three two this is live ladies and gentlemen and this is a very unusual podcast we're gonna have here in a very unusual discussion I have to my left Michael Shermer very famous skeptic he's been on the podcast before of course Randall Carlson amazing gentleman who knows far too much about terrifying things like asteroids and graham hancock author also fantastic human being many times been on this podcast as well and this all came out of a podcast that Randall and Graham and I did recently and Michael Shermer commented on it and it was all essentially on the that the hypothesis that the great extinction that happened with the North American land animals that happened somewhere around the end of the Ice Age and the end of the Ice Age the abrupt end of the Ice Age being caused please correct me if I [ __ ] any of this up being caused by a comet impact Michael Shermer had some questions about that and we said this would be an amazing podcast to get everybody together in a room and go over this since then there's been some interesting stuff that's happened well I thought this is really fascinating that Forbes has a mainstream article in Forbes did a comet wipeout Ice Age megafauna and this is actually from just a couple of weeks ago and then there was also this interpretation that's fairly recent as well about one of the stone tablets one of the stone carvings rather on gobekli tepe and we Graham you would probably the best to describe that yeah that was published in Mediterranean Mediterranean archaeology and our qiyamah tree peer-reviewed journal by a couple of scientists from the University of Edinburgh and they are proposing an interpretation of the gobekli tepe imagery there's quite a lot of imagery on those t-shaped pillows particularly one pillar pillar 43 and enclosure D and their deduction what they take from their interpretation of course many will disagree with them their interpretation is that those those images are speaking of the comet impact they're speaking of a comet that hit the earth roughly twelve thousand nine hundred years before our time and Randall this has been something that you've been obsessed with for many many years now we've documented and detailed that and many in many conversations that we've had on the podcast oh yes no I can't say that I'm that familiar with that article I haven't had a chance to get into it but this idea that the comet impact is the what what has caused the end of the Ice Age well it's so complex but now what we do is we throw a some type of an impact into the mix and it seems to fill gaps go ahead pull this right up to you it seems to fill gaps that were at this point still unexplained you know there's varying theories between some extent of climate change and some extent of human predation that caused the extinction and I've always felt like you can't blame it on one or the other I think humans probably had a role but only in the very final stages of the extinction event and one of the one of the scenarios would certainly suggest that there were extreme climate changes between the bob what's called the balling allarod which was the rather gradual warming at the very end of the Pleistocene which was then followed by the Younger Dryas which was the return to fold glacial cold and in the end of the Younger Dryas which is dated at about eleven thousand six-hundred which is considered now to be the boundary of the Holocene post Younger Dryas pre boreal it's called would be the beginning of the Holocene and it seems that most of the extinctions did occur between roughly thirteen thousand and eleven thousand six hundred years ago although the dating has a wide spread on it so you can't pinpoint it down to a specific event but I've always felt like that there had to be something we needed to look at that triggered the extreme climate changes that we do see at the end of the Ice Age and into my opinion you can't attribute that solely to Milankovitch theories which is basically the changing solar-terrestrial geometries because they're too slow and what we see at the end of the Ice Age were very rapid climate changes and so one of the things that I think has been missing has been the trigger Wallis Brecker pointed out years ago that possibly a major flood from the draining of Lake Agassiz caused an interruption of the thermohaline circulation which is the basically the circulation of the the North Atlantic Ocean and that this might have been what triggered the Younger Dryas and then also contributed to the mass extinction events but now I think that the dating of the draining of Lake Agassiz is too late for that and was probably a latter event within the overall melting phenomena that occurred between roughly fourteen thousand six hundred and about eleven thousand years ago somewhere in there we have to fit that mass extinction event and and I definitely have thought that climate change was the dominant factor in that but then what triggered the climate changed that always seemed to me to be something that was not ever really explained the comet impact theory is very controversial but the evidence has been steadily mounting now for a decade including physical evidence right late the core samples that show nuclear glass scattered out throughout Asia and Europe but roughly the same time period when they do the core samples yes it's most of its dating to twelve thousand eight hundred to thirteen thousand years ago these are called impact proxies yeah that's prime ins melt melt glass microspheres these kind of these kind of things are associated with impact not necessarily always caused by impact so this has been part of the reason for the controversy but it's the abundance of all of these at a particular level which leads a large group of scientists to feel that we have had a comet impacting the full assemblage of things that is difficult to explain by processes without invoking some type of a cosmic event and it also corresponds with what you believe is a period where Earth travels through a series of comets well this gets just to the to the ideas of the the what would be called the British neo catastrophists Victor Clube and William Napier and a number of others that have theorized that from time to time Earth encounters the debris from a large disintegrating comet and there's an interesting William napier addresses this an interesting article I can pull up here pretty soon that possibly around 13,000 years ago Earth may have encountered some of the debris from a disintegrating comet which ultimately goes back to Fred Whipple who is one of the godfathers of cometary science just commit on that for a second I mean specifically bill bill napier Victor Clube are identifying the remnants of this comet with the Turin meteor stream which is familiar I think to everybody we pass through it twice a year we see meteorites particularly end of October early November that debris stream is still there it still contains according to their argument bits of the comet there are large objects in it like committing enchiridion a toe and so on for five kilometers in diameter and the suggestion is that the meteor stream it's got lots of small bits of dust but it's got some larger stuff too and some of that stuff fell out of the media stream twelve thousand eight hundred years ago and impacted primarily the north american ice cap now michael when you listen to that podcast you had some questions you are professional skeptics of course you're skeptical what what are your thoughts about all this so yeah let me pull back and give it a bigger picture after the podcast I went and got the book magicians are the gods and actually I'd listened do it on audio so it's I don't know like 16 18 hours of of Graham reading with his wonderful British accent which is you know for Americans that elevates the quality of the argument by an order of magnitude yeah that's how they sell things and infomercials over there and hey Graham you're a good writer it's a very compelling story you're a great skeptic and and you know and so I think you know a number of points about in general the idea of alternative archaeology which is really what we're talking about here I prefer that to pseudo archeology because that's a little bit of it it's supposed to be a little bit of an insult so alternative archaeology so it's good to remember that so you have these guys on the podcast for three or four hours and the audience listening thinks yeah why don't these guys get a fair hearing I mean it's like there's the mainstream and then there's these guys right but but there isn't just these guys there's hundreds of alternative archaeological theories so which one gets the play which one gets attention which one doesn't and for a mainstream archaeologists who's busy in the field in trying to get grants and so on they mostly just don't have the time to sort through all these alternative theories because this is just one and as we'll see in the next couple hours there's hundreds and hundreds of things to be addressed so that's kind of what we do so just to rattle off a few the Lost Tribes of Israel who kind of colonized the Americas Mormon archeology explanation of Native Americans the Kensington rune stones in Minnesota that the Vikings had come here the black Egyptian hypothesis when I was in graduate school this book called black Athena was published if the Egyptians were actually black and that the you know sort of Western white male dominance of history had written them out of the past so you know this was a whole alternative history alternative archaeology Piltdown man Thor Heyerdahl and his hypothesis that the Polynesian islands were colonized by South Americans who went west went east to west that's since been debunked but that that's yet another one of these things South American archaeology Olmec statues seem to have like African features on them so maybe Africans went directly across to South America so there's letting an Erich von däniken Sakurai's Sitchin most of these graham rejects in this book to your credit so you're a good skeptic too but but for an outsider to an anthropologist from Mars who steps into this thing cold doesn't know anything it's like well they oh they're all alternative which is the right one and how do we know and so what what the way it works in science is is you know the default position is the sceptical position we assume your hypothesis is not true not not just you anybody's hypothesis it's like that the clewd nate napier hypothesis that was widely published it was widely covered in mainstream scientific journals and popular science magazines like Scientific American and it has not fared that well over the last decade or so it's still around it's still debated but that's the so you put it in them in the mainstream through peer-reviewed journals and then you go to conferences and you have it out and and that's kind of where we end up with well this is what we think is probably true for now and then all these other people out here if they don't jump in and into the pool where everybody is then there's no way for an outsider to know whether these alternative things have any validity or not other than they make a compelling case in a popular book yes but but what did the mainstream scientists think so and the problem is is that so a couple of specific things like what I call pattern isset II the tendency to find meaningful patterns and random noise you know the Virgin Mary on a grilled cheese sandwich or whatever those are fun examples but you know taking like pictographs Peck detective glyphs and then comparing them to constellations like here we have some constellations on your roof here yeah it's easy in the mind's eye to find a pattern the question is did those people really think 10,000 years ago 5,000 years so this is a field called archaea are the director of the Griffith Observatory here in LA this is what he does and sometimes the pattern he thinks the patterns mean something sometimes they're totally random and or you take something like the pyramids you know as as Graham knows there's you know a hundred theories about the pyramids and there's the mainstream one and then there's all these other ones and this is why people like the director they're you know house he just can't deal with them all you know so just as one example I used in my book why people leave were things that you know one guy calculated that if you divide the height of the pyramid into twice the side of the base you get the number close to pi and then he just sort of works all these different numbers so therefore it's cosmically significant well Richard Hoagland was like the best example right I would find these patterns and Mars and I can claim that like if you go from this rock to half the distance and like why would do that like that doesn't make any sense he would create these patterns right and that's okay I mean all scientists look for patterns so like to take climate change either the earth was getting warmer it's not either it's human-caused or it's not there's a pattern in the data you can see the pattern the question is is the pattern real so this is why there we call it we use the term climate consensus it's not a democracy it's not like we voted on it decided this is the truth it's that independently all these different scientists working in different fields publishing in different journals come to the same conclusion so we call this Concilium science or convergence of evidence science that it's not like these guys are meeting on the weekends going boy we got to combat those you know those crazy right-wingers with our data they're independently coming to these conclusions so that lifts our confidence that yeah there's probably something to their theory such that there's now so much data converging to this you'd have to deconstruct every one of those independent lines so then you have things like what I call the problem of the residue of anomalies in any field there are residue of anomalies we can't explain so like UFOs for example you apologists and media skeptic agree that 90 to 95 percent of all the UFO sightings are explained by natural phenomenon venus swamp gas airplanes geese whatever they know that and so we're really only talking about 5% like how do you explain that one right there in 1967 on June 3rd it yeah I don't know no one knows that one and then from there they billed well that's my case right if you can't explain that then I I have a cake no no no well that's very different than what we're talking about totally relevant because I think almost all of your argument is based on this residue of anomalies what we call a God of the gaps argument if you scientists can't explain you know this particular Rock right here or that particular petroglyph and I'm going to count that toward my compilation of data to support my hypothesis of a lost civilization no one is saying that the scientists can't explain it what would essentially particularly Randol with this series of images as shown is that what you have here is something that can be explained by rapid rapid melting of the ice caps and Randall stepping off you are just okay we go ahead if you want what they do say I mean depends do you mean by rapid you know I mean a glacial dam that as our geologist will tell us a moment that that breaks that's fairly rapid mm-hmm back in 96 it was a very popular book called the Noah's Flood this was a serious book by two geologists that said it was the rapid filling up of the Black Sea that swamped over the civilizations living on the edges of this and that that's where the noachian flood story comes from okay so it was widely debated and so on and since it hasn't fared that well but that's fairly rapid I mean we're talking over the course of weeks or months or years to a geologist you know thousands of years is rapid mm-hmm so you know an impact by a comment happens in a couple hours or a couple of days or weeks versus a couple of months or years what do we mean by rapid okay well what are you saying then okay so what are you saying about their theories in particular okay so the problem I think Graham that the deepest problem is is much of your theory depends on negative evidence that is I don't accept the mainstream explanation for the pyramids the Sphinx the Machu Picchu whatever ELISA I talk about that let's just talk about this specific subject because it's going to take a long time just together all right yeah all right so my final point is is the falsifiability one that is what would it take to refute your hypothesis like for me the answer would be like if gobekli tepe turned out to be what you think it might have been the place where advanced ancient civilization once inhabited or they used it where are the metal tools where are the writing the the examples of writing perhaps a decision was made not to use metal perhaps the decision was made that errors had taken place that that that in reinventing civilization we shouldn't perhaps go down quite the same route as before perhaps writing isn't always an advance perhaps perhaps an oral tradition which which records in memory which enhances and uses the power of memory may be a very effective way of dealing with information we regard writing as a as an advance and I can see lots of reasons why it is in advance but if we put our self into the heads of ancient peoples maybe it wasn't I mean there's a tradition from ancient Egypt that the god Thoth god of wisdom was the inventor of writing but we have we have a text in which he is questioned by a pharaoh who is who is saying well actually have you really done a good thing by introducing writing because then the words may roam around the world without wise advice to to put them into into context and what will happen to memory when people who saw so there might be a choice not to know that all right but but then what do you mean by advance when you say there used to be a lost advanced civilization before ten thousand years ago well it's just what was here for a second because what we know for a fact is that the carbon dating in all the area around gobekli tepe is somewhere around twelve thousand years is that correct eleven thousand six hundred years ago the earliest they found so far but a great deal of Gobekli Tepe is still underground right so at least what we know is someone built some pretty impressive structures eleven thousand six hundred years ago seven thousand years before stone so when when that story broke this is long before you came along with your book it was controversial in the sense that we thought hunter-gatherers could not do something like this because to do that you need a large population with a division of labor and so forth and so what the response to archaeologists was well I guess we were wrong about hunter-gatherers maybe they can do more stuff than we gave them credit for so why is that not a reasonable hypothesis versus they were it was actually advanced but we mean something completely different by advanced not writing and metal and technology we mean I don't know what you mean what do you mean well I mean we have we have a body of archaeology which goes on for decades which is saying that megalithic sites for example gigantea in Malta or haggarium and Hydra megalithic sites date to no older than five and a half to six thousand years old GGG Tiye would push it close to 6000 years old and there no older sites than that and therefore that the megalithic site is associated with a certain stage of neolithic development then along comes gobekli tepe 7,000 years older than Stonehenge incredibly sophisticated site very large scale I mean Klaus Schmidt sadly he's passed away I spent three days working the site with him he was very generous to me he showed me a lot he talked to me a lot and he said basically 50 times as much as they've pretty excavated is still is still under the ground that there's hundreds and hundreds of giant stone pillars that they've identified with ground-penetrating radar he's not even sure if they're ever if they're ever going to excavate them but by all accounts we are looking if we take what's still under the ground into account we're looking at the largest megalithic site that's ever been created on earth and it pops up eleven thousand six hundred years ago with no obvious background to it it just comes out of nowhere no tomatoes that's rather bad that we know of but to me that's it that's immediately a rather puzzling and an interesting situation and I would be remiss as as an author and an enquire into these matters if I didn't take great interest in that the sudden appearance seven thousand years before Stonehenge of a megalithic site that Dwarfs Stonehenge to me that's a mystery and it's really worth inquiring into we love to put it into perspective that's more than two thousand years older than what we now consider to be the building of the Great Pyramid of Giza in comparison to us to then so between our time now in 2017 and the construction the Great Pyramid you're talking about two thousand years earlier than that and that is unbelievable when you're talking about seven thousand years before what we thought people were doing okay but but my point was that instead of before we go down the road of constructing a lost civilization that was super advanced but different from our idea of event why not just attribute to these fully modern hunter-gatherers who had the same size brains we have and so on that they were able to figure out and do this we just underestimated their abilities so why did Allah just tell us for so long hum togethers couldn't do it and we needed agricultural nations that could generate surpluses that could pay for the specialists but that was so now with archaeologist is saying well I guess we were wrong about hunter-gatherers well they might be wrong about hunter-gatherers or there might be another civilization that they had not discovered that has been on earth lost civilizations are not such an extraordinary idea I mean nobody knew that the Indus Valley Civilization existed at all until some railway work was done around more enjoyed ro and in 1923 suddenly a whole civilization pops up out of the woodwork that's just never been taken into account before the 1920s we still can't read its script you know the idea that we that we come across that another turn of the Spade reveals information that causes us to reconsider not just was it hunter-gatherers or agriculturalists but perhaps something bigger than this is involved or in between there that's not that's not such an extraordinary idea I get it that mainstream archeology doesn't want to go there but that's my job I don't I don't think that that that's correct they would be happy to go there if there's evidence for it by what you just said they now fully accept the Indus Valley civilizations how did that happen if they were dogmatically close minded I don't say that they would dogmatically close minded about that the evidence the massive amount of evidence that came up with the discovery of Mohenjo daro harappa Dholavira and other and other such sites is very difficult you have to be completely stupid to say that that's not a civilization Quebec Lee tap is a bit more nuanced you know we have stone we have stone circles we have some interesting astronomical alignments the world's first payant Lee North South aligned building maybe no definite again that's a pattern anything well I'm citing clash Smith you know well that's all right but I any of us who read back into history 10,000 years ago what we're thinking that they might have been thinking that's always a dangerous for anybody not just you all that's a good point who's Klauss my classmate was the original excavator of Gobekli Tepe he was the head of the German archaeological Institute dig at gobekli tepe he kindly spent three days showing me around the site and and really nobody's disputing the astronomical alignments of Gobekli Tepe they weren't particularly interesting to clash MIT but they're there and what is the alignment like how is it when you have a perfectly north-south north-south aligned structure perfectly north/south to true north not magnetic north then you are dealing with astronomy by definition and there are other alignments of the sun's true north as established today or with the precession of the equinoxes okay it's the rotation axis of our planet okay so it to this day it points exactly the same place where it was pointing they always place the true north okay but back to this you know they don't want to go sure they want to go there they would happy be happy to go there case in point two weeks ago in the journal Nature the most prestigious scientific journal in the world there was published an article that humans are maybe Neanderthals lived in San Diego area a hundred and thirty thousand years ago this is an order of magnitude older than the Clovis days this was the Mastodon bones they found that so here's an example of how okay so clearly there's not some conspiracy to keep alternative people or fringe or or radical theories out it was published in peer-reviewed the most prestigious journal in the world there it is I'm bad what happened well hasn't there been a massive reaction to that and lots of lots of scathing remarks but that's normal that's how science works you get you get pushed back it's you gotta have a thick skin it's just the way you've got to have a thick skin that's that's for sure but maybe sometimes your skin is so thick that you just can't sense anything around well of course we don't want that either so what do you think is going on when you look at something like gobekli tepe that's covered covered up purposefully right well yes deliberately buried again I cite Klaus Schmidt he's the authority on this he's the excavator he absolutely adamantly insists that that site was deliberately buried and finally covered with a hill which is what gobekli tepe means in the turkish language pot-bellied hill yeah and you're talking about something give me the perspective of how large they believe it is currently as a current what's excavated at the moment is on a scale of stonehenge what's under the ground maybe as much as 50 times larger Jesus but Buckley template there no one lived there there's no tools there's no hole you're talking but if it's buried it should be presumably pottery there's no pottery no writing no articles of clothing no one lived there you're saying nobody lived there so watch their pottery why should pottery be in the field but why they go along and break some pots and stick it in the artificial something there trash when they it's something that would indicate it's different a different kind of people than what we're used to seeing in the archaeological record in other words it's just our nation that they poured in it's just stones and earth itself in other words grab for you to gain support for your theory amongst mainstream archaeologists they want to see positive evidence to overturn the old theory in other words the burden of proof is on the person challenging the mainstream I completely agree in every field but isn't there some proof that the the mainstream idea of these hunters and gatherers never had anything in what the theory was that would indicate these people were capable of building something you remotely the size of Gobekli tend to me that's the stunning beauty of this find it overturns our ideas of primitive hunter-gatherer it could not do this apparently they can it so that's one if possible yeah that's right so this I call this somebody else comes the bigotry of low expectations you know it's like we had this kind of low expectations for these hunter-gatherers maybe we should jettison that idea and in my own other field of history of religion it also threw that off because this apparently was a kind of a spiritual religious that's the wrong word they would have used actually nobody can nobody can know that that's right so but if it was this is that the big National Geographic article emphasized that maybe this is the very first religious spiritual temple ever built because they didn't live there so they went there for every isn't it also possible that this is signs that civilization was more advanced 12,000 years ago than we thought okay more advanced what again what do we mean by talking about the ability to construct an amazing structure well okay how big was it look at all these don't some of them are 20 feet tall yeah but some of them are smaller with-with-with astronomical alignments clash Schmitt called it a center of innovation he was intrigued by the way that agriculture emerges around gobekli tepe at the same time that Gobekli Tepe is created I mean he went on record with me perhaps he's not right but he went on record with me as saying that was the first agriculture these were the people who invented agriculture now to me the notion that a group of hunter-gatherers wake up one morning and invents megalithic architecture the world's largest megalithic site and at the same moment invent Agricole sure stretches credulity a bit and I think I would prefer to propose and I have proposed that what we're looking at is evidence of some kind of transfer of technology that people came into that area who had other knowledge and that that was applied and perhaps they mobilized the local population around this site perhaps that's precisely why we see agriculture developing there so perhaps that's the skill that's being passed on but I don't see anything particularly ok the stonework is spectacular but that that's not any more advanced and a few sent a few millennium afterwards but you're talking about something 20 feet stone that we know there were 100 gathers couple hundred people can move multi-ton stones there's no mystery in moving the stones I start moving 20-ton stones in Indonesia today but maybe that culture still exists you also know that the carving and the outside is extremely complex is three-dimensional carving okay but you know that means do you know that means at Lascaux at thirty thousand years ago has magnificent cave paintings with three dimensions but that's painting you know the thing hold on a second do you know what I'm saying when I say three-dimensional carvings like the Venus no the carvings were on the outside meaning they didn't carve them into the rock they carved away the rock around them which is pretty sophisticated stuff for hunter-gatherers and they're doing this on these 20-foot tall stone columns I mean it's pretty impressive stuff okay but they're the assumption is that they couldn't have figured this out we know from modern societies where say Australian Aborigines in one generation they go from stone tools to fly in airplanes the brains are quite capable of doing these amazing planes without somebody introducing an airplane yeah you could you're actually making his argument form no no it's not that much of a reach to carve stone people have been carving stones but the entire archeological opinion on megalithic sites for decades before this was precisely that it was beyond their ability and now the mainstream has changed okay well it's let's sort the very least a little shift let's pause for a moment let's pause for a moment so for sure we all agree human beings made this yes okay even though they are alien so the argument it's not whether or not aliens mated the argument is whether or not humans made it that were sophisticated well they're clearly sophisticated enough to make this incredible structure that is is some sign of some sort of civilization and my belief so yeah it is it's a structure I agree with gran that we've again undersold who these people were my friend Jared Diamond goes to Papua New Guinea he talks at the opening chapter of Guns Germs and Steel how smart these people are that live out there in nature and what it takes to survive well sure he wouldn't last an hour you know from LA he wouldn't last an hour with his Papua New Guinean friends out there in the in the wild because he doesn't know how to survive and they've been information so generation after generation very smart okay so it's not it's not a problem of intelligence and it's ER okay so here's the other thing we don't know is that there might be lots more of these sites and where there's there are visited one of them Kara hunt Fe you've got you've got the t-shaped bill is sticking out the side of a hill in the farmers backyard I mean I I think we're actually at the beginning of opening up this inquiry not at the end of it before you okay why not just say we don't know this is a spectacular mystery you leave it at that right why write a book well you guys aren't gonna fulfill it all again you guys on the mainstream side won't speculate and won't explore I don't claim to be an archaeologist I'm not a scientist I'm an author it's my job to offer an alternative point of view and to offer a coherent Lee argued alternative point of view and I must say Co Beckley Tepe strikes me as a gigantic [ __ ] mystery and a mystery that is worthy of exploration from a point of view that may not satisfy you oh well satisfy me you and your you and your colleagues and I don't I don't I certainly don't have to satisfy you or them like you're opening chapter with Schmidt I thought I really loved the the kind of conversational style you had with Schmidt in the book where he's dialoguing where Schmidt goes and look at this and then he says but but but what wait what's that again that is like a little bit like Columbo like wait I have just one more quick just one more question and you know that mystery kind of thickens that's perfectly okay that's great I mean that's that's what science is all about is uncovering mysteries that we then have to figure out so there's always more mysteries but that doesn't mean that's not positive and it's in favor of a particular theory like a lost civilization it's just we can't explain this full-stop yeah we certainly can't explain it and you can't explain it by saying that we underestimated hunter and gatherer well why not we know they made it whatever you want to call them well we know humans made it that's right we know you haven't made but whenever you want to climb but why do they believe that people were only hunters and gatherers 12,000 years ago because they didn't have any evidence the contract right this is evidence to the contrary I agree so you agree that there weren't other hunter and gatherers okay but there's there's several stages in between just you know 12 people living out in the jungle by themselves sure us you know there's like a whole bunch of different I would say that Gobekli Tepe is a gigantic stage well we don't okay they didn't live there so we have to figure out well where where were they living and what was there so that that has to be excavated well the only meanwhile what you're saying is that we shouldn't speculate at all because I mean mainstream archeology mainstream archaeologists speculating when saying it's definitely was hunter-gatherers who did this that's also a much more of a reach okay but not okay it may they may be more than hunter-gatherers they may have been partially settled there's you can have any kind of number of state what you can't apparently have is the possibility of a transfer of Technology from people who are really masters of that technology or whether when they came in but where are these people where's well you're dealing with let's find their homes I don't know I don't know that their homes matter with their homes even survive after 12,000 years I'm not sure trapped by what survives there's something - its trash and tools we've got gobekli tepe it confronts us it challenges the mainstream model I think it's reasonable to consider the possibility that there was something more than just hunter-gatherers involved here in creating this extraordinary place that's all I've done it seems to me that - to say hunter-gatherers could build this I'm not wouldn't be opposed the idea that they're hunting and gathering but it does certainly imply a lot leisure time yes a lot of leisure time well we know hundred yet sorry that's okay looks like well again if we place this back particularly within that that climate zone at eleven thousand six to twelve thousand thirteen thousand years ago whatever it turns out to be we're dealing with an extremely demanding and challenging climate which which wouldn't necessarily to my mind be conducive to the emergence of a settled culture that would be capable of undertaking a project on this scale and as somebody who's built a lot of things and moved quite a few heavy weights in my time I I find it the the idea sort of perplexing to me that they would be what I had what I would have to ask is what is their motive what is their motive for undertaking a project on this scale because it's an enormous project and to move a 20-ton block of stone is really a challenging task to undertake today today well without without you know you know the infrastructure of of large machines and so forth but to do it by hand it would be an enormous undertaking and and I you know to me it's like when are they having time to hunt and gather when you're engaged in a project of this scale but we know hunter-gatherers have way more free time than modern society people do that's the one thing we've learned is that it's a pretty good way to make a living actually they have a better berry diet than we have this has been you know the Neanderthal diet right they have a better varied diet and a lot more free time yeah but that's a lot less stress we knew that all along about hunter-gatherers when we were saying they couldn't build megalithic science but to do it where the environment is undergoing rapid changes to which adaptations would be extremely challenging and we know those changes are going on all over the planet we know that sea levels are right rapidly rising over a period of a few thousand years from from a c-stand low of about 400 feet up to the present level we also know that that by ODIs were shifting dramatically all over the planet the effects of the Younger Dryas were global pretty much that is I think the emerging consensus now that that both hemispheres north and south were being affected by the climate changes of the Younger Dryas so what we're doing is replacing this this phenomena this this project within this context of these extremely challenging times in which you know adaptation to the environmental changes could easily be the the all-consuming challenge of the times I'm just finding it difficult to imagine a disconnect to see this disconnect between a project of this magnitude and the motive for doing it during a time when obviously the environment could be posing serious constraints upon people's ability to function in that all right Randall we don't even know the motives of the Easter Islanders and no we don't raise these huge debt but we know they did it but as I dad become a central question know what something had to have motivated but let's get back to the Beckley capita piece so we so let's just be real clear we know there are humans we know that it's at least 12,000 years old and we know that the real dispute here the real question is did these people have structures and did they have agriculture we know that there were human beings they were essentially modern human beings so were the hunter-gatherers or did they have struggles exactly tappy they didn't have structures and they didn't have agriculture Tepe they did so the fact that they were able to build something so monumental what kind of a leap is it at all to think that these people could figure out how to plant food and figure out how to make a house well I mean again if you look back thirty thousand years forty thousand years to these cave paintings these are pretty sophisticated yes beautiful they are clearly they had abstract reasoning they could think from the concrete to the abstract and so on it's not a big reach to go from that to moving stones around I'd say there's a big difference between painting and engraving on the cave walls creating the largest megalithic site that's ever been built on earth I think there's a bit huge difference between those two I mean nobody would compare the construction effort on on Stonehenge or gigantea with with cave paintings I agree with you the cave paintings are magnificent I've had the privilege to visit many of the painted case work and as Picasso said when he came out of Alaska we have invented nothing I mean they were this that was that modern human mind symbolic mind at work there but this is another matter this is a large-scale construction project that's going on and it's not just a construction person so like huts it's hundreds and hundreds of very very large megalithic pillars which have to be mobilized brought to the place you know organizing a workforce in order to do that even that requires preparation and time and learning and practice is not something that you wake up one morning it just can do overnight you think that the paintings are more impressive than gobekli tepe yeah or at least comparable yes I think that's absolutely to convey three dimensionality on a 2d plane that that's what because ohm is like wow that's a crow it's like developing perspective and to use the natural shape that's it's but it's not create a three-dimensional perspective look is it that's pretty abstract comparing apples and pears it's not a construction project no but I don't think it's even remotely that's what I'm saying is that it doesn't take a huge leap of the imagination to think these people were pretty smart they know that they were smart we know what they're smart just because the fact that those construction projects were done by who by whoever we know that they were smart whoever built Gobekli Tepe was clearly intelligent whoever made those 3d carvings clearly they were intelligent but to think that someone drawing on cave paintings is more impressive not just 20-foot stone columns with three-dimensional carvings on them of a lot of animals that weren't even native to the to the region that's the case is that these paintings are like say thirty forty thousand years old to Quebec Lee Tepe so there's tens of thousands of years to develop more that we were very likely to find more archaeological and yet up till now we haven't found that we haven't we haven't found all of that intermediate material which see if I if I could actually see that intermediate material between the Upper Paleolithic cave art and gobekli tepe if I could see the gradual evolution and development of skills I wouldn't need to invoke a lost civilization the survivors of a lost civilization who've my those skills elsewhere to come in and teach those skills at gobekli tepe but it still looks to me like a transfer of Technology unless you can show me that evolutionary process whereby I can understand how this group of hunter-gatherers became equipped to create this giant site where they practiced where they learn the skills to move the stones to organize the workforce to feed and water the workforce in a rather dry place all of that is actually quite a logistical challenge yep and obviously somebody met it somehow some humans yes/no questions did they have structures did they have agriculture did they have some sort of a community where they lived on the savage location I would I would imagine so with that would push back the time where we thought that there was a civilization that would push them back into a realm of at least stead stepping out of the hunter-gatherer stage mid as you show in your book he did not go as far as you that you certainly know right now buddy you admitted it's a mystery okay what that would be the scientific approach I don't know what it is great mystery let's just wait and see versus I'm gonna postulate a lost civilization nothing wrong with that crap it's a free country and scientists do this all the time as you've mentioned there's a there's a rather humorous thing which I have to say actually I might even ask Jamie to pull up the the couple of images of fingerprints of the gods that's the book I'm best known for and when I published fingerprints of the gods in 1995 essentially I was saying civilization is much older and much more mysterious than we thought and I was ridiculed for proposing that 2013 one of the magazines that ridiculed me New Scientist magazine in Britain publishes as a cover story picture of Gobekli Tepe and the headline civilization is much older and much more mysterious okay fair enough and and and scientists do do this I mean I'd followed paleoanthropology for my whole adult life and one of the big mysteries is how did we get a big brain how do we get to abstract reasoning from from say what chimps can do no one knows the doubling of the human brain size over period of a million years because no one knows every couple years there's a new book out it's I'm a change it was the throwing arm cooking cooking meat you know meat is another big one a Harvard perfect meat okay and these books come and go and some of them have legs some of them don't and it's just the way it goes and then there's Terence Mckenna it's pretty obvious it was psychedelics yeah that's terence mckenna's but that switch the brothers the old Julian the Julian Jade's no bicameral mind not at all this is David Lewis Williams who's professor of anthropology at the University of Witwatersrand in South Africa his neuropsychological theory of cave art all kudos to Terence Mckenna and food of the gods he what a brilliant thinker what a brilliant alternative thinking but David Lewis Williams at the University of Witwatersrand had been working on this problem since 1973 and his his argument is that the remarkable similarities that we see in rock and cave art all around the world are explained that we're dealing with a shamanistic art shamanism involves altered states of consciousness this is typical visions of altered states of consciousness and it seems to have a company to great leap forward in human behavior and you've covered this in your book I covered it in supernatural natural those did you know Richard Rams theory he's a highly regarded scientist at Harvard so it is the meat-eating guy then you know it's taking me writing the protein that's what gives you the energy to build a huge brain all right so now this guy is starting with ten ten pluses on his side he's Harvard and already respected and even so his book was like well it's probably a series of different events and a bunch of different factors that's right it could be a different thing so let's get away from gobekli tepe and ancient civilizations and let's get back to the geological evidence which Randall you're an expert at and this is one of the main things that you had a dispute with and this is one of the reasons why we got everybody together now what are what is your thoughts on what Randall and Graham proposed specifically Randall who is much more on the geological side of things yeah well this is why I brought in my phone a friend right geologist so but but by way of background after your show I thought you know this let's just give this a fair hearing this is what we do so this will be our cover story and I think the end-of-summer issue I hope that mark diff'ent is going to be doing some more work on the draft of his article for you that is up online because that article is full of [ __ ] statements about me which had demonstrated ly false yeah happy to I'm happy to engage with some particular issues well I have to put on my reading glasses and that whatever articles are lie this has not been published it but it claims it claims that it's a draft of the article that will appear in a 2017 edition of skeptic magazine so pull it up grandma why don't we yeah let's let Graham go over for so we'll have mark on so here's and magician's of the Gods by the way Michael I mean you say that you're here to you know to respectfully aim to get at the truth yeah there is conjuring lost civilization from yeah let me let me just get to the top of this I've got it here just bear with me a second so amongst the words in mark defense article he's accusing me of duping the public he's saying that I'm public enemy number one he's accusing me of arm waving I might I do we're by arms pontificating well my grandfather was a pretty administer of the church a little interest in peer-reviewed research claimed that no academic would debate that's utter [ __ ] I had a debate with Zahi Hawass he's a leading Egyptian Egyptologist back in 2015 there was not my fault that Zahi Hawass walked out on that debate I can play the video if you like a minute and a half of Zahi Hawass lambasted me and then walking out and refusing to debate further so it's [ __ ] to say I don't debate or I'm not willing to debate and finally he says that I'm conning a hellacious number of people into buying his books now how can we get any dialog going when somebody begins like that okay then would you like some further bear with me because I just have to scroll down and I don't have a mouse I don't have a mouse so Hancock and Carlson claim to several times that a cadet no academic would debate them not true I'm accused of doing an about-face since since fingerprints of the guards are my I mean are my views not allowed to evolve with with new evidence is that somehow crime on my part let me just finish then a cheap shot you know he cites his Kamara and and and and accuses me of not real not having the scientific knowledge to issue deal with issues of gravitation now it's true that hey Suz Kamara who is a descendant of the Incas who has worked 70 years on the megaliths of sacsayhuamán whose father before him are Fredo Gemara worked 70 is true that he's got a way out theory about gravitation thing is I state in my book that it's a way out theory what I go on to say quoted in the attack is that however this isn't the part of his theory I'm interested in where I feel he is solidly persuasive is in his observations of the anomalous character of the monuments of the add these etc et-cetera default doesn't cite that he just presents me as buying what his sous Gemara says I mean if that's a standard that you're gonna have in skeptic magazine you have a serious problem and then go back Lee Tepe he contends that Gobekli Tepe is too advanced to have been completed by hunter-gatherers and must have been constructed by a more advanced civilization well no that's not what I say I say it was constructed by hunter-gatherers but that they were advised and supported by people who had knowledge of this kind of work beforehand getting a war I think it's very different I'm not saying it was constructed by I'm saying that a group of people settled amongst hunter-gatherers and transferred some skills for them he says that he quotes me Hancock makes the following stunning claim quote our ancestors are being initiated into the secrets of metals and how to make swords and knives I do not make that claim I'm reporting that this claim is made in the Book of Enoch that is not my claim then what else you know I think that the explanation well I'm being misrepresented by your author here if he wants to represent me if he accuses me of cherry-picking he shouldn't here's a beautiful one he cites Klaus Schmidt on the on on the character schmidt makes a salient point almost as if he anticipated Hancock's book quote fabulous or mythical creature creatures such as centers or the Sphinx winged Bulls or horses do not yet occur in the iconography and therefore in the mythology of prehistoric times they must be recognized as creations of the high cultures which arose later well [ __ ] [ __ ] [ __ ] you've just been talking about the painted caves go to Chauvet Cave you'll see a lion man holy science start a lion man carved out of carved out of mammoth ivory go to go to shove a bison man straddling lion woman her right arm is transferring is transforming into a into the head of a lion so certainly these mythical creatures did exist in the Upper Paleolithic and it's rubbish to say that they didn't I mean how can I go on the teapot oh yeah okay so he's he's taking issue with me because I suggest that the vulture on pillar 43 and enclosure D is representing the tea teapot asterism of the constellation of Sagittarius and he goes and gives us little things of Uncle Sam and some other thing that he shows if you know anybody can impose any image on on anything well it's not my fault that a couple of academics who didn't even talk to me and had nothing whatsoever to do to me have published a major study in the I quoted again the Mediterranean archaeology and our qiyamah tree a peer-reviewed journal where they make precisely that identification so at least I'm not alone at least there are there are peer-reviewed credential scholars who also agree that that figure is representing the teapot asterism within the constellation of Sagittarius no reference to that shops opinions we're supposed to not go into the minutiae eye because they've already been dismissed by a study by Larissa sand mafia do far from it that study doesn't dismiss shock at all none of that study was done on the body of the Sphinx itself it was done in the valley and the Sphinx temples and by the way the dates are extremely troubling some of them could push it as far as 3600 BC that the work was done or as early in some cases as 1000 BC I don't think that study proves anything and and and so I'm supposed to clarify what you do believe in so that we don't misrepresent you so you don't think that the lost civilization instructed them on the use of metals I don't know I don't see evidence for that correctly tell me would you put that in the book then I didn't put it in the book I was quoting the Book of Enoch it's a huge passage on them on the Book of Enoch it's made not me who's saying that is the Book of Enoch the same I understand but but why all I require your diff'ent to do is to state that Hancock is citing the Book of Enoch he didn't do that disingenuous is that the polite word you guys use but more than bears in genuis it's it's a character so what the question is is why would what's the context of including that in your book I forget well the God the context is that actually I was I was criticizing zecharia sitchin that's primarily what I would say you don't think that a lot of civilization instructed the people who built Gobekli Tepe on the use of metals and tools I see no evidence for that I see gobekli tepe I can't I can't go say they instructed them on the use of metals and tools unless I can find everything else Oh what did they do we don't know generated agriculture they created a center of excellence around which I don't agree not the day who built Gobekli Tepe the lost civilization that advised them that you think happened yeah what did they do if they they've come through a cataclysm they're survivors pew in number this is my scenario you don't have to accept it I'm sure you don't they settle amongst take refuge amongst hunter-gatherers I mean I don't know you're probably quite have some survival skills I don't have many I mean if if we would have a comet impact in the world today which were to take out all the underpinnings of modern civilization I might go settle with hunter-gatherers because they're the people who know best how to gathers but I might be able to transfer some of my knowledge to them I might be able I might have something that I could transfer to them and I might have very strong reasons why I might not choose to transfer all of it but it's Owen in other words perhaps this is what happened okay maybe but how is that different from Zecharia Sitchin's that well the aliens advised it well I think it's massively different especially since Zechariah Sitchin has his aliens arriving here in 1970s NASA Technol weirdly he wrote his book in the 1970s I mean I don't I I I don't go there I don't make that I don't make that suggestion I'm simply saying perhaps there's been a forgotten episode in human history perhaps it's fingerprints are present at a number of sites around the world but perhaps the extremely defensive arrogant and patronizing attitude of mainstream academia is stopping us from considering that possibility and therefore I campaign to get that possibility considered and I try to do so with as louder voice as possible well you're doing it it doesn't disturb you that you mean you run skeptic magazine and someone publishes something like that it mean that goes against the whole idea of critical thinking I mean it's it's misrepresenting his quotes misrepresenting his perspective his point of view it's it's really disingenuous this is one reason we're doing this so we could get his but why would anybody write something like that and why would you guys publish something like that without checking the facts we are this was not supposed to be posted online person who will do that a useful contributor to your side of the debate well one of the reasons we're here is to get your point of view exactly right all right so you're saying that there's no evidence that any lost civilization exists only that no I'm not saying that I'll say fingerprints of their their influence on later peoples we do know existed I'm saying there are physical objects I say gobekli tepe is one of them I say the Sphinx is another but see this is that argument from either ignorance or personal incredulity I don't accept the mainstream or I can't think of how this pyramids could have been built therefore it was built by somebody else through some other technology that's not what I'm saying just post dating it just thinks is older I do go with Robert Chuck's argument on the geology I'm also very interested in the astronomy of the site and again I have slides that I could show on this if we have if we have time you might want to get into ed crops criticism of the Orion correlation and why he says it's up to upside-down I can talk to you about that you know we do I mean I I know it corrupts argument about that and that was from the 90s I think what's your thoughts on Robert Chuck's conclusion I don't that's not something I know any much about laughter it's a huge factor knows about show and he rejects him on the basis of that paper yeah and that paper really doesn't date the Sphinx it works with dating of large blocks in the valley and the Sphinx temples there's not a single sample taken from this week all right then who dated it who dated it Liberty Sabathia and then why why do mainstream archaeologists not accept the older date for the Sphinx and in the answer is because they have a whole bunch of other evidence that points to the date that they think the answer is very to your question is very simple mark Lehner and Zahi Hawass put it on record back in 1992 when John Anthony West and Robert Schoch first presented the rainfall erosion evidence on the Sphinx and what later and Hawass said is the Sphinx can't possibly be 12,000 plus years old because there was no other culture anywhere in the world that was capable of creating large-scale monumental architecture like this show me one other structure that's capable of doing that well they could say that in 1992 Michael but they can't say it in 2017 not since gobekli tepe if you don't mind Graham could you please four people so this could be a standalone thing people could understand what is the argument about the Sphinx the enclosure the Sphinx and dr. Robert Schoch from Boston University who's a geologist what was his conclusion what Jacques is saying is that the Sphinx and the trench out of which the Sphinx is cut bears the unmistakable evidence of precipitation induced weathering weathering caused by exposure to a substantial period of heavy rainfall and that is particularly pointed out in the vertical fissures in the trench they see the Sphinx itself has been subject to so much restoration over so many years that it's difficult for people to even see the core body of the Sphinx today but it's these you can see the vertical fissures even down at the back of there that is that is what Jacques counts as rainfall precipitation induced weathering heavy rainfall which is selectively removing the softer layers and leaving the harder layers in place and the problem is we don't have that rainfall in Giza in Egypt four and a half thousand years ago you have to go back much earlier to get that rainfall that's the suggestion so that's the suggestion by Robert Schoch independently yes if your conclusion is totally independent Jacques disagrees with me on many things isn't as a matter of fact and and I disagree with him on many things but I think he's on the money on this so that alone would set back at least that one I mean it's pretty much established that the Great Pyramid of Giza was constructed about 2,500 BC right absolutely no doubt that a huge project went on at Giza around 2500 BC so your argument there not that the whole thing was that much older was that parts of it seemed to have been from an earlier civilization or at least that civilization far far earlier than I was I would say that the ground plan what we have at Giza the basic layout of the site was established in what the ancient Egyptians called Zep tepi the first time astronomically and geologically I and my colleagues suggest that the first time can be dated to the period of about twelve and a half to thirteen thousand years ago that that that was when the site was laid out because there's intriguing astronomical alignments of the great pyramids to the belt of Orion I know ed Krupp has a completely opposite view on this and of the Great Sphinx to the constellation of Leo rising due east housing the Sun on the equinox the astrological age of Leo again I have slides I can and that was aligned with the geological evidence that Robert Schoch comital eyes with the geological evidence the age of Leo pretty much exactly spans the Younger Dryas as a matter of fact and so the only argument against that at the time was that there were no other structures like that from 12,000 years correct and then Krupp said that the the Orion correlation wasn't real because it was upside down I'm a diggin into that now well first that's not the only argument it's that okay if the Sphinx is built or the layout for the whole thing is built in it's a ten eleven thousand years ago and then and then the pyramids are built you know 2500 BC what happened in between where all the people the trash the places where they live well there's a bunch of different styles of dated in between I would propose Michael something like a monastery which has a relatively small archaeological footprint is on the site I mean the idea of information knowledge and traditions lasting 4,000 of years within a religious system shouldn't be too absurd to us I mean Judaism is dealing with ideas that are already best part of 4000 years old if we go back to Ora the child ease and so on and so forth so that's all I'm suggesting really that the idea is preserved maintain that the survivor survived on the site but on something like a monastery which is which has got a very small archaeological footprint it is not high perhaps again one can only speculate and I think there's a lot of speculation on the archaeological side - one can only speculate perhaps having gone through a cataclysm perhaps they felt to blame for this wrongly or rightly I mean there are many many traditions in which humanity's behavior is implicated in the Cataclysm that takes place and perhaps they didn't want to switch civilization on completely right there perhaps they perhaps they waited passed down the knowledge through initiates enough was there to create a mystery because it's undoubtedly a mystery that the construction of the great pyramids the first huge pyramids in Egypt preceded only really by the Zozo pyramid at saqqara that the construction of the great pyramids is vastly superior to the construction of the pyramids of the 5th and 6th dynasty that follow it and that's a little bit counterintuitive that we have this collapse in skills one would have expected it to got better so it sounds like the work on the pyramid started already with a level of knowledge in half yes but ok so here's here's I would think about that there's a lot of perhaps seeing and maybe speaking yes well so you have a bunch of Egyptologists and archaeologists who have been working on this site for centuries this is one of the most you know ancient mysteries and so on and and so say let's say there's like 20 lines of evidence that point to built roughly around this time period here and then you come on and say okay but there's this one anomaly of the rain thing that in that there was only rain at this time now there's a huge gap you have one anomaly or line of evidence here and like 20 here we're talking about different structures so there's not a lot of evidence that points to the Sphinx being from a particular time period well he's saying like 12,000 right I'm saying the rainfall evidence suggests that alignment that its alignment with the constellation of Leo housing the Sun right dawn on the spring equinox it's an equinoctial marker nobody would dispute that would dispute that the ancient Egypt leaders I've stood on the back of the Sphinx at dawn on the spring equinox and believe me again I could show a picture its head lines up perfectly with the Rising Sun but no I don't think anybody even Krupp is disputing that it's a neck for notional market now here's the thing you're an ancient Egyptian you're building an equinox your marker in 2500 BC do you know what constellation is housing the Sun in 2500 BC I haven't run the little program well it's the constellation of Taurus so so logically if you're creating an equity option and the ancient Egyptians were not shy about making images of bulls plenty of them if you're making an equinoctial marker in 2500 BC we should created in the form of a bull not in the form of a lion you know that's the that's the puzzling issue and yet we do have a time when a lion constellation housed the Sun at dawn on the spring equinox and that is the period of the Younger Dryas okay I'd say that's a pretty big leap well I know you say that and your colleagues also and so now and then we have a gap of about five or six thousand years where there's nothing back to several articles that were published in the 80s and 90s this one is from from nature early 80s late quaternary history of the Nile and what it's discussing is the evidence that there was a major shift in the in the hydraulic regime of the Nile River it says between 20,000 and 12,000 years before present when Timberline into headwaters was lower vegetation cover more open than today the Nile was a highly seasonal braided river which brought mixed coarse and fine sediments down to Egypt and Sudan this cold dry interval had entered ended by 12,500 years before present when overflow from Lake Victoria and higher rainfall in Ethiopia sent extraordinary floods down the male main Nile and those floods have been documented to have been a hundred and twenty feet above the modern flood plain of the Nile any civilization or whatever you want to call it living along the Nile River at that time would have had to abandon whatever they were doing there in there in this regime does intensify hydraulic regime and it says it goes on to say it marked a revolutionary change to continuous flow with a superimposed flood peak so what happened is that there was a major environmental change that occurred right there around twelve thousand to twelve thousand five hundred years the dating could be adjusted somewhat since the early eighties but the point is made is that because of a major hydrological change major of educational cover change major environmental change this would have caused also imposed changes upon whatever culture was existing there or living there at the time now what we have is in the aftermath of that event we have basically the emergence of desert which now would require serious adaptation it's very likely to that these events could have also decimated the population at the time leaving basically no workforce and then over a period of two or three or four thousand years you find that that there's enough of a recovery that these kind of monumental structures can be renewed but it's clear from this and a lot of other studies studies in the eastern Mediterranean showing that there are SAP rappel layers which is caused which is basically material that has been washed in from the continental surface that has not oxidized it has essentially become rotten and carried in organic material carried in off of the continents by this enhanced regime of water flow actually forcing so much water that there was a freshwater lid on the eastern Mediterranean that caused a cessation in the the circulation between the upper waters and the lower waters reducing the amount of oxygen brought down to the to the lower waters and so you had these layers of mud that formed on the bottom of the Mediterranean that show this massive influx of fresh water flowing off of out of the Nile and off of the the Egyptian continent at this same time so clearly the evidence shows that there were made your climatic changes that occurred around this time it is not so speculative to to imagine that whoever whatever and we don't have to invoke any kind of a super advanced civilization but whatever cultures were there that were perhaps capable of carving blocks of stone transporting blocks of stone as they were at gobekli tepe during this time range would have been that their that their activity would have been interrupted to the extent that it might have taken millennia to recover to get to get the labor force necessary to undertake major monumental programs on the Giza Plateau so I think that that the if we assume this gradualist Excel yeah that's a fair question to ask were what happened in that interval but if there is a major climatic downturn and a major disruption of the the several patterns of whatever culture was already there then you know now we might have an explanation why there would be a gap especially if these events caused a bottleneck in the population of the area of course this is all speculative but it is not speculative to say that there is multiple lines of evidence suggesting these major even cataclysmic changes that engulfed that part of the world during that era so that could that could provide an explanation of why there is a gap there makes no sense well it does it because does it not only if you have to have the Sphinx in conjunction with 12,000 years ago in the lost civilization if you just say the rain water erosion on the Sphinx it is not an explanation for the Aged and that the traditional accepted age is what we think it is then there's no gap to fill yeah so really all we're talking about is we have again lots of evidence here one anomaly here I really want the anomaly thing to stick so I got explained the gap the gap is explained by environmental changes but what has the when is the lots of evidence other than a lot of assumptions there's a lot of maybes it's all I mean actually can you cite me a single contemporary inscription from the date that the Sphinx is supposed to have been made that refers to this I'm sorry can you cite a single contemporary inscription contemporary probably should be contemporary to the date that Egyptologists ascribed to the Sphinx in other words the reign of qu can you cite me a single inscription that talks about the Sphinx being built this is I don't study this area I don't know okay well you can't because there is no such description okay well so well one would have thought they would well maybe it's a giant project it's 270 feet long is 70 feet high it's carved out of solid rock nothing but you know references at all in the Old Kingdom you actually have to come down to the New Kingdom to get references to the Sphinx and inscriptions but you've already said that the pyramids were built at the time we think they were built not thousands I would say that a great deal of work was done on the pyramids at the time of 2500 BC I think the ground plan was laid out and we have like the Step Pyramid which is cruder and not as well designed as the other pyramids that's it that's a transitional stage at that time often argued to be a transitional stage have you've been to the Step Pyramid I'm sure now right and and been to Keys it though no I've never been to Giza oh dear well well they do make a very different impact I mean I've climbed the Great Pyramid five times I mean you're dealing with something orders of magnitude different in terms of what's required I mean this thing weighs six million but it's 481 feet high it consists of two and a half million individual blocks of stone it's a line to true north within three sixtieths of a single degree I mean to compare that to Zoser is really not a valid comparison at all what's more interesting to me is the radical decline that takes place in pyramid building skills in the fifth and sixth dynasty go to UNESCO to Pepi go to Teti at saqqara these are a shambles you can hardly even recognize them as a pyramid what happened to all that knowledge that's invested in the Great Pyramid why does Egypt devolve so rapidly why how do we explain this Christine amazing work that's done on the Great Pyramid unless there's a legacy of knowledge being attached to it okay so every archaeologist each Egypt Egyptian archeologist and Egyptian all knows everything you just said they did and they don't accept any of your arguments why no that's why I'm needed because somebody's got a counter is it just that they're close-minded and they follow sake of us and they never think for themselves you want to see it where's mine I'll play your one and a half minute video I'm sorry a wash refused any debate with me but but but all of them every one of the Egyptologists and archaeologists over the last two centuries and so on they know they're all dogmatically closed-minded and they can't see the arguments that clear as you or is it they're not convinced by your argument they're not convinced by my argument they genuinely and absolutely believe that their argument is right the notion that I'm proposing is apparently so preposterous to them that it isn't even worthy of consideration but it is worthy of insults and attacks on me on my integrity on my decency as a human being on my honesty all of those things get attacked you know because mainstream that's fine I'm ready for that and that by the way I know that archeologists academics constantly attack each other all the time I used to take this stuff personally but then I want to see what they do to each other the ravaging attack dogs yeah I let loose on on any new idea I sometimes wish scientists would would actually look for what's good in the new idea rather than what's bad but I get why they do that but in other words a gret that some young graduate student working in that area could make a name for himself by overturning you know my son was a young graduate student at the University of Cardiff studying Egyptology he got marked down in his degree because he proposed the possibility that the pyramids and the Sphinx might be or might have older origins he was impressed by my work it did him a lot of harm in his degree and if all this was true then a very few of my point would come down to my point which is if you go against the mainstream view your career does not progress as in Egypt I disagree I mean how an example how is it that we know anything that we know about Egypt no example from Egyptology if somebody who's gone against the mainstream view and being lauded for so doing well look we don't believe everything about it that we believe two centuries ago and it's a Napoleon's time right how did all that knowledge come about how did all the change and that science nobody begins with seanpauley on and the deciphering of the Rosetta Stone all right how was he able to do that against the mainstream there was no mainstream all right he was explains the mainstream has taken time to form and it's very solid now I mean Scientologists all sing from the same hymn book you'll find very little disagreement about the nation in every field but somehow or another Einstein managed to make an impact because he turned out to be right well Einstein and I don't know if I'm right but I'm gonna continue to oppose that mainstream somebody has that's a valid comparison Einstein and archeology would take paleoanthropology I mean it's a completely different feel now than a century ago how did that happen if no one ever accepts new ideas they do it happens all the time well they're being forced to accept exactly tepi and that's a new idea that you know where you were talking about things taking a long time and what seems like a long time to us is really a blink of the eye and in terms of archaeology we're in the middle of that we're essentially in the middle of that with things like gobekli tepe with forbes publishing an article about the Younger Dryas possibly being impacted by comets and that being one of the causes of a mass extinction right and when these are all mainstream ideas and I when Alvarez proposed the impact hypothesis for the demise of the dinosaurs in 1980 it was ridiculed and but he turned out to be right and then that became accepted right it takes time about what was the keep telling people are challenging there's not the key turning point the finding of the crater that's what that's what made the difference yeah so we're not argue with it I get where's your crater well this is where perhaps we need to bring in our phone a friend you know Malcolm lecompt one of the one of the Younger Dryas impact scientists I mean the the point the point being made is the following firstly that the primary impacts were on ice that they may have been as many as for impacts that they were on the North American ice cap some craters have been suggested for example very deep holes in the Great Lakes other craters have been and will be looked at by the team in the in the coming months whether it includes the Corozal crater they could cook or Bechet terrain and so on and so forth there are candidates that the crater has not been found yet but I would be surprised if a crater was easy to find when you know the impact is on two mile-deep Ison you know one of the biggest strewn fields in the world which is the Australian strewn tektites true--and field there's no crater associated with that but everybody accepts the impact proxies there's enough of them to justify that and that's what's going on around this impact hypothesis oh and a related question of that is and not the lost civilizations of the demise of humans but the megafauna extinction of North American mammals so this has been long debated before the impact hypothesis was proposed and the competing hypotheses were overhunting humans just hunted them to the point where not every last one to the point where the population numbers get too low and these species can't survive or climate change or both the climate change weaken the populations then the humans came over and over hunted them alright so and then the impact hypothesis is proposed okay so this was debated and it didn't fare that well because there were a lot of mammals and other species that didn't go extinct that you would expect from a massive impact like that it would have wiped out why why the selected species the kinds of species that humans would hunt are the ones that went extinct whereas these others didn't hunt the largest I there's no evidence that human humans hunted the Predators there is evidence that they hunted woolly mammoths but it's very sparse I mean you have no more than a dozen sites that show association between human hunting and mammoths and a lot of those like the Lubbock Lakes site is now being questioned what was presumably we've previously interpreted as being butchering marks on on the the mammoth remains there are now being reinterpreted as is possibly natural marks on the on the mammoth bones but it's a big stretch to go from oK we've got a dozen sites where we have mammoth remains and along with those mammoth remains we find a few Clovis spear points in two or three cases we actually find or they have found spear points embedded within the mammoth like in the RIP rib cage but it's a very large stretch to go from there to say that 10 or 12 million Willy mammoths or four species of mammoths on four continents were wiped out by paleo-indian hunters probably in bands of no more than two or three dozen you ever been to a head smashed in buffalo sight yes but but but that's a good example because no where did that go anywhere close to exterminating the species of American bison but that each site has its own particular explanation could be hunting could be a massive flood earthquake whatever there'll be a massive flood yes exactly I think they're known I would be in complete agreement it mean by massive there's a global versus you know local so for example there's 52 mammalian and genera went extinct in South America why would they go extinct in South America about the time that humans were moving down there hunting the Younger Dryas impact hypothesis includes South America there are impacts there there does in you know again the dating of the the migration of humans into South America is controversial at this point you know there is evidence that humans were there long before you know Paul Martin's idea of of blitzkrieg requires that the animals be so stupid that they couldn't they had no adaptive capabilities to the appearance of a new predatory species but whoa what is being demonstrated from examining the life ways of the Paleo Indian peoples is that they had very diversified diets and they were hunter-gatherers now why would they be choosing the largest most dangerous animals to hunt when they had such a proliferation of other smaller animals we know that they were foraging we know that they were eating seafood there was and and fishing because all of this is being found in the in the camps and then it certainly doesn't explain the extermination of you know the the cave bears the short-faced bears the camel ops the the giant beavers the giant armadillos the American Pleistocene lion the the the the ground sloths that were the size of giraffes four species of Provos aliens meaning mammoths extinct on four continents and to me like wait a second we don't we cannot we cannot invoke a modern example just to say well here is a Mallory well that's controversial also I mean they drove the battle birds extinct and passed eagle that in people with addle addle is killing off all the saber-tooth Tigers and here's another answer to one of your questions you were saying like why would some of the animals be alive well we know that the the asteroid that killed the dinosaurs 65 million years ago didn't kill everything right right that is a massive impact far bigger than anything we're talking about and many many animals survived that so we don't know why things survived and wide don't it could be proximity to the impact it could be that their food source wasn't removed it could be that their predators were wiped out and they managed to survive I mean there's a lot of animals that are still that are alive today in this continent like for instance a pronghorn antelope pronghorn antelope Dan Flores is a wildlife historian wrote an amazing book on it and we what he was talking about the American savanna during you know like 15,000 plus years ago there was all sorts of crazy animals millions of years ago that were like cheetahs that were running down animals at extreme speeds which is the reason why pronghorn antelope can run so much faster than any of their current predators something much faster than them was killing them and that was wiped out but they managed to make it one of the reasons why they probably managed to make it is because they're predators were wiped out it's not even the point Michael if it's overkill it's it's intriguing that the overkill occurs you know precisely in the Younger Dryas window because I think you'd agree that now the whole story of the peopling of them of the Americas is pretty much up for grabs I mean Clovis first was the dominant model for a very long time and under that model we're to envisage these Clovis hunters coming in across the Bering Land Bridge going down the ice-free corridor and then in like 800 years with their sophisticated fluted points they wipe out all the mammoths in in North America but now we know that humans have been coexisting and butchering mammoths coexisting with mammoths for thousands of years before that possibly tens of thousands of years before that I mean from evidence in Siberia I I don't only mean from evidence in Siberia I mean I can cite you from from nature magazine just recently a huge huge number that I don't think the Yukon is in Siberia is it no new ponds in North America Jack sank Mars you know the excavator of the Bluefish caves in the Yukon back in the 1970s where proposed was proposing that human beings had been in Americas at least 24,000 years ago his reputation was utterly destroyed his research funding was withdrawn he was given no access to grants he wasn't able to do his work he was heavily penalized and punished by the community and now just a few weeks ago we have the Smithsonian coming out and saying sorry we got it wrong Jack saint-mars was right all along Tom Dilla hair you know with his work in Monteverde the [ __ ] that he had to take I think we're we're in a very interesting time the peopling of the Americas is is really a paradigm that has absolutely been overthrown the notion of well you disagree with Smithsonian then which is fine I'll do the Mesa Verde you know it's an I so again it's an anomaly it's an isolated sight what do you where are all the sites between Clovis and Monteverde you wanna see Clovis was still first for thousands and thousands of years come on Mikey still first where are all the people between Clovis and my problem not my problem they're in Monte Verde and they're there in North America what's more likely than Tracy South American Indians and not in North America it's like it's like the nature paper by maybe people cross the ocean that that there were Neanderthals or humans in San Diego 130,000 years ago okay but when you look at that okay so they have mammoth bones it looks like they might have been broken in the length you know okay and the tools but they're not okay the tool we're kind of changing subjects here though oh no no it's going to try to quibble the evidence of nearly a human presence that's right you try to quibble it well not quibble well you couldn't like it you're quibbling it I think very specifically that's opposing what he just said the reason archaeologists don't accept earlier than Clovis a early 13 is massively it's massively accepted say Mesa Verde for in image why don't they accept Mesa Verde they do accept Mesa Verde as it is accepted like what you sure about this is why 24,000 years 15 plus possibly possibly significantly yeah significantly 15 is kind of the outside of the window that humans came across the Bering Strait that's possible not 24,000 clevis first not a hundred and thirty thousand years ago now if it turns out that that nature paper is right and that's confirmed then that does overturn the mainstream theory for sure but why would you this is not like your field of study why would you argue against the nature listen okay I'll just give you let's quote this Missoni ask profession Smithsonian slide number five today decades later the Clovis first model has collapsed okay based on dozens of new studies we now know that pre-clovis people's slaughtered mastodons in Washington State dined on desert parsley in Oregon made all-purpose stone tools that we're ice age version of the edge that's no 24,000 years down at the bottom Michael you know are you saying the Smithsonian are wrong on this Michael you're jumping to conclusions before you even read that you want to be right so badly you didn't read the part and other animals don't have on a second confirming that humans had butchered horses and other animals there 24,000 years ago it says it right there and you are arguing against two without even reading it which means you want to be right no no that's absolutely Brett's goodness I have no dog in this fight we started pointing at you being your published skeptic magazine and you have no dog in the fight you're asking me why don't mainstream archaeologists accept you should be skeptical if there's hens about okay call it whatever you want it goes back 11 through what do you think about what that says that there's evidence they butchered horses 24,000 years ago okay I would have to check the site on I haven't seen this article well now that you have seen it not my problem opposing this and you're saying there's no evidence you have needing article okay I'm not opposing anything I'm saying you certainly this is the reason why scientists accept these dates here because there's lots and lots of evidence for that is scientist in eleven thousand twelve that is not a scientist and you say you find one person that says 24,000 another one like two weeks ago it's not one person this is without really doing any research about and then and then the article is titled what happens when an archaeologist challenges mainstream thinking Smithsonian in the month of March okay Jax Hank Mars it was a brutal experience something that sank Mars once likened to the Spanish Inquisition at conferences audiences paid little heed to his presentation giving short shrift to the evidence etc etc etc result was always the same when he proposed that bluefish caves was twenty four thousand years old it was not accepted what the Smithsonian are saying is now this is accepted you need to get up to speed date of Michael okay my my archaeology friends like Jared Diamond who I just checked with on this who's at UCLA he certainly has a dog in the fight and any well he just says here's the problem for 50 years people proposed pre-clovis examples recites or evidence they never hold up they always the dating turned out to be incorrect this the carbon-14 was not calibrated right there was this there was that they never hold up if so essentially your yeah you lie for 50 years well you're quoting a friend who says the evidence hasn't held up before instead of quoting these articles with these scientists we're talking about the data that's showing the human beings butchered horses 24,000 years ago you're disputing it just because you talked to a friend I'm saying that that has to be confirmed that particular why are you against it I'm not arguing against certainly were no I'm just saying that what this is my right I feel you were arguing against it and saying that it's not the case and I don't like it and you seem to be if I'm correct you seem to be a Clovis first advocate but you put your reputation on the line and say you haven't I'm not gonna put a label on it I'm gonna say in the latest evidence that that overwhelmingly shows humans coming across the siberian straits into north america 11 12 13 14 15 thousand years that they definitely did then they definitely did that now what did they before what could push it back much earlier it would be if they came by boat okay so like where I live in Santa Barbara there are sites on the Channel Islands data go back 11 12,000 years ago and they came by boat now the problem is is well if they lived on the shores which is where the good fishing and eating is those are underwater and in short of doing good underwater archaeology which is hard to do inexpensive and most of it's probably gone we may never know so one of my beefs with archaeology actually is that 10 million square miles of the planet that were above water during the Ice Age are under water now and marine archaeology is still mainly looking at shipwrecks you know well it okay they do that because it's it's the place it's where the light is it leaves a big unanswered question at any rate so for the record it can I at least say that you completely oppose the Smithsonian's position on this that there has been no paradigm shift at this I haven't seen this alright I'm not aware of the horse fine from 24,000 years ago I am aware the 130,000 year date from the nature paper to have a slide on that too and and if okay but what's your circulation tools they're nothing like Clovis points it's just a big like hand rock that might have been used it might have been random sorry a big hand Rock is all there is before thirteen thousand years ago no I'm talking about the hundred thirty thousand year old we don't we don't need to talk about that well that that raises interesting questions was it Neanderthals was it Denisovans was it anatomically modern humans 130 raises interesting questions president is interpreted site because they are don't I'm not I'm not putting anything to that I'm just I'm saying yes that question just about the stone tools it's about how the bones were shattered and they believe the bones are shattered deliberately indicating that someone's trying to get at the marrow indicating or maybe or a tractor rolled over it you know a couple years no one excavated that's just speculation this was one of the immediately defined has been quibbled by the archaeological mainstream of course it's been published by the archaeological mainstream too and the rest of the mainstream is quibbling it's a whisper that plans that you said that can't happen we will say what can't happen that the mainstream won't allow you know radical ideas nature published it and the article the idea is being quibbled would not only it's okay nature certainly would not have published it if the evidence were not strong I accept that nature's not in the business of publishing you know fringy stuff it's it is it is a radical proposal but it's strong enough to justify publication in nature what's interesting to me is that the immediate reaction of the archaeological community is not say well what could this mean let's let's look into the implications of this I mean if there were Neanderthals or Denisovans in North America 130,000 years ago we have a whole new scenario building here that really should interest everyone instead of say instead of the first reaction is let's destroy this because it's really annoying let's get rid of it let's prove it's wrong let's suggest that it was a [ __ ] bulldozer or something like that maybe it was I don't know the work hasn't been hasn't been done yet but that instant sort of it's it's almost like an immune response to it to an idea that doesn't fit into the prevailing paradigm but other work the work in South America the Bluefish case work that's really not controversial anymore that's very widely accepted Clovis first is a discredited and abandoned position and I have something else to ask you actually concerning genetics and and DNA I'm sure you're well upon that I mean can you explain why we have a strong signal of Denisovan DNA in certain groups of South American Indians and in Australian Aborigines and Melanesians but that Denisovan DNA doesn't crop up in North American Indians how would we explain that if they all came through the Bering Strait I have no idea well it could be boats I mean this just happens to be something I don't know anything about okay so part of the problem of even doing this is that was your idea well here we are talking this is good but part of the risk is that you're gonna find something I don't happen to know about and then it's like you see I made my point what point that okay so in in like the history of the people in of America that that area there's always somebody that comes in with it's you know not Clovis it's this is that and rarely do they last why the dates were miscalibrated or whatever it's not just that scientists are closed-minded although they can be it's that the convergence of evidence isn't strong enough to overturn the mainstream theory so but but it does happen you know maybe there are multiple migrations into North America and we just don't have all the sites but when somebody comes up with a site like that's tens of thousands of years earlier than all the others that are accepted here and it's over here where are all the sites in between where is it it's like the gap the 5000-year gap with the Egyptian complex where are the sites if it's true we they didn't fly there so how do they get there well and there must be a trail you know somewhere that we could find unless they came by boat and then that's evidences well unless you're dealing with twenty four thousand years ago and there's not much evidence to find that Navy but if they came by boat then that clearly implies they had navigational skills they had the ability to build boats and and you know find their way across the ocean you can do the coast that's not quite as you don't need a you know a big ocean-going but you don't need an ocean-going but hypothesis tenure that that's proposed is that they came across by by boat just following the shore you the same area as the Bering Strait yeah you're just a hundred feet offshore right go in and most likely both right and one of the issues of course was the short-faced bear was so formidable according to Dan Flores that it would have been a huge impediment for people crossing on foot anyway and the short-faced bear went extinct right around the time we see more evidence of human beings entering in but why did it go extinct that's the big question well you have to add that to the list of predators that there would have been no reason for humans to have been hunting yeah well it's an enormous enormous animal so there's sort of two two factors that go on here there's positive evidence in favor of a hypothesis then there's negative evidence against the mainstream hypothesis and you really need both so it's not enough to just say I don't accept the evidence for here that okay that's fine scientists do that all the time what evidence what do you let's be let's be speaking specifics because you keep doing this you keep saying well they find things and it turns out no that's not true and then you're essentially like proving your point of being a skeptic without having any real cases well just keep saying those the case is it but but you know you're not saying you can't say all the cases if you don't want to cite anything specifically don't keep bringing up things that are refuted because you don't have anything that you're pointing to so you're just muddying the water okay you're essentially pissing in the pool no no the clovis thing for example gobekli tepe the pyramids all of these what's been disproved no okay I'm making a different slightly different point that's the problem that is that you you're not addressing the actual issues we're talking about you muddy the water by saying things have been tossed out the window so we have to be careful here and toss these things out the window as well not toss out just contemplate them published in nature for example so let's watch what happens to the hundred and thirty thousand year old hypothesis if it if it holds up and there's other sites that are dated that way and so on and so forth and that will be truly revolutionary and scientists would accept it okay well you see the problem is that when you have a very strong paradigm like Clovis first which really dominates American archaeology prehistoric archaeology for a very long period it's difficult it's difficult from a career point of view for archaeologists to come up and propose alternative sites those who did like Tom dinner Haida let like Jax and Mars paid a very heavy price for so doing so the incentive to go looking for older stuff than Clovis is extremely low in the archaeological community as a result of this ferocious reaction that went on for 30 or 40 or even 50 years you know I mean can also consider the vasa kilo excavations in in Mexico where there the suggestion of use some sort of human presence 230,000 years ago I mean that good archeology but it was utterly dismissed and the archaeologists involved were were ruined for getting involved in that it's hard to see how that's a profession that encourages people to think outside the box when careers get ruined and research funding gets withdrawn for an idea that doesn't fit the current mainstream life we don't like to think that that scientists do that they do that are you familiar with Michael Kramer's book forbidden archeology Michael yeah okay so now and he makes in my mind as compelling a case as you do and for his humans were here tens of millions of years ago and you know his book is young nine hundred pages long tens of millions yet tens of millions okay and he's a Hindu so his ideas you know this sort of long recycling and what evidence is it based well I'm not here to defend Michael Cremo or to have a discussion about Michael Cremo that's not why I'm sitting at this page yeah but my point is that Michael Cremo is not me that's right so but but there's lots of alternative archaeology who's where I began there's lots of alternative archaeology books and right but what evidence is there that just supports that none so why are you bringing up that when there's evidence that he's bringing up no Cramer's evidence is similar to his obviously negative evidence that I don't accept the data this there is this peculiar sort of footprint looking thing in the mud Remo refers specifically to the knowledge filter the most useful thing about that book is the publication of reports archaeological reports which are no longer available to the public which which do suggest an alternative view I would say it's a very useful book to read beyond that I have nothing to say about right so but that's not necessarily true you're saying his only evidence may be he's pointing to like some pretty significant evidence like the Sphinx thing is a geologist from Boston University proposed this because of water erosion because a water erosion that could have only been done by thousands of years of rainfall in his opinion as a as a qualified geologist and that's not a lack of evidence I understand but why do no no other archaeologists are killed there are no it's not true actually they do and I've had multiple conversations with Robert where he has cited the fact that he has gotten a considerable body of support from other geologists not from Egyptologists but from geologists who do recognize the effects of severe water erosion on limestone carbonate rocks and that's what we have there we have a severe water erosion it appears and is preserved on the quarry walls around the Sphinx the sinks itself as Graham said is difficult to ascertain because of all of the reconstruction that has gone on but the quarry walls which would have once had the very distinct stepped profile of a typical quarry no longer have that I mean they have now they have a textbook profile parabolic profile that would be consistent with sheet flooding which would be both dissolution because carbonate rocks dissolve in acidic waters and what's called core Asian which would be the effects of water loaded with sand sediment which would make it very rough so if you've got the sand sediment flowing over the edge of what would have been a quarry wall what you're going to end up with is a smoothing off of the rough corners and the final result would be a very rounded profile like you see there and you would also see where the fissures in the rock would be selectively widened and opened by the water penetrating those fissures I mean it has all the earmarks of a very textbook case of water erosion don't you think it's very disingenuous comparing that to someone who thinks that human beings have been here for tens of millions of years with no evidence to support it whatsoever but he doesn't say of course he doesn't say he has no evidence he has a 900-page book full of evidence it's the quality of the evidence what about the quality of that evidence it's okay okay if it was that good you know we're not geologists sitting here if it was that good why don't you all just look at it go he's right but they know that's the morning this they do they all do know some geologists who work with Egyptologists say that shock is right we have a geologist on the line why don't we ask him mark well we can have one guy's opinion we could also have other guys opinions that we can get this matter it has been in what domain since 1992 it hasn't gone away yeah sharks argument that we are looking at precipitation induced weathering on the Sphinx has not been debunked it has been opposed it has been disagreed with but that is different from saying it's debunked and shock stays solid and strong on that issue he is a credentialed geologist he is a professor of geology at the University of Boston he has a right to speak out about this and he stated his view I happened to find his view very interesting especially since it correlates with what I regard as the interesting astronomy of the site I think that site has origins that do go back into the Younger Dryas that's my opinion I've stated it many times and I've presented the evidence that I think under writes that opinion you and your colleagues are absolutely at liberty to disagree and you do you don't think it's disingenuous to compare that to someone who says something that defies our current understanding of human beings and the the actual evolution of humans okay you're talking about someone who's saying that human beings how many millions of years old tens tens of billions well we know for a fact right as far if you pay attention evolution right but that's what we weren't even humans a million years ago correct I mean there are creationists who think okay we're not talking about them we're talking about Graham I know but my point was that so here you have the mainstream scientists and so it's like there's Graham he seems so reasonable but there's 50 like him and each of them thinks that they're there right they're not there's your language he seems so reasonable you're right there you're accusing me of dissimulation the subject is that I'm not a man there's 50 like me this is more tantalizing arrogant idomeni tlie unpleasant and personal approach Ram I'm sorry I didn't mean it to sound like that I really don't okay okay I have a larger point that was you accept it yep that when you're faced with a bunch of different alternative theories that are coming in and it's not it's a take physics I mean every physicist like me just had Lawrence Krauss he gets these letters daily of people saying I think I figured out why Einstein was wrong and he can't address them all and and they're smart people they're thoughtful people they really believe it what do you do with that that's my point I feel that's not my problem and if there are alternatives the other alternative theories that's not my problem either it's the problem for the mainstream to sort it out and figure we just pay attention to in which all right well I'm suspicious of this the whole idea of the mainstream because even looking in the mainstream you find so many divergent points of view that I you know I think that's basically a fiction that there is this mainstream that has arrived at this consensus and that there are no alternative ulterior motives there and that there are no dogmas that are being perpetuated there you know I mean I look at the lot of the geological stuff and and realize that there are many different points of view when we get talked about the these floods at the end of the last ice age there are many divergent points of view there is what could be considered the mainstream yet even that has multiple interpretations and the same with this the Komet idea you know I mean I don't know what constitutes the mainstream there because there have been a group that has opposed it at every turn but at the same time the group that accepts the comet hypothesis has continued to grow in fact there's even a number of individuals involved that set out specifically to disprove it or discredit it who are now basically on board and it has grown from being a small handful of scientists that are now 63 scientists from 55 different institutions that are on board with the idea that something remarkable happened at the end of the last ice age it was probably exogenic meaning something from outside something from space there's no consensus as to exactly what that was which would be normal because it these discoveries are in their infancy at this point but there's been an attempt to discredit the idea simply because that as the evidence has come in over the last decade it has evolved in in new mysteries have been opened up as the evidence comes in and the claim is being made well there's no consistent interpretation of this evidence and therefore we've debunked it I mean an example is Pinter's Requiem pintura Dalton requiem for the Younger Dryas impact hypothesis I mean the publisher paper in PNAS saying Requiem suggesting that the impact hypothesis is already dead that was in 2011 every single one of Pintas points have been responded to those who are critical of the Younger Dryas impact hypothesis rarely cite the fact that the so called refutations have themselves been refuted that new information is constantly coming in I see a very one-sided game being played here with a group of academics who are determined to demonstrate that there could have been no possibility of anything like a comet impact twelve thousand eight hundred years ago and that these 63 or 65 scientists who are proposing that I just completely wrong and when they refute the refutations I very rarely see that referred to or commented upon at all again your your colleague diff'ent has you know dismissed the Younger Dryas impact hypothesis without actually going in detail into the debate that's gone on he has this graph in his paper showing all these different dates for the that's from one of the critical papers you know there's another side to this island and so he needs to be he needs to be listening to what the other side would say well that's the point where maybe we should have mark diff'ent come on and maybe we should have Malcolm lecompt come on as well because Malcolm LeCompte is actually one of those 63 Younger Dryas impact scientists well what is that would explain to people that are just listening to this what is this graph that you're showing well this is the carbon-14 date ranges from samples taken from the Younger Dryas boundary so this is the boundary here and at the point of this is that there's not a single consistent series of dates that would consistently show yep absolutely for sure at every site it comes in right there is that they bounced around a lot here so now maybe mark this is you know his area he could come on and Skype here they bounce around and what's what's the point of this for the layperson who's listening to this well so if you take the ones that above the grey line then those were those are showing that something like an impact happened much earlier or much later and the ones below it or that it's you know much earlier so where is the consistency of a single impact consistent across that middle vector I don't think there's any argument there was a single impact in fact there's there's arguments that there's no there's more than one date we're talking about a stretch of thousands of years and multiple and dry runs one random two hundred years Randall please please give me your your because you're the expert at this well these are dates for the Younger Dryas there's a big spread obviously but there's also a lot of possibilities for introducing inaccuracies into the dating the what's called the old would effect can sometimes make make it appear to be older than it is by a millennium or two millennium but what we certainly do see here is a clustering right around thirteen thousand years ago that looks pretty evident to me and everybody knows who does radiocarbon dating that the dating might have errors and inconsistency in it the one article I think that came out last year by James Kennedy and 25 others was the biasion chronological analysis consistent with synchronous age of twelve thousand eight hundred thirty five to twelve thousand seven hundred and thirty five calibrated years before present for younger dryas boundary on four continents that's a refutation of precisely what it is it's a refrigeration of this mark the fat does not refer to that reputation Jamie could you pull up the age of Leo I think I gave that to you and go to slide number 167 Wow 167 and that that refers to the Gotoh slide one hundred to sixty-seven Jesus you're not [ __ ] around 167 slides there we go there we go a cosmic impact event at twelve thousand eight hundred calibrated years before present formed the Younger Dryas boundary layer containing peak abundances in multiple high temperature impact related proxies including cereals milk glass and nano diamonds by yishun statistical analysis of 354 dates from 23 sedimentary sequences over four continents established a model Younger Dryas boundary age of twelve thousand eight hundred and thirty-five calibrated years before present supporting a synchrony ad of the Younger Dryas boundary layer at high probability 95% this range overlaps that of a platinum peak recorded in the Greenland ice sheet end of the onset of the Younger Dryas climate episode in six key records suggesting a causal connection between the impact event and the Younger Dryas due to its rarity and distinctive characteristics the Younger Dryas boundary layer is proposed as a widespread correlation datum and Randall if I can remember what you said correctly you believed that there was probably more than one significant impact over a period of several thousand years let me let me pop in on that very very quickly I don't mean to cut you off go ahead but the the let's be clear the suggestion is that twelve thousand eight hundred years ago there was a comet's break up into multiple parts I mean anybody who saw the shoemaker-levy 9 NASA films back in 1994 is aware that that comet broke up into more than 20 fragments all of which hit Jupiter sometimes creating explosions larger than the earth itself all right so I don't think it's controversial that comets break up into fragments and this is the suggestion of the Younger Dryas impact hypothesis that we're dealing with a giant comet that broke up into multiple fragments that orbits in the torrid meteor stream and that four of those fragments that's the the suggestion for largest fragments fell out of the torrid meteor stream coming in on a trajectory roughly northwest to southeast crossing the North American ice cap and there there are up to four impacts on the North American ice cap the the the the impact has then continued across the Atlantic Ocean there's a suggestion of impacts in Belgium and indeed as far east as our herrera in in in syria it's a it's a global event 50 million square kilometers of the earth surfaces is within the Younger Dryas boundary field it's a really huge thing so this is justin is that there were multiple impacts at the beginning now the next question is what happened eleven thousand six hundred years ago when the Younger Dryas ends and global temperatures shoot up incredibly rapidly and the science on that is much less advanced than the science on the beginning of the Younger Dryas Fred Hoyle back in the 1980s was puzzled by the sudden temperature increase at the end of the Younger Dryas and he suggested prescient Lee I would say that this may have been caused by a comet impact in an ocean so maybe other bits of the torrid meteor stream impacted the earth other filaments within the stream impacted the earth eleven thousand six hundred years ago or maybe something else caused it I mean Robert Schoch is is in favor of extraordinary solar activity being responsible for that warming we don't absolutely know but that that's broadly the suggestion we're at the beginning in the end it certainly impacts at the beginning possibly impacts or other things at the at the end Club in Napier and others Duncan steel and other astronomers have speculated that there could be impact eras epochs in which there's an enhanced possibility of the earth being impacted particularly if you have a large comet that enters into the solar system begins to undergo a hierarchy of disintegrations and basically litters the inner solar system with material and we do know that the earth crosses the torrid meteor stream twice each year once in late June and once in late October early November and we know that the Tunguska event of 1908 which is not speculative I mean that happened it occurred on June 30th which would have been the peak of the torrid meteor shower it also came from the direction of the Sun it's its position in space where it were it emanated it's radiant point in space from which it emanated at that time was totally consistent with the torrid meteor stream radiant so it's very possible that the that the Tunguska event of 1908 was a member of that family of meteorites and so you know that would be again we don't there's no nothing definitive there but it would be a prime candidate for investigation that perhaps and again I mentioned earlier this goes back to the work of Fred Whipple way back in the 1940s who began to research the [ __ ] meteor stream and came to believe that it was much much more active in in the past than it is now that it's an old defuse meteor stream that at one time and like Graham said you know it's it has multiple objects still within it comet Encke II is the best-known comment that's a fragment of the original giant of the original giant comet that they estimate might have been based upon the amount of material still remnant in the zodiacal light cloud that perhaps it was somewhere around sixty miles or a hundred kilometres in diameter another thing that I'm that I'm taken to task for is that that I report the work of Clube in napier and their suggestion that the torrid meteor stream is actually [ __ ] dangerous and that we should be paying attention to it that it has had been a hidden hand in human history in the past and that it can cause us trouble in the future now this is not gloom and doom we have the technology to deal with the large objects in the Touareg meteor stream if any filaments are on an earth an orbit that will result in impacts on the earth at the very least it's extremely unwise of us not to pay attention I'm accused of being as I would do Munger and constantly predicting the end of the world and this and that but actually I'm simply reporting astronomers who are very concerned about the torrid meteor stream and the possibility that we may face further impacts from it in the future that's not wool wool that is science you know absolutely and I would agree with that and that's that and that is a form of catastrophism that scientists accept is very real there's some do that well lots I mean there's you know then what if anything do you oppose about what they've just said nothing nothing nothing about the Younger Dryas period so I just a technical question you had your slide was 12,800 on there and so get gobekli tepe the you know the oldest c14 dates or what nine ninety so all right so that's a 1200 year gap well no no gobekli tepe we to be very clear about about the Younger Dryas one of the puzzling things about it is that you have Cataclysm at the beginning and this global temperature slump is sure the cataclysmic by any standards and you have Cataclysm at the end you have a massive spike a huge increase in global temperatures and you have melt water pulse 1b you have a lot of water going into the ocean at that time so both ends of the Younger Dryas are cataclysmic and it's at the recent end of the Younger Dryas eleven thousand six hundred years ago that we Seco Beckley Tepe mysteriously popping up and I know you're a staunch opponent of Atlantis and that you believe Plato made Atlantis up in order to make a political point and you may be right but the date that Plato puts on the submergence of Atlantis is eleven thousand six hundred years ago nine thousand years before the time of Sol on which happens to coincide with melt water laws 1b and the end of the Younger Dryas which I would have thought would cause you to rethink your position on Plato just a little well it's interesting hmm I'm open to the idea I tend to read myths in the same way your guests Jordan Peterson does that you know it's a story to deliver some sort of moral homily to us it's a commentary on our own culture or society it's a way a literary way of delivering a message to people that's how I tend to read instead of reading them like let's see if we can figure out what happened historically but if there's hard data there's hard data in Plato's whatever you think it is and that hard data is data is that the submergence of Atlantis happened 9,000 years before the time of soul on that is a date that is 9600 BC that is eleven thousand six hundred years ago this to me is a strong reason why we shouldn't just completely dismiss Plato's notion of a lost civilization of the idea I mean the idea that say the parting of the Red Sea happened because of some impact that's not I'm not proposing that please don't go there I'm not waste of time okay but but there are people that think that I don't okay or or that the plagues of the Bible can be a waste of time but deal with Plato alright so but my point is that some of them may have historical origins some of them may be completely made-up his mythic stories for some other reason you have to take them one at a time in my opinion the Plato one is a commentary on his own culture of Athens and being too bellicose being too warlike and that this is not good for where we're going that's my opinion and the the fact that he picks a date that coincides with the geologically significant date of flooding is not really gonna change your opinion I think well I think again that's pretty amazing coincidence is it I mean it we refine the election that Plato I mean we're Plato said civilization with with advanced agriculture advanced architecture advanced navigational abilities which was submerged by the sea swept from the face of the earth so that mankind had to begin again like children with no memory of what went before and lo and behold he puts a geologically significant date on that a date that we ourselves have only known is significant in the last 20 or 30 years mm-hmm so where is this place this Atlantis I mean so as you know there's all my problem is there's a long history of people speculating if we found a site that would be a big plus go do more marine archaeology well if we if we take it literally obviously then it's below the ocean but I you know I I don't necessarily take Plato's account literally but I do say well it's rather coincidental that he's his dating falls exactly on meltwater Poulsen one be when we know there was huge influx of water into the ocean and also if we look at the his geography it's interesting because he sites you know basically a landmass west of the pillars of Herakles which is Pillars of Hercules the Straits of Gibraltar and he places this in the essentially in the mid-atlantic I think it was grant or one of the comp the the commentators on on him that said it was something like three or four days sail west but if you look there there is a sunken landmass that sank at the end of the last ice age because of the rapidly rising sea level and this has been well established by marine geology looking at evidence that did the Azores plateau underwent and isostatic subsidence which would have been resulting from the rapidly rising sea level we know there's no doubt that the North American continent has rebounded isostatic Lee after the removal of this tremendous mass of ice that mantle North America up to anywhere from a thousand to possibly 1500 feet well if you if you do a comparable isostatic adjustment of the mid-atlantic ridge you'll find that the Azores complex are much much larger and it turns out that that might actually be a nice place to develop a at least a maritime culture something along the lines of the Phoenicians or the Minoans during the period of the Ice Age because during the period of the Ice Age the climate of the world was so much different than now you know the Great Basin area was filled with huge lakes vegetation forests savanna and grasslands like Graham said with this lowered sea level there were much larger areas of the coastline you were exposed and that's probably where most of people would reside it during the Ice Ages near the coastlines because that would have been the most benevolent place with the rising of the sea level all of that's lost and there's nothing really fringed about saying well people might have lived on islands in the Mid Atlantic especially when we know that the that those islands most likely had a benevolent climate during the Ice Age so III don't go into you know crystal technology and flying machines or whatever all of this imaginative stuff that has accreted to it but if we just keep it simple and say well is it possible that a culture along the lines of the Minoans or the Phoenicians could have existed could they have existed on an island culture in the mid-atlantic and there's nothing really it's you know extreme about that idea in my mind even the idea that a more advanced sophisticated technical of a technological culture coexisted with hunter-gatherers isn't too strange I mean we we essentially do so today we coexist we thought together as rewards in jungle who don't even know we you know we exist I mean so I I don't see I don't see why a priori that's just an impossible idea to look I miss remembering that you in your book you mentioned Indonesia as a site for Atlantis I mentioned I mentioned gunung padang not as a site for Atlantis that's Danny Hillman Natalie jaja who is a geologist he's the Indonesia's leading expert in megathrust earthquakes as a matter of fact he has written a book proposing that Indonesia was Atlantis and that Gunung Padang which he's been involved in investigating is a site from Atlantean times he has Danny has proposed that now what's interesting about Indonesia is that Indonesia sits upon the Sunda shelf and the Sunda shelf was one of the parts of the world that was most massively flooded at the end of the Ice Age now if you go back to the end of the Ice Age you're not looking at the Malaysian Peninsula you're not looking at the Indonesian islands out going out towards the Philippines you're looking at a giant continent sized landmass all of which went underwater at the end of the last ice age really rather rapidly so I think he has a point I think it's an interesting it's it's one of those areas in the world where there was very large-scale flooding huge amounts of land were swallowed up also Sahel the the connection of Australia to New Guinea during the Ice Age was also washed away there's there's a you know a whole range of issues regarding sea level rise in that very area which anybody with an interest in these subjects should be paying attention to so it's quite possible that like today many of the advanced civilizations of today are on the water whether it's New York or Los Angeles and that was probably the case back then and so the idea of Atlantis might not have been about one particular area but many advanced areas that were wiped out along with their knowledge yeah I mentioned Noah's Flood that the the two geologists with the black sea thick theory that there were you know it was rimmed with small villages and you know the massive flooding almost instantly wiped out and then that gets passed down as you know the oral tradition is these myths to me that seem totally reasonable totally reasonable yeah well when we get into more discussion about the actual impact hypothesis and the major flooding so that we can get our you know solved what is your geologists your geologists since you're by yourself and there's two of them what is your only fair right what is your geologist opposed to what Randal and Graham are proposing I think it's the on the impact hypothesis versus the multiple glacial dams that burst over periods of time like that have that slide okay well let's call him up and get him on skype it and we've never done this before so this might suck well hopefully it'll work see this this slide here he is showing these are each independent carbon 14 dates of these different instant floods in North America right from in each individual ice dams and what separates these dates they're separated by 20,000 to 12,000 so all before the impact well 12800 wasn't that one marks on the line what is this mark would it Mar can you hear us yes mark defend mark defend thank you very much for doing this we really appreciate you coming on here my pleasure so you've had a chance to listen to these guys talk what what is your thoughts just stepping into this cold well first of all I did not mean to upset mr. Hancock there seem to be quite disturbed no no you haven't missed it you haven't disturbed me and I'm not I'm not upset it's just simply that you're extremely selective in what you present in your in your draft admittedly draft article that you've chosen to put online you don't represent you don't represent me accurately we have plenty of time okay well first of all tonight would you allow me just to address sure would you like to address the article first I think that probably would be the most fair since we just brought that up okay what was the question Graham well the quicker I read out on-air various passages in your article where you misrepresent me no I did sorry no I didn't you didn't misrepresent me okay so thank you you said that I that I said that I was actually talking about someone in Indonesia when I said you didn't understand Newton's physics you say sorry I did you say I didn't say you were talking about someone in Indonesia I said you were talking about hey hey hey Suz Kamara in in Peru is who I was talking about and hey Suz Kamara does have very exotic views on gravitation which I state seriously are not my interest I do say he may be right but I don't say he's right I say this is not my interest and I got to say what my interest in this is his work you pick up now you're drowning me out here I was asked to explain whether or not I thought I was misleading and I don't think I was misleading you clearly stayed in there that maybe gravity was due to the way we've changed orbits around the Sun gravity is not due to that it's due to no I just ate that mass and the inverse of what what do you mean I don't state that hey sue sue Kamara states that as I say I disagree with it come on I say I want to be I want to be respectful I can't really hear you when I'm talking I apologize but I I feel like you've you are selectively selectively changing the meaning of what I'm saying well why don't you quote me as these words from my text when you say that I by the gravity thing of hey Suz Kamara why don't you quote me when I say what I got to say not quoted in the attack is the following quote however this isn't the part of his theory I'm interested in where I feel he is solidly persuasive is in his observations of the anomalous character of the monuments of the Andes I am not killing anything on his Sue's Kamara's gravitational ideas I am saying very clearly what it is in his approach that I am interested in I'm not going to dismiss all of his approach because he has an approach on gravity that you don't like that's not even of interest to me and I say so in the book you don't report that therefore I suggest you misrepresent me well mr. Hancock what I brought up him floor was simply to state that you didn't understand and I say it right there that you don't understand Newton's physics but I'm not even talking about you I'm not talking I insist if you don't understand not if I'm if I wished if I wished to make an argument about gravity I wouldn't go saying that that isn't the part of hey soos Kamara's theory that I'm interested in I'm interested in the other aspect of his work his observations through my years of fieldwork yeah my point was simply to point out that she didn't understand grab hold of these guys talking about we did this represent we did yeah the way the sentence is structured it's clearly out of context we're chained we're gonna change that yeah I was taken out of context and that's what I'm objecting I'm not sure why he included in the book of the first place but he's not arguing about the gravity at all so we will fix that maybe we could get straight to the the flooding thing that that as long as Graham is fine with that I mean Graham I know there was something else yeah the other the other thing that I find to be misrepresenting is that the statement yet Hancock makes the following stunning claim quote our ancestors are being initiated into the secrets of metals and how to make swords and knives what mark de fab does not tell his readers is that I make that claim I don't make that claim I am actually reporting what is said in the Book of Enoch that's not me who say well first the Book of Enoch Graham will fix it okay otherwise let's get let's get back to the main need of this for God's sake okay just give me the list of things that you know and I'll fill well we'll fix it you know that's not the point in it well mark you're obviously very critical of Graham's work and maybe erroneously so but let's let's get to what you think about what you've heard so far all right mr. Rogan I I don't want to come across as a as a pompous scientist what I want to do is I want to protect people from these grandiose assumptions Graham in his first mr. Hancock in his first book please call me grab their currents please call me Graham okay Graham in his first book in fingerprints suggested that that there was a continent where this civilization lived and through some Maxo nations this continent went south and and ended up destroying that civilization well as a geologist that that's just that's just nonsense and now he comes back he wants us to believe that he was all wrong and then all of a sudden it's okay now to believe in comet strikes trying to kill this this famous civilizations not supposed to exist so Moss is duping people I don't know if he means to do it master he seems to be doing mark all my work is in print and online I mean I see that I gather that you see your role as a protector for the public obviously you feel that the public are not intelligent enough to make discerning decisions of their own in this respect however to address that the public doesn't understand the science okay so to the degree so they need the superior knowledge of mark defend in order to understand okay let me come to your point which is you're saying that I proposed one mechanism for Cataclysm in fingerprints of the gods and that I'm proposing another mechanism for Cataclysm today what I proposed in fingerprints of the gods was that there had been a gigantic Cataclysm in the ballpark of 12,500 years ago I looked at a number of possibilities of which the most striking to me at the time was earth crust displacement and earth crust displacement is reported as the work of Charles Hapgood not my work but I do report it in fingerprints of the gods as an excellent theory which explains the information since I wrote fingerprints of the gods I've learnt a lot I'd learnt a lot and I wouldn't want to defend that theory strongly today I don't know if you have bought the latest edition of my book the the paperback edition of magician's of the Gods but it contains a chapter saying whatever happened to earth crust displacement I address the change of view in this and I think I have a right to change my view and I think it's it's healthy that I mean why would I stick permanently to a view that I hold in 1995 if new evidence persuades me that it's wrong I'm sure that's a good thing not a bad thing and I'm fundamental proposition is we had a massive global Cataclysm in the ballpark of 12,500 years ago so naturally it's of great interest to me when a large group of scientists more than 60 of them over a period of more than ten years now present evidence of a massive comet impact event twelve thousand eight hundred years ago exactly there was no surgery you are applying that there are a lot of people out there to believe in this there are there are some people that believe in and I agree but for the most part I think of taking an honest view the common hypothesis has gotten debunked well that's complete rubbish my that's completely rubbish I would also point out that in fingerprints you had people believing that the end of the world was coming to 2012 now how am I supposed to take you seriously when you say things like that and then change your run and we could all be dead by now I have absolutely changed my mind on the Mayan calendar I regard the Mayan calendar is an interesting technological artefact with a better estimate of the length of the solar year than the estimate that we have with today the Mayan calendar is based primarily on the position of the Sun amongst the constellations at the winter solstice and we are in an 80 year window when the Sun sits astride the Dark Rift of the Milky Way between the constellations of Sagittarius and Scorpio on the winter solstice that window is 80 years wide so the story of the Mayan calendar by the way isn't actually quite over yet but I'm not either so not means yes I know exactly what precession means okay well all of this stuff that you claim is on a precession a precession is the is the earth spinning like a top don't teach it as matter some guys with running through comet clouds and yet you're saying that somehow we're on some sort of cycle where the Comets are gonna come back and strike the earth right now sometime during the next forty years that's what you said in magicians no that's what that's what that's what Victor Clube and Bill Napier and Emilio tsveti Cato say Michael Shermer for for saying the same things about other people I want to know what you think mom you tell me what you think I am a reporter and I make it very clear talking to Marc so Marc we got a we can't talk over each other like this I'm a reporter and it is my job to report the work of other people and I report the work of Victor Clube bill Napier and Emilio's petit cadeau all of whom draw attention to the torrid media stream and who regarded as the greatest collision hazard facing the earth at this time and who specifically indicate that we may run into a filament of the torrid meteor stream in the next thirty years that is going to be very bad for our civilization when when did I say it had anything to do with precession indeed as a clock as a timer as a way of going back through the ages but I'm not saying precession is causing this encounter with the torrid meteor stream and go find the paragraph where I say that no no no what you're saying is that we're on a cycle that 12,000 years ago this civilization was destroyed and now you're saying oh that civilization was so smart that they knew we were going to go through another shower and we're all doomed in the next 40 years yeah I didn't say doomed and in magicians like you did in fingerprints but we must conclude that that's your opinion because I don't know anybody else that you've referenced on that issue well after session has nothing to do with that it's not even on that cycle I never has a cycle of about about 21,000 years 25 cycles when precession 25,920 years actually it's not for precession one degree every 72 years give or take a small margin that is the precession you're really really teaching grandmother suck eggs here so anyway I guess this has just been going on all day you can't criticize Michael for bringing up other people that are saying strange things and comparing to you say oh no you can't say that because it's it's not about me it's not true here you're doing the same thing you're reporting about other people and saying nonsense yeah my remark I'm reporting the work of Victor Clube bill Napier and Amelia spetic Otto I also indicate that I strongly support that work that's as far as I go mark is very if I can stop you here you so you think that this comet wiping out all the Ice Age megafauna theory has been debunked is that what you're saying no sir I have not saying that but I think that if you read the literature carefully the majority of scientists right now and I know that this is still going you know what I like about the comic people is that they're doing it in the scientifically right way they're getting people to review the material they're getting people to go through that gauntlet to where they get criticized they make sure that they do things right and they get it out there Firestone did this in 2007 he was crucified he's come back his group has come back with a lot of good stuff so I want to wait and see this plant play out I said that in my paper that we're gonna have to wait to get a conclusion here so I'm not saying that they're wrong but right now if I read the literature as a scientist I have to say that the comic guys aren't getting hit pretty hard what do you take what do you make of the latest platinum paper in Nature scientific reports the platinum anomaly across North America and it's coincident in time with the Greenland ice cores and the Platinum anomaly there what do you say to that and maybe we can bring him on the problem with that is is that what does platinum have to do with the Condon you know Platinum's are high and asteroids but they're not high in comet's comets are icy bodies I saw the paper I read it I think it's interesting but I can't for the life of me figure out how he's correlating it he has in in the different areas of the Clovis he has platinum concentrations that are that that are seemingly not matching up there outside the the Younger Dryas they're inside the Younger Dryas I'd like to like you to show those let's bring let's let's bring much harder to understand what he's trying to say let's bring it doesn't refute the common hypothesis let's bring Malcolm on since he's one of the co-authors of the platinum paper this is gonna get super complicated but let's try at a time we could only do one caller at a time apparently well I think Malcolm you know should have his voice that's okay to do is he can be helped a little bit if I may about gobekli tepe because I bred Schmidt I know that Schmidt never ever found anything to suggest that the anything in the early part of Gobekli Tepe that that were not hunter-gatherers they all were hunter-gatherers you know he found 20 I think I I may be wrong on this but I think he found 22,000 stone tools there when he dug that place up I'm not yes we thought any domesticated animals he never found any domesticated grain he found tons of bones of animals so we know that about a hundred to two hundred people were probably working on gobekli tepe at one time and they were fed by wild animals and grain so there's no reason to go out on a limb here and say that some magical civilization came in and by the way that's another thing that drives me crazy you're saying that these guys were magicians you're saying that they had secret knowledge what possible secret knowledge they give to the people that go back heavy how can you possibly not saying that the word magicians of the Gods comes from the up kallu in ancient Sumer and they were considered to have superior powers than they were considered to be magicians of a sort and I should I not report that because it's there in the Sun their superpowers I'm not saying that they had superpowers this the Sumerians who said that I simply report that you can regard that as a cop-out if you like but I am a [ __ ] magician because that's the direct implication of the app Kowloon they were the magicians no I'm saying that they were the magicians of the gods as they were called in an ancient culture that's all I just want your audience to know that [ __ ] who worked there for 20 years that hat didn't go there for two days and look around take some notes and leave and write a book on it he worked there for 20 years and he found date with dates and everything he found that there were hunter-gatherers there building those mega lists I don't guess that you went to if you went to Easter Island can I say D you found the moai and and you said oh my gosh there must have been some secret civilization that made these moai because stupid hunter-gatherers couldn't possibly make these will we know that there were no special people on Easter Island it had to be made by hunter-gatherers why would you poopoo the sorry are you saying you'd have to call us are you so high you should yeah are you seriously saying that the inhabitants of Easter Island were hunter-gatherers absolutely in fact we saw on that little island ocean they have no agricultural you say the Pacific Ocean 1,000 years ago what do you think what a big civilization mark please let him respond go ahead well first of all have you met Claire did you meet clash Ned do you know him personally you know okay well I did meet him I do know him personally I did record I did record my interviews with him with his agreement and and what he states clear I don't disagree with you that the people around gobekli tepe were hunter-gatherers when gobekli tepe was started what precisely intrigued Klaus Smith was the possibility his phrase not mine that Gobekli Tepe was a center of innovation a place where new ideas were deliberately seeded and spread out in the population I have clash made on record saying that I quote him saying that in my book and that to me is a very interesting proposition because it suggests that we have a site here that is being used to mobilize a population and to transfer to them the knowledge of Agriculture which suddenly appears around gobekli tepe at the time that Gobekli Tepe is functioning what do you mean by what I mean by what I mean by suddenly is Klaus Schmidt BETT stated very clearly that these are the people the very same people who made gobekli tepe in Cloud Schmidt's view are the people who quote unquote invented agriculture if you don't mind me interrupting here for a second what what about Easter Island was Easter Island established by hunter-gatherers or not you were saying not you said you say it was established by hunt together as I said not I say Easter Island was an agricultural society what's it what's that hunt and gather on a tiny island of you been to Easter Island I have six times and you know you can walk across it in three hours what's that a hunt and gather on that oh no you misunderstanding my point is that these are not sophisticated people okay sorry you second you sleepy on both go back a tepee I think they could you got Schmidt right and in fact it's a UNESCO site we all recognized how important it is but what what I think Michael and I can understand is how this ties into some some magnificent civilization there's nothing there that indicates that they were influenced by some other civilization except that they started out as hunter-gatherers and then they evolved into a agricultural society and that's what makes it a great Sun can I answer you you're seriously saying that there's nothing there I mean the largest megalithic site on earth 7,000 years older than Stonehenge is there there's no background to it no not some practice or training right the megalithic site itself is the problem for me okay I honestly we've got megaliths in quite a few sites and by the way you're right there's a megalith just down the road from gobekli tepe and they're probably so that several other I can see them on maps yeah we need to get to this wonderful amount of work to do there you bet so I think grambler a pretty good agreement okay so is that I don't think there's any any need to call upon this great civilization that you say exists well to me the simplest explanation is a transfer of knowledge a transfer of Technology I've been writing about the possibility of a lost civilization for more than quarter of a century that's what I do I hope that it's a useful contribution to the debate I mean archeologists can choose not to listen to anything I say to dismiss me as a complete lunatic as they often do to accuse me as you do in writing of duping the public of conning the public and so on and so forth you know you did use the word conning actually it's in the very last paragraph of your article because I got it right here in front of me we will fix that for my students well it's there I am left with what I am left with is that Hancock I mean I'm gonna put my reading glasses on so I can read this probably what I am left with this is quoting you mark is that Hancock has a real Mac for conning a hellacious number of people into buying his books I mean that's a homonym insult it's online in your article do you stand by it or not I apologize to you for the use of that language is that what you want her because I do sorry you used it in the first place I think you're misleading your students why would you say that you're just putting that on line for your students as if that's not a big deal you're putting it on the Internet and to say you're just putting it online for your students and you've been proven incorrect and how many different times in this article now well about seven correct I haven't been proven incorrect well you have you misquote me so you don't give the contact the neighbor guy this and even Michael Antigua and even Michael has said that the skeptic article will not will not reflect these out of context statements that you're making here right so the core is is the impact hypothesis likely to be true or not and as an independent phenomenon is it connected to gobekli tepe and the Younger Dryas i mean that's kind of what we're getting at so then we can maybe you can explain that graph that shows all the the Glacial dam bursts and the dating of those as as thousands of years before the 12,800 year in put the map up first we need to map you guys what did that what does that mean well which map is that which maps on your which map marked I'm sorry it's the Glacial map of Western Washington or Washington State yeah okay Jamie put it up I should to protect Michael here I I submitted this Michael made immense amount of changes on that paper I put it up because I wanted my students to see it I had no idea that people would go online and look at that and unfortunately you've sent tens of thousands of people probably to it by letting them know it's on here and I'm sorry for that is it okay to just put that up online for your students how come you don't have any problem with that but you do have a problem with it as it stands being released to the general public well you know if I stand by everything I said except for the personal comment at the end surviving process yeah let's okay let's put up this math get back to the mail okay the brown areas are no I have to emphasize that that the scablands is very famous people have been working on geologists have been working on this for more than a hundred years I bet and very intricate detailed mapping and we now know what areas have been flooded that's in the brown the green areas are the old Latian lakes one of them you can see is the Columbia Lake and the other one on the far right over in Montana that's Lake Missoula now I guess my my point here is is that you guys want to make the flooding out here to be immense and I think Brett's you know original idea was that there was just one flooding but then Brett's came to understand after looking at the data and all of the geology geologic work that it wasn't just one flood that it's many floods and that was the point of all of those dates that I've shown you that there were there have been at least seventeen specific floods dated there probably as many as 40 to 50 floods out there and they're all probably related to a glacial dams breaking now where in the world would you ever say that this small area relative to a entire continent why would you say that this is evidence for a comma strike comet strike not even the comet guys are saying that this flooding out here is related to a condom because there are a large number of area a very small number of very actual area that is flooded if you take a look now at my dates or not my dates but the days do you have that Michael we're gonna bring that up but let's let Randall Carlson address usually because he's where this I mean he's got a point that if you just look at if you confine your your examination to this area but the point is is you've got evidence of mega flooding all around the ice sheet margin from the Atlantic to the Pacific got the work of P hue and Lord in the Midwestern states South Dakota North Dakota eastern Montana you've got massive spillways out there that discharged it off the ice sheet you have glacial River Warren that was undoubtedly formed by most likely glacial Lake Agassiz and you've got the st. Croix River where I took Graham a couple of years ago that had mega floods down it there were mega floods down the Mississippi River there was glacial lake Wisconsin that discharged down the Wisconsin River left the Wisconsin Dells there are the Finger Lakes in New York that probably were created by massive floods emanating all of the scour scoured exactly right they were scoured and they were probably scoured by sub glacial floods that were coming under high pressure because you know you have the drumlin fields that are just to the south of them and you've probably seen the work of John Sean flare beany and Bruce Rainey and nose out of Canada well why would that be why would how do you propose the drumlins then were formed Oh easily these lasers came forward and topped top to the terminal moraine and spread the Marines out to the ended Romans it but how I mean you've got you got features that look like they're totally flew viele produced you have they look like inverted bow tells you look at the internal stratification how does glaciers create internal stratification I've looked at you had looked at at numerous drumlins from in Canada I've looked at drumlins in New York State I've looked at drumlins in probably a dozen different places and where you can see exposures you see stratification you don't see if if glaciers are grinding over deformable substrate how is it that they produce anything other than a chaotic jumble of glacial till you can actually see layer I've seen it myself and we can pull up pictures of it here in a minute and I'd like you to explain to me to do that because I'm not disagreeing with you okay a Drummond by definition is made up of till I think we're getting kind of technical for this audience but you know an esker is something that's stratified not a drumlin so you're miss you miss identifying them as drumlins no I am NOT miss identifying drumlins I know very clearly the difference between an S car and a drumlin I've looked at many askers I've hiked on them I've flown over airplanes the Finger Lakes are dashed they are gouged yes are they gouged by glaciers or are they also gouged by sub glacial mega floods that's the question in that I think that's a fair question to ask and if we look at some of the studies we find out that the the depositional material in them is massive it's not stratified it's massive as if it was dumped in there over a very short period of time let me go back but hold on a second would you please your point about that yeah I'm sorry respond to that what he just said what am i responding to oh look we're gonna have to disagree I mean what am I supposed to argue I don't want getting an argument with him here he thinks that they're done by water I think that the traditionally the way most geologists see the grit the Finger Lakes is their couched out they're parallel to one another if he thinks it's water okay what can we do we can disagree I guess well let me go back up to the main glacier the red tide glacier Wally Broecker suggested at 90 in the 90s that water potentially was changed from flowing down the Mississippi Valley into the Atlantic or the artic no one has been able to find any evidence of flooding towards the Atlantic or the Arctic so when you say there are all kinds of evidence of flooding up there I meant Wally Broecker backed off of his of his theory because we couldn't find any floating what he backed off of was the the idea that the draining of glacial Lake Agassiz triggered the Younger Dryas because the direct the dating of the draining of glacial Lake Agassiz was post Younger Dryas and so that's what he backed off of he didn't necessarily backhoes look we know that network there were some when trains have been carefully they've been carefully math you can watch the Elan tie glacier move back Lorain after moraine and there are no holes in that moraine that that suggests flooding there's no change in the lake level of Lake Agassiz there's no evidence there Randall for flooding you've got it wrong if you look at the mapping that the careful mapping that the geologists have done you've just said that there was no change in the level of Lake Agassiz how is that possible I mean as the ice receded the glacial Lake Agassiz expanded and at some point it finally breached right there at by big stone lake in Minnesota and and basically carved out the Minnesota River Valley which geological studies have confirmed they called glia River Warren and have confirmed that essentially it was carrying its pay peak discharge was roughly four thousand times greater than the modern Minnesota River that flows there and we're into the Mississippi the Mississippi then conveyed that water into the Gulf of Mexico and deposited huge amounts of Delta material that New Orleans is built on now you know you're trying to make a flood were a flood isn't there's a difference between a glacier melting which causes a lot of water and a common striking in which case is it creates copious amounts of water I think you guys referred to it the last time it's a tsunami there's no evidence of a tsunami in North America have you been by the way here's another question why do you guys why are you guys talking about North America when you're Atlantis is supposed to be in Egypt or you guys have run around you found some evidence of flooding in North America and somehow this relates to a destruction of Atlantis and some lost civilization I'm talking about now I'm not talking about that we know there was a fan of scandia and Ice Sheet we know there was a Cordilleran Ice Sheet we know there was a Laurentide Ice Sheet we know they all melted we know that there was somewhere around six million cubic miles of ice wrapped up in those in those ice sheets at the end of the glacial maximum they're all gone now they had to melt that was an enormous amount of water and I don't know if you have been out to the scablands I've been going back to the scablands and the area of glacial make Lake Missoula since 1970 I've been across that thing 60,000 miles back and forth I have over 10,000 photographs of the material in the field and I can tell you those floods were enormous they were beyond her cherry picking look at the map you've shown some pictures you know we can measure those current ripple marks that you show we can measure how much water went over all you have to do is measure ripples you can go into Camas Prairie and you've got a current ripple field there that is about seven miles long they know very well okay and the high-water mark in there is at 4200 feet above sea level the floor of Camas Prairie is just 1400 feet lower than that so we know that there were 1400 feet of water that passed through Camas Prairie and down into the Flathead River no no we know well because you're disregarding the high-water mark the bottom up from the bottom of the canyon to the top of the canyon is not what it was when the water first started flowing in that area you can't take the bottom of the canyon and say oh there must have been 4000 feet of water here I'm not talking about a canyon I'm talking about Camas Prairie Basin which is not a canyon it's a basis well most of the material in there was washed in so I mean we don't know how much it would have eroded until somebody does some core samples to get down to something that can be dated to earlier you know than the late glacial maximum but the floor of Camas Prairie is is thick layers of very coarse gravel boulders and this is what composes the the current ripples that you see there I mean I don't see how you can look at those current ripples that are sometimes 40 and 50 feet in amplitude with two and 300 feet cord lengths and say that that wasn't a catastrophic flow maybe it wasn't for crack it was a catastrophic flood but it wasn't like a tsunami well then how would you characterize and we can you know we can do we can play this game are you saying every geologists on the planet practically says that there were about 40 different floods until you came along no no no no time you're obviously familiar you're not familiar with the work then a Victor Baker or Russell bunker or a number of others that have challenged the 40 floods hypothesis and are you gonna tell me that those current ripples in Camas Prairie are created they're the product of 40 separate floods oh absolutely in fact when you showed me your pictures I could see the flow changes in net oh don't give me the that you're incredulous stuff I'm sorry I just doesn't mean you're right you do the encryption us all the time mark well so 30 floods created the Camas Prairie that's what you're saying that's what that's the product of 40 separate floods those currents how many floods have been in there I know that there are they're going there counting them and I and I last read something the effect of 40 somewhere right yeah that's based on the work of Richard wait goes back to the to the early eighties and I think he's got no go to he go to his graph can we go to his graph whose graph which graph is this mark it's the one right below the man here this one it's the dating ok floods here we go we're at that right now I think hopefully hopefully we're disagreeing in his comrade - yeah I'm just trying to give you some data here look at those those are Missoula floods late Lake Missoula he's got him dated you're seeing the dates he's got standard deviations one and two standard deviations on on on on the median there so we've got these these things pinned by multiple carbon dates the the little bell curves they're showing how many carbon dates he's got and you can see that these are documented very very well yes so I don't understand why you're you're you're so opposed to multiple floods in fact I heard in the last time you guys were on show I heard you say that you thought there were multiple floods now you try NAR no not I'm still I still think there were multiple floods I think we have to look at two distinct regimes of floods though and and and as far as the the radiocarbon dating the thing we have to be really careful of is that floods will in train older sediment and in that older sediment there could be radiocarbon dated material that doesn't really date that the time of the flood but was excavated by the flood entrained into flood waters and then redeposited so you know that that's a major problem with radiocarbon dating any time you look at flood sediments and I do believe there were multiple floods deaths you know I think it's a misinterpretation to think that I only think that there was one flood but there you know the problem is here and I do I think we're colleagues and I my approach to this is just like you know in the AMA when two guys get out there and try to beat the crap out of each other and then at the end of it they give each other a hug that's kind of where I'm coming from so you know there's nothing personal well you know I I I really value this because I'm looking for you know I'm looking for holes in this idea very much so and and I have done some serious thinking about this over many years and I have interviewed most of the geologists that have worked on it I've been in half a dozen field trips guided by the the main geologists that have worked on this and had a chance to dialogue with them and and you know I I'm convinced that you know there's still some there's a lot to be learned about this and and I think we need to be looking at like you said the big picture and you know we could get back to a discussion of the Finger Lakes and how they formed I think that's important I think we could get back to a discussion about drumlins and how they formed you know there is Studies on the valley heads Maureen that are at the south end of the Finger Lakes that I can't think of who did it right now I could pull it up but basically said there it's water deposited but but there's a lot of unresolved issues about what happened during this transition planetary transition out of the last ice age and I think it's important that we have these discussions that we have these dialogues and then we try to get to the bottom of what actually happened without you know imposing too many preconceptions upon our models because I think we're looking at something very unprecedented here right now I couldn't have said that better it was very well articulated let me go back to the big picture if I could just for a minute because I want us to address something that Graham said earlier and that is that Graham seems to have this idea that that comets break up all the time but but people that understand I think comets and meteorites understand that the comet Xuan Levy or whatever it was that broke up shoemaker maybe nine it broke up because of the gravitation of Jupiter we would not expect these comets to break up and rain into the atmosphere is one of the problems that the comet people have had the Firestone once suggested a four kilometer wide comet striking them and now they've broken it up into multiple comets the problem is you can't get it separated if a comet breaks up it's very hard to separate it so that it hits in multiple places and so so this is a big picture kind of problem that the common people are having with the scientists so you may be able to get it to hit the North American ice sheet but I'm telling you that the studies are showing that you're not going to be able to do this without leaving some marks and so far nobody's been able to find a credit do you know that that they're suggesting and a four kilometer comet if it could break up it would generate 1 million crater meteor craters you know how big that was that was 49,000 years ago we don't see that in the in the climate record 49,000 years ago we should see that we don't see it it's about a barely a little thing welcome to Compton sweet Stan they have a huge comet strike Malcolm the comte has been standing by for best part of three hours and since he's a member of the research group wouldn't it be a good time to bring it off yeah we can bring him on as long as mark is satisfied that he said his piece but unfortunately mark we can't have two people on the phone at the same time okay I appreciate you coming on - and I'm glad you guys especially you and Randall seem to have ironed out a lot of your ideas well I think there's a lot to be learned here obviously and there's a lot that already has been learned and this is an unbelievably fascinating subject and I think oftentimes when these debates get heated a lot gets lost and who's wrong or who's right but I think what we can all agree on is that what we're dealing with is an unbelievable point in history in the history of this planet and trying to figure out what caused it and why is some really fascinating stuff so mark I really appreciate your time and really appreciate you imparting your knowledge on us mark if at all possible I would love to kind of keep some of this dialogue going because I really would evaluate I tried to write you Randall I would have seen that I definitely would have responded so well connect you guys after this is over and thank you once again mark really really appreciate it if I can just say I do hope you'll revisit your article and just have a look at the context in which you present me thank you Mark okay now we are going to call caller number two this is a fascinating podcast and your friend who's waiting is Malcolm McComb Markham he's one of the comet research group scientists this is a large and diverse body of scientists who come at the material with different expertise and different areas of knowledge it happens that Malcolm is a co-author of the recent I regarded highly significant paper finding a platinum anomaly across North America and I would hope you might begin with it with addressing why that might indicate a comet impact right who's Malcolm on you should be Malcolm can you hear us like when I can hear your excellent how are you Malcolm thank you very much for joining us happy beer so give us your thoughts on what Graham just said if you would as to why why it makes sense that it was a comment that hit and why there would be these large deposits of these what was it exactly recent paper but but Malcolm is also an expert in magnetic microsphere eul's and I think he can arrest that issue as well the whole range of proxies of impact proxy in our mouths and Malcolm please just give us your thoughts on this entire phenomenon if you were I will be here happy to have you is he breaking up go ahead go ahead Malcolm I think there's an issue seems to be the king polite I know what's going on I've got a feedback I've got to turn off this okay yeah you got a mute that other video oh okay you're listening to us at the same time as talking to us yeah yet you're you're getting us on in like a 40 second delay or something exactly yeah okay we call now actually I was very interested to hear marks his initial statement kind of put me off but his uh his subsequent statements I thought were or we're pretty accurate and there is there are many problems with the the the hypothesis that there was an impact and that's the way I consider I don't really think in terms of a common impact I think in terms of an extraterrestrial impact because I don't think we've proven a common in fact I don't think we've proven we I don't think we know what kind of an impact it was there's too many questions that have to be answered so I can't sign up to say that I'm defending the common impact hypothesis because I don't frankly know what it was we have a lot of evidence that appears to be extraterrestrial in nature we have magnetic micro sterols I can give you the most frequent criticism we get is that the the evidence has not been replicated and that's where I thought mark was going when he is initial statement was that the combat impact hypothesis has been a debunked and I think what he meant was if I can speak for him was that the fact that it was a comet has been debunked I don't think that's necessarily true yet it just doesn't indicate that that it was a comments we have indications that it was more of an asteroid hit than anything else and and I can conceive of a rubble pile that somehow became disassociated although there be MEK there have to be a mechanism or a model for that and I don't think we have a model for that asteroids come in many flavors and rubble piles are certainly one loose lose aggregates of material that could become separated possibly but I just don't you know I just don't know at this stage I guess the biggest criticism that we faced in terms of the impact hypothesis is that the evidence has not been replicable and we now have I guess four three or four evidence lines that have been replicated by numerous independent groups due to the nano diamonds which may be the most controversial of the bunch of the evidence lines that's been that's been replicated by four different groups independent five different studies the magnetic microspheres which were initially treated very hostile because they didn't understand what we were talking about and some of that was a self-inflicted wound on the party initial study which didn't show what we really were finding and that's been corrected and if this the same objection or criticism is being made magnetic microspheres are typically very well they're melted and then they're quenched they said if they're subjected to high temperatures and then those temperatures are rapidly reduced which is sort of accepted to be characteristics of an impact so we've got that evidence of an impact and that's been replicated by ten different independent groups and including many of the same site that that were originally disputed so then the disputation has been largely based upon the failure to do the most basic part of the protocol which is to to do the scanning electron microscopic analysis of the sphere holes okay that that is the Diamonds the other is the discovery of platinum iridium or osmium which are the platinum group elements which are characteristic of an asteroid impact and we found some evidence of iridium not not a lot but there have been certain sites that are rich in iridium at and once again this is at the younger driest boundary not at Bob not below it's there after that boundary so that date seems to be pretty solid in iridium is indicative of an impact of extraterrestrial origin correct that's correct the platinum is simply just another more more plentiful platinum group element obviously that's why they're called a platinum groups osmium is one that is usually associated with iridium there are now 11 studies by independent groups that have confirmed the occurrence of platinum osmium iridium so it looks to me like the evidence is piling up the most recent one of course is the platinum study by Moore that just came out Oh a few months ago now Randall Nelson just I'm sorry to interrupt you but Randall Carlson just had us pull up some images that we're looking at Randall please explain what this is well this is from Malcolm's 2012 independent evaluation of conflicting microsphere results from different investigations this is his supplementary in information figure four so it's just so that the people watching this can can actually see what you're talking about when you're discussing the rapid quenching effect on the surface of the microspheres so so we've got up on the screen here supplementary information figure four where you've got the microspheres from topper Blackwater draw and pappa Cove so just just so people can see what that surface texture looks like oh yeah you see these they look like leaf like structures across some of them are harder to see but they're there you see the original image it's large enough and clear enough to actually see these what we call dendritic structures or or almost like a carpet weave mm-hmm those are essentially truncated crystallization it's it's a crystallization process that's quenched I'm not a geologist a geologist trying to explain it to me and that's what I'm trying to do here but you know yeah the fact that these are enhanced these these things are quite enhanced at the average rious and really depleted above and below now there are spirals throughout the columns any column of soil when you go down vertically on a deeper you find sphero's but those spheres are typically what we call autogenic which means that created by terrestrial processes you need to do a scanning electron microscope and x-ray dispersive spectroscopy to differentiate those from the terrestrial processes that are producing these things yeah your figure five has a frame boydle Sphero which is probably what you're talking about if you could go to slide 113 Jamie and and you'll be able to see yeah there it is you can see very distinct difference so we've got your figure five up in the screen now Malcolm this is a typical frame Boyd and there when you look at an optical microscope they look just like thee or very much like the the what we call impacts fuels or magnetic microsphere holes and they occur much more frequently I mean I've got sites that have tens of thousands of these things in every couple of centimeters of sediment so you've got to separate the this that might be the impact cereals or the magnetic microspheres from these things but what you appear to be saying Malcolm is that there is an abundance of impact proxy evidence which in your opinion adds up to a cosmic impact of some sort not necessarily a comet you're suggesting an asteroid it's a mysterious event in that sense but what it adds up to is an impact in your view um is that a fair yeah a fair these improper we call proxies the impacts urals the platinum group elements the the melt glass which I haven't discussed yet and the nano diamonds are enhanced and the enhancement has been replicated on numerous occasions for each of these these proxies so anyone who says that that the work of you and your team has been completely debunked is is clearly not completely familiar with the literature then that's that would seem to be the case that our were disingenuous in that regard well I would say that that because typically what we see is that the opposition literature does not cite the studies that have come out yeah we try and cite both the critical studies and hours and give reasons why our studies supplant theirs yes I have but I wish they would share what could you go that hasn't been the case slide 82 it would be nice if we could have had you on with mark so you guys could exchange information but unfortunately our capabilities that we can only take one phone call at a time we will definitely try to update that for the new studio although we never anticipated this was going to happen in the first place awesome oh there we go up on the screen Malcolm we've got from from Ted Bunch at al 2012 very high temperature impact melt products as evidence for cosmic airburst sand impacts twelve thousand nine hundred years ago so we have figure from supplementary information six delight photomicrographs of magnetic and glassy spheres from Melrose Pennsylvania and it shows the the wide variety of shapes which includes spirals ovals teardrops and dumbbells and I think so you can see pretty distinctly what you're talking about here with with the glassy spirals and then like particularly I don't not sure if you were co-author of this paper or not I was not you are not okay are you familiar with that paper do you know the image I'm good okay yeah it shows some very interesting or teardrop shapes dumbbell shapes and where you can actually see that like dumbbell H up there consists of two dissimilar accretionary spherules one clear silicon rich and the other opaque iron rich that have been fused together and that's that's pretty convincing evidence of the of the energy that's involved in these phenomena the jacks we have these fused spirals like this and then Jamie if you go down to the next image which is a scanning electron microscope images comparing younger drivers boundaries fields on the top row with known impacts fields on the bottom row this is a very interesting comparison because and I you've probably seen this one malcolm a there's there's three across the top three across the bottom and a is actually a from knudson's or nudesons farm in canada it's a young a Cretaceous tertiary boundary spiral and just below it is a younger driest Sphero from lake Cuchillo in mexico and one can see the morphological similarity of the two quite clearly then C and D compares C is a mural from the Tunguska air burst and then D is for younger driest boundary from Linden Germany which dates to twelve thousand eight hundred years before present and there you can see very clearly the the rapid quench melt texture on the surface between the two comparison comparing Tunguska air burst with a younger driest boundary object and then finally II and F we have an iron calcium silicon cell from meteor crater compared with an iron calcium silica Younger Dryas boundary Sphero from abu hariya syria and again in each of these cases you can see the similarities between the different types of objects so you have these three objects which are come from that Younger Dryas boundary layer all which have morphological similarity to known impact proxies and this is very difficult to dismiss this as being mere coincidence yeah I would agree and those those are very especially the ACB d pictures are very similar to the material that I'm taking out of the Younger Dryas boundary at the sites that I've been looking at uh-huh Malcolm what evidence if any d are you aware of about what is that nuclear glass material called trying try to Trinitite that's how you say it well what I understand there's quite a bit of that that also appears that in the same time period in the core samples there are some instances of it but I wouldn't say quite a bit some of these I mean they're very site-specific and one of the one of the things I've been trying to do is work my way closer and closer to Canada and see if there's any truth to them this whole idea that the primary impact site was Canada so I've been trying to look at sites closer and closer and I've seen sites in New Jersey this would be Eastern Canada I've seen sites in New Jersey New York and Pennsylvania that produce what appears to be some form of Trinitite or melt glass or what Ted bunch would call scoria like objects and it seems to to bear out that that at least that far we're getting richer material out of the sediment out of the Younger Dryas boundary sediment is the Trinitite this material only produced in this manner or it's also produced through nuclear explosion tests right but other than that is this the only way that it's produced on earth well an impact would do it or a fulgurite could do it what is the right is is what's produced by a lightning strike could produce a spherules it could produce all the high temperature products but you see in an impact but in a very limited way you wouldn't expect to see it in a layer unless there was some sort of global lightning storm the what I was gonna say about the melt glass is that in in the material we're looking at you see evidence of melted zarkon's melted chromite all of which are very high temperature features high indicating a very high temperature that was experienced by that their object are you seeing the image we have up here yes oh great okay good yeah they're a is from meteor crater and B is from the Trinity nuclear test so and then with the 22 kiloton yield and then C is from one of the Soviet era nuclear tests and D is again a scoria like object from a Bavaria so yeah so and then if we go to let's see yeah I love that it says Stalin ight yeah Korea like objects the the milk glass was Korea like objects has only been found and about half a dozen sites to this point so we're still you know and I think it's a matter of how close you are to an impact point and if they're very far apart that would lend credence I think to the this idea of multiple impacts if they seem to be get more you know more plentiful as you get further and further north and maybe there's more more legitimacy to to a primary impact site right now we just don't know now we're still we're still working that out alright we got another nice slide from from the bunch article here the youth the careful slide yes calcium oxide rich scoria like object created by the melting of carbonate and silica rich precursor rocks the yellow areas the calcium oxide the white areas less Shatila right and dark areas are iron oxide so that's a really nice let you tell you right yeah I've been struggling with getting that down and then Jaime if you go to the next one we will see there's a scoria like object from meteor crater Arizona and you could toggle back and forth between the two so the people can kind of see the similarity between them and I see a lot that's when I in the sites that produced milk glass that's what I'm seeing yeah those two those two types of particulate and how much this material are you finding in these sites well you don't plant I have to say you don't find a lot of this material it takes it's a struggle to get it but what you don't find is anything above or below it that particular layer unless you know that there's been a very dynamic environment which case it can be spread out in the in the soil column and what's the implication of nothing above it and below it well that that you've got a specific date for a specific date for it and the belayer that we we typically try and just look at our investigation two layers that have been dated to the other driest boundary or contain their driest boundary layer right well like I say if you have a very dynamic environment it can really screw things up it can be very difficult to interpret so this is flooding repetitive flooding difficult science to do sagan this is difficult science to do yeah and and uh I should add there that proving an impact is not easy it takes a while and and it just as proving an impact crater is not easy as I'm sure mark would agree that you find a crater there's no guarantee that's either an impact impact event or a volcanic event until you do the research and spend the time to investigate it but if you could summarize for us what's your opinion now on the balance of the evidence always bearing in mind that you may change that opinion as more evidence comes in yeah I would say we're facing an unprecedented type of event here that appears to have been something approaching global I mean we've got evidence now in South America we've got evidence and a lot of this stuff is unpublished like there's a lot of things that that I could bring up there aren't published so that it's kind of useless to refer to them because there's no way of checking what I'm saying but we're seeing stuff that goes very far into South America and we're seeing things in Syria we haven't looked elsewhere we've seen how about in the Pacific Ocean we've seen it in the Europe so I mean where does it end and it's all we haven't found an end to it and it's all at the Younger Dryas boundary that's correct yeah what have you found in the Pacific Ocean well sharma has found there's a paper i can cite from his his uh may even be just a presentation in court he says we infer that the Central Pacific was a site of deposition of osmium resulting from dusk from dust cloud following a meteorite impact at 12 12,000 kill animals plus or minus 4,000 so right net right in that ballpark Sharma says that he found osmium and I believe he's come up with microspheres from that that same core but so the Central Pacific is an idea that there gives you an idea of how extensive this this thing was now Malcolm this is obviously some controversial material it's it's it's fairly new in terms of the public consciousness have you had anybody debate you on this or if you had anybody oppose you yeah because it goes with the territory I wish the the opposition's in some respects in some cases I wish the opposition was a bit higher caliber than than what I've seen I think it's it's been a sad state that the most virulent opposition has not I have I haven't regarded as particularly high-quality Mountain Malcolm Michael Shermer here just do you have an opinion on the the Association of the impact with the megafauna extinction and also then Grahams hypothesis about the you know extinction of this lost civilization I the I'm even comment on the lost civilization aspects of this I have a hard enough time dealing with a meteorite impact as far as the megafauna goes I I think that I guess like I would say all of the above I think that all these these factors came into play you've got humans who are you know for that period technologically advanced with with the Clovis point in the the atlatl and the spear the replaceable spear tip that must have been devastating to the fauna but the the idea of attacking a a promise in Ian to me is almost unthinkable I mean those things are today if you don't have a high-powered rifle I just don't see how you you realistically go up against a bull elephant I mean it just strikes me is far too dangerous take on but there are aspects of that question that I think are gonna be very very interestingly debated in the next the next couple of years or so we have a book coming out that addresses that directly one of the sites I've been researching that the whole extinction of the megafauna may have been as much related to religion as something else there may have been a religion built around the extinction of the megafauna oh how so that's well that you'd want the evidence for that and that that evidence will be coming out in a book and that's gonna be published in about a month or two oh well I could speak to the whole idea of hunting bull elephants though unfortunately people have been hunting them with bows and arrows forever it's not an atlatl atlatl is less effective yet less range but people hunt with not just modern compound bows which are very powerful which would allow you to shoot from a hundred yards away but with long bows they've been hunting elephants with bows and arrows for a long time you know the especially the thing with woolly mammoths was that they would go after the females apparently according to Dan Flores who wrote american serengeti and that the females would keep the young in their body their gestation period was very long like i believe he said it was two years is that correct i think he said it was two years and so it made them extremely vulnerable when they were pregnant obviously if you kill off the females that are pregnant you're killing off a substantial part of the breeding population and the population suffers tremendously so that was one but it also could have been that end you know i mean that humans i'm sure had an impact on virtually anything that we could eat when we were starving but whether or not we wiped them out the Blitzkrieg hypothesis there's a lot of holes in that theory according to a lot of people that have studied it well I think you have it you know if you have an environmental impact or a degradation of the environment that might follow a a significant extra terrestrial impact so you're you're reducing the population or stressing the population of megafauna that way and then you've got a population of hunters in addition to that especially if there for some reason or other focused on hunting Provost in Ian's and when the number gets limited they don't care whether it's a female or a male and they go after whatever they can get and I think the population of megaphone is going to suffer so I think it's a combination of factors not necessarily just one yeah I think that's very reasonable mm-hmm Malcolm is there anything else you would like to add before we let you go uh no I I guess one thing is the interest I found it interesting in the discussion of the the scablands and and that was really it was looking at the scablands from from flying over them when I was a young naval officer that got me interested in science and why I pursued science it was looking at that the catastrophes that were etched in the landscape there the catastrophic floods that really cost me to pursue a career in science it's really a remarkable landscape it's just a personal observation well mark we're very very thankful for your time and we really really appreciate your input here and it means a lot and and thank you for everything you've done thank you for everything that you continue to do to highlight this it is such a fascinating subject and it's so amazing and it's just without someone like you presenting hard data in science it would definitely be lost so thank you thank you so much thank you Thank You Malcolm yeah Thank You Malcolm all right Malcolm we're gonna let you go okay take it easy buddy sat down time for your nap Malcolm it's a lot of energy so these podcasts are long I mean four hours guy was sitting there on standby probably you know chomping at the bit um Jamie before we go I want to see some pictures of the scablands because that is pretty amazing stuff and Randall one more thing before we go one thing that you pointed out to me during one of the episodes that was so stunning was these woolly mammoths that had been literally knocked over by an impact with broken legs and that died on the spot do you have those images I do that was actually a mastodon Mastodon I'm sorry yeah yeah I want to see those so let's go to the scablands first so we can show the audience on YouTube which is by the way only about 10% of the people that watch this so if you're listening to this go check out the scablands on on google and you could see this describe it to us randall well here where this is textbook scab land right here let's see what this is probably Rock Lake or Spragg Lake into Cheney Palouse scablands yeah you see the potholes there that's a sign of turbulence extreme turbulence within the water Col king is then is what the process is called where you get it's so turbulent and it actually produces vortexes high-intensity vortex motion in the water it'll pick up sediment and then it can drill its way right into the into the bedrock going down there that's Palouse Falls which was it it's a that's an under fit waterfall because what you have to realize is that at the peak of the flooding this entire scene was submerged below water and the cataract here is an extinct feature and the flow over here was thousands of times greater than the present Palouse River that you see right there we've got a lot of great pictures up on the Geo cosmic Rex web site and some awesome video clips I'm serious you know cosmic Rex rexxx okay and now you were saying wreak like a car wreck well that's it's a play on words okay oh yeah we are talking about that okay but yeah we got some great drone footage on there did we show that last time I was believe we did the light of definitely showed a bit of end in the Camas Prairie ripples did we show potholes cataract yeah there yeah this this whole scab landing is literally fascinated me since 1970 and and like Malcolm and I think that summer of 1970 traveling out some of these landscapes was yeah here we go is the drone footage Wow yeah and and let's see be ready to pause if we need to here is this the beginning because at the beginning we have a Google Earth image you can get a sense of what we're looking at here go back to the beginning right at the very beginning let's see if it starts off with their drones oh it starts off with the drone okay there should be another one that actually that's okay this is pretty cool yeah this is this is these are 400 foot cliffs this was a recessional cataract very similar to dry falls the water was pouring coming from behind our view here where is this specifically if anybody wanted to go watch this or look at this area oh the actual area this is an Eastern Washington this is this is an eastern rim of Quinte base and it's called it's right along just if you can see up there where those cliffs are in the middle distance right below there is the Columbia River and this is just north of Wenatchee Wisconsin grew up Wisconsin Washington so basically what we had here was a you know plucking quarrying as the water poured over this Ridge this is the Babcock Ridge and behind us as the Quincy base and which served as a temporary holding pond and let's see is the is the drone comes around I'm looking for the word the team Oh keep going to zoom in a little bit more there Jamie I think we did shows you can see you guys down there in the ground right yeah we're then there somewhere lost in the vastness of the yeah now I remember we did show this yeah what about those images the the mastodons let's look at those and then let's get out of here okay for that you have to go to the world of the pleistocene which I just should have given you that sounds like a music park yeah the world of the places could be over there some dudes with animal skins on well maybe if they succeed in you know cloning some of those frozen animals up there maybe right what yeah I don't know how plausible it is but that seems like a terrible idea the lost world well that's one of the big concerns about climate change right that we're going to really some diseases that we don't have an immune system for yeah go to slide 78 this is a good example of by the way who is more thoroughly documented than Randall Carlson Jesus Christ man go to slide 6220 to 50 plus years of woman walk in the channel scablands yeah this this is a bone deposit and what happens is that in the particularly warm years when the the permafrost around the rivers collapses it exposes these huge deposits of Bones which have been buried in the permafrost this is you know when I look at stuff like this this is I is why I say there had to be another mechanisms of extinction besides human hunting because this pile yeah because it possible that this I mean it's not necessarily at the bottom of a cliff right because you know that they pushed a lot of them off cliffs and no no this this is stuff that when the the river floods it erodes the banks and then this stuff falls out of the river banks right so it's it's been locked into the permafrost for however many thousands of years and it seems like there's interestingly two peaks of dates that one right around 13,000 and the other one around 36,000 that that the that they that the fossilized remains are dating to which could point to a potentially that there was some sort of an impact back then as well or something else no I I don't know I don't have an opinion on there by having all these together I mean has it been theorized that perhaps this was a there's not a cliff near this right yeah just off the to the right there's you see there is a cliff we're at the bottom of a cliff right here that is the actually it's a river bank so so just you know that that was a hunting method these two stormed them off the side of cliffs and they never they literally couldn't even eat all of them like head smashed yeah yeah they would run so many I'm off cliffs yeah but but here's the thing here's the thing when you look at it the the more these mortality events of modern animals even like looking at elephants that perish during some of the severe droughts in the 80s in Africa taphonomic studies show that it doesn't take three four or five years before the the remains have completely disappeared mmm in order to preserve a fossil that has to be rapidly removed from any kind of forces oxidation or scavenger or anything that would consume it see this stuff has been again it's been frozen in the permafrost for for however many years ten or twelve or fifteen thousand years so it was likely covered in an event covered in an event yes now what there was one that I really wanted you to get to that was a mastodon that had been literally knocked over and had broken legs yeah that would be we could look very quickly at slide 92 this is one of the more interesting anomalous events this was the the flash-frozen woolly mammoth go to the go to slide 93 it's a much clearer yeah this was a mammoth six ton mammoth that was again one of these River collapses the banks collapsed during a warm spring and exposed this remains of a wooly mammoth with soft tissue preserved contents of the food and its stomach undigested actually a mouthful of food the hips of the mammoth were were both broken as if he was thrown back on his haunches very violently he had an erect penis which suggests to that he was suffocated was he he was a freak or he was a freak Michael laughs it out that the Wolves ate the flesh off the skull that's why it's it's buried like that you'll see the front left forelimb there you see the bottom there left right at the centre of the screen that's his back leg oh wow did you see right there the interesting thing about this is the you know the the rapidity of climate change that's implied by being able to freeze the six ton mammoth because the contents of his stomach according to the studies had not really been putrified yet which implies that the entire carcass had been frozen through and through probably in less than ten hours well I could see the Iceman that's you know that's what happened to him that's exactly what happened to him yes yeah interesting point and that would be a subject that we should talk about what fell in between a crevasse in a glacier correct yeah it probably got rapidly buried under the under the snow and the ice and that's how he ended every night preserved yeah overnight exactly the next slide actually shows a reconstruction of the of the in in this in a museum in Russia showing what the the mammoth the circumstances under which he was found if you go to there's a sidebar on duty to show you how science changes rather slowly sometimes it was a decade before they found out he was murdered because they found arrow point in his scapula here they cut his bone Annie had defensive wounds on his hands and arms so he'd gotten in a fight and he had other people's blood on his hand so he gave as good as he got and lost a fight so he was murdered Wow and that that took with all that careful observation in laboratories of ten years before that came out yeah so sometimes this stuff has to just take a while so if I can try to find some common ground with before we sign off with Graham you know your you know your book you have this really great sentence that I quote this it would mean at least that some yet unknown and identified people somewhere in the world had already mastered all the arts and attributes of a high civilization more than 12,000 years ago and sent out emissaries around the world okay I think that's is entirely possible cognitively for sure and you know I would do it for me but you know the boats that they sent the emissaries out on the wood carbon-14 dated and some specific examples of high arts and attributes of high civilization so if it's not metal and writing then you know whatever it is I would change my mind absolutely that's good to hear Michael and I I think as the as the research continues in this area for the last few years having been very much an outsider I have felt that the evidence is moving in a direction that is helpful to the argument that I'm I hope it'll continue to be that way I hope the evidence that you're looking for will will come out I'm trying to like I say my role is a reporter and I'm trying to be a reporter for the alternative sides of things but to do so to do so in an effective and and and hopefully third there's a good argument in the history of science to be made for the role of outsiders I mean complete Outsiders to come in and shake things up I mean Freeman Dyson is an example you know totally self-taught autodidact I called you an autodidact absolutely and they can make and if nothing else they push people to really figure out what it is they believe and why because otherwise no one's going to challenge them Harlen Bretz is a good example of that you know a high school teacher right how about Randall Carlson well Liz you still want to look at this real quick mastodons I got it right here he could go for days what I love about Randall he never gets tired of this stuff if you could bottle your enthusiasm it'd be an awesome pill well maybe we can talk about yeah all right we're gonna we're gonna look at this this Mastodon here 125 125 yeah so this is a Mastodon that was dug up in a pit years ago excavation showed that the bones were lying on and in a layer of limey clay or marl about 1 foot in thickness when they're meant to do when it gets up there and it goes on to see the skeleton proved to be badly disturbed in the bones crushed and broken as an example of the amount of disturbance one of the ribs lay beneath one of the tusks while another was thrust through an aperture in the pelvis a shoulder blade rested to the right of the skull and one of the large neck vertebrae was found about ten feet from the skull near a portion of the pelvis in spite of the wide dislocation of the parts the now this is where it really is interesting the bones of one of the feet remained intact and in place very possibly in the spot where the animal last stepped so in other words the foot there was a foot still embedded in the soft material where he was apparently stepping at the time whatever happened to him and this is all the same time period as the other Macedon we don't have dating on this but it likely was at the very end probably writing at Younger Dryas window because of the amount of sediment over it go to the next slide Jaime and we'll see 1:26 we can get a better so this thing theoretically at least was blown back yeah go to there we go there you can see one of the femurs that's been busted squarely across they go on to say that even the largest of the bones such as the thigh bones were broken squarely across in places indicating that some considerable force had been exerted upon them any conclusion as to an agency powerful enough to cause such destruction must be highly speculative so basically what you're seeing here is a Mastodon that got smashed into into the ground Wow the the forces there were strong powerful shear forces that would have literally separated his leg from the foot that's still in immersed into the into the ground so I mean there are many examples of this and the last slide we're gonna show if you go back this I promise once went digging with Jack Horner that paleontologist the dinosaur digger and he he showed these debris flow pile ups of dinosaur bones that had been splintered and broken Wow and these are huge just from the force of the water and then piling up at the a of a wall and so if we can do it to a dinosaur Wow right yeah 85 85 is an interesting slide because what it shows is the London ivory docks which over a period of about two centuries this was this was mammoth ivory that's being dug out of the Siberian permafrost that's just a drawing oh that's just a drawing yeah with that like that's what it looked like 19th century scene showing the ivory floor of the London Docks covered by thousands of mammoth tusks and this went on year after year after year after year for roughly two centuries there is so much of that mammoth ivory by the way that they use it to make knife handles so they actually have a knife handle you that I that was made out of mammoth ivory yeah and still to this day not only is it legal but it's common to use mammoth ivory for different kinds of things there's so much of it well they're not all dangered species because they're it's kind of a loophole in this case so what we have is tucks that are being again dug out of the permafrost right so how did they get there that becomes the question right does it have anything to do with human predation or was it a natural catastrophe that somehow ended up putting all these mammoths down and burying them into permafrost that's the question I want to raise well I think we raised a lot of questions I think we we got some pretty good answers I think we had some great dialogue and I really appreciate your time all three of you guys and thank you to Malcolm and thank you to mark and thank you to young Jaime oh thanks for hosting my pleasure thank you can I do a quick shout out shout it out I want to thank Brad Young Cameron Wiltshire my brother Rowan my wife Julie for helping all make this possible I also want to have people go to the Geo cosmic Rex website and the sacred geometry international website for a lot more of this kind of stuff then I'm going to thank my beloved partner and wife Santha whose shared every adventure with me for the last quarter of a century we've climbed the Great Pyramid together we've been at the bottom of the ocean together and I wouldn't be doing any of this stuff if it weren't for that wonderful woman behind me Michael Shermer who you want to thank oh thank my wife Jennifer my little boy Vinny and my agent my light no no no but sceptic calm and my partner Pat who you know keeps the show running when I'm running around doing things like this all right I'm Joe Rogan Joe I speak all over the world and whether it's South Africa or whether it's Japan or whether it's Britain or whether it's the United States or whether it's Croatia people come up to me and they say Joe Rogan son yeah well thank you I appreciate that interesting guess well you're one of them dude that all you guys are thank you so much all right we'll see you guys soon thank you fine so long [Applause] [Music] [Music]
Schermer gets trounced imo. He also has a scientist pop in later who works for Skeptic magazine that argues with Hancock that the precession of the equinoxes is 21k years and not 25,920 years.
Whut!?
This didn't change did it? It IS 25,920 is it not?
It was a drubbing.
This was a big waste of time. Neither of the skeptics seemed prepared at all. They barely had any specific rebuttals, just generalities and hand waiving.
That entire 10 minute opening rant by the Skeptic magazine guy was babble. It had nothing to do with anything, he was just pointing out that other people have been wrong so Hancock may be as well. NO SHIT.
Also, why can't he apply the same skepticism to the accepted science? He seems to accept it just because it's accepted, which is a tautology.
This is what modern skepticism looks like. It has no bite and it hides behind a smug face.
And I see people in the comments saying Hancock got too defensive... I agree but can you blame him? He's been in the crosshairs of modern science for 20 years now and the discoveries we've made since Fingerprints have done nothing but strengthen his hypothesis. Meanwhile hit pieces have been done all the way up to the BBC. The man defensive because he's constantly being attacked.
Any time you see someone with a psychology degree talking definitively about a completely unrelated area you know it's a good time to get the popcorn. Shermer, Peterson, etc.
As terrible as it was seeing Shermer flounder and just deny any evidence during the entire debate it was relieving as hell to watch him concede that he and his buddy had written and published a misleading/misrepresentational hit piece of Hancock. Just seeing the defeat when he realized he couldn't deny they fucked up made it all worth watching for me.
Michael "I don't study that" Shermer. Way to prepare.
So clear to me that Hancock and Carlson are on to something that the skeptics won't admit. Ok so we were wrong about hunter gatherers ability ALSO build megaliths. Ok, so how were they able to do that with no specialization? Shermer never comes close to explaining that
Also I'm so proud of Rogan for holding his own so we'll with these experts in their fields! What a champ.
The Shermer guy seemed very poorly prepared and apparently thinks "Hunter Gatherers" are the end story for everything, that dating discrepancies shouldn't be considered because we are positive that hunter gatherers are the whole story of human history and tech advancement is homogenous. Joe was quite good on calling him out on just going with the established dogma without giving it any thought....
And the metal tools, when the fuck was the use of metal tools EVER brought up in terms of creating megalithic sites? And what about Gobekli Tepe being obviously more advanced when it pre-dates stonehenge. If anything this can be seen as evidence for different paces of technological development in the ancient world, and that's just a start. Ancient unknown civilization or not, it seems ridiculous that Shermer refuses to acceptthat human development was most likely not homogenous and that certain groups may have been more (in some cases much more) advanced than others.
I'm not saying it's Atlanteans or some shit, but at least acknowledging that humans developed at different rates of advancement seems like the first thing to be acknowledged. Along with the displacement that would come from a changing climate; I don't see how they can continue to fight new evidence like that
That Shermer guy takes the cake for just defending ideology with more opposing ideology. It's ridiculous that he said he's there to get the story straight when he's clearly just defending established dogma without acknowledging any additional information he's being presented with.
I practically stopped listening once you had Graham going over the Skeptics hit piece and refuting it bit by bit while Shermer is just outright denying that he had no idea about the contents of the article and decided to play dumb. This should have been a logical debate rather than one that seeks to shore up established dogma without acknowledging contrary evidence. Funny because that's what Randall and Graham continue to warn against. Give me a break.....
I think Shermer was just doing his job, to provide alternative, more mainstream objections to Hancock's informed speculation. However, he was pretty condescending in tone. Hancock makes no claims to be a scientist or archaeologist. He's a journalistic author and I think his speculation is really entertaining, compelling and not without merit. His ideas should certainly be challenged, but the ad hominem displayed by Shermer is unnecessary, given Hancock's intentions.
HUNTER GATHERERS WERE BOTH HUNTERS AND GATHERERS WHO HUNTED AND GATHERED THEIR LATE PLASTICINE YOUNGER DRYAS GOBEKLI TEPE TRANSMISSION OF TECHNOLOGY MEGALITHIC SITE BETWEEN 11800 AND 12600 YEARS AGO