- Kind of happy to do some introspective, you know, really look at yourself. And boy, that guy was right. I mean, now I read that article, I'm like, yeah, yeah, definitely. Definitely narcissist, definitely trying to prove something, definitely thinks he's
smarter than everybody else, definitely arrogant, you know? I mean, I'm going through and I'm like, yeah,
absolutely, absolutely. I mean, he stopped just
shy of saying scumbag, and so I'll push the
envelope and say scumbag. He could have added scumbag. - [Mark] All right, Matthew. Matthew, where'd you grow up? Where are you from originally? - [Matthew] I'm from Tampa, Florida. - [Mark] And tell me about your family. You had both your parents
when you were a kid? - Yes, yes I had, yeah, my mom and my dad. - [Mark] Good childhood? - You know, I had a learning disability, so basically I had, I had two brothers, ugh, two brothers, I had two sisters, one brother. My mother wasn't supposed
to be able to have children. When she was 40 years old, she went in for a hysterectomy and found out she was pregnant and actually then I was born. But I had a learning disability,
which I struggled with. And so as a result, my
father was an alcoholic. And I don't think I really measured up to what he wanted in a son. I know my brother didn't. So it was just a lot of disappointment, a lot of what you would call, I don't wanna say mental abuse. You know, I hate to complain about it, because I've met guys
that have serious abuse, being basically beaten and
tortured or sexually abused. So I hate to say it
wasn't a great childhood. It was a struggle. So, you know. - [Mark] And how far do you go to school? - I eventually got a college degree. I graduated high school, a school for kids with
learning disabilities. Basically when I graduated,
I think I probably read at a third or fourth grade level. - [Mark] Oh, is that right? - And then I went on to college, but I got a degree in fine arts. So there wasn't a lot of reading. And I had a registered
learning disability, so I was able to take tests untimed. And you know, so I was working, I was always working around
that particular issue. - [Mark] And then eventually
you got into, into what? - I eventually, you know, initially after I graduated college, I ended up getting my insurance license. And I tried to work as
an insurance adjuster, but the truth is I couldn't
keep up with the workload. And eventually I started
working construction jobs, and I ended up dating a girl that was working for a subprime lender. And she told me, you know,
"You've got to do this. "You're charismatic. "You know, you're a natural salesman. "You would be great." So I went and got my mortgage license, and I went to work for this
company called Eagle Lending. And I actually was pretty
good as a mortgage broker. I mean, I excelled immediately and started closing loans very quickly, the bulk of which contained
some type of fraud, just because of the industry at the time. My first loan, when I went to
go send it to underwriting, my manager actually noticed that there was a 30 day late on one of the documents when, my borrower had been
30 days late on a rent. And my manager told me, "White it out. "White it out, make a copy,
send it into underwriting, "you'll be fine." So I did. The loan closed. I make 3,500 bucks real quick. Next guy that comes in,
he made 45,000 a year. If he made 55,000 a year,
he would've gotten a loan. So you change the number. You make a copy, you send it in. And most of the guys that were
there were doing something and most of them were saying,
"Look, worst case scenario is, "you might get fired, but
nobody's calling the FBI. "Don't worry about it.
It's gonna be fine." So very quickly, I think in combination with my fine arts degree, I got more and more creative. And it got to a point where,
I mean, I was closing, I was like the top producing
broker in the office. They then make me a manager. Then the company actually got shut down, and I started my own company. And of course I, within
six months to a year, I've got 12 guys working for me. - [Mark] This was around what year? - I would say this is
around 1999, '98, '99. So I ran that company
for three or four years. Yeah, about '87, '88,
'89, right around '88. Sorry, 1998. Did I say '88?
- '98. - 1998, right. So about 1998, I think
I started the company. - [Mark] And everyone was doing
these kind of games, right? - Well, yeah, they were. Usually they were massaging
this, massaging this. But I mean, I just got to
the point where I was like, you know, there's no like, fraud is black and white. People are like, "Oh, it's a gray area." It's not a gray area. You're either lying or you're not lying. So if you're going to lie, then go all in. You know, I mean, why not? I'm already in trouble. So I'd make a W2 or pay stub before long. As you would get caught by underwriters or they would catch things,
you'd start to realize what you needed to do to cover for that. And so I started to realize, okay, if I make a fake employer,
I have to connect it with a real tax ID number
with a real company. But then if they call the real company, they'll figure it out. So I need to register in the directory that this company is whatever,
a DBA of that company working in Tampa. So they'll call the Tampa number
and I can answer the phone and I can verify the guy's employment. So you get more and more creative. And before you know it,
I have fake companies, fake bank websites, I'm
making bank websites. I mean, I'm just going crazy. And you know, so the
company did fairly well. The FBI said that the company, they wanted to charge me with somewhere between like 40 to 50
million in bank fraud, sorry, in bank fraud for
the company, this is later. But basically what happened was, eventually someone I knew
got caught, and got caught. Another mortgage company
I'd been closing some of my loans through, they got caught. The owner of the company knew me, and she wore a wire on me. And I ended up being
indicted for wire fraud and I pled guilty, but
there was no dollar loss. Like basically I'd lied on an application. So I got three years probation. But I couldn't run the
mortgage company anymore. - [Mark] It seems like in the industry a lot of games are being played, right? - Right. Absolutely. But not necessarily to the
extent that I was playing them. So ultimately, you know, after
I become, I get on probation, I can't run the mortgage company anymore. Part of my probation
was you're not allowed to own the mortgage company. You have to give up your license. So I give up my license. And instead of doing the right thing and, you know, claiming bankruptcy and moving into my parents'
spare room, starting over, I decide that I'm gonna take it up a notch and I'm going to start creating, I'm gonna go ahead and run
a real real estate scam. It was based on things I'd
learned over the years. So I start making synthetic identities. And I figure out how
to get Social Security to issue Social Security numbers to people that don't exist. I would then, you know, I would then order secured
credit cards in their name which creates a credit profile. I would make the payments. And after about six months, they would have 700 credit scores. So now these guys have 700 credit scores, and I would attach them to employment. And I would then go out and buy properties in the Ybor City area of Tampa, Florida. I bought property. I would go in and buy properties
for $40,000 and $50,000. But I would record the value or the sale of those
properties at 200,000, 195, 210, right around 200. And then so each one of
my synthetic identities would buy like five houses. So it looks like they own a
million dollars in real estate. - [Mark] And these are
people who don't exist? - These people don't exist. I mean, I gave them names. I actually was a big Quintin
Tarantino fan at the time. And "Pulp Fiction" had come out. But I remember I loved,
I'd seen "Reservoir Dogs." And so I named the guys
were like Lee Black, Michael White, James, I had James Red, I had William Blue. I had a Brandon Green. You could see the, you know,
so I thought it was cute, which by the way, the
judge saw no sense of humor in that at all. He had no sense of humor about it. So I buy these properties
and I buy them for 40,000. Each guy buys about five properties. I record the values around 200,000. So the whole area shoots up through them. And that way I was able
to then turn around and get an appraisal on the property. You know, you clean up the outside. It's basically a crack house, but you take 10 grand,
you clean it up outside, it looks good. You get an appraiser to come in. He uses the comparable sales which are all my comparable sales and says, "You know, it's funny,
it's a shitty neighborhood "but this house over here went for 200, "this one 195, that one for 205. "I mean, I think your
house is worth 200,000." Great, so he gives me an appraisal. I go to the bank. I submit all the paperwork to the bank, and they approve the guy
for a loan for $190,000. The loan closes. I sign the documents. I would just go and show up and I'd say, "Hey, can you give me the documents? "I'm gonna drive it out to my guy." And because I knew all the title people, they were like, "Sure, no problem." They'd give me the documents. I'd go sit in the parking lot
and I'd sign the documents. I'd come back 30 minutes
later, give them the documents. They cut me a check. You know, I just made a hundred thousand, $150,000 on this property. And each guy did this
and I'd say on average each person was worth around
half a million to 600,000. I'd make the payments. And then eventually, I'd make the payments for three or four months. And then eventually my synthetic identity, my false borrower would
have a tragic accident, and he would stop making his payments. And so then when the collection agent started sending letters, I would have his sister
write a letter saying, "Look, he's in a coma. "He was in an accident." I'd send a copy of it
like a 12 car pile up. You know, he was life-flighted. He's in a coma. Even if he wakes up, the doctors
say he'll never work again. That's it. Now the collection agencies,
they have a reason why, why this guy isn't making the payments. And they don't think fraud. And so they immediately foreclose and they put the house back
on the market and they sell. They end up losing a hundred, $150,000. And they just assume, hey, we made a loan. The guy didn't pay. The market's, it's fickle. That's it. So I think "Forbes" magazine said that I had taken the market
in Ybor City in that zip code, and they listed it as one of the top 20 fastest growing
markets in the nation. And I'd taken the medium
price from $50,000 to $250,000 in about 18 months. FBI said I'm responsible
for $11.5 million in fraud. And I flipped, or I did
this with 109 houses. I feel like that's an
exaggeration but whatever. Nobody cares about my opinion. Eventually what happens, and I'm also on federal
probation, by the way. What ends up happening is, a friend of mine who was a
sheriff's deputy finds out that, sorry, someone I know gets caught. They tell the authorities what I'm doing. There's, a task force is put together. They hand the taskforce over to the FBI. Someone that was on the task
force knew a friend of mine who was a sheriff's deputy. He comes to me and says, "Look, "the FBI is coming to arrest you." So I take off on the run. I had about 80,000 in cash, because I had to go immediately almost. So I jump in my car. I go to Atlanta. I rent a house from someone
with the girl I was dating. We rent the house. I then go and satisfy
the loan on the house. This guy had a loan, his
name was Michael Shanahan. So I satisfy his loan. So I've rented his house. I then assume his identity. I satisfy the loan. I create a fake satisfaction
of mortgage and I go downtown. I satisfy the loan on the house. So now it looks like I, Michael Shanahan, own the house free and clear. I then go to three
different hard money lenders and get each one of them
to lend me $150,000. They lend me roughly $450,000. I close on all those loans simultaneously. I pull out the money out of
several different bank accounts. And I take off again before the Secret Service
enters the picture. Now the Secret Service
is interested in me. They're chasing me. I'm number one on the Secret
Service's Most Wanted list. So I take off, the
Secret Service shows up. They're looking for me. And I think they named us
like the Bonnie and Clyde of bank fraud or mortgage
fraud or something. And there's wanted posters, you know. And by this point there's
articles coming out left and right and newspaper articles. There's TV programs. And we're on the news. I realize it's pretty bad. So I'm not thinking, I definitely think I
don't want to get caught. I, by this point, I also have, by the way, I've figured out how to get the DMV of pretty much any state to
issue me a driver's license. So I've had, I want to say
it was 20, it's like 27 or 26 driver's licenses in
like seven different states. I've had almost two dozen passports all issued by the State Department. So I'm traveling in
and out of the country. We're going wherever we want. We've got plenty of money. End up leasing a really great town or condo in Charlotte, North Carolina. And I start running a
scam in South Carolina. I get someone to owner
finance their house to me, a couple of people. And I end up borrowing
like $1.3 million there. And I'm pulling money out
of that particular scam. It was about halfway through, pulling out maybe five, 600,000. I forget how much. I think I left 600,000 in the bank. Anyway, to wrap it up is that basically one of the, an employee, it's difficult. Look, they figured out what I was doing. Bottom line is they figured
out what I was doing. I walked into the bank one day, two sheriff deputies show
up, they handcuff me. And they sit me down in the office, and the detective comes. And he's calling me Gary Sullivan. He's saying, "Well, listen,
Mr. Sullivan, Mr. Sullivan." So I'm thinking they, at
first I thought they had me. I'm number one on the Secret
Service's Most Wanted list. They got me. But they're calling me Mr. Sullivan. So detective shows up,
he starts questioning me. He says, "Look, Wachovia's
head of security says "that you're running something
called a shotgunning scam. "They think you're committing
a fraud, blah, blah, blah." And I'm like, "What, what
are you talking about?" So they get him on the phone. And I argue with him and the detective, and I convince them. I convinced the detective that maybe the bank loan
officers did something wrong, but I certainly didn't. So what ends up happening is
he ends up taking me downtown. He lets me fill out a police report and then he lets me leave. So I take off, of course. Wachovia's head of security is furious. Of course, the FBI Secret Service show up a couple of days later, they're livid. You let this guy go. I end up, basically ditch
the girl that I'm with. And then I almost get
caught by the U.S. Marshals in a Starbucks, because I had gone back to my old department to get a car. That was horrible. I called the FBI, trying
to turn myself in, negotiate to turn myself in. That doesn't work out. These guys want to give me like
seven years for just Tampa. I'm sure they want another seven years for what I've already done on the run. That doesn't work out. So I go to Nashville and I
start running another scam, you know, because that's what I do. So I go there, I start buying houses. I drive the price up. I start the whole process over again. And you know, what
happens is I meet a girl. It's always a girl. Meet a girl, she moves
in, I'm doing what I do. And she and I start messing
around with another girl. And this girl comes over
a couple times a week. And at some point when I found out "Dateline
NBC" was gonna do a one-hour special on me. I'd already been in
like "Fortune" magazine, "Bloomberg," "Business Week." I'd been in probably 50 or 60 articles. "Chicago Tribune" is
doing like a series on me. But I was okay with that. What I wasn't okay with
was being on national news on national TV, because any
idiot can watch "Dateline." And somebody watches
"Dateline" and sees my face, and they go, "Hey, that's Carter. "He lives down the street. "He comes in and gets
a Starbucks every day." Or hey, who knows. So what happens is we basically
start pulling out money and I'm gonna leave. I was planning on going to Australia, because if you showed up in Australia with a business plan and
like $100,000 at that time, you weren't a citizen, but you became a permanent resident alien. You could open a business
and you could live there and buy property. So I thought, I'll just
go there and retire. So I'm obviously, I borrowed another 3.5
million in Nashville. So at this point on the run, I've borrowed like four
and a half million, something like that. And so I'm about to take off. And my girlfriend ends up
confiding in this other girl that we're seeing who I am, and she calls the Secret
Service and turns me in. And bam, that's it. I get arrested, and it's not good. It's a bad day. It was a bad day. Nobody's happy with me. Nobody, the judge, the U.S. attorney, nobody finds what I did as being remotely, you know, sympathetic or comical. I mean, like the satisfaction of mortgage, I signed one of the
satisfaction of mortgage, and I did dozens of them. And one of them, I signed
C. Montgomery Burns, which is the aging
tycoon in "The Simpsons," the old man that owns the power plant. So, you know, these
are the kinds of things that being on the run and
being kind of just creative and comical and I would do that then when you're
standing in front of the judge is absolutely not funny. I mean, nobody's smiling. Nobody thinks, oh, that was kinda clever. No, it's all bad. - [Mark] Everyone thinks
you're a smart ass. - Oh, God. I mean, you know, and here's the thing, and I was. And this is the thing is that yeah, is that, you know, the
whole time I'm on the run, "Fortune" magazine comes
out with an article. I remember reading the
"Fortune" magazine article and just being offended that they'd spoken with some psychiatrist that
worked at like John Jay College for criminology in New York, right. Criminal justice or something. And he was saying, "Oh, he's a con man. "And he's narcissistic. "And he thinks he's smarter
than everybody else. "He's trying to prove something. "He's trying to prove to
everybody how clever he is." And I was thinking, this
guy doesn't know me. And that's all bullshit. That's a lie. That's not true. But this is the way, eventually, like when I get to prison I
start writing guys' stories. And you start kind of having
to do some introspective, really look at yourself. And boy, that guy was right. Now I read that article. I'm like, yeah, yeah, definitely. Definitely narcissist, definitely trying to prove something, definitely thinks he's
smarter than everybody else, definitely arrogant. You know, I'm going through and I'm like, yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, he stopped just
shy of saying scumbag. And so I'll push the
envelope and say scumbag. He could have added scumbag. I'm doing scumbag things. I'm doing scumbag things and expecting people
to be impressed by me. You know what I'm saying? It's just like you're, it's like saying everyone
should be impressed by me. I'm really just a pariah
living off of society, but you should be impressed by me because look at this
clever little thing I did. I mean, it's just, it was just pure arrogance. So I end up, look, I can't
go to trial, (laughs) because I'm guilty. I'm extremely guilty. I remember we actually had a bond hearing, and I remember my lawyer
goes, there's a bond hearing, and she said, I said,
"I'm gonna get bond?" And she went, she goes, "No, "they're not gonna give you a bond, "but they have to give you the hearing." And she goes, "If they
gave you bond," she goes, "what would you do?" I go, "I'd run." And she goes, "Yeah, they're
not giving you a bond." And keep in mind too, on the run, I'd had a nose job, two hair grafts. I had a facelift, like three liposuctions. I mean, I'm going all in for the whole you're
not gonna recognize me. I'm not gonna get caught. Basically I end up, I plead guilty. 'Cause if I went to trial she said they could stack the charges. I could have gotten 150, 154 years. I think the newspaper said something like 200-something years,
but that's not true. It was 154 years. Not that that would have happened. They probably would've
just given me 32 years. But I took a plea. I got 26 years. I went to prison. I mean, I will skate over, you know, to explain that I got my sentence reduced twice. The quick version is that
I actually cooperated. Because I can't go to trial, and I can't do 26 years. And so I actually cooperated, but the cooperation
didn't lead to anything. No one was arrested. So it was like, you cooperated
and you don't get anything. And the problem is, is you
can't force the government to give you a reduction
out of cooperation. It's completely at their discretion. So like I said, I cooperate. Nothing occurs from it. I end up, one of the things that the government asked me to do was they asked me to be
interviewed by "Dateline." Because "Dateline" had
done one, one-hour special. Now they were gonna do a
second one-hour special. They wanted to interview me. So I'm interviewed by "Dateline." My lawyer had told me it would be considered
substantial assistance, and they would reduce my sentence for it. So I do it. And the night before I go to be sentenced, my lawyer says, "Hey,
he did they interview. "What are you gonna reduce a sentence for? "How much are you gonna ask for off?" And they say, the U.S. attorney
was named Gale McKenzie. And she said, "We're not
gonna give him anything." And my lawyer goes, "You
said you'd consider it "substantial assistance." She goes, "And I did
consider it, and it's not." (laughs) I just remember, oh my God. And I remember thinking
that she totally conned me. She totally just bamboozled me. And I remember being upset. But looking back on it I
think, what did you expect? You can't bitch and moan about it. I mean, look at what you were doing. You can't be a scumbag and then be upset when people do scumbag things to you. So they didn't do it. I get 26 years, I go to prison. They then come to me and they ask me to do a TV show called "American Greed," to be interviewed for "American Greed." They said, "We will definitely consider it "substantial assistance." What choice am I gonna have? They won't put it in writing. They told my lawyer. I do it. They air it. We go back to the U.S. attorney and say, "Look, will you reduce the sentence? "He did both these interviews now." And she goes, "It's just not enough." I'm then asked to write, a couple of years have
gone by at this point. I'm contacted by someone who teaches continuing education courses for mortgage brokers. 'Cause they all have to
take them every year. One of them is on ethics and fraud. They asked if I'll teach the course, write the course for them. - In prison?
- In prison. Flies up to Atlanta, talks
to the U.S. attorney. The U.S attorney sends
an email to my lawyer, my lawyer, they have meetings. They're absolutely gonna
reduce my sentence for it. Absolutely, 100%. So I write the course, it's 9,500 words. They're using it all over the country. People are calling my
ex-wife, telling her, "I just took my continuing
education course, "and the whole thing is on your husband, "your ex-husband, and he wrote it." So it's being used everywhere. So we go back to the U.S.
attorney and say, "Great. "How much are you gonna get off, "knock his sentence off?" And she says, "Nah, it's just not enough." So at this point, I'm
basically, I've got 26 years and I'm doomed. When you call your lawyer and
say, "What are we gonna do?" and she starts crying on the
phone, you have an issue. This is a problem. So basically it's like, look,
put in for a two-man cell, join the softball team, you're staying. So what ends up happening is I end up coming across this bipolar lawyer who's in prison for, he's
a rapid cycling bipolar. He's an access five rapid cycling bipolar with features of schizophrenia. Since he's been a
teenager, he has believed that God is telling him he is preordained to be emperor of the world. What I love about it is that it doesn't affect his legal work. So he ends up becoming
a venture capitalist, taking over a whole bunch of companies. And then once he's got
about 40,000 employees, he starts withholding
the tax, payroll taxes. He pulls out $2 million
and he starts trying to, he tries to take over the
Congo during a political coup. It's insane. So this is the guy who's telling me that God is talking to him. And by the way, he
ultimately gets 22 years and goes to prison. Now he's with me. But here's the great thing about him. He's walking guys out the door. He's getting guys' sentences cut in half. He's an amazing lawyer. So I go to him and I
tell him what happened. And he says, "Oh, absolutely not. "I'm not gonna let that stand. "I'm gonna take care of this." He files a bunch of motions. All the sane lawyers on
the street, by the way, told me there's nothing you can do. He filed some motions,
what's called a 2255. And we go back and forth
with the government. He convinces the government to reduce my, basically brings me back
in front of the court and let me talk to the judge. They bring me back. They give me a lawyer. I go back. We get in front of the judge. The judge knocked seven
years off my sentence. So that's seven years. That's pretty good, but
I'm only down to 19. And so then what happens is this. I'm back, I've got about eight
or nine more years to go, because I'd already been
done like seven years. I got another like nine years to go with good time, whatever. So I come back and I'm
walking around the compound with a guy who was there for
stealing a hundred and no, sorry, $57 million from
churches and pension funds. I think he's 60. And we're walking around, and he was in the middle
of actually cooperating against people that had helped
him in his Ponzi scheme. And he ends up telling
me, it's a long story, but he ends up telling me, eventually just says, "Look," he's like, "I'm afraid they're
not gonna reduce my sentence "because I've hidden Ponzi scheme funds." And I go, "But you haven't." And he says, "I got a little
bit of money here and there." Now why you would tell me that
knowing the position I'm in, knowing I'm ready to
cut anybody's head clean off their body to get out of prison. I'm just, I'm not here for the stay. I want out. I don't care about you guys. You don't care about me. So he tells me that, and I end up talking to my lawyer, just I really wasn't even
thinking about doing anything. It was like a month later,
I'm talking to my lawyer. She was sending me my transcripts. 'Cause I was writing my, I was in the middle of
writing my own book. And in the middle of writing
my own book, you know, I needed my transcripts. So I called her and I say,
"Hey, I need my transcripts." And she says, "Okay." She says, "How's everything going?" I said, "Oh, good." She
says, "Anything going on?" I went like, "What do you mean?" And it was weird the way she asked it, "Anything going on in there?" I went, "No." And she goes, "Anything you
want to talk to me about?" I went, "No," like why would, it was very, it almost felt
like she knew something. And I went, "Well, you know," I said, "Something happened the other day, "but I don't think it means anything. "I don't think it can help me in any way." And I tell her this is what the guy said. "She goes, "Well, let me look into it." She makes a phone call. Next thing you know, they
call me into an office. The staff there calls me into an office. They asked me to talk to
a Secret Service agent. I talked to a Secret Service agent. So long story, I end up
explaining what happened to him. They come back. They interview the people
that he left the money with. They give up the money. It's like half a million dollars. And they end up reindicting him. He ends up getting six more months. The two other people because they turned in
the money right away, they end up getting probation,
like one year probation. Actually, one of them got,
I think, community service. Regardless. And this is the thing about that is that most people won't tell you that. You know what I mean? Like most people, like
90-some-odd, it's like 89% of criminals cooperate, but all of them lie about it. So, you know, it is what it is. You know, scumbag, snitch, rat, whatever. I don't give a fuck. - [Mark] So did you ever feel any guilt over informing on another inmate? - No. I don't feel bad about it at all. And you know, that may be, I think criminals, the
bulk of criminals are, you know, sociopaths or 1%
of society is sociopathic. 1% of American society is
currently incarcerated. So you have to assume, you know, and basically most
criminals are sociopaths. I mean, if you're gonna commit crimes and live off of society, you're probably a sociopath
if you're okay with that. So my sociopathic tendencies
are self-preservation, and I'm not that concerned
with the other guy. - [Mark] So the code
exists or doesn't exist? - No, there is no code. The code is a lie. The code is bullshit. The code is something that
other criminals tell you about specifically to get you
to not tell on them. And then they turn around and they steal. When you go to prison,
they steal all your shit. They fuck your fucking girlfriend. They talk shit about you. And then the moment they get
caught, they tell on you. I mean, it's a delusion. The few people that
statistically, statistically, based on the Federal
Sentencing Commission's report, which was about five, 10 years ago, it's like 89% of criminals cooperate. And some criminals don't cooperate, because they simply don't
have the opportunity to do so. - [Mark] The code is
just designed to protect whoever needs to be protected.
- Of course. - Look, El Chapo cooperating,
Maio cooperating, the heads of the cartels
cooperating with the government. How many mobsters do
you know that cooperate? Do you want to name off every
major movie that's out there that has, you know,
from "American Gangster" to "Goodfellas" to,
all of them cooperated. To survive, they're cooperating. Now, if you want to be a standup guy and you want to go do 40 years in prison and have your child
raised by someone else, and have your ex-wife or girlfriend or baby's mama be with another guy, not answer your phone, and you want to be begging
for people on the street to send you money, by all means, don't say anything. But here's what bothers me is that if you're a guy who's
willing to sell drugs, commit fraud, rob banks
and then get caught and tell me that you're living by a code, that you have some kind
of an ethical code, the truth is, you know, that's what helps you sleep at night, but you're just a scumbag. I mean, man up and just
say, "I'm a scumbag "and I'm only in it for me. "And maybe I don't want to talk "'cause I don't want
my family to get killed "or I don't want to get killed "or I'm afraid, I got caught "and I'm going to a pen where
they'll kill me if I talk." But the truth is you're not doing it because you're a good, solid person who's out there committing crimes and terrorizing decent
citizens but you've got honor. If you had honor, you'd
be working at Walmart or you'd be working in a hospital or you'd be doing something
decent with your life, but you're not. Just man up and say,
"I'm a fucking scumbag." I'm willing to say it. And if you don't want to, that's fine, but I didn't want to
do the extra 12 years. So like I said, I'll sleep
like a baby at night. And if I get called a scumbag and a snitch and a rat and I can deal with that, because I shaved 12 years off my sentence. I'm gonna survive. So what ends up happening
is they reindict the guy, and we go back to the, I end up having, they don't want to give me anything for it, by the way. They recouped half a million dollars. I actually had something
in writing this time from the U.S. attorney saying, "If you recover any funds
or there's any indictments, "we will reduce your sentence." Nope. This time they go, "What? "We don't know what you're talking about." So I actually had the letter they had sent the Secret Service agent. So I actually send it to the judge, and the judge goes, "Oh, hell no. "What are you guys doing?" And he gives me a lawyer and I go back in front of the judge. He knocks five more years off. So I basically was about 18
months away from being released. Well, prior to that, I
had written my own memoir. So I'd written my own memoir. And in the process of writing that memoir I'd started interviewing other inmates. And I'd interviewed a guy
named Efraim Diveroli, which did you ever see
the movie "War Dogs"? There was a movie called
"War Dogs" with Jonah Hill. So I wrote Efraim Diveroli's memoir, which is called "Once a Gun Runner" while I was incarcerated. And there was a movie
that was made about him by Warner Brothers. Then I ended up writing
another story about a guy. I ended up getting a book deal for that. And I get him into
"Rolling Stone" magazine. I partnered with a reporter, and he gets in "Rolling Stone" and we sell the film option. We optioned the film rights for that. - [Mark] So you're writing
these stories in prison? - In prison, about other prisoners. What I realized is that these
guys' life stories have value, but they're not in a position
to write those stories. Does that make sense? All right, I mean, first of
all, it's hard to write a story. It would be difficult for
you to write your own story, because the truth is
you just don't see you as you really are. By reading several books
about writing memoirs, about writing true crime,
about writing nonfiction, I very quickly realize that
there are certain catalysts in people's life that affect them. However, they can't see it. For instance, my father, me wanting to impress my father, who has always been disappointed in me, it's kind of, not because
of him, it's not his fault. It's my fault, but I wanted
to impress him so bad I was willing to do anything
to appear successful, even if it had meant commit fraud. And for a very short period of time he thought I was amazing. And I have so many stories with these guys where they weren't able
to see what had happened or how they developed over time and began committing crimes. So I, because I had kind
of gone through it myself, I see those things. And it goes back to that psychiatrist. It's like, I was upset, because I felt I didn't
see myself like that. But what eventually
you start to realize is that if enough people call you an asshole, you're probably an asshole. You know what I'm saying? And there's nothing wrong with that. You know, does that make sense? Like, like to me, I know guys that if you said, "Bro,
you're really arrogant," they would be furious. What do you mean I'm
arrogant? What do you mean? And they would get upset and
that's how I would have been. But the truth is you're
arrogant, but I love you. You're amazing. You're a narcissist, but it's great. You're great. You know, and then that's the thing. I'm clearly, I'm narcissistic. And so, but it makes
me a great storyteller. I also feel horrible for
anybody that's a friend of mine, because the whole time they're talking, I am simply waiting for
an opportunity for them, for a lull in the conversation so that I can shift the
conversation back to me. And I realize I have friends
that know this about me, and I'm so lucky because
they will stop me go, "Whoa, we're talking about me. "Give me five more minutes
to finish my story. "And we're gonna talk about
you for the next 20 minutes." And you know, and it's like,
they're not mocking me. They realize it's an issue. And I appreciate that
they're telling me this, because I can't do it on my own. You know how many times I've walked away from a conversation and I've
been like, "You selfish prick. "You spent 20 minutes
talking to that person. "You don't know a
fucking thing about them. "You talked about yourself the whole time. "You should be ashamed of
yourself" and it's constant. And it's horrible. It's a horrible sensation to not be able, you know what it probably
feels like, I don't know, I don't do drugs. It probably feels like what an alcoholic or a drug addict feels like. It's just this overwhelming compulsion. And as soon as it's over,
they go, "What did I just do?" They just don't even
know they're doing it. It's just autopilot.
- You want more. - Yeah. And it's horrible because
in some ways I love myself for that, and in some
ways I hate myself for it. So it's an issue. - [Nark] But the awareness
of it is a huge step. - I know. And I've had so many people say that, "Yeah, but you realize it." I know, but that almost makes it worse- - [Mark] I think you, with awareness and a little discipline,
you can police yourself and do the opposite of
what your nature is. - Listen, and I'm trying
all the time, but you know, I slip constantly. I mean, yeah. And that's what bothers me the worst. In a way, it's almost worse because now I'm so conscious of it that when I can really see it, afterwards, I'm so angry at myself for it. - [Mark] I think that's what
my channel is all about. - Yeah, well, if you're
looking for flawed people, (laughs) you hit the jackpot. I just happen to be making it work for me. I was driving with my-
- You're making money. - Yeah, I'm doing okay. - [Mark] How much stress
were you going through when you were doing all
this fraudulent stuff? - You know, listen- - [Mark] Were you sleeping? - Yeah, of course, I was taking Xanax. You know what I'm saying? I mean, I'm taking Xanax to go to sleep. I'm drinking coffee all day to stay up. I'm kind of not, I'm not
really looking over my shoulder but the anxiety is there. I'm having panic attacks. You know, I seem, I'm an
extremely confident person. - [Mark] So you were making millions when you were doing this? - I'm making millions,
but I'm also very unhappy. You know, does that make sense? - [Mark] I mean, what kind
of numbers are you making? - Oh, I mean, look, I am responsible for 15 million specifically
for me in fraud. How much money of that was, I still owe 6 million in restitution, but I would say I'm making, you know, there would be one month
where we would rake in, we'd rake in $2 million. Another month we'd rake in 100,000. The next month you rake in nothing. Then you end up getting a million. There have been times, I mean, I'm driving a hundred
thousand dollar vehicle, because I'm not really a flashy guy. I'm not gonna buy a Lamborghini, But I'm driving a hundred
thousand dollar vehicle. I actually have a couple of vehicles. I've got a great, huge house, a couple million dollars in the bank. Panic attacks, miserable,
everybody that's around me is only around me because
I can make them money. Nobody's a friend. I have no true friends. And I, you know, and I went to prison, and I think I had the whole time in prison two panic attacks, and they
were really just like blips, like just minor, nothing. Nothing like the panic
attacks I had prior to prison. And I never really felt like
I was super under stress, but I was constantly worried
and I couldn't sleep. I sleep like a baby at night now. I slept like a baby in prison. When I started writing the stories of my fellow inmates and publishing books and my life began to have a
purpose that wasn't illegal and I was accomplishing
something that I loved, it was like everything changed. And when people started saying to me, when I stopped saying, "Well,
I'm locked up for bank fraud" and immediately started justifying, when I started just saying, you know, "I'm a con man." So what are you here for? I'm a con man, just like that. And they would be like, "What'd you do?" And I'd go, "I stole this
much money and this and that "and bank fraud charges, "and got this much time and that's it." And they would just go, listen, guys, they just don't do that, especially con men. Con men in prison are
justifying everything they did, how they shouldn't be there, and they're preparing to get out, cover up everything they've
done and start over. And I would talk to these guys. They'd tell me about, "Oh, there's this company
called Reputation.com, "and they can bury all the
articles and they could do this "and I could change my
name, or I could do this." And I'm sitting there
going, "You're working "on your next prison sentence right now. "You haven't got out yet. "You're coming back." Because I have a friend who's actually in there
for a double murder and super enlightened. 20-something years he's done. And his whole thing was, you cannot go to prison
and continue to behave in the same manner that led you to prison. You cannot leave prison thinking that way and not expect to come back. And you know, guys, oh, I'm
not gonna get caught this time or I'm not going to commit any crimes. It doesn't matter. You're still acting like a scumbag. You're still a scumbag. It's going to catch up with you. - [Mark] You're a reformed con man. - I mean, yeah. This is the way I look at it. If you're an alcoholic
and you stop drinking, you're still an alcoholic. So am I a con man? Yeah, I'm constantly saying
things and doing things, you know, I'm constantly, and everybody's kinda manipulative. You know, everybody
manipulates a little bit. And I'm constantly saying things, and I catch myself a lot more. And now what I tend to do is say, "Oh, I can't promise you this." Like I try and really explain. This is what I hope will happen. I can't promise you that though. This is what I'm gonna do. Hopefully it works out. And so yeah, I end up collecting a lot of these guys' stories. I write their stories. I ended up leaving prison with a collection of
stories and several books. I started while I was in prison I actually got like a publishing deal. And that publishing deal, I really made very little
money on a publishing deal. So when I got out, I just started publishing,
self-publishing my books and writing guys' stories. I get all the stories narrated and stick them on YouTube. So I got like a YouTube
channel with all them narrated. Nobody reads. It's so sad. And you know what's so
funny too about prison is that by the time I was in prison, I spent the first couple
of years just reading. And so my third grade, fourth grade reading level shot way up. I'm still a horrible reader. Look, there's so many things
that prison helped me with. And I got out and I
make my bills, you know, pretty much every month, you know, make them and then some, a
little bit, not doing great, not making crazy money like I was. But I'm absolutely
thrilled, and I'm happy. And I don't have, you
know, I'm not stressed out. And I feel so much better
about myself than I ever did when I was out there
and I was making money and everybody thought I was a big shot and just absolutely not worth it. And the worst thing is is
that when you don't have money and someone tells you that, well, listen, money's
not gonna make you happy, they don't believe you. They don't believe you. But the truth is it's just
not gonna make you money, I mean, not gonna make you happy. Maybe, I guess if you're like,
if you make a bunch of money and if you made a bunch
of legitimate money in something that you loved, I could see you being very happy. Because those are the happy people. But really the happy people are the people that are just happy with what they have. Like your friend who's
married with two kids and gets to teaches
his son's little league and can't shut up about his kids and loves his job and doesn't
make a whole bunch of money, but he's like the happiest
guy you've ever met. And then I have buddies who
make millions of dollars and drive Lamborghinis and they're just miserable,
horrible, miserable, bitch and moan all the time, have everything going for them
and are absolutely miserable. And I just don't want to be that guy. You know, I want to write, I want to get my stories
turned into documentaries and films and series. And that's what I'm currently, you know, that's what I currently do. I do that and I paint. So I've done a bunch of YouTube, some stuff on YouTube. And as a result of that,
I get a bunch of guys that had seen my paintings and they want me to
paint paintings for them. And that's great. - [Mark] What's the most
important lesson you've learned? That? - Oh, man, listen. You know how many times, you know how many people I know,
guys that contact me because they've seen me on
YouTube, kids, everything? What should I do? Should I do this? Should I do that? And it always boils, it's real simple now. Like everything's so simple now. It's like you find something
that you love to do and you try and be the best at it. And the money will come. I'm not saying do up dope. I'm not saying, you don't
want to live in the street. Don't be stupid. But if you have to stay in your parents' spare
room for a year or two to get it off the ground,
stay in your parents'. Stop trying to keep up with your buddies. Find something that you love
and the money will come. It's a pretty simple, you know it's a pretty simple model. And if you talk to any
of these billionaires and the people that I've
met, who millions of dollars, the guys that are the
most happy are the guys that found something they
were passionate about. And then like, honestly, my girlfriend, she works 40 hours a week. And I know that she
feels like I never work. I'm really working 80 hours a week, but because I'm having
such a good time doing it and because all I do
is I paint and I write, you see what I mean? I do videos and stuff like that. So to her, I'm goofing
off, but I'm making tons, I'm not making tons of money, but I'm making really good money, pretty good money doing, I
don't even feel like I have, I don't feel like I've had
a job since I left prison. I really don't. Because I'm really just
doing what I like to do. And if it never gets better
than it is right now, it's better than it ever was. - [Mark] Excellent. Matthew, thank you so
much for talking with me. - Sure.
- Interesting story. It was a great talk. Thank you so much. - [Matthew] I hope I kept
it, that was under an hour, I hope?
- Yeah, it was great. You did a great job. You're a great storyteller too. - [Matthew] Thank you. I appreciate it. - [Mark] Yeah, that
was awesome. Thank you.
One sociopath can fuck your entire zipcode.