Psychologists, what made you realize you were treating a psychopath? (R/askreddit)

psychologists have read it what made you realize you were treating a psychopath when I was a student we had an interview with a lady that killed her baby child with a handgun because it cried so much that she couldn't take it at first we weren't told that she was a psychopath and we were just told to listen to her side of the story she was reading us from her journal that she made while she was in the institution not once did she mentioned that she was sad that her baby died or how what she did was bad she was just reading angry thoughts about her husband that left her and turned her in the police about what she did she was justifying the killing because the baby was so unbearable and once she mentioned that she was angry and mad that her husband did not believe her that she didn't have any other choice but to kill the baby she was very smart and well-spoken in the whole time she was speaking she was trying to make us feel sorry for her for being locked up we later learned that sometimes she was lying about not killing her baby and other times just brag about it depending on who she was speaking with very normal looking person and very good speaker when telling that he kept thinking about how killing people would be more fun than lame animals stray cats and dogs and everything else he could catch only 11 years old my mum worked with a boy 12 to 13 at the time who had killed animals he dragged a sheep then cut its throat he'd molested his younger brother he was big for his age and wouldn't be allowed to be alone with female staff because he would always try to manipulate them and test his strength against them in subtle ways II he'd try to hug them but squeeze to see if they were strong enough to get out of it they would often find drawings in his room of women tied up and mutilated he wasn't allowed human-like toys anymore because he'd always destroy them hang them tie them up the staff have all said it's only a matter of time before he actually kills a human and at present there's nothing they can do about it because when he hit 16 he'll no longer be in their care they had a certain degree of sympathy for him due to his upbringing his mother was a junkie and would often sell him and his brother to pedophiles they'd pick the boys up in a car take them away abused them and then bring them back to her disgusting current psychologists working in a maximum-security prison here I've worked with three individuals I daresay would have met the criteria for antisocial personality disorder within the last two weeks one commonality is that they use behaviors as tools to benefit only themselves self-harm not because they wish to hurt themselves but to use it as a tool to lure staff into the cell to incite violence slash gain extra medication slash be sent to the Shu which comes with a status boost one person offered to get me a comfortable chair when we were in a session not for my benefit but so that they could ensure I stuck around for longer to talk with them a lot of positive impression management also sometimes you feel they care but there's unfortunately an ulterior motive clinical psychologist here at first I didn't know if anything giving the context he was more put together than most of my patients the subject of his criminal past came up I only knew he had served at prison times some years before not what he was in for I had met with him a month or two when this came up turns out it was two separate sentences served both were fir ripe in both cases he was the exact thing we are afraid of a guy lurking in a dark alley jumping a drunk girl he told me about these things as if he was talking about the weather when it dawned on me that he expressed no remorse or guilt whatsoever I got the same cold gut-wrenching kind of primal fear you feel when you're out for a walk and almost step on snake not a psyche but I was in the room where my mum was being evaluated well I wasn't in the room it was like a police interrogation room with the one-way glass I was there because they needed to interview me for an outsider's perspective anyways my mum got arrested on suspicion to commit a violent crime to set the scene she was handcuffed to a table and she was pissed she's always had volatile anger issues due to heavy drug and alcohol use she was being talked to questioned all this other stuff I was there for about three hours she kept running this lady in circles to divert her from the actual problem she was insanely calm answering questions about various things that would scare a normal person she barely showed empathy for anything and it was terrifying for me to watch I knew she wasn't right in the head anyways she was abusive to both my brother but seeing how she handled the situation at hand I'm glad I got out of there or it would have gotten much worse I haven't talked to her in about four years but she's trying to get in contact I can't trust her and don't think I ever will again not a psychologist but a nurse who sees way too many sight cases one time I had a PT who was brought in after trying to break into a family's house while they were home he was on my lemon tree unit because his electrolytes were out of whack and he was acting like he didn't remember trying to bust into an entire family's house with them home he was getting antsy but the hospital at work that had a stupid fall risk policy that kept patients in bed even if they were young / healthy / capable of being responsible for their fall mental health patients liked to pace especially when they start to feel like they're using it so anyway I'm trying to keep dude in bed because if his feet touch the floor a loud alarm would go off pushing his crazy ass closer to the edge so I'm in there trying to talk to him and deescalate we're talking and he tells me he is a bad person that his cat was mutilated and his sister asked what happened to it and he told her the dog did it but he told me that his secret is that he did it he killed the cat so bad that it looked like a dog ripped it to pieces he also shared with me that he knew what he was doing when he tried breaking into the family's home and that he wants to hurt people of course I shared this info with the hospitalist in the psychologist and naturally he was discharged free and clear the next day no follow up with the law or outpatient psych gotta love it you feel it in your gut first using a validated measure and constructing a thorough case history to discuss in supervision this is how you test your gut feeling but you feel it often quite quickly it tends to begin with just a sense that something is off when you're doing therapy with someone we tend to build up quite a strong rapport with people so there's lots of micro mimicry going on and you start to tune in quite deeply - unconscious body language when you're in the state sometimes you just start to feel very uneasy and you can't articulate verbally exactly why yet this is often because of subtle micro expressions super fast flashes of emotion lasting fractions of a second that we perceive but don't consciously register you see flashes of contempt related emotions and burglar smiles basically emotions related to dominance and deception the next thing you'll notice is a lot of use of projection going on this starts quite quickly usually in an assessment session I mean as an aside being assessed by someone else can feel quite threatening to anyone's self-image let alone a Psychopaths quite predictably there will be status challenges asking you about your credentials your experience etc and then often some put downs and digs with plausible deniability eg joking that all psychologists are mad themselves or just turning the tables by asking who's the maddest person you've ever treated you start to feel on the back foot and like you're now being assessed by them as time continues they will attribute a lot of their own emotions to you as the projection deepens and commenting that you look sad asking if you're okay or conversely asking why you got angry just then as time passes their effect turns from micro-expressions to more overt dominance displays leaning back smirking getting up and striding around etc by this point your initial gut feeling is getting more supportive evidence and it's time to bust out the validated measures the biggest sign of all is a general unwillingness to show any vulnerability at all or to be in a one down position the engagement will be superficial often pally or matey with lots of banter and joking always flying close to the wind of outright mockery and contempt they will start subtly and increasingly become overt in their need to control and dominate the therapy sessions if the therapist maintains an aloof control the auntie may keep being raised and even end up with avert intimidation of the therapist okay so what's the difference between psychopathy and narcissism people seem to be only focusing on how most psychopaths are narcissistic but they're not really mentioning anything else I'm autistic and because of my very low empathy I come across as mildly psychopathic however I have very low self-esteem I do not manipulate people as far as I can tell my former roommate on the other hand was a narcissist to a trash steep tea to the point where she abused and manipulated me in so many ways over the course of a year yet the descriptions in this threat are conflating so what other traits of a psychopath or the what differentiates us I read that the lack of empathy and autism and the lack of empathy and psychopathy are actually different things I can't remember the specific terms used but it was something like cognitive empathy versus what we would think of as real empathy understanding versus feeling a psychopath would have high cognitive empathy meaning they can read what other people are feeling but low real empathy meaning they can feel it themselves this means they can do what they need to make someone feel what is useful to them without feeling any of the negative emotions themselves autism is supposedly the opposite you feel what other people feel but you can't process the emotions like most people so you can't make the connection that you're taking action a leads to someone feeling emotion be at least not intuitively but you still feel the emotional consequences even if you don't understand why this is what leads to being overstimulated I don't know if that's accepted science but it made sense to me not a psychologist but from my experience of dating a psychopath didn't know until years in a lot of what appears as emotion as simply mirroring emotions they see others exhibit and how they believe is the socially appropriate way to respond whether or not they actually feel that way this is how they blend in and appear normal to the average person they are narcissistic and everything revolves around them they are always able to place blame on other people nothing is ever their fault however anything positive in their lives or other's lives is because of them because they are narcissists they believe they are much more important than they actually are they have strong influence over others because of their ability to feel nothing when manipulating others and this is how they exert control over others they will do whatever it takes in order to come out on top of a situation with no actual regard for others lives or feelings they may fake their feelings or reactions to continue to manipulate those around them and they get pleasure over having control over other people and feeling like they're pulling all the strings there is so much misinformation in this thread lots of people who have clearly spent too much time watching Criminal Minds and reading Wikipedia pages you technically can be even diagnosed psychopathy at least clinically the pcl are which people have mentioned see cherry-picked is a list of the traits commonly seen in psycho and is not conclusive as many people can display these traits and not be a psychopath as such the very model of the traits of psychopathy is reductionist intends to ignore the context under which the behavior takes place in favour of a quick diagnosis as people scramble to see the motive in an offender's actions after the fact most people that fit the traditional behavioral role of a psychopath aren't violent offenders but rather highly successful individuals who lean toward careers that reward their lack of empathy it is even harder to recognize in children and the idea of the psychopathic triad killing animals obsession with fire and long-term bedwetting which has long been seen to be a predictor of future violent behavior was first posited in 1964 and has been the subject of heavy debate ever since for some context whenever you write any kind of paper in any psychology class research is considered out of date after five years not fifty five I don't claim to be a psychologist for karma I have studied it but not in any amount that makes me qualified to treat people but it needed to be said that people are shamelessly milking the classic idea of a psychopath for enternet points openly and shamelessly narcissistic behavior then following it with a lack of remorse or admission of guilt and topping it off with a big old load of shallow affect which would make most of the people commenting on this thread as judged by themselves Psychopaths funny that the best way to know for sure is to sit down with a psychologist and tell them without reservation about your life and the way you experience the world if you're more interested in self diagnosis although I would advise against it as it's entirely meaningless due to self-deception and bias there are plenty of resources available online you could easily find a copy of the dsm-v with five minutes or less of online searching if you're looking for personal experiences which align with yours just read through reddit there are plenty of us floating around some things you could look for pretty easily - do you feel empathy have you ever felt bad for hurting someone do you get sad when people leave your life do you miss people when they leave are your emotions particularly strong or long-lived have you ever felt loved are you generally law-abiding due to moral reasons do you get outraged at moral offenses are you prone to loneliness if the answer to any of these questions is yes then I would say it's unlikely that you're a sociopath but then I'm only able to speak from my own experience and I'm not a psychologist so take it with a grain of salt this thread is interesting so I thought I'd contribute I'm not a psychologist I'm a criminologist obviously it's not the same sort of thing and I've never been in a clinical situation but you might be interested in some related experiences note here that I'm going to be very careful with my language in order to maintain professional integrity apologies for the stilted language I've been to a couple of prisons for academic stuff and work these are not actually all that interesting because I knew what the people in there were for and it wasn't as if I was surprised that some of them were psychopathic but those would be my first experiences but my area of professional and academic expertise is child sexual victimization I very occasionally seen Psychopaths in the making as it were victims who have been so terribly victimized and neglected that you can see them setting out on the path of an abuser or other type of criminal it wasn't my responsibility to intervene and I don't have any expertise in that area of things but knowing the case histories it was sad to watch I've talked to a few police officers social workers and so forth about a few of them it's like watching a large tree toppling in slow motion you know it's going to crash into the ground but there's not much you can do about it I have met in a professional capacity but in a roundabout sort of way as it's not the usual stuff I do the relative of a serial killer who was also once a suspect I came away from that meeting knowing with certainty that they were the guiding hand behind the crimes of the serial killer the police were pretty sure as well but there was simply no evidence both are now deceased and frankly I'm not going to shed any tears for them there was definitely familial abuse there as well I have encountered some persons a very small number that were psychopathic and quite smart this was through working with in my field one of these persons indicated that they were abusive towards animals in lieu of or to work up to children I'm not going to repeat it but what they said was something that haunts me to this day and I haven't even been able to repeat to my closest friends or even my psychologist another one of these persons escaped justice a very very smart person it was no one's fault the investigation was excellent the police were great everything lined up in a lot of justice was achieved that person however escaped justice by being very very smart they were responsible for very serious sustained offending and would definitely be classed as a psychopath last I met a friend of a person who used to be within my social circle who was also victimized in their childhood I have a suspicion without any solid evidence that they have committed serious crimes they hold down a professional job and are very successful in life from the standpoint of someone who cannot diagnose psychopathy and was not treating or analyzing them but has studied it I would say that they lack any real empathy or conscience a lot of their emotions but not all seemed to me to be a simulated and conscious act the abuse they suffered was of the worst possible kind as a result they were wary of most men but warmed up to me a little due to the work I do abuse and neglect during the formative years seemed to be a very common thread for many criminals and Psychopaths that said I daresay there are some who were just wrong in the head but I personally haven't encountered any of that sort I'll end this already two long post with a word of caution to everyone reading it's very easy to be horrified of the actions of psychopaths and criminals it's easy to be fascinated by their psychology but these are people just like we are most of the time their actions can be traced back to what happened to them how they interpreted it how they learn from their life experiences there but for the lottery of birth there aren't any evil monsters living under bridges or in forests it's just us we bear responsibility for the evil of psychopaths as a society as communities and Nations we create the conditions for crime and evil we are the monsters and we create the monsters as Oscar Wilde put it we are each our own devil and we make this world our hell not a psychologist but four days ago after 35 years I found out by myself that my father is either a psychopath or a hardcore narcissist without him taking any guilt at all for anything or any feeling of remorse for what he is doing having blamed and shamed me all my life when we were both alone so there were never witnesses you are the best son I can think of in public and I'm so disappointed in you and way more in private push and pull you can't do anything right and think you were to blame there was not much physical abuse because it seems they don't like to leave traces on your body I did a crap-ton of personal development work on my own for four years and left my home country three years ago because I thought something was wrong with me I was lying in bed and cried out a fear of having to go into a mental asylum many times three years of separation and hundreds or even thousands of hours of contemplation and building up knowledge about personal development and many insights lead me to freedom only to realize that because of this history with my father I was in a relationship with a narcissist because I now was very sensitive I could feel when I got manipulated by her I cut cords immediately you were a honeypot for these types of personality disorders because you were already weakened and easy prey so chances are high that it's not only one person in your circle of friends and you can literally trust no one who he has had any contact with at all it is enough when people have had a nice first impression of him that they doubt everything you say and by that increased the feeling that you already have that you are going insane because of this if you have only the slightest suspicion I'd suggest seeing a counselor because he is a neutral person and tell him about your suspicions a clear sign after the break-in period where he or she gains your trust is that you feel confused or lack in my case you think that something is wrong with your mind or that you go insane if it goes long enough only after hardcore analyzing yourself and listening carefully how your body and mind reacts to the words spoken by that NRP you have a slight chance to identify him /her also another sign I think is overlooked too often is that when you have very low self-esteem are insecure etc chants are high that you are under the influence of at least one abuser their biggest tool is that you trust every word of them which makes it almost impossible to see what really is happening also it in my case always happens off record so you never have proof that they manipulate you they are ultra nice to your friends so when you start talking to them they are on the side of the abuser which can really drive you crazy with self-doubt it must be like that to be physically abused and everyone says you are responsible for having been abused victims shaming and a last tip if you realize it don't confront them and don't try to rescue people of his circle you might have already the label crazy on you he managed that they have to loose their identity which is for them the same as to die so they might even kill to prevent this from coming out cut cords and never exchange any more words with them or their friends is my solution and check your friends for signs of this behavior it really is that creepy or even more after having read it again I'm not sure if he was a confirmed psychopath I didn't interact with him slash long consistently enough to find out for sure I was introduced to G at a party he was dating a friend of mine who I went to uni with who will collab I hadn't seen her for a while were both good friends with another friend a it was hosting a party and MMG were there I was introduced to G and as soon as I went to shake his hand and met his eye contact I knew something wasn't right I felt the hair on the nape of my neck stand up and a shiver run down my spine it was like there was nothing behind his eyes I heard a little voice in the back of my head telling me to run for the hills I met him a few times after that and each time my lizard brain was internally screaming at me I was on edge the whole time I heard through a over the course of the next six months about how G was manipulative controlling and vindictive towards M and a was seeing less and less of M I initially tried to reassure me that I was exaggerating and making it up when I confessed I didn't like him right off the bat slowly she conceded that okay maybe G was on the spectrum or something eventually she agreed that he was manipulative but never met me at psychopaths either way and I both assisted m and leaving the relationship she was alive and girlfriend towards the end and she's now happily single a freaky nightmare for her but a happy ending she's had some counselling and we've closed ranks around her and she is now happy sort of that she's been through it because she feels she's less naive about the world [Music] [Music]

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Id: 3iZY_CZ_ihc

Length: 22min 6sec (1326 seconds)

Published: Mon Sep 16 2019