Joe Rogan Experience #1510 - George Knapp & Jeremy Corbell

first of all george pleasure to meet you joe great to talk to you good great to see you in person great to see you too and jeremy good to see you again good to see you this is uh we're doing this often this is becoming a thing uh george uh i think that you're probably like one of the most important figures when it comes to journalism and ufos and when you uh broke the bazaar story was that is that 89 when was that 1989 89 1989 um i remember reading about it i remember hearing about it i remember watching clips on television and watching countless bob lazar interviews it all came out of you i mean did you think at that time what was your thoughts about ufos before you had met bob lazar and how much did it change while you got to know him and hear his story it changed quite a bit i had not really given it much thought at all you know probably the same level of curiosity as most people you go about your life you pay your bills you go to work you you love your family uh and it's always out there somewhere hey i wonder what the deal is on that but not had not really dwelled on it until it was a day in 1987 into the studio comes a guy named john lear and i had heard sort of a little bit about him his family was famous his dad developed the learjet the eight-track tape john had run for the state senate and he had a certain amount of credibility with our news organization kla because he had helped us break a really big story and the story was the stealth fighter the f-117 he had told my boss ned day managing editor about this amazing plane that was invisible to radar flying up in tonopah in area 51. we had an interest in area 51 not ufo related but ned broke that story it went national so john lear comes into the station one day with a stack of what turned out to be ufo documents he plops them on ned's desk and says ned this is going to be the next big story the biggest story in history it's a ufo cover-up aliens are here technology's been recovered ned takes a look at it and says i'm not doing this story if it was true i'd already know know about it this is crazy well i'm eavesdropping as i tend to do i'm a curious person so as he's going out i said lear let me take a look at this material and i looked at i thought well this is kind of interesting at the time i was producing and hosting this little public affairs show 30-minute interview show it would air sunday morning at six o'clock nobody watches it it would be interviewing a city councilman a county commissioner what the heck i'll put lear on there and i let him go and he told me this big scenario about secret treaties with aliens and recovered technology and a giant cover-up some of the information sounded outrageous some of it seemed like it would be worth checking out suddenly the phone starts ringing off the hook i'm getting calls about people that who was that guy what was the deal on that ufo stuff is it real i had him on again six months later the response was bigger had him on a third time with a guy named bill cooper i regret that and he told him an even more elaborate conspiracy he's the behold the pale horse guy yes yeah i read that book and halfway through i was like what in the fuck is this yeah he tied in the jfk assassination and everything bases on the moon aliens are there right now he had he had this scenario where he had seen these documents when he was in the navy and he's going to tell the world about it then he's going to go away well every time he he told the story the documents got bigger and bigger and anybody who criticized bill cooper became part of the secret government including me so we do this third show with lear and he hints that he knows a guy who might be going to work out of dairy 51 and knows something about alien technology that guy turns out to be bob lazar but lear didn't give me the name at that time a couple months later i am anchoring the five o'clock news on klas and uh we have a nightly or evening uh interview segment five minute segment live interview our guest doesn't show up and we're scrambling to find somebody to to fill that hole and i thought about lear so i called him up not knowing what had been going on in lazar's life or lear's life and i said hey is your uh that ufo guy you told me about is he around would he do an interview just turned out that bob had been through the ringer a lot of stuff going on in his life he felt threatened and he said yes we had to black out his face we do this interview and he spills the basics of the story i worked out there at a place called s4 i saw nine flying saucers and an underground base this is technology that came from somewhere else i'm in fear for my life holy cow the phones start ringing off the hook my news director comes rushing in the station manager is that for real what's the deal on that and we realized we had touched the pulse of the public in a way that i didn't really understand we arranged to go meet bob lazar my news director bob stollow and i that following weekend and put him through a paces where we would ask him questions about his background and how he got the job we spent a couple hours with him and we walked out of that meeting thinking holy shit what if this is true um you know this is really risky for us as journalists it's risky for our personal reputations if it blows up in our faces and we do this story and it would really damage the reputation of our news organization which is klas is a jewel it's always been a leader in in las vegas one of the best tv news operations in the country we're putting a lot on the line well look we decide let's take our time let's look into this guy's story and then in order to understand lazar we'd have to look at the bigger picture of ufos so i started a cram course on ufology and i read everything and i spent eight months like cramming for a final exam that never happened i read everything i interviewed people that same year mufon had its its international symposium in las vegas and there all the world's ufo people came right to me i got to interview him traveled around went to los alamos uh lazar took us into the lab we took cameras in there he walked us around waving to people we didn't even have to stop for security took us into the the lab like it was a rabbit going through its own burrow he knew of the pla his way around we were allowed to take a camera in there we put those stories together put them on the air in november and man it just went through the roof um every night of these nine this nine part series people got uh the audience got bigger phones ringing off the hook people calling giving us information suddenly it's on something called paranet which was uh sort of a precursor to the internet and it was huge and and um it changed my life for sure i had no idea that there were so many people out there interested in the topic and i was hooked and i really got hooked on lazar not only because his story personally you know i was interested in him we became friends i saw what happened to him after that live interview and in the seven and a half months before we went and i revealed his identity people were really messing with him i mean there were you cannot convey what it was like how weird it was then breaking into his house leaving the windows open messing with things in his in his home breaking into his car leaving the doors and windows down just messing with his head and you think that was the government that was doing that yeah i do i think so and then so i had put out a call to people hey i want other people to come forward this is before his identity was revealed we should explain yes i am actively seeking information from the public if you ever worked at area 51 or s4 you know anything about this you're at nellis air force base reach out to me so i started getting calls and six people right in a row who had talked to me on the phone and offered to give me information were visited right after the call one of them was a guy who did tax returns for people at nellis air force base and he had got to know these guys really well and got information about crashes there was a guy who was a golf pro at nellis who had gone on out road road trips with officers and told him about this weird stuff out at area 51 that seemed to be from somewhere else uh he gets visited and told to shut up there was a lady who worked in the court system a cop told me about her and i talked to her on the phone and she had worked at the court system but before she had worked for a company called holmes and narbor which is a defense contractor and she said she sat in as a stenographer in these meetings and heard these conversations between the government contractors and air force officials about crashed saucers and they would after the meeting they took take the tape out of the typewriter and and destroy it and take all the notes and she agreed to tell me the story it was just a tiny piece of the story the next day she's visited by these two guys in suit they tell her look you are still subject to your security clearance i hope you know that and then they said we know you travel to la to see your daughter and we know she comes here it's a big desert out there it'd be terrible if something happened to either one of you this lady is scared shitless she didn't make that stuff up so six people who had offered to give me information on the phone one right after another get visited and it made me mad it also made me mad that dealing with you know trying to fill in pieces of bob lazar's life now i know there's some gaping holes i know it better than anybody i've had to deal with it for 31 years but i always thought if if he worked at los alamos in classified projects in a scientific or technical capacity then it would make sense that he could get hired into a program like s4 as somebody who thinks outside the box despite personal shortcomings or whatever they might bring somebody like him in to help him crack a problem that they hadn't been able to resolve themselves so i focused on los alamos i knew he had been there i talked to people who remembered him from being there but the lab kept telling me no no record of him he's never here and then i showed him well look i've got the los alamos newspaper it's a small town paper there it is on the front page a front page story bob lazar physicist maison facility los alamos lab it's a story about his jet car no still have no records of him and and then i found his name in the phone book from the arrow when he was there he's in the lab phone book he had been hired by a company called kirk meyer which is a company that's a a headhunter that fills positions at los alamos and places like that so great i'll reach out to kirk meyer they said yeah we hired him yeah we've got records can i get it can i get his employment records that would show where he went to school whatever information you guys had yes a couple weeks go by nothing um a couple more weeks go by i call them again i start writing them i've got a stack of letters that thick it went on for two and a half years and finally by the end of it they said he was never here we don't have any records that that pissed me off it made me mad and i think that that is really what got me hooked in the story um is that i was being jacked around by government and national facilities like that we should explain the los alamos thing because the los alamos thing coincided with him doing work at mit right is that that correct that's how he's explained it explained it yeah and the way he explained it to me i don't think i'm at liberty to say what the project was because the project the way he was describing it is uh essentially internationally illegal like what they were working on and that's one of the reasons why he was saying he explained what the project was it sounded very feasible also very evil and then it was it was basically a weapon and then he said that this is the reason why there was no actual record of him studying at mit it wasn't important that he got a degree it was important that he understand that the technical specifications of what they were attempting to accomplish that's my understanding as well and you know it's always been the most problematic part of his background and it's where a lot of people in the bob lazar story that's where they stop but the thing is when you listen to him talk and when he describes thing it's very clear he's educated oh he's a brilliant guy but here's i had always told him and i've you know bob you're my friend i want to have a conversation with you about these claimed degrees because i didn't believe that he'd ever sat down you know in those days you go to a college like mit or caltech and get a degree you've got to take classes in something other than science you'd have to i could not imagine bob lazar taking an english lit class to save his life but he is a brilliant guy he i'll give you an example in april covet thing is is raging my wife and i are staying at home we're getting packages delivered for food and things of that sort i'm a little worried they didn't know about contact whether you can get it off of cardboard boxes or whatever and i mentioned to bob in a phone conversation i'm thinking about buying one of these uv screener systems he goes wait a second don't buy one i think i've got the parts that i can make you one in my garage and a week later it arrives this thing he's got it in his garage handmade this big scanner with these uv things that that works he just whipped it up in his garage i'll remind you you got the the scanner i got a laser gun you got a laser gun i did man it is super powerful so it's like a handheld toy that he retrofitted with a superpower so i'm like lighting shit on fire in my house so it looks like a handheld toy but it's actually a real laser it's a toy with full noise but he put a diode in there and it's super powerful like it can light shit on fire my wife hates that shit so i got the laser gun you also got the flamethrower though lazar made a flamethrower this is before your buddy elon made flames yeah well it's a mask massive yeah he's obviously a very intelligent man um when you listen to him talk there's no bullshitting going on when he talks about very when he talks about undeniable concrete things when it comes to science when it comes to elements when it comes to propulsion systems he clearly knows what he's talking about and the the really confusing thing for people that are detractors is he really hasn't changed his story in 31 years it really is the same story and that's really hard to do even if you tell a true story 31 years later you get it screwed up a little bit it's hard like when you're calling on 30 like if i had to remember things from 31 years ago that's like i'm one year in a stand-up comedy 31 years ago i don't remember it i i barely i'm gonna tell you like oh yeah it was a sunday night and then my friend greg go actually was wednesday fuck yeah you're right it was wednesday who is the host you know we'll have it i don't know it's a blurry slideshow but bob has been remarkably consistent the only thing that he's vacillated on we varied a little bit is the whether or not he saw an alien or whether or not he saw someone who was looking at something that was the size of an alien like a small figure like whether or not they were trying to determine how large a creature would have to be to use one of those small crafts because the crafts were very small in terms of like uh for for a human being they were it was more like something that was built for a child and he walked by a window and looked inside and in some of the earlier discussions of it he believed that he might have seen an alien but he was really clear that he only saw it for literally a second as he was walking by saw something and again you know how the brain works in memory you could you can really plant false memories everybody wants to pretend their memory is so good memories are terrible well bob admitted from the beginning remember with the first interview we did i think it was june of 89 so it was a little after we did that live interview but months before we went with his id and that was really we recorded it in case something happened to him he was afraid he was going to be killed there were a lot of really weird things going on and and i was worried about it too i wanted to get it on the record in case suddenly he disappeared so we recorded this long interview and and always he downplays stuff like that that's an example yeah i might just i saw something that was that size i don't believe it was an alien it was just a glimpse maybe they're messing with my head he also admits that they did mess with his head that he had to uh they underwent some kind of uh hypnosis that they made him drink this weird green liquid probably lsd well maybe um they said it was an allergy test but yeah i mean but you know to your point just real quick is uh after 30 years it's not that he changed his story he's changed so when i was interviewing him you know he cracked the book back open with me it was like he was saying the science and technology is what i know i had my hands on that i can't attest to what i read in the documents yeah i saw something for a brief millisecond through a fucking window but i don't know what that was so so people have taken what he said and exaggerated it bob has always been skeptical of the things he didn't have his hands on and i admire that and he's changed as a human as a human he's matured so now he's saying okay let me look at it rationally i don't know what i saw through that window right i appreciate that he's so straight yeah he's very straight you know they various scenarios have popped up over the years about why he came forward there are people who believe he just made it up he was trying to make money or he wanted attention there are people who believe it's government disinformation to distract attention from something else that was going on out there or they believe both of them which you know they would seem to be mutually exclusive bob would admit that he had no business being there that they maybe that there were much more qualified people to work on those kind of things maybe he was a guy who thinks outside the box who might give a new slant on trying to figure this stuff out that they had had for decades and had not had not uh been able to duplicate we should explain that a little bit the los alamos lab story was him he put a jet engine on a honda right and it's it was a functional jet car that he built himself so he was a legitimate propulsion expert and again like a super science nerd like where he got his education is what's weird right i finally got an interview with the guy that wrote that article two weeks ago so the guy uh terry english right finally after all this time he called me back three years late you know what i mean put him in the movie and i said look here's the point you said bob lazar was a physicist at los alamos so how did you base that you're writing a paper and he goes yeah and it got picked up by ap news he goes if i had misrepresented that he was a physicist at los alamos i would have been blackballed by everybody at los alamos they take that very seriously he was a physicist i reported it ap news picked it up they repeated it not word one from anybody saying he wasn't a physicist at los alamos it's little things like that that you know nothing bob has ever said have i found out yeah this is a real hot rod and he did the story because the car was badass when he fired it up when he has a history of this he also made a hydrogen-powered corvette later on uh yeah he's uh he's a wizard he's a very smart guy you know he he will admit to you that maybe he was picked for the job they figured all right in case he blabs we can discredit this guy like that when we're done with him there's things in his background he likes it to blow things up he likes explosives he had a pirate flag on his on his house at the time that i first met him uh he he liked machine guns he you know he had an illegal fireworks show that would go out in the desert every year that became a a world-class event he uh got into some legal trouble after he'd worked out there so there's a lot of things in his life they could use to discredit him but the people who still maintain that bob was a disinformation plot it was meant to distract attention out from something else going on out there whoever came up with that idea should be fired because as a result of bob coming forward with that story area 51 is now known all over the world and i'm sorry but the bob lazar version of of that sto the tale is the one that prevailed it's known everywhere it's been in movies and books and tv shows it it's launched a thousand different uh you know project products like the the hat yeah las vegas 51s our aaa baseball team became the 51s because the lazar story the e.t highway is created and christened by our governor um you know that that story that version that he told is now known all over the world whether detractors like it or not and if somebody was trying to distract the tension away from something going on at area 51 it failed miserably because tens of thousands of people made the trek out there even today 31 years later every single day there's somebody with binoculars or a scope or something looking for whatever is flying around out there every major news organization in the world after giving me nothing but grief has made a beating a path to area 51's door all of them they have all done it and bob's story about reverse engineering craft from somewhere else is now part of a much larger and current uh series of events that we can get into yeah and that story that he told when he was on the podcast here got phenomenal response there were so many people that i talked to that were my friends who were skeptical about that shit they they call me up and go hey man i'm i'm starting to believe this is real and i'm like you should watch the documentary and then you should watch the commander fravor interview where he talks about the tick tock uh the tic tac ufo that they encountered off of san diego because you're talking about a rock-solid military man with no shenanigans in his background who is telling a story about a craft that they cannot explain doing things that defy physics in our understanding of propulsion systems and quite a few people from that interview have completely changed their tune friends of mine who thought it was total horseshit have done a 180 and they're like fuck is this real then the new york times story came out of course and the new york times is showing all these images of these ufos and these these things that they can't explain that all exhibit very similar propulsion methods or at least speeds that they can't explain they move the same way and there's legitimate people legitimate scientists now that are starting to take this into consideration and say okay if this is from earth then there's got to be some sort of a program that has technology that's far beyond anything we knew was possible how did they do that is it because there's some super geniuses that the government gets a hold of right when they're in college and they immediately ship them off to the desert and have them create this stuff or are we in fact encountering something like us from the future or something from another place that has had a completely different path to technology but it's not outside the realm of possibility we're here we're here sending videos through our phones to each other you know we're talking to people that you know it's being relayed but through the sky we're watching films that are instantly downloaded wirelessly from these servers i mean with the just the technology that we have right now is completely alien to anybody who was around in roswell in 1947 from 1947 to 2020 in terms of the universe is not even a half of a blink of an eye and then boom things have changed so radically it's not it's not crazy to think that something from somewhere is far ahead of us yes so that's one of the big things getting commander fravor in that room with bob was so cool because people bob talks to whoever he's talking with he helps you understand what he's saying he can go into high specified detail on stuff but typically he's just talking to whoever's there when when i got him in front of commander fraver all of us and matt we were all in the room it was amazing because commander fraber saw it too he saw something like bob saw it and the way that the craft the tic tac moved it it cannot be something that we have because it was clearly gravitationally propelled this is something they talk about commander framers saw it bouncing like a ping-pong ball on the inside of a glass the the inertia being able to go and the coolest thing bob said was well command favored dave it could have been a a subject to a time distortion so you're seeing it one way and they started talking about gravity amplification it was just so cool to see them talk without an audience what the fuck did commander fraber see and bob was it's cool that when he can be calm and chill like that and just talk to another human and what's crazy is what commander fravor is describing is what bob was describing the propulsion systems of 1989 they were working on straight up it's the exact same thing even the way it turns sideways to move to move off well that's exactly how he was describing it yeah that's which is crazy you know we have this video and everybody says oh it's this it's that it's another plane an fa18 dude i've talked with a dude at boeing now who he serviced these pods that it was caught on the gimbal that thing is self-rotating it is a saucer-shaped thing that is rotating mechanically against the wind we they all know that this is has to be a gravity-propelled program we we understand the science that it takes to do it we can't replicate jeremy pull that so i i always do that it's okay we have it right up to your face we can't replicate it right with our material sciences our best information at this time we can't replicate this technology but we do understand how it works fundamentally fundamentally we just don't have the power to actually make it the material science even just the actual physical material science the materials it's made out of and that's what's been in the news now metamaterials that there are materials from craft that we have george will talk about that but lazar is parallel with what we're seeing today yeah and what's also really bonkers is in 89 he was talking about element 115. he wasn't even scientifically proven to exist until 2013. so in 1989 he was talking about this is science fiction he's making things up in 2013 they actually were able to create for a brief moment an element 115 which is this insanely dense element that they believe is perhaps the propulsion system for this craft it was always theorized of course element 115 but fabricating it was an achievement but yeah if you're talking about being a winner every time history writes itself right bob is it's insane he's batting 100 he knew there was a place called s4 there had been no no articles about that no mention i looked for it you know i called nellis air force base and asked him do you have a place called s4 anywhere on the range yeah in fact we have more than one so can you tell me where they are no can you tell me what goes on there no well there was a facility at papoose i i think it was built in the into the side of the mountain and you can see the dirt road on the old satellite photos why were people going down there and then of course the video he goes out there with his friends when he thinks he's going to be killed or or he's going to disappear and he and three weeks in a row you've talked about on this program and they videotaped this and all the witnesses who were there have verified it and it was not over area 51 it was over papua's which officially has no no facility nothing has ever been there bob knew a lot of stuff that he couldn't have known otherwise and it's it's been proven and he didn't know stuff that was disproven he didn't come out he didn't make up a bunch of crazy shit that you go like like the william cooper book right like there's a lot of people that have speculated what that was all about whether william cooper was just schizophrenic whether he was writing some truths mixed in with crazy things so you could discount the truth i mean that is that is a real strategy that the government will employ if they know that information is going to get leaked out and they want to somehow another discredit it they'll connect it to really loony stuff that is absolutely not true and you'll say where did you get that information oh i got it from behold the pale horse oh christ did you read all the stuff in that book right i mean so there's there's that thought but there's none of that with bob with bob everything that he talked it's it's so eerie every time you turn over a stone i think i'm going to find at first that's how george and i met i thought i was going to see these guys cooked it up that was my first entry point in 2012 i thought they cooked it up every stone you turn over to be clear what george just said bob always said there's a place called site four that was never mentioned anywhere at papoose he verified it in 1989 with head of public relations who was a homie of his at area 51. we then call 30 years later and they give us the funniest fucking answer trying to not talk about site force so he confirmed it every time you turn over a stone man every time bob's proven right and it's it's annoying what was the experiment that he did with element 115 that you guys videotaped it was that available online could someone watch that no so it was called a cloud chamber test so he he had this stuff i know people don't believe that it exists and he never had any of it they're welcome to believe it but he had he had a piece of it he didn't steal a piece the only time i ever saw it was in his lead shield round disc and he had it uh for a while it was in another because it's radio radioactive i think it's stable i don't think it's radioactive that's how it was shipped to him so it's in a disk protect it from bombardment because it will become unstable very quickly that's how he says they used it in the craft so yeah he had it in a puck and and fi and a hockey puck looking um yeah like a metal sandwich and it's lead yeah yeah yeah and i showed it and i had it in the background in one of our stories just out of an inside joke it's sitting in there but bob used to keep it in front of a particle accelerator that he had built at his home you know every every non-scientist every non-scientist builds a particle accelerator in their home and he had it there when he thought he was going to be killed he it was sort of a defense mechanism for him he had it right in front all he had to do is flip a switch and he he thought it could explode um i think he meant to scare people from coming in trying to trying to take him out but this cloud chamber test was the only time i think he ever took it out of this thing and i got there right as that as the experiment ended where they had this little chamber and it bent light now they were they showed me the video i don't pretend to be a scientist i i don't try to be an expert on things i really don't know but it looked to me like light was bending in this experiment which it shouldn't be able to do it's a like a laser that bent i've seen some of this jeremy i was able to find man this was a search so george from day one when you have it right now on video uh on me it's in my movie right yeah okay so but basically what happened is it's so annoying i'm like you guys have footage of this because bob never filmed this to put out to the public it was to show his friends like taking them to the test site show them the saucers it was so his friends didn't think he was fucking crazy so they film it and lo and behold they give it to george it's in a brown case it's somewhere in his archives i've sorted through his whole damn house man i can't find this tape so then i asked bob is there anywhere this could be anywhere else this is important footage bob and i find it sandwiched between two golden girls episodes on some tape he kind of recorded over so i got out to the public what 17 or 30 seconds of this cool down phase of the test is that online anywhere it's it's in my film i can put it on right but is it online is it no no no no i got it i found it in these old tapes they they created but you know how to people take little things from movies and sometimes oh yeah maybe maybe somebody it but i'll i'll post it man i'll put it it's cool it's cool it doesn't but bob says he's so unimpressed with everything he's like jeremy that doesn't show the cool part of the test it's just the cool down period and i'm like well it shows that you filmed this with your friends back then and that at least you believed you had 115. so what i have in the film it's not definitive proof but it shows that they weren't lying that they filmed it george was there bob would just assume that that goes away that people not talk about it yeah that's it that's it jimmy's the best jamie so what's happening here explain this looks like he's growing a plant or some shit right so this is why bob was so unimpressed with what i found sandwiched in his personal home videos that's the disc that's the top of the disc look across yeah so he was trying to show his friends like today if you had a laser pointer so here's the here's the cloud you can look at it over there jeremy if you don't want to turn around oh got it um so so if bob had a laser pointer back then with the principles of the 115 which he did get out and he doesn't where's the 115 in this image inside of the this the clam shell inside of the puck so that's that surface we're looking at the surface of this clamp at the top of this thing yeah and so he'd he'd have it in there now the whole sensitivity for him is his real world implications if he's telling the truth to us about it i don't understand what i just saw though i didn't see anything you didn't see it bendy we don't really play that again it's the only piece of the tape that still exists but it's not the key part of that all it shows joe is that they filmed a home experiment back then he demonstrated for his friends how light was bent by the material itself i understand that but i'm not seeing that you're not you're not seeing so this is the only piece of the tape that still exists but it's not this the central piece was this in the film yeah it was briefly i didn't highlight it because it was like i'm not seeing anything in this this is what's confusing to me this seems like nothing like nothing's going on at all right that that's the point is that he has a long version george blame him yeah it's my fault but i understand but why is this in the film then if nothing's happening it was a splash over him when he was talking about 115 he doesn't like how talking about how he got it out but it was like a easter egg jeremy wanted to demonstrate that that had been the recording did exist at one point but that's the only piece that's left of it i'm the guy who got the tape so you got a full table i got this one where it is i have no idea is it in your house somewhere i doubt it i mean i've looked he's looked i've looked where could it be dude you should you should see his house yeah joe i looked for years man i went through made him take and digitize all these tapes i took hundreds of tapes and digitized them looking for this little two minutes that seems like a big deal though yeah it's a really big deal i mean i've i've got thousands of tapes um from that era and i have saved them all and i've moved them around and then i'd use them in different productions i can't find it i know that that is very unsatisfactory for people and that i've been accused of making it up it's actually very appropriate considering the history of this stuff yes it's kind of funny frustrating as fuck man of course but but kind of funny the the aftermath of bob coming forward of course it it messed with his life uh in a big way and you know he was not all that much of a he was sort of a semi recluse anyway but the stuff that goes on here even 31 years later you know what it's like these uh fanboys he's got people that got the bob lazar disease really bad and they still deal with them they spend their days now all these years later focusing on bob they're two weeks ago somebody put something on twitter it was an interview some these guys had gone to new mexico to find people that had worked with lazar a long time ago and then tried to dig up dirt hey you remember working with bob or you knew him back then yeah did he have uh teenagers working for him at his photo shop yeah you ever seen anything weird with him and little girls no the guy says and then the interviewer says well we heard that he tried to solicit a 14 year old girl to work at a at a brothel and then they put this the guy says i don't think about that they put this on twitter with the headline bob lazar solicited 14 year old girl to go into prostitution so who who's doing this just some discussions online trolls people who've got it bad um and there's so many of them that every day they post something about bob lazar it's really yeah every day dude well i think ufos attract a certain percentage of schizophrenics totally but this is like so horrible the way that his story i mean they just i've never seen it like this i've never i get it i because i did a film on bob i get death threats because of bob that's how that's his life every day you know i remember i had a military guy who i had asked uh years ago about disinformation you know do you guys have to see disinformation out there to discredit the ufo story he said we don't have to plan anything ufo people do it all to themselves i mean they're nuts yeah i had a i got a phd in ufology in essence by working on that story and then subsequent stories because the public had reacted in such a way all right i'm going to stick with it but that what you run into in the topic it's no wonder that you've gone back and forth on it so have i yeah questioning whether is this a good use of my time because there are so many of them that are absolutely nuts and and um psychopaths and they make stuff up and and they also make a living doing it like jamie and i were watching ancient aliens the other day and we were laughing we're like like what are the qualifications of being a ufo researcher like you don't have to have a degree you just you have to be a bullshit artist who's willing to get on the history channel and talk about ufos like literally you just have to know a few facts that you could spit out and some guys were clearly reading off of a script i'm like this has got to be the lowest bar for like in terms of like what does your son do oh he's a scientific expert on the history channel amazing you know but what is he really he's a fucking ufo researcher well what does that mean it just means he's a guy who's into ufos who can string words together in a in an appropriate sentence that seems like he knows what he's talking about so they put him on tv and when i did that sci-fi show joe rogan questions everything i lost all my faith in ufo research yeah yeah and i brought it back because of your your documentaries what brother and dave foley because you're talking to dave fucking love dave i love dave yeah and but he's so into it man i'm like really he's like you got to look into this you got to look into that you know he's telling all these things i'm like all right one more time here we go and then when i watched your documentary i was like holy shit and it really rekindled my thoughts about bob lazar because i remember being really interested in it in the 90s the topic itself discourages serious inquiry by journalists by scientists because you have to wade through so much crap you know 90 95 of it is total crap or it is honest misidentifications of prosaic objects but that five percent it's really interesting and it's why the government is now you know looking into it once again yeah it is really weird to see the government looking into it openly that's what's strange like the fact that they're like the younger version of me would be like bracing myself for contact like it's coming if they're talking to us about it now because my thought was always like they probably if ufos are real and aliens exist they have it in contact they probably don't think we can handle it so they probably want to keep us as calm as possible and just dismiss everything and go back to work go back to sleep do what you got to do don't pay attention to this this is all nonsense and that's what most people do but when the government is actually openly discussing the fact that they not only have been studying this but they have some video footage of some things they cannot explain and they're saying this just out in public in legitimate recognized publications newspapers television shows it's it's weird to see very weird for me now it's you know 33 years that i've been chasing this and i become and i don't want to talk about me but i mean i become the ufo reporter whether i like it or not i'm not the ufo reporter i'm a reporter who is interested in that the ufo stories i've done and all that time it's been a lot but as a percentage of all the reports that i do it's small right i'm a news guy i chase bad guys mostly for the i-team but those those ufo stories have gone all over the world the ufo field is so polluted with um with liars and exaggerators and fast buck artists and and people who appropriate this story for their own political agendas um to make money to get attention uh it it takes 90 percent of your energy just to wade through the crap and and get to the hard facts and there aren't that many of them and to figure out who's telling the truth who's reliable who's honestly trying to pursue the story and get to the truth um it's it's a it's a task that is difficult and i i don't blame other journalists for not giving it a fair shake because it's not something you could do in a week i remember saying to myself is how cocky i was in the beginning is you know i'm reading these ufo books and boy this field is a mess but there is some good information in here give me six months and i'll have this figured out well there's 33 years later i know less than i did now i know i have a lot more facts in my head but all the big questions we don't have answers to them i don't think anybody does who they are where they're from why they're here what they're interested is in us what the long-term agenda is we don't know that and i don't think anybody does i've gone pretty far high up the food chain as a career journalist what what did it feel like to you when you started seeing the government actually coming out and saying we are trying to investigate these reports we know that there is something to them these are real claims by you know real pilots real scientists have have reviewed these things and they find them troubling it it's a it's a mix uh the most immediate reaction is astonishment because of all the years i'm chasing this everywhere you go you run into brick walls when dealing with the government that's really what got my attention and where i wanted to focus because i can't go out and wait for ufos to show up although i've done that but i wanted to follow the paper trail the government has this whole big long history of documents that they exchanged reports memos incident reports about ufos uh before the freedom of information act became the law of the land and they're very candid with each other they're not that way anymore they hide stuff uh but back in those days they were candid that this is from somewhere else this is real it's not fictitious we we need to look into this we got to make sure it's not russians or chinese and we have to figure out who's got this technology because we don't it's not ours and then of course when freedom of information act became the law of the land all these agencies that had lied about it nope we don't have any ufo reports have to cough up thousands and thousands of pages they have absolutely stonewalled this and lied to the public for a long time so to finally see them admit yes we're taking it seriously which i have known all along of course they have to study this unknown craft float over our nuclear missile bases disarm the missiles we have fighter jets go after them they leave them in the dust they can fly circles around our best technology they mess with nuclear power plants nuclear weapons nuclear facilities like los alamos it is a national security issue and they have been paying attention to it they just haven't been telling us so for the new york times to come out in december 2017 and say yeah there was a program and yeah they've been looking at ufos oh by the way it's all done now well it's still a mixture of lies and and some glimpses of truth but i never thought i would see this in my lifetime i never thought i'd see this much progress the last two and a half years has been the most astonishing time in the history of this subject and i'll tell you joe there is stuff bubbling right under the surface now that is going to uh rock our world i think in the next year or so did you see trump on tv being interviewed by his son yeah it was kind of hilarious yeah there's very interesting things very very interesting we're going to open roswell we're going to open roswell i think commentary 51. yeah well he's barely paying attention i think he has been briefed yeah i think he has been briefed more than once you know i think because he watches tucker carlson and tucker's got ufo people on there once a month does he yeah he's been he's had for the last year he's had ufo people once a month or so lou elizondo and chris mellon and people like that and uh i thought that would if anything that would get trump's attention because you know that's what he pays attention to right that's that's hilarious these stories about ufos over nuclear bases and and weapons facilities and things along those lines has that been substantiated oh yeah yeah so this happened tell me the stories 1975 they called it the northern tier case so we have a string of bases up by the canadian border all the way across the u.s from maine to montana nuclear missile facilities they were ready to go in the darkest days of the cold war those those missiles icbms are ready to go aimed at moscow and other places and in 1975 74 and 75 one after another these bases were visited they thought they were mystery helicopters or something lights in the sky right over the missiles in a couple of cases they they disabled the missiles if we had gone to war we wouldn't have had those missiles being able to fire there are some indications that the launch control codes were interfered with and then we scrambled jets the military personnel had reported this up and the things go away we can't catch them whatever they were it clearly is a threat to national security can i stop you for a second is there an official record of these encounters yes and those documents you can find them washington post broke the story in the 70s they had obtained some of these documents after freedom of information act came forward and then the the most recent study bass asap that we could talk about they also really focused on the northern tier cases and they looked up some of those guys they found uh some of the nuclear missile officers and security personnel and interviewed him and they told the story all over again there was a guy named robert hastings ufo's and nukes he has been his specialty for the last 30 years he wrote a book made a film it's chilling part of what has happened is it not only happened to us the u.s but in russia so once i got ufo fever and became a ufo reporter i traveled all over the world and one of the places i went twice was russia after the fall of the soviet union it occurred to me that maybe we might be able to learn more from the russians about what our government knows about ufos than our government will ever tell us and i met a russian physicist who was here in uh in the u.s to lecture on disarmament issues at national labs he was getting ready to go back to russia he had been the national security adviser to boris yeltsin he was a national security adviser to the russian parliament he had taught russian cosmonauts how to spot american nuclear submarines from space he was connected so i had a beer with him at the suggestion of a u.s congressman and i said hey nikolai you ever hear any of your guys in russia at high levels talk about ufos now can't can't really think that i that doesn't ring a bell we have another beer and he says you know i do have a guy at the kgb who told me that they had looked into it for a while and i thought well uh they had just the kgb had just released its oswald files i thought maybe this is a golden opportunity to find out what they know because they are a superpower they have nuclear weapons they would have seen the same things we've been seeing so i went to russia we sent nikolai over to back to moscow gave him a stipend and his instructions were find people who were in a position to know high up in the military or the polit of the government who had never talked about this before and it took about eight months for him to report back and get all these people lined up and then i went to russia and met him and interviewed him and these were former military guys there was a guy named colonel borosokolov who was a gold mine of information he told us about a previously unknown study probably the biggest ufo study in the history of the world for 10 years from 78 to 88 the russian military empire every military unit in russia in their whole military global if they saw any ball of light anomalous aircraft ufo anything weird like that they had to report it to the kgb and all that information went to one desk at the ministry of defense colonel sokolop was that desk and they had thousands of reports that had never been made public before he told me about 45 different incidents where russian warplanes had chased ufos couldn't catch them three of the instances these ufos shot him down two of those pilots died and after that he said the order went out look if you see these things don't mess with them he said their study was for a very practical reason these craft could do things that the russians could not and they wanted to get an advantage over the americans in terms of stealth technology so they wanted to do what people in reverse engineering programs are doing figure out how the ufos work so they could have an advantage over us i had to smuggle some of these documents back if i had been caught with this stuff because some of it was classified if i'd been caught i'd still be in a gulag somewhere but i got it back i shared it with some people it eventually found its way into the u.s government's hands and it it tells us basically a lot of what we now know about our own government that they have always taken this seriously and one of the incidents i'm sorry i made the long way around on that story was an icbm base in the ukraine colonel sokolov says that a giant ufo appeared over this base these are missiles that are trained to go to new york and los angeles they're very serious stuff there it's a very secure facility giant ufo appears over this base it splits into pieces and then it melds back apart and and it performs this dazzling display for a couple of hours that base is on high alert and all of a sudden the nuclear control facilities lights up like a christmas tree and whenever this thing was it entered the launch control codes the missiles were enabled they start firing up they're ready to go and then poof ufo goes away the whole thing shuts down it goes back to normal colonel sokolov said his team he and his team sent there to investigate it they took those machines apart could not figure out what it had done and he told me on camera we think that they were sending us a message that these are your most powerful weapons but we're not impressed same kind of thing happened here we don't like to admit it but there's a pretty strong paper trail that it really did happen now what is a bigger national security issue than that or like the tic tac you've got a nuclear powered uh carrier there and other warships around it and you've got these strange radar sightings for a couple of weeks right off the coast of the u.s this is an intruder and even though these aliens whatever they are are not firing beams and wiping out our our cities you have to consider it a threat that's the job of our defense department they don't know what it is but they know it shouldn't be there and it's not ours um and i think that's what the program is going on right now it's a legitimate national security issue it deserves to be investigated in spite of the larger social implications that we're not alone the the tick tock craft or tic tac craft god damn the tic tac craft um that was spotted off san diego it performed something spectacular in terms of its ability to go from the surface of the of the water to sixty thousand feet in how long so uh less less less than a second but there's actually more to it there there was a craft remember i was talking with commander favor before this was public yeah there was a craft under the water too the tic tac would drop from sixty thousand feet is what they're saying sixty to eighty but that's the scan volume of the spy one radar so everybody i've talked to said they were coming from above they were coming from outer space dropping down within a second and stopping on a dime and then making the movements commander fravor saw like inside of a glass then he said to me in our first talk ever i'll never forget this because i'm talking to a fighter pilot and i got a talk fighter pilot and i'm i don't you know and he says to me it noticed me i go what do you mean it noticed you he says as i was descending rapidly to engage it it turned its nose and began to intelligently mirror my movements came right up by me and he says faster than you can see a like you can't even see a bullet leave a gun no it's just bam shot off he goes we don't have anything like that i wish we did we don't whatever propels that is not a reactionary propulsion system meaning it's not pushing something off the back to get it to go forward like everything is fire and explosion it's a field proposal yeah like anything else we know you've got to have something going back to go forward rockets we're still using the same ones from back in the day this thing instantaneously without effects of inertia can move now and that distortion that's exactly how bob described these things would work or do work in his opinion so commander fraber got to see it now and these incursions by the way look there's stuff george reports on there's a lot he doesn't as a filmmaker myself people tell me stories all the time these incursions it's not a rarity these are happening to this day i just heard about one in guam incursions over high security air space over our weapons systems and in guam there was just recently an incursion the pantex facility with the igloos where we hold our nuclear weapons and stuff like that there are incursions over these so to george's point the the reason why maybe all this is secret is not because we can't handle it people flip out maybe we just want to make sure we fucking get this tech first because it's a game changer now let's talk about the people that have tried to debunk this and why they're off because they've made some debunking claims about some of these videos and about the technology that was used to track these things that's incorrect where they don't they don't really understand what they're debunking right so please please explain that because that's one of the things that people are immediately going to go to they're going to go well mick west has already debunked it and i've read the stuff that he says it's mental gymnastics to try to explain it the way he's explaining it without recognition of the fact that these things were actively blocking radar these things were actively blocking tracking systems these were physical crafts this is not like a bird no or so like a lot of the wacky theories that he has are like i wonder you know it's real weird like that a smart man can make such really bizarre conclusions very weird almost like someone wants him to do those sure i mean look it's so exciting that that we're seeing something and the government's saying okay these are ufos we have not identified them they have propulsion techniques that we don't have and we're not we're just talking about the videos let's talk about the debunking okay talk about the debunking and what his claims are in the debunking okay so one that i recently like you know attacked because it was so ridiculous is he was saying that the go fast video which is this you know object that goes along uh in a straight line one of the three videos that was released he said what was probably a bird that was his first theory let's pull up the go fast video yeah i mean i recently went deep into talking with uh boeing experts who who work on these flear pods they're telling me how they work what they can capture why explain what a flare pod is a for a forward-looking infrared so basically on fighter planes you have a camera so here's the video we're pulling it up right sure that it's mounted and it's essentially recording in thermal imagery these things are this is not instagram these things are weapons systems that are highly trained to be able to accurately represent uh spatial awareness and to be able to target you know enemy combatants that's this is not an iphone an instagram these are weapons for us so out of the three videos if we just look at this one although i like the tic tac one with commander fraber and i like the gimbal one those are awesome this one gives us very little information but the idea that this would be a bird if you talk to anybody that uses these pods you don't you can't pinpoint on a bird you can't lock a weapon system on a freaking bird well look how fast it's going too well here's what's so interesting is everybody can debate speed so this is where it's locked in on it right so the weapon system is locked in on this thing and it's tracking it now right and and they got real excited when they locked it because it's they they said boxed a moving target right they so here's the deal though out of anything i could say about this video because there's not a lot of information in there what i can say is that object you're seeing is colder than the surface of the ocean now i looked up the surface of the ocean temperature at that location at that time because we had the information it was like 65 degrees what propulsion system so okay so a bird a bird is about a hundred and let's say five degrees like a seagull sea goals can go maybe 15 miles an hour i don't know how fast they can go but there they wouldn't they wouldn't be colder than the ocean they'd be hypothermic and dead it cannot be a bird because this uh what we're seeing is a colder object than the surface of the water that's why you're seeing it white and how fast is it going that's under debate there's different um interpretations yeah so i'm i'll give you one interpretation about you know 240 miles an hour some people say and then they can argue well the fastest bird in a nosedive could go that fast back up we have an object that is colder than the surface of the ocean that immediately gets rid of the bird theory because a bird would be hypothermic and drop like a paperweight into the water it cannot fly at that so that's the piece of information i would attack that debunking with but this video when you're watching that if it is going 200 miles an hour that's not outside of what's possible with with spacecraft or aircraft or or just planes right but it's cold i understand that that's pretty cool but it is no it's very interesting but it's not moving anywhere near as fast as the tic tac no no no this is just something because this is part and george can tell you this was part of a much bigger series of events so like the gimbal craft itself that's another debunking thing they said it's a plane banking away and you're seeing it through thermal first of all talk with the pilot not fucking so this is the gimbal yeah the gimbal is pulling it up right now and how fast is this thing supposed to be going you know the speed from what i recall wasn't registered on the um on the radar it's not that it's going fast if you talk with the pilots it was rotating it was spinning like a top and for like 11 hours without refueling i mean the thing was just sitting out there this was not a this is an occurrence that happened over a course of many many weeks now when it rotates like that the debunking theory is that you're seeing a plane bank so as if our military doesn't know what another plane is other planes look very different when you see them through thermal this thing was self-rotating and i just did an interview and how fast is this or rather how warm is this thing supposed to be is this supposed to actually be hot i i i am unaware because you're looking at it through thermal right yeah i'm unaware of the specifics of that one when it comes to heat all i know is that it is self-actuating it is not something that is a glare or flare of a heat signature making it look like it's turning the actual craft is self-actuating and what is the that halo around it that's just an artifact of the of the flea thermal it's not but the the premise that uh the us government would tell you all right look we're going to release these videos reluctantly lou elizondo is the guy that got him released and then the us government formally released them a couple of months ago the idea that the u.s government would release it the pentagon says these are unidentified the and you know if it was a bird or a uh a jet engine uh the pilots would not have the kind of reaction that they had that you can hear on the audio our government does not tell uh members of congress the pentagon doesn't go to the senate intelligence committee show them those videos and say um yeah it's unidentified if it isn't and you know the reaction of the pilots uh the the fact that they would were forced to release it to begin with suggest that it really is unidentified why do you think they've addressed it why do you think that they have addressed the fact they're studying these things why not just continue denying it i think they were forced to uh and some props to tom delong i know you guys had a pretty spirited conversation when he was here but he created that organization um lou elizondo who ran that program came forward and brought with him those videos i saw them two days after uh louis lozando stepped on a stage with tom and said i was in charge of the program he and chris mellon have been sort of the engineers of getting that story into the new york times that changed everything as i said the last two and a half years um everything has turned on its head the new york times covers the story the result is other media covered as well they've been ignoring it forever and and and that allowed people who keep these secrets that pressure meant that people in congress started asking questions two days after the story came out i interviewed senator harry reid who was the one who got the money to create that program that became atep and he said his phone had been ringing off the hook from other members of congress who are now suddenly interested i didn't know there was a program they're telling him how do we learn more about this it started a series of closed door briefings on capitol hill that continued to this day the pilots like dave fravor were hauled before congress first in front of the staff of the senate intelligence and then senate armed services and then the elected members these these senators who get briefed on it and they were impressed and they wanted more pilots to come in so it's been going on for two and a half years and two weeks ago no excuse me about a month ago now the culmination of it senator marco rubio is now the chairman of the senate intelligence committee drops this bill and it's the budget for the intelligence budget for the next year and he includes a ufo provision in there we want congress wants to have a mechanism set up where we get regular briefings from the pentagon on ufos that's an astonishing change of events it's because the media pressure and then congressional interest it made it um more acceptable for everybody to pursue the subject matter it's kind of out of the shadows and the pentagon has reacted in fits and starts so sometimes as they said to the new york times that program ended had nothing to do with ufos at first they said it did then they said it didn't they've admitted lou elizondo worked on the program then they said he didn't um they've said that the awsap which is the other program the mother program that became atep that that had nothing to do with the ufos what it did so they continued to sort of lie and obfuscate and muddy the waters but the fact is that there's too much momentum from media and congress and the public to hide this anymore you should tell joe about how the the government program awesome was created directly because george wrote this book about a little place called skinwalker ranch where the government was studying this property that happened because of his book some dia guys well you should tell the story i visited that place yeah but you yeah right yeah yes yeah i i i think you got a i think you got a little misleading tell him tell him how the governments that he had started you know from your work it's fascinating so some of it some of it stems back to lazar so we did that story in the series in 89 one of the first people to call me after that was a guy i'd never heard of before named robert bigelow a billionaire he calls me up and says i was really interested in that i've been interested in ufos for a long time can i help you meaning can he help fund me i said i work for a tv station i don't need any help but he was not to be deterred he then reached out to lazar they had a little he started meeting with him and and pumping up for information and that really amplified bigelow's lifelong interest in it he created something called nids the national institute for discovery science which he he made a science advisory board of the best and the brightest in the both the ufo field and the field of consciousness so they're looking at two questions is there is there life elsewhere in the universe is it here and is uh do humans survive after death and he assembled this board a former cia guys two former astronauts men who had walked on the moon dr edgar mitchell dr hal put off physicists um psychologists a really a brilliant little think tank to take on these two topics i was allowed to be a fly on the wall for some of it not all of it but some and i told harry reid about it in 1996 and he said can i go and so he showed up and sat in on the meetings and he was kind of hooked harry reid was the first person i told about bob lazar outside of our newsroom when i before we aired the stories he had i'd known him since he first ran for uh congress in 1982 then he becomes senate majority leader so he'd always had an interest in it but he didn't want it to be known publicly that does not help your re-election chances so in 2005 we write the book about skinwalker ranch nids that team bought the ranch they were on the property for seven or eight years at that point and had hundreds of different incidents that they investigated they approached it like scientists would they looked for prosaic explanations they look for gravity anomalies they like look for psychoactive plants could there be hallucinations caused by magic mushrooms or something are the witnesses lying they investigated the background of the family that had lived there and they found out that they it could not be uh explained all the range of activity there so it was not only you have an activity we're talking about well which starts with ufos because that's what got their attention the uinta basin in northeastern utah has always been a ufo hotspot everybody who lives there basically has seen them balls of light orbs structured craft daylight night time in 1976 a guy named dr frank salisbury wrote a book about it the utah ufo display and he took hundreds of these cases that had been collected by the locals there was a local science teacher named junior hicks who because he had taught generations of kids science in that area when they people would see ufos they'd call up junior hicks and he went and go and investigate him and he'd had hundreds and hundreds of files he gave them over this guy salisbury who wrote a book about it and he said these are real you know they're going on but junior hicks would disregard any high strangeness cases that came along with the ufos anything weird bigfoot ghosts anything like that he thought it was too incredible and he and he discarded that bigelow buys the ranch he hears about these stories going on on this one property flies in meets with a rancher and by this time that rancher and his family had lived on the ranch for 20 months and they were so scared that he his wife and his two kids were all sleeping at night on the floor in the same room because it had messed with them so badly um their property had had ghost type activity poltergeist kind of things trickster activity for example the wife goes shopping to the grocery store she buys it all this food comes back puts it on the table takes out puts it in the shelves leaves the room comes back in all the food's back in the bag she would take a shower in the morning locks the door puts a towel and a hairbrush on the cabinet gets out of the shower door's still locked hairbrush and towel are gone dad's out in the field he is digging a post hole using a post hole digger happy piece of equipment he stops for a second wipes his brow looks back and it's gone and they find it two weeks later up in a tree they start hearing voices at night in in the air speaking of strange language they start seeing shapes outside the window at night big lurking humanoid shapes hearing heavy footsteps outside then hearing heavy footsteps inside then their animals started being mutilated cows uh would the the tracks would lead out into the snow and then just be gone calves mutilated cut up with surgical precision cats uh wiped out cut carved up dogs that were vaporized hundreds of these incidents um they would see holes in the sky like a great big hole in the sky and things flying in and out of it now this rancher college educated guy grounded uh strictly religious guy thinks the government is trying to run him off his property so he's out there at night lurking with a gun trying to catch whatever government agents are doing this stuff and it's not government agents it was something else they start seeing ufos of all shapes and sizes the first one they saw was like a they thought it was a winnebago this ranch is a beautiful place and it only has one way in and one way out they see these two lights that look like headlights down in the third homestead how did this guy get past the house here and get down there he must be stuck let's go down and help him out the lights start coming toward he and his son then they go up into the sky up over the trees and then poof gone um these different kinds of orbs the white ones that were intelligently controlled not fireflies not bugs uh blue ones that would go they seem to touch the the fear center in your brain they'd get near them they looked like a little bigger than a softball made out of glass with a swirling blue liquid scared the hell out of the animals and then it scared the hell out of the the people too this literally drove them to their knees with fear these red orbs that would stampede the cattle they lost so many cattle that they began to to think that they were going to go under they had these four prized bulls i know i'm jumping around but there's a lot of stories they had these four prized bulls 2 000 pounds each behemoths very expensive animals because they were raising cement hall cattle had them in the in the uh corral and the husband and wife they always felt like they're being watched he says to the wife as they're driving to town man if something happens to one of those bulls we'll go under we'll be done they come back a half an hour later all four of the bulls are gone they jump out they're freaking out where did they go did somebody steal them are they rustlers looking around all over the place in this corral is a metal trailer where they used to store uh tools and there's only one door into it and it's re it's locked with this heavy piece of wire the door is still locked the wire is still on there the guy just as a last resort he looks into the grating on top of this trailer and there's the four bulls inside doors still locked they're all crammed in there now you could take a forklift you could have a team of 50 people and they couldn't get those bulls in that trailer but there they were he yells to his wife hey honey they're in here and when he says that the bulls wake up as if out of a a trance kicked the the door down and all got out the nids team which had been on the property for a couple of years at that point um fly in they had been in las vegas they fly back in they look around they check out the animals the whole corral which is made out of metal had been magnetized so whatever technology was used to get those bulls from the corral into that trailer left a magnetic signature they were there on the property the knit skies for several years bigelow owned it for 20 years but eventually they gave up whatever this thing was this intelligence it did not like being stalked and it played tricks on them and they never made the stuff public because what are you going to do write a paper about this who who's going to print it you can't make a a a documentary about it because they weren't there is there any evidence well all this we're saying those cattle mutilations i guess that's some evidence but that's the only evidence of cows and we can mutilate cows what what about all this other stuff like for the first 20 months when the rancher is there they don't have any evidence because he's not a paranormal investigator they're not taking photos or something they want it to go away so they don't have any evidence of that except for what the rancher told them but then they talked to the larger community and the same thing has been happening to all the neighbors the guy who lives next door had lost all these cattle as well seized the craft sometimes these craft would float around they looked like uh stealth fighters with christmas lights around them floating around silently again again not really i mean so bigelow puts up cameras all over the property and you had them focused here where some activity had happened before the thing moves over here you you move the prop the camera's in focus there it goes away toward the end of the study whatever it was that was there ripped the one of these cameras would rip the shreds if they're up on top of a telephone pole 30 40 feet in the air and there's wires that are all secured all the way down the telephone pole and they notice that one of their cameras goes out they figure well there's another camera on another pole that should have a view of whatever it was that tore this up some kind of animal or whatever or whatever it was was invisible and i know it's very frustrating it certainly was for them and for me to try to write about it in that this thing didn't want to be caught it wanted to demonstrate it that it was there but it didn't want to have evidence the calf that was mutilated was in i know it's it's it's a lot to handle yeah the calf that was mutilated it was a sunday morning it's 10 o'clock on a quiet morning it's daylight the rancher and his wife are there by themselves they're tagging newborn calves tagged their ears and they tagged this one right by the ranch house 50 yards from their home and they go off across the property it's a clear day it's unobstructed that their dog is with them and makes a noise that points them back toward that first calf that they had uh tagged and the and the dog indicates that something's wrong and they see the mom cow is dragging its leg and going around in a semicircle it's in distress they go running back over there and this calf had been completely stripped of flesh nothing left but a hide and bone and one of the femur bones have been ripped out and thrown on the side well they call in the nids guys they bring in trackers there are no tracks there's no human tracks no no vehicle tracks no animal tracks the thing had been completely stripped of blood there's not a drop of blood on the ground it's gone 75 pounds of meat gone again over a time period of 30 minutes um is there a team of commandos that comes in and does that uh where's reporters yeah and there's this is there's evidence of this yeah photographs yeah video can we see that yeah where is it i mean i made a movie called for the skinwalker it's in there right is that the only place yeah it's it's probably it's probably some other places there's photos and videos i mean so that the i'm with you man what's the speculation about like why why would they do this and why would they do the cattle mutilations like what is yeah is there any speculation some so some of it is a demonstration i mean it seemed to be a demonstration to get their attention this trickster element has been reported in other places around the world there's no hot spot quite like skinwalker and i know how weird it it sounds there's no spot like that because it's never there's no spot that's been studied to that extent the nids guys were there for well big loan the property for 20 years nids was active for seven or eight then another secret study funded by the government came in under an organization called bass um that was the money that reed got he got 22 million dollars it went to bigelow as a contract and they hired all these people and fanned out all over the world to try to find ufo information but other related phenomena things that wouldn't seem normally to be connected to ufos but which are a guy from the dia had read the book and became interested and he asked for permission to go to the property this guy's a double phd a brilliant rocket scientist who had seen it and thought there were national security implications the hole in the sky in particular with things coming in and out he wondered if someone was using technology to make these things film that hole in the sky no again that's when the rancher is there by himself so he's not he's not a ufo guy he's not trying to i understand um but is there any evidence of anything weird anything other than mutilated cows well let's see the the video of the camera that was torn up by something invisible they had something that did so in the video you can see the camera being torn apart you can't see anything you can't there's nothing you can't see anything you can see before it happens uh it's normal and afterward so i think how much time is taking place between before and after i can't remember but i mean could that be hoaxed yeah if bigelow wanted to but again they weren't there to in the beginning at least for nids they weren't there to uh to try to prove that aliens are visiting they're just trying to figure out why all this weird stuff is happening in one spot right it mixes in a lot of native american lore that got mixed in the picture but it's been going on in that you went to basin for 200 years why don't know our government has studied the medic so like what is evidence it's so frustrating to me too when i was introduced to the skinwalker thing through george man i i'm with you like what's the evidence what's going on the weight of evidence is when you talk to people in the area and they all have these commonalities some people died of exotic cancers from burns from above where lights came down and hit them and that's evidence their face is completely irradiated and they fucking died so there's the cow so you have a scientist like dr colin kelleher hold on for a second that's where they found it look at that yeah just what in the fuck can that that is so cra you know did they scan the area to look for another spot where it could have been slaughtered before it was moved to this area well that's what they concluded is it had to have been taken somewhere and slaughtered and then brought back but who does that a little larger please can you just um zoom in on that because that doesn't look very surgical to me that looks like wolves yeah it was there's no just just they actually did an analysis and it was done with two types of metallic tools but look at all the jagged edges they said they so they took samples and they sent them to two pathology labs didn't tell the guys what they're looking for you tell us what you can see and this the pathologist said that two instruments had been used one was a heavy machete type instrument that had been hacked and then there is a scalpel that had surgically removed a lot of the flesh underneath it looks like something killed it and then they moved it to that spot i mean if i had a guess the way it's eaten though i mean it looks like it was eaten well there's no teeth marks there are metallic marks meaning they okay so something sharp sliced it so i think the bigger point is this was happening on this ranch with owners prior to owners prior to owners i got to talk to a lot of people so here's the deal the connection of this so george does this thing he reports on this for for 20 years that the government is now studying this ranch right because of deployment or because of all this weird stuff why is the government spending money through ossap to study this ranch and other things and that's where it gets really fucking interesting what happens after with our government programs and that's what you know this um is before we get to that this image like the the jagged edges around the rib cage that's supposedly sliced that looks like hacked okay i mean look it could let's say it's people doing this you know two farmers to get them out of there let's say it's some program i mean although the cattle mutilation thing you gave me a stack of documents this big has been studied by the fbi it was it's happened all over the country no one has ever been caught not a single person more than 10 000 cases with all the same types of cuts i mean this is not my exercise i've seen a lot of that it's really weird there isn't really weird and the lack of blood is the weirdest part of it because if see like what makes sense to me um is that something killed that they they butchered it they chopped all the meat off of it and then they removed the carcass from that area and dropped it off there yeah that's what it looks like if i had a gas that's what nids thinks there's no way that it was killed right there because you're seeing fresh clean hay underneath it everywhere there's no blood which doesn't make any sense at all i think the question is is this a government program is this something or is this a scare tactic it's been happening since the 50s like what is a weird scare tactic so click on that one below it jamie that the brown one with the green yeah that one please thank you that's that's a weird one too like there's like a hole cut out and there's a bunch of these they found all over the country and was weirdness like organs removed but the weirdest part about it is it's almost always there's no blood yeah i just investigated one which i never thought i would do but i got a call from a guy in texas you have to see it physically yeah so right before lockdown i go out and i'm like this is so wild i gotta check this out the guy calls me it's a pretty freshy one at this point now i'm no expert but i went and got samples and took them to labs and this sort of thing to see if there were tools used so you got here's my experience you get pictures of this yeah i filmed it on your phone i'll show you after i got on my phone yeah so i got great foot great fucking photos weird well listen man air drop them to me now we'll send them to jamie and we'll put it up on on the screen so other people could see okay so let me yeah after the show is not going to help us okay while you're looking i'll tell them about uh one of the theories about the cattle mutilations that dr kelleher dr colin keller developed was that uh somebody is tracking the spread of like mad cow prions through the food supply and that they've been doing it under the guise of ufos since no one would take ufos and cattle mutilation seriously they just do it in helicopters and they're instead of just stealing these cattle they're tracking how far this these indestructible prions uh travel through the food supply because it's in uh cattle it's in pigs it gets uh fed into chickens and things of that and feed it's in deer it's called chronic wasting disease in in some circles it's just weird well quantity it's just wasting diseases isn't that a that's a different prion disease than um mad cow well it's a variation cruttsville jacob disease i think too so um the same kinds of things in different species it is indestructible again so you hit a deer that's got this and you grind it up and you feed it to pigs the pigs get it yeah and then um and then it could be passed on to other species and it shows up in different ways kelleher was exploring the idea well whether or not it it might be the cause of alzheimer's or a version of mad cow in humans do you um they're all going to you right now this so this is a recent oh it says downloading so oh i'm downloading them and then oh right right right are you on the wi-fi no but it's coming through here we go it's about to go to you it says waiting okay got it boom i mean i guess this does highlight because this is my very limited amount of can you send those to jamie too jimmy yeah are you turning up on air dropped sorry i should have had to do that right away it's ready to roll his airdrop is open i don't see you bro bro hold on there there you go young jamie so this is um this is the stuff that you physically encountered okay you physically saw this cow and i'm looking at these images right now and we're gonna show them sure in a second and this is uh you said texas yeah so where where in texas oh gosh what was the name of it in the panhandle and i'm yeah i'm blanking so here's the deal oh yeah that's it so i made the the movie based on george's work of the same title hunt for the skinwalker right and that movie was telling this story about how the united states government was studying this property of land because of ufos and weird stuff that and weird stuff included things like cattle pull up this one there's a lot of weird images man this uh the the skin removed around the face right so this is my skull this is my first chance to see this for myself because last time i was on your show it was the ones in oregon had just happened up at that ranch and i thought well okay if i'm ever gonna do it now is the time to do it so i go i get this call now remind you this is a rancher this is like this is their livelihood it's this huge huge area of land that right there stop right there they're a very religious community nobody we go out to the middle of this land and in the middle there's this dead cow no blood no blood and and he had seen it prior and and the reason he called me is because in my movie you could see this special kind of slice like a jagged slice that is common to these types of things they think are real mutilations and he's looking at it he's like that's exactly like in the movie now this is a straight shooter he's a religious guy he had to ask his pastor if he could even like go on camera with me it freaks him out so he sees this now he sees dead animals all the time and he saw this cow you said before accidentally he was out shooting bb guns with his kid and he's on this big part of land and he sees this down bull and he goes over to it he's looking at it and it's unlike anything he has ever seen in all of his years before it had surgical cuts there is no doubt somebody killed cut up this animal with those classic like the ear gone uh two types of tools like a scissor type but by the way i tried to cut it it is not easy to cut so they had sharp tools and then there's like a very thin slice kind of cut so i got to take it get samples take them to labs and try to see what type of tools did this how did they do this with no blood on the ground and all the soil around it was dead so i was like well why is it all dead is that a natural thing so i took soil samples and took them to a lab and again i'm outside of my this is weird to me okay but i i think there it's a real phenomenon somebody is killing these animals something someone what however you want to say it some things someone is killing these animals in a highly specified technical way that has been repeated since the 50s on our fbi has studied it he has shown me so many reports of these in association with discs saucers does this guy have any association with discs or saucers or anything no he's just a a a guy that owns the one they just found this cattle weirdly weirdly mutilated somebody killed it yeah and he's like is this demonic is this some sort of satanist thing and i said i don't think so man this goes back in history like i'm looking at the cuts is specifically they're very unimpressive what that does doesn't look like a laser did it or some incredibly sharp scalpel no it was like it was like a serrated one was a serrated tool that's the thing i'm saying it's like something that we could do oh absolutely we'd have to somehow do it though on in texas land where the guy would shoot you in the face if you go and try to touch one of his cows that's the other thing no one's ever been caught never that's what's weird yeah it's weird it's frustrating too i've been to the ranch the skinwalker ranch in the basin more than two dozen times i've never seen anything i've interviewed the neighbors i've interviewed the scientists these are phd level guys who had seen this stuff a lot of times they have cameras that fail i mean it's you know you've heard that story before and this is very convenient that it happens just when some giant disk shows up but it does happen that their car batteries would die in the same spot um whatever it was messed with them and maybe it's humans maybe it is human technology but no humans were ever found to be doing this stuff nids was there for all those years they didn't want to tell anybody about it they shared the information with me but you can't publish it there's no real physical proof so they just left it there and i had tried to do a documentary ended up i talked to him and let me write a book about it but you know if if people if you're looking for physical evidence and solid proof and they don't happen what is the what's the primary theory are there any primary theories of why they do this to cows why someone's doing this to cows you know you need to catch somebody and ask them i mean you know that's that's that's really look man it'll be weird that no one's been caught investigate the unexplained don't explain the uninvestigator that's what he always says and it's like i wouldn't think i would ever be interested in this but someone calls you and say they got a fresh cattle mutilation and they you know they're associated with the ufo phenomena sure i'm gonna look into it what i find more interesting is what's happening now with the the government study that started here at skinwalker ranch osap the one that was in the new york times and and where the information is going now these are new times things are starting to drop to the public and what what is starting to drop well the so the skinwalker story lack of physical evidence though there may be comes the attention of the defense intelligence agency this guy this scientist who sees it he goes to bigelow they go visit the property he looks around he has an experience he's not there 15 or 20 minutes and something appears inside a house that only he can see he doesn't say anything about it he goes back to washington meets with harry reid in a skiff in the capitol and two other u.s senators he presents them as the proposal for a study of ufos and related phenomena not just like atip looking at flying saucers that encounter us military but something more expensive they put out a contract bigelow bids on it creates an organization called bass again puts together a team of experts 50 or 60 employees and they start studying it they go around the world they interact with other governments they get their files they send out teams to hot spots to try to figure it out looking at whether there are connections between what we call flying saucers possible aliens and all these other different phenomena the program goes on for a couple of years and somebody yanks the yanks the funding and get this the reason that the dia suddenly became worried about all this weirdness that was being reported at skinwalker and elsewhere is because they thought it was demonic and they thought if this comes out that we're studying this weird phenomena a it's going to end up on the front page of the new york times which it did and b we might be invoking satan in here these were fundamentalist christians in the pentagon who pulled the money because they thought it was the devil i'm not making that up that's hilarious and the program it now continues they keep reporting that it's stopped it hasn't stopped the us military has been studying ufos since the beginning in every branch of our military they continue to do so and now every time they get caught in a lie so it is continuing tell them about it it is continuing so uh all stops money was taken away but the atip program which is what lou elizondo headed up that looked just at military ufo encounters continued pentagon says it was ended it did not it continued for a couple of years and after the new york times story comes out and creates this furor it got funding and it now has a structured organization and it is looking into cases where the u.s military sees these things and off the coast of the virginia they've been seeing this stuff i think fraver talked about it when he was here these beach balls with cubes inside of them and they were sitting there for hours off the coast right where our warplanes would go out for training exercises as if they wanted to be seen and it went on there were 70 or 80 witnesses during 2015-2016 pilots some of them were willing to talk about it some weren't it continues to this day now the program is on more solid footing now congress has been informed and they want to expand it and get more information we are told the new york times is working on another follow-up story to look into reports of what lazar said crash retrievals reverse engineering the existence of these meta materials bits and pieces that grand pods stashed in a barn somewhere whether it's roswell or other alleged crashes they're taking it seriously to figure out if there's something about these materials that we could not have have created so the bas program the asap program created a baseline of what we know about the state of our technology right now in different disciplines lyft and and propulsion things of that sort they commissioned 38 papers that would be the baseline for what the state of human knowledge was in 2009 and um and those papers were were published on a an internal department of defense uh website but they've never been made public six of them have now leaked out and i brought along two more for you that have not been made public um so these are these are like scientific reports based on the government study of ufos okay so they commissioned these papers only a handful have been released to the public george happens to have a couple more so you can you're gonna be the first person outside the program other than me to see it so what is it they're called a durd this is a defense intelligence reference document this paper is on meta materials so how you can engineer existing earth materials where you could duplicate what you're seeing up there none of these papers two of them actually mention aliens or ufos they're strictly on what the state of our knowledge is or was as of 2009 and they reference aliens and ufos only two of the papers do and how do they reference it well there's one of the papers that looks at the physical effects of people that come into contact with these unknown craft and it's sort of like the effects of radiation or microwaves there are physical effects hundreds of cases that have been investigated and that's what that paper looks at and that's already out there yeah the harm that is done to the body what they call close proximity to a uap which is a ufo there are known effects to the human body that are horrible and there was a study that focused on the witnesses they do know how close encounters like military people and then how it negatively impacted their body so each of these reports as he obtains them or as people find them they're very illuminating to what our government knows there was one that looked at how you would track a hypersonic vehicle traveling through space how difficult would it be now it doesn't say ufos but it's looking at things that really travel fast that are coming in from space into our atmosphere how would you track that now when that paper was written in 2009 we didn't have hypersonic weapons now the russians claim they've got them now it's very timely because we're in a rush to develop those things so that was one of the papers that i made public last year and i interviewed the engineering professor who wrote it he wasn't writing about ufos he was writing about the state of knowledge about hypersonic weapon systems back then it's a similar thing for meta materials that's what this this paper is is how would you engineer materials so you could travel through space that would have say you shoot it with the microwaves and it could develop certain special properties so just to put into context maybe because you know here's the deal um our government has now admitted there are ufos that that's the world we're living in their unidentified objects or craft that seem to outpace outmaneuver actively jam our radar systems even go over our military installations of high sensitivity their incursions all of this is now said it's a different world we're living in however the next thing that people are talking about now is well we also have materials we call them meta materials materials associated with ufo craft they might even go as far as to say we have whole materials craft from somewhere else so when they're saying we have materials associated from crafts are they saying that they have a crash yes who was a physicist who worked with bigelow on both nids and bass made a presentation in las vegas in uh june of 2018 where he says yeah we've got these materials and we're trying to figure out where they came from and how they were engineered because some of them appear to be multi-layered that are beyond what is known engineering capabilities of humans it looks like they would have had been made in say zero gravity of space and we don't have any manufacturing plants up there he implied that they came from crashes doesn't mean it's a ufo from zeta reticuli it's crashed from somewhere and we don't know whose it is so they're trying to figure out whether we can duplicate it or not and they got a bunch of samples and uh have you seen any of this no i haven't seen it bigelow and have you seen i've seen what people claim so the army now has these meta materials that were famously put in through actually the coast-to-coast show it was called arts parts i told you this last time i did i was able to obtain them briefly and have five scientists from new mexico that i knew material scientists physicists interrogate as they say the samples for numerous days i don't believe that i had access to the best equipment we didn't find anything extraordinary other people have so right now the army so but when you say you didn't find anything extraordinary did you find anything ordinary no they weren't ordinary these are the materials here that's the exact p one of the exact pieces that i had in my hands and and worked on with my team and i filmed it all but right now because of uh ttsa they've made a deal with the army and i think the army has these parts but i feel like we're missing that the big note here the big note is a few years ago ufos are still laughable military doesn't look after that turns out we have programs that do i'm suspecting and maybe you can talk more about it that the next piece of information is that there are reverse engineering programs which will then make everybody have to look at lazar's story a little bit differently once again if we admit that we are trying to reverse engineer either materials or actual craft from somewhere else intelligently designed metals or craft from somewhere else if there are crash retrieval programs for vehicles we don't know where they're from that's going to make me look at bob's story even more even more differently right but it's not a big if i mean if if they've it's an interesting time it is but i mean there's no indication that they're willing to discuss some retrieved craft right yeah i think that's a heavy lift so supposedly the new york times is working on that story i think it'd be pretty hard for them yeah they are they've been asking people about this stuff but i mean to get that into print to get it past their editors that's a hard deal just extraterrestrial material from the bottom of a wedge-shaped craft in the late 1940s made of 26 alternating layers one to four microns dark bismuth is that how you say that there's my bismuth and 100 to 200 microns of silver magnesium zinc alloy each of the six pieces received from the us army source were formed with a curvature that tapered so basically they're saying for there's no process that we know of that would create this alloy layered in that type of layer system i actually have a piece out about this isn't that kind of how they did samurai swords ooh that's cool yeah i'm not sure that this is alien of any kind but it is of unknown origin and um well jacques vale has like 20 as i said last jack fucking valet he's got like 27 samples of things associated with crash retrieval so if anybody has an archive of this stuff that's being scientifically interrogated right now and his studies do show isotopic ratios that are not from this earth so he's confident with his research my big point he's confident with his research of what well you'd have to talk you should talk with jacques but he's right but what is he confident of that you can say that he has that he has alloys that came from ufo crashes or run off has anybody independently analyzed those things yeah he's got a whole he says yeah whole teams of people well how come this isn't like public knowledge why isn't this in the new york times you got to get you got to get you got to talk with jacques whether you have him as a guest or not you guys should talk about how old is jacques now he's getting he's getting up there because he's in his yeah just um here's i would probably have to go to him right with a hazmat he's a strong dude where is he san francisco specifically no yeah what's the address yeah here's the thing that this program is ongoing it doesn't have to find aliens uh there are legitimate national security reasons to be looking at who these who's flying these craft these things are still being seen over our military installations and our our pentagon wants to know who's flying them and that's a perfectly legitimate inquiry regardless a little green men no one wants to say they're at the pentagon that we're investigating ufos and aliens uh they're just investigating where these things come from are they a threat can we duplicate that technology if the russians or the chinese get this stuff before we we do if they can do what the tic tac did it's a game changer so they want to know how whose it is and how we can duplicate it and that is a perfectly legitimate inquiry whether they're aliens or not what is the most compelling piece of physical evidence to you i don't know i mean i don't know that we have physical evidence other than if bob lazar's story is true we've got craft out there that we didn't make i mean the idea that we have stuff that we're reverse engineering to figure out how it was made that would be that would be the clincher i remember reading about jane allen heineck when he was uh running project blue book now he initially started it with the intent to debunk all of these stories and come up with some sort of uh rational explanation that you could pass off the general public swamp gas as time went on he became a believer and i thought that was really fascinating and then after project blue book closed he was very open and public about it i'll give you one of his cases from project blue book it's april 18 1962. the original explanation is it's a meteor it comes into a atmosphere over cuba it goes all the way up the east coast of the u.s when it gets to new york it turns left it takes a left turn goes all the way across the united states at a couple of places it slows down it's picked up on radar jets are chased after it they can't catch it it keeps on going it gets to utah there's a little town called eureka and it lands lands in utah knocks out the power to the whole town then it takes off again that's a heck of a meteor it gets over near mesquite nevada and explodes and this thing the explosion was seen for hundreds of miles i saw it in las vegas and reno i had interviewed a team that went out there to look for pieces they thought it might have been an airplane that exploded supposedly never found it a meteor that travels takes a left turn slows down lands takes off again that's like no meteor i ever heard of but jl and hynix team from blue book in their files that's how they explained it away the the best evidence for me because look i'm just curious about this this is just one of those places where all the answers aren't there i want to know man so the the best evidence for me because i asked that same question to everybody it's it's the fact that we're being lied to that alone we can prove that we can prove that our government intelligence agencies have actively partake in lying to us about the ufo subject that there are craft of unknown origin that fly with impunity in our airspace globally and throughout history and so the fact that they are lying and have been lying that makes me i'm like why are you lying to me then i want to find out so for me that's the greatest evidence that there's scientific studies on this stuff and everybody's hushed the fuck hush about it why is it like north korea had leapfrogged us 50 years ago so all of a sudden you know that's our enemy i mean who is operating this craft that comes in from outer space drops down to sea level docks like the tic tac was docking with a uso an underwater craft and it outpaces our military jets you've got to be dead to not be curious about this so that's the greatest evidence to me is the fact where we've been lied to is an american population and we're just starting to peel back layers that this shit is real and our military's worried about it well if we haven't been lied to at the very least they haven't felt it well if they don't have real evidence other than this stuff that we're discussing if this is all they have i don't know what they would tell the general public totally also part of the problem yes what do you say you know as i said this is an amazing time we're getting closer to knowing what the government knows but that doesn't mean we'd have an answer right i don't think they know either that was always my take on it was like why would they talk to the government like if you came from another planet and you were looking at us as weird territorial chimps with nuclear weapons what would you why would you pick one group and then talk to them as opposed to just the general public why would you elected leaders would they really be important to you like it doesn't make any sense at all yeah i never really bought into the stories that there had been a formal meetings or anything i think the government is as clueless as the rest of us they have more information because they have the sensors to collect it they have a giant apparatus sensors that detect things coming in and out of space and radar somewhere there's a giant pile of information that we haven't been able to see but it doesn't mean that it answers the question this this thing has been with human humans throughout history and it's always just tantalizingly out of reach you know used to be golden shields and that it'd be swords and flaming chariots and now it's flying saucers and it looks like technology that maybe we could someday achieve but it's always out of reach and i think it will remain out of reach well there's one thing that bob talked about from some of the the documents that he had been given when he was working at s4 was that they had actually taken a part in engineering human beings and that is to me like if you if you wanted to say like what what's what's the thing that's going to get people to roll their eyes the most well you would say well that the aliens came down here and they they they got a hold of the lower hominids and they accelerated the evolutionary process and they created human beings people a lot of people go get the fuck out of here that's crazy but if you look at people one of the weird things about people is how much we vary we're so different like not like any other animal like other than dogs and dogs are the way they are because we've fucked with them because we've manipulated them we are the dogs of the rest of the world you know if you really think about it we're so different than every other primate there's not even anything close to us and i know there were some other human species you know was the how do you say it to denovians there's neanderthals homo floriensis which was those little hobbit people that have been a bunch of other humanoids but nothing that came close to what we are and if you look at ancient uh ancient primates and us the leap between them and us is so quick the doubling of the human brain size over a period of two million years is just bonkers like they don't know why they don't know what happened they have no idea but if if that really is what happened if they said listen they're gonna get there but we can help like would you let's just jump in because these things like look chimps are still chimps right they're still murdering each other they're still tearing monkeys apart and eating them alive they're still doing the same things they've been doing for thousands and thousands of years whereas we're living in condominiums and watching cable you know it's like whatever has happened to humans has happened so the the the advancement is so unique it's so different than any other animal if we really have been visited since the beginning of time since history if all those biblical stories and all the stories from the bhagavad-gita and all these ancient texts that do talk about vimanas and flying crafts and beings that come down from upon high if all that really is aliens intervening with the the biological evolution of human beings how fucking weird are we you know i mean i mean if you think about how weird we are period i mean maybe that would kind of explain it that we're some stupid science experiment well you know people say i want disclosure i want to know we're ready we can handle it are you sure you can't handle the truth i mean are you sure you can handle it because we don't know exactly what it is that can be disclosed but what if it turns out that we're an agricultural product you know that we are being harvested for something or we're being allowed to to breed and kind of a science experiment let's see where this goes and then when it's time to end the experiment i mean i'm not sure people can handle it look at how they've handled covet well if you would think about if if aliens coming down and interfering with weapon systems and interfering with nuclear launch codes and things along those lines like if you think about the uptick in alien sightings and activity post hiroshima and nagasaki that would kind of make sense like all right these fucking dickheads they've gotten to a point where they can do some really crazy shit and they literally might ruin this whole thing they figured out how to light the match like if you if you take this uh primate this animal and you embed it with the superior or at least more uh evolutionary advanced genetics then you manipulate it to a point where you make it weaker but smarter far more curious and obsessed with innovation let me just leave it there well it's just a matter of time like how much is that time is it a thousand years is it ten thousand years over time they're going to figure out some crazy shit because they're just going to keep working together like they do and then boom bombs go off and like all right we got a signal these crazy fucks have figured out how to split the atom we got to get down there and and and keep a closer eye on these people i'm open to that possibility of that being the case i mean it's it's weird it's the craziest idea no there's crazier ones being put out today just like the big bang is the craziest idea and we all agree on that that's the craziest thing the whole universe came out of nothing right smaller than the head of a pin instantaneously creates everything you see in the night sky okay the technology that shows up that may be reverse engineered or craft or bits and pieces you know i sometimes equate it with let's throw us we're aliens let's throw a cell phone into a chimpanzee cage here have at it see how you do for a while i don't know that we're ever going to figure this stuff out well more than that it would be like let's let's take a chimpanzee and let's manipulate its brain and leave them with a bunch of tools you know give it give it some things and see what it comes up with and then come back and try again i mean maybe neanderthal was like well you know they're not going to get any further past this like this this project we need to scrap it start with something new i don't think that's not look we do weird shit to animals i mean we study them we you know i was just talking to a friend of mine about zoos about how bummed out i was when i went to this wolf sanctuary because everybody's like oh it's amazing you get to see these wolves that they've rescued i got there i saw a bunch of castrated wolves that were living in prison i didn't think it was cool at all it freaked me out i i got really depressed i i think what you look at what we're willing to do to chimps i mean i remember going to um i i forget maybe it was denver i forget where it was the zoo but there was a zoo where there was this monkey that was in a cage that was screaming just screaming like he was going crazy it was a small cage and people were walking around he's like just and i was like he's probably going mad this is not how a monkey's supposed to live they're supposed to be in the jungle in the wild you know harvesting food and living with other monkeys they're not supposed to be alone in a cage where these other weird primates walk by and stare at it it just overwhelms all of its defense systems and survival systems we're willing to do that to things that we know or at least slightly intelligent like what would be willing to do weirder more advanced experiments to primates to create us and how do you tell a population if you do study ufos as the government you find out okay shit there are craft and they're coming in they're probably studying us like how do you fucking tell people that like how are people gonna react and the way that it's so compartmentalized that's been the best proof to me as well if i've talked to somebody who's worked on a project and they're like all i saw was a super capacitor in 1974 and i know this was not something we made he was told nothing else he just saw a technology that was more efficient than anything he had ever seen so the idea that people are funneling this information whoever is funneling it and protecting this information as we see how osap and atip didn't get special access permission that's a special type of program they knew about crash retrieval programs so they said we want to compare notes and information with other ufo projects they were denied access yeah the door was slammed in their face when they tried to ask that senator reid it was senate majority leader had asked for permission to create it as an sap special access program so they could get access to other goodies and they said no other retrieval programs material programs stuff that bob has talked about so just the fact that it's it's so hidden even within its own mechanism that they won't allow this scientific team to work on this project it tells me as robbie says something's up i mean something's up well that was one of the weirder things about bob's description of areas4 about how compartmentalized everything was about you know one group worked on metallurgy the other group worked on propulsion and they didn't share information it pissed him off so bad man well it was what the way he described best is that scientific research the way you progress is they everybody works together and it doesn't happen in a vacuum so they were literally trying to do scientific research without the scientific method they were trying to withhold information from them and only get them to concentrate on one aspect of this project without the whole group coming together and getting some sort of a comprehensive understanding of what these things are bob said he wasn't the most qualified person to do the job either that freaked him out and he didn't have the right materials even well i think they probably if let's assume they are alien spacecraft they probably knew that no one was qualified they probably knew that we did we just really have no idea especially if they had been working on these things for decades like bob assumed they had been they probably had gone through the best scientists that they could and they realized look no one has any idea let's get this out of the box weirdo who puts jet engines and hondas let's get some some straight look there's a lot of very strange people out there that are incredibly intelligent that you know might not fit into your standard educational you know bundle or category of research scientist or whatever you might might just be a weirdo who likes to shoot guns and make hydrogen-powered corvettes maybe that's the kind of guy that's going to see something that maybe other folks haven't seen yet i think that's entirely possible it's also possible that they used him to discredit the idea of crash retrievals forever you know let's bring this guy in show him some stuff let him spout it out then we'll we'll cut his legs off yeah but the problem is the reason why he spouted it out was you know it was so clear that they had nothing to do with that it was his wife having an affair and he had top secret clearance because he has top secret clearance they're monitoring all of his phone calls they find out that the wife is banging her flight instructor and so they say liz this guy's going to be unstable we can't have him work there anymore they suspend his working privileges and he freaks out and then he takes people to see the crowd the launch sites he takes a look they do this at a certain time period every week i'm going to take you down there he takes his friends down there they get busted they get arrested it's just too the the actual verifiable facts of his being caught the whole phone call thing the fact that his wife was having the affair there's no way they're playing that kind of 4d chess this is a fucking government they're too goofy if i found out that bob lazar was lying to the world i would be the first person to tell you there's no reason i wouldn't that was the whole reason i got interested that's why i contacted george back in the day i wanted to know if he was fucking making it up with bob and i i'll attest to you for whatever you value my opinion at i have been with bob in his life met everybody his family the closer you get to his inner circle the more you understand that he's telling the truth and never once have i found something where i'm like you're a fucking liar never once yeah he's he it's a weird thing like the only thing that people kept pointing to in the podcast was that he was getting migraines but dude he had migraines he had migraines earlier today i mean it wasn't any you could tell he would stop and he he would wince and you know he just didn't like the idea that he was going to do this thing that he knew that millions and millions of people are going to see him talk about this for hours and hours and he knew it was all going to come back up again all the investigation all the people fucking with them all the attention that he had avoided another important point is this is not a guy who profited off of this story no this guy told this story for 31 years and didn't profit off of it the migraine might have been the mcdonald's his wife was furious at me because when i brought him over i was like just get some in your stomach man again so i think it was bad food but he could have been that and the pressure but the pressure the pressure was deep because you know he didn't know you he didn't know if you know you're just gonna you know start asking him about um you know his wife cheating on him and you know it's like it's stressful man oh listen i get it man i mean that was one of the good reasons uh why we had dinner the night before with my buddy andrew schultz and i brought andrew along too because he's a really smart guy and i said just just please just pay attention to this motherfucker tell me what you say because if you see some bullshit you see some weirdness let me know what do you say nothing he said i don't know because that guy's telling the truth that is fucking crazy you know because andrew is a comic but a really good one and a really smart guy yeah so his i just wanted you know again outside the box have some guy who's not obsessed with ufos at all have him come and you know and andrew asked a bunch of questions andy was at the bar before when bob and i arrived we go up to the bar i didn't know who andrew was right and then joe walks in hey andrew and he had been sitting right next to it so joe was putting spies out that was a good move but you know that it's so frustrating it's it's fun and i think i would have stopped but george been doing this 30 years it's like you always get one step forward and look we all want to know if this stuff is true but the weight of the evidence is so heavy now with the government programs and everything that you've been involved with it's just an exciting time and i think i learned more in in this last year than all the time before and i think that that's going to continue i don't think we're all of a sudden going to say okay this doesn't matter anymore if this is real yeah i'm not counting on any answers anytime soon we may know more about what the government knows but that's not the ultimate answer i mean what if it turns out these are not aliens they live here there's some other intelligence that we can't see they can reach in like rats in a in a cage and pull us out once in a while or do experiments to us and it's their planet and we're living in this tiny slice of reality and don't realize what's going on around us there's a ufo uh ufo there's a ufc fighter a woman named angela hill she's a badass and her grandfather is barney hill oh shit oh shit i didn't know until after the podcast her and i did a podcast together just talking about her fighting career and then at the end of it she goes oh there's one thing i forgot to bring up this is like after the show's over i'm like what how did you forget to bring that up that is so crazy her grandfather is one of the most important characters in the history of ufo abduction betty and barney hill who are a couple in new hampshire yes maine or new hampshire new hampshire and they get abducted and through hypnotic regression tell this crazy story of the lost time their car stops these this ufo shows up and then they have this classic abduction story that we have heard time and time again and i had this conversation with someone where they were saying do you believe in these ufo abductions and i said i don't i don't believe in them but i don't not believe in them either i don't i i just keep a blank slate with this because he and he their take was like wouldn't you think more people would talk about it more thing i'll go why would they do it that often i go how many unique occurrences would have to take place before it would be common knowledge how many times would people have to be abducted before you would believe and what would they get out of these abductions and look we we know what we're willing to do with chimpanzees or gorillas or any other primate orangutans that we find in the wild they run experiments on them they capture them they do things to them all the time why wouldn't something that's infinitely more intelligent than us abduct to folks that are driving somewhere betty and barney hill why wouldn't they you know why wouldn't they experiment on them there they are right there these are people that don't want attention i mean it's a interracial couple back in the was it 50s or 60s it was probably in a lot of part i mean it wasn't until i found out until 1966 or 68 like while i was alive that interracial couples were allowed to marry in the entire country so betty and barney hill it's kind of funny when i'm looking at barney he does kind of look like angela oh you see the genetics i don't know maybe i'm just looking in the unsolved mysteries one on abductions the new unsolved mysteries reboot no oh dude great case the other case that fascinates me besides this one but that one surely fascinates me because it's the original but travis walter yeah yes yeah that's a weird one man it's a it's a solid one too i mean i've met travis a few times and uh his story like lazar's does not change there are additional witnesses what he went through is comparable to bob i mean he was called a liar and basically i think his friends were accused of murdering him and that's a solid case i mean it's a it's a really weird one too another great case so i met two of the girls um salma and liesel and remember that school where like 80 kids or something would get some parts wrong 80 kids saw these craft come down and the bbc came the next day with dr john mack head of harvard psychiatry and he's the one who wrote that book abduction yeah i read this is what got him like so these kids see this craft come down south africa and uh at the aerial school and i actually got to spend a weekend with two of the primary witnesses one that was three feet away from she's telling me there was a being there when you hear what happened to them now the bbc did film the next day you did have dr john mack going and and testing all the kids and trying to see consensus what they saw but when i met these two women later in life i i can't dismiss what they're telling me it's like you telling me you went to the grocery store why am i going to doubt you man that's how matter of fact they are about it they don't know what they saw but they know they know exactly what they saw they just don't know the implications of it well john mack experienced a lot of blow back from that book oh you know you're talking about a guy who's uh was he employed at harvard yeah at the time he's head of hard psychiatry yeah and so he writes this book about ufo abductions and um i actually found out but from my friend maura who worked with me on news radio with dave foley she actually was reading the book she's like this is right up your alley she goes it's so crazy like i i didn't know what to think somebody recommended it but along the way she's like these stories are so similar it's crazy like there's all these different people that don't know each other from all over the world that have really similar stories like if this thing is happening again how would anyone know and how many times would they have to do it and why would it be common knowledge like if if they have the ability to come here from another galaxy or another solar system and they can penetrate our defenses and hover over a place and abduct someone and run experiments on them and put them back there with some sort of a distorted memory which seems to be part of the story and many of them that their memory is at least partially wiped and they come back very confused like how many of those would take place before we would all know about it i mean you they wouldn't have to do it that often there's 300 million people and they do it once a week who the fuck is going to know well again how are you going to hear about it what's the what's proof right what is the level of proof right for those cases this uh phenomena is elusive right it wants to show us glimpses of itself and glimpses of other realities but it doesn't want us to be able to prove it it's as if it's trying to tell us it's like a learning curve you know that reality isn't what it used to be that it's way more complicated than you might think it is that's sort of like what we got out of the ranch is that it's putting all these different weird phenomena together when you can't really prove any of them it's it's trying to tell you something so what can you learn from what's your take on whitley streiber it's it's a mix i think he's a brilliant guy and i i think he did have some experiences i don't know that the experience is continued you know you get mixed signals from him the fact that he is a great novelist a horror novelist complicates it complicates it he thinks about this stuff on a different level you know it used to be we all thought it saw that alien on the cover of his book communion and and figured it was a space alien from some other planet and he's on a whole different level about what they might be now what does he think they are like in essence gods i mean jacques valet had said if you can manipulate space-time if you can create your own gravity like the craft that bob was talking about you could be from other planets other solar systems other times you could be time travelers you could be from other dimensions or all of the above like dr john mack had suggested that abductions and these strange experiences in connection with them suggest that we're part of a galactic neighborhood a cosmic neighborhood multi-dimensional reality that we haven't got our heads around yet and that it's important for our ultimate survival that we figure it out george i just you know george has been remember he is a journalist that broke mob stories corruption stories political corruption i mean just last year i mean this guy has been doing this for 30 something years ufos has defined him because the world at large has defined him by the ufos that's because of the stigma now of course he's made lots of headway and done all he does the coast show like our bell but what he's doing now is kind of cool after 30 years of studying this and filming with people on news you get to drop 12 seconds one minute in a news report he has an akashic record of everybody ever involved with claims about this stuff throughout the last 30 years and he's been dumping it all online so all of his collective wisdom over the years of what could this fucking be he is now starting to release those archives and so this is for me it's a very exciting time because like the lazar interviews there's so much more out there now that he had under his station where do you keep that george it's called mysterywire.com it's a i work for klaus i'm still part of the i team but since the beginning of the year i'm focusing most of our attention on that producing new content but all this stuff that i've stashed at home and elsewhere is going up on there dr john mack will be on there eventually because i got to interview him too while he's still alive um and he was hit by a car right what is this jamie what is that new area 51 photographs taken by private pilots oh that was pretty cool yeah they flew over papoose like you know it's like you're allowed to do that no you can you can get clearance to get by and have a really good camera but here's what's so funny it's like people that aren't convinced will never be convinced they said oh there's new photos of papoose lake and we don't see an installation and i'm like oh you don't see an installation that was built to not be seen from the air okay i mean it's if people don't want to you know follow this shit or understand it they're always going to see whatever they want to see are you following me yeah okay i was in the vacuum they're very looking at me i was like well you're having an argument with someone who's not there oh okay you know you're like arguing so you're not seeing it yeah no one's here yeah my point is it's just i'm i can't bang my head against the wall because i don't know what the real truth is george is it was it a struggle to talk about uh ufos and yet maintain a serious career as an investigative journalist very much so uh you know i had the support of my news director and the station at the time and you know they were encouraged by the reaction from our audience it was it was big and then it expanded and went all over the world but i think they worried that i was going too far down the rabbit hole so i had to be careful i mean for me it is not my religion i'm not chasing this because i've got a hole in my heart where god should be it's a story it's always been a story and so i try to be careful and not commit to a position it's space aliens it's interdimensionals i'm following what evidence there is i'm listening to the witness testimony and trying to figure it out and and over the years you know i have been all over the world to chase this down in the end a lot of the answers of the best information was right in las vegas because of bigelow and the organizations that he founded all that expertise came right into my backyard and then harry reid being the sponsor to uh the program that became atip i mean uh i've been fortunate to be a fly on the wall and and to gain their trust and it it's tricky you know it's tricky because so many people find this to be crazy and ridiculous and whenever i do a story un not related to ufos it's about some crooked politician or cops or something like that and people are mad at me which happens often they bring up ufos you know that's the ufo guy how seriously can it be yeah but but i've had the support of my employer and i'm thankful for that and uh you know i get to be a little more creative on coast to coast because it's a four-hour show and and you can let people go i don't have to be judgmental about it when i'm reporting as a regular news story i have to be more careful about what i include in it but yeah we're putting all that stuff up and uh it's been a fun ride and there's a lot of times i just want to walk away from it like you i get disgusted by it yeah have you have you noticed in your world the world of investigative journalism that attitudes and opinions have changed about ufos very much so i think you know i'll go back to the new york times story that changed so much so i had known that stuff and when i found out they were going to do it i had known about the the program that was underway i said hey why don't i get to do this because uh i've known about all this time i've kept quiet about it because that was my agreement i'm going to do this story they said no this is bigelow senator reid and tom delong had asked me don't do that if you do it the new york times said they'll back out and so i sort of i don't want to say took one for the team but i realized i'm not the new york times they were gently letting me know i'm the ufo reporter if i do it nobody's going to pay attention to it if the new york times does it then everybody does pay attention to it and they did they did that story then the washington post and politico all the new networks did stories of press all over the world it is now acceptable for reporters to dig into it you have to be careful there are still liars and scammers out there who will mislead you but there is information that can be pursued by reporters and and i think that's made all the difference it made congress more comfortable with exploring it and our world is different from um than it was two and a half years ago yeah i think the the people that were in control of this stuff also in the 60s and 70s they're not around anymore so you're dealing with now people that are in government involved in the military that grew up in the age of the internet and they have a different perspective perspective about these subjects of the free flow of information they see everything is there why is this why is anything i think younger people just have a different perception about ufos in general i mean i i think that you're you're not dealing with the post 1947 people that were uh you know talking about it back in the day where they and also the attitude of the way the military and the government interface with the public i mean that they they could come up with the most ridiculous deception like the roswell case is one of my favorite ones i mean i used to have a bit about it but how crazy it is that they say and they printed in the paper we've recovered a down saucer and then the next day is a weather balloon you don't know the difference between a spacecraft from another dimension or another planet or a weather balloon that was made in ohio well the same question now dave fravor doesn't know the difference between a tic tac this weird craft and a seagull or something you know he won't engage those insane you know arguments he just won't do it he's a fighter pie doesn't give a fuck well it's uh the other thing that he was talking about that we didn't really get to is that that thing not only was recognizing that he was there but it was jamming it was doing some sort of active jam an act of war this is the other paper i i wanted to tell you about it it does mention aliens so it's a it's it is a recalculation of am i in trouble for having no no they're not classified it says unclassified it just hasn't been released out of this room right now it just recalculates how likely it is there are alien civilizations in our solar system or likely so it's uh about the fermi paradox it's certainly taking place the drake equation so they've done this years ago about they tried to figure out how many planets are out there how many are uninhabited this is a reworking of the calculations and again i can't read it intelligence reference document and introduction to the statistical drake equation so this is something that they they created for the defense department yeah so they could get an understanding yeah what the baseline of our information is about all those different topics i told you about and then this one is how likely is it that we have galactic neighbors and how close might they be yeah num the key question how far are they it comes to an answer it's like 30 pages into that but you're the first person outside the program wow to see it you better address it sure this is okay yeah it feels like i'm gonna get visited that's um yeah well how far do they think they are i hope they dig it up for you and again i'm one of the reasons i become a journalist is so i don't have to do math so um that's one of the cool things now that's happening is um because of the new york times article and and really because you know you had bob on and come out of favor people are talking about this and the zeitgeist i've had more people serious people come forward to me in the last year of my life than ever before and it includes soccer moms and just people that just post the documentary yes ever since the lazar documentary you know and and people found out that i kept my word to fragrant didn't tell his story new york times told it i kept all that you know people started to trust me with hey we can keep his mouth shut if he needs to people have come forward to me and drove since the lazar movie and of course it's like soccer moms and people that just say i don't want to be known i just want somebody to hear this because my husband would think i'm crazy let me just tell you what happened to me and i'm out of your life and what are they telling you i mean joe it's um everything you can imagine from seeing craft that are right there right in front of them to you know abduction stories which i don't get into because it's too crazy for me but they're reporting sightings encounters all ufo stuff that's why they call me they don't call me for other stuff right but also very serious people people that have worked or do work within our military and say i had an encounter i there was an incursion i know george has dealt with this for 30 years it's just it's just new for me that the the amount of people coming forward to me and telling me their stories and giving me documents and stuff like that i got to be careful because a lot of it's got to be bullshit right but a good handful of it is power a lot of it is you know it's um like bait they're really discredited yeah um do you think is that what you think or do you think it's just crazy people it's crazy people and some of it might be more organized than that at the reach of your show joe since when bob was on there i know what what happened to jeremy as a result of it i get a little bit of the blow back because people are interested in the topic but it's amazing how uh much of an impact it's had to kindle people's interests not only in that story but in others on the general topic by the way this paper says with a 75 probability the nearest extraterrestrial civilization is located in between 1361 and 3 979 light years from us so there there you go wow and the way they travel that ain't shit no that's so and that's lunchtime and that's such the important part of it remember we're talking about non-reactionary propulsion systems everybody like 10 years ago everybody's like okay the universe is vast there's probably an intelligent life forms out in the soul in in the solar systems in the universe but they ain't coming here right but then you look at what bob said and how gravity wave amplification would and then you look at the testimony of like commander favor and how those craft move you see how the gimbal moves and then you start thinking well distance doesn't matter anymore that's just us saying physicists we're right well hold on physics has changed as our understanding has changed so now we're looking at a propulsion system where distance doesn't matter man that brings us all much fucking closer together if any of this is true yeah if any of this is true this i mean there was a lot of naysayers back in the day that were quote unquote ufo experts that had more traditional ideas of how they traveled here like stanton friedman he had his hot potato theory that they just did it in short bursts like very fast travel and short bursts so you could tolerate but if they and he didn't believe in bob lazar too but i always felt like there was some weirdness there like ufo guys and researchers are so used to people being full of shit that everyone but them is full of shit right and that's what i felt like with stanton when stanton would discredit bob's uh education pass and all these different things i'd be like yeah but i don't know i don't think you know him i don't think you talk to him i don't think you get in the room i think like if we just just empty out empty out all your predisposed notions of who the guy is and look at it what if he's telling the truth like what if he's telling the truth does that place actually exist area s4 yes does he have some weird knowledge of it yes did he really work at los alamos lab yes did people who worked there remember him yes does he know how to navigate the building from the inside yes was there a fucking article in the newspaper where he built a fucking jet car and it said he was a physicist at los alamos lab yes these things are piling up stanton i wish you were alive i wish you were alive because he was a really smart guy who was also obsessed with ufos but again these ufo experts all believe that everyone else is full of shit i had a 20-year dialogue with stan friedman and i respect the hell out of him because he really plodded away and really plowed the ground on the topic in general and tried to make it respectable but he had a blind spot about bob we had multiple face-to-face conversations and exchanged letters over the years did you ever say what if he was telling the truth yeah i have said that to him and he can't get behind beyond the college degree stuff in that's the stopping point for him and did you bring up like i'm sure bob told you the same story he told me about working at los alamos lab and his education at mit i did not tell him that story but it would not have mattered because stan didn't hear any of that stuff all the things about how does he go out and know it's going to fly on wednesday night and take friends out there three weeks in a row and then record it on video right doesn't want to hear that one just didn't hear it why not he'd already made up his mind that's not good that's not scientific and i can understand like uh my emails and correspondences and texts are a dump truck for conspiracy like every everybody thinks i'm some fucking believer and they can just hit me with like fucking 5g covid stuff and i'm like jesus christ so it's people that actually know me my friends and george too we're like the person that's hardest to convince that your story has validity we ask for documents from military background we we vet people right he vetted lazar i vetted lazar it's not like we're sitting here oh we want this to be true tell us your story but do you understand that's why the skinwalker ranch thing does nothing for me i understand right yeah i ain't totally interested yeah i just i don't i don't see anything there yeah i see uh a dead cow yeah there were phd scientists on that ranch for 20 years some part of the time working for the us government trying to figure it out they would have experiences they can't document them they realize that nobody's going to believe it it was very frustrating but they tried to look for a bigger picture of what it was trying to teach them why why is these performances and that's how they consider them like performances they're not just ufos popping in here just because it's a portal or something they were showing glimpses of themselves for a reason because if they didn't want us to see them we wouldn't see them it's like the tic tac there's the tic tac sitting around it's it's been there for a couple of weeks zipping in and out we can't quite get a radar bearing on it and it's sitting there waiting for fraber to come along and then it kind of reacts oh is there somebody else here and it zips away you know it knew that we were there given its capabilities it wanted to be seen but why that's the difficult thing is is can you accept so if this ufo thing is real and there are these intelligent craft and stuff can we accept that it is aware of us that it is aware that we have cell phones that it is aware that we want to monitor it and if it's highly advanced wherever it's from i don't care if it's fucking aliens or again north korea i don't care who it is right but if they're that advanced if this technology if there's any weight to it which there is then we have to know that they are aware of us looking at them and that they can work from a technologically more advanced standpoint right i mean i have to accept that skinwalker all that it was hard for me when i when i started doing the film and working with george on it it's hard for me where's the concrete evidence i see command of favor that's concrete errors the documents that's what he first showed me documents documents great that's hard evidence so i know and it's hard to accept some of that but i'm not going to exclude it like i didn't exclude bob i want to find out the truth i'm not going to exclude it investigate the unknown don't no so the you know there might be some scary explanations ultimately that they live here that they can see us and read our thoughts and we're in the shower and we're sleeping and they're watching and they manipulate us on a micro and macro scale that it's their planet not ours that we're an agricultural product that's scary the other thing that's scary is what if we are totally alone you know that they're we're the only life in the in anywhere that this the only inhabited planet some people believe that i i don't but that's pretty scary too because you look at how we take care of ourselves and it's not very well you know yeah um it's the whole subject is such a weird one because you spend a lot of time on it and you start thinking am i just wasting my precious energy here on nonsense like but then you hear like one of the things that bob told me that was so strange was uh when we were doing the podcast he was saying that they think that one of them was really old it was from an archaeological dig and i was like well why are they leaving spacecrafts around are they leaving spacecrafts around so like go ahead let them figure this shit out yes yes you think that i think so like i said throw in the cell phone into the monkey cage here help yourself knock yourself out and we see these displays you know if they didn't want us to see them we wouldn't they have stealth capability we can see them right there and not see them on radar we can see them on radar but they're invisible you know they you can only see them sometimes through through thermal so as our military devices get better at detection ufo sightings are going up and it's because we now can look at them purely through thermal heat signature compared to just you know flying but some of them don't display a thermal heat signature absolutely do some of them do and some of them don't do they they display different forms of propulsion i don't know don't know we'd have to it seems extremely varied you know is that there's anything you can imagine and more this cop just called me a month ago and he's not a ufo guy anything and he had an encounter he claims that it was so extraordinarily strange like non-aerodynamic something impossible he saw something impossible they come in all shapes and forms it's just that as we look more we're seeing more i think because our technology is increasing and maybe because our awareness also we're starting to be more curious our government and our scientists i think the scientific community should engage this topic you have stuff to study now michio kaku famously recently said the burden of evidence about these not being extraterrestrial craft is now on the scientific community because there's such a weight of evidence now that there are craft our government's working on it the russians are working on it and the chinese are working on it those that we know of for sure that's been told to me directly senator reid had said that was one of the reasons he started the program because he's had indications that those other governments are trying to figure out the same stuff that we're figuring out and if some of us can master that technology the russians get it the chinese get it before we do it's it's we're in trouble or the aliens come down and smack everybody around so what do you what do you what do you think man after kind of you know doing three rounds on the ufo stuff you know um what do you think's up man i don't that's the problem i don't i don't i just sit back and i wait you know i'm i'm i i think when you look at fravor's favors what what fravor saw clearly there there's evidence there's there's not just evidence that it was jamming tracking there's them trying to figure out what it is there's the incredible rate of travel where it can go from 60 000 feet to above the surface in like literally a second and they don't even know how fast it really went because it takes a second for the radar to to register that's that alone is just bonkers like what is that like what is that and how do you dismiss that and no sonic booms as an example so that would a trans medium craft is one that goes through space air or c and it doesn't have the same displacement as you'd normally have that would be a gravity-propelled craft no sonic booms no splashes of water um yeah so it's i so i'm just curious where you know before you were you've been back and forth on the topic so how's george so if i get so fed up with it sometimes i'm never going to learn anything everybody's fucking crazy well there's just so many people out there that have an interest in discussing it too when they do these lectures they tour and they do these ufo conferences and they just get together with other bullshit artists and they make a living it does happen that's a part of the problem so part of the problem is that there's there's money to be made in this and you realize that when you interview these so-called experts when you sit down and talk to them a lot of them are just they're knuckleheads and they don't respond very well to scrutiny luckily he's a journalist journalist with a day job and you know i'm also i'm just a filmmaker not just a ufo researcher you know you're kind of obsessed let's be honest i'm going to be completely honest i am i'm i'm how do you not be how do you not be i mean it's it's the one of the most compelling subjects that the human race has ever known are we alone and if we're not alone is is something as advanced to us as we are to ants you know and and that is obviously there's if if you follow the string of evolution things become more and more complex and in the case of primates they become more and more intelligent more and more capable of manipulating their environment so if we extrapolate and we go a thousand years from now or we take ourselves to a totally different environment where you don't have the same sort of tooth and claw competition as you have here on earth i mean maybe they exist in some sort of a planet with a completely different ecosphere a completely different uh series of of metals and and and different propulsion systems get invented first long before fire i mean maybe they're just messing with some stuff that's just very different than us maybe they live in a more stable environment where they don't have to worry about asteroidal impacts and they've had a steady chain of evolution that's gone on for millions of years i mean we don't we really don't know just think about a civilization that's so much as a hundred years older than us right especially now i think how far we've come in 50 years i mean the stuff that 50 years ago a cell phone might be considered witchcraft you know and and the the rate of change is exponential something 100 years or a thousand years older than us could have technology that's basically magic and a million years in terms of biological life on earth is really nothing it's nothing we haven't even been alive for a million years humans haven't been human for a million years so just think what goes on a million years from now the other thing that always trips me out is the archetypal alien when you look at it it's like if you took cavemen or or you go back to chimps and cavemen and then humans you're seeing this pattern of the heads are getting bigger the muscles are getting smaller the body's getting less hairy well if you keep going what do you get you get an even bigger head and muscles that are almost non-existent these like like stick bodies but they still maintain that sort of iconic primate shape they're kind of primate-like where they walk on two legs they have two arms they vary the amount of digits they have on their fingers they have heads that have predators eyes because the eyes face forward like ours like are we looking at what always happens to life i mean if if life exists the way it exists here and that it always gets to some point where some really intelligent species starts to manipulate its environment and then it starts to look like that where they develop technology where they don't need brute force anymore so their bodies slowly but surely shrink and and become something that's just not reliant on a muscle strength but rather on telekinetic ability the ability to express themselves without words and thoughts i mean that's one of the things that elon said when he was talking about his neural link which is you know i mean if you want if there's a fucking alien on earth it's that guy right there and he's talking about putting some sort of a device into people's skulls where wires will go to different parts of your brain and you'll be able to greatly improve your ability to access information it will increase your bandwidth of information substantially and in his words you'll be able to talk without using words now when you look at aliens the iconic alien has this slit for a mouth very little nose giant eyes and an enormous head well if we allow ourselves to become some hybrid or some symbiotic computer cyborg type thing isn't that what we're gonna look like aren't we gonna let me maybe those things have weird skin because we realize like you know regular skin kind of sucks it gets zits you get cancer you know it's it's penetrable they've already figured out a way to make some sort of a hybrid of spider silk and human skin that would be bulletproof i mean this is something that they've they've done research on in a lab i mean whether or not it actually gets to a human body you know who knows but when you look at those things when you think of that iconic alien shape it does remind us in in or it reminds us of the process of evolution it looks like what we could be like it causes a lot of people to wonder if they are time travelers yeah that's us in the future coming back to see when we screwed up planet earth or something like that we could be or it just could be their their their life that's gone further than where we are and they know the process and that's how they were able to confidently manipulate our genetics they're like well they're going to get there anyway let's just step in and jack up the process maybe we don't have a million years maybe because of where we live in terms of our galaxy i mean this is a legitimate shooting gallery there's like some stupid number like 900 000 near earth objects that could end us you know they're injecting miracle grow big hurts yeah the new crops come right yeah maybe they're looking at this and like hey we got to give these people steroids like they're not growing quick enough like let's get in there and and get it so that they can legitimately get to a point before they get hit and we've been hit many times while we're you know going through this process but get to a point where we can accelerate their their evolution i mean i don't know i mean it sounds crazy but so do we bullets sound crazy you know cars sound crazy electric cars sound crazier and it's okay to talk about crazy things right i mean we can theorize for sure yeah a couple of months ago nasa made an announcement that they thought they had found evidence of or indications of a parallel universe and um i don't know if you saw that article or not but they thought that i don't know if they're theorizing that time operated in the opposite direction in that parallel universe now get your head around that one benjamin buttons you could go back in time you become a baby dark that's a great show in netflix oh is it i saw the uh um the image for it when i was scrolling the other day straight up it's like in a different language but they translate so the lips move a little differently but man it is deep you have to have like take notes as you watch it's about the mobius loop of time with alternate dimensions blew me the fuck away it's great it's great yeah it is the ultimate who knows question but god damn i wish more people from s4 would come forth if bob really did work with all those people and they really were briefed the same way he was if we could get more of those people to talk that would be utterly fascinating well your show has a big reach so maybe this time somebody will hear it did anybody ever reach out to you that claimed to also have worked with bob at s4 a bunch yeah yeah and and do you verify anyone no you know they could not be verified and in fact i think they were lying to me um and bob shoots people down all the time so that guy's fucking standing on ufo stage line bullshit i mean you know no he hasn't even he was hoping one other employee would um however i have had people that work at area 51 confirm parts of bob's story one in particular saw him coming off the jet where he says he saw him coming off the janet flights i said will you go on record with me that you met bob there on the tarmac no why everything we did there was confidential we couldn't even tell our wives why would i go on record with you and if he did go on record he'd probably get harassed or arrested or yeah he can't even tell you what he ate for lunch out there you know that so and one of the guys i was really excited to talk with just recently passed away he actually started the bar that was at area 51 so everybody told the bartender stuff he started as a flower fund because no one would send flowers to wives when people died out there but my point is people have come forward to george to me a lot of people are lying but it adds up over time man i got more than two dozen people who have come to me with bits and pieces of the story who had worked out at area 51 that i confirmed were out there uh security people who had seen a a disc uh under a a tarp in a in a hangar um different people had worked there at different times 50s 60s 70s and 80s who had little pieces of the story not to confirm bob and then there was one that i pursued i i don't know if you want to keep going on this but i pursued this guy i was trying to find in the early 90s people who were in a position to know about what goes on out there and i found one and he had he had been active in the nuclear weapons program he had worked for eg g he had eg g had the contract to manage area 51 from the beginning all the way through the first 30 or 40 years of it and so i started basically stalking the guy one of his sons was a state senator and he had told me he confided to me that you got to ask my dad about ufos and aliens and another son had been an fbi agent so i stalked the guy introduced myself there were a couple of public events where i would just show up and he finally got confident enough in me to invite me to his home and he start gets out these scrapbooks and he's showing me these stories and clippings and photos from the nuclear weapons program and i'm watching and taking notes and stuff and suddenly he closes the book and he goes you're not here to talk about this nuclear weapons are you i said no not really and his wife walks in and she says oh you're not going to tell him that stuff are you and then he started telling me and then over the course of two years i would meet with him have a cup of coffee somewhere i couldn't take notes i couldn't record anything but he told me the story now this guy actually is someone that you've had reference to on your show remember annie jacobson their book about eric yeah well it's the same guy but the story that he told me was different than what he told her he said that they eventually told me that they had a live alien out there that i could not go public with this until after he died that they um that they had craft that it was in a special spot originally was at indian springs which is now creech air force base and then it was moved area 51 when 51 became active and then there was a very small group that tried to analyze this stuff they didn't know where it was from they didn't know how we obtained it he said this thing was alive and and that they eventually were able to communicate with us and told me that he was going to make a videotape and he was going to make it available so that after he died i could have it well suddenly two or three years later he totally changes his story what had happened was there was a congressional investigator his name was richard damato and he worked for senator robert byrd and he oversaw black budget projects and he got onto this ufo story from whitley strieber and so he was assigned find out what the deal is so he went around the country talked to different researchers and came to me and wanted to know about area 51 and lazar so i told him a story and i told him about this guy and he got permission for this guy to violate his security oaths and talk to him about it and they had multiple conversations and they went to the founders of eg g the company and and uh it became a dead end but after that congressional inquiry this guy completely changed his tune so he made up this story which is the one that you heard from andy jacobson that what crashed at roswell was a russian technology a nazi technology flown by the russians containing uh little concentration camp victims who'd been experimented on by dr mengele completely ridiculous you know story um but i think he got scared he was a real guy in a real position to know and had shared with his family some of this information i think the story that he told me um was legit but if he made the tape which i think he did i didn't get it how much time has been wasted talking about bullshit yeah in this subject oh 100 centuries centuries that's part of the problem isn't it people just make shit up yeah and the more fanciful and ridiculous um the bet the better unfortunately people pay more to hear that and consume it i had an operation one time after the lazar thing somebody who was targeting me and he had other people helping him that convinced me that he had worked out there with live aliens and i'm getting letters from his supposedly written by his neighbors hey you got to check this guy out doctor i'll just say x he was taken away by armed security in the middle of the night i think he has something to do with aliens and from out of the blue then suddenly i am at a planetarium event and i'm going to speak about ufos at some event at this community college and the guy shows up in a men's room hey my name is dr x standing there at the urinal you're not doing a story about me are you so no who are you what this was a concerted effort to get me to believe that he had worked out there and it went on for a couple of years and of course it was complete bullshit when i finally did dig into his background i was able to document where he had worked and what he'd been doing through most of his life and it was just like a fantasy role-playing thing at least i hope it was so it's really hard to find credible people i'm super lucky to have jordan as a mentor because when i go left and i should be going right he's like i've already gone you know left a decade ago idiot you know check this out so but i don't think a lot of people have um somebody like george who can tell you what the bullshit is and prove it to you before you go down the wrong path so you're right this field of research or whatever it's filled with curiosity that's the good thing human desire everybody everybody in the world has a ufo story and knows somebody else who does so it's a common link between us all but it is filled with charlatans kooks freaks and schizophrenic sure you could say that mainly it's filled with good intended people who are curious too but having people like george over 35 years you know not make a major mistake report the news break stories open i'm grateful for that because it makes my job a lot easier i can filter the bullshit much faster so i'd say yes it sucks there's a lot of kooks and crazy people in this field but mainly there's a lot of curious people who are good intended i'm encouraged by what's happened in the last couple of years i mean not only the information coming out of the government because it's a little more solid than what you typically get from ufo people but also by the new wave of people who are now interested because of your show because of what's happened since the new york times story there's a whole new generation of people who are suddenly waking up and paying attention to it and are reading all the books and trying to figure this stuff out for themselves and also going through the process of separating wheat from chaff i'm glad to see that there's some new energy in it and ultimately i hope that those folks if not me will be able to get some answers on this someday well as preposterous as we would like if we want to sleep well at night we'd like to pretend that it's impossible it doesn't make any sense just when you look up you look up you see infinity you see hundreds of billions of stars just in this galaxy and this is one of hundreds of billions of galaxies of course there's something out there it's really just of course it's not if it's not do you think it's of course of course there's no fucking way there's not whatever happened here that created us is likely to have happened in an infinite number of different forms all throughout the cosmos the the real question is can they come here and the real question is if they have come here what where where from and how and and and how much how much interest do they have in us and how long have they been paying attention to us and how much of the ancient scriptures were really about that like you know i mean everybody shit all over zechariah sitchin's interpretations of the sumerian text but what if he's right like what if he's right what if the anunnaki really were creatures from another planet that came here and manipulated primate dna to create people and when you see those those ancient sumerian those clay tablets that were created where you see like a large god-like creature with a humanoid monkey creature with a tail sitting on its lap and this tiny thing and the the image of the solar system with the correct amount of planets and the sun in the center and all and you realize this was made 6 000 years ago like what is that like as much as people love to mock you know his his books what is that like what are what are these things what is this i mean obviously we lost some technologies because i mean i'm not an architect but the stones that are pressed together almost like they're molded all around the world in these like pyramid structures and washers you know it's my understanding that we we cannot create that now today at with as such perfection that's incredible if that's true is there a technology that we have figured out and then lost and we're just in a cycle of that or was there intervention well it's most likely there's been some catastrophes that set humanity back there's a lot of evidence that points to that there's a lot of evidence that points to this period i mean and graham hancock and randall carlson have done an amazing job of illuminating that on this podcast if you go back and listen to those episodes there's real physical evidence of asteroid impacts of meteor meteors hitting earth somewhere in the neighborhood of 12 000 years ago and that is also when you go to this this period of construction there's there's things that look like they could be older that are built differently particularly like in egypt than a lot of other parts of the world and then you find this layer of tr what's it called tritonite trinidad what is it trinity trinity trinity this nuclear glass they find that stuff all over when they do core samples and it's always around 12 000 years right and then the the almost uh instant changing of the ice age the floods that followed i mean all the stuff that's detailed in the bible like the floods and noah that coincides they believe with these impacts and that these impacts happened and it radically changed the climate killed an enormous amount of people probably set technology back thousands of years and then we are the product of this sort of slow reboot could there have been survivors that a small group of them that survived and now are more advanced than us it's a breakaway civilization also an interesting question a lot of people have explored i don't know yeah who knows it's it's one of those again time-wasting motherfuckers where you just yeah you could go down the rabbit hole at the end of time it you know it's central human kind of questions where are we on the food chain why are we here what what's the reason for this uh maybe and what is our reaction going to be if something visits i mean if something does really hover over the if trump wins the re-election and they're like enough some gigantic you know city-sized ufo hovers over the white house and we realize like oh okay i know people say we're ready we want to know we're ready we can handle it look at look how they're handling covet you know look at how freaked out people are over this we're not ready for anything maybe if i saw that what you're describing i mean i'd love to see a mothership you know if i ever saw something like that like val kilmer in that movie of the roller rink if i ever saw that i'd probably just be like cool job done that was fun studying that you would oh man you'd be like we gotta get a camera crew out there immediately netflix i got something you'd be driving there with your window rolled down screaming out the window to see it man honestly i just i think it would freak me out more than anything it's like oh shit it's probably different seeing it than hearing all these stories from people which i'm i'm open to everybody's contacting that's fine yeah but seeing it yourself i yeah i don't know how i would react but maybe i'd just be like it would be like you're on drugs i think i think you'd be like you're on psychedelic drugs i think seeing it would would shift your perception so radically i bet your your brain would overload i bet it would be really hard to wrap your head around just seeing it qualified reporters you know like policemen this is one i keep bringing up this guy man his mind when he saw this impossible thing and i i believe him he he did see what he what he said he tries to describe it in terms that make sense to him but he struggles because it was so odd the crap it was just so odd so i don't know if you ever see one let me know though because i'll let everybody know believe me you would yeah i would yeah yeah i haven't seen shit yeah yeah i'm like the inspector crusoe in my back turn all the time he'll probably see it before us but maybe well it would be really interesting they're like george you've been looking for a long time we'd like to talk to you i've wondered you know what would happen if even less than aliens or whoever they are if uh if somebody were to say all right we're going to show you we're going to open the hangar doors you can go in and see the sport model that lazar touched right you can never report on it again would you take that offer probably yeah i think i would too i'd shut my mouth i just wouldn't want to see it i mean selfishly and i'm admitting this because you ain't gonna find out if i say no fuckers right if i say no i have to tell everybody well then they're not gonna show me anyway that's right and if i do show it and i tell them then they're not gonna i tell people they're not gonna show me anything else yeah it's um it's a hard one do you have family members that you trust you know somebody that you trust that uh has reported something like that to you no no no nothing i could think of not like a good friend yeah trying to remember no one nothing nothing where you know there's there's things that people could get wrong right you know there's experimental aircrafts like i remember when the first time i saw stealth bombers after september 11th we were working out in palmdale doing fear factor and that's near edwards air force base and uh i saw one of those things fly by i was like holy shit it's the fucking it's the jedi's or something i mean it just looked like it looked like stormtroopers like it didn't look like something from this world when you see that have you seen a stealth fight it's crazy man you look at one of those things like that's a ufo like i felt like we were in some sort of strange movie a star wars movie it was wild seeing that thing fly across the sky i was like wow but i knew what it was you know i think if i really saw an actual ufo i bet i bet your brain would play all kinds of tricks on you in terms of perception and trying to interpret it especially if it's a very quick thing it was like you would roll that through your memory your member would fuck with you all kinds of different ways you would have all kinds of weird distorted ideas of what you saw and how you saw it what it exactly looked like it would be so hard to get a super accurate like recallable memory of what that thing is some of the most interesting ufo cases are where high strangeness is mixed in so it's not only seeing the craft but then a lot of really weird beautiful stuff like you're on mushrooms or something goblins like in a shooting gallery the hopkinsville case or you know other kinds of strange creatures and phenomena um maybe it comes with the territory here's what i noticed someone will call me and they say i don't want to be known i just want to tell somebody oh you seem accessible let me tell you my story don't report on okay cool got it they'll tell me they saw a ufo like a disc or something big not like a ball of light something big and i'll be like okay cool is that it is that where your story ends and and almost every time there's something much more personal much more strange that occurred almost every time so you have to imagine people are okay with reporting ufos to you or whatever they can say i saw what i think ufo but a lot of people aren't telling the full story until you really dig and find out because it makes them uncomfortable time distortions creatures beings so i don't know man if any of that's true you know if these if these experiences go beyond the hardware of the saucers this sort of thing then it gets more complicated um and on that note gentlemen we've passed the three hour mark believe it or not shit yeah thanks for having me joe my pleasure thank you for everything you've done over all the years you've made a gigantic impact on on me and my perceptions of this whole phenomenon and uh i think in the ufo community at large and thank you also jeremy for your documentaries what brought me around thanks joe that's awesome man thank you all right well thank you everybody [Music] [Music] bye

Channel: PowerfulJRE

Views: 3,729,048

Rating: 4.8053846 out of 5

Keywords: Joe Rogan Experience, JRE, Joe, Rogan, podcast, MMA, comedy, stand, up, funny, Freak, Party, George Knapp, Bob Lazar, UFO, Area 51, Skinwalker Ranch, Jeremy Corbell, JRE #1510

Id: Hc6pbG4wICA

Length: 176min 0sec (10560 seconds)

Published: Fri Jul 17 2020

Reddit Comments

[u/big_hearted_lion]

Joe Rogan says that Bob Lazar personally told him that he was involved in a project to design a weapon that was internationally very illegal at 11m20s. Does anyone know what weapon he is referring to?

[u/bdgm33]

You can hear Joe getting more and more frustrated with the lack of evidence as the show goes on.

[u/rickebones]

I know Jeremy gets a lot of hate in this sub, but I feel as if he’s a passionate dude on the subject and just gets really excited. I also think that he’s probably read a lot of the hate and only speaks when he has relevant info or opinions.

But my main point is on what a total pro George Knapp is. A lot of people are complaining about evidence (And obviously that is paramount), but George did a great job of not making baseless claims or trying to verify anything that wasn’t true. The stories and potential reasoning behind this subject are totally insane, and you can tell Joe was on the hunt for bullshit and George didn’t give him any reason to pounce. Knapp has done a lot of digging and has a ton of stories. The fact that he told a bunch of tales of “High Strangeness” but was very honest about his own confusion of the subjects discussed, showed you that he is at peace with his place in the collective paranormal zeitgeist. I didn’t want that episode to end. Super entertaining 👍🏼

[u/ShihPoosRule]

Very enjoyable and entertaining.

[u/DeadTom83]

Jeremy was very well behaved during this interview. If he acted like this most of the time almost nobody would have a problem with the guy. Maybe being around George helped him tone himself down a little bit, which makes him bearable, almost to the point of an enjoyable presence.

There's a lot of interesting stuff here, plenty to pique the interest in relation to ufology. The most humorous thing about the whole interview was the part where they discussed how ridiculous the ufo community can be and it reminded me about my experience in this subreddit. Specifically the part where they mentioned that 95% of things reported to be ufos are bullshit. It's like they channeled what I've been saying in this subreddit for the past several months. They even mentioned the dangers of charlatans, which I've always warned about as the largest detractor for ufo enthusiasts.

[u/offnr]

Joe: "What is the most compelling piece of physical evidence?"

Knapp: "I dont know"

Jeremy: "the fact that the government talks about it and tries to hide it. Like, I want to know what they're hiding."

[u/daedae11]

Why all the hate for Jeremy? I know he can be a little overzealous at times. I think that's just from his passion of the topic, he gets excited and on the last podcast would interrupt at times.

[u/DRACOSAPIEN]

Im like 2/3rds done with this interview. Im really enjoying it. Couple new tidbits ive learned that were new to me and ive been following this stuff since the 80's.

The hate for Jeremy sometimes is just stupid. So what he used to interrupt Joe a lot in the last interviews, he is way measured here. So what he puts his face n life in his documentaries. They are HIS documentaries, let him do his thing the way he does it. Id credit him with a decent % of renewed interest lately by the general public in UFOs, and he obviously got a real passion for it. Thank you Jeremy.

And Rogan. Im a fan of Rogan, love the guy. He goes into a diatribe around 1h:46m about the theory of genetic manipulation and the way he presents the theory and what he continues on after talking about, was really well said. Kudos to Joe. He admits not being smart in every podcast practically but he is damn smart , and he knows how to put things in an easy to understand logical perspective about various crazy things that the "average Joe" can wrap their head around, that should make anyone who wasnt subscribing to the alternative idea beforehand, stop and go "Hmmm".

Also, George Knapp. Love this guy, been listening to him for yearsss on C2C, a much better host than George Nory who seems to agree with every guest and appeases anything they say with his trademark "thats for sure". Knapp is a true classical journalist, and it comes across. If not for him a lot of the UFO story we all know, might not have been.

[u/btdWyatt]

I absolutely cannot stand Jeremy Corbell