♪ >> Doug: WELCOME ONCE AGAIN TO "FR. SPITZER'S UNIVERSE," I'M DOUG KECK. WE'RE LOCATED AT THE INTERSECTION OF FAITH AND REASON. AND WE'RE HERE AT THE EWTN STUDIOS IN IRONDALE, ALABAMA AND THAT'S THE WAY MOTHER ANGELICA ALWAYS WANTED IT. THAT BEGAN IN 1981 AND THIS SHOW HAPPENS EVERY WEEK. THANKS TO YOUR FEEDBACK AND SUPPORT. SO, YOU CAN EMAIL US, FACEBOOK, SEND US QUESTIONS, USE TWITTER. FOR MORE INFORMATION ON FATHER SPITZER, GO TO HIS WEB SITE, magiscenter.com. AND WHAT WE'RE WORKING THROUGH, crediblecatholic.com. AND WE'RE TALKING ABOUT HEAVEN AND HELL IN THE NEXT COUPLE OF PROGRAMS. SPEAKING OF HEAVEN AND HELL IN A LOT OF WAYS, THE CIVIL WAR WAS A TOUGH TIME, FAITH AND FURRY IS THE BOOK AND PUBLISHED BY EWTN PUBLISHING. OUR GREAT FRIEND, FATHER CHARLES CONNER BUT THIS TOGETHER DURING THE RISE OF CATHOLICISM DURING THE CIVIL WAR. AND WITH THIS COMING UP ON JULY 1, AND THEN 2, 3, 4 IN JULY, GETTYSBURG AND VICKSBURG, AND THAT'S COMING UP TOO. SO, YOU KNOW FATHER CHARLES CONNOR SO WELL BECAUSE EWTN IS THE PLACE TO FIND THIS. ewtnRC.com. AND YOU KNOW, CHRIST CATHEDRAL LOCATION, COMING INTO VIEW, FATHER SPITZER, ORANGE COUNTY, CALIFORNIA AND AS ALWAYS, ANOTHER MAN WITH A LOT OF BOOKS IN THE WORK! AND THEN, AS THINGS PROGRESS, FATHER, START WITH US A PRAYER. >> Father: ABSOLUTELY. IN THE NAME OF THE FATHER, SON, AND THE HOLY SPIRIT. AMEN. HEAVENLY FATHER WE GIVE YOU THANKS FOR THE BLESSING OF THIS MINISTRY, THIS ABILITY TO REACH SO MANY PEOPLE WITH THE GOOD NEWS OF YOUR SON. WE ASK YOU TO SEND YOUR HOLY SPIRIT DOWN UPON US THIS DAY TO INSPIRE US, GUIDE US, PROTECT US SO THAT EVERYTHING WE DO WILL BE BROUGHT TO FRUITION IN YOUR WILL. FOR THE GOOD OF YOUR PEOPLE, CHURCH, AND KINGDOM, WE ASK YOU TO BLESS DOUG AND MYSELF ESPECIALLY AND ALL OF OUR AUDIENCE MEMBERS THROUGH JESUS CHRIST OUR LORD. AMEN. MARY, SEAT OF WISDOM, PRAY FOR US. IN THE NAME OF THE FATHER, SON, AND HOLY SPIRIT. AMEN. >> Doug: VERY GOOD. LAST WEEK WE STARTED TALKING ABOUT HEAVEN AND THIS WEEK WE'LL FINISH UP WITH HEAVEN PART TWO. NOW, SOME QUESTIONS FROM OUR VIEWERS RECENTLY CAME TO US. HERE'S AN EMAIL. DEAR FATHER SPITZER, THE CHURCH TEACHES THAT GOD IS OUTSIDE OF TIME. SOME CHURCH FATHERS ALSO EXPLAIN PURGATORY AS BEING OUTSIDE OF TIME. SO, WOULDN'T HEAVEN BE OUTSIDE OF TIME? IF HEAVEN IS OUTSIDE TIME, WOULDN'T IT BE ENTIRELY POSSIBLE THAT A PERSON REACHING HEAVEN TODAY COULD POTENTIALLY BE ARRIVING AT ST PETER'S GATE AT THE SAME TIME AS SOMEONE WHO DIED 1800 YEARS AGO? THANKS, COREY. SO THAT'S A LOT OF TIME QUESTIONS. >> Father: COREY, VERY INTRIGUING QUESTION, MANY PARTS. SO, LET'S JUST START WITH THE VERY FIRST PART. THAT'S CORRECT. GOD IS OUTSIDE OF TIME. HOWEVER PURGATORY IS NOT OUTSIDE OF SOME FORM OF TEMPORALITY. AND WHAT I MEAN BY THAT, IT'S NOT PHYSICAL TEMPORALITY. SO, THE GENERAL THEORY OF RELATIVITY, WHICH APPLIES TO OUR UNIVERSE, FOR EXAMPLE, WILL NOT BE APPLICABLE IN PURGATORY FOR THAT MATTER, IN HEAVEN EITHER. BUT HUMAN BEINGS DON'T EXPERIENCE ETERNITY TIME ALSOLY AS GOD -- TIMELESSLY AS GOD DOES. THERE'S ONLY ONE THAT DOES. IN ORDER TO BE TIMELESS, YOU ACTUALLY HAVE TO BE UNRESTRICTED. AND I HAVE A VERY GOOD PROOF OF THAT IN MY BOOK, NEW PROOFS FOR THE EXISTENCE OF GOD BUT THAT'S IN CHAPTER 5. TAKE A LOOK AT THAT. AND FOR THE MAIN REASON, YOU CAN ONLY HAVE ONE TIMELESS BEING; AND THAT WOULD BE GOD. ONLY ONE INFINITE BEING AND THERE'S A GOOD PROOF OF IT. WITH RESPECT TO HUMAN BEINGS, WE ARE LIVING IN TIME. THAT IS TO SAY, SOME FORM OF TEMPORAL SUCCESSION WITH ALWAYS A PAST, PRESENT AND FUTURE. IT'S ¦GOING TO BE ON GOING OR EVERLIVING. WE'RE NOT TURNING INTO GOD'S OR INTO A TIMELESS ENTITY, OF COURSE, THAT REQUIRES A VIOLATION OF THE INFINITY OF GOD. SO, THE MAIN POINT I'M TRYING TO GET TO, BOTH PURGATORY AND HEAVEN WILL HAVE SOME FORM OF TEMPORAL SUCCESS FOR US, EARLIER, LATER, PAST, PRESENT, FUTURE. AND THAT MAKES THE THIRD PART OF YOUR QUESTION SORT OF ANSWERED. WE'RE NOT TIMELESS, SO, WE'RE NOT GOING TO HAVE THE INSTANCE WHERE SOMEBODY WHO DIED 2,000 YEARS AGO GETTING TO HEAVEN AT THE SAME TIME AS WE ARE. OBVIOUSLY ARRIVING AT A DIFFERENT TIME AND THAT TEMPORAL STRUCTURE WILL BE IN HEAVEN BUT WE'RE EVER LASTING AND YOU KNOW, WE'LL GO INFINITELY INTO THE FUTURE BUT NOT THE PAST BECAUSE THAT'S A CONTRADICTION. SO, WE'LL SHARE IN A SENSE, IN THE ETERNITY OF GOD BY HAVING AN INDEFINITE FUTURE. BUT WE'LL NOT SHARE IN THE ETERNITY OF GOD BY BEING THE ETERNAL NOW, THE ONE TIMELESS INFINITE BEING. I HOPE THAT HELPS YOU, COREY. >> Doug: LET ME ASK YOU SOMETHING TOO. WHAT IF THAT PERSON 1800 YEARS AGO WENT TO PURGATORY AND THEY ARE JUST GETTING OUT AT THE SAME TIME BUT LET'S SAY IT WAS YOUR MOTHER -- >> Father: OH, THAT'S RIGHT. THERE'S NO VIOLATION OF ANY TEMPORAL SEQUENCING. >> Doug: OKAY. ALL RIGHT. HERE'S ANOTHER QUESTION ABOUT HEAVEN. DEAR FATHER, I WATCHED YOUR LAST PROGRAM ABOUT HEAVEN, AND I'M PONDERING ABOUT WHERE HEAVEN WILL BE WHEN JESUS RETURNS TO EARTH FOR HIS 1,000-YEAR REIGN, AS WE ARE TOLD IN REVELATION. THAT'S WHAT WE NEED TO DEAL WITH FIRST. WHAT DOES THE CHURCH TEACH OF THE NEW JERUSALEM? INITIALLY, I THOUGHT IT WOULD NOT BE ON EARTH, BUT MY PRIEST TELLS ME IT WILL REPLACE THE PHYSICAL JERUSALEM THAT WE NOW KNOW. THANK YOU, DORIAN. A COUPLE OF THINGS GOING ON, NEW JERUSALEM, TALKING ABOUT REVELATION. >> WELL, FIRST QUICK THREE POINTS. FIRST OF ALL, HEAVEN ITSELF, IF WE MEAN THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN WE'RE TALKING ABOUT THE ESCHATOLOGICAL KINGDOM, THE FULLNESS OF THE KINGDOM OF GOD TO WHICH WE'RE ALL BEING CALLED. THAT'S NOT GOING TO CHANGE IN ANY WAY. OF COURSE, THE IDEA OF WHERE WILL IT BE BE, WELL, IT'S STILL IN GOD'S DOMAIN. IN GOD'S MEDITATIVE ACT. THE HE ESCHATOLOGICAL KINGDOM OF HEAVEN, THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN PREPARED BY GOD IS NOT COMING TO EARTH. THAT'S THE FIRST THING. IT'S NOT GOING TO BE PHYSICAL NOR COME DOWN HERE. THAT'S A DEFINITE MISINTERPRETATION OF THE BOOK OF REVELATION. NOW, BECAUSE IT IS TRANS-PHYSICAL, BECAUSE IT IS AS IT WERE, SUPERNATURAL AND HEAVENLY WILL REMAIN SUPERNATURAL AND HEAVENLY AND NOT TAKE ON ANY OF THE RESTRICTIONS OF PHYSICALITY OR WHAT WE CALL THE DOMAIN OF PHYSICS IN NATURE. THAT'S NOT JUST GOING TO HAPPEN. SECONDLY, THE IDEA OF THE NEW JERUSALEM DOES NOT REFER TO A REPLACEMENT OF THE OLD JERUSALEM THAT'S DOWN HERE ON EARTH. BECAUSE IF THAT WERE THE CASE, THEN THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN WOULD REALLY HAVE TO COME DOWN TO EARTH AND BE SUBJECTED TO THE RESTRICTIONS OF PHYSICALITY ONCE AGAIN. NOT GOING TO HAPPEN. NOW, IF YOU ARE GOING TO SAY, NO, IN FACT, THE EARTH IS GOING TO BE TRANSPORTED TO THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN. WELL, THAT'S IT. THAT'S THE END OF THE WORLD. THAT'S IT. THERE ISN'T GOING TO BE ANYTHING LEFT OF THAT. SO, FOR ALL INTENSIVE PURPOSES, WE CAN'T GET INTO A CATEGORY ERROR OF MAKING THE KINGDOM OF GOD COME TO EARTH OR IF WE MAKE THE JERUSALEM KINGDOM GO UP TO HEAVEN. I MEAN, SUDDENLY, IT THEN BECOMES HEAVENLY AND IT'S NO LONGER EARTHLY AND THAT'S THE END OF THAT KINGDOM OF JERUSALEM. IT'S NO LONGER IN A PHYSICAL DOMAIN. SO, WE GOT TO KEEP THOSE THINGS PRETTY MUCH SEPARATED. SO, WHAT'S THE PROBLEM? THE PROBLEM IS TRYING TO INTERPRET THE BOOK OF REVELATION. AND THIS IS A HUGE, HUGE HERMENEUTICAL OR EXEGETICAL PROBLEM. NOW, EXEGESIS SIS IS STUDY OF SCHOLAR AND HERMENEUTIC, HOW DO YOU INTERPRET THE VARIOUS BOOKS. NOW, IN THE BOOK OF REVELATION, WHAT'S GOING ON, YOU HAVE BASICALLY WHAT'S CALLED APOP LIP AT THIS PARTICULAR I AM DEGREE. AND -- IMAGERY. THAT MEANS THAT IT'S NOT LITERAL, NOT MEANT TO BE TAKEN LITERAL. IT'S POINTING TO A REALITY BEYOND US. SO, YOU CAN SAY CERTAIN THINGS, YOU KNOW, THE BOOK OF REVELATION POINTS TO CERTAIN THINGS, THE SAINTS AND ANGELS ARE PRAYING FOR THE BLESSED ON EARTH, RIGHT, THE PEOPLE WHO ARE FAITHFUL ON EARTH. THAT'S A TRUISM THAT'S GIVEN. OR YOU KNOW, THAT MARY IS INVOLVED IN OUR SALVATION. SO, YOU CAN MAKE THESE GENERAL KINDS OF INFERENCES FROM THE BOOK OF REVELATION WHICH ARE PERFECTLY VALID AND CONSISTENT WITH OTHER CATHOLIC DOCTRINES AND WITH THE REST OF THE NEW TESTAMENT. HOWEVER, YOU HAVE TO BE VERY, VERY CAREFUL ABOUT TALKING ABOUT A LITERAL TRANSLATION OF THE THOUSAND YEAR REIGN. EVERY SINGLE NUMBER IN THE BOOK OF REVELATION HAS A SYMBOLIC MEANING. SO, 144,000 BEING SAVED. YOU CAN'T TAKE THAT LITERALLY. THOSE NUMBERS NEVER WERE MADE TO BE LITERAL BY THE AUTHOR, RIGHT, JOHN OF EPHESUS, NOT MEANT TO BE LITERAL. THEY WERE MEANT TO BE SYMBOLIC AND THEY HAVE SPECIFIC, VERY SYMBOLIC SPECIFIC MEANINGS. >> AND WE SEE THAT WITH THE JEHOVAH WITNESSES, WHY THEY TAKE IT LITERALLY AND WHY IT CAUSES THEM PROBLEMS, TRYING TO EXPLAIN THAT AWAY. >> Father: ABSOLUTELY. AND BASICALLY, YOU START TAKING THE NUMBERS, THE THOUSAND YEAR REIGN MEANS A LONG REIGN. AND THAT'S WHAT YOU CAN SAY. WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY THE REIGN? WE DON'T KNOW. WE DON'T KNOW WHAT THE REIGN REFERS TO. AND WE SHOULDN'T BE TRYING TO GIVE IT A LITERAL MEANING. AND WE DON'T WANT TO UNDERCUT JESUS' WORDS IN THE GOSPEL, HE SAYS, NOT EVEN THE SON OF MAN KNOWS THE DATE NOR THE HOUR. SO YOU ARE NOT GOING TO HOUR. WHEN HE TALKS ABOUT THE SON OF MAN, HE'S TALKING ABOUT HIMSELF IN THE HUMAN EMBODIMENT. AND HE IN HIS DIVINE SONSHIP KNOWS OF COURSE WHEN THESE FUTURE EVENTS ARE GOING TO HAPPEN. EVEN IN HIS OWN, THE DIVINE PERSON EMBODIED IN HIS OWN HUMAN BODY DOESN'T KNOW WHEN THIS IS GOING TO HAPPEN. SO, WE'RE NOT GOING TO KNOW WHEN THIS IS GOING TO HAPPEN. AND WE HAVE TO STOP MAKING ALL OF THESE INFERENCES, THE END OF THE WORLD IS GOING TO HAPPEN TOMORROW. THAT'S WHY CATHOLICS DON'T GO AROUND DOING THAT. SOME RELIGIONS DO. BUT THEY ARE WRONG IN DOING THAT. THE WORDS OF JESUS HAVE TO BE RESPECTED AND TAKEN VERY LITERALLY THERE, RIGHT? IT WOULDN'T HAVE BEEN INCLUDED IN THE NEW TESTAMENT IF JESUS DID NOT MEAN THAT. SO WE BASICALLY HAVE TO HAVE NOT A STANDOFF ITCH VIEWPOINT -- IS ANOFFISH VIEWPOINT IN THE BOOK OF REVELATION WHERE WE DERIVE IMPORTANT TRUTHS FROM THE BOOK OF REVELATION BUT NOT GIVING IT WHAT'S CALLED AN ALLEGORICAL INTERPRETATION. SO, THERE HAS TO BE A MEANING FOR EVERY IMAGE IN THE BOOK OF REVELATION. THERE HAS TO BE A MEANING OR A REAL EVENT THAT CORRESPONDS TO EVERYTHING THAT'S SAID IN THE BOOK OF REVELATIONS. SO WE DON'T WANT TO DO THAT, IF YOU DO DO THAT, YOU ARE GOING TO COME UP WITH THE MOST BIZARRE RELIGION THAT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH CATHOLICISM IN A HURRY. WHAT'S INTERESTING IS, WHEN THE CANON OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH WAS BEING FORMED, THAT IS TO SAY, WHEN THE EARLY CHURCH FATHERS WERE PICKING OUT THE BOOKS TO BE INCLUDED IN THE NEW TESTAMENT AND REJECTING THE ONES THAT WERE NOT GOING TO BE INCLUDED IN THE NEW TESTAMENT, THAT'S CALLED PICKING THE CANON, SELECTING THE CANON. WHEN THEY WERE WORKING ON THIS, THERE WERE A COUPLE OF NEW TESTAMENT BOOKS WHICH WERE ALWAYS THOUGHT TO BE A LITTLE BIT CONTROVERSIAL. GUESS WHICH ONE STOOD IN THE FRONT OF THE LINE? BOOK OF REVELATION. AND SOME OF THE CHURCH FATHERS DIDN'T WANT IT INCLUDED. BUT IN THE END, THE MAJORITY OF THEM DID. AND WHEN THIS PASSED BY THE HOLY SEE, AND THE CANON OF HOLY SCRIPTURE WAS FINALLY PASSED, IT WAS INCLUDED. BUT WE HAVE TO BE VERY, VERY CAREFUL HOW WE INTERPRET IT. WHY DID THE CHURCH, SOME OF THE CHURCH FATHERS SAY I'M NOT SO SURE ABOUT THIS BOOK? THEY DID IT BECAUSE OF THE POSSIBLE CONFUSION OF THE INTERPRETATION THAT COULD ENSUE BY TRYING TO TREAT ALLEGORICAL, APOCALYPTIC IMAGERY IN SOME SORT OF FASHION. YOUR QUESTION IS GREET BUT KEEP IT AT BAY THERE. THINK MAYBE YOUR PRIEST MIGHT HAVE SAID, WELL, THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN WAS GOING TO COME DOWN AND REPLACE THE KINGDOM OF JERUSALEM FOR A THOUSAND YEARS, I THINK MAYBE YOU MIGHT HAVE MISUNDERSTOOD WHAT HE WAS TRYING THAT WOULD REALLY COME INTO SOME TERRIBLE CONTRADICTIONS, YOU KNOW, SORT OF MAKING THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN SUBJECT TO PHYSICAL THINGS FOR TRYING TO MAKE THE KINGDOM OF JERUSALEM GO INTO HEAVEN AND STILL REMAIN ON EARTH. THAT'S NOT CORRECT. >> Doug: LET ME ASK YOU, OUR LORD SAID, I DO NOT EVEN KNOW IN MY HUMAN FORM. SO, A, DOES THAT MEAN WE SHOULDN'T WORRY ABOUT THE END OF THE WORLD OR SHOULD WE WORRY ABOUT THE FACT THAT I MAY MEET THE LORD TOMORROW, OR TODAY. >> Father: I THINK YOU OUGHT TO WORRY ABOUT THE END OF OUR LIVES, OUR IMPENDING DEATHS. WE'RE ALL NOT GOING TO LIVE FOREVER. IN FACT, AS I ALWAYS TELL MY STUDENTS, YOU ARE NOT GETTING OUT OF THIS LIFE ALIVE. I MEAN, THAT'S THE POINT. AND THAT'S WHAT WE KNOW IS COMING, YOU KNOW, WORRYING ABOUT WHETHER THE END IS COMING TOMORROW OR 20 YEARS FROM NOW. I GOT 20, 30 YEARS, MAX. AND I GOT TO PLAN ON THAT. SO, ST. IGNATIUS SAYS, WORK AS IF EVERYTHING DEPENDS ON YOU AND PRAY AS IF EVERYTHING DEPENDS ON GOD, BECAUSE IT DOES. SO, THE POINT THAT I'M TRYING TO GET TO, LET'S JUST KEEP OUR NOSE TO THE GRIND STONE. LET'S JUST STAY ON THE PATH TO HOLINESS. WE DON'T KNOW. YOU CAN SAY, OH, I HAVE 20, 30 YEARS MAX, I MAY BE HIT BY THE BUS TOMORROW. THAT'S IT. SO, WE JUST WANT TO BE ATTENTIVE TO SALVATION AND NOT TRY ANY, WHAT I CALL EXEGETICAL TRICKERY OF TRYING TO PREDICT WHEN THE END OF THE WORLD IS COMING FROM THE BOOK OF REVELATIONS. YOU CAN FILL AN ENCYCLOPEDIA OF WRONG INTERPRETATIONS OF THE DATE FOR THE APOCALYPSE FROM THE BOOK OF REVELATION. I MEAN, THAT'S IT. >> Doug: YEAH, RIGHT. YEAR 1,000, LATE GREAT PLANET EARTH, WHOLE LIT ME OF -- LITANY OF PEOPLE ATTEMPTING TO DO THAT. >> Father: WELL, YEAH, HOW ABOUT THE LAST SETS OF FIVE OR SIX PROPHETS THAT PREDICTED, ABOUT 20 YEARS AGO, THEN 15 YEARS AGO, 12 YEARS AGO, 9 YEARS AGO. OOPS. SLIGHT MISCALCULATION. AND REALLY, FOREVER. >> Doug: AND THE OTHER PART IS, TOO, WE'RE ALL GOING TO BE JUDGED INDIVIDUALLY. >> Father: OH, YEAH. >> Doug: SO WHETHER YOU GO WITH A GROUP OR BY YOURSELF, YOU ARE STILL JUDGED INDIVIDUALLY. >> Father: RIGHT. CALLED THE PARTICULAR JUDGMENT AND PART OF CATHOLIC DOCTRINE. >> Doug: VERY GOOD. HERE'S ANOTHER QUESTION. THIS IS RIGHT UP YOUR ALLEY FROM OUR EARLIER DISCUSSIONS. THIS IS AN EMAIL. FR. SPITZER, I'VE READ THAT BLOOD SAMPLES TAKEN FROM THE EUCHARISTIC MIRACLES IN ARGENTINA AND LANCIANO, AS WELL AS THE SHROUD OF TURIN AND THE SUDARIUM OF OVIEDO HAVE ALL TESTED POSITIVE FOR AB+ BLOOD, THE RAREST IN THE WORLD. ARE THERE ANY PLANS FOR THE CHURCH TO DETERMINE THE DNA ON THESE ITEMS TO IDENTIFY THE HUMAN SOURCE? WOULD THIS BE MORALLY DANGEROUS? JENNY. >> Father: JENNY, THERE HAVE BEEN ATTEMPTS. FIRST OF ALL, THOUGH, YOU ARE CORRECT. ALL FOUR OF THEM DO HAVE AB POSITIVE BLOOD TYPE. AND NO QUESTION OF THAT. THAT'S BEEN QUESTIONED AGAIN AND AGAIN, ALL FOUR OF THOSE SOURCES THAT YOU MENTIONED. ALL OF THEM, THAT IS CORRECT. ALL OF THEM DO HAVE DNA. SO, THE SHROUD OF TURIN CERTAINLY HAS MALE DNA PRESENT THERE IN THE BLOOD TYPE. NOW, WHY CAN'T WE TAKE, YOU KNOW, A DNA SAMPLE THAT'S MORE SIGNIFICANT TO LOOK AT. BECAUSE THESE PARTICULAR RELICS HAVE BEEN TOUCHED AND CONTAMINATED TO THE HILT. I MEAN, JUST ABSOLUTELY IMPOSSIBLE RIGHT NOW, TO GET A DNA SAMPLE THAT'S ANYTHING CLOSE TO ACCURATE. YES, ATTEMPTS HAVE BEEN MADE TO GET PARTIAL DNA SAMPLES. AND THERE ARE PARTIAL DNA SAMPLES IN THE BLOOD OF ALL OF THESE RELICS. BUT BY NO MEANS, ANYTHING THAT COULD BE CONSIDERED COMPLETE. THERE IT IS. >> SO, WITH THE DNA, THINK, WASN'T IT CALLED THE DNA OF GOD, SOMETHING LIKE THAT AT ONE TIME. YOU KNOW, IF YOU ARE HAD THE DNA THAT YOU COULD ACTUALLY GET, IT WOULD BE ONLY FROM OUR LORD'S PHYSICAL HUMAN SIDE, RIGHT, OBVIOUSLY? >> Father: THAT'S CORRECT BUT OF COURSE, YOU KNOW, THIS IS NOT GOING TO PROVE WHETHER, THERE'S ALWAYS THIS DEBATE GOING ON WHETHER MARY WAS ABLE TO CONTRIBUTE A Y CHROMOSOME TO JESUS. SO, OF COURSE, AS YOU PROBABLY KNOW SCIENTIFICALLY, ONLY A MAN CAN CONTRIBUTE A Y CHROMOSOME. WELL, WAIT A MINUTE. THEN HOW COULD MARY BE THE ONLY HUMAN AGENT TO GIVE RISE TO JESUS. THE SIMPLE ANSWER IS, GOD CAN CREATE ANOTHER HALF GENOME. SO, MARY PROVIDES HER HALF OF THE GENOME WHICH WOULD NOT HAVE THE Y CHROMOSOME. BUT IF GOD CAN INCARNATE HIS SON'S DIVINE PERSONHOOD WITHIN THE WOMB OF MARY, I CAN ASSURE YOU, NO PROBLEM CREATING THE OTHER HALF OF THE GENOME FOR JESUS WHICH WOULD BE THE MALE COUNTERPART BY A COMPLETE MIRACLE. AND BY THE WAY, I HAVE NO TROUBLE BELIEVING THIS BECAUSE I HAVE NO TROUBLE BELIEVING IN THE INCARNATION WHICH IS MUCH MORE SPECTACULAR THAN THE CONTRIBUTION OF A HALF GENOME. AND I HAVE NO PROBLEM BELIEVING IN CHRIST'S REAL PRESENCE IN THE EUCHARIST WHICH IS MUCH MORE SPECTACULAR THAN THE CONTRIBUTION OF A HALF GENOME. AND I HAVE NEVER GOTTEN INTO THE WHOLE QUESTION OF THAT. AND OBVIOUSLY, MARY DID NOT CONTRIBUTE A Y CHROMOSOME TO JESUS. OF COURSE, GOD COULD HAVE GIVEN HER THAT CONTRIBUTION BUT I WOULD SUSPECT THAT IT'S MUCH EASIER FOR GOD TO GIVE A HALF GENOME, THE Y CHROMOSOME, IN COMBINATION WITH MARY'S EGG WHICH WOULD HAVE PRODUCED THE HUMAN OFFSPRING IN A PERFECTLY MALE WAY. SO, IF YOU COULD GET A PERFECT DNA SAMPLE, YOU MAY LOOK AT, WELL, WHAT DID GOD WANT TO COMBINE WITH MARY'S DNA AND THEN WE HAVE TO KNOW, WAIT A MINUTE. WHAT WAS MARY'S DNA. AND THEN YOU HAVE TO TRY TO SORT THAT OUT. AND WE DON'T HAVE THE TECHNOLOGY TO DO THAT RIGHT NOW. WHY NOT? WELL, WHY WOULD THIS BE MORALLY WORRYING? IT WOULD NOT BE I THINK. BECAUSE IT'S JUST THE PARTICULAR GENOME THAT GOD CHOSE TO COMBINE WITH MARY'S PART OF THE GENOME OF JESUS. AND I WOULD BE INTERESTED TO KNOW. BUT RIGHT NOW, WE'RE NOT ABLE TO DO THAT. >> Doug: AND NOT CENTRAL TO ANYBODY'S SALVATION. >> Father: AND CERTAINLY NOT CENTRAL TO ANYBODY'S SALVATION. BUT THE MAIN PART, THE DIVINE PERSON WAS THERE AS WELL. AND THAT'S THE PERSON, WHEN I THINK, THAT SELF CONSCIOUSNESS OF THE SECOND PERSON, THE SON COMES INTO THE INCARNATE FORM IN MARY'S WOMB, THAT'S WHEN YOU GET SOMETHING TRULY MASKT THAT'S -- MAGNIFICENT TO SALVATION AND JESUS BROUGHT THE KINGDOM OF GOD RIGHT INTO OUR MIDST. AND THAT KINGDOM OF GOD IS RIGHT HERE IN THE CHURCH TODAY, THROUGH THE HOLY SPIRIT COURSING THROUGH THE CHURCH IMPERFECT AS IT IS, AND INHABITED BY HUMAN BEINGS, IT'S STILL THERE, CONNECTED WITH THE REAL BLESSED IN THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN IN WHAT WE CALL THE COMMUNION OF SAINTS. SO, THAT'S EVERYTHING REQUIRED FOR SALVATION AND CERTAINLY PRESENT. GREAT QUESTION. >> Doug: OKAY. HERE'S ANOTHER QUESTION FOR YOU. DEAR FATHER SPITZER, AN EMAIL THAT SAYS TO US, WHAT ARE DIFFERENCES BETWEEN PROPHETS, MYSTICS, AND PSYCHICS? IS THERE A WAY TO DISCERN SOMEONE WHO IS A MESSENGER OF GOD VERSUS SOMEONE WITH AN OUTSIDE INFLUENCE? I HAVE A RELATIVE WHO CLAIMS TO HAVE A PSYCHIC ABILITY SINCE YOUTH, WHO EXPERIENCES THINGS THAT OTHERS GO THROUGH. HE DOESN'T TALK MUCH ABOUT IT, HOWEVER. I WANT TO BE SURE THAT WE ARE FAITHFUL TO GOD. >> Father: OKAY. LET ME JUST GIVE YOU A PRIMARY DISTINCTION RIGHT FROM THE BEGINNING. WE'LL JUST SEPARATE IT OUT. A GENUINE PROPHET VS. FALSE PROPHET. GENUINE MYSTIC VS. FALSE MYSTIC. I'M NOT GOING TO CALL HIM A PSYCHIC, GENUINE SICKIC. -- PSYCHIC. I'LL JUST CALL HIM PSYCHIC. THEY DON'T HAVE A GENUINE BASE FROM WHICH TO OPERATE. THERE'S NO GUIDANCE FROM THE HOLY SPIRIT NECESSARILY. AND BECAUSE OF THAT, THERE'S NO GUARANTEE THAT THAT PERSON IS WITHIN THE CHURCH THAT THE HOLY SPIRIT IS ACTUALLY DOING THE SPEAKING. GUESS WHO ELSE COULD BE DOING THE SPEAKING? OF COURSE. YOU COULD HAVE THE DEVIL DOING THE SPEAKING. OR YOU COULD ACTUALLY HAVE A HUMAN GHOST OR SOMETHING OF THAT NATURE WHO IS ALSO IMPLANTING A SUGGESTION OR TWO, ET CETERA, ET CETERA. NOW, ALL OF THESE THINGS ARE PRESENT. AND WHO IS TO DETERMINE, WHO IS TO KNOW? UNLESS YOU HAVE A MAGISTERIAL AUTHORITY GUARANTEED BY CHRIST, AS HAPPENS WITH OUR OWN HOLY FATHER, WITH THE POPE, RIGHT, THERE'S A MAGISTERIAL AUTHORITY GUARANTEED BY CHRIST. BUT WHO IS TO KNOW IF YOU DO NOT HAVE A DOCTRINAL BASE FROM WHICH TO OPERATE THAT'S GROUNDED IN THE TEACHING OF JESUS AND HAS BEEN INTERPRETED BY THAT MAGISTERIAL AUTHORITY. THAT PSYCHIC IS OPERATING IN THE WILDERNESS. HE DOESN'T KNOW WHO HE IS CHANNELING. NOW, CAN YOU HAVE PSYCHICS THAT CHANNEL SPIRITS. YEP. AND DO YOU HAVE PSYCHICS THAT CHANNEL DEVILS. YEP. DO YOU HAVE A PSYCHIC THAT MAY CHANNEL THE HOLY SPIRIT. YEP. BUT MY WOUL ONE THOUGHT IS, I WOULDN'T COUNT ON IT. BECAUSE THEY DON'T ACKNOWLEDGE. IF THEY DON'T ACKNOWLEDGE THAT JESUS IS THE SON OF GOD, AND THEY DO NOT ACKNOWLEDGE THAT THE TRUTH IS CONTAINED IN THE TEACHING OF JESUS AS INTERPRETED BY THE CATHOLIC CHURCH, I WOULD SAY, WHEN YOU APPROACH A PSYCHIC, RUN BAM ABOUT BEE -- BAMBI RUN. THE ODDS OF GETTING SOMETHING FALSE ARE MUCH HIGHER THAN THE ODDS OF GETTING SOMETHING TRUE. REMEMBER, THE DEVIL IS A TRICKY, TRICKY GUY. AND HIS ATTEMPT, BY IN LARGE IS TO GET YOU TO SAY, OH, SORT OF, WELL, THAT SOUNDS TRUE. THAT SOUNDS TRUE. THINK THIS PSYCHIC IS REALLY WITH IT. AND THEN COMES THE CURVE BALL EVER SO SUBTLY AND THEN UNTIL YOU PLAY OUT THE WRAM IF I -- RAMIFICATIONS OF THE CURVE BALL, YOU ARE IN THE DOMAIN OF FALSITY AND HERESY, YOU ARE IN THE DOMAIN OF THE DEVIL, NAMELY, HELL. YOU ARE IN HIS BALL PARK NOW. STAY AWAY FROM PSYCHICS. DON'T HAVE YOUR PALMS RED, NO TAR O CARDS, STAY AWAY FROM THE WHOLE LOT OF IT. THEY DON'T ACKNOWLEDGE JESUS AS THE SON OF GOD, AND HIS TEACHING AS THE FOUNDATION INTERPRETED BY THE CATHOLIC CHURCH. AND SECONDLY, LET'S GET INTO THE SUBJECT OF FALSE PROPHET VS. TRUE PROPHETS. NOW, SINCE THE DAY OF THE OLD TESTAMENT THERE'S BEEN FALSE PROPHETS AND TRUE PROPHETS. BUT THE DISTINCTION IS THAT THE HOLY SPIRIT OF GOD IS SPEAKING THROUGH THE TRUE PROPHET. AND THERE ARE SIGNS OF TRUE PROPHECY. NOW, YOU DON'T HAVE TO BE THE ONE TO DISCERN THOSE SIGNS OF TRUE PROPHECY IN TODAY'S, THIS DAY AND AGE BECAUSE WE HAVE THE CATHOLIC CHURCH. THE CATHOLIC CHURCH CAN ACTUALLY, YOU KNOW, MAKE SOME DETERMINATION OR A BISHOP CAN MAKE SOME DETERMINATION ON WHO IS PROPHETICALLY SOUND AND WHO IS NOT. YES, PAUL DID ACKNOWLEDGE PROPHECY AS A GENUINE CHARISM OF THE HOLY SPIRIT. BUT PAUL ACKNOWLEDGES THAT THERE IS TRUE AND FALSE PROPHETS. JESUS ACKNOWLEDGES THAT THERE'S TRUE AND FALSE PROPHETS. SO, THE MAYBE THING -- MAIN THING IS, WELL, I'M ONE PROPHET AND I CONSIDER JESUS TO BE THE SOURCE OF SALVATION AND SO FORTH AND SO ON. TWO THINGS SHOULD IMMEDIATELY FLOW INTO YOUR MIND. WELL, THE FIRST THING IS, HOW DOES THIS STACK UP TO RESPECT TO CHRISTIAN DOCTRINE AS INTERPRETED BY THE CHURCH. THAT'S THE FIRST THING. AND IF SOMEBODY SOUNDS WEASELLY, IT PROBABLY IS. SO MY THOUGHT WOULD BE, BOY, I WOULD BE REALLY CAREFUL ABOUT ATTRIBUTING TRUE PROPHECY TO PEOPLE, EVEN IF THEY HAVE THE SLIGHTEST SEEMING DEVIATION, I WOULD JUST SAY, HEY. YOU KNOW, I'M NOT SO SURE I'M GOING WITH THIS AS PROPHECY. I WOULD BE REALLY CAREFUL. THE SAME THING HOLDS TRUE FOR MYSTICS. MYSTICS, OF COURSE, CLAIM TO HAVE A SPIRITUAL AND ECSTATIC VISION OF GOD. MANY OF THEM DO NOT HAVE, FOR EXAMPLE, ANY KIND OF DECLARED PROPHECIES PER SE. BUT THEY DO HAVE SOME REAL THOUGHTS ABOUT WHAT GOD IS, HEAVEN IS, AND THE JOURNEY THROUGH MYSTICAL PURGATION THROUGH THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN AND THROUGH PURGATION TO THE MYSTICAL LIFE. NOW, THE CHURCH HAS APPROVED MANY OF THESE MYSTICS. THERESA OF AFTER LA, SAINT JOHN OF THE CROSS, AND MANY OTHERS. AND IF YOU WANT TO START GO WITH THE AUTOBIOGRAPHY OF ST. THERESA OF AVILA. AND THERE'S REALLY GOOD BOOKS OUT THERE, SYNTHESIS, LITTLE MORE EASY TO SORT OF UNDERSTAND. SOME GREAT SYNTHESIS ON ST. THERESA'S A AUTOBIOGRAPHY FROM E INSTITUTE OF THE CARMELITE STUDIES. >> Doug: THAT'S VERY GOOD. AND WE'RE GOING TO HAVE A LITTLE BREAK RIGHT HERE. STAY WITH US, BECAUSE WE'RE HERE ON "FR. SPITZER'S UNIVERSE" AND WE'RE COMING BACK TO TALK ABOUT HEAVEN. ♪ ♪ >> Doug: THANKS SO MUCH FOR STAYING WITH US. WE'RE AT THE HEARTILY OF "FR. SPITZER'S UNIVERSE." WE'RE TALKING ABOUT HEAVEN AND WE'RE WELCOMING FATHER SPITZER BACK FROM THE WEST COAST. SPEAKING ABOUT THE PSYCHICS, RECENTLY, I DID A BOOK WITH THE DOMINICAN PRIEST. THE INTERVIEW HASN'T AIRED AND WE TALKED OFFLINE. HE TALKED ABOUT ONE TIME WHEN HE CAME IN AND SOME OF HIS CONFRERES HAD TAR O CARDS AND HE WAS, LIKE, NO, NO, GUYS, I DON'T THINK SO. AND THEY SAID, YES YES. AND THEN COUPLE WEEKS LATER I CAME BACK AND SAID, WHAT HAPPENED TO THE TAR O CARDS. AND THEY SAID, WELL, WE ASKED WHO ARE WE TALKING TO. AND THEY SAID IT WAS A DEMON. DOES THE DEMON HAVE A NAME. AND THEY SAID, THE DEVIL. AND THEY SAID, OH, THINK WE SHOULD GET RID OF THESE CARDS. >> Father: WELL, THERE YOU GO. INSTANT DISCOVERY LUCKILY. >> Doug: JUST THAT YOU ARE NOT TALKING TO SOMEBODY. IT'S WHO ARE YOU TALKING TO. >> Father: WHO ARE YOU TALKING TO. AND WHEN PEOPLE ARE USING TAROH CARDS, YOU KNOW, THAT'S GUARANTEE ALMOST YOU ARE NOT TALKING TO GOD. >> Doug: AND IF THAT WERE THE CASE, HE WOULD HAVE WARNED YOU. >> Father: EXACTLY AND THE EWINGA BOARD IS THE WORST. STAY AWAY WITH ANYTHING WITH THE OCCULT BRAND. YOU KNOW, RUN BAMBI RUN. THE DEVIL IS ALL OVER IT. >> AND IT'S INTERESTING, I WATCHED THE FOX SISTERS. THEY WERE WELL KNOWN IN THE 19 HUNDREDS WITH HAVING SEANCES AND STUFF. APPARENTLY THEY WERE MAKING NOISES BY CRACKING THEIR TOES AND ANKLES, BELIEVE IT OR NOT TO CONVINCE SOMETHING WAS GOING ON. LITTLE BIT OF FALSE KNOWLEDGE GOING ON, THAT YOU CAN INTERPRET PEOPLES' ANKLES CRACKING. SO, LET'S TALK ABOUT HEAVEN. WE TALKED ABOUT IT EARLIER. AND YOU TALKED ABOUT THE IDEA THAT THE LAST SUPPER IS SEEN AS A PREFIGUREMENT OF THE MESSIANIC BANQUET WHICH LOVE IS VICTORIOUS OVER DEATH AND JESUS SEES THIS, ETERNAL STATE IN WHICH WE SEE AND ENJOY EACH OTHER AT A GOOD LOVABLE AND CONVIVIAL BEST. >> Father: YES. YES. IN OTHER WORDS, THAT'S WHY HE USES THE IMAGE OF THE BANQUET. LIKE BABETTE'S FEAST. THESE PEOPLE ARE SORT OF TRANSFORMED AT THIS BANQUET. IF YOU DON'T KNOW THE THOUGHT, BASICALLY, IT'S A TOWN OF FEUDING PEOPLE. AND THIS WOMAN COMES INTO A SMALL FORTUNE. SPENDS IT. AND SHE USED TO BE A CHEF. SO, SHE SPENDS ALL THE MONEY BUYING ALL OF THIS FOOD TO GIVE TO THIS TOWN. AND AS SHE DISTRIBUTES ONE COURSE AFTER THE NEXT AFTER THE NEXT, THESE PEOPLE HAVE NEVER BEEN, IN A SENSE, TREATED SO LOVINGLY, SO GENEROUSLY, WITHOUT ANY EXPECTATIONS, RIGHT? OF RECOMPENSE. SO SHE GIVES ALL THIS OUT. AND THEY COMPLETELY TURN ON A DIME. AND THEY BECOME VERY CONVIVIAL, EVEN THE ENEMIES FROM THE PAST AND SO FORTH. AND AT THE END, SHE'S JUST EXHAUST HAD AND YOU CAN SEE THAD BASICALLY, THE DEATH OF CHRIST ON THE CROSS. SHE GAVE HERSELF COMPLETELY IN SELF SACRIFICE IS THE IMAGE THAT YOU TAKE AWAY FROM IT. BUT WHAT IT DID, IT GAVE THIS MEAL. AND OF COURSE I'M NOT SAYING THAT THIS IS A COMPLETE REPRESENTATION OF THE HOLY EUCHARIST OR THE LAST SUPPER. I'M TRYING TO SAY, THOUGH, WHAT HAPPENS, THE TRANSFORMATION OF JESUS GIVING US HIS REAL BODY AND BLOOD, IN THE LAST SACRAMENT, IN THE LAST SUPPER, WHEN THIS HAPPENS, BASICALLY, IT'S PLOWING RIGHT THROUGH OUR EGOCENTRICITY, PLOWING RIGHT THROUGH OUR DARKNESS. PLOWING RIGHT THROUGH OUR DOMINEERING INSTINCTS. AND BECAUSE IT'S DOING THAT, IT'S GIVING US THE ABILITY TO SEE OTHERS AS THEY TRULY ARE, AS I PUT IT. THEY ARE UNIQUELY LOVEABLE, TRANSCENDENT GOOD SELVES. AND THEY SEE US IN THE SAME WAY. ULTIMATELY, AS WE OVERCOME OUR EGOCENTRICITY, THIS CONVIVIALITY THAT'S PORTRAYED BY THIS MOVIE, BABETTE'S FEAST, PUTS SUCH A MATTER, THE JOY THAT HAPPENS WITH GENUINE LOVE WITHOUT EGO, IT MAKES TIME STAND STILL AS IT WERE. SO, THESE ARE JUST SOME IMAGES OF WHAT HAPPENS. THE HOLY EUCHARIST IS SO POWERFUL. IF WE REALLY KNEW WHAT THAT PHRASE, THE BODY AND BLOOD, THE SOUL AND DIVINITY OF JESUS ALL PRESENT THERE, RIGHT? THE RISEN BODY, DIVINITY OF JESUS ALL PRESENT, I MEAN, THIS IS THE DIVINITY OF THE SON OF GOD THAT WAS PRESENT THROUGH ALL THE AGES WHICH MADE US IS THERE PRESENT. AND IF WE REALLY KNEW WHAT WE WERE TAKING INTO US, IT'S TRANSFORMATIVE POWER IN THE HEART OF JESUS CHRIST WHO LOVES US UNCONDITIONALLY. IF WE REALLY KNEW WHAT IT WAS LIKE TO DO THAT, UNCONDITIONALLY, I MEAN, MY GOSH! WE WOULD ALL BE STANDING IN LINE TO GET INTO CHURCH. WE WOULDN'T BE HAVING ANY DIFFICULTIES GETTING INTO CHURCH. THE PROBLEM OF COURSE IS, WE HAVE TO KNOW IN FAITH. BECAUSE GOD IS NOT GOING TO GIVE US THE REAL VISION. YES, WE DO GET IMAGES THROUGH THESE EUCHARISTIC MIRACLES WHERE A POST CAN TURN INTO A GENUINE PIECE OF HEART TISSUE WHICH COMES FROM THE UPPER VENTRICLE OR SOMETHING, WITH AN AB POSITIVE BLOOD TYPE. OR WE CAN GET IMAGES WHERE THE EUCHARIST IS CARRIED INTO A HOSPITAL ROOM AND THERE'S, BY A PERSON, A DEACON OR SOMETHING, OR A EUCHARISTIC MINISTER COMING TO MINISTER TO THE SICK AND SUDDENLY THE CAMERA PICKS UP A HUGE FLASH OF LIGHT WITH THIS PERSON PASSING BY. SO, WE HAVE A LOT OF GLIMPSE AND IMAGES OF THE POWER OF THE EUCHARIST BUT GOD IS NOT GOING TO BOWL US OVER. THE LORD IS SIMPLY NOT GOING TO GIVE US, AS IT WERE, THE FULL MANIFESTATION. WE COULDN'T TAKE IT QUITE FRANKLY. IT'S JUST AN OVERWHELMING MYSTICAL ENCOUNTER. AS IT WERE. WE COULDN'T TAKE IT. BUT WHEN WE RECEIVED THE EUCHARIST, IT'S JUST AMAZING. WHEN WE RECEIVE THE EUCHARIST WORTHILY. WHAT HAPPENS, PRINCIPALLY AS WE REFLECT OR MORE AND MORE ON IT. >> Doug: WHAT DO WE SAY TO PEOPLE WHERE THEY GO AND SAY, WELL, FIRST OF ALL, IF THAT'S TRUE. AND THAT'S WHAT WE BELIEVE. THEN, WHY AREN'T PEOPLE JUST BEING TRANSFORMED, I MEAN, TO HAVE THIS INTIMATE CONTACT WITH OUR LORD IN THIS INTIMATE WAY? WHY DO WE WALK OUT OF THE CHURCH AND RACE THROUGH THE PARKING LOT OR WHATEVER AND END UP SEEMINGLY JUST AS OBNOXIOUS AS WE WERE WHEN WE WALKED IN? >> Father: BECAUSE QUEUED QUEUED [FOREIGN WORDS] WHATEVER IS RECEIVED IS RECEIVED IN THE MANNER OF THE RECEIVERS. SO, BASICALLY, YOU HAVE THIS, WE HAVE TO BE ABLE, AS IT WERE, TO INTERNALIZE THE GIFT THAT WE HAVE BEEN GIVEN WHICH DEPENDS ON OUR FREE ACT TO DO THAT. HAVE THERE BEEN SAINTS WHO HAD INCREDIBLE FREEDOM AND INCREDIBLE TRANSFORMATION IN THE HEART OF CHRIST WHO HAVE RECEIVED THE EUCHARIST AND YOU KNOW, AS IT WERE, RACED ACROSS THE PARKING LOT. PUT INTO A COMPLETELY MYSTICAL STATE. ABSOLUTELY. YOU CAN'T TELL ME THAT ST. THOMAS AQUINAS DIDN'T HAVE GENUINE MYSTICAL VISIONS THAT SURROUNDED HIS RECEPTION OF THE HOLY EUCHARIST. THIS PERSON WROTE SO BEAUTIFULLY, NOT JUST WRITINGS, BUT HYMNS, SONGS, AND BECOMES PART OF OUR WHOLE CORPUS CHRISTI FEAST. THERE'S SOMETHING GOING ON THERE. AND OF COURSE, WE KNOW THAT HE HAD THE GREAT MYSTICAL VISION WHERE EVERYTHING THAT I HAVE WRITTEN SEEMS AS STRAW, EVERYTHING THAT I HAVE DONE SEEMS AS STRAW WAS HIS LAST COMMENT PRACTICALLY. AND SOMETHING CLEARLY HAPPENED THERE. SO, YES, THERE ARE SAINTS THAT DO HAVE THIS AWARENESS AND THIS ABILITY TO CUT THROUGH IT. BECAUSE OF COURSE, THEY RECEIVE IT IN THE MANNER OF THE RECEIVER WHICH IS A VERY FREE AND VERY TRANSFORMED RECEIVER IN THE HEART OF CHRIST. SO, IN THAT SENSE, THAT'S WHY. NOW, DOES IT HAPPEN SOMETIMES THAT PEOPLE CAN GET WHAT I CALL LITTLE TRANSFORMATIONS, YOU KNOW, BY RECEIVING THE HOLY EUCHARIST ON A REGULAR BASIS. ABSOLUTELY. AND THIS HAPPENED TO ME AND MAYBE I TOLD THIS STORY BEFORE ON "FR. SPITZER'S UNIVERSE," I DON'T KNOW. BUT ANYWAY, WHEN I WAS GOING TO COLLEGE, MY FRIENDS, ONE OF MY FRIENDS, CHALLENGED ME TO GO TO MASS EVERYDAY. YOU KNOW, WHAT ARE YOU DOING FOR LENT. AND I SAID, WELL, I'M GIVING UP MEAT OR SOMETHING. AND HE SAYS, NOT ME, I'M GOING TO MASS EVERYDAY. AND I THOUGHT, YOU KNOW, IF BERT MARTINEZ CAN GO TO MASS EVERYDAY, I CAN GO TO MASS EVERYDAY. SO, I STARTED GOING TO MASS EVERYDAY. NOW, OF COURSE, I WAS LISTENING TO THE HOMILY. I'M SURE THAT HAD A TRANSFORMATIVE EFFECT. OF COURSE, I WAS PRAYING. I'M SURE THAT HAD A TRANSFORMATIVE EFFECT. BUT SOMETHING WAS HAPPENING TO ME BY THAT ONE SIMPLE DAILY PRACTICE. AND PEOPLE, YOU KNOW, BY THE TIME I WAS A JUNIOR, MY SECOND SEMESTER JUNIOR, PEOPLE WERE REALLY TELLING ME, SPITZER, YOU ARE CHANGING. AND I SAY, OH, NO, WHAT DO YOU MEAN I'M CHANGING. AND THEY SAID, YOU USED TO BE A UTILITARIAN BUM AND NOW, YOU ARE JUST A QUASI UTILITARIAN BUM. AND I SAY, NO, NO I'M ALWAYS THE SAME UTILITARIAN BUM I ALWAYS WAS! [LAUGHTER] SO, BASICALLY, I COULDN'T SEE MYSELF CHANGING. BUT EVERYBODY ELSZ COULD SEE -- ELSE WERE COULD THAT I WAS CHANGING. THERE WAS A SENSITIVITY THERE. BUT I PROBABLY SHOULDN'T SAY THIS, BUT MY HIGH SCHOOL YEAR BOOK, SOMEBODY WROTE IN THERE, DOES NOT SUFFER FOOLS GLADLY. MAYBE I HAD THE -- >> Doug: I THINK THAT'S FUNNY! [LAUGHTER] >> Father: BUT YOU GOT TO ADMIT, THAT'S KIND OF A CONDEMNATION WRIT LARGE, RIGHT? I WAS PROBABLY NOT THE NICEST GUY TO GET ALONG WITH. >> Doug: CHARITY WAS NOT YOUR NUMBER ONE THING. >> Father: RIGHT, CHARITY WAS NOT THE NUMBER ONE THING GOING ON. SOMETHING WAS HAPPENING AND I ATTRIBUTED IT IN SO MANY WAYS TO THE HOLY EUCHARIST. FRANKLY, BEING A PRIEST WAS THE FURTHEREST THING FROM MY MIND, AS A SOPHOMORE IN COLLEGE. I MEAN, IT WAS NOT THERE. SOMETHING WAS HAPPENING TO ME. AND WHILE THIS TRANSFORMATION WAS GOING ON, I WAS BECOMING PROGRESSIVELY MORE FASCINATED BY SCRIPTURE. PROGRESSIVELY MORE FASCINATED BY ST. THOMAS AQUINAS AND BY DOCTRINE AND T THEOLOGY. MY RELIGION WAS BECOMING THE CENTER OF MY LIFE. I WAS SO ADDICTED TO THE MASS, I COULDN'T STOP. THEN, I BEGAN HAVING THESE THOUGHTS ABOUT HAVING A PRIEST. AND LOOK AT WHAT HAPPENED TO ME! I GOT TO TELL YOU, THE HOLY EUCHARIST DOES HAVE TRANSFORMATIVE EFFECTS. BUT IT'S LIKE GOING ON A DIET. THE SPITZER IRAN DIETER, YOU GET ON THE SCALE EVERY 10 MINUTES AND YOU SAY, I'M NOT LOSING ANY WEIGHT. AND YOU DON'T NOTICE ANYTHING. BUT IF YOU WAIT A WEEK, THEN YOU START SEEING A CHANGE. OR IN THE CASE OF THE HOLY EUCHARIST TRANSFORMING YOUR SOUL, YOU ARE GOING, GETTING A LITTLE FREER AND YOU ARE BECOMING MORE OPEN TO THE GRACE OF THE EUCHARIST. >> Doug: WHEN YOU WENT THROUGH THIS, DID YOU ULTIMATELY FEEL PULLED AT SOME POINT, IN A SENSE TO GO TO MASS AND TO DO THESE THINGS. LIKE YOU ALMOST FELT THAT LEVEL OF ATTRACTION? >> Father: OH, YEAH. BY THE TIME I WAS LITERALLY, BY THE END OF LENT, 40 DAYS, I HAVE TO TELL YOU, ALREADY, LENT IS OVER. I'M GOING TO CONTINUE TO GO TO MASS. I KNEW. I WAS HOOKED. AND SO, I WAS DEFINITELY PULLED IN. I MEAN, THE LORD WAS REELING ME IN LIKE A BIG OLE SALMON. AND OF COURSE, I WAS ALL TOO WILLING TO BE REELED IN. SOMETHING WAS CHANGING IN ME. AND I FELT SO AT HOME. YOU KNOW, WHEN I TALK ABOUT COSMIC EMPTINESS, ALIEN YATION AND LONELINESS, I HAD A LOT OF THAT AS A SOPHOMORE AND PROBABLY AS A JUNIOR BUT REALLY A LOT AS A FRESHMAN AS WELL. BUT I DIDN'T KNOW WHAT I WAS FEELING. I KNEW THERE WAS SOMETHING NOT AT HOME HERE. BUT AS I BEGAN TO GO TO MASS, MORE AND MORE OFTEN, THAT FEELING OF NOT BEING AT HOME WHAT I NOW CALL A SENSE OF DEEP COSMIC EMPTINESS, DEEP COSMIC ALIENATION AND EMPTINESS. THAT STARTED TO SUBSIDE AND WHAT I FELT IN ITS PLACE. AT THAT TIME, I WOULDN'T HAVE SAID, OH, THAT'S THE PRESENCE OF THE LORD. BUT WHAT I DID FEEL, I FELT AT HOME WITH EVERYTHING INCLUDING GOD. THAT I WAS LESS AND LESS ALIENATED AND LESS AND LESS DIVORCED OR LONELY FROM WHAT WAS OF ULTIMATE SIGNIFICANCE AND WHAT WAS OF ULTIMATE RELATIONSHIP IN MY LIFE. AND I KNEW SOMETHING GOOD WAS GOING ON. I WAS HOOKED. AND I WASN'T GOING TO STOP BECAUSE I DIDN'T WANT THAT SENSE OF HOME, THAT SENSE OF ULTIMATE SIGNIFICANCE, AND ULTIMATE RELATIONSHIP. I DIDN'T WANT TO LOSE IT. SO, I JUST KEPT RIGHT ON GOING. AND BOY, YOU KNOW, HE GOT RIGHT TO MY HEART. IT'S LIKE THE HOLY SPIRIT HAS HIS WAY. ONCE YOU LET HIM IN, HE BURROS IN EVEN DEEPER AND THEN YOU LET HIM IN EVEN MORE DEEPLY. YOU KNOW, IT JUST KEEPS ON GOING UNTIL FINALLY, I WENT TO THE BACK OF A CHURCH ONE DAY. I WAS LOOKING AT THESE PAMPHLETS. AND I SAW A PAMPHLETS ON BEING A PRIEST. AND I SAID, OH, WHAT'S THIS. NOW, WOULD I HAVE DONE THAT A YEAR AND A HALF EARLIER? NO WAY. I MEAN, I WOULD HAVE GLAZED RIGHT OVER THAT BABY IN NO TIME AT ALL. BUT I DIDN'T. WHAT I DID, I LOOKED AT IT. AND IT WAS VERY INTERESTING. AND AS I KEPT PAYING THROUGH IT, IT -- PAGING THROUGH IT, YOU KNOW, IT BECAME MORE INTERESTING. AND IT WAS LIKE ONE OF THESE OUT OF DATE BOOKS, YOU KNOW, PRE VATICAN II. BUT EVERYTHING IN THERE WAS TRANS FIXING TO ME. AND I THOUGHT, MAYBE, GOSH, MAYBE I'M CALLED. NO, NO, NO. I'M MEANT TO BE A LAWYER. FOARLGT THAT. BUT I'LL TAKE THIS BOOK WITH ME. IT'S A QUARTER. SO, I TOOK IT WITH ME. AND I COULDN'T BELIEVE THAT I PAID FOR IT. BECAUSE I KNEW A YEAR BEFORE, I WOULDN'T HAVE PAID A QUARTER FOR IT. BUT I DID. AND I TOOK IT HOME. AND I BEGAN TO LOOK AT THE THING. AND I WAS BEING, AS YOU PUT IT, DRAWN IN. I WAS BEING PULLED IN. AND LIKE I SAID, THE REST IS HISTORY. I GOT TO MY SECOND SEMESTER OF MY SENIOR YEAR. I WAS GOING TO AN ACCOUNTING FIRM. AND I JUST WON'T TELL YOU THE WHOLE STORY BUT BASICALLY, I GOT CAUGHT IN A RAIN STORM AND I DEDUCED THAT, YOU KNOW, MAYBE I'M BEING CALLED TO SERVE GOD AS A PRIEST. BOY WAS THAT RIGHT. WHEN I FINALLY HAD THE FREEDOM TO SAY, OKAY. I'M GOING TO START INVESTIGATING THIS. GOD THEN, HE JUST YANKED. I MEAN, NO KIDDING WITH REAL SPIRITUAL CONSOLATION, YANKED ME RIGHT ON IN. >> Doug: GOOD. AND WE'RE HAPPY THAT HE DID THAT. YOU JUMPED AHEAD WHEN WE WERE TALKING ABOUT THE KINGDOM OF JOHN AND PAUL. UAND YOU MENTIONED THAT. AND YOU TALKED ABOUT THE IMAGE, WHEN WE'RE IMMERSED IN THE PERFECT LOVE OF THE TRINITY AND THOSE IN HEAVEN NO AIL YEBATION OF SELF OR OTHERS, NO DARKNESS, NO LONELINESS, NO PAIN THAT ARISING OUT OF EGOCENTRICITY OR NARCISSISM WHERE IT DOVETAILS IN, MILDLY AS YOU TALKED ABOUT IT BEFORE. BUT HEAVEN IS ANYTHING BUT BORING. IT'S EXUDING ALL AT THE HIGHEST LEVELS OF JOY AND ECSTASY, NOT LACKLUSTER, BUT COMPLETE SATISFACTORY BUT THE OVERWHELMING SATISFACTION FOR DESIRE FOR BEAUTY, LOVE, AND GOODNESS. >> Father: YEAH, THAT'S ABSOLUTELY CORRECT. I WROTE THAT OUT OF MY EXPERIENCES OF GOD OVERCOMING THAT COSMIC ALIENIATION AND LONELINESS REPLACING IT WITH HIS PRESENCE, GOODNESS, HIS GOODNESS, HIS LOVE AND HIS HOME. THAT'S WHAT STARTED TO HAPPEN. AND CONTINUES TO HAPPEN. THAT'S WHAT A PRAYER LIFE DOES. RIGHT? SHOWS YOU JOY AND SOMETIMES YOU HAVE TO STRUGGLE AS YOU START YOUR PRAYER LIFE. OF COURSE, BOY, WHEN YOU START YOUR PRAYER LIFE. YOU CAN BE SURE THAT THE DEVIL IS RIGHT THERE, ON YOUR CASE. EVERY TEMPTATION YOU EVER HAD, YOU KNOW, IF IT'S A TEMPTATION TOWARD ANGER, DOUBLE IT. AND IF IT'S A TEMPTATION TOWARD ENVY, DOUBLE IT. YOU KNOW, WHAT REALLY HAPPENS, THE DEVIL WANTS TO WORK YOU OVER TIME AND TRY TO GET YOU DRAWN IN SO YOU ARE DISTRACTED AND YOU ARE NOT GOING TO EXPERIENCE BEING WITH THE LORD OR WITH THE BLESSED MOTHER, EXPERIENCING, RIGHT, TRYING TO GET MORE AND MORE OF A PURE AND PURER EXPERIENCE OF THE LORD'S LOVE AND BEAUTY AND OF THE PURITY OF THE BLESSED MOTHER AND HER CONSOLATION AND GOODNESS. SO, HE'S BEATING YOU UP. BUT DON'T GET DISCOURAGED BECAUSE, YOU HAVE TO DO THIS IN YOUR FREEDOM. BUT AS YOU DO THIS IN YOUR FREEDOM, I WANT YOU TO KNOW, EVENTUALLY IT GETS EASIER AND EASIER. THE TEMPTATIONS DO SUBSIDE AND YOU DO GET THAT EXPERIENCE OF THE BLESSED MOTHER. YOU DO GET THAT EXPERIENCE OF THE LORD IN, KIND OF A PURE WAY WHICH IS A PEACE. IT IS HOME. IT IS A JOY. AND IT IS A GOODNESS AND LOVE. AND IT IS SOMETHING THAT YOU ARE GOING TO BE PULLED INTO MORE AND MORE. BUT YOU SORT OF HAVE TO GO THROUGH THAT TRIBULATION PART WHERE YOU CHOOSE YOUR FREEDOM, I WANT THIS MORE THAN THIS. >> Doug: AND I WANT TO ASK YOU THIS IN JUST THE MINUTE OR TWO BEFORE WE GO. AND IT DOES SEEM THAT THE DEVIL KNOWS YOUR WEAK POINTS. WHEN YOU TRY TO GO IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION, HE HITS YOU AND CUTS YOU RIGHT AT YOUR KNEES THAT YOU KNOW YOU ARE AT YOUR WEAKEST. WHAT WAS THAT FOR YOU? >> Father: I THINK IT WAS ABOUT THREE DIFFERENT THINGS. FOR ME, I'M VERY ARROGANT. I STILL AM. AND I MUST ADMIT THAT I DON'T WANT TO BE BUT I KNOW ONE THING. HE CAN GET ME THERE FOR SURE. YOU KNOW, IF THAT DOESN'T WORK, YOU KNOW, HE CAN GET ME RESENTING SOMEBODY FOR WHATEVER. IT COULD HAVE BEEN SOMETHING THAT HAPPENED 10 YEARS AGO. OF COURSE, THE IMAGINATION CLICKS OFF. AND IF HE CAN'T GET ME THERE, HE SURELY GETS A CHASTITY THING GOING. THAT ALWAYS DISTRACTS ME, AT LEAST FOR A WHILE. AND IF HE CAN'T GET ME THERE, THEN PROBABLY, YOU KNOW, IT'S A LOSING BATTLE BECAUSE I MEAN, I'M NOT GOING TO BE DRAWN INTO SLOTH VERY MUCH. AND HONESTLY, ENVY IS NOT MY BIG DEAL. BUT OF COURSE, PERHAPS THINKING ABOUT A FINE GLASS OF WINE AND A CIGAR, THAT COULD DO IT. >> Doug: I WAS GOING TO SAY, YOU KNOW, IF YOU FEEL THAT GOOD ABOUT YOURSELF, WHO COULD YOU BE ENVIOUS OF? [LAUGHTER] >> Father: SO TRUE! SO TRUE! I MEAN, THIS IS THE DIFFICULTY OF THE SPIRITUAL LIFE. AND BY THE WAY, EVERY MYSTIC, GOING BY THAT QUESTION, EVERY MYSTIC HAS GONE THROUGH THIS. I MEAN, IF YOU READ THE WORKS OF SAINT JOHN OF THE CROSS, YOU LOOK AT THE DARK NIGHT OF THE SOUL, IT'S FRAUGHT WITH THOSE TEMPTATIONS. WHAT ARE THE TEMPTATIONS? THE DEVIL KNOWS YOUR WEAK SPOTS, KABLAMO. AND YOU WILL GET THROUGH IT. YOU WILL GET THROUGH THE DARK NIGHT OF THE SOUL, DARK NIGHT OF THE SPIRIT. AND YOU WILL GET THROUGH THOSE THINGS. I TELL YOU, YOU WILL BE HOOKED ON THE BLESSED MOTHER AND HOOKED ON THE LORD. AND YOU ARE NOT GOING BACK UNLESS YOU HAVE A CATACLYSMIC FALL OF PRIDE. BUT YOU ARE ON YOUR WAY. AND THAT REALLY IS ITS OWN REWARD. AND REALLY HONESTLY A LITTLE TASTE OF HEAVEN. IT'S NOTHING COMPARED TO THE REAL THING. SO, IF YOU LIKE THE LITTLE TASTE AND I ASSURE YOU, YOU WILL OR YOU DO, IF YOU KNOW WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT. BURT BOY WHEN YOU HIT THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN, I'M TELLING YOU NOW. ALL THAT PURGATION IS WORTH IT. >> Doug: WELL, THAT'S AT PERFECT TEASE FOR NEXT WEEK. SO, FINISH THIS UP AND PLEASE, GIVE US YOUR BLESSING ON THE WAY OUT THE DOOR. >> Father: ABSOLUTELY. BOW YOUR HEADS AND PRAY FOR GOD'S BLESSING. AND MAY THE LORD OF ALL CONSOLATION, THE LORD WHO DESIRES TO BRING YOU INTO THE FULLNESS OF HIS LIGHT, HIS JOY, HIS PEACE, AND HIS LOVE, DESCEND UPON YOU AND DRAW YOU OUT OF COSMIC EMPTINESS, ALIENATION AND LONELINESS INTO THE FULLNESS OF HIS GOOD AND LIGHT. IN THE NAME OF THE FATHER, AND OF THE SON, AND OF THE HOLY SPIRIT. AMEN. >> THANK YOU SO MUCH FATHER. WE'LL SEE YOU NEXT WEEK. AND HOPEFULLY AS WELL, WE'LL SEE ALL OF OUR VIEWERS NEXT WEEK. DON'T DPOARGT FATHER SPITZER WONDERFUL BOOKS AS YOU SEE ON THE SCREEN, FROM THE EWTN RELIGIOUS CATALOGS. JUST A SMALL SAMPLE AND VIDEOS AS WELL. DON'T FORGET WE'RE GOING TO FEATURE THE CLOSING MASS OF THE BIRMINGHAM CONGRESS, BISHOP BAKER, WE'LL MISS HIM. BUT SATURDAY JUNE 29, 5:00 EASTERN TIME, WE'LL CARRY THAT MASS LIVE. NEXT WEEK, WE'RE GOING TO COVER PART THREE OF HEAVEN AND TALKING A LITTLE BIT OF HELL AFTER THAT. DON'T FORGET, FROM MY SHOW, WE HAVE BOOK MARK WITH FATHER JOSEPH PANESSA AND WE'RE TALKING ABOUT THE COME AND SEE BIBLE SERIES STUDY ON MATTHEW AND LUKE. THANK YOU SO MUCH. WE'LL SEE YOU NEXT TIME RIGHT HERE AT THE INTERSECTION OF FAITH AND REASON. JUST FOLLOW THE SIGNS, AS C.S. LEWIS SAYS! WE'LL SEE YOU NEXT TIME. ♪
