Gun Gripes #268: "The Myth of Stopping Power" with Mrgunsngear

welcome back everybody this is eric here with iraq veteran 8888 today got another gun gripe episode for you i got my good friend here mr guns and gear mike great dude one of my favorite people he's going to be joining me here as my guest for this particular one and we are going to be discussing the stopping power myth okay a lot of people hear you know that term thrown around and they don't really know quite what to make of it they don't really understand that it is a sort of a trifecta of things that must occur in order for that to really even be a thing or to even make sense so we're going to dive into that with some of our favorite cartridges but before we do you have to stop what you're doing and go subscribe to mike's channel mr guns and gear check him out on facebook over there on the gram for some of our hilarious exchanges thanks for joining us absolutely that's just uh good life advice right there i recommend it absolutely thanks for having me so yeah we're going to get into this so not all cartridges are made equal um and people throw around this stopping power thing and there's sort of some formulas that you can use to determine you know what a cartridge is in theory capable of doing right you know we have foot pounds of energy calculations you know we can take the bullet we know how much a bullet weighs we know how fast it's moving therefore we know how much energy it is um generating but energy calculations are only going to get you part of the way there are other things to consider such as bullet construction uh many many things wounding characteristics oh yes absolutely all right so we'll kind of start maybe on the small end work our way up absolutely so with a 22 uh obviously energy's pretty darn low um depending on the round in the barrel you're gonna get somewhere around 100 foot pounds of energy but the 22 is a very lethal round um it's you know often underestimated but it's lethal to people so you have to treat it as such so most people use it though for like varmint hunting or just target practice um but it has the capability to stop someone if you will oh yeah and i believe too that on the 22 front one interesting point that people need to remember is there's a ton of different bullet designs there's expanding projectiles there's fragmenting projectiles there's tracer projectiles solids uh copper plated solids lead solids subsonic heavies lights 20 grain calibris you name it there are so many different varieties of 22 all of which can fulfill a very specific job and that's what makes a 22 such a versatile rifle to own especially a little bolt gun with a can or something you can do a lot with it and um you know yes shot placement is important right i mean how many people have a crazy uncle or grandfather that told you back in the day that they shot plenty of deer with a 22 and killed them lots of crazy uncles have said that right and we always wonder okay is that just bull crap you know is uncle jasper just you know bragging about that just to do it the the answer i think is kind of somewhere in the middle right many hunters would consider it obviously not only it's not only illegal to shoot a deer with a 22 long rifle uh many would consider it to be unethical but when you're growing up in the south in the sticks and you're poor and you're not going to eat otherwise and all you got is grandpa's 22 magnum well you know we're not going to discuss whether or not that is a correct thing to do but understand that shot placement is extremely important right and as all as we discuss the power levels of all these cartridges and start kind of going down the line and discussing the differences between rifles and and shotguns and handguns it's important to remember that shot placement will end be the end-all do-wall of any cartridge you can have the most powerful cartridge in the world but if it grazes the intended target or doesn't hit a vital organ uh that target has the potential to uh still harm you if that's what they're trying to do or run away so for sure yeah so we'll get into our first centerfire cartridge we're going to move up to nine millimeter you like the pointer oh yeah i like the bayonet i got to watch out i don't want to stab someone with this thing the mosin bayonet that's fine but we got our nine millimeter uh popular sub gun cartridge has been in use a long time and for good reason you know light recoil very easy to manage generous capacity a wide variety of different bullet designs um gold recoil low recoil fantastic recoil and uh nine millimeter pccs have made quite a splash in recent years the last five years they've blown up absolutely but it's probably the most common pistol caliber in america um so there are a lot of documented shootings with it right both on people and animals so it gets the job done again provided shot placement is there that's right and i love the fact that there's been so many excellent bullet designs that have been uh came up with for the nine millimeter right nine millimeter gets a bad wrap because you know there wasn't always a time where we had these great expanding bullets and really good modern propellants that can push the velocities a little faster without increasing the pressure so pressure is always going to be a limitating factor to not only a firearm design but to a cartridge design so as propellants are are advancing you are able to get better velocity but with not generating as much pressure in some cases we're getting better velocity with less pressure than the lower performing powders we're giving to begin with so that really puts some of the other smaller cartridges in nine millimeters such as 32 acp and 380 acp into a situation where they're more viable for defense now than they ever were because of the increased uh bullet design the better bullet designs and the powder choices the nine millimeter really gets a bad rap post 1986 right the miami shooting um where it didn't perform well but those bullets and those powders are obsolete now yep what's out there today it's so much better that's right so that's night and day difference important to remember because as we get down the line here we're going to step into some murky waters in that regard so we're going to step up to america's hard hitter and that is the 45 acp 45 acp is generally a relatively slow cartridge but uses a heavy bullet so we're getting into our first slow and dumb cartridge of the group um so there's a paradigm here that exists if something is lightweight and small in order to get um the wounding and damage potential you've got to push it faster and faster to get that foot pounds of energy where you want it right that's why 556 is like basically a 22 on steroids but when you get something that's heavy that's moving slow all right you're getting somewhere we're going to get into stuff that's heavy and fast and that's where you really get interesting but 45 acp serves our military you know obviously extremely well through you know two war wars i mean that's the common thing gets thrown around but yeah no it performs well terminally um you're gonna get similar in terms of stopping power uh to nine millimeter with good bullet selection um but capacity is a little bit less because it's a larger case so that's one thing thing to think about and it doesn't do as well against like intermediate barriers like glass and things like that as a nine millimeter wood correct um i'll mention something about 45 as well in the thompson like you know during world war ii and you've got a sub gun shooting 45 acp if we just simply look at these two projectiles right a ball round and a nine millimeter versus a ball round on the 45 now this one's got a little bit flatter of a metal pad you know the the point of this bullet is a little flatter than a ball round you would have seen in world war ii but because of the surface area of the projectile i know you guys have heard the term well a nine millimeter might expand but a 45 doesn't shrink okay it is a large bullet it is a large bullet so even if it doesn't expand i think that it's got its good wrap and its ability to stop threats up close because of its sheer frontal energy because you've just got a physically larger projectile for sure and there's states that you can't use hall points in other countries as well so if that's the case then that size does matter absolutely so 45 you know was created out of a need to defend soldiers and sailors and marines from uh doped up enemy combatants that's why it was created so and it did quite well with that uh the 38s they were using just weren't cutting it no guy would you know be doped up on opium and start running at you with a machete in the pacific and you know they're right in front of you and what are you going to do you know you got a right six rounds with a 38 special with ball ammo it's a 50 50 shot yeah this this did much better at you know people up close as a defensive firearm 45 acps you know definitely gets it's good wrap deservingly that's okay it's a good cartridge all right we're going to move on to another one 44 magnum now 44 magnum is cool because this is our first magnum offering which you know basically you've got a lot more powder than a standard pistol cartridge but what's cool about 44 magnum is when you get it in a shorter barrel it's still pretty amazing like out of a six inch 44 mag revolver you're getting oh so great but where the rubber really meets the road with this cartridge is when you throw it in like a lever action with a 16 inch barrel and you get a massive velocity game yep huge um it's pushing rifle velocities like gary just said yeah 44 magnum's not a joke and uh when i was a young man maybe 15 16 years old the first two or three deer that i shot in my lifetime i shot the 44 magnum and i didn't use a revolver i used a ruger deerfield carbine and most of my shots were between you know 90 and maybe 130 yards with a ruger deerfield and uh and dropped them like a sack of potatoes they don't make that gun anymore do they i don't believe so they do two different versions of the deerfield one is like a little rotary magazine fed version and the early ones use a tubular magazine that's the one you want you want the tubular gun a little bit better than the magazine fed gun in my humble opinion i digress all right we're going to get into our first dedicated rifle cartridge the the ever popular 556 and uh you and i both have experience with this cartridge in a variety of uh sure situations yeah tons um in getting into rifle cartridges the big difference is going to be velocity um because bullet weight for example in 556 is less than you know 45 acp let's say but wounding characteristics are just devastating because of the speed um when it hits flush you know water has nowhere to go so the expansion is just nasty in terms of like a temporary stretch cavity yep when we look at let's say a projectile that is in a standard 22. so this is a 45 grain subsonic projectile this is what we consider to be a little bit heavy for caliber for 22. most of your 22s or 40 grains but when you look at a standard ball round that might be in a 55 to 62 grain uh realm and a 556 okay another area that you get into the rifle cartridge is also chamber pressure okay that's why there are limitations in gun designs as to which guns can shoot which cartridges okay so obviously you know you're talking a good bit more pressure in a rifle cartridge over getting into some of the handgun cartridges although i will say i mean a 44 mag is definitely a high pressure handgun round because it's in the magnum class you know you start lobbing 460 smith and wesson magnum 500 magnum some of the larger big bore 454 yes you can certainly get into some high pressures and handguns too uh but generally rifle cartridges are going to generate a lot more pressure um this is a 175 grain match king loaded up in a federal gold medal match and a 308 and that's got an open tip this is open tip match right so that's going to impact how it performs on the target as well another thing to keep in mind absolutely so with 30 cal you definitely get stepping up on the uh you know not only the case capacity you've got a lot more powder here stepping up to a 762 308 class here and we're sticking primarily with american cartridges here we are going to get into a few ford ones um but the 30 cal is great and i hate to say this all right this is going to kill me to say this it pains me to say this but with the advent of six millimeter creedmoor 6'5 creedmoor the 308 is always going to have its use because so many guns in our military zimto were still chambered in it like our machine guns and stuff but the 65s outclassed this by far absolutely both in terms of uh flatness when they shoot um as well as terminal performance yeah yeah i think the swedes had it right yeah a long time ago they had it right they did they they figured it out you know in 1896. yep you know or when did when did they start issuing their mousers like 1898 or and 99 yeah so 1900 yeah long time ago the swedes you know they had their six six five by 55 and they were one of the first militaries to really truly get it right the six five by 55 swedish is still in use and people hunt moose with them bear all kind of large animals to great effect i like 308 i enjoy it but it does i mean 800 to a thousand yards if you've got a good gun a thousand yards is about where it tops out and if you don't have wind wind will push that caliber around a lot but um in terms of lethality versus five five six it's definitely a step up you know in terms of stopping power especially at the distances uh especially in a gunfight distances where uh you know enemy combatants and soul you know soldiers shoot at each other on the battlefield uh the 308 is definitely a step up in uh lethality over the uh over the five five six and it's gonna do much better in barriers as well absolutely absolutely um been in use a long time been around i mean uh so the first uh first war we used 308 in was nam yes yes because in korea they were using 1919's yeah interesting so our thirty all six now that's a whole other story we won't go there but three all six is no slouch either i will mention briefly that with the thirty all six you get case capacity in that for reloading purposes that are almost uh kind of getting into 300 win mag territory which is pretty impressive all right now we're going to get into our first match up here and this is cool we've got a 450 bushmaster a 458 socom and a 4570 so how are these cartridges related so they're all pretty similar in terms of performance uh both the 450 bushmaster and 458 socom are modern versions of what the 4570 was attempting to do back in the day so these of course are designed for semi-automatic firearms generally speaking the 4570 isn't but they are hard-hitting calibers particularly up close so within 100 yards they absolutely deliver a lot of energy on target oh yeah back in the day even with black powder propellants uh in the 4570 buffalo hunters used uh you know they're they're long rifles for great feats of accuracy out to extended ranges so 4570 has been in use by you know hunters and sportsmen and soldiers for a long long time uh 4570 is great but it doesn't lend itself due to its overall length and its rimmed case to being you know fed in an sem automatic so that's why you have things like 458 socom and 458 bushmaster uh therefore i'm sorry 450 bushmaster uses a 452 diameter projectile so it's a little bit smaller projectile whereby the 458 socom is a true 458. correct and one thing to note on the uh bushmaster as well is that there are certain states that mandate uh straight wall cartridges that has it that's an excellent point yeah so because the 458 socom is a necked cartridge it may not be legal in in places where they require a straight wall so there's a lot of like needs that get met by certain cartridges and the way they're developed um we see a very similar paradigm in the 350 legend and that's a great cartridge and we're making dominoes here and just one thing to think about with all three of those calibers is that they drop fast when you get out beyond like 150 yards so they're close in caliber for sure and you're also talking a heck of a lot of energy so i'll discuss this paradigm sort of quickly right if we take something i mentioned it earlier but if we take something lightweight and we get it moving really fast it's devastating as mike said if we get something heavy and we get it moving fast it's double devastating absolutely because that weight is the big big part of it uh that takes that energy calculation right and really drives it up the wall crazy when you get something heavy moving fast that's when you get into big bore stopping rifles and the 45-70 ladies and gentlemen is the in sort of in my opinion the entry to that okay you start getting into 458 winchester magnum 458 lot some of the larger safari cartridges where you get big and heavy and it's moving fastest crap and it is absolutely devastating they are for sure one thing to note there too before moving on is like like i said rifle wounding characteristics versus pistol so there's a sliding scale depending on bullet weight of where that velocity is but generally speaking around 2000 foot pounds of energy you tend to get really devastating temporary stretch cavities you don't see that road pistols so oh yeah something they just don't have the velocity yeah maybe a 44 mag you know on a deer 50 yards out of a rifle yeah you're going to get into very similar wounding characteristics of what you expect of a full-blown rifle cartridge um i will mention too that not all 4570s are created equal okay so please don't put a modern 4570 load in a trapdoor an old trapdoor you'll only do it once you'll only do it once okay do not put a ruger number one load in a trap door boys and girls okay we're going to move on to a couple of shotgun rounds now i've got a 410 here this is a 410 golden bear slug and this is mainly for size comparison uh to our 12 gauge here this is a duplex broadhead hexlet 32 expanding steel slug and they are absolutely devastating on game 12 gauge shotguns if when you talk about just a pure energy dump shotguns are not really made to shoot like super long distances but what they do in close distance they do so well that i have become such a proponent for some auto shotguns i absolutely love them some people are intimidated by shotguns and rightly so because they generally going to generate more recoil for sure they're harder to shoot they're harder to load under stress they are harder to use it takes in my opinion the most time to master a shotgun than any other gun yeah um but that said in terms of stopping power i watch a lot of videos of shootings i've you know seen some in person hunting etc um in terms of one shot stop i think 12 gauge is the most reliable in that if you put it within you know chest cavity people stop shooting it's just it's what it is an animal stop moving yep and that's part of it i mean 12 gauge been around a long time and just like uh the 4570 and other sort of antiquated cartridges that have made their way into the modern world uh we wind up seeing situations where obviously with modern projectile designs such as this wonderful hexalit and obviously you know modern propellants and wads and all of the components that make up a shotgun cartridge have just advanced greatly over the old school black powder paper shells the flight control rods today are just awesome in terms of keeping that wad tight yes the spreadside excuse me buckshot is more accurate velocities are greater patterns are better right um you know slugs perform better right in the old day like a a forster style slug that's just like a one ounce rifled keyed slug great slug design they're wonderful but they pale in comparison to like some of the offerings from uh bernicki and duplex and even the modern uh federal true ball slugs shoot way better than that than a traditional foster slave absolutely so the 410 we showed for uh comparative sake but i think these are like 90 grain slugs and they still kick hard um i want to say the energy that these um three-inch slugs are are giving out of a 410 shotgun you might remember the little uh 14-inch 410 that we put the brace on did the video on and um we shot a few of these and they they got a little bit of recoil they kick and the energy is is pretty good even for a 410 so again a 410 is a tiny shotgun show as i say i have a jail test of a 410 buckshot on my channel and the stuff performs you know when you get it coming out of a shotgun length barrel it's delivering a lot of energy for you know relatively like recall compared to the 12 gauge absolutely so the benefit that you get over a large bore you know 12 gauge going down range it's not don't think it's a series of diminishing returns okay a 20 gauge has a really nice velocity paradigm to weight paradigm in terms of the way that you know 20 gauge is a great defensive shotgun if you can find defensive ammo in 20 now you're going to be a little more limited on 410 and 20 gauge for defensive purposes the 12 gauge just tends to be sort of the hero because there are so many defensive rounds available in a 12 gauge and it's sort of become the industry standard and for good reason the payload is exceptional if i take a one and three eighth ounce slug moving at sixteen hundred seventeen hundred feet per second we are generating boys and girls we are generating some energy read my lips energy energy like terry crews power like it's straight up power that's what it is i think in a lot of ways the modern 12-gauge loadings have made the 10-gauge somewhat obsolete yes absolutely that's probably gonna generate some comments okay we're gonna we're gonna move on to one little tiny thing before we before we go on and i chose the cartridges for last for a reason all right this is a 577 450 martini henry now when i show this to people folks are like holy crap that could shoot down a plane you know they look at it and they see this big cartridge and this big old projectile and they think man that's got to be the most powerful thing ever um looks can be deceiving that's the the last paradigm is just because a cartridge is physically large and has a lot of case capacity and a big old honking bullet now granted again we get into that paradigm this cartridge is moving slow but it's heavy so that's where it gets its energy now this is black powder only you don't shoot smokeless out of this so despite this cartridge being physically large because it is black powder it is going to be extremely limited on the amount of power we can physically get out of this cartridge okay there's something to think about and then likewise we get into the 50 bmg what's the silver tip it's just a i don't know api i think this is just api and i think they're like between 690 grains or so they're on the heavy end maybe 650 to 700 grains and then the a max's can get up into 750 grains um all of 50 bmg is is a scaled up 30 all 6. you go from 30 cal to 50 cal it is a scaled up 30.6 it's a nasty round it's delivering a lot of energy it's a great barrier penetrator um i mean there's not a lot that you'd want to stop at a 50 can't stop that's king of the hill right there it is it is this is the culmination of what i said in that trifecta heavy weight lots of powder behind it a good strong gun that can handle it and you've got an you've got a recipe for success if what you must do is stop what it is that is in front of you man or beast or machine or barrier or earth it will do it 338 lapu is a great cartridge as well um kind of like the you know the 308 has been outclassed in some ways by the six mils 338 for long distance shooting kind of outclasses the 50 in my opinion but again both will do it well so i agree and i think it's also worth mentioning before we uh let you guys go for the day that um barrett came out with a cartridge called the 416 barrett so it's a neck down 50 cal to the 416 very very good performance and it's worth noting our friends at shy tech have their 408 shy tac so 408 is a completely different animal we won't go into that it's almost worth its own episode uh we'll get into that in a future video but 408 for long distance right now it's like oh my gosh it's the king of the hills it's awesome yeah one thing to note too on the 416 is that if you live in california you can own it bingo so both guns that are chambered in 50 they make versions in 416 for folks in california that was barrett's um sort of middle finger to california that was that's why it was designed yeah and and i have a lot of respect for ronnie barrett and their family for doing that um it costs them probably a metric ton of money to develop the cartridge to sammy spec the cartridge to test the rifles the r d trust me it's not cheap to field you know design a gun like a barrett in a different cartridge um now i'm a little maybe a little selfish i would love to see a 107 or similar type of action in 408 shy attack oh yeah that would be interesting uh yes sir and on that note uh we're going to let you guys go now there's tons of cartridges these are not all of them but we wanted to sort of discuss some of our viewpoints on stopping power and the myth of stopping power and to kind of bring this whole point together for the end of the video there is definitely a multi-faceted aspect to what a cartridge can do you must have good shot placement you must hit a vital organ you must have a cartridge that is capable of hunting uh whatever your game might be uh be it two-legged game or or or four-legged or or no shoulders or more than eight legs or eight legs doesn't matter what your game might be you choose an appropriate cartridge that is designed to do the job and you provide a proper shot and you're generally going to come away looking pretty good yep no i agree if you have those three things it'll generally work out absolutely guys thanks so much for tuning in today's video we hope you enjoyed it and maybe learned a little bit of something i know we got a lot of new gun owners out there uh this is all basic knowledge guys you've got to know this stuff this is part of being a gun owner is understanding these are the tools of the trade and the cartridges are just imagine having a car that could take like a million different types of gas and whatever car whatever gas you put in your vehicle would determine how it performed that's kind of like choosing a cartridge right you know you don't go squirrel hunting with this you could well there are videos of people shooting groundhogs with these yeah i digress it's not gonna be much less but you also wouldn't go buffalo hunting with this yeah so there are different cartridges for different purposes guys go and subscribe to mike mr guns and gear here great dude one of my favorite youtubers i'm glad he's here with me today and we really appreciate the support go over to ballisticking pick yourself up a snazzy t-shirt uh we greatly appreciate that absolutely have a great day mike thanks for hanging out thanks for having me man all right brother many more videos on the way see you next [Music] time you

Channel: Iraqveteran8888

Views: 551,320

Rating: 4.9234614 out of 5

Keywords: iraqveteran8888, iv8888, ar15, ar, ar-15, ar 15, 2a, freedom, liberty, gun rights, gun control, top 5 guns, top 5, meltdown, guns, gunsmithing, gun gripes, life liberty and the pursuit, stopping power, terminal energy, terminal ballistics, ft lbs of energy, mrgunsngear, 22lr, 50bmg, 308, 556, two world wars, 45 acp, one shot stopping power, one shot stop

Id: Ezpo2culvkE

Length: 28min 23sec (1703 seconds)

Published: Mon Nov 30 2020