♪ >> Doug: WELCOME ONCE AGAIN TO THE INTERSECTION OF FAITH AND REASON AT "FR. SPITZER'S UNIVERSE." WE'RE LOCATED HERE AT THE EWTN STUDIOS, MOTHERSHIP IRONDALE, ALABAMA AND MOTHER ANGELICA START THIS HAD ALL AND THANKS TO HER PRAYERS AND YOUR PRAYERFUL SUPPORT AS WELL. WE DEPEND ON YOUR FEEDBACK FOR THIS SHOW BUT SPECIFICALLY, SEND US QUESTIONS, EMAIL US, FIND US ON TWITTER, GO TO THE magiscenter.com AND FOR THIS PARTICULAR SHOW, IT'S crediblecatholic.com. FATHER CAN'T CONTAIN ALL OF HIS WISDOM IN ONE WEB SITE SO HE HAS MULTIPLE WEB SITE! SO, SPEAKING OF WISDOM, WE HAVE A WONDERFUL BOOK COMING OUT FROM EWTN PUBLISHING, BEEN OUT ABOUT A MONTH OR SO, FATHER CHARLES CONNOR. ANYBODY EVER WATCHED THE SERIES HE HAS DONE FOR US, OVER THE YEARS AND IT'S A BOOK, FAITH AND FURY, RISE OF CATHOLICISM DURING THE CIVIL WAR. AND THERE WAS FREDERICKSBURG ON BOTH SIDES AT MARY'S HEIGHT. SO, CHECK OUT THE BOOK, BY THE ONE AND ONLY FATHER CHARLES CONNOR AVAILABLE THROUGH RELIGIOUS CATALOG, ewtnRC.com. AND IT'S A GREAT PLACE FOR ALL THINGS CATHOLIC AND INCLUDING ONE AND ONLY FATHER SPITZER WHO WE JOIN ON THE WEST COAST. AND WE WANT TO BE SURE THAT WE DON'T FORGET ABOUT THE WONDERFUL BOOKS YOU HAVE. AND SO MANY IN THE PIPELINE YOU CAN'T FIT THEM ALL THROUGH AT THE SAME TIME, THINK. >> RIGHT. NO, THE IGNATIUS PRESS HAS A SLUG OF THEM AND PRETTY SOON THEY ARE ALL COMING OUT. >> AND WE HAVE THE NAPA INSTITUTE EVENT COMING UP IN JULY. YOU ARE GOING TO BE THERE SO IT'S AN ATTRACTION. BUT WE'RE GOING TO DO AN EPISODE OF "FR. SPITZER'S UNIVERSE" FROM THERE. AND IT'S EXCITING TO ME THAT THEY ARE GOING TO LET ME IN THE BUILDING! >> Father: THAT'S RIGHT. THEY HAVE BEEN BEGGING YOU TO COME FOR YEARS. >> THAT'S JUST BECAUSE I'M GETTING IN ON YOUR TICKET, YOUR COATTAIL. WITH THAT BEING SAID, LET'S START OFF WITH A PRAYER. >> YOU BET. IN THE NAME OF THE FATHER, SON, AND HOLY SPIRIT. AMEN. HEAVENLY FATHER, WE GIVE YOU THANKS FOR YOUR MANY BLESSINGS TO US, ESPECIALLY THE BLESSING OF THIS MINISTRY, BLESSING OF THIS AUDIENCE AND WE ASK YOU, LORD, SEND YOUR HOLY SPIRIT DOWN UPON US THIS DAY TO INSPIRE US, GUIDE US, PROTECT US, WATCH OVER THE AUDIENCE AS WELL AND PLEASE, LORD, BRING EVERYTHING THAT WE SAY AND DO FOR THE FRUITION OF YOUR WILL, FOR THE GOOD OF YOUR CHURCH, YOUR WILL AND YOUR KINGDOM THROUGH JESUS CHRIST OUR LORD. AMEN. AND MARY, SEAT OF WISDOM, PRAY FOR US. >> IN THE NAME OF THE FATHER AND OF THE SON AND OF THE HOLY SPIRIT. AMEN. >> Doug: OKAY. FATHER, ARE YOU READY FOR QUESTIONS FROM DIFFERENT TOPICS AND DIFFERENT SHOWS. THINK THIS IS SOMEBODY WHO JUST HAD A QUESTION IN GENERAL. DEAR FATHER SPITZER, SOME CHURCHES IN CALIFORNIA HAVE AZTEC-LIKE DANCERS DURING THE MASS. AT A RECENT CONGRESS, A GROUP WAS EVEN GREETING OTHERS BY THE NAME OF A SUN GOD. WE ALL HAVE PAGAN FOREBEARERS, BUT CHRIST HAS WON FOR US A NAME ABOVE ALL OTHERS BY HIS RESURRECTION. ARE THESE INSTANCES RANDOM OR DO LOCAL BISHOPS HAVE TO APPROVE IT? WHAT WOULD IT TAKE TO STOP THIS? TOM. >> Father: WELL, TWO PARTS TO THE QUESTION. FIRST OF ALL, I CAN TELL YOU, THAT NO BISHOP WOULD APPROVE ANYBODY GREETING EACH OTHER IN TERMS OF THE SUN GOD. THAT IS PRETTY MUCH NOT ONLY JUST A HERESY BUT IT IS UTTERLY MISLEADING SINCE, OF COURSE, THIS PARTICULAR ASSOCIATION OF GOD WITH THE SUN WAS PRETTY MUCH PUT ASIDE BY GENESIS, WAY IN THE SIXTH CENTURY B.C. AND NO SUCH ASSOCIATION LEFT ANY MORE. THE MONOTHEISM OF ISRAEL IS MUCH MORE SOPHISTICATED THAN AN ADVANCED FORM OF MONOTHEISTIC FORM OF WORSHIP. AND THAT WAS HANDLED WAY BACK IN SIXTH CENTURY B.C. AND PEOPLE SHOULDN'T BE DOING THAT. NO BISHOP WOULD APPROVE THAT AND OBVIOUSLY IS CONTRARY TO THE CHURCH. NOW, LITURGICAL DANCING, I THINK THAT'S WHAT YOU WERE SAYING, MAYBE AZTEC DANCING AT MASS, FOR THE LITURGY. WELL, YEAH, AS I RECALL, THERE WAS A DOCUMENT IN 1975, PUT OUT BY THE PONTIFICAL COUNCIL OF, FOR SACRAMENTS AND DIVINE WORSHIP, THE PONTIFICAL COUNCIL APPOINTED TO OVERSEE LITURGIES AND SACRAMENTS, ET CETERA. AND THAT PONTIFICAL COUNCIL IN 1975 SAID BASICALLY IN THE WEST, LITURGICAL DANCING WAS NOT PERMITTED. SO, FOR EXAMPLE, IN A PARTICULAR CULTURE THAT HAD LITURGICAL DANCING AS PART OF ITS OWN WORSHIP AND SO FORTH MAY BE INCORPORATED, AN ENCULTURATION MAYBE, BUT IN THE WEST, PRETTY MUCH LITURGICAL DANCING WAS THOUGHT TO BE BOTH A SPECTACLE AND YOU DON'T REALLY WANT THAT DURING THE LITURGY. YOU DON'T WANT A THEATER EVENT GOING ON. WHAT YOU REALLY WANT IS FOCUS ON WHAT'S HAPPENING IN THE SACRIFICE OF THE MASS AND JESUS EUCHARISTIC WORDS, THE RECEPTION OF THE EUCHARIST, AND THE WORD OF GOD. THAT'S WHERE YOU WANT THE FOCUS, NOT ON A SPECTACLE GOING ON ON THE SIDE. AND BY THE WAY, THERE'S NORMS FOR LITURGICAL MUSIC. YOU DON'T WANT CONCERTS EITHER FOR THE VERY SAME REASON. AND LITURGICAL DANCING IS ACTUALLY AUDITORY AND SPECTACLE KIND OF THICK GOING ON AND THEY DIDN'T WANT THAT BECAUSE IT'S A DISTRACTION FROM THE MAIN PART OF THE MASS. AND ACTUALLY, IT WAS PROHIBITED. I'M SURE THAT ANY BISHOP COULD GIVE A SPECIAL PERMISSION TO DO SOME KIND OF LITURGICAL DANCING WHICH MAY BE WITHIN THE PURVIEW OF THE BISHOP TO GIVE AN EXEMPTION. BUT BY AND LARGE, THAT WOULD BE HIGHLY UNUSUAL SINCE THERE'S A DIRECT PROHIBITION IN THE SACRIFICE OF THE MASS AND DIVINE WORSHIP. BASICALLY, THAT'S THE ANSWER. THEY SHOULDN'T BE DOING IT. AND IF THEY ARE DOING IT, THEY SURE SHOULD HAVE AN EXEMPTION FROM THE BISHOP WHO WOULD HAVE TO GET SOME FORM OF EXEMPTION FROM THE PONTIFICAL COMMISSION ITSELF. >> AND AS YOU INDICATED, AS OPPOSED TO OTHER PARTS OF THE WORLD, MAYBE IT WAS A NATURAL EXPRESSION AS PART OF THE CULTURE, BUT SINCE THESE ARE BEING TRANSPORTED INTO THE WEST AND BEING ADDED IN ALMOST AS ACCRETIONS, THEY DIDN'T REALLY FIT IN. OKAY. UP NEXT. DEAR FATHER SPITZER, DESPITE ALL OF THE RECENT DISCUSSION, I AM STILL VERY CONFLICTED ON THE TOPIC OF ABORTION. OKAY. I ACCEPT THE POSITION THAT WE AS CATHOLICS ARE PRO-LIFE AND AGAINST ABORTION. BUT I ALSO BELIEVE THAT NO ONE SHOULD HAVE AUTHORITY OVER A WOMAN'S BODY. HOW CAN I JUSTIFY THESE POSITIONS WHILE ALSO BEING A DEVOUT CATHOLIC? THAT'S A GOOD QUESTION. I WOULD LOVE TO HEAR YOUR THOUGHTS. >> Father: WELL, LET'S JUST START FROM THE VERY BEGINNING. NOW, ABORTION IS THE KILLING OF AN INNOCENT HUMAN BEING. I THINK WE COULD ESTABLISH PRETTY CLEARLY, FIRST NOTICING THAT THE HUMAN ZYGOTE, EVEN SINGLE-CELLED ZYGOTE THAT IS NOT YET ATTACHED, RIGHT. THAT BEING IS STILL A UNIQUE, GENETIC PACKAGE, RIGHT? AND NOTICE THE FOLLOWING THREE THINGS. IT HAS MITOCHONDRIAL DNA. IT'S HUMAN, RIGHT THERE. THAT'S THE EVE GENE IF WE CAN PUT IT THAT WAY. IT'S THE REMNANT GENE FROM OUR COMMON MOTHER. THAT AUTOMATICALLY MAKES IT A HUMAN BEING AND NOT SOMETHING ELSE. SO, NOT ONLY IS IT HOMO SAPIEN SAPIENS, BUT IT IS ALSO PRETTY MUCH THE GENETIC LINEAGE OF WHAT WE CALL MITOCHONDRIAL EVE AND THAT MAKES HIM OR HER HUMAN. SECONDLY, THE GENETIC PACKAGE IS COMPLETELY DETERMINED, A COMPLETE GENETIC PACKAGE IF WE DID SINGLE SEQUENCING FROM THE SINGLE ZYGOTE WE COULD GET A PRETTY ACCURATE PRO FILE OF THAT ZYGOTE, WHAT HE OR SHE WOULD LOOK LIKE, STRENGTHS, BODILY STRENGTHS OR WEAKNESSES WE CAN'T TELL THE SPIRITUAL STRENGTHS AND WEAKNESSES BECAUSE THAT'S REDUCIBLE ONLY TO THE SOUL OF THAT HUMAN BEING. BUT THE SECOND THING IS, CLEARLY NOT ONLY IS THIS A HUMAN BEING, IT'S A UNIQUE HUMAN BEING. THERE WILL BE NO OTHER HUMAN BEING LIKE THAT WHOEVER LIVED OR WHOEVER WILL LIVE. SO, THE GENETIC PACKAGE IS COMPLETE AND IT'S RECEPTIVE TO THE EPI GENETIC PACKAGE THAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN WITH THE DEVELOPMENT OF THE EMBRYO. SO, WE SAY WITH CERTAINTY THAT THIS IS A UNIQUE HUMAN BEING IN POTENTIO. THAT DOESN'T MEAN THAT IT'S A POTENTIAL HUMAN BEING, NO. IT MEANS IT'S A COMPLETE, ACTUAL HUMAN BEING WHO HAS GOT EVERYTHING REQUIRED TO DEVELOP INTO WHAT WE CALL A MATURE HUMAN BEING THROUGHOUT THE CYCLE MOTHER'S EMBRYONIC, THE CHILD'S EMBRYONIC STAGES IN THE MOTHER'S WOMB. NOW, ALL OF THAT IS PRESENT FOR SURE. NOW, AS CATHOLICS, WE SAY, WE KNOW THAT THIS BEING IS NOT JUST EMBODIMENT. IT'S NOT JUST A GENETIC PACKAGE. IT'S NOT JUST A BRAIN AND SO FORTH AND SO ON. WE ALSO KNOW THAT IT HAS A SOUL. NOW, THERE'S VERY GOOD RATIONAL EVIDENCE THAT WE'VE TALKED ABOUT, IN PREVIOUS SHOWS AND WE CAN TALK ABOUT IT IN OTHER SHOWS BUT I JUST WANT TO GIVE YOU FIVE REASONS TO BELIEVE, FROM A RATIONAL IN POINT OF VIEW, NOT JUST THE CHURCH OR FAITH POINT OF VIEW THAT THE HUMAN BEING HAS A SOUL. AND THESE THINGS ARE ACCESSIBLE TO OTHER SCIENTISTS AND WE HAVE PEER-REVIEWED STUDIES OF NEAR DEATH EXPERIENCES THAT SHOWS THAT A PERSON'S CONSCIOUSNESS SURVIVES BODILY DEATH. NOT ONLY THAT, BUT WILL BE ABLE TO SEE, REMEMBER, HEAR AND HAVE ALL OF THEIR MEMORIES INTACT, ET CETERA, ET CETERA. THAT THAT UNIQUE HUMAN BEING'S CONSCIOUSNESS IS GOING TO SURVIVE BODILY DEATH. AND BY THE WAY YOU CAN PROVE IT BECAUSE 81% OF THE BLIND PEOPLE SEE FOR THE FIRST TIME WHEN THEY ARE CLINICALLY DEAD. AND YOU CAN'T GIVE A PHYSICAL EXPLANATION FOR THAT. SECONDLY, WE HAVE EXCELLENT STUDIES WHICH ARE GETTING BETTER AND BETTER, MEDICAL STUDIES. PHENOMENON CALLED TERMINAL LUCIDITY. PEOPLE HAVE, WELL, LET'S JUST SAY, VERY LITTLE BRAIN SUBSTANCE LEFT. THEY HAVE SEVERELY ATROPHIED CEREBRAL CORTEX MAKING THEM INCAPABLE OF THOUGHT ON ANY COMPLEX LEVEL AND WE WOULD SAY, THEIR CONSCIOUSNESS IS NOT GOING TO BE MANIFEST THROUGH THEIR BRAINS. YET WE KNOW THAT ONE HOUR OR SO BEFORE THEY DIE, THEY CAN WAKE UP, AND THEY CAN BE AS ABSOLUTELY LUCID AS YOU AND ME WITHOUT 95% OF THEIR BRAIN OR WITH 95% OF THEIR BRAIN BEING COMPLETELY ENTANGLED BY AMYLOID PROTEINS, LIKE, SAY, SOMETHING LIKE ALZHEIMER'S OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT. BUT FOR ALL INTENSIVE PURPOSES, NON FUNCTIONAL BRAIN AND PERFECTLY CONSCIOUS LUCID HUMAN BEING. YOU TELL ME HOW THAT HAPPENS. I WOULD SAY IT'S THE SAME EXPLANATION AS NEAR DEATH EXPERIENCES. AND THIRDLY, YOU HAVE WHAT'S CALLED GERTALL'S PROOF. AND WE DON'T DO IT LIKE ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE AND YOU CAN SHOW THAT BY SHOWING HOW HUMAN BEINGS ACTUALLY LEAP FORWARD BEYOND ANY PASSIVE ALGORITHMS TO BE ABLE TO FIND NEW THEORUMS THAT DO THAT. COMPUTERS DON'T DO THAT. WE DO THAT. WE HAVE TO ASK, HOW DO WE DO THAT. AND WE SAY THROUGH SOME SORT OF TRANSCENDENT INTELLIGENCE. AND THEN WE HAVE DAVID CHALMERS BIG STUDY. FOURTH THING THERE. AND ABOUT THE SELF CONSCIOUS AND THE INNER WORLD OF HUMAN BEINGS NOT BEING REDUCIBLE TO PHYSICAL PROCESSES. DAVID CHALMERS IS SOMEBODY TO BE REALLY CONTENDED WITH BECAUSE HE IS, AFTER ALL, ONE OF THE PRIMARY PHILOSOPHERS OF MIND IN THE COUNTRY TODAY. HE HAS A VERY, YOU KNOW, VERY PRESTIGIOUS CHAIR AT CAMBRIDGE AND THAT'S AN IMPORTANT SET OF STUDIES. I HAVE A WHOLE BUNCH OF REASONS AND IT'S IN A BOOK CALLED, THE SOUL'S UPWARD YEARNING. GO TO IGNATIUS PRESS. AND IF YOU WANT TO GET A WHOLE SET OF FREE DATA, GO TO crediblecatholic.com. CLICK ON THE BIG BOOK. THEN CLICK ON VOLUME 2. EVERYTHING IS THERE, IN 200 PAGES, I HAVE ALL OF THOSE RATIONAL STUDIES FOR THE SOUL SUMMARIZED. NOW, GETTING BACK TO YOUR QUESTION. NUMBER ONE, YOU HAVE MITOCHONDRIAL DNA. NUMBER TWO, UNIQUE, HUMAN GENETIC PACKAGE PRESENT AND DEVELOPING. NUMBER THREE, YOU HAVE A SOUL WHICH WE CAN VALIDATE THROUGH OTHER RATIONAL MEANS, EMPIRICAL MEANS BESIDES, THAT SURVIVES BODILY DEATH THAT WE THINK IS PRESENT FROM THE MOMENT OF CONCEPTION. AND THAT SOUL IS ACTUALLY INSTRUMENTAL IN BRINGING TOGETHER THE GENETIC COMPONENTS OF THE BRAIN THAT CONSCIOUSNESS, YOU KNOW, I CALL IT A TRANS-PHYSICAL CONSCIOUSNESS IS DEVELOPING AND INTEGRATING ITSELF WITH OUR PHYSICAL BRAIN IN THE EMBRYONIC DEVELOPMENT THROUGHOUT THESE VARIOUS STAGES. SO THOSE ARE THREE REASONS FOR BELIEVING, WHAT YOU HAVE HERE IS A REAL HUMAN BEING AND REAL TRANSCENDENT SOUL AND YOU CAN'T GO AROUND AND KILL IT. >> Doug: WELL, FATHER, YOU SAY THAT, BECAUSE YOU BELIEVE THERE'S A SOUL. I DON'T BELIEVE IN SOULS. I JUST BELIEVE THEY ARE PEOPLE. BUT CAN'T WE MAKE THE CASE, EVEN IF YOU DIDN'T BELIEVE IN THE SOUL FROM FROM A BIOLOGICAL, SIMPLE THING, A CHILD IS STILL A HUMAN BEING AND THE HUMAN BEING IS NOT THE WOMAN'S BODY, IS IT? >> Father: YOU CAN'T REDUCE IT TO THE WOMAN'S BODY. IT'S A COMPLETELY SEPARATE IDENTITY, NOT ONLY PHYSICAL IDENTITY BUT IT HAS A PSYCHIC IDENTITY IN UTERO. SO, THINK THERE'S VERY GOOD REASONS FOR SUSPECTING THIS RATIONALLY, NOT JUST IN TERMS OF A SPIRITUAL ARGUMENT. SO, I DO THINK THAT HUMAN BEING IS UTTERLY DISTINCT, NOT JUST GENETICALLY. UTTERLY DISTINCT NOT JUST PHYSICALLY. UTTERLY DISTINCT, THOUGH INDEPENDENT FROM THE MOTHER FOR IDENTITY AS AS WELL. SO, ALL OF THESE THINGS MAKE THE HUMAN BEING A SEPARATE HUMAN BEING THAT IS DESERVING OF PROTECTION UNDER THE LAW. AND ALSO, I HASTEN TO ADD, WE'RE CATHOLICS BUT WE'RE ALSO RATIONAL INDIVIDUALS. IF YOU GO BACK IN THE HISTORY OF PHILOSOPHY, WHY IS IT THAT WE WOULD ARGUE, FOR EXAMPLE, THAT SLAVERY IS WRONG? WHY IS IT THAT WE WOULD ARGUE THAT ABORTION IS WRONG AND CAN'T BE MITIGATED BY THE PRIVACY RIGHTS OF THE MOTHER. SO, LET'S GO BACK TO YOUR QUESTION. YOU ARE SAYING, OKAY. LOOK. I CAN'T TELL A WOMAN THAT SOMEBODY OUGHT TO HAVE CUSTODY OVER HER BODY. WELL, GENERALLY, THAT'S TRUE. THAT'S WHAT WE CALL A PRIVACY ISSUE OR A PRIVACY RIGHT OF THE MOTHER. ON THE OTHER HAND, THOUGH, WE CAN REASONABLY AND RESPONSIBLY ESTABLISH THAT YOU HAVE A UNIQUE HUMAN BEING WITH A UNIQUE GENETIC PACKAGE THAT IS A UNIQUE AND SEPARATE DISTINCT IDENTITY WHICH WE IN ALL CIRCUMSTANCES UNDER THE LAW IDENTIFY AS A PERSON DESERVING OF PROTECTION UNDER THE LAW. NOW, YOU HAVE TO DETERMINE, HEY, WE GOT A RIGHTS CONFLICT. WE HAVE THE RIGHT OF THE EMBRYO TO LIFE. AND WE HAVE THE RIGHT OF THE MOTHER TO HER PRIVACY. HOW HAVE WE ALWAYS DECIDED RIGHTS CONFLICTS IN HISTORY. EVEN THE RIGHTS CONFLICTS CONCERNING SLAVERY. WE ALWAYS LOOKED AT THE HIGHER RIGHT. HOW DO YOU DETERMINE WHAT THE HIGHER RIGHT IS? WE DO IT THE SAME WAY JOHN LOCKE DID IT. WE DO IT THE SAME WAY FRANSISCO SUAREZ DID. THE SAME WAY HUGO GROTIUS DID IT. AND THE SAME WAY THAT THOMAS JEFFERSON DID IT IMPLICITLY IN THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE. ANY RIGHT THAT IS NECESSARY FOR THE VERY POSSIBILITY OF ANOTHER RIGHT MUST BE A HIGHER RIGHT THAN THE RIGHT THAT IS DEPENDENT ON IT. SO, FOR EXAMPLE, IF THE RIGHT TO LIFE IS NECESSARY, FOR THE VERY POSSIBILITY OF THE RIGHT TO LIBERTY, THEN THE RIGHT TO LIFE HAS TO BE HIGHER RIGHT THAN THE RIGHT TO LIBERTY. BECAUSE AFTER ALL, IF YOU ARE DEAD, YOUR LIBERTY RIGHTS ARE A MOOT QUESTION. IT HAS TO BE THE HIGHER RIGHT. SIMILE, WE HAVE THE VERY SAME PROBLEM WHEN THE SUPREME COURT ERRONEOUSLY DECLARED, IN SANFORD VS. DRED SCOTT THAT BLACK PEOPLES' LIBERTY RIGHTS WERE SUBORDINATE TO WHITE PEOPLES' PROPERTY RIGHTS, THE CAPACITY OF WHITE PEOPLE TO OWN A BLACK MAN. THAT'S OBVIOUSLY ERRONEOUS? WHY? BECAUSE A LIBERTY RIGHT HAS TO BE HIGHER THAN A PROPERTY RIGHT. AFTER ALL, LIBERTY RIGHTS ARE NECESSARY FOR THE VERY POSSIBILITY OF PROPERTY RIGHTS. WHAT GOOD DOES IT DO IF I TELL YOU, DOUG, HEY, YOU GET TO OWN ALL OF THE PROPERTY YOU WANT TO OWN. BUT I GET TO OWN YOU. DE FACTO, I OWN YOUR PROPERTY AS WELL. OBVIOUSLY, THE LIBERTY RIGHT, RIGHT TO AUTONOMY, WITH RESPECT TO YOUR IDENTITY, YOUR PERSONHOOD HAS GOT TO BE A HIGHER RIGHT THAN A PROPERTY RIGHT. SO, THAT BEING SAID, YOU CAN MAKE THE JUSTIFICATION EASILY. EVEN THOUGH THE SUPREME COURT ERRONEOUSLY SAID, WHITE MEN'S PROPERTY RIGHTS ARE SUPERIOR TO BLACK MEN'S PROPERTY RIGHTS. AND THEY WERE DEAD WRONG, PROVEN TO BE DEAD WRONG. AND NOW, ROE V. WADE'S DECISION COMES ALONG AND THE WOMAN'S PRIVACY RIGHT IS HIGHER THAN AN EMBRYO'S RIGHT TO LIFE. DEAD WRONG. CLEAR THAT THE HIERARCHY, ONTOLOGICAL THAT IT REQUIRES THAT RIGHT TO LIFE IS HIGHER THAN A PROPERTY RIGHT. WE KNOW IT'S A HUMAN BEING WITH A DISTINCT PERSONHOOD AND IDENTITY. AND YOU KNOW WITH THE RATIONAL SOURCES OF THE SOUL, IT HAS A SOUL AS WELL. FOR ALL INTENSIVE PURPOSES, WHAT MORE DO YOU NEED TO SAY THAT THAT BEING, THAT HUMAN BEING, UNIQUE HUMAN BEING HAS A RIGHT TO LIFE. IN UTERO OR NOT UTERO. DEPENDENT UPON THE WOMAN'S WOMB OR NUTRITION AND NOT DEPENDENT ON HER WOMB OR NUTRITION. SO, YOU GOT TO ERR IN FAVOR OF THE HIGHER RIGHT. YOU HAVE TO DECIDE IN FAVOR OF THE HIGHER RIGHT. OTHERWISE WE'RE ALL -- >> Doug: RIGHT. AND OTHERWISE WE'RE DEALING WITH PEOPLE WITH DISABLED, HANDICAPS, OLDER PEOPLE WHO ARE DEPENDENT ON SOMEBODY TAKING CARE OF THEM. >> Father: ABSOLUTELY. >> Doug: WELL, THE IDEA THAT I DON'T OWING THIS, IF I DON'T TAKE CARE OF THEM, THEY ARE GOING TO DIE. I'M NOT OBLIGATED BECAUSE THAT'S THEIR PROBLEM AND I'M IN CONTROL OF IT AND WE DON'T NEED TO PAY ATTENTION TO THESE PEOPLE. >> Father: ABSOLUTELY. YOU CAN MAKE ABSOLUTELY THE SAME CASE. >> Doug: AND THEY ARE, THAT'S THE PROBLEM, RIGHT? >> Father: THAT'S THE PROBLEM. SO, I REST MY CASE. CLEARLY, THE ONE SINGLE-CELL HUMAN EMBRYO IS A UNIQUE HUMAN BEING. NO QUESTION ABOUT THAT. CLEARLY HIS RIGHT OUTWEIGHS THE PRIVACY RIGHT WHICH IS SECONDARY TO THE MOTHER. PERIOD. >> Doug: HERE WE HAVE SUCH TECHNOLOGY, LOOK INTO THE WOMB AND WE KNOW ALL OF THIS INFORMATION. AND FOREVER, ABORTION, CERTAINLY FROM A CHRISTIAN-WESTERN THING HAS ALWAYS BEEN WRONG. PEOPLE KNOW INTRINSICALLY IT'S WRONG AND NOW WE HAVE THAT MUCH MORE PROOF, THAT APPROACH, WHETHER IT'S CHRISTIANITY OR WHATEVER YOU WANT TO SAY IS CORRECT. NOW, WE'RE TALKING ABOUT THINGS THAT NOBODY 50 YEARS AGO WAS TALKING ABOUT SOMEBODY FORCING SOMEBODY TO DO ANYTHING WITH THEIR BODY. >> IT IS SIMPLY UNBELIEVABLE THAT WE HAVE A REVERSAL OF THE PRIORITIZATION OF RIGHTS. EVEN REALLY FROM 40 YEARS AGO, REVERSAL OF RIGHTS DONE, IN MY VIEW, DONE CAPRICIOUSLY BY THE SUPREME COURT WITHOUT ANY JUSTIFICATION THAT WARRANTS THE NAME JUSTIFICATION, CAN YOU IMAGINE ANYBODY WRITING A FRESHMAN PAPER WRITING A PAPER SAYING, GEE, WE'RE NOT SURE WHEN HUMAN LIFE BEGINS. AND WE CONSULTED A FEW EXPERTS BUT THEY WERE CONFUSED. BUT THEY DIDN'T TALK TO OUR EXPERTS OR ANYBODY THAT KNEW ANYTHING ABOUT DNA SEQUENCING OR ANYBODY THAT KNEW ANYTHING ABOUT THE MITOCHONDRIAL DNA OR MADE ANY STUDIES ABOUT THE TRANS-PHYSICAL PROPERTIES OF HUMAN BEING'S CONSCIOUSNESS. THEY DIDN'T DO ANYTHING, THEY CONSULTED A FEW PEOPLE AND SO, THEY SAID, YOU CAN GO AHEAD. AND THEY LITERALLY SANCTIONED THE KILLING OF ARGUABLY, A UNIQUE HUMAN BEING. AND BASED UPON ALL SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE, YOU CAN GO AHEAD AND KILL A HUMAN BEING, ON A WHOLESALE SCALE. WHEN IN DOUBT, KILL. CAN YOU IMAGINE? YOUR FRIEND GOES OUT DEER HUNTING. AND YOU KNOW, HE SAYS, I HEARD SOME RUSTLING IN THE BUSHES AND I SHOT AT THE DEER. LO AND BEHOLD, IT TURNED OUT TO BE MY FRIEND DOUG. AND I KILLED HIM. CAN YOU IMAGINE THE COURT SAYING, WELL, YOU ARE NOT RESPONSIBLE. YOU DIDN'T SAY ANYTHING, YOU DIDN'T CHECK IT OUT, AND YOU JUST SHOT AT WILL WHEN YOU WERE UNCERTAIN. WOULD YOU BE RESPONSIBLE FOR NEGLIGENT HOMICIDE? ABSOLUTELY! YOU WOULD BE CONVICTED. AND I THINK THE MAJORITY THAT PASSED THE ROE V. WADE DECISION SHOULD BE GUILTY OF NEGLIGENT HOMICIDE AND FRANKLY, OUGHT TO BE GUILTY OF WHAT WE MIGHT CALL AT LEAST HOMICIDE, INTENTIONAL HOMICIDE IN TERMS OF THE DECISION AND THE WAY THAT THE DECISION WAS MADE, WHEN IN DOUBT, KILL. IT'S JUST UTTERLY BIZARRE AND WE PRAY THAT DECISION WILL BE REVERSED SO WE CAN LET INNOCENT HUMAN LIFE HAVE RIGHTS AND HAVE ITS DAY. >> AND I THINK IN THE PAST, THERE ALSO USED TO BE A LITTLE MORE ACCENT ON PEOPLES' PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITIES PRIOR TO THEIR SITUATIONS IN MANY CASES AND OBVIOUSLY, SITUATIONS BEYOND PEOPLES' CONTROL. BUT MOST OF THE TIME SHE IS ARE A SITUATION WITHIN REASON WOULD HAVE BEEN SEEN IN THE PAST AS WELL. AND MAYBE THIS IS SOMETHING THAT YOU COULD HAVE DEALT WITH UP FRONT. NOW, MAYBE YOU HAVE TO DEAL WITH IT IN ANOTHER WAY AND SHOULDN'T HAVE TO DO WITH A CHILD DYING. >> ABSOLUTELY. WE HAVE TO TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR OUR ACTIONS AND JUST BECAUSE THERE'S MORE SEXUAL LICENSE IN THE CULTURE TODAY DOESN'T MEAN THAT EXCUSES YOU FROM KILLING A HUMAN BEING. >> Doug: OKAY. WE HAVE ANOTHER QUESTION, AND WE'RE GETTING UP NEAR THE BREAK HERE. NOW, DEAR FATHER SPITZER, AFTER YEARS OF BEING AWAY FROM THE CHURCH, I HAD A MAJOR CONVERSION AND WENT BACK TO CONFESSION. I NOW HAVE AN ACTIVE FAITH LIFE. THAT'S GREAT. WHAT ABOUT THE SINS I THAT HAD FORGOTTEN TO CONFESS AFTER MY CONVERSION? DO I HAVE TO GO BACK TO MY YOUTH AND CONFESS ALL MY INDIVIDUAL SINS FROM THE PAST IF I RECEIVED THIS CONVERSION BY THE FATHER THROUGH CHRIST? THANK YOU, FATHER! THIS IS FROM ERNIE. >> Father: NO, NO, YOU ABSOLUTELY DON'T HAVE TO GO BACK. IF YOU MADE A GOOD CONFESSION AND YOU ABSOLUTELY TRIED TO REMEMBER, AT THE TIME YOU MADE YOUR CONFESSION AND TRIED TO REMEMBER WHAT YOU COULD AND YOU TRIED TO GIVE AS COMPLETE A CONFESSION AT THE TIME AND JUST FORGET A WHOLE LOT OF THINGS AND A LOT OF PEOPLE WOULD OBVIOUSLY SAY THEY COULD EASILY HAVE DONE. AND I COULD HAVE EASILY DONE THAT, IF I WERE CONFESSING FOR 20 YEARS IF I HADN'T BEEN ALERT TO THAT. ALL OF THAT BEING SAID, YOU KNOW, I WOULD DEFINITELY SAY, WE'RE ALL CAPABLE OF DOING THAT. YOU DON'T HAVE TO GO BACK AND RECONFESS ALL THOSE THINGS. WHEN YOU GET ABSOLUTION, YOU GET ABSOLUTION FOR ALL OF THE SINS OF YOUR PAST LIFE. YOU MEANINGFUL TRIED TO REMEMBER. BUT IF YOU DIDN'T, YOU DIDN'T. YOU KNOW, IF YOU REMEMBER SOME THINGS, JUST BRING IT UP TO THE LORD IN PRAYER AND SAY, LORD, I DIDN'T CONFESS THESE THINGS BUT YOU KNOW I'M SORRY FOR THOSE AS WELL. JUST BRING IT TO HIM. YOU DON'T HAVE TO RECONFESS EVERYTHING. SO, THAT'S PART OF THE TEACHING. >> Doug: AND I THINK THAT PEOPLE LIKE THAT MIGHT FIND, THEY GO TO CONFESSION, HAVE THE CONVERSION, GET THE GRACE, MORE GRACE AND START TO REFLECT BACK AND CERTAIN THINGS THAT THEY MAY NOT HAVE SEEN AS REALLY SINFUL. THEY MAY REALIZE, OH, THAT WAS NOT RIGHT NOW. ET CETERA. SO, YOU HAVE TO, IN REAL LIFE THAT MAY HAPPEN TO YOU. >> AGAIN, THE ABSOLUTION COUNTS. IT FORGIVES AND REMITS EVERYTHING PRIOR TO THE CONFESSION IF YOU WERE ACTUALLY NOT TRYING TO HIDE SOMETHING. >> KIND OF REMINDS ME OF GOING BACK AND WATCHING AN OLD MOVIE AND SAYING, WOW, I WAS WATCHING THIS. WHAT WAS I THINKING! WITH THAT, LET'S TAKE A BREAK WITH FATHER SPITZER. WE'RE GOING TO BE TALKING ABOUT HEAVEN, RIGHT AFTER THIS SHORT BREAK HERE IN THE MIDST OF "FR. SPITZER'S UNIVERSE." MUCH MORE TO COME, OF COURSE. STAY WITH US. ♪ ♪ >> Doug: WE'RE GOING TO BE TALKING ABOUT HEAVEN HERE IN FATHER SPITZER AND WE'RE TURNING OVER TO THE CHRIST CATHEDRAL WHERE FATHER SPITZER IS AND THEY ARE GOING TO HAVE A GRAND OPENING. AND YOU ARE GOING TO BE PARTICIPATING IN THAT, RIGHT? >> Father: THAT'S RIGHT. MATT BUNSON AND SOME OF THE COMMENTATORS THERE AND IT'S GOING TO BE A BIG, BIG HOOPLA. EVERYBODY TUNE IN. 10:00 TO 10:30, JULY 17TH PACIFIC TIME. >> AND BRIAN PATRICK IS GOING TO BE OUT THERE WITH YOU. >> Father: YEAH, THAT'S RIGHT. >> AND HERE'S ANOTHER TOPIC LEADING IN TO HEAVEN. LET'S USE THIS AS A PRELUDE. DEAR FATHER SPITZER, WHAT'S YOUR INTERPRETATION OF MANY ROOMS IN JOHN 14? IN MY FATHER'S HOUSE ARE MANY ROOMS; IF IT WERE NOT SO, WOULD I HAVE TOLD YOU THAT I GO TO PREPARE A PLACE FOR YOU. PLEASE ELABORATE. THANKS, ERROL. >> Father: OKAY. THAT'S JESUS' IMAGE OF SAYING ABUNDANT SPACE FOR EVERY ONE THAT WANTS TO ENTER INTO THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN. OBVIOUSLY, USING THE ANALOGY OF A HOME WHICH JESUS DOES TYPICALLY. HE'S USING THE IMAGE OF A HOME OR BANQUET. SO, THE MANY ROOMS, ONCE AGAIN REFERRING BACK TO THAT FEEL OF HOME IN HEAVEN REACHING A PERFECT KIND OF HOME WITH A PERFECT KIND OF FAMILY OVERSEEN BY A PERFECTLY LOVING GOD. THAT'S A TYPICAL IMAGE OF JESUS, ALONG WITH THE MESSIANIC BANQUET, THAT WE'RE ALL SEATED AT THE GRAND BANQUET WITH ALL OF THE VARIOUS SAINTS AND BLESSED, IN THE KINGDOM OF GOD. AND IT'S AS PLEASANT AS BEING SEEN WITH ALL OF THE PEOPLE, IN A GRANDIOSE CELEBRATION OF LIFE AND CELEBRATION OF THEM THAT JUST GOES ON ETERNALLY. THOSE ARE JESUS' TWO FAVORITE IMAGES. IMAGE OF HOME AND THE BANQUET. OF COURSE, THE REFERENCE TO MANY ROOMS MEANS ABUNDANT SPACE. PLENTY OF ROOM FOR YOU AND FOR ME. >> RIGHT. BUILT TO ACCOMMODATE EVERYBODY, IF IN THEORY, YOU CAN GET THERE. >> THAT'S RIGHT. >> Doug: HERE'S ANOTHER QUESTION. DEAR FR. SPITZER, MY IDENTICAL TWIN SISTER PASSED AWAY A LITTLE OVER A YEAR AGO IN A CAR ACCIDENT. I'M SORRY TO HEAR THAT. MY FAITH AND FAMILY HAS HELD ME TOGETHER AND I BELIEVE I HAVE EVEN GROWN IN MY FAITH BUT I MISS HER SO MUCH EVERY DAY. SOUNDS TYPICAL WITH TWINS. BASED ON NEAR DEATH EXPERIENCES, DO YOU THINK OUR DEPARTED ONES MISS US, TOO? I KNOW THERE'S NO UNHAPPINESS IN HEAVEN, BUT WE WERE SO CLOSE. GOD BLESS YOU, DEBBIE. AND OF COURSE, YOUR GREAT ASSISTANT, JOAN, IS ONE OF A TWIN SO SHE WOULD KNOW THAT AND UNDERSTAND THAT. >> Father: EXACTLY. YES. SHE WOULD. NOW, IN THE SENSE OF MISSING, AS YOU MISS HER, SHE OF COURSE, IS IN A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT CONTEXT. SHE KNOWS YOU ARE MOVING GRADUALLY TOWARD HER AND SHE CAN HAVE ACCESS ABOUT THINGS IN YOUR LIFE THAT YOU DON'T HAVE IN HER LIFE. SHE'S NOT MISSING YOU IN A PAINFUL, SAME WAY THAT YOU MISS HER. BECAUSE OF COURSE, HEAVEN PROVIDES THAT CONTEXT. NOW, DOES SHE DESIRE TO BE REUNIFIED WITH YOU. OF COURSE SHE DOES. AND OF COURSE, YOU DESIRE TO BE REUNIFIED WITH HER. SO THAT MUCH YOU HAVE IN COMMON. THAT MUCH YOU SHARE. SHE DESIRES TO BE WITH YOU BUT NOT IN THE SENSE OF HAVING PAIN AS YOU MISS HER IN THE SENSE OF HAVING PAIN. >> Doug: AND HERE'S THE LAST QUESTION BEFORE WE GET TO THE TOPIC BUT RELATED TO THE TOPIC. DEAR FR. SPITZER, I KNOW THAT WHEN WE ARE IN HEAVEN, THE MOST IMPORTANT ASPECT WILL BE THE BEATIFIC VISION, BUT WILL WE HAVE ANYTHING TO DO IN TERMS OF SERVING OUR LORD, WORK, OR SERVING OTHERS? I KNOW THIS MIGHT SEEM TRIVIAL, BUT I AM JUST WONDERING WHAT ELSE WE MIGHT BE DOING. THANK YOU FOR YOUR DEDICATION TO THE PRIESTHOOD AND FOR YOUR BEAUTIFUL MINISTRY. SHON THIS IS INTEREST BECAUSE YOU DEAL WITH IT IN THE SEGMENT WE'RE GETTING READY TO GO THROUGH AND PEOPLE THINK, OH, IT'S GOING TO BE SO BORING THERE. >> NOW, YOU WON'T BE SERVING THE LORD IN THAT SAME SENSE AS HERE, LIKE, TRYING TO BUILD THE KINGDOM. HOWEVER, WE WILL BIBLE TO BE INVOLVED IN PRAYING FOR THE FAITHFUL. AND WE KNOW THAT THE SAINTS AND THOSE WHO ARE IN HEAVEN DO PRAY FOR THE FAITHFUL. SO, IN A WAY THAT KIND OF SERVICE TO THE LORD IN THAT SERVICE, I THINK WE DEFINITELY WOULD HAVE THAT, AS ANGELS AND SAINTS, PORTRAYED IN THE BOOK OF REVELATION ARE PORTRAYED AS THAT. BUT WE WOULD PRAISE THE LORD, AND DEFINITELY, YOU CAN SORT OF SEE THAT AS SERVICE. BUT NOT LIKE A WORK SERVICE, IN THAT SENSE, SACRIFICIAL SERVICE. BECAUSE IT'S OUR JOY TO PRAISE THE LORD. AND JUST LIKE WHEN I'M READING MY PSALMS OR SOMETHING, LISTENING TO MY PSALMS. I DON'T READ TOO MUCH ANY MORE. BUT AS I LISTENING TO THE PSALMS, I'M PRAISING THE LORD AND THAT MAKE ME HAPPY TO GIVE PRAISE TO THE LORD AND TO GIVE THANKS TO HIM FOR EVERYTHING THAT HE'S GIVEN TO ME. THANKS TO HIM FOR ALL OF THE BEAUTY OF NATURE. ET CETERA, THESE THINGS GIVE US JOY. AND YOU CAN CALL IT A KIND OF SERVICE OF PRAISE, SORT OF PUT IT THAT WAY. BUT IT'S REALLY A JOY-FILLED SERVICE JUST LIKE PRAYER ON BEHALF OF OTHERS IS A JOY-FILLED SERVICE. AND THAT'S WHAT WE WOULD BE DOING. AND OF COURSE, WHEN THE FINAL JUDGMENT HAPPENS WE WOULD BE SO MUCH NOT PRAYING FOR FOLKS ANY MORE BUT THEY ARE ALL GOING TO BE COLLECTED TOGETHER IN HEAVEN, THE BLESSED WILL BE. AND BASICALLY, WE TURN TO NOT ONLY PRAISING THE LORD BUT WE WOULD BE INVOLVED IN JUST BEING IN LOVE WITH THE LORD AND BEING IN LOVE WITH ALL OF THE BLESSED AND DISCOVERINGS, RIGHT? BECAUSE WE'RE NOT GOING TO HAVE ANY EGO WHATSOEVER, RIGHT? SO, THERE'S NO EGO OBSCURING OUR VISION OF SOMEONE. WILL WE BE ABLE TO SEE THE UNIQUE GOODNESS AND LOVABILITY AND TRANSCENDENT ABILITY OF THAT. ABSOLUTELY. WILL IT BE ABSOLUTELY FASCINATING, YES. AND WILL WE ENTER INTO A COMMUNION WITH THAT KIND OF PERSON BETTER THAN ANY OTHER KIND OF COMMUNION WITH ANYBODY WE'VE HAD ON THIS EARTH. ABSOLUTELY. WILL THEY BE ABLE TO DO THE SAME WITH US, FEELING THE SENSE OF MUTUALITY AND SENSE OF EGO. THAT'S JUST ONE PERSON. JUST IMAGINE, BILLIONS AND BILLIONS AND BILLIONS UPON BILLIONS OF PEOPLE UPON CENTURIES AND GENERATIONS. AND THEN WITH THE INFINITE OF LOVABILITY OF GOD, I CAN JUST IMAGINE WHAT THAT WOULD BE LIKE. SO, FOR ALL INTENSIVE PURPOSES, IT'S NOT GOING TO BE BORING. AND I CAN ASSURE YOU THAT WHATEVER EXPERIENCE THAT YOU EVER WANTED ON THIS EARTH, YOU CAN HAVE THAT SAME SIMILAR EXPERIENCE BECAUSE WE KNOW FROM JESUS' OWN DESCRIPTIONS AND WE KNOW FROM DESCRIPTIONS OF NEAR DEATH EXPERIENCE, IT'S BEAUTIFUL INDEED. IT'S SO BEAUTIFUL, NOT JUST FASCINATING BUT ENRAPTURING AND WE JUST HAVE THIS SORT OF YOU KNOW, EXPERIENCE AS CLOSE TO PERFECT BEAUTY AS WE CAN APPROPRIATE. AS CLOSE TO PERFECT LOVE AS WE CAN APPROPRIATE. THE EXPERIENCE OF PERFECT GOODNESS AS MUCH AS WE CAN APPROPRIATE, THE EXPERIENCE OF PERFECT TRUTH AS MUCH AS WE CAN APPROPRIATE. AND THE EXPERIENCE OF PERFECT HOME AS MUCH AS WE CAN APPROPRIATE. AND I CAN TELL YOU THE DEFINITION OF NON BOREDOM. I MEAN, THAT'S IT. >> Doug: THERE YOU GO. >> Father: SUCH AN ECSTASY, TIME WOULD LITERALLY STAND STILL. AND WHEN YOU ARE AT A RESTAURANT, SAY, WITH YOUR GOOD FRIENDS AND ENJOYING A GLASS OF WINE, ENJOYING A GOOD MEAL AND JUST SORT OF CAUGHT UP IN THE CONVERSATION AND CAUGHT UP WITH FAMILY AND TALKING TO ONE ANOTHER AND SO FORTH. AND YOU HAVE THIS HUMAN COMMUNITY THAT IS SO DEEP, UNOBSCURED BY ANY EGOCENTRICITY WHATSOEVER. BECAUSE EGO KIND OF DISSIPATES IN THOSE KIND OF CONCENTRATIONS AND SOME GUY LOOKS AT HIS WATCH AND SAYS, OH, MY GOSH, IT'S 2:00 IN THE MORNING. WHERE DID THE TIME GO? WELL, WHERE DID THE TIME GO. IT'S ALMOST STANDING STILL IN THE HUMAN COMMUNITY UNOBSCURED BY EGO. JUST IMAGINE THAT BROUGHT TO A BILLION -- NO, NO, A TRILLION, QUADRILLION TIMES TOLD LOVELIER THAT WOULD BE VERY, VERY NON BORING AND HAPPY AS IT GETS. >> WELL, I TOLD MY WIFE THAT THE TIME JUST GOT AWAY FROM ME, WHEN WE WERE OUT HAVING A LITTLE DIN. AND YOU WERE GETTING A LITTLE KARL SAGAN-LIKE THERE, TALKING ABOUT BILLIONS AND BILLIONS. YOU KNOW, SPEAKING ABOUT ANOTHER MAN OF THE UNIVERSE. OKAY. NOW, TALKING ABOUT CHAPTER 7, WHAT DO YOU HAVE AGAINST HARPS? >> WELL, A LOT OF PEOPLE THINK, YOU ARE SITTING UP IN THE CLOUD PRACTICALLY PLAYING A HARP. AN IT'S ANYTHING BUT THAT! YOU ARE REALLY, YOU MAY BE ABLE TO PLAY A HARP AND DO ANYTHING THAT YOU REALLY WANTED TO DO. BECAUSE WE KNOW THAT IN OUR TRANSFORMED BODIES, JUST FROM THE STUDIES OF NEAR DEATH EXPERIENCES, PEOPLE CAN JUST PROTECT THEMSELVES TO WHERE THEY WANT TO BE. SO, YOU COULD BE ANYWHERE IN HISTORY, ANYWHERE IN HEAVEN. YOU JUST THINK THAT YOU ARE THERE, AS IT WERE. SO, IT'S A COMPLETELY NEW CONTEXT IN OUR TRANSFORMED BODIES. SO, REALLY HARPS DON'T QUITE DESCRIBE IT THEY ARE A WONDERFUL LITTLE IMAGE BUT THEY ARE FAR FROM THE TRUTH. BUT WE'RE REALLY DOING IN HEAVEN, WE'RE ABLE TO HAVE ANY EXPERIENCE THAT WE WANT TO EXPERIENCE. WE HAVE THE EXPERIENCE OF THOSE EXPERIENCES BROUGHT TO THEIR FULLEST STATE OF BEAUTY THAT WE COULD NEVER HAVE HERE ON EARTH. WE'RE ABLE TO EXPERIENCE THE FULLNESS OF LOVING RELATIONSHIP WITH EACH AND EVERY FASCINATING UNIQUELY GOOD AND LOVEABLE HEALTHCARE AND ON TOP OF IT, THE INFINITE LOVEABLE AND GOOD GOD BUT WE'RE ABLE TO ENTER INTO THE COMMUNION TO THIS LOVING RELATIONSHIP WHICH WOULD EVEN MAKE A FULLNESS OF ETERNITY STAND STILL IN TIME THROUGH THE ECSTASY OF IT ALL BY BEING WITH GOD. AND ON TOP OF THAT, WE ACTUALLY HAVE THE ANSWERS, AS IT WERE, TO THE TIMELESS QUESTIONS, NOT JUST TO THE QUESTIONS OF WHAT'S GOING ON IN OUR UNIVERSE, INTERESTING AS THOSE THINGS MAY BE. BUT NOT JUST THE INTEREST OF THE ANSWERS TO THE QUESTIONS, QUANTUM PHYSICS BUT THE ANSWERS OF THE TIMELESS QUESTIONS, PERFECT TRUTH, GOODNESS, BEAUTY, JUSTICE, AND LOVE. AND THAT WOULD BE, AS IT WERE, ANOTHER KIND OF ECSTASY AND IT'S ALL BROUGHT TO FULFILLMENT IN GAZING UPON THE PERFECTLY LOVEABLE TRUTH-FILLED, PERFECTLY GOOD, HOME-FILLED PERFECT BEING OF GOD HIMSELF. AND SO, THAT WOULD BE HEAVEN. HARPS, NOTHING AGAINST THEM! >> Doug: THERE YOU GO. YOU MENTIONED THAT JESUS' PREACHING OF THE KINDS HAVE INTERRELATED DIMENSIONS. THE PRESENT KINGDOM BROUGHT TO THE WORLD BY JESUS AND THE FUTURE KINGDOM WHICH WILL BE THE FUTURE FULFILLMENT OF EVERY INDIVIDUAL IN THE JOY OF LOVE AND THE TRIUNE GOD. LET'S TALK ABOUT THOSE TWO IMAGES THERE. >> Father: YOU KNOW, WHEN JESUS TALKS ABOUT, FIRST OF ALL, THOUGH, HE TALKS ABOUT BRINGING IN THE KINGDOM HIMSELF. OBVIOUSLY, HE'S NOT GOING TO BRING WHAT WE MIGHT CALL THE FUTURE ESCHATOLOGICAL KINGDOM, THAT IS TO SAY, HEAVEN. HE'S NOT TALKING ABOUT BRINGING HEAVEN TO EARTH. YOU LOOK AROUND AFTER JESUS CAME AND YOU GOING, OH, THERE'S STILL A LOT OF NON HEAVENLY THINGS AROUND HERE. OF COURSE. THAT'S THE FIRST THING. SO, HE'S NOT BRINGING THE HEAVENLY KINGDOM BUT HE IS BRINGING HIS KINGDOM. WHAT DOES HE MEAN BY THAT? HE IS BRINGING, IF I CAN USE THIS TERM, A CONDUIT, RIGHT, BETWEEN THIS EARTH, THIS WORLD AS HE CALLS IT. AND THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN, THE ESCHATOLOGICAL KINGDOM. AND HE'S BRINGING, IF I CAN USE IT AS A TUNNEL, THAT TERMINOLOGY, SOMETHING THAT IS DIRECTLY LINKING THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN WITH THE KINGDOM OF THE WORLD. NOW, THE KINGDOM OF THE WORLD IS IN THE WORLD. NO DOUBT ABOUT IT. BUT IT'S NOT THE PERFECT HEAVENLY KINGDOM BUT IT'S LINKED TO AND CONNECTED TO IT. SO THAT'S WHERE WE GET OUR DOCTRINE OF THE COMMUNION OF THE SAINTS FROM. THE CHURCH IS IN THE WORLD AND THE CHURCH IS PART OF THE KINGDOM THAT JESUS HAS BROUGHT. AND THE SPIRIT SEPARATING THROUGH THE CHURCH IS PART OF THE KINGDOM THAT JESUS HAS BROUGHT, THAT GATEWAY, TUNNEL, ICON, PORTAL, THAT GOES TO THE REAL KINGDOM OF HEAVEN. HE HAS BROUGHT THAT TO THE EARTH. BUT THAT CHURCH IS CONNECTED WITH ALL OF THE SAINTS AND THE ANGELS AND GOD IN HEAVEN IN THAT PERFECT ESCHATOLOGICAL STATE. AND THE COMMUNION OF SAINTS IS CONNECTED WITH THE CHURCH AND WE CALL ALL OF THIS COMBINED THE MYSTICAL BODY OF CHRIST BECAUSE IT IS ALL UNITED IN JESUS' RISEN BODY. SO, WE MIGHT JUST SAY THAT THIS IS THE DOUBLE MEANING OF THE KINGDOM. IT'S THE KINGDOM HERE THROUGH THE CHURCH AND THROUGH THE SPIRIT SEPARATING THROUGH THE CHURCH. AND ALSO, THE KINGDOM IN HEAVEN, THE COMMUNION OF SAINTS AND THE ANGELS. AND IT'S THE CONNECTION BETWEEN THOSE TWO KINGDOM. THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT JESUS INTENDED WHEN HE SAID THAT HE WAS BRINGING THE [FOREIGN WORDS] THE KINGDOM OF GOD HIMSELF TO THE WORLD. AND THE KINGDOM OF GOD IS AT HAND IN HIS PERSON. AND HE SAYS KNOW THIS. THAT IF I DO THESE MIRACLES AND I CAST OUT DEMONS BY THE POWER OF GOD, KNOW THAT THE KINGDOM OF GOD IS UPON YOU. LITERALLY, HE'S BRINGING THE KINGDOM OF GOD HERE AND THE KINGDOM OF GOD, LITERALLY STRETCHING THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN AND BRINGING IT RIGHT DOWN TO THIS EARTH AND SUBSTANTIATING IT THROUGH THE HOLY SPIRIT AND WORKING THROUGH IT AND WORKING THROUGH OUR INDIVIDUAL HEARTS AND SOULS. AND AS WE'RE BROUGHT INTO THE SACRAMENTS, WE'RE BROUGHT FURTHER INTO THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN WHICH JESUS HAS BROUGHT TO EARTH IN OUR SOULS THROUGH THE SPIRIT. AND IN THE CHURCH THROUGH THE SPIRIT. AND OF COURSE, WE RIGHT NOW ARE WORKING OUR WAY TOWARD THAT SALVATION AND TOWARD THE HEAVENLY KINGDOM. >> Doug: WE TALK ABOUT THE HEAVENLY KINGDOM. THE QUESTION IS, WHEN PEOPLE HEAR THAT, SOME PEOPLE UNDERSTAND, WELL, THERE'S NOT GOING TO BE ANY HEAVEN ON EARTH. AND PEOPLE SAY, WELL, JESUS BROUGHT THE KINGDOM. SO, IT SEEMS TO BE THAT SOMETIMES THERE'S A CONFLICT IN MAYBE PEOPLE SAYING, IT DOESN'T MATTER WHAT HAPPENS HERE, IT'S ALL ABOUT HEAVEN. AND PEOPLE SEEM TO GO TOO MUCH THE OTHER WAY AND INCREDIBLY FOCUSED TO MAKE HEAVEN ON EARTH SO TO SPEAK. IS THAT PART OF THE MISUNDERSTANDING AND THE ISSUE. >> YEAH, THAT'S PART OF THE MISUNDERSTANDING. BECAUSE WHAT WE REALLY WANT TO SAY, IT'S BOTH. THE KINGDOM THAT JESUS BROUGHT IS AN EXTENSION OF THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN ITSELF. SO, THAT REALLY, GOOD, ETERNAL KINGDOM HAS COME INTO THE WORLD BUT IT'S NOT FULLY MANIFEST. BECAUSE IT'S IN THE WORLD. IT'S IN A WORLD THAT'S STEEPED STILL IN SIN AND REQUIRES CONVERSION AND STILL HAS THE EVIL SPIRIT AND HIS MINIONS, RIGHT, SATAN AND HIS MINIONS ARE STILL PROWLING AROUND. SO, IT'S IN THE WORLD BUT THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN IS NOT OF THE WORLD, PER SE, BUT IT'S IN THE WORLD AND JESUS HAS BROUGHT IT AND MOST SUBSTANTIATED IN THE WORLD AND IN YOUR SOUL AND IN THE WORLD AND THE SPIRIT WORKING IN YOUR SOUL, SO, IT'S HERE, NO QUESTION ABOUT IT, BUT IT'S NOT THE FULLNESS OF THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN THAT'S HERE. WE HAVE TO SAY, LIKE, A CHILD CRYING FOR BOTH. THAT THE KINGDOM THAT'S BROUGHT TO THIS WORLD BY JESUS IS THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN BUT IT ALSO HAS THE WORLD IN IT. AND THE WORLD, AS I PUT IT, STEEPED IN SIN AND IMPERFECTION AND HAS THE EVIL SPIRIT AND HIS MINIONS PROWLING AROUND IT. >> Doug: VERY GOOD. NOW, THE FIRST ONE UP IS THE MESSIANIC BANQUET. TALKED ABOUT HOW JESUS USING THE IMAGE OF THE MESSIANIC BANQUET TO DESCRIBE THE HEAVENLY KINGDOM. AND THIS IS A FAMILIAR CONCEPT IN FIRST CENTURY JUDAISM, THE MESSIANIC BANQUET. >> WELL, IF YOU LOOK AT THE PROPHECIES OF ISAIAH, THERE YOU SEE THE BEAUTIFUL PREDICTIONS OF THE MESSIANIC BANQUET, WITH ALL OF THE SUMPTUOUS FOODS, ALL TEARS WILL BE WIPED AWAY. PEOPLE WHO ARE SITTING AT THE BANQUET ARE ABLE TO, AS IT WERE, TO ENJOY ONE ANOTHER AND ALL OF THE FRUITS THAT THE LORD HAS GIVEN THEM WITHOUT CARE OR CONCERN. AND OFTENTIMES, THE MESSIANIC BANQUET IS PICTURED ATOP THE HEAVENLY MOUNTAIN, WHICH IS OBVIOUSLY, A HEAVEN IMAGE AND THE ISAIAH PROPHECIES ARE VERY WELL KNOWN IN FIRST CENTURY JUDAISM, AMONG THE OTHER PROPHETS TOO, RIGHT. BUT THOSE PROPHECIES, THAT'S THE FIRST THING THAT WE SEE IN ISAIAH THAT'S REALLY IMPORTANT. WHAT JESUS TALKS ABOUT, THOUGH, WHEN HE BRINGS UP THE MESSIANIC BANQUET, HE SAYS, IT'S NOT JUST GOING TO BE THE PEOPLE TO ENJOY THE MESSIANIC BANQUET, PEOPLE FROM THE 0 NORTH, SOUTH, WEST, EAST, AND THAT MEANS GENTILES, NOT EVEN PART OF THE CENTRAL ISRAEL BUT PEOPLE FROM THE NORTH-SOUTH WEST EAST AND ALSO ARE GOING DOOM AND BE PART OF THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN. AND FURTHERMORE, NOT ONLY ARE THEY GOING TO BE THERE, BUT SOME ARE GOING TO BE ENTERING THE KINGDOM BEFORE THE CHOSEN PEOPLE. AND JESUS WANTS THE CHOSEN PEOPLE TO ENTER THE KINGDOM, AS IT WERE A PRIMARY POSITION. BUT HE SAYS, YOU KNOW, BY PEOPLES' OWN CHOICE, GENTILES PEOPLE, MANY WILL ENTER BEFOREHAND. SO, IN THAT LUKE PASSAGE, WHERE HE APPROPRIATES THE IMAGE OF THE MESSIANIC BANQUET, THEY ARE GOING TO ALL BE SEATED THERE WITH ABRAHAM, ALL OF THE PROPHETS, JESUS HIMSELF AT THE MESSIANIC BANQUET WHEN HE SAYS THAT, HE INCLUDES THE GENTILES. SO, HE TRANSFORMS THE IMAGE. BUT STILL THE ISAIAH IMAGE OF WIPING AWAY ALL TEARS, THE CESSATION OF SUFFERING, THE BRINGING OF ALL OF OUR SENSES TO FULFILLMENT, THE BRINGING OF RELATIONSHIP WITH OTHERS, TO FULFILLMENT WITHOUT EGOCENTRICITY. ALL FROM ISAIAH BUT PUT INTO THE GENTILE CONTEXT AND JESUS ADDS HIMSELF AND HIS FATHER TO THE WHOLE CONTEXT. >> RIGHT. AND YOU GO ON TO TOUCH ON WHAT I THOUGHT YOU ELUDED TO EARLIER, WHEN WE FIRST STARTED TALKING ABOUT THIS. THE IDEA OF THE BANQUET IMAGE CONVEYS SEVERAL IMPORTANT POINTS, FIRST, BANQUETS ARE FOR FAMILY AND CLOSE FRIENDS, FIRST, AND ALL WILL BE ELEVATED TO THIS FAMILIAL STATUS AND IT'S TIME TO ENJOY THE ABUNDANCE AND JOY AND BEAUTY OF CREATION AND RELIEVES US FROM SADNESS OF THE DAY. >> Father: THAT'S CORRECT. AND THAT'S PRECISELY THE POINT. THINK JESUS INTENDED EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THOSE IMAGES WHEN HE APPROPRIATES THE ISAIAH PROPHECIES. HE DEFINITELY MEANS TO SAY THERE WILL BE NO SUFFERING. HE MEANS TO SAY THAT LOVE WILL BE BROUGHT TO PERFECT FAMILY STATUS. SO, I AM SO CLOSE TO MY BROTHERS AND SISTERS. RIGHT? I REALLY AM. AND I'M REALLY CLOSE TO MY GOOD FRIENDS. AND I CAN ALMOST GET A SENSE OF WHAT PERFECT FAMILY MIGHT BE LIKE, JUST BEING IN THIS CONTEXT. YET, I DON'T EVEN KNOW THE HALF OF IT! IF I CAN USE THE KARL SAGAN, I DON'T KNOW A BILLIONTH OF A BILLIONTH OF A PART OF IT! IT'S JUST SO BEAUTIFUL AND THE LOVE IS GOING TO BE SO EXQUISITE, DRIVING US TO THAT ECSTASY AND JOY THAT ST. TERESA OF AVILA TALKS ABOUT. >> AND THE ETERNAL MESSIANIC BANQUET, LOVE IS VICTORIOUS OVER DEATH, THE LAST SUPPER. AND IS THAT WHY THE MASS IS, IN A SENSE, SO IMPORTANT TO OUR FAITH LIFE? >> Father: ABSOLUTELY. WELL, OF COURSE, THE MASS IS ALSO THE SACRIFICE AND THE SUPPER, CONJOINED IN ONE WHEN THE PRIEST ELEVATES THE HOST AND SAYS, JESUS' EUCHARISTIC WORDS. REMEMBER, WHEN WE TALKED ABOUT THE DOUBLE COLLAPSE OF TIME, THIS IS NOT JUST A SUPPER -- ALTHOUGH IT IS A DEEPLY INTIMATE SUPPER, THIS PASSOVER SUPPER. AND BY THE WAY, PASSOVER SUPPERS ARE REALLY IMPORTANT. IT'S THE HEIGHTH OF FAMILY LIFE, DURING THE YEAR. SO, THIS IS A DEEPLY INTIMATE BANQUET. ANY PASSOVER. BUT THIS PASSOVER, BEFORE JESUS' DEATH IS SUPER, SUPER IMPORTANT. AND WHEN THE COLLAPSE, JESUS SAYING THIS IS MY BODY, GIVEN FOR YOU. RIGHT NOW, WHEN HE USES THAT PRESENT TENSE, THE GIVEN FOR YOU. HE BRINGS IT INTO THE PRESENT MOMENT FROM THE FUTURE. AND THE SAME THING WITH THE CUP OF BLOOD. SO, HE BRINGS IT RIGHT NOW. IT'S NOW THAT THIS IS HAPPENING, REFERRING TO THE FUTURE DEATH ON THE CROSS. AND NOT ONLY THAT, BUT THE FUTURE RESURRECTION ARISING OUT OF THAT DEATH AND THE FUTURE RESURRECTION FOR US ARISING OUT OF THAT. IT'S ALL RIGHT THERE, EMBEDDED RIGHT IN THE MASS. >> AND RIGHT NOW, OUR TIME HAS COLLAPSED FOR THIS WEEK! SO GIVE US A BLESSING AND A PRAYER ON THE WAY OUT THE DOOR, FATHER, IF YOU WOULD. >> Father: ABSOLUTELY. BOW YOUR HEAD AND PRAY FOR GOD'S BLESSING. AND MAY THE LORD OF ALL PEACE, CONSOLATION, LOVE, TRUTH, AND BEAUTY CAUSE HIS SPIRIT TO DESCEND UPON YOU SO THAT YOU MIGHT SEE IN THE LOVES OF YOUR LIFE, THE TRUTHS OF YOUR LIFE, THE GOODNESS OF YOUR LIFE, THE BEAUTIES OF YOUR LIFE, JUST A LITTLE GLIMMER OF THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN WHICH AWAITS YOU FOR YOUR FAITH, YOUR FIDELITY, FOR YOUR TRYING TO FOLLOW JESUS, AND FOR PUTTING YOUR FAITH AND TRUST IN HIM THROUGH HIS CHURCH. IN THE NAME OF THE FATHER, SON, AND OF THE HOLY SPIRIT. AMEN. >> Doug: VERY GOOD. THANK YOU SO MUCH FATHER SPITZER. WE'LL SEE YOU NEXT WEEK. THANK YOU SO MUCH. STAY WITH US FOR ALL OF FATHER SPITZER RESOURCES AND BOOKS ARE AVAILABLE THROUGH THE ewtnRC.com CATALOGUE. AND NEXT WEEK, WE'RE GOING TO TALK ABOUT HEAVEN, PART 2. WE HAVE THE SOLEMNITY OF CORPUS CHRISTI COMING UP SUNDAY, JUNE 23, AND UP ON THE SCREEN FOR YOU, FIND OUT MORE INFORMATION ABOUT IT. IT'S A WONDERFUL EVENT, FROM THE SHRINE, ONE OF OUR MOST POPULAR EVENTS. AND CHECK THAT OUT. WE'LL HAVE ALL OF THE INFORMATION FOR THE EVENT, AND THE ONE COMING OUT OF ROME TOO. NEXT WEEK, WE'LL TALK ABOUT HEAVEN, ST. PAUL, AND LUKE. ALSO, THIS SUNDAY, DON'T FORGET ME. I'LL BE HOSTING BOOK MARK AND SPEAKING TO TOMORROW AND GLORIA SULLIVAN TALKING ABOUT THE VENERABLE ALOYSIUS SCHWARTZ, ABOUT THE SILENCE AND KILLING ME SOFTLY. I'M DOUG KECK AND WE'LL SEE YOU NEXT WEEK RIGHT HERE AT THE VERY BUSY INTERSECTION OF FAITH AND REASON. OKAY. ♪
