♪ >> Doug Keck: WELCOME TO "FR. SPITZER'S UNIVERSE". I'M DOUG KECK YOUR HOST COMING TO YOU FROM OUR STUDIOS AT EWTN IN IRONDALE, ALABAMA ON MOTHER ANGELICA WAY. WE'RE TALKING ABOUT FATHER SPITZER'S BOOK, THE LIGHT SHINES ON IN THE DARKNESS, TRANSFORMING DARKNESS THROUGH SUFFERING. CHECK IT OUT AT ewtnRC.com. FOLLOW ALONG AND WE'LL GO OVER IT IN THE NEXT FEW SHOWS. YOU CAN EMAIL US QUESTIONS TOO AT spitzersuniverse@ewtn.com. POST YOUR QUESTIONS ON FACEBOOK AND ON TWITTER. JUST GET THE ADDRESSES ON THE SCREEN. ALL THINGS CAN BE FOUND ONLINE AT magiscenter.com. I WANT TO TELL YOU WHAT'S COMING UP, CONVOCATION OF CATHOLIC LEADERS, JULY 1-4 AT EWTN AND WE'RE GOING TO BE AIRING FROM ORLANDO HOSTED BY JOHNETTE BENCOVIC AND DOCTOR JONATHAN RAES FROM THE USCCB. LOOK FOR IT ON OUR WEB SITE, THE CONVOCATION COMING UP. MOTHER ANGELICA'S QUICK GUIDE TO THE SACRAMENTS, THAT'S THE LATEST BOOKS IN THE SERIES PUBLISHED BY EWTN PUBLISHING AND NOW AVAILABLE THROUGH OUR RELIGIOUS CATALOGUE. NOW, LET US MOVE TO THE HEART OF THE MATTER FROM WEST COAST STUDIOS IN ORANGE COUNTY, CALIFORNIA, FATHER SPITZER IS GOING TO JOIN US. AND WE SEE FATHER SPITZER SLOWLY COMING INTO FOCUS AS WE ONCE AGAIN GET IN TOUCH WITH HIM. FATHER, HOW ARE YOU DOING? YOU WERE TELLING ME A LITTLE BEFORE THE SHOW, YOUR VOICE IS MAYBE A LITTLE RASPY OR WORSE FOR THE WEAR BUT YOU ARE GOING TO SOLDIER THROUGH IT. >> I'M GOING TO SOLDIER THROUGH, EXACTLY. BUT IT'S COMING BACK PRETTY NICELY. YEAH, I GOT A LITTLE BIT OF A COUGH BACK IN MINNESOTA. NOW, THOUGH, I'M SUBSTANTIALLY OVER IT. >> AND WE DON'T WANT ANYMORE EMAILS COMPLAINING OVER THE FACT THAT I'M USING YOUR VOICE TOO MUCH THAT I GIVE YOU A BREAK AND LET YOU GET SOME WATER AND MAYBE JOAN HAS A LOZENGE THERE FOR YOU. OKAY. WE HAVE A PLETHORA OF QUESTIONS COMING YOUR WAY. DON'T FORGET, WE HAVE THE FOUR BOOKS PART OF THE QUARTET, THE ONE THAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT ON THE SCREEN. AUDIENCE LEFT AND STAGE RIGHT, AS THEY SAY. SO, AGAIN, LIGHT SHINES ON IN THE DARKNESS. THAT'S THE ONE THAT WE'RE GOING TO TALK ABOUT. AND THE ELK IN THE WOODS, THAT'S ACTUALLY A FAMOUS SCENE. AN IMAGE THAT PEOPLE CAN FIND OUT ABOUT AS WELL. SO, WE STARTED TALKING ABOUT IT OVER THE LAST COUPLE OF WEEKS, THE BOOKS. AND MOVING CHAPTER BY CHAPTER. WE'RE GOING TO BE GETTING INTO CHAPTER 3. FIRST, WE ALWAYS HAVE QUESTIONS FROM PEOPLE BASED ON OUR PROGRAMS IN THE LAST COUPLE OF WEEKS. HERE'S ONE PERSON THAT WROTE TO US. WE LIKE TO ADDRESS THINGS LIKE THIS. MAYBE WE CAN EXPLAIN A LITTLE BIT. THIS PERSON WRITES, IT SEEMS THAT EMAILS SUBMITTED TO FR. SPITZER'S UNIVERSE AT EWTN AREN'T GETTING ANSWERED. I SUBMITTED AN IMPORTANT EMAIL CONCERNING THE DEGREE OF OUR LORD'S GREAT SUFFERING AND MY SON'S GREAT SUFFERING WHILE LOSING HIS BATTLE WITH CANCER, BUT NO REPLY. THANK YOU, GOD BLESS, CHRIS. NOW WE WANT TO MENTION WE TRY TO ANSWER AS MANY QUESTIONS AS POSSIBLE ON THE AIR. AND WE CAN'T GUARANTEE THAT IF YOU DO ASK A QUESTION THAT IT WILL GET ANSWERED ON THE AIR. AND MAYBE SOME QUESTIONS ASKED UNIQUE TO THE PERSON'S LIFE MAY BE SIMILAR TO THE ISSUE OF WHAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT, HOW THE ANSWER MAY GO. DO YOU WANT TO TO SAY ANYTHING, FATHER, IN THAT REGARD? >> Father: SURE. AS I SAID IN OUR LAST PROGRAM AND RESPECT TO SLIGHTLY DIFFERENT QUESTION. YES, THERE CAN BE TIMES, FOR SURE WHEN WE THINK, OKAY. I'VE THE GOT A JUST PETITION THAT I'VE GIVEN TO THE LORD. HE DIDN'T ANSWER MY PRAYER. AND MY SON DIED OF CANCER. I'M GRIEVING TERRIBLY OVER THIS. AND OF COURSE, I UNDERSTAND THE GRIEF AND UNDERSTAND WHAT IT'S LIKE TO LOSE A BATTLE. BUT AT THE SAME TIME WE JUST HAVE TO HAVE, YOU KNOW, THAT TRUST IN THE LORD TO BELIEVE THAT, FIRST OF ALL, YOUR SON IS WITH HIM RIGHT NOW. AND SECONDLY, THAT HE KNOWS WHAT HE'S DOING IF HE'S NOT GOING TO PERFORM A MIRACLE. AND IN THE CONTEXT OF THAT LAST QUESTION. I GAVE THREE LITTLE PARAMETERS TO THINK ABOUT WHEN PRAYERS ARE NOT BEING ANSWERED. AND YOU THINK, OH, THIS IS SUCH A GREAT PRAYER, WHY WOULDN'T GOD ANSWER THIS ONE. NUMBER ONE. IT MAY HAVE SOMETHING TO DO WITH HIS SALVATION. WE DON'T KNOW WHAT HIS FUTURE WAS. WE DON'T KNOW WHAT WOULD HAVE HAPPENED IF HE RECOVERED FROM THE CANCER. WE DON'T KNOW WHAT WOULD HAVE HAPPENED IF HE HAD BEEN GIVEN A MIRACLE. SOMETHING MIGHT HAVE HAPPENED. AND IT MIGHT HAVE BEEN GOOD, AND IT MIGHT HAVE BEEN SOMETHING THAT WOULD INTERFERE WITH HIS SALVATION. GOD KNOWS BUT WE DO NOT KNOW. THE SECOND THING THAT'S IMPORTANT IS THAT YOUR SON, CHRIS, HIS SALVATION TOUCHES A LOT OF OTHER PEOPLE. AND SPECIFICALLY, NOT JUST THEM BUT THEIR SALVATION. AND THE LORD ALWAYS GOING TO MOVE DOWN THE PATH THAT IS GOING TO HELP PEOPLE AND HELP HIM TO HELP PEOPLE TOWARD THEIR SALVATION. HE'S NOT GOING TO ALLEVIATE SUFFERING THAT DOESN'T NECESSARILY, YOU KNOW, OR CERTAINLY THAT WOULD INTERFERE WITH HIS OR SOMEBODY ELSE'S SALVATION. AND THE THIRD THING THAT WE TALKED ABOUT WAS, JESUS CAN'T DO A MIRACLE EVERY SINGLE TIME A REQUEST GOES UP. THERE IS PROBABLY GOING UP FROM THE EARTH RIGHT NOW, AT LEAST A MILLION REQUESTS PER MINUTE. A MILLION REQUESTS PER MINUTE. NOW, JUST IMAGINE FOR A SECOND THAT THE LORD IS PERFORMING A MIRACLE TO TRY AND GIVE MIRACULOUS CURES TO ALL MILLION OF THESE REQUESTS PER MINUTE. FOR ALL INTENSIVE PURPOSES, THERE WOULD BE MORE MANIFESTATIONS OF MIRACLES ON THE EARTH THAN THERE WOULD BE NATURAL LAWS. AND OF COURSE, IF EVERYTHING IS GOING TO BE MIRACULOUS, YOU WOULDN'T KNOW FROM MOMENT TO MOMENT WHAT IS GOING TO HAPPEN TO YOU. I MEAN, AS A MATTER OF FACT, YOU COULD JUST LAY BACK ON YOUR LAURELS, RIGHT? EVERYBODY COULD. BECAUSE OF INSTEAD OF THINKING, I'M PROBABLY NOT GOING TO GET A MIRACLE. MAYBE I HAVE TO CONTEND WITH THIS SUFFERING, MAYBE I NEED TO LEARN SOMETHING FROM THIS SUFFERING, MAYBE I HAVE TO OFFER THIS SUFFERING UP FOR THE SOULS OF OTHER PEOPLE, MAYBE I HAVE, YOU KNOW, SOMETHING THAT I NEED TO LEARN IN TERMS OF BEING SHOCKED OUT OF MY SUPERFICIALITY AND LEARN TO LIVE WITH EMPATHY, HUMILITY AND INSTEAD OF THINKING, HEY, GOD CAN GIVE ME A MIRACLE. LORD, JUST RELIEVE THIS SUFFERING AND BOOM, IT GETS RELIEVED. GOOD. I DON'T HAVE TO LEARN ANYTHING FROM THE SUFFERING. I'M IN GREAT SHAPE. I'M ALREADY ON THE PATH TO SALVATION AND ANY TIME ANYTHING COMES UP, I'M GOING TO GET A MIRACLE. AND YOU SAY, ARE YOU BEING KIND OF SARCASTIC IN RESPONDING TO ME? NO. NO. I TOTALLY MEAN THIS LITERALLY. GOD CAN'T DO IT IF WE'RE GOING TO LEARN A MIRACLE EVERY MINUTE, IF WE'RE GOING TO LEARN SOMETHING FROM OUR SUFFERING. GOD CAN'T DO A MIRACLE EVERY MINUTE IF WE'RE EVEN GOING TO HAVE A SENSE OF WHAT'S COMING UP IN OUR FUTURE WHICH IS ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY IN ORDER FOR US TO BE FREE. GOD CAN'T DO THIS IF HE'S GOING TO LEAD AN OPTIMAL NUMBER OF PEOPLE TO SALVATION BECAUSE SUFFERING IS SO INTEGRAL TO DETACHING OURSELVES FROM OUR SELVES, DETACHING FROM PLEASURE AND SUPERFICIALITY AND HELPING US TO ATTACH TO WHAT'S REALLY IMPORTANT, FAITH, HOPE, AND LOVE, THE GREATEST OF THESE IS LOVE. NOW, MY ONE THOUGHT IS, WE HAVE DEFAULT TO WHAT EVERY CATHOLIC DEFAULTS TO. WHAT AM I SUPPOSED TO LEARN FROM THE SUFFERING. WHAT AM I SUPPOSED TO, WHAT'S MY SON SUPPOSED TO LEARN FROM THE SUFFERING. WHAT ARE WE AS A FAMILY SUPPOSED TO GET OUT OF THIS SUFFERING COLLECTIVELY TOWARD OUR SALVATION, TOWARDS LOVE, TOWARDS HUMILITY, TOWARDS EMPATHY, TOWARDS COMPASSION TO OTHERS. WHAT ARE WE SUPPOSED TO GET OUT OF THIS SUFFERING? VIZ A VIS, BURIED UNDER IT WELL. AND SHOULD WE OFFER THIS SUFFERING UNDER THE SOULS LIKE ST. THERESE OF LISEAUX OR ST. PAUL. SHOULDN'T WE OFFER THE SUFFERING FOR THE SOULS AROUND THE WORLD. FOR ALL INTENSIVE PURPOSES, WE WANT THEN THAT SUFFERING, GOD WANTS THAT SUFFERING THE NOT JUST WE. WE WANT THAT SUFFERING TO BE OPTIMALLY HELPFUL TO OUR SALVATION, TO OTHER'S SALVATION, OUR LOVE. OUR FAITH, OTHER'S LOVE, AND JUST TO GET US OUT OF SUPERFICIALITY, AWAY FROM THE SUPERFICIAL PATH. SUFFERING IS GOING TO BE INTEGRAL TO THAT. AND PLUS, WE DON'T WANT TO FORCE GOD TO SIMPLY, YOU KNOW, DO A MIRACLE EVERY SECOND IN ORDER FOR US TO BELIEVE THAT HE'S PRESENT, AND THAT HE'S FAITHFUL. WE DO HAVE TO TRUST IN HIM. EXACTLY AS THE LORD SAID, WE'RE GOING TO HAVE TO, MANY TIMES, TAKE UP OUR CROSS AND FOLLOW IN HIS FOOTSTEPS. >> LET ME ASK YOU A QUESTION. DO YOU THINK, SAY, MODERN MAN VS. MAYBE PEOPLE FROM THE PAST HAS A HIGHER EXPECTATION IN A SENSE THAT THEIR REQUESTS SHOULD BE ANSWERED THE WAY THEY WOULD LIKE IT ANSWERED IN THE SENSE THAT, YOU KNOW, THAT THAT'S THE WAY WE THINK TODAY. THIS IS FAIR, THIS SHOULD BE FAIR TO ME AS OPPOSED TO MAYBE WHAT MAYBE PEOPLE IN THE PAST, IN THE SENSE OF HOW THINGS WORKED WHEN THEY PRAYED AND THE RESPONSE THEY MAY HAVE GOTTEN OR NOT GOT FROM GOD OR HOW THEY INTERPRETED THAT. >> OH, I TOTALLY AGREE. TODAY, THE EXPECTATION LEVEL IS NOT JUST A LITTLE HIGHER. I THINK THE EXPECTATION LEVEL IS OVER THE TOP HIGHER. IT COMES FROM A VARIETY OF DIFFERENT THINGS. FIRST OF ALL, WE DO NOT KNOW THE SAME LEVEL OF HARDSHIP AS CHILDREN, AT LEAST, IN OUR CULTURE. THERE ARE OTHER CULTURES WHICH DO KNOW THE SAME LEVEL OF HARD SHIP THAT EVEN EXIST NATURAL DISASTER THE 1940'S AND THE 1950'S. AND THIS IDEA, YOU KNOW, THAT THERE'S MAYBE A QUICK FIX. YOU GO TO THE DOCTOR. OR MOM IS COMING BACK WITH A SOLUTION. OR IF YOU HAVE A PROBLEM AT SCHOOL, MAYBE I CAN GET SOMETHING MODIFIED. SO, I THINK THERE WAS A NEED, A GREATER NEED FOR SELF DISCIPLINE, A GREATER NEED FOR CREATIVITY IN THE MIDST OF SOME HARDSHIP. A GREATER NEED FOR ADAPTABILITY AND FLEXIBILITY TO MOVE AROUND AND MOVE THROUGH SITUATIONS OF GREAT CHALLENGE. I THINK THAT WAS THERE TO A MUCH GREATER DEGREE THEN THAN IT IS NOW. AND YOU KNOW, IT WAS A PRIVILEGE FOR CHILDREN TO GROW UP NOW, WITHOUT A NEED FOR CHALLENGE, SACRIFICE, FOR DISCIPLINE, FOR CREATIVITY TO MOVE THROUGH AND AROUND THE CHALLENGES. THERE'S SOMETHING GOOD ABOUT THAT, BUT, YES, THERE'S SOMETHING THAT UNDERCUTS THE DEVELOPMENT OF THE HUMAN BEING. AT THE SAME TIME, THERE'S SOMETHING THAT UNDERCUTS THE DEVELOPMENT OF THE HUMAN BEING. AND WE'VE SEEN COUNTLESS STUDIES AND NUMBERS THAT SHOW OUR KIDS ARE NOT AS FULLY DEVELOPED IN THOSE AREAS OF THE ABILITY TO MAKE SACRIFICES, THE ABILITY TO WORK WITH CHALLENGING SITUATIONS, THE ABILITY TO KEEP THE FRUSTRATION LOW, THE ABILITY TO BE CREATIVE WHEN FACED WITH A CHALLENGE. THESE KIND OF THINGS DEFINITELY HAVE BEEN, YOU KNOW, WELL, LET'S SAY, ESSENTIAL DISCIPLINES OF LIFE WHICH HAVE BEEN MORE OR LESS UNDERMINED. AND WHEN YOU TOP THAT OFF, WITH FEELINGS OF ENTITLEMENT, YOU KNOW, I'M ENTITLE TO A CARE. I'M ENTITLED TO MONEY THAT OTHER PEOPLE HAVE. ET CETERA. ET CETERA. I'M ENTITLED TO THE QUICK FIX. THIS LEADS TO WHAT I CALL THE VERY, VERY EARLY FRUSTRATIONS SYNDROME AND THE EARLY ENVY SYNDROME. AND WHAT I MEAN BY THAT IS WHEN YOU HAVE A SENSE OF QUICK FIX AND ENTITLEMENT, WHAT KINDS UP HAPPENING IS THAT YOUR FRUSTRATION LEVEL, WHICH MIGHT HAVE BEEN AT AN EIGHT FOR A KID MAYBE IN THE 1930'S AND 1940'S WHO HAS BEEN AROUND THE PROVERBIAL BLOCK OR DEPRESSION, YOU KNOW, 8 OR 9, OR SO-CALLED GREATEST GENERATION AS TOM BROKAW PUT IT. BUT NOW THAT'S BEEN MOVED TO TWO OR THREE. AND THEN, WITH THE FRUSTRATION LEVEL, PEOPLE ARE JUST FLASH ANGRY. I GOT TO KEEP A COOL HEAD, I GOT TO GET AROUND THE CHALLENGE. I KNOW THERE'S WAYS TO DEAL WITH THIS, THINGS TO LEARN FROM THIS. THAT SORT OF DISCIPLINE, THAT SORT OF THINKING PROCESS AND CREATIVE PROCESS IS THINKING AND WHAT'S HAPPENING IS A QUICK FRUSTRATION, QUICK FLASH OF ANGER. AND THE OTHER PROBLEM WITH ENTITLEMENT IS THE SIN OF ENVY. YOU KNOW, IF SOMEBODY ELSE HAS SOMETHING I DON'T HAVE, WHAT WE SAY IS INSTEAD OF THINKING, OKAY. IS THIS REALLY WORTH IT. DOES THIS PERSON HAVE AN ADVANTAGE, THE IMMEDIATE THING TO LEAD TO, THAT'S NOT FAIR. LIFE SHOULD BE PERFECTLY FAIR AND NOBODY SHOULD BE ADVANTAGED IN THE WAY THAT I'M NOT ADVANTAGED. ONCE YOU LEAP TO THAT CONCLUSION, THEN IT'S OKAY NOT ONLY TO BE ENVIOUS BUT TO BE RESENTFUL AND HATEFUL AND THE OTHER PERSON, BECAUSE THEY HAVE THAT ADVANTAGE AND THEN TO SEEK SOME SORT OF RETRIBUTION AND TAKE AWAY THE ADVANTAGE THAT THEY HAVE. RIGHT? AND PEOPLE SAY, WELL, HOW COME PEOPLE THINK THAT CHEATING IS OKAY TODAY. BECAUSE ENVY JUSTIFIES IT! YOU KNOW, PEOPLE WHO ARE SMARTER, I HAVE A RIGHT TO HAVE THE SAME GRADE YOU DO. THEREFORE, I BETTER CHEAT TO GET IT. AND YOU LOOK AT IT AND YOU GO, HOW CAN THIS BE HAPPENING. AND THE JOSEPHSON FOUNDATION SHOWS PRETTY CLEARLY THIS DECLINE OF INETHICAL THINKING AND VIRTUE DISCIPLINE. RIGHT? IT'S PRETTY CLEAR FROM THOSE STUDIES THAT IT'S BEING LOWERED, AND IT'S BEING LOWERED BECAUSE OF THE QUICK FIX AND ENTITLEMENT. YOU HIT THE NAIL RIGHT ON THE HEAD. >> Doug: THAT'S INTERESTING. IT MADE ME THINK OF THAT. AND ALSO, JUST THE IDEA. AND DO YOU SEE, I DON'T WANT TO GO TOO FAR AFIELD. BUT DO YOU SEE A CONNECTION AS WELL TO THE DROP IN THE ETHICAL SIDE IN RELATION TO EITHER A DIFFERENT VIEW OF GOD'S ROLE IN OUR LIFE, OR THERE ISN'T A GOD, OR THOSE KIND OF THINGS? >> Father: YEAH, YEAH. I MEAN, THAT'S ANOTHER SOURCE OF ETHICAL DECLINE. BECAUSE IF YOU ARE REALLY HAZY ABOUT THE FACT THAT GOD IS REAL, PRESENT IN YOUR LIFE, LOVES YOU AND HAS GREAT EXPECTATIONS FOR YOU, IS TRYING TO CALL YOU TO A LIFE OF LOVE AND VIRTUE, IF YOU DON'T HAVE THAT SENSE OF HOW REAL AND PRESENT GOD IS, OH, I WOULD SAY THEN YOU WON'T FEEL VERY RESPONSIBLE TO A MORAL AGENCY OUTSIDE OF YOURSELF. AND THAT KIND OF MORAL, SENSE OF MORAL AGENCY, YOU KNOW, A CONSCIENCE THAT REALLY HAS A GOD BEHIND IT, TO WHICH I AM RESPONSIBLE, IF YOU DON'T HAVE THAT SENSE, YEAH, I WOULD SAY THAT WOULD SEVERELY WEAKEN OUR MORAL SENSIBILITY. EVEN EMMANUEL KANT WOULD AGREE WITH THIS. NOT JUST ST. THOMAS AQUINAS, I MEAN, YOU GET PEOPLE WHO SAY, YES. THE IDEA THAT GOD IS PRESENT TO CONSCIENCE IS VERY IMPORTANT TO GIVING CONSCIENCE ITS APPROPRIATE SWAY. YES, CONSCIENCE CAN MAKE US FEEL GUILTY OR MAKE US FEEL ENNOBLED IF WE'RE DOING SOMETHING BAD, GOOD, RESPECTIVELY. BUT CONSCIENCE, THE FEELINGS OF CONSCIENCE, THE POWER OF THEM IS THE RECOGNITION OF THE VOICE BEHIND THE GUILT. THE VOICE BEHIND THE NOBILITY. IF IT'S GOD'S VOICE, IF IT IS GOD WHO IS PRESENT IN THOSE FEELINGS OF DEEP GUILT OR SELF ALIENATION WHEN I'M DOING SOMETHING WRONG OR FEELINGS OF NOBILITY, OF BEING, YOU KNOW, ONE WITH THE PROJECT AND THE WILL OF GOD, IF IT'S HIS VOICE, OH, IT ABSOLUTELY ENHANCES THE SENSE OF ETHICAL RESPONSIBILITY. THERE WAS A VERY, VERY GOOD STUDY THAT WAS DONE BY A FELLOW NAMED PARBARTIA AND 10 OTHER AUTHORS. STRANGELY, IT WAS PUBLISHED IN, LIKE, A JOURNAL OF BUSINESS. BUT IT WAS A STUDY OF ETHICS AND RELIGION. HE REALLY HAS AN EXCELLENT SCHOLARLY APPARATUS. AND WHAT HE SHOWS IN THIS STUDY IS THAT PEOPLE WHO ARE RELIGIOUS IN ORIENTATION AND THAT IS TO SAY, THAT PEOPLE BELIEVE GOD IS PRESENT AND REAL IN THEIR LIVES, IS IT NOT, CAN THEY THINK OF ETHICS BETTER, IT'S WHEN THEY CONFRONT AN ETHICAL SITUATION. WILL THEY DO THE WRONG THING OR NOT DO THE WRONG THING. THE RELIGIOUS PERSON HAS A MUCH HIGHER POSSIBILITY OF REFUSING TO DO THE WRONG THING, ACCORDING TO THEIR CONSCIENCE AT THE MOMENT OF THE DECISION. AND WHAT HE FOUND IS THAT THE NON RELIGIOUS PERSON DID NOT. SO, ABSOLUTELY, THE FELLOW'S LAST NAME IS PARBARTIA. IT'S A VERY WELL KNOWN STUDY AND I CAN SEND IT OVER TO PEOPLE, IF YOU WANT, IF YOU JUST SEND ME AN EMAIL. >> Doug: OKAY. FATHER, I DIDN'T WANT TO GO TOO FAR AFIELD BUT IT STRUCK ME THAT THERE WERE TOPICS IN QUESTIONS THAT YOU BROUGHT OUT THAT WERE GOOD FOR US TO TALK ABOUT. OKAY. HERE'S ANOTHER EMAIL FOR US, THIS IS FROM LAST WEEK. THE LAST EPISODE, WHO GOD IS AND IS NOT, I AM HAVING TROUBLE SEEING YOUR VIEWPOINT THAT OUR GOD IS NOT A "DISGUSTED GOD". YOU TALK ABOUT THAT IN THE BOOK. WE SEE SO MANY CRUEL AND PERVERSE ACTIONS IN OUR WORLD THROUGH OUR MAINSTREAM MEDIA, IT'S HARD TO SEE THAT HE WOULDN'T BE DISGUSTED. PLEASE, CLARIFY THIS FURTHER. ANN LEE . THIS IS SOMETHING THAT YOU SPOKE ABOUT ON THE SHOW AND WAS FEATURED IN YOUR BOOK. >> Father: AND MAYBE I MIGHT START WITH A GOOD OLE DISTINCTION BY ST. AUGUSTINE AND FOLLOW UP WITH THOMAS AQUINAS. JUDGING THE ACT VS. JUDGING THE PERSON. AND IN MY BOOK THERE, I WAS REALLY TALKING ABOUT GOD JUDGING PEOPLE, THE PERSON AND SPECIFICALLY, YOU, THE SUFFERER. SO, DOES GOD JUDGE OUR ACTIONS? OF COURSE HE JUDGES OUR ACTIONS. AND OF COURSE, WE ARE JUDGING OTHER PEOPLES' ACTIONS AND ARE ALLOWED TO DO THAT. YOU KNOW, WHEN IT COMES, YOU KNOW, CAN GOD BE DISGUSTED BY THE ACTIONS I'M DOING. SURE. CAN GOD BE WORRIED ABOUT AN ACTION THAT I'M DOING. ABSOLUTELY. NO QUESTION ABOUT IT. AND I USED ANALOGY, ABOUT A YEAR AGO ON THE SHOW HERE. AND GOD IS LIKE A FATHER WHO WALKS INTO THE BEDROOM OF HIS LITTLE BABY AND HE NOTICES THAT THERE'S A SNAKE. LET'S CALL THAT SNAKE A SIN, RIGHT NEXT TO HIS BABY IN THE BASSINET. AND OF COURSE, WHAT DOES HE DO. HE DOESN'T GET MAD AT THE BABY, HE DOESN'T GET DISGUSTED AT THE BABY, THAT THE BABY HAS, AS IT WERE, NOW, OF COURSE, THE BABY IS INNOCENT, I KNOW THAT. BUT THE POINT THAT I'M TRYING TO GET TO SAY GOD'S ATTITUDE. HE'S MUCH MORE FOCUSED ON THE SNAKE AND GETTING THAT DEVIL, GETTING THAT SNAKE OUT OF THERE. HE'S WORRIED ABOUT THE BABY. BUT OF COURSE, HE'S DISGUSTED BY THE SNAKE. AND THE SAME THING HOLDS TRUE WITH ST. AUGUSTINE AND THOMAS AQUINAS, THE DISTINCTION. YES, OF COURSE, GOD CAN BE DISGUSTED, AS IT WERE, BY VIOLATIONS OF THE COMMANDMENTS. BUT IS GOD DISGUSTED AT YOU? BECAUSE YOU ARE FALLING FOR THIS SIN. AND THE ANSWER IS, NO. NOWHERE. NO. IN THE NEW TESTAMENT NOWHERE DO YOU SEE THAT GOD IS REVOTED BY A PERSON, DISGUSTED BY A PERSON OR SOMETHING OF THAT NATURE. TRUE, THERE HAVE BEEN PEOPLE, SOME VERY WELL KNOWN PREACHERS, RIGHT? JONATHAN EDWARDS, FOR EXAMPLE, WHO USED THIS ANALOGY, VERY AND -- >> Doug: FIRE AND BRIMSTONE. >> FIRE AND BRIMSTONE PREACHERS HERE IN THE UNITED STATES AND THE NEW WORLD. AND HE WOULD SAY, OH, YEAH, GOD IS DISGUSTED AND REVOTED BY YOU. BUT YOU ARE NOT GOING TO FIND THAT IN JESUS. NO, YOU ARE NOT GOING TO FIND THAT IN THE NEW TESTAMENT. YOU ARE NOT GOING TO FIND THAT DIRECTED AT A HUMAN BEING, IN THE GOSPEL. WHAT YOU ARE GOING TO FIND OF COURSE IS THAT GOD, HE CAN BE DISGUSTED BY AN ACTION. BUT NEVER EVER BY ONE OF HIS BELOVED. NEVER EVER BY EVEN A BELOVED WHO HAS ALLOWED THEMSELVES TO BE SEDUCED INTO THE DARKNESS BY HORRIBLE AND HEINOUS AND DISGUSTING ACTS. WHAT HE'S GOING TO DO IS TRY AT ALL TIMES TO RESCUE THEM, TO BRING THEM OUT OF THERE. AND HE'S GOING TO DO IT BY ANY MEANS OF PEDAGOGY. OF COURSE, THAT'S GOOD. BUT HE CAN USE, HE CAN BE SCARY IN THE SENSE OF TRYING TO FRIGHTEN BY THE SIN AND NOT FRIGHTEN US BY HIM, BY HIS PRESENCE. HE IS ALL YES SAYS ST. PAUL, NOT NO. HE IS ALL LOVING, NOT DISGUSTED. HE'S NOT, THE PRODIGAL SON'S FATHER DOESN'T RUSH OUT TO MEET THE BOY AND GO, OH MY GOSH, YOU HAVE BEEN LIVING WITH THE PIGS? I'M DISGUSTED. GET OUTTA HERE. OH MY GOSH, YOU SPENT ALL THE MONEY ON PROSTITUTES? YOU ARE KIDDING ME. YOU GOT TO GET OUT OF HERE. YOU ARE RITUALLY IMPURE, YOU HAVE EMBARRASSED ME, EMBARRASSED GOD, EMBARRASSED THE RELIGION. I'M TIRED OF YOU. THE PRODIGAL SON'S FATHER, WHO REPRESENTS GOD, RUSHES UP TO HIM, THROWS HIS ARMS AROUND HIM AND HE KISSES HIM. JUST FOR A QUICK DISTINCTION BETWEEN ACT AND PERSON, YES, GOD CAN BE DISGUSTED BY BLACK AND DARK ACTIONS AND JESUS HAS DEFEATED SATAN. BUT HE'S NOT DISGUSTED BY ANYBODY, EVEN THOSE PERPETRATING THE DARKEST OF DARK THINGS. HE'S TRYING TO GET THEM OUT OF THEIR MISERY AND DARKNESS. OUT OF A SHEER ACT OF UNCONDITIONAL LOVE. >> Doug: VERY GOOD. AND THAT'S SOMETHING WE SHOULD ALL TAKE TO HEART. AND FATHER, WE'RE GOING TO TAKE A BREAK HERE, AS WE HAVE TO, AT EWTN. AS "FR. SPITZER'S UNIVERSE" CONTINUES. MUCH MORE AHEAD AS WE TALK ABOUT THE LIGHT SHINES ON IN THE DARKNESS AND GET INTO THE CHAPTER ITSELF. STAY WITH US. ♪ ♪ >> Doug: WE'RE CONTINUING ON "FR. SPITZER'S UNIVERSE", COVERING THE BOOK, THE LIGHT SHINES ON IN THE DARKNESS. NOW, WE'RE MOVING TO CHAPTER 3. OKAY. FATHER, THERE YOU ARE. OKAY. LET ME ASK YOU A MINUTE TO SET THAT UP, AND A COUPLE OF THINGS IN THE CHAPTER AS WE GET INTO THAT. ONE OF THE THINGS, RIGHT IN THE BEGINNING OF THE CHAPTER, IT TALKS ABOUT THE IDEA. AND WE HEAR ABOUT THIS, AS SOMETHING THAT COMES UP MANY TIMES THAT HAS TO DO WITH BASICALLY JOB AND THE STORY OF JOB. AND PEOPLE SAY, OH, MY LORD, THIS GUY HAS PROBLEMS LIKE JOB. HOW CAN THIS PERSON WHO IS SUCH A WONDERFUL PERSON SUFFERING SO BAD. AND IN SOME WAYS, MANY TODAY FEEL LIKE WE'RE BEING TREATED LIKE JOB. AFTER ALL OF THE GOOD THINGS THAT I'VE BEEN DOING, HOW COME THINGS AREN'T WORKING OUT SO WELL. SO, CHAPTER 3, I'M WITH YOU ALWAYS, THIRD FOUNDATION, RECOGNIZING GOD'S PRESENCE IN OUR SUFFERING. AND THEN, HERE, YOU TALK ABOUT THE OLD TESTAMENT VIEW OF SUFFERING. AND WHY DON'T YOU TELL US A LITTLE BIT, WHAT'S THE OLD TESTAMENT VIEW OF SUFFERING. >> Father: YEAH, THERE WERE SEVERAL STRANDS OF INTERPRETATION OF SUFFERING IN THE OLD TESTAMENT, A LOT OF THEM REPRESENTATIVE, IN JOB, AND THAT'S PROBABLY THE BEST BOOK TO USE. IT'S A WISDOM BOOK AND IT'S NOT A PROPHETIC BOOK, NOT A HISTORICAL BOOK. IT'S A WISDOM BOOK. IT'S ABOUT A CHARACTER. >> Doug: FATHER, LET ME JUST ASK YOU THIS QUESTION FOR SO MANY OF US OUT THERE. YOU ARE SAYING, YOU MAKE A DISTINCTION AND FOR MANY PEOPLE WHO MAY NOT UNDERSTAND, WHAT'S THE POINT OF THE DISTINCTION THAT YOU ARE MAKING? YOU ARE SAYING IT'S NOT THE PROPHETIC -- >> Father: OH, OKAY. YOU DON'T WANT TO TAKE THIS AS HISTORICALLY LITERAL. JOB IS A STORY THAT'S MEANT TO CONVEY WISDOM. IF IT WERE LIKE A HISTORICAL BOOK AND YOU WANT TO ACCREDIT IT WITH SOME SORT OF HISTORICAL VERACITY. AND THE POINT HERE, WHAT I WRITE WISDOM LITERATURE. YOU ARE GOING TO WRITE A STORY AND THERE'S A MESSAGE IN THE STORY AND JOB OF COURSE IS PROBABLY ONE OF THE BEST KNOWN PIECES OF WISDOM LITERATURE THAT WE HAVE. SO, WE'RE NOT TALKING ABOUT THE REAL PERSON JOB WHO LIVED AT X-Y-Z TIME. WHAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT IS THE CHARACTER JOB. AND EVERYBODY IN THE OLD TESTAMENT TIMES KNOW THIS IS NOT HISTORICAL, THE CHARACTER JOB IN THE STORY. AND THEY REALIZE THAT AND THEY REALIZE THAT JOB STARTS OFF AS A WISDOM FIGURE. AND ALSO, THERE'S GOING TO BE ALL KIND OF JOB'S FRIENDS, WISDOM FIGURES WHO ARE GOING TO GIVE OTHER ADVICE ABOUT THE INTERPRETATION OF JOB'S SUFFERING. AND THE WAY THAT THE BOOK IS WRITTEN OR THE BOOK OF JOB IS WRITTEN IS THAT JOB IS CONFIGURED AS THE JUST MAN. AND THE REASON FOR THAT IS, THE QUESTION THAT THE ISRAELITES ARE ASKING IS, WELL, WHY WOULD A JUST MAN SUFFER. AND WHY WOULD THEY BE ASKING THAT QUESTION. BECAUSE IF YOU LOOK AT THE EARLIER TEACHING, BEFORE JOB, AND THIS IS BEFORE 700BC. SO, IF YOU LOOK AT THE EARLIER TEACHING IN THE OLD TESTAMENT, YOU ARE GOING TO NOTICE THAT THERE'S AN IDEA OF SUFFERING, RETRIBUTION FOR PAST SINS. SO, THE EARLIEST IDEA, WHY DO PEOPLE SUFFER IS THAT SOMEBODY HAD TO SIN. AND IT USED TO BE THOUGHT THAT, WELL, IF YOU HAVE A GUY WHO IS VERY PROSPEROUS, THEN SOMEBODY WAS DOING GOOD THINGS. WHY? BECAUSE GOD DOESN'T EVER WORK THROUGH NATURAL FORCES BECAUSE IN OLD TESTAMENT TEACHING, THERE'S NOT AN IDEA THAT GOD WORKS THROUGH NATURAL FORCES THAT CAN KIND OF BE OPERATIVE, YOU KNOW, INDEPENDENTLY OF GOD. GOD PUTS THEM IN MOTION TO OPERATE AND PERPETUAL AND CONSISTENT SORT OF WAY. THEY DON'T HAVE THAT IDEA. THEY THINK GOD IS CONTINUOUSLY INTERACTING AND THEY THINK THAT GOD IS JUST, THEY HAVE THE IDEA THAT SUFFERING IS OPPOSED TO LOVE, YOU KNOW, AND IS OPPOSED THEREFORE, IN JUSTICE TO THE JUST MAN. AND THE ONLY WAY TO SOLVE THAT, SOMEBODY HAD TO SIN. AND OF COURSE, PEOPLE SAY, WELL, THAT GUY DIDN'T SIN. AND WE SEE IN LEVITICUS AND EXODUS, SEVERAL PASSAGES, OH, THAT'S BECAUSE HIS FATHER SINNED AND HE'S PAYING FOR THIS. WELL, THE FATHER DIDN'T SIN. OH, THAT'S BECAUSE HIS GRANDFATHER SINNED. NO. NO. GRANDFATHER. NO, NO. IT WAS HIS GREAT GRANDFATHER. AND YOU GO DOWN TO THE FOURTH GENERATION. SO, GOD IS STILL PUNISHING SINS DOWN TO THE FOURTH GENERATION. NOW, BY THE TIME YOU GET TO JOB, RIGHT, THINGS HAVE DEVELOPED. SO, PEOPLE ARE GOING, OKAY. OKAY. IT'S TRUE, MAYBE SUFFERING IS A PUNISHMENT FOR SIN. BUT IS THERE ANYTHING ELSE HERE? YOU KNOW, IS THERE ANY OTHER POSSIBLE EXPLANATION AS TO WHY THIS SUPER JUST MAN IS SUFFERING. HE DIDN'T DO ANYTHING. ANY SINS. DOESN'T LOOK LIKE HIS FATHER COMMITTED ANY SINS. THE STORY IS ALL SET UP SO BASICALLY, YOU ARE GOING TO ELUDE THAT OLD VIEW, THAT OLD TESTAMENT VIEW THAT'S BEING DEVELOPED. AND OF COURSE, TWO ADDITIONAL ANSWERS ARE COMING OUT RIGHT AT THE BEGINNING. THE FIRST IS THAT THE DEVIL IS HAVING A CONTEST WITH GOD. NOW, IN 700BC, THE IDEA OF THE DEVIL IS STILL NOT THE MALEVOLENT SPIRIT. IT'S COMING AROUND. BUT JESUS IS GOING TO GIVE THIS VIEW OF THE DEVIL A HUGE BOOST. BUT PRIOR TO THE TIME OF JESUS, AND PRIOR TO THE TIME OF DANIEL, THE IDEA OF THE DEVIL AS BEING A PURE MALEVOLENT SPIRIT AND BY THE DAY, DAVID'S BOOK IS VERY LATE IN THE OLD TESTAMENT. BUT PRIOR TO THAT TIME, THE DEVIL WAS KIND OF THOUGHT LIKE A LAWYER ANGEL, ADVOCATE ANGEL IN THE COURT SYSTEM, YOU KNOW, OF THE HEAVENLY COURT. AND HE WOULD BE, HE WOULD ARGUE THE CASE AGAINST JOB. AND SO, WE WANT TO BE SURE THAT JOB IS REALLY JUST. SO, YOU SAY HE'S JUST AND YOU TREATED HIM WITH PROSPERITY. I'M THE DEVIL AND I'M GOING TO TAKE ALL THAT AWAY FROM HIM. AND WE'LL JUST SEE HOW MR. JOB DOES. AND SO, YOU KNOW, OF COURSE, GOD WANTS THIS TO BE A FAIR COURT BATTLE. SO, HE SAYS, OKAY. OKAY. I'M GOING TO TAKE IT AWAY FROM JOB, PROSPERITY. AND ALL OF THE VARIOUS AFFLICTIONS HAPPEN TO JOB. THAT'S ONE THING. AND JESUS IS NOT GOING TO RETAIN THAT EITHER. SO, JESUS DOES NOT RETAIN THE VIEW THAT SUFFERING IS A PUNISHMENT FROM GOD AND CERTAINLY NOT TO THE FOURTH GENERATION. SO, THAT'S NOT, HE'S GOING TO NOT APPROPRIATE THAT. OKAY. NUMBER TWO, JESUS IS NOT GOING FOR THE FIRST JOB EXPLANATION THAT THE DEVIL WAS IN KIND OF A LEGAL ARGUMENT WITH GOD AND BASICALLY, HE SAYS, I NEED TO REALLY TEST JOB'S FAITHFULNESS TO SEE WHETHER HE WAS REALLY JUST. AND LOOK, SEE, HE'S BREAKING DOWN ALREADY. HE'S NOT THE PERSON THAT YOU SAY ET CETERA. SO, JESUS DOESN'T GO FOR THAT. THERE'S A THIRD, THOUGH. WHEN WE GET TO THE ELIHU DISCOURSES IN JOB. THESE ARE THE LATER DISCOURSES. NOW, WE HAVE A LATER FIGURE AND DOESN'T BELONG TO THE ORIGINAL BOOK OF JOB. THE BOOK OF JOB HAS THREE PHASES IN IT. AND LAST PHASE PROBABLY COMES AROUND 400BC TO 500BC AND INTRODUCED TO IMPORTANT WISDOM SPECULATOR AND WE DON'T KNOW WHO THAT WISDOM WRITER IS. ANYWAY, HE INTRODUCES THE ELIHU DISCOURSES. AND ELIHU HAS TWO EXPLANATIONS. NUMBER ONE, SUFFERING IS MEDICINAL. AND JESUS IS DEFINITELY GOING TO RETAIN THAT VIEW SO THAT THE VIEW OF SUFFERING IS NOT OPPOSED TO LOVE NECESSARILY. SO, THE LATER VIEW IS THAT NO SUFFERING COULD ACTUALLY LEAD TO LOVE. SUFFERING CAN LEAD TO A BENEFIT TO JOB AND SUFFERING CAN LEAD TO JOB'S INTENTIONS AND THERE'S SOMETHING MEDICINAL IN THAT, AND THAT COMES OUT IN THE FIRST ELIHU DISCOURSES. AND THE SECOND DISCOURSE, YOU GET THE FINAL EXPLANATION IN THE OLD TESTAMENT. AND JESUS RETAINS THIS ONE. YOU HAVE TO BE AS A HUMAN BEING REALLY, REALLY, REALLY HUMBLE BEFORE GOD. AND YOU ARE GOING TO HAVE TO TRUST IN GOD'S JUST AND LOVE BECAUSE YOU SIMPLY DON'T KNOW. AND SO, REMEMBER, ELIHU CHASTISES JOB. HE SAYS, JOB, WHEN YOU SAY YOU HAVE BEEN TREATED UNFAIRLY WHO DO YOU THINK YOU ARE? YOU THINK YOU KNOW-IT-ALL. YOU REALLY THINK YOU KNOW WHO YOU TOUCH AND WHO YOU ARE GOING TO TOUCH AND HOW YOUR LIFE INFLUENCES THE WORLD? AND HOW SUFFERING IMPACTS YOUR LIFE? YOU REALLY THINK YOU KNOW-IT-ALL? YOU REALLY DON'T KNOW ANYTHING. YOU ARE SO LIMITED. YOU ARE COMPLETELY OVER YOUR SKIS -- HE DOESN'T SAY THAT OBVIOUSLY -- BUT BASICALLY, YOUR ATTITUDE IS COMPLETELY ARROGANT AND HAVE YOU TO STOP THIS RIGHT NOW. AND THE FACT THAT YOU ARE WHINING THAT YOU HAVE BEEN TREATED UNFAIRLY, FROM ALL OF THE VIEWPOINTS, IT LOOKS TO BE SO. HOW DO YOU KNOW WHAT THE LORD CAN DO. HOW DO YOU KNOW THE GOOD THAT HE CAN BRING FROM IT FOR YOU, AND FOR THE PEOPLE AROUND YOU. HOW DO YOU KNOW? OF COURSE, THAT'S KIND OF THE END, RIGHT? JOB ENDS ON THIS THING OF, OH, YOU BETTER BE HUMBLE BECAUSE YOU DON'T KNOW. YOU ARE MERELY A CREATURE. NOW, JESUS KIND OF SAYS YES, THAT'S IMPORTANT TO HAVE THAT HUMILITY AND THAT OBEDIENCE TO TAKE UP YOUR CROSS AND FOLLOW IN HIS STEPS. BUT JESUS MAKES TWO SIGNIFICANT ALTERATIONS TO THE BOOK OF JOB. REMEMBER, IN THE OLD TESTAMENT, EVEN AT THE TIME OF THE ELIHU DISCOURSES, YOU DO NOT YET HAVE A VIEW OF RESURRECTION. IT'S NOT THERE. THIS IS GOING TO BE COMING MUCH LATER. AND PROBABLY AROUND 300, LET'S SAY, BC. AND THEN, YOU ARE GOING TO START TO SEE THE INFLUENCE OF HELLENISTIC THOUGHT WITH RESPECT TO THE IMMORTALITY OF THE SOUL AND THE INFLUENCE OF THE LATER PROPHETS, SPECIFICALLY, DANIEL, IN HIS VIEW OF A RESURRECTION AND OF COURSE, THE BOOK OF MACCABEES WHICH BY THAT TIME, CERTAINLY BELIEVES IN AN AFTER LIFE WITH GOD AND SO FORTH. SO, THIS IDEA OF RESURRECTION IS NOT AROUND IN THE BOOK OF JOB. JESUS IS GOING TO MAKE A RADICAL CORRECTION OF THAT. BECAUSE SUFFERING IS NOT ABOUT THIS WORLD ALONE. SUFFERING IS ABOUT THE RESURRECTION INTO ETERNAL LOVE AND JOY. THEREFORE, SUFFERING FOR JESUS HAS A LOT TO DO WITH ETERNAL RESURRECTION AND JOY. IT'S GOING TO FIRST OF ALL PURIFY OUR SOULS IN FAITH AND IN LOVE SO THAT WE'RE NOT LEFT AT THE STAGE OF PERPETUAL CHILD, YOU KNOW. BUT WE'RE READY TO RISE TO A CHALLENGE. READY TO SACRIFICE OURSELVES FOR SOMETHING NOBLE. READY TO SACRIFICE OURSELVES TO JESUS, JUST IN SHEER OBEDIENCE TO THE FATHER. REALIZING IN ALL OF THE SACRIFICES AND ALL THIS PURIFICATION OF FAITH AND ALL THIS PURIFICATION OF LOVE, WE'RE MOVING EVERY MORE CLOSELY AND BEING EVER MORE DEEPLY PURIFIED IN OUR SUFFERING TOWARD SALVATION. THAT'S NOT PRESENT IN THE BOOK OF JOB. JUST BECAUSE YOU DON'T HAVE A VIEW OF RESURRECTION, BUT THEY DON'T HAVE A VIEW OF RESURRECTION INTO UNCONDITIONAL LOVE INTO THE HUMAN COMMUNITY. THEY SIMPLY DON'T HAVE IT. AND OF COURSE, JESUS HAS TO RECONFIGURE SUFFERING, THE CROSS IS ALWAYS SEEN WITHIN THE CONTEXT OF THE RESURRECTION FOR JESUS AND NOT SO FOR THE BOOK OF JOB. AND SECOND ELEMENT. YOU GO ON AND ON, AND THIS IS REALLY IMPORTANT THAT IN THE BOOK OF JOB, BECAUSE YOU DON'T HAVE THIS IDEA OF SUFFERING FOR THE SAKE OF THE ETERNAL SALVATION, YOU ARE NOT GOING TO HAVE THE IDEA OF OFFERING UP, EXCUSE ME, OFFERING UP SUFFERING FOR SOMEBODY ELSE'S SALVATION, OFFERING UP SUFFERING FOR THE CHURCH OR THE MYSTICAL BODY. THAT WHOLE IDEA REALLY KIND OF ASSUMES AGAIN, THE RESURRECTION. BUT THEN, THE SELF OFFERING CAN BE FREELY MADE. I OFFER MYSELF, JESUS TAKES THE DOCTRINE OF THE RESURRECTION, PUTS IT OVER THE FOUR SUFFERING OF SERVANTS ON ISAIAH 15:50 AND DYING WORDS, PSALM 22, MY GOD, MY GOD, WHY HAVE YOU FORSAKEN ME, THE SONG OF THE SUFFERING SERVANT AND LEADS TO THE RESURRECTION, THAT LEADS TO THE SALVATION OF THE WORLD, PAST PRESENT AND FUTURE, JEW, GENTILE, ET CETERA. WHEN YOU SEE THIS THEN. NOW, SUFFERING HAS ITS FULL CONTEXT. BUT IT'S NOT THERE IN JOB. SO, JESUS ONLY RETAINS TWO DIMENSIONS OF THE INTERPRETATION OF JOB, THE ONE THAT IS MEDICINAL, AND THE SECOND ONE BE HUMBLE, YOU DON'T KNOW. THIS IS THE SAKE OF THE RESURRECTION AND HELPING OTHERS TOWARD THE RESURRECTION, GROWTH, FAITH AND LOVE. AND SECONDLY, SO WE CAN MAKE OF OURSELVES, OUR LIVES AND OUR SUFFERING A SELF OFFERING TO GOD WHICH IS AN ACT OF LOVE WHICH GOD CAN POUR UPON THE WORLD AS NEEDED FOR THE SALVATION OF THE WORLD. THAT'S REALLY WHAT JESUS IS DOING. AND IT'S A MUCH MORE COMPLETE VIEW OF SUFFERING. THEN, OF COURSE, HE REALLY DOES SUPERCEDE COMPLETELY THE IDEA OF RETRIBUTION DOWN TO THE FOURTH GENERATION. >> Doug: WELL, YOU MENTIONED IN HERE, THREE COMMON MISINTERPRETATIONS THAT COMPLY OF FALSE NOTATION AND GOD USES SUFFERING TO TOUGHEN US UP AND GOD IS INDIFFERENT TO OUR PAIN AND CHALLENGES. THAT'S JUST A FALSE UNDERSTANDING. LATER IN THE BOOK, TALKED UNDER THE SECTION OF SUFFERING IN THE SIN OF ADAM. IT SAYS HERE, YET, THE QUESTION REMAINS. WHY DIDN'T JESUS AND THE BOOK OF JOB APPEAL TO THE SIN OF ADAM TO EXPLAIN SUFFERING. WHY DID THEY GIVE SO MANY OTHER ALTERNATIVE EXPLANATIONS. >> Father: SOMETIMES PEOPLE TRY TO GIVE THE SIMPLE ANSWER OF, TO THE PROBLEM OF SUFFERING. AND THEY GO, WELL, THE REASON THEY ARE SUFFERING IS BECAUSE ADAM COMMITTED THE ORIGINAL SIN AND RIGHT AFTER ADAM COMMITTED THE ORIGINAL SIN, THEN SUFFERING IS GOING TO BE IN THE WORLD AND ENMITY BETWEEN GOD AND NATURE BECAUSE OF ADAM'S SIN SO WE JUST HAVE TO EXPECT THERE'S A LOT OF SUFFERING. END OF STORY. NO, NO. THAT'S NOT THE END OF THE STORY IS WHAT I'M SAYING. NO, NO, NO. THIS GOES ALL THE WAY BACK TO THE OLD TESTAMENT. IT'S NOT JUST CHRISTIANS WHO ARE ASKING THIS, RIGHT? YOU CAN'T JUST SAY, OH, SIN OF ADAM, END OF STORY. NO. YOU HAVE TO SAY, WAIT A MINUTE. WHAT ABOUT THE QUESTION, JOB IS LEGITIMATELY ASKING? OKAY. THERE'S SUFFERING IN THE WORLD. NOW, WHY IN THE WORLD DOES GOD ALLOW THAT TO HAPPEN TO A JUST PERSON. SO, AT THE VERY SAME TIME, THERE'S THE IDEA, YOU HAVE TWO CONFLICTING NOTIONS OF SUFFERING. YOU HAVE THE GENESIS VIEW THAT SUFFERING IN THE WORK OF ADAM BUT YOU ALSO HAVE THE VIEW THAT GOD DOES NOT ALLOW A JUST MAN TO SUFFER. SUFFERING IS A PUNISHMENT FROM GOD FOR SIN. SO, THE IDEA THEN IS, EVEN IN THE NEW TESTAMENT, YOU HAVE THIS CONFLICT. WHY? AND THE QUESTION COMES UP, OF COURSE, WHY DOES GOD ALLOW THE JUST MAN TO SUFFER. AND THAT'S THE QUESTION. JOB JUST DOESN'T SAY, OH, SIN OF ADAM. HE SAYS, NO. GOD PROMISED US, THROUGH MOSES, THAT IF WE KEPT THE TORAH AND WE KEPT THE COVENANT, WE'RE GOING TO BE SPARED SUFFERING YOU BETTER TELL US, WHY, WE'RE KEEPING THE COVENANT AND THERE'S STILL SUFFERING. WHY IS THAT HAPPENING. THAT'S WHAT JOB IS TRYING TO DO. AND THE REASON I'M TRYING TO BE SO PASSIONATE IS BECAUSE THE ISRAELITES ARE ASKING THE QUESTION VERY PASSIONATELY. THEY WANT TO KNOW. HEY, I'M A RIGHTEOUS MAN, HOW DOES THIS HAPPEN TO ME? I'VE BEEN DOING EVERYTHING RIGHT. HOW DOES THIS HAPPEN? AND YOU LOOK AT JOB, AND THERE'S A PARTIAL EXPLANATION, PART OF WHICH IS. AND JESUS SUPERCEDES THAT AND JESUS SUPERCEDES THAT. AND THEN YOU HAVE THE OTHER DIMENSION. AND THE OTHER DIMENSION IS RESURRECTION, RESURRECTION, RESURRECTION, SELF OFFERING, SELF OFFERING. AND JESUS BRINGS THE WHOLE MEDICINAL VIEW LIKE TO A WHOLE NEW LEVEL, EXPONENTIALLY. HIGHER LEVEL AND SO, WE SEE WITH JESUS, AND CHRISTIANITY ITSELF, A MUCH, MUCH HIGHER VIEW OF SUFFERING. ADDITIONALLY WHAT CHRISTIANITY DOES. AND JESUS DIDN'T DO THIS EXPLICITLY, BUT WHAT IT DID, IT ESSENTIALLY ALLOWED FOR THE IDEA OF SECONDARY CAUSATION. IT'S JESUS BASICALLY THAT ALLOWS THIS PHILOSOPHICAL REFLECTION TO OCCUR. AND WHEN HE SAYS, GOD CAUSES HIS SUN TO SHINE ON THE JUST AND THE UNJUST AND REIGN TO OCCUR WITH THE EVIL AND THE NOT EVIL. AND HE SAYS, GOOD THINGS ARE GOING TO HAPPEN TO EVIL PEOPLE AND BAD THINGS ARE GOING TO HAPPEN TO RIGHTEOUS PEOPLE. AND WE HAVE ALL THESE THEOLOGICAL EXPLANATIONS. BUT ALSO, HE'S OPENING THE DOOR TO A NATURAL EXPLANATION THAT HE DOES NOT GIVE. LATER ON, WHAT WE SEE IS THAT THE CHRISTIAN CHURCH BORROWS FROM PLATO, AND THEN, YOU LOOK AT ARISTOTLE, THE SECOND NOTION, GOD THE MOVER AND GETS THE OTHER SUBSIDIARY MOVERS UNDERWAY. AND ONCE THEY ARE UNDERWAY. ALL OF THEIR INTERACTIONS ARE NATURAL AND POSSIBLE INTERACTIONS BECAUSE THERE'S GOING TO BE ACCIDENTS BUT A LOT OF THEM ARE. AND NATURAL INTERACTIONS AND THEN THOMAS AQUINAS IS GOING TO BORROW THIS. AND WHEN HE BORROWS THIS AND PUTS IT IN THE VIEW OF SECONDARY CAUSATION, GOD IS THE FIRST CAUSE. AND GOD IS CONTINUING ALL OF THE SECONDARY CAUSES IN BEING AT EVERY MOMENT THAT THEY EXIST. HOWEVER, THOSE SECONDARY CAUSES CAN ACT ACCORDING TO THEIR APPROPRIATE END, AS IT WERE SIMPLY BY EXISTING, BY GOD GIVING THEM THEIR EXISTENCE. HE DOESN'T HAVE TO FORCE THEM TO DO WHAT THEY DO. HE'S ALREADY GIVING THEM THE INTRINSIC POWER TO DO WHAT THEY DO AS HE KEEPS THEM IN EXISTENCE. NOW, ONCE YOU HAVE THAT OUT THE DOOR, AS STANLEY YAKI, GREAT BENEDICTINE PHILOSOPHER AND PHYSICIST, AND FIRST RATE SCIENTIST. BASICALLY, HE SAYS, THIS IS THE ORIGIN OF THE NATURAL SCIENCES, RIGHT THERE THROUGH THE OPEN DOOR OF CHRISTIANITY, SPECIFICALLY THROUGH THE IDEA OF SECONDARY CAUSATION WHICH ADDS A FURTHER DIMENSION TO THE THEOLOGY OF SUFFERING THAT GOD ALLOWS NATURAL CAUSATION TO TAKE ITS TURN MOST OF THE TIME. OF COURSE, THERE ARE MIRACLES. BUT MOST OF THE TIME, HE'S NOT GOING TO PERFORM A MIRACLE, ONLY ON SPECIAL OCCASIONS WHERE HIS PROVIDENCE WARRANTS IT THAT SOMETHING GOOD WILL HAPPEN AND SECONDLY, THAT NOBODY'S SALVATION IS GOING TO BE HARMED BY IT. >> RIGHT. AND YOU SAY ON PAGE 151, IN THAT CHAPTER, MIRACLES INTERRUPT THE POSSIBILITIES OF RATIONAL EXPECTATIONS AND THEREFORE, THE POSSIBLE OF RATIONAL DECISION MAKING INTRINSIC TO FREEDOM. >> Father: THAT'S EXACTLY CORRECT. AS GOD SAYS, AS I SAID EARLIER, IF GOD IS PERFORMING A MIRACLE EVERY FIVE SECONDS OR A MILLION MIRACLES A MINUTE, I MEAN, WE HAVE NO IDEA WHAT BEFALL US IN THE NEXT SECOND. SO, ESSENTIALLY, WE WOULD BE POWERLESS TO PREDICT THE FUTURE. AND IF POWERLESS TO PREDICT THE FUTURE, LET'S FACE IT, WE CAN'T BE FREE. YOU HAVE TO HAVE SOME SENSE OF WHAT'S GOING TO BEFALL YOU IN ORDER TO MAKE A RATIONAL DECISION. AND RATIONAL DECISION IS INTRINSIC TO HUMAN FREEDOM. >> AND YOU POINT OUT ALSO, YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT EXAMPLES LIKE ST. PAUL ARE DIFFICULT TO FIND BECAUSE OF THE VAST MAJORITY OF WHAT HAPPENS TO SAINTS AND ORDINARY CHRISTIANS COMES FROM THE USUAL THREE NON-DIVINE CAUSES, OUR CHOICES, OTHERS CHOICES AND NATURE. SO, IS THAT WHAT WE'RE DEALING WITH? >> Father: YEAH, THAT'S WHAT WE'RE DEALING WITH. YEAH. FIRST OF ALL, GOD IS GOING TO ALLOW US TO BE FREE. WELL, FIRST OF ALL, HE'S GOING TO MAINTAIN THOSE NATURAL FORCES, RIGHT. HE'S GOING TO LET THEM DO WHAT THEY DO SO WE CAN MAKE RATIONAL DECISIONS. HE'S GOING TO LET THEM DO WHAT THEY DO SO WE CAN HAVE CHALLENGES IN OUR LIVES AND THOSE CHALLENGES ARE GOING TO BE VERY GOOD FOR US. THEY ARE GOING TO MAKE US INTERDEPENDENT. THEY ARE GOING TO HELP US TO HELP ONE ANOTHER. THEY ARE GOING TO INDUCE US TO HAVE AN ACT OF COMPASSION FOR SOMEONE IN NEED OR SOMEONE VULNERABLE OR FOR US TO ACCEPT AN ACT OF COMPASSION WHEN WE'RE IN NEED AND WHEN WE'RE VULNERABLE. ALL OF THESE ARE THE BENEFITS OF SUFFERING CAUSED BY THE NATURAL WORLD. MAYBE A GENE DEFICIENCY OR A DROUGHT OR A VOLCANO OR WHATEVER IT MAY BE. YOU HAVE THE OTHER SIDE OF THE EQUATION AS WELL. GOD IS GOING TO ALLOW HITLER TO DO TERRIBLE THINGS TO OTHER PEOPLE AND HE'S GOING TO ALLOW A CRIMINAL TO SHOOT ANOTHER PERSON BECAUSE HE HAS, HE CAN'T LOBOTOMIZE EVERYBODY WHO IS GOING TO COMMIT A SIN BECAUSE IF HE DOES, THEN ESSENTIALLY, HE IS NOT GIVING US THE FREEDOM TO LOVE OR THE FREEDOM TOWARD UNLOVE, THAT IS, TOWARD SIN. HE'S SIMPLY FORCING US TO BE LOVING. AND IF HE FORCES US TO BE LOVING BECAUSE WE HAVE NO OPTION TO COMMIT A SIN, THEN WE HAVE NO OPTION ABOUT DOING SOMETHING EVIL OR SOMETHING THAT WILL CAUSE SUFFERING TO SOMEBODY ELSE. IF WE DON'T HAVE THAT OPTION, OUR LOVE IS NOT OUR OWN. >> Doug: WELL, THAT'S THE TROUBLE, FATHER. WE'RE OUT OF OPTIONS! THEY HAVE OPTIONED US OUT. AND WE'RE OUT OF TIME. WE HAVE TO END IT RIGHT THERE. AND WE'RE GOING TO CONTINUE WITH THIS CHAPTER THE NEXT TIME WE GET TOGETHER. THANK YOU SO MUCH! DON'T FORGET YOUR WONDERFUL BOOK, THE LIGHT SHINES ON IN THE DARKNESS, WHAT WE'RE ALL TALKING ABOUT. AND YOU CAN CHECK THAT OUT AT ewtnRC.com. AND FATHERS OTHER BOOKS, ALSO, WE HAVE MOTHER'S BOOK AVAILABLE AS WELL. AND DON'T FORGET THAT ewtnRC.com FOR ALL ITEMS MADGE CENTER. AND CHECK IT OUT THERE AS WELL. AND THERE'S SO MUCH IN "FR. SPITZER'S UNIVERSE" TO BE EXPLORED. magiscenter.com AND WE'LL EXPLORE MORE THE NEXT TIME WE SEE YOU RIGHT HERE. ♪
