Hey guys, this is John welcome back to Spectrum Real quick, just want to let you know we have a new episode of our podcast, "Radical Empathy" It features an interview with Calvin who is in this episode of Spectrum We talked about what it was like to grow up in a polygamous family And we also kind of just dive into the larger idea of mental caves and what it's like to leave those caves I know you have some time on your hands in this kind of new Coronavirus reality so sit down put in some earbuds, give it a listen. Very strange time in the world right now, but we appreciate you supporting our content. Stay safe out there Thank you. I thought the world, I thought the world outside was the evil place and we were the ones that were the good ones A number of students who are in my classroom are, in old language, a couple thousand years ago, disciples. [FEMALE VOICE-OVER] We thought we were joining a movement to make the world better [MALE VOICE-OVER INTO VIDEO] When are you gonna wake up with this precious opportunity? [MALE VOICE IN BOTTOM RIGHT] [yells unintelligibly] [TOM CRUISE CHUCKLES] [WOMAN IN VIDEO] I've come to view what happened to me is a viral mimetic infection. [R. KELLY] What'd you call it here. um, a cult? [INTERVIEWER] Mhm. I don't really know what a cult is, but I know I don't have one. [CALVIN VOICE-OVER] I grew up as a Mormon Fundamentalist. I was in it for 30 years. I have one dad four moms, and I'm one of 45 kids. [JODI VOICE-OVER] My parents and I had some difficulty... I was sent away to a Southern Baptist fundamentalist reform school. It was a very extreme environment. [BENJAMIN VOICE-OVER] I was born into the Tony and Susan Alamo Christian Foundation. After realizing that I was lied to my whole life, I needed to escape. [SHELLY VOICE-OVER] I was in a Gurdjieff Group for a little over 15 years that I got into and I was 22. [WILL VOICE-OVER] Right out of college when I was 22 I got involved in a meditation group. The Guru turned out to be very negative and narcissistic and I was in for 22 years. [JOHN, OFF CAMERA] "I didn't know I was in a cult." 3... 2... 1... Go. [Footsteps] [JOHN, OFF CAMERA, WHISPERING] Oh my goodness. [WILL, LIGHTLY] We didn't call it a cult.
[BENJAMIN, QUIETLY]: Yeah. [WILL] I Certainly didn't join a cult.
[SHELLY] No, not at all. [WILL] But, I knew it was unorthodox. So I knew it wasn't mainstream. [JODI] Well, mine was called a "reform school." So it was labeled something quite different, right. [BENJAMIN] Yeah. Mine was labeled a "Foundation", a "Christian Foundation". [SHELLEY] Yeah, and mine was an extension of, uh... Artistic training, or, *a* training... I just thought it was an outgrowth of that. [CALVIN] When you're in it, like it's like it's invisible. You don't know-- [WILL] Well, that's your life. I mean, you were born in it. [CALVIN] That's part of it. Yeah, when you're born in it, and that's all you've done-- I mean, I still don't use that the strong language of a "cult" I don't think it's productive for the people that are there because they get defensive But yeah, certainly if you're in it, and it's what you're doing in your day to day I think they truly do believe that this is a better way We truly are God's people or we truly are doing something good in the world And I think that's one of the reasons you can get in those mental thought traps. [CALVIN VOICE-OVER] I think it's really easy to blanket-state say that someone is quote-unquote "brainwashed". The deepest win that could come from this is empathy. Maybe for people in it, but also for the people outside of it, too. [JOHN, OFF-CAMERA] "I entered the cult voluntarily". 3... 2... 1... Go. [JODI] Wait, I-I'm wrong here, I'm sorry. I thought I was on the other-- Let me go over here. [Laughs] I'm sorry. [BENJAMIN] Why... why are you moving?
[JODI] Because I was forcibly put into the place that I was that.
[BENJAMIN] Oh, okay. [WILL] Well, maybe I'm wrong maybe I should be here I guess, 'cause I walked in the door! I don't think anyone joins a cult really on purpose. [BENJAMIN] Right, that is so true. [WILL] So I think... yes, I volunteered but it wasn't what I thought it was, and so... What I got into, I think with a lot of people, it's like, they don't tell you everything. You don't know what you're doing... yet. And so yeah, you you willingly start something, but you don't call it a cult. [SHELLEY] I lived in New York City, but I was in LA for only six months but you could not walk down the street without a Hari Krishna, without a Moonie, without a Scientologist, and I was really curious so I went to all of them. So this one seemed more... intellectually rigorous, it seemed connected to the studying I was doing. And then... when I was 19, so it was about two or three years before, I took Acid, so that's why I was so curious and I was so confident that I could question popular culture. But I was very much-- I was really young and from Michigan. So what do I know about these, y'know? [JODI] So for me, for my experience, I would say my parents had absolutely no idea the experience I was going to experience and they voluntarily placed me there. However, I didn't know. I was surprised as we drove up, and, the eight-foot fence with, uh, y'know, it was electrified, barbed wire, y'know. And so it was extreme for me.
[WILL] How old were you? [JODI] I was 17 years old. It was the day after my 17th birthday. [WILL, QUIETLY] Because of... bad conduct? Is that... type of thing? [JODI] *Sigh* Y'know, there was a lot of dysfunction in my house and uh, y'know, I acted out because of it. I had been molested - by an outside source - and so I was just trying to negotiate childhood, you know? And my parents really didn't know what to do with me. [JODI VOICE-OVER] My parents had no idea the abuses that took place, so when I got out of there. I was afraid of the world I was afraid of people. I started my nonprofit to help adults who were subject to this type of abuse as children. [JOHN, OFF-CAMERA] "I have fond memories from my time in the group." 3... 2... 1... Go. [BENJAMIN] I had about 300 siblings that were anywhere from you know, ten years younger than me to ten years older than me We knew each other inside and out. I grew up in Arkansas and a 300 acre compound with horses, you know, ponies, cows, peach orchards, It was awesome. It was a good time. [CALVIN] When you have 44 brothers and sisters and you're all living in the same house It's the best of times, you have your brothers-- your best friends that are brothers and sisters, and having four moms?! I think, from my experience. I'll speak for me. I know I can't speak for other people here. It was 96 percent frickin' awesome. It's really easy to just poopoo on it and say every single experience I ever had was absolutely horrible And I think it's a it's a point to own. [WILL] That's actually the hardest thing to... to...
[CALVIN] It is! [WILL] To separate.
[CALVIN]: Totally!
[WILL] Yeah, it's like you don't want to throw the baby out- It's your life, right? You don't want to say "my life was a waste", you know, so How do you find how do you how do you pick out the gold?
[CALVIN] Yeah. [JODI] So I have a different experience, obviously.
[CALVIN] Yes. [JODI] I was, uh, locked in the environment, I was not able to go. And so I had no choice in the matter and it was horribly abusive. I was locked in a closet, uh... I was demeaned, belittled. There was sleep deprivation, food deprivation. When I came out of there, I was so broken. And in when kids get taken to these places that are extreme environments... This is what happens. [BENJAMIN] Mine, I was also locked in on a compound But we were surrounded by forests there wasn't anywhere to go. [JODI] Well, yeah, most of these places are isolated, out in the middle of nowhere, yes. [BENJAMIN] And we also had a system where everyone reported on each other. We'd also lived in constant fear of being ratted on. But the Bible was what was used-
[JODI] Aha, that's true.
[WILL] --as the gauge to tell you-- and... Beatings, forced fastings...
[WILL, QUICKLY AND QUIETLY] ...any sexual abuse? [BENJAMIN] Yes, sexual abuse. [JODI] So how could you, I mean, so in your mind Rationalizing the "good times" that you had to the "extreme times", I don't understand how-- [BENJAMIN] I know! Because those times were so bad, but they were not... it was what-- it was what I was used to. [WILL] It's what kept you there.
[BENJAMIN] Yeah, it's all I knew. And I thought--
[CALVIN, UNDERNEATH] Well, the prompt-- [JODI] So you became acclimated to the environment, not that it was good-- [BENJAMIN] I thought the world outside was the evil place and we were the ones that were... the good ones. [BENJAMIN VOICE-OVER] I'm here to not only tell my story as much as I can, but also let the world know that the trauma that cults can inflict on their members, that there's a life afterwards. [JOHN, OFF-CAMERA] "My leader had good intentions". [BENJAMIN EXHALES AUDIBLY] 3... 2... 1... Go. [BENJAMIN] Whew, oh man. [JODI] *Laughs nervously* I'm not sure. [WILL] Ack! I'll give it to 'em. *Laughs*
[BENJAMIN, RELUCTANTLY] Yeah. [JODI] I think it started out as good but not when I was there.
[WILL] So you somewhat agree. [BENJAMIN] Yeah, it's "somewhat". That's why we're here.
[WILL] We're just a little bit "agree". Yeah. [BENJAMIN] Okay. I got to move. So I'm-- I'm moving because when we were in the group, we thought the intentions were good, but when I got out I learned that they had criminal records
[WILL] Ah, yeah. [BENJAMIN] And that their... they had motives that had nothing to do with what they... claimed they were. [WILL] Well I'd be over there.
[BENJAMIN] Yeah I'm probably gonna move, even over-- [SHELLEY] Come on over here, Benjamin.
[WILL] On to the dark side.
[BENJAMIN] I'm gonna disagree, not quite-- [SHELLEY] All the way over! [BENJAMIN] Not quite, because there's a human element, in that all humans err. and so I got to give it to them that they probably wanted to improve their personal lives and I don't see being selfish as bad as long as it's not stepping over and hurting other people to get to those desired ends. [JODI] I think I'm going to move over here. The "troubled teen" industry is an industry that has secular programs - wilderness boot camps, boarding schools, rehabilitation centers; the idea is you send your kid to this place to "get fixed". It's a million dollar industry in Utah alone. And so I don't think when people start these things, it's about the child. I think it's about the money. [CALVIN] I think it's important to clarify: if anybody searches "Mormon fundamentalism" that why I'm not on the exact opposite end Is that there are different sects of Mormon fundamentalism. Like if I was part of Warren Jeffs' group, that infamous-- he's in jail for life. Like, I would be clear over there. The people that I know I think they actually believed it. And so my thing is, I think they were sincere. But the ultimate conclusion I came to is just because you're sincere doesn't mean you can't be sincerely wrong. [SHELLEY] When I left, My mind was more with all those people Who they got an elevated social status, they would travel around the world. They were treated like royalty And so if they ever left the group or questioned, they would lose this like privileged life they were having. So it wasn't just the leader. It's almost like he exported his own selfishness. [BENJAMIN] That is such a good point. In my case I was I was born into the group and I was raised by my cult leaders and used as an example of how to be. And whenever a child did something wrong it was Compared to me it would Benjy have done this and the child would usually say no Okay. Well then give him 40 swats. When someone tries to use a child as leverage Against other people and to manipulate a child to do their bidding. It shows their true intentions It shows that they are not well-intentioned [SHELLEY] Come on over here! [BENJAMIN] Yeah, I'm going to have to jump over... [SHELLY VOICE-OVER] When you're young and Something seems like a good idea or mindfulness You want to throw your whole shoulder into it and then you don't realize that there are a lot of other Maybe older people a little bit older than you that will completely hijack your essence [JOHN, OFF-CAMERA] "I did things that I regret." Three, two one, go. [BENJAMIN] I was manipulated as a child, so I kind of want to step back maybe to like Somewhat a I'm like in between here and there but in reality I feel bad But I didn't I wasn't a consenting adult [JODE] I wasn't an adult and I was made to do these things and they haunt me to this day because I was Leveling up in the system, right? I had been broken and So I bought that what they were selling and so I became what they called a helper It was a tragic experience where these people tried to commit suicide right in front of me And I had to kind of save them and there was no medical attention I was programmed to do these things rights They conditioned me to have these responses, but I still regret them. [CALVIN] You still regret it. I think that's kind of how I feel a little bit because The things that I usually don't like the word regret because I don't think it it's productive to be so stuck in the past but the things the the negative feelings that came up in me what made me come over here to agree is There were things that I was complicit to That I witnessed that I thought was the right thing But there was something inside of me in those moments that I was like This should not be right Like there's the piece of me now that's like man Why don't you stand up and say something or do something? But when you're in it When you're there you don't you don't see it And I think that's part of the almost the healing process that you have to have empathy for that version of yourself Like hey, you didn't know any better. [WILL] The things I regret when I look back on it, and I've asked myself this question before It's why I didn't get out sooner. Another thing was not warning other people of what happened to me I didn't tell some of my brothers what had happened to me, sexual abuse with this teacher. There were moments when I was like I recognize that his role trumped all My friends, my family, everyone. Like I kept a promise with him that I wouldn't tell anybody right so I really regret that I gave him so much power. [WILL VOICE-OVER] The general misconception I I think is that people don't believe it could happen to them or they don't understand how it happened And people don't see how the cult paradigm is everywhere. There's small cults just in your office [JOHN, OFF SCREEN] "I'm on good terms with the leader of my group." Three, two, one, go. [SHELLEY] At that time anyone who was gay Male or female was not allowed to be in the group. So for about 10 years This guy was able to keep the straight men quiet in other words our husbands and he would quietly Giving our husbands blowjobs and -- I don't know how to pretty that up. Then women and and those of us that didn't know we're kind of thrown for a loop when one of the young men to whom he'd been doing this went to the San Francisco Chronicle and Made a lawsuit and there were headlines. So here you are going along - [JODI] So what are your feelings about this man, do you care for him? [SHELLEY] I'm on neutral terms with him I'm not on bad terms, I'm not - [JODI] Well if I saw him on the street He wouldn't be angry with me. Um, I I think I am angry with him. [SHELLEY] Wasn't that the question?
[CALVIN] No, I think both of those are correct [SHELLEY] And I just want to say this today, right now, is the first time I've ever spoken out publicly about it [CALVIN] Good for you [BENJAMIN] The cult leader in my group was marrying eight-year-old girls and using the Bible to justify Saying Mary the mother of Jesus Was a teenager and that's justification for him to then give an eight-year-old Estrogen to induce their period so that they would be justified as a woman I am NOT on good terms with them and their group still goes on. [CALVIN] The reason I'm not on the best terms with the leaders in my church is I did so very publicly. There was one time in particularly where One of the church leaders kind of reprimanded me on one of my Facebook posts saying that I sounded judgmental. In my head I remember thinking I haven't even been in this what and you think you can tell me what to do and I was like this Guy can go fuck himself and then I felt all of this fear Come up Because yours taught your entire life that these people are God's people, they're God's Prophets so you don't say anything and I felt so much fear and I was like, holy this is so weird And so I commented back and said thanks for the comment, but you can go fuck yourself with love, Calvin [JOHN, OFF SCREEN] "I am a better person because of what I experienced." Three, two, one, go. [SHELLEY] God... my most honest answers is here. In terms of worldly, I had tremendous worldly experience that I don't think I would have gotten so I'll... [WILL] I just grew so much. I mean I used to think I was growing in one week I would grow a year, but I also learned things I never would have done myself Like I learned how to dance and learn how to do massage I learned how did you know all these different amazing things? For me it was it was good. [JODI] In spite of the experience I have grown and I'm able to help people and mentor them and Raise awareness about this abuse because I went through it but I wouldn't say I was a better person because of it But in spite of it [JOHN, OFF SCREEN] "Cults are everywhere." Three, two, one, go. [CALVIN] There are little pieces of cults in all things that we don't see One of my favorite guilty pleasures is honestly going to YouTube and watching Flat Earth videos, it's so obvious and you can see the mental traps, but here's the thing we all have so many of those mental traps the same people that are pointing and saying oh, I can't believe those people believe that or do that thing They do it in some other way where we just believe something because it's all we've ever believed. [WILL] The reason I'm not in Strongly agree is because you can see right here. There are different kinds of cult experiences, right? You guys had some really really Extremely hard ones you were born into it you had dark dark experiences We had these other kind of spiritual dark and light experiences. You know, my generalization is cults are dark. [JODI] So I think it's how do you define the word cult [WILL] That's right, how you define it. So that's why I'm here because I think there's a lot of things that just aren't cults [JODI] Well, I think, and the question was are they all around us? And I think absolutely they are I mean cults is a very strong word and when I talk about my experience, I say cult-like Because you know, some people wouldn't define our experience, my experience, as that. [BENJAMIN] I went into a Tai chi Place just on the street in Seattle. These guys started using Cult technique manipulation practices to recruit me. It wasn't until I went to Wikipedia and looked him up that I knew [JODI] Right, so you have the education you're able to bring awareness to yourself
[BENJAMIN] But I still gave them a thousand bucks [JODI] But you were able to -
[BENJAMIN] I didn't know but it was close [WILL] But that's a good point, in the 80's and 90's, we didn't have the internet we can now I say, you're just lazy. You're just lazy. [JODI] Not necessarily, sometimes you wanna believe, you wanna have faith, right? [BENJAMIN] Even in even in the boardrooms of the corporations that that make our airplanes and make our coffee There is a cult leader at the top I don't care what anyone says-
[WILL] It's, we're still a pyramid society [BENJAMIN] And that's why I'm over here because they're everywhere some of them are dangerous and some of them aren't
Just so you know, someone beat you to it - this was posted an hour or two ago!
I really enjoyed watching it, I'm so glad you were able to participate and share your experiences.
This was so interesting! Thanks for your experience and thanks for sharing!
Thanks for sharing this. I enjoyed watching. Have you seen Joe Rogan’s interview with Steve Hassan? Steve joined the moonies and had a fascinating story. I am grateful for other people who share their stories. I like how this video was done and how each person was curious about the others’ experiences.
You represented well! I like how you swore the most. It shows that language was strictly controlled before and now you're freed.
I loved this video! Since you got out of the F-LDS church do you still view TSCC as a cult? Just curious