of context come out of your mouth and they're they're amazing that's exciting to watch and it's interesting to learn from and I want something like that for me that I can pin up on my wall and if as long as I remember it every day I'll never be an N so again you know that's a lot to put on you it's probably impossible but that battery you ready for the first you ready for the first pearl is ready the how is it that you already got one I think well I mean because you gave it to me buddy so just thinking think about the way that you're approaching your problem right you're you're thinking that some like I'm gonna say something magical like so here's the thing you go by Paul right in your mind there's the Paul before and there is the Paul after no no before before and after was after me for and after the wisdom right now that you're gonna learn something here today that you can stick on your wall and then your life is gonna be different that's what I'm hearing from you I mean that would be nice but I don't know if that means I'm two different people I think to absorb whatever wisdom there is is something that is not instantaneous but I completely agree good so let's just let's just look at that right because I wonder if I'm with you and I think you're us you're clearly a very smart guy I think you're clearly a very logical guy and when I repeat back to you what I hear you start to poke holes in it which is very good but also you're the one who gave me the image of getting a pearl of wisdom putting it up on your wall and then like that's like clearly a before/after moment right does that make sense like that image is like before it's on the wall Paul's life is a particular way and if I give you the pearl of wisdom if it happens and you are transformed I mean I would be super wouldn't it I don't actually believe it that's a very feasible thing but I completely agree and just because you don't believe it's feasible doesn't mean that you don't want it or you don't fantasize about it it doesn't mean that targets high you know set lofty goals okay sure yeah okay so let's just put a pin in that for a second so help me understand a little bit about so your corner quote problem is that it would you call it a problem is that you haven't been able to find a girlfriend sure that seems like a problem you don't seem to be identifying with it uh what makes you say that Oh or just your response mistake on my part so would you say that that that's your problem yeah I think so okay so help me understand of hard to nail down but yeah it if you could go over the details and a high level that is the problem yes okay so tell me about the details come on you said if you gloss over the details then yes so that implies that there's something a little bit more complicated to your situation that involves the details so let's talk about the details yeah I don't already know where to start with that though okay so tell me to pause for a second okay okay can you just tell me a little bit about where you grew up sure like from from like what we're starting when not like where did you grow up well I grew up in a few places after I moved around a lot yeah I moved around a lot because of my dad's job and he's the provider so we moved wherever it if his job is moving we're moving okay it's a little bit of a fragmented kind of so that mostly happened and like in the primary school years which is I don't know what you call that America but like the first school you go to yeah sure so from like the first time we moved as when I was five and then the next two years seven and then again it went online so you sort of like you develop a few friendships but then you have to let them go and start again on us and I've quite you know every two years it's pretty regular basis about eight Wow what kind of work was he doing um he was a nuclear safety officer or something interesting yeah I don't know the details but so worked in a nuclear power plant it sounds like it was hard to kind of like reset in terms of friends and stuff like that I think you grow some kind of detachment right you sort of like get this idea that well friends a temporary I'm kind of worried that that is actually like something that I subconsciously learned from from that but also I was never really that good with people anyway it just made the problem worse like whenever like yeah please I just had this memory like from when I was in year 3 or whatever when you're 8 years old it's pretty early on and I had like a group project and I didn't I think I think my mother even got called in like the some time later the teacher was had a concern about my development like I I I preferred I didn't want to do the group project with other people I just I had my own ideas and I guess I didn't want to like convince them to do what I wanted to do it would be much easier if I just took all the materials and built a thing myself whatever we were doing no I'd rather do it might do it by myself which caused some some concern I guess I'm not even sure if I'm remembering this accurately at all because it's so long ago but I I guess I have that memory so I must journal true so it sounds like you you know it was troublesome to deal with other people and it was actually easier to just live on your own and that's that's what I do like in my idle life last since that since I left home I I live very much alone yeah so what do you think about that I think it suits me I completely agree then so then the question is sort of like well is it strange that I said that no because you this is it's almost it's almost like a meme your personal mean you you always you always say that so would you like to understand why I agree please yeah so like for you just said right so like you said that in the when you were 8 years old when your personality was beginning to develop and you were starting to become the person that you are it just suited you to work on your own like you just rather prefer like you were more comfortable yeah like it's not a stretch to then for like you to 30 seconds later say it just suits me to be on my own oh it's like yeah and like you just told us well of course of course I mean that that much is obvious but we just jumped from me being like eight to me being 35 and they missed out everything in the middle and I don't know they does it be even matter maybe not I guess well as that doesn't pearl of wisdom number two so just think about that for a second fall does everything in the middle matter well if it doesn't they you know dig into it right well just go just get straight to the conclusion well yeah I mean so I think this is an important point to make right so we're gonna dig into it absolutely to see if there's a pattern that emerges but I think my point is that like the people that we are are formed in the past right like that's kind of a no-brainer right yeah this is a recurring theme for sure from the other people you've seen very good so what's the theme well the theme is that how you're nurtured early on someone's like the butterfly effect it sort of echoes stronger and stronger throughout the rest of your life beautifully sad Pro acquisitive number three so this is this is gonna be great so like you know I was a little bit concerned that I have to give you pearls of wisdom but it seems like we've swapped you I actually surprised myself a little bit with that one but yeah yeah what was surprising about that I thought I'd be too nervous to come out with anything profound in this session to be honest that usually huh so I think that's the first letter on the thing that you put on your wall right so that's you actually understanding you're doing it already my friend but but would you hold on so these pros are just just like minor revelations of almost things of the like kind of obviously I kind of already know and putting them on my wall isn't gonna even be like one step towards fixing my problem these these are not really okay Lisa don't I mean you're kind of like smirking like gosh you know they are so I'm not convinced of that okay so I want to ask twitch chat' question twitch chat and I can mute you if you want to because I'm going to ask him about you do you want to hear it or do you want to I'm just curious if they're able to receive so twitch chat is he's squirrelly what is this Corley is he like dodgy like resisting dodging you guys see that is that clear to you well what am i dodging he's slippery you're slippery Oh does that make sense in what way so so what I mean by that is like so here's the thing you come so just notice your behavior okay you're doing good by the way do you feel nervous yeah probably yeah sorry that's why I wanted was thinking about meeting you but I just I was a little bit curious about whether other people were able to see what I was picking up from you so I get the sense that you're concerned that you can't be helped well that was that was an initial concern but you already you already told me that you think I can absolutely right so does that go away once I tell you I think you can yeah I think it does oh I have a lot of know what I mean you know doctor take the wheel I actually quite happy to let the rings go and you just you can drive this thing I don't okay so yeah that's what we're gonna do so I think the first thing is that that probably over time you've started to think and I'm detecting from you that there's a part of you that feels like it's it's gonna be hard to help you or maybe that can't be helped well I mean that's based on so I I briefly saw a guy a CBT guy uh-huh charged me it was charging what I consider quite a lot of money for his services and and this was like six years ago or so and he sort of laughed at me at one point when he yeah yeah that's my reaction to when he got the idea that maybe I would only date a virgin and I'm oh I don't know where he got that idea from maybe it was even true back then I saw another case now but because I was a virgin like oh I want someone who's like on the same level kind of thing and he sort of laughed like from like like you're gonna find someone like that in London you know I think yeah I don't think so buddy kind of thing and so after the session for whatever reason you I didn't pay up front I don't remember what the arrangement was I think maybe you like pay at the start the next session for both or I don't know what the arranged mode but for some reason I hadn't actually paid for the session yet and he sent me packing with some homework and this is the other things like it's kind of like he'd already prepared the homework so before he'd even met me so it's like it seems like a very standardized course and I said to him look I got a concern like before I come and see you again I'm just like I'm not concerned I have a concern that maybe you you can't like do you believe you can help me because I mean I got kind of got some like Hinn's like FFT when he's like laughing I mean kind of thing like I have a doubt so I said to him can you can you if I'm gonna come back for more sessions can you at least tell me that from your point of view this is it like you really believe earnest in earnest that you can help me and his response was well actually actually actually may don't don't bother pay me I don't know I'm not gonna see you again um you can keep the money so yeah I have a doubt that I can be helped because I've I've already failed to get help a few times fail to get help no no no no my friend that's not what you failed to do it sounds like an expert thought that you were hopeless that's not failing to get help that's help telling you that you can't be helped does that make sense that's an expert telling you that I'm giving up on you yeah I don't know if I mean I don't if he's a charlatan or what but I mean he's is that how did you feel when he said that I don't remember his like five or six years ago I kind of and I was very depressed at that time I was depressed clinically depressed and I was taking I think so I'd tell a pram or something okay if you know if not exactly then it then shortly before after I don't remember the timeframe exactly so how I felt it probably actually made almost no difference to my mood because my moods already like rock bottom anyway okay at that time so good now Paul I'm really sorry that that happened to you that actually sounds incredibly shitty again it's water off a duck's back at the time - honestly what does that mean like I was like I would you told you didn't really have an effect of that I recall at the time yeah but just because it didn't have an effect then and also it was like the fourth so like before that okay so definitely I was depressed I remember that at the time I lived a better now so before that had already seen like three or four therapists but bad ones because I since I was clinically diagnosed you're entitled in the UK to free therapy so what happens then is you go to a center and they'll give you the trainees you know you know the ones that are will actually do it for free and they're terrible they don't they don't listen they don't take notes they don't like one of them I most I'm only saw for one session and I was like nah this isn't going to work out one of the mice office the full six though which is what you're entitled to at the end of the fifth session I said to her but there's one burning thing I keep on it I've wanted to say it's in session one which never got around to it but can you please remind me for session six and I kind of I was kind of saying it because I kind of had the feeling because there was no like continuity between any of the sessions so I was kind of saying it kind of is a bit of a [ __ ] test so for the sixth session I turn up and it's the session concludes and she hasn't even mentioned that the burning thing I wanted her to remind me to bring up and I mean all I can say about that really it's always just under underlines like how bad this this therapy was it was a complete waste of time but I guess I hope I'm such a cheapskate I would have bought some I guess I can't afford 500 an hour but you know I could have spent something and maybe got better I wasn't like my heart was like fully in it though I didn't I didn't fully believe that it was would do me any good either so that's another problem I'm a look I'm hearing you say a lot of different things Paul on the one hand I'm hearing you say that they did a shitty job and on the other hand ear I guess it was mutual we both wielded a [ __ ] off yeah so then you're also saying that right I'm also hearing that so this this thread so Paul this is gonna be a little bit tricky I'm trained in this most human beings are not to remember the sequence of a conversation so I'm gonna try to point out some things to you so this started when I asked you are you afraid that you can't be helped which in turn started because we had this weird conversation about are you an expert in this so like let's just stop and think about that right so you start the session by asking me are you an expert in this that's that starts that's not a neutral beginning that's a like a skeptical not skeptical is not the right word that's actually a beginning that comes from fear because there's a part of you that believes that I can't help you I believe in the possibility that you might not be able to so yeah so so Paul I think this is the other actually really cool thing is that sometimes when I reflect things back at you you actually look at them objectively but I think some of the statements that you make are not coming from objective places so you're actually like you would be very good at CBT because like I said as a patient or as a patient I would love to have you as a CPT measure because you actually CBT is about a therapist being a mirror for you in some people when I repeat things back they can't like they don't CBT is like helping you understand your thoughts and that and you actually your thoughts do change so the tricky thing about CBT is like your thoughts are malleable so when when I say you know I detect and I'm curious of twitchchat detects this to essentially despair despair about your situation and despair that whether you can be helped or not right and and then the interesting thing though is that when someone is in that despair like leaks out and it starts with do you think you can actually help that's the first opening that's the opening salvo to our session and and so then but then I say yes I I can and this is the magical thing is you say okay that means something to me for a lot of people if I tell them yes I can their despair is so rigid that they can't even like see past that but it sounds like you can so that's fantastic well I mean I yeah it's just I have a lot of love for you in the work that you do and I genuinely believe that if you're like one of the smartest guys I've ever known and if you say that you can help me that's good enough for me honestly okay good so I can't help you I believe that I've been wrong in the past but you know so maybe I'm the red buff I don't know yeah I think we're gonna have we don't have to vote on who's the raid boss right so it's like you can't help me if you can't help me I am that's we'll figure that out I guess okay so see there it is again like you see that like there's there's this there's a certain calcification durst and that was a joke but like in your mind like I think there's a part of you that wonders whether you're the rain boss like I'm the you're the one guy that dr. K can't help do that does that make sense that's exactly that's nothing so that comes from a sense that you cannot be helped does that make sense it possible yeah and that can everyone be helped with everything I don't know okay so don't get don't get philosophical on me so so we're talking about you like I don't [ __ ] know if everyone can be helped with everything I know nothing about that that's not what I do I don't help everyone with everything I try to do one person with one thing but you have a question no okay sir so then I asked you about you know do you feel like you can be helped and then you tell me these stories and what is the point of those stories like what are you have it enjoy the stories maybe not so much to therapy because I feel like if you just go in with with trainees who don't like really know what they're doing any kind of recipe for disaster but I guess I didn't know that before I tried it but anyway a specially the CBT guy and he's chart he I was like eighty critter time for him which seemed like a quite a lot of money to me at the time I kind of expected more out of that than I got how did you feel when he said don't worry about it mate I'm not gonna see you again how did you feel I told you that I was ready I don't either I don't remember or it was just neutral okay good to know and I also have a terrible emotional memory anyway I like remembering emotions isn't really something I'm good I believe that you did not notice or maybe even didn't have I I accept what you're saying that you did not notice or even a notice implies that it could have been happening eat I don't think you changed much or you didn't notice much of a change based on what he said but now expected it to even be asking me in the first place asking what if I'm asking him do it does he really believe he can help me I'm half expecting that he can't right so if you're yeses say that you can't is just firming what I have suspected anyway yes very good I'm not because I'm going to be devastated by that revelation yep and that's still going on here you see that like that dynamic is here so you have more faith in me which is fantastic but just because you have faith in me does not mean that your attitude has changed like so the faith in me is used to overcome your attitude and the reason you can overcome your attitude is because you have a lot of faith in me but that attitude that you cannot be helped runs pretty deep and is pretty strong yeah well I mean I've been on this earth for quite a few years and probably one of the oldest in cells around and I've tried a lot of things and none of them have worked so if we put away all the stuff that's related to maybe your area like therapy and all that stuff I mean there's plenty of other stuff that's more normal that I've tried like just hanging around in bars and clubs there's not a place I like to be but I tried it for a while at one point I I guess when I was depressed especially I was like well gee you're depressed and what are you depressed about what you're depressed because you can't go well why aren't you even doing the things that you know traditionally no people do like go to the ghost of social places and just hang out there I see what happens you haven't even tried it and you're like you're depressed but it doesn't make sense try it well if you got to lose at that point [ __ ] nothing because you're depressed so I did I didn't work out I can't tell you the long story short didn't work out tell me about what what happened I thought so I heard a little while I used to I just went to a bar and I'm teetotal but I drank anyway because it's what everyone else does and I didn't meet any girls but I met some guys eventually and they befriend I would say they befriended me around the other way around I'm not really like confident enough to like opens but they just decided to chat to me and we actually became friends kind of the they didn't seem to have a lot in common with me but we did anyway and I just hang out hung out with them and did the things they like to do which included like more of that but also going clubbing which is like much harder than just hanging out in a bar like I I hate everything about clubs just like everything about them but yeah but as we did all that for a little bit until I got until I got tight well actually eventually they moved so eventually they one of them went off to Australia and the other one somewhere else at around the same time and we when we split then but for a little while I tried I tried that and didn't it didn't appeal to me and it didn't work out for me but I was just I thought I'd give it a go yeah very good right so once again you're a smart guy you logically looked at your situation and you decided that you were going to try something and so it sounds like you that have you tried that a couple of different times or that was sort of the main time uh yeah so I just went I just went on that little binge it was like a few months of just going clubbing with them and drinking with them okay um did you meet any did you meet any girls during that time no so no I didn't although one of the guys was pretty good-looking and he got off with a few but for whatever reason his other friend didn't and he was almost at least to me so you know my sis is attractive and the him and me didn't okay how do you understand that like if his body was also it sounds like he's outgoing and enjoys clubbing and is attractive like why didn't he meet any girls over those few months let's talk about him for a second so what the other guy who didn't do any better than I did yeah why didn't he yeah I guess I never figure that out I mean why didn't you do well let's start there well I mean I'm overweight okay I'm balding I don't know if you'd know that I don't know how clearly it comes through on the web yeah but sure I think you've got just standard male pattern baldness that's right yeah yeah so like you have do you have reasons for your failure right I imagine that he must have too but it wasn't really apparent to me maybe it's just that he was overshadowed by his friend and there wasn't enough to go around okay so there's another option right which is that the duration of your experiment was not long enough to yield a result like if I go fishing and there's a very veteran Fisher know I should know I know what no no no so there was so so so to look at them there wasn't much to choose between them but actually the other guy definitely was a much much looser even if they drank an equal volumes and even if they were equally like how to call in that system he most definitely more outgoing yeah you step outside of your thought process and I want you to pay attention to an exchange that just happened you gave me a scenario right you gave me the scenario you gave me data and then I drew a conclusion from that data and then what did you do with the conclusion that I drew what exactly I saw you're kind of could so you said you said that you know I was it was kind of weird because he was about as good-looking and then we talked about okay why couldn't he find a girlfriend and you said I don't know and then I said okay why couldn't you find a girlfriend and you said because I'm overweight and then I suggested to you that perhaps there was like something about the duration of how long you looked which if he couldn't find a girlfriend maybe maybe there's like maybe it just takes longer than a couple of months of clubbing to find a girlfriend and then you came back and said what well I said but I know what I said but it's just because I read spontaneously remembered something that I forgot I thought I'm not disputing that you spontaneously remember that's not I'm not disputing that what did you say well I said that so that the guy who was doing well actually did have a differentiating factor which was that he was more outgoing absolutely so now so now we're gonna jump into something so this is a cognitive bias okay so like like this is how a cognitive bias operates you are doing something that's very subtle so most of the time what we want our mind to do is we have a particular opinion and the world gives us data and that data should change our opinion that's the reason that we collect information from the world right like if I walk outside like does that make sense like you want your experiences like the process of learning is you like have a particular belief and then the world tells you something and your your opinion about the world should change based on the experiments that you perform in the world right sure yeah yeah something very common happens with people we're instead of using the data to change their interpretation they use their interpretation to change the data well you you thing and they're really roundabout way that I'm just making it up it's not that you're making it up it's true but it's that your mind is doing this little slippery thing where when I present something to you that does not fit with your conclusion your mind scans your memory further and comes up with greater evidence to support your existing belief I mean I just remembered the other thing I don't know absolutely I'm not saying you didn't remember it you're the funny thing is you're right so now I'm gonna give you an example have you seen any of the videos about a hum car and woody do you know what those mean so those particular terms are not once a group okay group so so I'm gonna I'm gonna give you an example real quick okay because I know it seems freakin absurd but it's not irrational what you're doing is not irrational it's not stupid it's literally how our mind works okay so some so I'm gonna give you a scenario so let's say that this is a standard one I use so hopefully people will remember this one so let's say that I go into work one day and my boss yells at me for being late let's say I work in real estate okay I go in for work one day my boss who's the manager so I'm one of the people who goes around and like sells real estate my colleagues go around in sell real estate manager manages the office so he says hey I'll look you're late again you're always late like you got a you know you got to be like on time and stuff like that and so like how do you think I feel when he says that like he says in front of the whole office well if he's gonna do it that way you must feel a little bit mortified absolutely right something something happens where like when I feel mortified and humiliated sometimes my ego can activate and I can start thinking things like who is he to tell me right does that make sense like like I sell real estate like what difference does it make if I show up half an hour later at work or whatever like the important thing is that I meet my clients on time and I sell houses like I'm selling houses so like what does it matter like what time I show up he's just some office manager he's not actually out there selling he's just he's like making my life hard but like it doesn't matter like whether I show up at 9:35 an appointment at 11 o'clock like who cares what time I get to the office I get my work done I show up half an hour later and I leave half an hour later does that thought process make sense to you that someone could think that oh yeah some people for sure with absolutely right that's my that I've met and these ones yeah and and so so our mind does something we're like like is that thought process illogical No yes good insubordinate sure absolutely so then but but our mind works in a very very funny way it also is like super selective about how it retrieves memories so in that moment when I'm feeling that way and I'm thinking these thoughts about my boss I'm gonna gloss over all kinds of things like for example that the reason that the boss is the manager is because he's the best salesperson in the office that's how he got promoted but in that moment like my mind is gonna gloss away from that does that make sense sure right and and so you hear all kinds of this is what we call a justification right so I was in a marriage and I had an affair because my partner worked too much so like our mind does all kinds of weird gymnastics to justify what we believe about ourselves right so like that's that's the way that our mind absolves our self and responsibility because we don't want to think that we're a bad person so it does more gymnastics and if you go to that person who says that they had an affair because their partner traveled too much for work and you try to talk to them and you try to like show them a different way their mind does the same thing your mind does which is that it comes up with more and more data to support their existing belief does that sound like can you imagine that happening does that sound reasonable to you like if I talk to an alcoholic and I say you're an alcoholic okay and they say you're trying to sure okay but are you trying to convince me that I'm wrong of something different because if not then why are you pointing it out I'm pointing it out to you because I want you to understand what your thought process is doing that your thought process has and will point it out to you later - okay that you have this this option where like you know we'll talk about something and then you'll give me a set of data and I will interpret that data and we'll send it back to you based on the data that you provide and then you will invalidate my conclusion with additional data that's gonna be the process by which your mind works and we're gonna see it half a dozen times over the next hour so just look for it Hey okay that's all I want to point out okay yeah you might be right I mean I have a lot of like stupid mind loops I remember that from reckful show I really identify with that thought yeah mostly most of them come from the depression days we sure that they stick with me sure so I think this is a little bit different I I'm I'm sensing that what you're talking about is a content of your mind is like this like that the what I'm talking about is the process of your mind not the content of your mind okay sure okay so let's just keep an eye on that because I think that there have been many times where you've made statements to me and I generally do this where I repeat back to people what they said in slightly different language and then you kind of block so earlier if that's what I mean by slippery but that's okay it's not it's not your fault I just want you to notice what your mind is doing because why I need to notice them huh why do I need to notice is it like a fold or um it's not that it's a fault it's simply that you play video games I've been done - okay so what do you play these days not so much okay what was the last thing oh lately lately rimworld actually okay I mean I needed it to take my mind off things RIT this week sure cool just came yeah so so like like if you're thinking about rim world like what's the point behind understanding the mechanics of rim world what's the point yeah why would you why do you need to understand how the game functions like what the rules of the game are to not die trust you do well it it you need to understand the mechanics right yep so why do you need to understand the mechanics of your mind listen isn't a life and death situation though no it's not but it's to do well at life right that's what the whole stream is about is that by understanding how your mind works okay you'll get better at the game of life okay but yeah what do I need to do what do I need to do differently about the thing you were talking about though the first thing is to notice it because you can't you can't change anything about your mind unless you're aware that it's acting right so I'm and you and I'm learning that it in the face of a an opposite conclusion I just throw more supporting evidence of my belief yes thing you're right in saying yes that's exactly what I'm saying so I want you to look for it okay and it's not the tricky thing here is it's not that you're wrong so that is it not like I mean obviously you know why I do it though rice because maybe if you had that a little bit more he might be swayed you might reconsider I don't know absolutely because you're convinced you're right and you're gonna keep on giving me evidence until you show me that I'm wrong that's how your mind is working but what I'm saying is that like what you're doing is you're no longer using data from the external world to change your view that's a problem right so this is where like case in point I think the reason that you didn't find a girlfriend over three months okay it is because the same reason that your friend didn't find a girlfriend over three months which is that it's generally speaking hard to find it a girlfriend over a three-month period that's the reason this no right because a three-month period is not a sufficient time span to find a girlfriend okay well what kind of is the rough reference gestation period of thought the sequence 18 months Jesus Christ okay I'm going to speed dating next simple as the point of that so I think the other thing that makes it hard for you to find a girlfriend is that like generally speaking like you're not gonna be happy and actively looking if you're blatantly uncomfortable and don't enjoy what you're doing right like if if I'm a garbage man and I don't like my job my chances of like having a successful interaction with a woman while I'm taking out someone's trash is gonna be really low so if you're if you're in a bar in a club and you hate being there and you feel uncomfortable because you it's it's it suits you to play the game single-player and you don't like being in this large crowded place with thousands of people and it like makes you socially anxious your chances of meeting a girl not only they like Lowe from a three-months standpoint you're not going to show them the attractive version of you you know if there even is one but yeah there we go again can't be helped you see that that's the core belief and now when I say there it is again you can't be helped give me the evidence do you feel like telling me but I really can't be helped somehow you feel okay good good so let's see it no because you keep you keep texting me on this point you already told me I can no I'm not trying to test you on that point I believe you that you you believe that you can what I'm pointing out to you is the reflexive nature of your mind I'm not trying to catch you I'm trying to point out to you that you had the loss of flexion reaction to that ball huh I didn't have a reflexive reaction to that though no no but you just said you just said I don't know if I if I can if I can be all right yeah right yeah so so that that were that phrase that came out of your mouth runs contrary to the belief that you can be helped agreed well yeah I mean we haven't yeah well at this point in time yeah yeah so I just want you to notice your mind that's all I'm telling you to do okay we're gonna this is this like super like heady so so like let me try to make things a little bit more concrete for you okay so thoughts questions actually let's just pause for a second I didn't have anything okay I'm gonna take a drink of water okay I suppose the only thought I have is like when do when do we get to the when do we get to the fixing me part because it seems I don't know how is this is this is this is this this is part of it like I feel like we're correcting god I hope so I just feel like it's like how does this feel to you feels like a lot of digression into um random things yeah what what about what we're talking about is random what are we talking about we're talking about Hawaii mines work which is group which would be fine but it doesn't seem like it's the way in which my mind works as it pertains to my interaction with other people or even like the opposite sex like it doesn't that's not coming into it it's slow like just about just about anything like you are spot-on let my backstory or whatever so so can I tell you can I I'm gonna repeat back to you now okay so let's see what happens so I'm guessing I'm getting from you that we're not necessarily here to talk about your mind in isolation and about something random what we're here to talk about is how your mind interfaces with meeting other people in relationships and how the function of your mind interferes with you like getting a girlfriend sure we're not talking about like your mind and isolation and random things that we're talking about these patterns and crap like that all the patterns we're talking about have nothing to do with girlfriends right is that what it feels like a digression to you yeah I guess so yeah okay so another way so I'm now I'm gonna try to extend things a little bit another way to put it is right now like we're talking about just you we're not talking about anything in the outside world right okay yeah sure and and your sense is that the solution to finding a girlfriend is to like talk about how you interface with the outside world yeah it seems like it would be yeah absolutely does seem like it would be my belief is that it actually isn't okay so I think your biggest problem actually comes from here because if you think about it statistically you're like you like you may be overweight but like lots of dudes are overweight lots of dudes are partially balding in their 30s you're not a bad-looking guy right I mean you may think so but you know I mean I'm pretty sure I can generally like you're not like you're just a normal-looking guy and and I think that the biggest thing that's holding you back is actually the stuff in here because in my experience with gamers entrepreneurs executives housewives this is what I think it's part of me part of me thought so too which is why I wanted to come on very good right yeah it's not like I thought well I'm just coming on because I'm I like the show it's because I yeah yeah very good yeah yeah right so so I think that it's clear to me that you're a smart guy and that you've tried lots of external things I'm not an expert in dating I'm not an expert in how to meet women what I'm an expert in is how your mind works and I'm definitely detecting things that I think would interfere with your ability to find a girlfriend okay and at the top at the top of the list is the idea that you're hopeless sure it's evidence-based but yeah absolutely right there it is again absolutely evidence-based it's probably one day's mile adaptations as you call them around yeah yeah so I don't doubt that it's evidence-based but you see what you did there you're giving me evidence you're gonna give me evidence to make sure that I'm convinced that you are hopeless you're like but it's evidence-based I'm hopeless it's evidence-based that's what you meant right I'm just I'm just letting you know where it comes from it's not like I just made it up I completely agree because I think it is evidence-based I think the reason that you believe you're hopeless is not because you're weak but because you were taught so and you were signaled that by people like that CBT therapist for their best to abruptly terminate with a patient and tell you yeah I'm not gonna see you anymore is very damaging again not really the damage had already been done that that became way too late to really have a significant impact so in in the then I completely agree with you I don't think it affected you that but I think it affects you today because I think it is another point of evidence so that really think about it I don't have to think about it you don't have to think about you know I'm sure you rarely think about when you were eight years old and you didn't want to do a group project that's the whole point behind the subconscious is that the actions that occur to us and the things that happen to us affect our behaviors in our beliefs about ourselves without any conscious knowledge that's like how the mind works hmm yeah but I guess what I'm saying is this logged away with a bunch of [ __ ] about the things that we probably will never have time to discuss and maybe don't need to but that's like a lot of evidence that stacks up against that would make me come to that conclusion yeah I think so dick okay so I don't know what you're trying to do but I think you're so that so you are giving me more and more ammo for my hypothesis which is that your problem with meeting women doesn't come from anything that you do externally but comes from the idea that you're hopeless and when I tell you that you say by the way dr. K that's a very very logical conclusion and I have piles and piles of evidence to believe to make me believe I'm hopeless and I say absolutely it's because you have all of those piles of evidence that the hopelessness is so strong that inner interjects into every interaction you have with female human beings yeah I guess it kind of its kind of like pretty much full oh my god I don't think even any more evidence at this point would even make any difference but but that's not what way that's not gonna be a solution is it like how do we get rid of how to be like reprogram that absolutely so the first thing to understand how you feeling by the way nothing's changed I feel like pretty much the same okay you feel that kind of neutral sure yes you could say I guess you could say that yeah okay so the your question about reprogramming right I guess I feel a little bit hopeful though we're finally starting to touch on maybe like yeah this could this could go somewhere good yes so that's weird because I thought we just concluded that you have overwhelming evidence that you're hopeless in that well you know what we've identified that you've identified that as the thing that needs to change which is see the see I mean I look I have friends and I have colleagues and I have people tell me things like oh you need to you need to dress smarter or you need to you need to get like regular hobbies that are relatable to other people or not you know blah blah blah no one's ever told me you need to like what you just said right okay that's something new to think about this just infuriates me to no end Paul are you a smart guy it's not a trick question how would I know the answer is [ __ ] yes the answer is yes right like okay but why are you asking me about right now well I'm getting I'm going somewhere I'm going somewhere it goes let's start let's just start with laying out or some shits are you a smart guy I'm not trying to trap you it's not a trick question I know I look like I'm about to trap you I'm not gonna trap you okay so you're a smart guy you're a capable guy I have faith in you as a human being okay so if you is a smart guy if you're given a thousand solutions like dress differently and do this and do this if you were given a thousand solutions to a problem of not meeting a girl and none of those solutions work what do we know about the like what does that tell us well the credible thing is like some of them I don't want to try because they're like they require changing fundamentally Who I am sometimes I get suggestions like that so then I'm thinking do I haven't even tried them so it's got that I might have to do this I might be gonna have to I don't think you you are don't change who you are no no exactly this will leaves it leaves room for doubt well it's something you've not tried then people are telling you should do it yeah so like at the point that I'm trying to make is like if you try a thousand solutions and you haven't tried a thousand sure there's stuff you haven't try and fine but you've tried a lot of stuff right like you've been struggling to like find a girlfriend for years and like over a decade it sounds like yeah well on and off a certain point I put it at some point I put the whole thing to bed and I just you concluded that maybe it's just not for me yep but I keep but I keep seeing there's there what what is what is that it's not for me that's the can't be helped you see that you're hopeless like that yeah well the it's a you can't keep chasing something that there's other things to do with your time right it's kind of like that fury 18 to like go after something that you're clearly not good at at some point you just [ __ ] give up yeah how does that that's is that it conflicting because in some ways it's therapeutic so you no longer to think you know I could long have to worry about it if it's not only a goal to strive for something that seems hopeless then that's therapeutic because well it release it's comfortable because you just couldn't use put it to bed you don't but you keep relapsing and coming back to this idea like so like I lost like ten kilos or fifteen kilos a couple years ago and I saw and then I got like some fresh new clothes I thought well you [ __ ] put the two and put those two things together maybe I should give it another shot and it didn't work out and then like okay well [ __ ] I guess I'm just lose more weight I know I don't know what I don't know what I need to try and do but you keep relapsing and like giving in them giving it another go because you get all these kind of like data points from other people like that I really [ __ ] happy in their relationships and like you never had one so it's like at least one I have one one time just to see what it's like for me I mean they sing to you having a good time with it but so now we get to the core okay because you have so being hopeless is protective do you get that giving up gives you comfort you see that and then every once in a while your loneliness Rises and you say I want that I'm gonna try again you let yourself hope and wait you let yourself hope you get smacked in the face yeah yeah and and then being hopeless and giving up becomes even more comforting because you have tried and you have tried and you have tried and life has smacked you across the face over and over and over again so why the [ __ ] why the [ __ ] even bother it's impossible let me just accept that this is never for me let me be hopeless let me conclude that I can't be helped because if I tell myself I cannot be helped I don't have to be hurt anymore if I accept it is a isn't is it's impossible and it's if I can do that I can live with that because I can live with loneliness what I can't live with is hope and like trying again mmm no it's just that so like let's let's suppose it let's just entertain for a moment the idea that maybe actually I'm not suitable there is no one in the world that was made for me just let's entertain that thought for just a second if that was the case if you could possibly know that from the future then you would go back and tell yourself well don't even waste your time with it like focus on the things you're actually good at and develop those even further excel at those right why the [ __ ] it's totally futile to spend any of that effort you put into it if you could of course we did week on though like he maybe maybe I came super [ __ ] close maybe I just needed to go a bit further than I would who knows but like at this point you don't know but like when you when you start to collect so much evidence that there seems to suggest that you just [ __ ] not bother than like yeah so I'm just pack it in III think I think you're I think you're right Paul I think that your disease or your reason to pack it in is a very good one this comes back to you your problem is not that you're dumb your problem is that you're smart your problem is that the logical conclusions you come to have the force of intelligence behind them not ignorance this is what makes cognitive bias so lethal for you because the smarter you are the stronger the cognitive biases which you have to understand about cognitive biases it's like something hijacking your IQ so the smarter you are the harder it is to overcome your cognitive bias because your capacity to make logical arguments and find evidence is very very high which in turn makes it harder for you to convince yourself that hopelessness is not the right path because you've logically you do this philosophical thought experiment well let's assume for a moment that like some people are meant to be alone which is like a reasonable assertion like not every billion not every one of the seven billion people on the planet like some of them have to be alone right just statistically well it works it works out mathematically like if on average there's 50% male and female I just [ __ ] know so it was good yeah what are you doing right now what is it doing right now pay attention giving you the [ __ ] data is mind Lee [ __ ] good one I like this story but you don't need to hear it actually good I'm glad that you recognize that you like it this is why your mind keeps on going there you love that mind loop so much because it protects you from so many things it that mind loop and this is why you have such a strong cognitive bias that you can't be helped because if you can't be helped then you can just let abandon it all you can you can let yourself go from the roller coaster of hope and rejection and hurt and failure okay but you've you've proved you've proved that several times but when can we start on the like how do we reprogram it though this is how we reprogram it how by noticing so awareness precedes control ever had dental work done I had a feeling yeah did you get numb they never you up yeah yeah can you control your mouth when you're numb well you certainly don't want to control it during the operation but uh yeah you can control that what you mean you can't feel it yeah so what happens to the control of your mouth when you can't feel it oh you you have to be careful you can end up biting yourself you know you notice you can injure yourself yeah so as your awareness return so why would you bite yourself it's because your control is imperfect it's impaired yeah by the degree of numbness right and so if you had one feeling it sounds like they numbed up just one part of your mouth yeah and so you had control over you had good control over the last bad control over here and you can hurt yourself as you gain control as you gain awareness of this part of your mouth what happens to your control over that part of your mouth I mean we regain control I mean absolutely how do you gain control by being able to feel your mouth how does that work Paul I'm not unknown neuroscientist but I guess because you're receiving signals from the nerves in your Union your mouth and yeah so you have no you've no [ __ ] idea all you know is that it's true right more or less it's like like you have to be a neuroscientist like it's not like people who are neuroscientists are the only ones that can control their mouth everyone can control their mouth sure of course in awareness precedes control if you ever if you're in a relationship with someone who's super manipulative and you don't realize what they're doing to you you're gonna get manipulated once you start to become aware that manipulation is happening from your boss or a co-worker or a partner then you gain control over it you're like oh yeah yes that you have to you have to learn that in London because people will take people will uh people will [ __ ] him and they let you scammy whatever in they're not travelling as well yeah if you traveled and so as you become aware of what they're doing how do you gain control over your life like how does that work like is that is awareness enough pretty much yeah well there you go you just have to see a cut you have to do you have to see it coming uh experience this a little bit as well you have to not to deal with it too good yep so I'm gonna take the first answer that you gave me which is pretty much you have to know how to do with it absolutely but awareness is where people fall short and this goes back to my earlier point the reason that I don't think you've been able to find a girlfriend is because you've been solving the wrong problem you've been solving a problem that's external wear different clothes lose weight do this do that go to the club all of your solutions have been in an external space I'm sure and I think your problem the reason you can't find a girlfriend has nothing to do with any of that [ __ ] because you've tried all that [ __ ] and if that was your problem then logically you should have found a girlfriend yeah ergo you're treating the wrong disease yeah okay right so in medicine we make a diagnosis and we provide people with a treatment if the treatment doesn't work sometimes it's because our diagnosis is wrong and you've been treating external factors time and time and time again whereas I think what's going on is you have this I was about to say soul-crushing but I think what it really is so here's another pearl for you it's a very protective hopelessness well it's not it's not a pearl because it doesn't it doesn't state it doesn't state what you need to do it just it is states of how things are yeah which is still useful because I would never have phrased that I guess it is a pearl in a way it's not it's not a lot of resolution but now we come back to the first [ __ ] thing that I told you which is that you're looking for the thing that you're gonna put on your wall that's gonna transform your life not how it works buddy I mean I'm not gonna put on my wool that I have a protective shroud of hopelessness but there's nothing you can put on your wall this process of growth is not binary that's my point nothing is going to feel transformative to you but is it huge absolutely it's little things little things about the way that you view yourself little things about understanding that when you go meet someone we are empathic human beings and that's someone that the girls that you meet are gonna sense within you some degree of hopelessness that even if you try to engage with them you are not gonna be carefree right are you saying that are you saying that I worry about that or that that's actually what's happening that people can actually sense of it I think people can sense it because here's what I think people sense I don't think people sense you being carefree and when someone is looking for a mate the number of people who are attracted to people who are not carefree like that's what's attractive like that's when you're able to be your best self when you were unburdened it makes a lot of sense because like how can you because I went through a spree of speed dating as well like I'm like a dozen events and you meet so many people they must have met hundreds of people and they like they will consistently reject you it seems like well and you only meet them like four minutes right so they have to they have to pick up on something pretty [ __ ] fast so I mean that does that does fit yeah because I I just don't know like I wear it on my sleeve like how how is it that [ __ ] obvious I don't know I I don't know I don't know either I just know that as human beings were empathic and that I think that like you you know when someone is carefree and when someone is burdened right I don't do you know it in the first four minutes of meeting them I don't know I don't know worth investigating let's ask twitch at twitch at is this guy burdened or is he carefree and did you know in the first four minutes also for you dr. K did I did I seem burned in the first four minutes like absolutely okay right it's taken me an hour to convince you that you believe that you cannot be helped but I've been trying for an hour I've been trying to point this whole thing out to you for one hour we've been talking about the same [ __ ] thing for the last hour twitch at CPAC and why as though yes and no go back and watch the vine I will yeah for the benefit that I don't have twitch chat on because it'd be too distracting but I yeah I know what they're saying don't ban anyone I want to know the real I want to know what a Jewett fish that's really saying yeah right so I think twitch at can tell that you're burdened okay and that's not your fault it's not your dumb it's just what is right now and I think this burden of hopelessness has built up within you and then I think like generally speaking if I'm going to like try to gauge the success of any endeavor a human beings belief in whether they can succeed or whether they're gonna fail tends to have a lot to do with whether they succeed or fail a lot of people who say they can succeed still fail very few people who believe they fail success that was the that was the message of a poem my granddad gave me that's it that's something that I don't know very well yeah I read it as funeral Ashley let that exactly that message yeah you sooner or later those who succeed are those who believe they can is the sort of ending of that poem yep you believe that and I believe it in my working life I do I do pretty well like professionally sure I should like have a career in London is actually it's uh it's not for everyone to say that yeah I believe you're very capable but not knowing everything I disagree I think the big difference between your professional careers that you believe you can succeed and the big difference in your dating life is that you believe you can't yeah I wonder why that is because it's it's not like it's not like I didn't face a schilit of adversity in my friend actually I had real trouble holding down a job partly cuz I'm like not very social as we I it's less for problem now hmm just cuz I've been through it so many [ __ ] times like but it was really rough start yep so what's the difference between a rough start like so what's the difference that's you're asking so you're doing a very good job Paul so now you're looking at your life you're reflecting and I think you're actually changing because you're asking yourself why is it that in my professional life despite adversity I was able to like power through and succeed whereas in my dating life I have been unable to and so my question for you is when you were facing adversity Paul what did you think in your deepest darkest self what did you think about your prospects of success did you accept hopelessness first yes but it's a really hard one to answer because actually the first time I lost my first job it wasn't just about the job actually it was the two things intertwined it was the climb at a girl at work and she ultimately got me fired and I and I despaired about that for a cup for at least a year I didn't I just I didn't work I was unemployed I was collecting the Jobseeker's Allowance which is what we have in the UK when you're like eventually I obviously through through necessity more than anything I needed money I got back back into the working world but I didn't get into the okay remember you're making this way too easy for everybody so I think your absolute despair after after that work experience I don't think you can look at that as just a professional experience because there was a woman involved you know so I said that I said it intertwined is that she's like both of those exactly at the same time right so that's a that reinforces our building hypothesis that you've never really like been hopeless about your work you may have been hopeless about that situation but I think that situation was contaminated by a woman yeah yeah yeah I guess part of it is like I don't know no that's completely correct after you so this was like 10 years ago see it's easy to forget but actually the reason I didn't want to go back into another job straight away is because I was worried that the same thing would happen again with a woman like not so what you're right look is the thing it's not professional never was I've always been [ __ ] so that now you ask yourself the question why have I been able to face adversity in my job and been successful and faced adversity in my dating life and been unsuccessful it's because the [ __ ] adversity that you face in your job didn't come from your job became from women it's the same problem yes well okay finds it whether it's not very helpful revelation because it's just okay so that we're still concluding that my work has been fine and my dating has not been fine which is we knew that the whole time no we did it right so this began when we authentically reflected and scratched our heads and said why why did I face why did I get fired and I was unemployment on unemployment for one year why did I not give up hope then and was I truly hopeless and is work actually different from women because I faced adversity in both now we have confirmed our hypothesis it's not that we didn't know like we had a suspicion but we should still reflect and confirm authentically so this still comes back to then what this means is that like if the big difference between your professional life and your dating life is your internal sense of confidence about whether you can succeed that also confirms that your road forward has nothing to do with the shirt that you wear or how much you weigh it has to do with your belief about whether you can actually be in a successful relationship with a woman okay good okay it's more reinforcement I guess what are we doing about it though okay so so I've answered that question a couple times but I'll make things a little bit more calm I'm gonna give you what you want which is not what I think is gonna help you but I'm gonna give you what you want so the first thing is I've been saying to you several times that understanding that your hopelessness is what I think really holds you back in terms of your relationships with women uh-huh and that so now what I want you to do is train yourself to see the hopelessness right so when you when you you're going to a speed-dating thing there's the sign good so when you think about the speed-dating thing how do you feel yeah I feel hopeless doctor okay that's changing and the fact that you can laugh at it so this is exactly what I want you to do Paul when you go into the speed-dating thing before you enter the door to wherever this place is notice that hopelessness catch it and [ __ ] laugh in its face just like you did and when you're sitting across from a woman and you feel that hopelessness catch it look at it in laughing's [ __ ] face and when you laugh like that it's such a pure and beautiful laugh do you guys see that dude chat and laugh in its face and when you smile like that you know what she's gonna do gonna pick it up and leave no she's gonna smile there it is beautiful you see that look at that that's beautiful look at how much confusing [ __ ] is there you don't even know what's going on you're like what is this but but I'm not in that moment I'm not gonna laughter am i and this assuming that I even as you say catch it it's hard like what do you think it's hard to grasp like there it is pay attention but in that moment you see well I don't know what just happened in your mind but there was something beautiful and positive and there was something changed you're a different slightly different person now and there comes the thought again like a [ __ ] boomerang but it's not gonna work dr. K it's really not gonna work I can't really do it can i I can't do this there you see that what do you mean what do you mean that like catch catch the no stop for a second listen to what I just said what did your mind just do Paul I'm just I'm just asking you how do you do it okay I'm okay like Han okay you're asking me to do something I've never done I think no I'm not asking you to do something you've never done catch the hopelessness you said arrived I'm not asking you to do something you've never done I'm asking you to do something that you did for the first time just now more or less never more or less than ever and never very big differences there's a huge difference between you me telling you to do something that you've never done before and something that you've done once and if you've done it once you can do it again how did you do it I'm not quite sure but you've done it once a couple of times actually it wasn't just once you did it a couple of times in a row is like multiple orgasms I collect it back there's nothing the only women have it depends on whether you learn tantric sex is a man no I'm gonna pretend to know that means but then yeah conversation I guess day gotta get you a girlfriend first of all I guess I'm one of the lucky few men who also know what that feels like how you feeling I just I want I wanted to do what you say I want it to be that when I go there something is different and I just have a doubt that it will be yep let me hear that yeah so so be it so you're doing a good job so even now you're doing a better job than you were at the beginning of the hour because instead of going and and so at the beginning of the hour your doubt was manifesting his resistance to what I was saying but now already your doubt no longer manifests as resistance instead what you say is I have a doubt you've actually made a huge difference there I want everyone to see that you guys see how he's different he used to just block and be slippery and now he says but dr. K I have doubt whereas that was the doubt that was manifesting as evidence and argument and resistance and now he sees there as a doubt go back and watch and you've never said like I mean you did sort of but it's very different so do you have work to do absolutely is this easy absolutely not can you change absolutely are you hopeless absolutely not can you do it I don't know is it possible I don't know can you do it again yeah if you can do it once you can do it again so you tell me how what just happened what just happened man what was that like weird laughing crying like what was that what were you feeling like what the [ __ ] was that man I don't know actually I don't know okay I I seems like real true short-term memory problems isn't the other no no no it's it's it's not short-term memory problems it's just you you have trained yourself to be unfamiliar with emotions and you've suppressed them so I've just like yeah I'm bad with emotions I told you already I have like I'm a bad memory for them maybe it doesn't even have to be long ago like yes sir have you seen any of our videos about alexithymia no watch those there on our YouTube channel they'll give you a little bit but but here's the thing so I don't know that you've been so I their hope for you absolutely man convinced now more than ever if you can laugh like that if you can look at your hopelessness in the face and [ __ ] laugh at it that was laughing I don't know what you were laughing at but it was something beautiful I don't know it was pure why is it why is it what do you mean though like why is it beautiful because it was unburdening it why is it beautiful actually don't know I don't know it just was like why is this sunset beautiful I don't know like I'm pretty sure twitch at loved it too but partly yes of course I mean the objective is always to make the guests like [ __ ] break down isn't that right makes a good show do you think that's what the objective is well right makes a good [ __ ] huh hard to deny that no I don't think it's about breaking them down I think it's about lifting a mop dude this huge difference yeah there was something kind of um there was something kind of positive about it in a weird way yeah so here's the thing I I don't think I I think let's just take a break I think this is I'm gonna give you a chance to ask questions but I think I know this is gonna be a little bit unsatisfying but I think this is good for today right so you want me to fix everything I can't do that this is not something I can do overnight all right I'll get you to your first breakthrough buddy but I think what you need to do now is understand what happened okay so like I don't know exactly how that's gonna work I'm gonna have to think about it a little bit I think maybe what we need to do is have you come back on later right so I think that if you want to work with a therapist again your work may be different this time because now you have something to kind of work on practically what I want you to do and I know you don't believe this and it doesn't feel like it but I think this is enough so as long as you continue to see your hopelessness and as long as you can kind of notice it and laugh in its face as you walk and you approach women the person that they are going to see is someone that no women has ever seen before well it should just be clear I don't normally walk an approach with it that's why the speed dating works is because it forces you to do that I define so I mean I don't need you to walk in approached women because you're a smart guy and you're gonna figure out the external solutions you're probably problem is not in figuring out external solutions like you said you've already figured it out you're gonna do speed dating fine my goal is in unburdening the pawl that goes up goes its to speed dating and the first step to that is to recognize that that hopelessness is there and that you have doubt that you'll ever be in a relationship and to just notice notice notice notice notice just to notice it doesn't seem like it doesn't see it doesn't seem I feel like what you're trying to do by notice is not what I it's like it you do you have a different definition because I must have noticed it what do you mean no I don't think I don't think you noticed it so what I mean yeah you're right I have a different definition so what I mean is notice it with distance what distance between you and the hopelessness instead of saying I I'll give you an example okay so what's the difference between I will be alone for the rest of my life and I sometimes think I will be alone for the rest of my life one is an absolute and one is just a thought another absolutely so another way to put it I'm going to be alone for the rest of my life my mind believes that I'm going to be alone for the rest of my life what's the difference between those two well you're doing this thing like that you teach in meditation where it's like well you you and you and your mind or I don't know your body in your mind or these are the like disconnect what about listen to the statements I will be alone for the rest of my life my mind believes I will be alone for the rest of my life you're right but just look at the statement I would say this I would say the same thing again is like you're pretending or very good that your mind is a different thing like it's not somehow it's not you yes so very good one is an absolute truth and one is a thought so now let me ask you something Paul when you believe that you are gonna be alone from the rest of your life where does that come from well dude did I believe that that was it just a thought I don't know if I really believed it if I truly believed it why would I even be going to doing all these things so I I think the hopelessness is a something if you heard about some scars if you were like that so you have a you have a some scar that you are hopeless and that you will always be alone so sometimes it activates and sometimes it doesn't but when it activates you believe fully in those moments that you are gonna be hopeless that you will be alone for the rest of your life so the first thing to understand is that the conclusion feels true to you right like this whole hour you've been giving me evidence evans evidence no dr. kay it is true it is true it is true absolute statements not thoughts that's not how you treat them but they are thoughts and thoughts come from the mind and the mind is not the knower of truth we treat it like it is but just think about it for a second the mind is not infallible on the contrary it's fallible all the time but when you - when you believe that to be true it's your mind that's doing it so create distance between reality and whatever the mind wants to do because you've had these experiences at the age of eight first job that you got fired by a woman I'm sure there are other experiences being rejected by your therapist this and that all of these things might not fired by your women find because of because we're so start by noticing and what I mean by notice you're absolutely right may have a different definition so what that what that definition is is in those moments when you know something to be absolutely true take a step back and recognize that this is my mind that is telling me this doesn't mean it's true that is how you notice to create distance you can also meditate meditate is the practice of stepping back from your mind and as you step back from your mind something like what happened today will happen again and you will be able to laugh and you will be able to laugh beautifully and you will be able to laugh freely and when you were able to laugh beautifully in front and freely in front of a woman she's gonna think you're a little bit crazy and 99% of women are gonna think you're a little bit crazy 1% of them are gonna fall in love because that's how it works love is crazy you're gonna feel embarrassed but one person is gonna like like have you ever seen just like a woman just laughing her heart out and it's there's something even if you know she's nuts there's something just beautiful about that right like the laughter of a child is just beautiful and pure and it's attractive or even just a smile but yeah yeah if it's an unburdened smile yeah and it's been a long time since you've had an unburdened smile my friend I feel like you're just guessing that but that's very true if it's a guess a little but not what do you all I'm doing is guessing buddy all I do I don't know anything man well I know about you nothing it's just guessing right okay well it was good guess I don't yeah I don't smile that much yeah she smiled beautifully today Thanks that's questions my only thought is like how am I gonna catch my hopelessness with practice so meditate meditation right now because I think you've been through a lot I don't think you're in a good frame of mind to learn is that okay I mean I'm fine now but but if you know it's okay ya know what what I want you to just sit with what you've experienced today and try to process it while it's fresh in your mind and I have a I'm concerned that meditation may calm down sure sure yeah does that make sense so sometimes when people have emotional stuff I sort of recommend that they don't meditate sure I'll take that under advisement you're the expert on that yeah but I think you know you could have you done alternate nostril breathing before no I've watched it I don't think I I guess I approach with a bit of skepticism so I don't always follow along with that part okay so I want you to understand this about meditation so you don't you don't have to believe in it it's not about skepticism so like if I'm skeptical that exercising will cause me to lose weight do I need to believe that huh so he's just doing it as sufficient you don't have to absolutely think just do it okay yeah what makes it easier yeah you don't have to believe in it it's just gonna do what its gonna do okay nice right I like that yeah it's like I'm skeptical that this water will produce urine you just drink the water your body will yeah okay all right man strong work Browdy thanks doc okay you have a little bit of a long road ahead but I think you can walk it okay just sit with this we'll we'll do round two later okay all right and I look forward to that yeah yeah take care of man good luck thanks Jase bye bye okay twitch at okay so yeah so like things can feel pretty circular but that's okay right so we just got to keep at it so I want you guys to understand you know for yourselves as well like don't give up on yourself right like just don't give up on yourself and yeah just don't just don't give up I don't know what else to say like I don't have any other like wise words for you guys and just understand that that life is not about like so we get so concerned about outcomes right we get so concerned about failure we get concerned like heat like so he tries to ask out women it doesn't work and then you start to like concern yourself with failure and then you start to believe things about the future life is not about the future it's about the present like action happens in the present and you can't predict the future so take the actions that you want to in the moment and stay true to what your goal is our goal there was not to make him break down our goal there was to help him as much as we can and if he has a pearl of wisdom fine if he doesn't have a pearl wisdom that's okay we're just gonna try our best you don't shoot for a particular target and he says oh you know you want to break people down because that's good television sure it's good television but that's not worry to here for we're not there yeah it's not what were there for certainly not to break up them down sometimes does emotional expression do people resonate with that yeah but I don't think it's like it's not good television when you see something authentic and change in another person that's like the reason we go for that is because that's like the crit heal you guys get that that's the [ __ ] heal for a Oh a healing that's the crit you want a fatty crit man need a crit heal so just try to focus on what you need to be doing and focus lay and just keep doing so I'll leave this with you guys okay so understand that gutter ball gutter ma means action and gaddama has a fart which means fruit so generally speaking there's actions we take in the fruits of our actions right there's like studying for a test and getting an A our society is overly concerned with the fruit of our action we're concerned with the outcome we're concerned with quarterly reports we're concerned with what the stock market is doing we're concerned with the outcome we don't care about the action we care about the outcome if you give the people the option to cheat they will if you give them do you want to work your whole life or you want to win the lottery people say I want to win the lottery like I'd fall into that camp - we all care about the outcome we don't focus on the action wrong way to live life focus on the action it's not about getting an a it's about studying as hard as you can it's not about losing weight it's about doing ten push-ups every day it's not about finding a girlfriend it's about working on yourself and letting go of the hopelessness that you feel it's about improving your own life right don't focus on finding a girlfriend focus on you and doing what you want to that's the goal and the cool thing is that if we were concerned if guys if I was really concerned about getting a big emotional response from Paul I would have given up a long time ago because it wasn't happening it's gonna happen like I can't do that every time it wasn't happening like it wasn't happening like we're trying for an hour like nothing fine but that's not our goal our goal is not to get him to do that our goal is to help him meet him wherever he is and try to move him one step forward so focus on the action focus on where he is focus on where you are and focus on what you need to do today and as long as you do the right thing today today today today today today irrespective of what happens then your life will start to turn around 140 rejections from medical school before I got in really easy to despair fine.you despair fine I despaired notice the desperation the next day apply to a few more schools the next year apply to more schools the next year apply to more schools 140 rejections over the course of three years people in my family who cared about me were like you should think about Plan B man like you've got a 2.5 GPA like you've applied to 400 schools no one has accepted you what do you think is gonna happen to third time around I don't know right so thank you guys very much for coming hopefully that was helpful to y'all and let's try to get a real in salon that guy was too wholesome to be in it so he was like too good of a person let's get some real like toxic from malevolent hatred of the world let's try to work with that and see if we can help that person

Channel: HealthyGamerGG

Views: 1,476,088

Keywords: mental health, drk, dr kanojia, healthygamergg, healthy gamer gg, harvard, twitch, psychiatrist, incel, incel ask me anything, incel reddit, dating, incel dating, incel dating advice, inceldom, inceldom on the rise, inceldom definition

Id: MPnWbj70TTY

Length: 98min 54sec (5934 seconds)

Published: Sat Mar 07 2020

Reddit Comments

[u/dragonbig1]

Also I am very curious to hear what u/scottalexander thinks of this channel, and if he thinks it’s useful for young ppl to watch. my summary of the channel is that it’s basically he’s a dharmic JBP that focuses on gamers/NEETs specifically.

[u/Kibubik]

Interesting title so I started watching but the specialist seemed so distracted that I had to stop. He keeps looking to the side and asking for clarifications because he's not paying attention. Sad that the guy is giving this his best on a sensitive topic but won't get the same in return

[u/corsega]

I wanted to dismiss this (because of the dumb thumbnail and the fact that it's so long, I expected some lame Dr. Phil type of thing), but it's actually quite good.

The doctor, Dr K. is very solid. Yes, he comes off as aggressive and Type A, and I could see how he could be very grating to the "introvert overanalyzer" archetype (which Paul clearly is) but he doesn't spend too long harping on one "I have a hammer and all I see are nails" issue like many doctors do. He seems to generally care and sees Paul as an individual with his own unique issues.

I do think Dr K. overanalyzes Paul to make a point, especially the portion around 35:00. It is absolutely possible he did just bring up the fact that the guy who got laid was "looser" in order to give the doctor more information, and not just because of cognitive dissonance. I have had similar interactions with mental health practitioners and always leave annoyed. I understand why they do it (because they need to make you feel like you've had a breakthrough in a session with limited time), but it doesn't sit right with me.

Unfortunately, I don't necessarily agree with Dr. K that Paul's problem isn't with "external solutions". I understand he's saying that because he doesn't actually have experience as a "dating coach", but even with clearing mental blocks, Paul is still going to have a hard time. He is an balding, nerdy-looking guy in one of the toughest cities for dating in Europe. Even with perfect mental health, he would likely have a hard time getting laid, much less finding a girlfriend. Next steps I would propose are getting contacts, shaving his hair down to a 1 or 2 (edit: looks like he ended up doing this), hitting the weights, and upgrading his fashion. With enough work, he could actually be a solid 6.5/10.

I really feel for the guy and wish him the best. It took major cojones to step up in front of an audience and expose his problems to the world. Here is the second video with him, by the way.

[u/Ikosah]

It's interesting to see everyone's perspective of Dr.K since I haven't seen much good criticism of him. I personally like him but I can understand the critiques other people are putting forward. I'll try to give some background about him below.

Dr. K is a Harvard trained psychiatrist who streams on Twitch (a live streaming platform) every week doing interviews like this one, often with well-known streamers but also with viewers. He's gained popularity for his conversations with popular streamers, especially when they cry or show some deep vulnerability. He has about 5 to 10 thousand viewers on average, and peaked at nearly 30 thousand viewers on one stream IIRC. He almost failed out of college with a 2.5 ish GPA and had over 100 failed applications to medical school. However, he moved to Boston where, by an amazing stroke of luck, he got a tour around a university and got an interview (I forget for what exactly but it allowed him to get into med school).

His main angle is on self-improvement for gamers, especially against video game addiction. One of his mottos is that mental health in America is too slow, too expensive and too old. This is why he does these therapy-like sessions to try and help those who have been failed by the medical system. Since the average age of psychiatrists is about 50 years old they do not relate to a younger generation whose problems are intertwined with gaming, social media etc. Thus, he created a coaching program where he personally trains coaches that will help gamers improve themselves at an affordable price. During the month of May he raised just over $100 000 dollars for this program; an impressive feat that shows how much of an impact he has on his viewers.

Additionally, he also talks a lot about spirituality and teaches meditation at the end of every session. The spirituality is based on Hindu philosophy and concepts like Dharma (and other topics I forget how to spell). I'm less of a fan of his spirituality stuff but they're interesting ideas.

The reason why I like him is because by watching these interviews, I have had some revelations about myself. Some of the people he's talked to have similar problems that I have, and by hearing what he's had to say I've been able to look at my problems in a different light and learn about concrete ways to improve myself. If you don't have access to a therapist, this seems like the next best thing (although I've never been to therapy so take that with a grain of salt). I think one of his strengths is that he genuinely connects to gamers (being a gamer himself) and as a result can inspire people who spend 12-14+ hours a day gaming to change their lifestyle for the better.

Another positive aspect of these interviews is that it destigmatizes therapy to some degree. Although this is not technically therapy, it definitely does have some elements of it and highlights its benefits. Especially for guys, seeking help for mental health problems is often discouraged since it can seem "weak".

I also enjoy watching the sessions just because he probes into the minds of a wide variety of people which can be very interesting. He's had people with depression, bipolar disorder, dissociative disorder and more, on his stream. Overall even if you do not like this personality, he is a genuinely good person who I hope will change the landscape of mental health in the future.

[u/dragonbig1]

I like watching this guy. As a just out of college, programmer stuck at a dead end job his videos gave me a lot of advice for building mental fortitude.

Also helped that he made me reconsider the teachings of Hindu philosophy (my parents are hindu but not religious) which gave me something to lean into. I like the guy and recommend him to my (mostly indian) friend group

[u/Reach_the_man]

Rimworld is stupidity addictive. Of course you'll feel miserable in usual meatspace interactions because they are in fact mostly pretty miserable compared to playing Rimworld.

[u/percyhiggenbottom]

It doesn't seem like psychologically healthy to label yourself as an incel

[u/rothkochapel]

There's a part 2 where the incel dude really opens up, watch that one as well

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xOVEkogq5QQ

[u/proudly_toxic]

I'm not seeing any physical barriers to dating in Paul. This may be my ignorance but I thought incels were usually considered really unattractive by conventional metrics. The dude has symmetrical features and isn't ugly by any means, isn't grossly overweight either which I would have thought might be factors. What am I missing?