Can People Change the World? Activists, Social Movements, and Utopian Futures | LSE Festival

hello everyone and welcome to the loc for today's hybrid event titled can people change the world activists social movements and utopian futures this forms a part of lsc's Festival titled people and change my name is armina Ish Canyon and I'm an associate professor in the department of social policy at the LSC and I'm also the executive director of the Atlantic fellows for social and economic equity program based at the lsc's international inequalities Institute I was meant to be a speaker but we had an unforeseen event so I've stepped in as chair I'm very pleased to be here to welcome Dr faiza Shaheen who's with us in person and Georgia Haddad nicolao who is online joining us from Brazil welcome to both our in-person audience and everyone joining us online Dr faiza Shaheen is the program head for the inequality and exclusion Grand Challenge of the Pathfinders for peaceful just and inclusive societies at the center for on International cooperation at New York University she is also an economist commentator and the author of a recently published book know your place purchase straight after this event Georgia Haddad nicolao is an Atlantic fellow for social and economic equity and a co-founder and director of the Brazilian commons-based organization institutto ProCom she is a civil society professional activist cultural manager and creative professional hi Georgia good to see you hi for any Twitter users in the audience the hashtag for today's event is hashtag lse Festival all one word I would please ask everyone in the audience to put your phones on silent so as not to disrupt the event this event is being recorded and will hopefully be made available as a podcast subject to no technical difficulties as usual there will be an opportunity for you to put your questions to our speakers for our online audience you can submit your questions via the Q a feature please include your name and affiliation as you do so and for those attending in person I will let you know when we will open the floor for questions kindly raise your hand and I will let you know um I will ask the stewards to bring you a roving microphone and again please let us know your name and affiliation I will try to ensure a range of questions from both our online and in-person audiences so the way this is going to work is instead of having two presentations I'm going to ask four questions and the speakers will respond in turn and they will have after each round of questions and opportunity to comment on each other's questions after about half an hour I'll open the floor to a quick q a so shall we get started great so Georgia you're going to be um the first so the first question is the 21st century has seen the world shaken by protests why do you think we are seeing so many protests all around the globe and to what extent is the mobilization by social movements affecting wider policy and political changes over to you Georgia hello good morning everybody do you hear me well yeah okay well it's a pleasure to be here thank you and nice to meet you and everybody else so I'm Georgia I'm speaking from Brazil at 7am here so good morning um so uh and I love this subject of the recession because it's something that um I think about every day but not as a question but as an affirmation that people can change the world um and regarding your question or mine I think that one of the reasons that we have seen the word uh Rising this is because of democracy because I think we have space to protest um maybe not the space we need and want but we're space and connectedness so we have more people um connected to each other from different localities and more access to information so from one side I do think that we have think of about like 100 years ago we have more space protests we have more space to say what we want and see and at the same time we have more inequality also so I think the access to tools formation to connection with other people collectives and your our interdependent is Raising and some people just don't have any other option rather than just go to the street and organize themselves live to see me right um and we know that it's not always effective in the sense that we have seen the state using their forces against protests but also I still think that if we look at as an historical timeline we're seeing changes seeing things that we would never imagine so I think I do think that mobilization by social movement is affecting policy and political changes not always for the good so this year is 10 years of 2013 in Brazil when we had the protests and then that not directly but three years later a president got scoped or impeached depends on how you read it for me she got impeached um and it did affect political changes because we also seen bolsonaro rise but then now we see Bula coming back and you know I think Brazil is still trying to understand the effects of 2013. so I think there are changes we just don't look at exactly where they led us but um I think it totally connected to both the rights and power but also and reorganizing of social movements again at least this is what I'm saying thank you Georgia over to you Raisa yes I think the first thing to note really is the scale of which protest has increased around the world um there was a study that looked at a 15-year period 2006 to 2020 and it found that um that protesters um double tripled in 15 years and then when we did some work at NYU looking at data between 2020 and 2022 we saw 44 increase again and this is you know it's really something that people are out in the street in this way and it's increased in every region which of course we know that some regions are and some countries are not as open to having um Civil Society but you can see that anger spill out onto the streets wherever you look now understanding why that is um I think there are multiple factors and there's some good studies that have looked at this you know some of this is just a failure just anger at failed political systems and the lack of democracy some of this is about inequality and I think it's not a coincidence that at the same time we've had this high level of inequality and people recognize that they can see that the rich are getting a lot richer while their lives have got a lot harder they are then faced with this situation where actually policy is moving in the other direction so if you take a look at some of the protests that happened in say Colombia in 2021 what's yet 2021 you know this anger at like what was happening to taxes so taxes on um working class and middle class people when actually the tax increase should be on the wealthiest um and so I think that disconnect between this growing chasm in people's well-being and livelihoods with this kind of opposite direction of policy often the way in which um uh states have been captured and policies are moving been in the opposite direction to which people would hope and I think it's really important to note that of these protests you know those of us that I mean Works in Civil Society of course we love to see protests because we think people should go out and fight for their rights but some of these protests are not necessarily um about you know all of the struggles we might care about in this room they are at like anti-masks um you know they're kind of anti-vaccine there are things that maybe you know we might not necessarily think that um would be the case a few years ago but they still demonstrate a lack of trust and that's the key here it's a lack of trust in institutions and we've seen this fundamental um shift down in how much people trust institutions partly because of the policy disconnect that I've spoken about but more in general you know just seeing that um the political actors are not representing the interests of people and not feeling heard thanks faisa it's interesting you both mentioned democracy but in different ways failure of democracy or democracy as opening up space um so on that you know when we talk about democracy or political systems I'm going to my second question which is about where do we think change happens right the locus of change and what is the relationship between institutionalized politics so parliamentary politics governments and social movements and and as you're thinking about this when we think about the state we often think about National or federal levels are there differences between you know the ability of change to happen at a local versus a national level so this time I'll start with you fisa about the relationship of institutionalized politics and change so some of you will know but um so I'm running for the labor party at the next election against Ian Duncan Smith um and so um you know I've kind of been thinking about this a lot and a lot of people ask me about this you know what is the what couldn't you make more difference outside of parliament like what you know what is the actual balance of action and change that can happen and there's a lot of discontent around our institutions our institutions have been too slow our politicians and political systems have at best been incrementalist at best um and you know the frustration is is that we need to have bold change we need to see um things happen quickly um and so this is where I think social movements become more and more important and and you know this is my my answers to people that asked me this you know it just happened to be that my life has moved in this direction but a hundred percent we need to have strong social movements and outside pressure in this moment and so you know whether that's trade unions and strikes whether that's um people taking to the streets and demanding action there needs to be that pressure and let me tell you um I've literally just been selected as a candidate we don't know when the next general election will be I've already started receiving emails from private companies trying to Lobby me and this is you know and that's me right and I'm on the left and you wouldn't expect that they would necessarily Target me but that goes to show just how much our institutions are being captured by these interests and and being constantly lobbied so we need to make sure that we have the balance and not the balance really like much more of a voice of people's interests and so social movements are really really important in understanding that change and I really don't think that change will come from Parliament it will come from outside and outside pressure on Parliament to take action and I I think that's true here and I think that's true in lots of countries I've seen and worked in thanks Fraser Georgia uh yeah first of all good to hear that faiza I'm always really empathic and feeling a lot of proud of everybody that goes to institutional politics and I think that we need we need people willing to do that um I myself served for the government um some years during juma's um one in first and second term at least half of the second term um but I totally agree with faiza I think that you know um it's easier maybe to see the consequences of you know um change in the more local context but I think it's really important that we have this connection between the local and the national in terms of that everything is interdependent and I think that um we at Pokemon we defend a lot that we need communities networked so we really need to you know have a lot of communities that are working with other communities and in this friction between communities in that and networks that you know are learning from you know their own experiences and co-producing politics is what where change comes and I think that institutional diversity thinking about Civil Society we need different forms of organization experimental forms of organization that people actually practice experiment use their creativity in order to think also ways of governance you know of how do we create change among ourselves as well because I think that there's an idealization that you know um at least you know we we tend to think that either the state or the market is going to solve the problems at least this is how uh in some countries that have been we've been created to see you know the state as this big Power Big Mama to that will solve and we are only users or clients but we know also that for a long time now uh or maybe never um the state was for the people right I mean at least if you think about the formation of the nation-state in Brazil you know it's a it's a nation that is based on slavery uh and the fact that you know once you you abolish slavery in Brazil you didn't create any possibility of economic inclusion or Dignity of life or or access to land uh for the people that were brought from Africa um you you know that already that it's not a democracy and it's not a state for everybody it hasn't been since then right so uh we like to think that you know it's not that we want to go back to any other thing but we want to create other forms of representation um and I think that people like faiza or people like Maria Lee Franco who was murdered you know the rainbow sonata's term uh but it was a black uh uh city council that was really important to us they are really important and of course she paid with her own life but she's being honored by a lot of other black women that are now in institutional politics but alone they cannot change anything and I think that is really important and now that Lula is back on power we've been saying that a lot from from the Civil Society perspective that we have to be critical we have to be in dialogue we have to be cooperative and at the same time we also have to be occupying our space without having to say you know excuse me because there is no other way um of creating change rather than you know threatening Civil Society threatening our forms of organization diversifying our forms of organization that they can be sustainable you know and in during [Music] the extreme ride then Center left I mean things Change Is Right we've seen how how fast they can change in Brazil you know we thought we were going One Direction and then suddenly we saw ours in its nightmare and the nightmare is still here as father was saying you know extreme rights is still there so my my thinking is that we have to keep on going making alliances you know um and also always looking from the Civil Society to this day thank you thank you Georgia thank you I know there's so much in what you were saying and I think you know the key points here about the you know the the different um kind of politics and co-production and and I think you know this is something we need to be thinking about that everyone who is on the streets isn't um mobilizing for the same um issues and given and this is my third question given the current fragmented and polarized nature of our politics today in many parts of the world where you know is civil society a space where dialogue can occur or you know is it a side of conflict what role what function does Civil Society play in this you know high level of polarization and I think Brazil is particularly an apt example of this so Georgia over to you yeah um I think that we've seen you know protests from Civil Society from the extreme right in Brazil especially after 2013 they take they took the streets but if you follow the money um you know that it's not you know social movements or like people uh only by the agency but it's also a lot of you know private money being vested uh a lot of private money being invested you know uh extreme rights philanthropy is real and is rising um and also you know evangelic Church they have a lot of power so I think it's really important you know to think about the complexity of you know the layers of polarization uh giving you know um illegal policies of social media and also you know the alliance between you know the Agents of this information with extreme rights and how they manage to be so successful um in in accessing all these tools and really managing them in a form that we have never seen before and I think now progressives and left are now running um to see you know what happened and how you know how can we use these um but I think like at this at the other hand I think Civil Society can play a big role um in creating dialogue so I think one thing that we've seen for example with our care economy project is that when you speak about care for example you know caring for caring for Life caring for the people caring for the the children caring for the elderly this is something that is not left or or right you know uh most of women suffer by you know uh triple Journeys you know reproductive work and you can be evangelic and vote for a bolsonaro and you can be a leftist in a urban center but you're still struggling you know so what we are seeing here is that you know um instead of like tribalizing politics or saying this is oh I'm Lula or I'm bolsonaro can we speak about you know dignity agendas of life you know in practice you know in practice from the communities with the communities you know from the ground so I think this is where uh we can actually um forget about polarization and at least from my experience this is where we're having a bit of success Pfizer yeah I just wanted to pick up actually on on a point as well that I didn't answer in the last question about the kind of local dynamics of this I was just on the tube coming here from my house which is in the constituency that I'm running in and some guys I was like putting on my eyeliner and some guy stopped me and was like oh you're running and you know I do think there's something really important about the fact that um you've got to Target your local political actors and you know I mean a lot of our current MP for instance doesn't live in the area but MPS can live in and around the area and actually anywhere where there's political actors it's really important that Civil Society tries to go straight to them um and um I think holding our political actors account at that very local level even on the tube when they're putting on their eyeliner is you know is is a is a good thing and something we should think about and as part of the kind of experimentation of local democracy as well and on this point about kind of polarizing about the work we do we've been doing at NYU so we work with a number of governments around the world and we look at what policies they can put in place to address inequality and exclusion and it started off as quite a technical project to be honest to looking at um different things they'd put in place and then it expanded a bit to look at how they were communicating some of these things and then something really dramatic happened um really over the last 18 months so is that we kept losing government so South Korea had to pull out of the project because they had a change of government in part because there was a backlash a gen it was around gender what had happened was that there was a divisive narratives that basically said all these girls are taking your job because of gender equality and young men dramatic it was a dramatic difference in how young men and young women voted in that election younger men voted to the to the right because they blamed women for that in Costa Rica we lost the government we were working with because and they had managed to get through gay marriage they've done a lot other good things but they've got through gay marriage and what had happened is that then a narrative started that they're only for the gays they don't care about working-class people don't care about and again we saw it in Sweden as well we lost our government in Sweden um and that was partly because of a very strong islamophobia and anti-immigration and push and by the right and so you know when we talk about polarized societies what we're seeing is this very strong push on divisive narratives and we held a workshop in Spain with this um Spanish Ministry of equality last year and it was amazing to us how many countries wanted to come wanted to share their experiences how much they're struggling how much similarity there were in tactics so yes it's about where the money the the point about Georgia made about the money but it's also about online tactics and there's clearly a global sharing of how to divide our societies that is is happening and the reverse I don't think has happened to the same extent we're just not as organized and and I think you know the role of society when we have these political pressures you know that often um hair included is that when these divisive narratives happen even leaders you know supposedly on the left or Center left they don't really have an answer they don't really have narratives that bring communities together and so in that situation yes Civil Society is really important for creating dialogue it's really important for bringing people together it's really important for putting alternative visions of society that do talk about the connections that we have with each other regardless of gender or race or disability or whatever it may look like um and that is really really fundamental and it's it's really um it's really at the core of why we're not getting the change that we want to see and why we're seeing this kind of seesaw from the left to the very right um in in political systems around the world thanks fight I think it's really interesting that point about you know this funding because actually I mean one of the critiques from the right to the left is that oh you know it's all funded by Soros and that's a global discourse you know I've heard it in the United I mean many places I've done research the United States you've heard it in Russia and Armenia and turkey you hear that Greece so you know but no one really knows about the right wing philanthropy that you're talking about Georgia and I think you know that there is this assumption that it's you know particular actors that are fueling um these Dynamics so I'm I'm looking at the time and I want to bring in our audience but I have one last question and I would prefer to end on a hopeful note um so you know we've talked about the challenges we've talked about you know the the polarization and where change happens um you know the Dynamics between Street politics and institutionalized politics how do you imagine a better world or what does a Utopia look to you you know because this is this is what our topic is it's looking at also the future thinking about utopian futures so faiza I have you down as answering that first big question I mean there's so many things I could list lots of things but I think for me the last few years and I I trained as an economist so I kind of looked at things more from that perspective for a long time but I think there's some for me Utopia is about a reset in our relationships with each other and our respects and dignity in society so the the book and know your place is all about this idea of um social mobility and making it in the world and setting up this idea of making it as being so narrow and often jobs that are not that helpful for society that don't really offer a lot of value and to the rest of us and for me if I'm when I was trying to understand all these years like why are we not seeing the change given where the economics is going given where the the trends and inequality are going and that relationship that ability to do humanize some because they didn't work hard enough or on the basis of their identity is key so for me is key to why we're not seeing change for me the kind of Utopia the switch for me is about um what we do to make sure that um there's no um we kind of checked our snobbery that we're not kind of judging people because they're truck drivers or bus drivers or you know really important jobs in society like care workers they are um paid well they are respected we understand that as a society we need each other you know we had that moment during covid um when we recognize the central workers you know a large proportion of essential workers are on low Pace still on low pay um and that that switch I think would help bring the kind of empathy that we need to change policy as well because the current system our current system of the rat race of this very strong sense of hierarchy in society and that is not going to bring about any kind of Utopia thank you that's really powerful Georgia last word to you before I open it up to the audience yeah um so um because during my time at Atlantic Fellowship I wrote a booklet about Commons now um Latin American spells for Collective action and I think that um uh my work really gives me hope because every day every day I meet people that are building a better life for all um not just for themselves and I think that there are way way more people that are building uh a better word than the ones that are just trying it's just that the destroying ones maybe are louder or you know more powerful sometimes but um what I defend in Commons now is that the word we want to see is happening right now in many places many many places uh every day people build solutions for community life and people wouldn't be alive if it wasn't for that because you know people living really really bad conditions right and I'm not saying that to say oh that let's keep it the way it is but I think that there's no like oh one day we're gonna get there it's like every day is a practice every day we should be expanding our possibility of you know uh doing together um and expanding the horizons of where change is happening and from whom this change is coming so I'm really hopeful Georgia I love talking to you because you you um thank you so much Georgia and and faiza um and I should say Georgia we have copies of your booklet so um we will be handing them out after the event I know you're not here but great so um thank you so much for the insightful discussion I'm now going to open the floor to questions the way I'll do it is I will take one online and one in person each round um so I'm going to look at where's saugat um there you are Saga so Saga I will take one question from you and then I have okay Saga yeah great um so the first question um I don't have a name for it oh it's um Banu dear who asked a question and it is doing the referendum campaign the brexit loppy was much better disseminating information and targeting voters the remain campaign was disordered and did not reach undecided vote as well how can we learn from this experience to counter the far right what can individuals do to resist the far-ride propaganda okay I'll let you think about that while I think hello um I'm Calvin I represent the entrance interests of European guanti which is a non-profit organization dealing with European China relations so my question is a bit more focused on the economic side um obviously there's this notion that the private is very profit maximizing and the public is bureaucratic and slow but Georgia I'm thinking about it in the context of hicks the digital public infrastructure payment system that Brazil has and then the Crux of the question is to better understand to what extent you feel like a public-private partnership is necessary to be able to install social movements and change okay thank you um would you like to go first Liza yeah I mean um I think I think the thing on brexit wasn't just that remain was not good at targeting votes it just had a really weak message um it was about scaring people that the economy is going down and it didn't have any heart in it had no it had no sense of who we want to be as a country um and whereas the argument from the brexit campaign was about did get into values it did get into it tapped into an emotion and I think sometimes too often the kind of technocrats working in policy um and policy making and political campaigns um do go into technical messages and actually are often quite disconnected from people and that's true like and I talk about it in the book about how many spaces I've been in such Elite spaces and complete disconnect whereas actually the brexit campaign had done its homework had gone out and spoken to people and so you know I think that's the thing to learn from is the Grassroots connection is actually understanding where people are at like so there's this really great example of how um there was like a debate somewhere in the country and and one of the remainers said you know started talking about GDP and someone in the audience shouted out that's your GDP and you know just hadn't occurred to them that this is ache on a technical argument and B like it doesn't mean anything to people when they've already felt like economically worse off to be told that this is going to make you worse off because things are already bad um so I think it was just you know wrong like start to end um and I think there's a lot to be learned about lack of um uh emotional communication and values-based communication in that campaign thank you and Georgia you had a question about public-private Partnerships and yeah can I just also just to add them advice is saying I don't know the con the full context of brexit but I can also say just to add to what father said in terms of narrative change and um you know the feeling of you know being with people but also the far right here committed a lot of crimes really a lot of crimes in terms of fake news dissemination so I think that we also have to look from this point of view that you know the ethics is not there at all but there are um like a fine line that I think the left can learn a bit and I think there are some organizations here in Brazil trying to uh engage that and spread this to wider movement of you know how to use it and at the same time I do think that as an individual uh you know you ask how to do that I think you know really engage with with other people you know with communities um and regarding the the question whether like private um private Civil Society relationship right like Alliance um I think that is super necessary uh and uh I think that we I've seen some good experiences of these alliance between you know private sector and social movements um and I think that you know to some extent you know you can't really change unless you actually you know create this Alliance the point is uh um how do we enter in this kind of you know cooperation and and build alliances um from a point of view that you how do we address power imbalance in this relationship that's what I mean and I think at least in Brazil we have seen some um I don't know especially after bolsonarus some people woke up you know some people from the private said woke up like their own responsibility but not by themselves right so you you see like um there's some ngos that are really you know um and social movements are really you know um paying attention um and and and you know going and speaking with the private sector and calling them out for their responsibility so I think it it's important and as it is you know dialogue because I think um the far right is is really really well organized and well funded um and and I think um we need we need to to to to find our Center again right now there's no Center in Brazil Center is gone I think you can say that for many places um so um I will take another question online and then I had yeah okay um yes so a question from uh foreign prospective student from Mumbai India and the question is um about the um follow the money and the funding um discussions that you've already had and it's related to how can individuals be to get more in for hug and individuals get more information and be more aware of the funding and the financials behind politics and social movements and how you see local National and international institutions and accounting for the fact that there may not be one Utopia and that what is the Utopia might be very different depending on who you are and where you are thank you um just mindful of time and how many hands I've seen I'm going to take one more question um right there oh can I can you yeah I thank you for the talk has been super interesting I was wanting to go back to fisa's comments around this disconnect between the left sometimes we're just seen in Italy as well and grassroot movements and I wonder if you have any thoughts on why that has happened and what we can do to rebuild that connection thank you thank you I'm going to let the um speakers go and then I've got one two three four five people on my list in the room I don't know how many are online no more okay so the next ones will be so um last time I started with fisa um Georgia would you like to start us off yeah can you just remind me like generally I think I lost some of the questions um I think maybe you can address the question about you know the Utopias that there isn't one Utopia maybe that's yeah I'll try to address and if I if I not answer let me know um so just um one that I wrote down is they follow the money um I I want just to highlight our next um partners of ours in Brazil they actually got inspired by a us um Collective but the sleeping Giants Brazil they're really big um and they're too uh they were they were too young you know 20 um 20 years old and she he was an Uber driver and she was selling makeup uh in the countryside of the south of Brazil and during pandemic they decided to create a Twitter on flipping Giants and they're they have been really important to follow their money and see you know who is um funding extreme right-wing propaganda so I think it's a a beautiful case of you know activism with you know internet online Etc and um there's some online thing about them sleeping Giants Brazil so I think you know it's really and we we incubate them and also we we hit them during because they were Anonymous and they were being pursued we keep them um in our lab so we have a really nice experience with a story with them um and I think regarding Utopia I would my experience is totally connected to the third question about this connection of the left there is no such thing as one big narrative and I think this has to end I think this is where it led us to the where we are now you know there's no such thing as let's take his mouth and put something back you know what this big you know I know it's important to have big narratives and and you know Etc but my invitation is like how can we um take the road back to diversity of experiences people are so different even if you're like have you know two black women from you know at the same economic level they're gonna be totally different on what they consider uh What uh Utopia what they consider you know possibilities of life so I think it's really important for us to learn how to you know value um diversity from a different perspective so we like to say improve is that you know uh word between the difference is not only possible but necessary so how can we from our differences build many words you know um that that fit in this world you know and I think in the in the booklet that I wrote I tell some of these stories you have many words that fit in this world and this is where I like to see there's no such a of course it's not pragmatic answer but I it's just because I think the answer is not a given and will be not given you know it is on the way you know with our creativity with our bonds you know experimenting that we also will uh through the way thanks Georgia Lisa yeah a few things I mean I just um just to emphasize that we need more work on following the money it takes a lot of time and effort to look into this and it puts people in dangers Georgia was saying so if there's any funders in the crowd you should be looking to fund people to look at this in some depth um because I know there's work Happening by a few groups progressives International in the US and a few places to try and look into this but it does take time and to do the work properly and make sure that you're not going to get into any legal problems which they will try and hit you with you know that it does take some um real effort and time which needs to be funded um I think in terms of the like local National Institution Utopia a couple of things on that um one is actually I just want to emphasize that the international has become so important because um so many of global problems right now are that they're Global they're not actually born of just National issues so of course the cost of living crisis right so Russia invades Ukraine that has all these reverberitations for the rest of the world um you know of course the climate but in general there's so many there's so many issues that are coming that are spilling over borders and so the international actors have become really important yet our multilateral system is completely not fit for purpose um in the last couple years spent a lot of time at the UN and World Bank and IMF looking at just you know failure after failure essentially so um it's important to kind of recognize that that connection and the role that social movements need to play globally and connecting up to make sure that we do have debt cancellation again for instance and we do um push to reform finally the World Bank and the IMF who are at core to actually some of these protests in the world as well you know red riots because of inflation going up and the IMF not supporting in terms of um debt restructuring um I think one I would this might seem a bit contradictory like I completely agree that of course Utopia is not one thing to one person but we did this International polling in 2021 and from countries as diverse as like Costa Rica and Canada and Sierra Leone and and Tunisia and actually there was weirdly like a lot of um consensus around what people are angry about um so a lot of concern around divisions and Society in a way that I I found really striking um in places that I didn't expect um and so there's a lot of anger about corruption and um lack of governments taking action and a lot of anger about the sense of unfairness in tax systems and who's paying taxes um and on the flip side there was also a lot of consensus about what people want to see right so secure housing it was a big thing that came up because actually most governments are failing on this um and that's this is kind of the market thing isn't it as well about leaving it to the market to solve and that not happening there was a lot of consensus around the rich needing to pay more taxes and there's a lot of consensus around needing access to Justice systems so whilst yes Utopia can seem you know the specific sometimes can seem different there is consensus about some key building blocks and it's not rocket science um and that report if you want to look it's on the center on International corporations website it's called from rhetoric to action and it kind of spells out this polling data which was 17 000 people and it really did it was quite dramatic in in how you know countries you wouldn't necessarily put together at different income levels had a lot of consensus about the change they want to see in the world so I can see that you want to ask I think I'm just mindful of time because I was told to end on time so although there's so much to discuss so I'm going to ask all of the people asking questions to keep them brief so the gentleman there in the purple shirt and then um potential in here and then the lady there yes thanks for that my issues the the three in terms of protest frustration and polarization you mentioned there is a deadlock of economic mismanagement globally we have multiple Learners on the one hand and extreme poverty on the other and inequalities that follow despite judges optimism how or possibly when can this reset of the extreme dysfunction and chaos is it physical thank you the reset of extreme dysfunction I think that's a really important question um yes sir can you hear me okay can you hear me no yeah can you hear me yes okay sorry my name is Jose Gallo I'm an Italian and British citizen among other things I'm a political activist in a political Italian political party which has been used in four decades non-violent um Civic disobedience together with presence in Parliament to achieve reforms like divorce abortion and other important issues in Italy as well at the international level with the moratorium of the deaf penalty at the United Nations uh my question is about I mean the current time I mean I think that we should start again from default of Cal polani has developed then down by Daniel Roderick about the relationship between globalization democracy and the national sovereignty is it my question is isn't the time really to rethink from the foundation the welfare stage because we need to respond to all the issues that we are talking about and I think that the Utopia in at least in my opinion is to create a society with where everybody is able to look in the other people's eyes without any sense of a shame if you are not well dressed or with a good job I think that's the lesson from the pandemic as well thank you so the question is about the the welfare state and can we yes hello thank you very interesting talk um Michelle I work here at lse um my question actually it's a bit it's linked to the what the gentleman was saying how do we to bring back a sense of society in our societies are very as you very rightly say very polarized and um and you know we have different experience and I think for out of our capitalism or you know individualism as everybody wants to protest for their own interests which are not the same but how do we bring back a sort of sense that yes we're not the same we might not have the same experience but we we want to live together and um so how do we bring back a sense of society kind of what Georgia was saying how do we create the center that's been lost in all this polarization um I think did I start with Georgia last time so um yeah so the question on economic mismanagement and profound dysfunction is it dysfunction or is it that the way they want it to function right and um I think so I ran in the 2019 election as well and here which was quite now that I think about it and everything that's happened with Boris Johnson and the way the media supported someone like him knowing that he was already you know been sacked two or three times for being a liar knowing that he had written racist articles um you know you really saw the strike the strength of the establishment to act when um they feel that policies potentially are going to hurt the very rich right the policies that are gonna mean more taxes on the rich and how how much The Establishment pushes back so you know in some ways I'm optimistic but having seen that kind of been on the front base in so many media Studios and seeing how people act and how how they come together really made me think that you know of course they've made this system to support themselves and to make sure that that privilege and power and wealth is continued to help to be held at the top and I think that said I think and this is why these sorts of topics are so important the only way we can push back is by right having some very clear ideas about what needs to happen to have some very clear social movements people out on the streets saying look if you don't do these things and we're not going to vote for you or we're not going to you know support this political system anymore like politicians need to be more scared of the people than their establishment interests that are constantly um lobbying them um and I think you know it is possible we've seen it happen in other parts of the world I think weirdly you know with crisis um and continuing crisis in the world in which we're in it does give us that opportunity to offer these ideas because their ideas that they have are not going to deal with these problems at all and so we have to be ready to to come together we have to be ready with the ideas we have to be ready to be really critical um and because we don't have some really important pillars of democracy often not just here but lots of parts of the world like the media um we need to do that work which is a lot to ask people when they're you know working so hard anyway just to make ends meet and but that's the only way I can see it happening um I think on the sense of society the kind of welfare state Point as well you know we're kind of it's a contradiction isn't it the more we need the welfare state the more that it's been demonized and anyone that is on benefit so I start the book talking about why I ran against Ian Duncan Smith who that some of you may know he was the conservative Minister who really pushed on and shrinking our welfare state and from 2010 put a lot of cruel reforms in especially for people with disabilities and which weren't my mum was caught in and it was horrific it was completely dehumanizing it was a complete way in which to treat people with absolutely zero dignity but alongside those policies were every day in the papers where talk of benefit sheets and and this idea of the undeserving poor it's a very strong push on policy and narrative at the same time and we need to make sure I think you know to some extent now they've kind of cast that this Capital term that's been used about being woke right and like oh you you know it's anything that's like Progressive action is like the just the woke mob you know and so we need to again be able to tell our own stories um and point to that to humanize to humanization I think one of the things that does give me hope is that as opposed to 2019 and now when I knock on doors people have realized that they've been lied to much much more people are open to having a different conversation if you don't believe me come and door knock with me um in chingford and Wilford green and that that gives us an opportunity to kind of press and I think again because of the way in which AI is changing and the systems are changing we are going to need we can make that argument for a welfare state there isn't about just the poorest is about the middle class as well and then once you've got that then it's harder to dehumanize um yeah and just in terms of bringing people together I think you know as much as possible it's really important that we mix so I kind of get into this in the book um about intensive care room at their Hospital in the NHS and this mixing across whatever you might vote whatever your race and the Very just understanding of the very basics of human empathy like we all hurt when a loved one dies and we all you know that just it sounds really cheesy but it's just those basic things that we have to remember that in most ways we're the same we care about and we hurt in the same ways about similar similar things I mean that's humanity and and that also needs to be extended to people that are coming from abroad that don't look like us right so it's not just Ukrainian refugees as refugees of um all different um races um to make sure that we it is really about human empathy and the amount and that's on all of us to do that work absolutely I think it goes back to George's point about you know caring it doesn't matter if you're voting for whom you still have those responsibilities um I'm mindful of time so Georgia you're going to be the LA you know your comments and then I'm going to wrap up the event sorry to everyone who I didn't have questions Okay so the question of uh how can we have a sense of society I was thinking about who is we right and I think that um I would like to call in uh with us Denise Silva that is a Brazilian sociologist but she lives in U.S um and she has a book that is unpayable that um where she proposed the end of the world as we know it and and the destruction of the legal and economic structure that sustains colonialism and colonialismir is not I understand there's a moment in space and time you know that we learn in history books but it's really a Timeless form that continues in operation and that cares within that raciality right and I think that we um this is not a flaw or Distortion of the system but it's a political symbolic property that structures Western modernity itself and how we understand the state and democracy and Etc and I think we really need to put our imagination back you know at service of ourselves of understanding other ways of inhabiting this world um um there is a potential of like a blue reversal uh comments that within coloniality that is structurally structurally committed to eliminate different um you know the the sis atro patriarcho you know white Europeans uh I mean as a symbolism right not uh I'm saying you or as a person but what it symbolizes you know the raciality of the you know uh the western state I think I think we shouldn't be you know um putting that on the side it's at the center of this dispute also at the Rooney the ruining itself of you know the so-called you know welfare state so I think that um if the coloniality the economics of colonialities that have a total violence and a permanent exploration of bodies and land and labor and dehumanization of a big you know part of the population right as non-humans that don't deserve to live um you know uh how can we then offer you know where we should we be looking at to find you know the Commons in the community right you know why is evangelic church Rising so much you know people want to be together right everybody needs to belong to belong so how can we create the commons and communities you know um and and exercise our interdependence so I think this is why we should be looking and then at maybe in this way we can go back to understand who is we when we speak about we thank you Georgia I think that's a really good way of ending here apologies again to those who I couldn't get to your questions I want to thank faiza and Georgia for such a fascinating discussion which I hope you all enjoyed for the in-person attendees um the stewards will have copies of Georgia's report Commons now Latin American spells for collection action which you can collect and you also have an opportunity to purchase a copy of Pfizer's new book know your place which you will be signing right okay and there are lots of exciting events happening later today at the lse festival so please do take a copy of the program if you haven't gotten one already since I am based at the international inequalities Institute I will give a shout out for a couple of our events one is this is not America why black lives in Britain matter which is taking place at 12 30 so shortly after this event and what would a fairer Society look like which is happening this evening at six so please if you would join me in thanking both of our speakers thank you thank you

Channel: LSE

Views: 1,350

Keywords: LSE, London School of Economics and Political Science, London School of Economics, University, College

Id: 7JiWM6Z_vcc

Length: 58min 33sec (3513 seconds)

Published: Sat Jun 17 2023