Father Spitzer’s Universe - 2016-11-09 - What Is The Evidence For Purgatory?

hello and welcome to father Spitzer's universe at the intersection of faith and reason I'm Doug Keck your host coming to you live from our EWTN studios in the heart of Irondale Alabama Mother Angelica Way and today's topic is what is the evidence for the idea of purgatory we hear that obviously as Catholic teaching some people don't believe it even Catholics so I'm gonna have questions about it we'll take your questions about purgatory you can email us those questions at Spitzer's universe at ewtn.com post your questions on our Facebook page facebook.com forward slash ewtn online hash tag FS universe and if you'd like send us a tweet at twitter.com /uw can hashtag FS universe and they'll forget all things father Spitzer are at the Majesty sent ur website Madge ascent to one word.com and here we are let's turn quickly to father Spitzer as we journey out to our studios at the Christ Cathedral and Orange County California where once again we're joined by father Spitzer well it's interesting you know it's your universe but I think there's a lot of people today a day after our unbelieveable election I think they're in another universe of an alternate universe I would think how is it out there I California they certainly feel that way right yes they probably feel like an alternative universe just occurred and they might be in it actually uh right exactly so let me ask you in your own opinion you know you're not a political junkie per se but you pay attention you know we talked through the last couple of weeks about Catholics voting and some of their responsibilities I think the last numbers I saw was that something like 51 percent of Catholics maybe actually voted for Trump and I would guess that the real driving issue for those who decided to vote for him because he does have quite a bit of his own personal baggage was really probably the pro-life issue would you think that I would think that I think it because that was also part of the bishops platform in their voters guide that we talked about the last couple of weeks very clearly the bishops emphasize the life movement and I think in the third debate as you know you know Hillary did you know talk about the permissibility encouraged permissibility of third trimester abortions and that pretty much would have struck a lot of Catholics as to say the least remarkably bad and so I think you know the combination certainly put the life issues right on the forefront for the Catholic vote and I haven't checked the you know the standings but fifty-one percent that that sounds perfectly reasonable it's interesting to and I wanted to mention this to you and thank you personally for our audience who sent us some emails thanking EWTN for our EWTN news nightly coverage Raymond's interview with Trump as a candidate certainly the last couple of weeks the shows we did some of the material that father Mitch's put out there to help at least contextualize an understanding of the Catholic approach to voting and what the important issues are so I want to thank you because all right once again you provided some great insights for our audience let's move on to another area of question what is the evidence for purgatory so before we get there we sometimes have some follow-up questions from our prior weekend let's put up with this one last week we were kind of talking about the voting and one of the things that came up this person said is last week you answered a question about the death penalty I understand our church's view that the death penalty shouldn't be used in modern society but how is it not a deterrent okay you mentioned it was not a deterrent many criminals drug traffickers and mobsters use the death penalty in their own activities to intimidate people I guess in the sense that if you talk will kill you or will kill your whole family so sure why would they do that if they didn't find that that has a deterrent impact on people cooperating with the police or betraying yeah I mean you know the the first you know thing is that the the church really I think you might have misunderstood my rationale the church doesn't use deterrence arguments but there is a good deal of evidence to suggest that deterrence the death penalty really isn't a deterrent anyway but nevertheless the church I swords two kinds of arguments of these of you the death penalty number one is the retribution argument in other words you killed this guy Lex talionis we got to kill you that you know it's directly prohibited by Jesus and so that idea of retributive justice that is to say retribution that was never you know agreed upon in fact it's directly contested by the church the second is the deterrence argument and again the problem with the deterrence argument is not only that you know there's there's you know a weakness to to to the argument itself but the idea that you threaten a person with death and that's how you're going to prevent them to do in doing a capital crime the church really never you know has gone for threats of death okay to deter anybody from anything and certainly that's because of Jesus who didn't use threats of death to to as a deterrent so those two arguments were avoided but as as the listener suggests yeah there there is less you know there's not overwhelming evidence that des turns like the death penalty don't work but there's there's not a strong case that the death penalty is a good deterrent the church is always relied upon the common good argument that's where it always stood in other words you know you can't let a criminal back out onto the streets who is likely to Rhea fend you kill or harm innocent victims now you know our whole moral theology or what I'm gonna call social ethics it's predicated on that fact so I think you know you can see actually you know the possibilities you know that you know the you know the the church has always said okay if you can't afford to keep a person incarcerated for the rest of their lives or you don't have the facilities and that was a very very much the case you know for a long time you know that the the people the state couldn't keep somebody permanently incarcerated then in that case for the sake of the common good for the sake of the self-defense or the defense of the innocent which is the common good the church permitted you know the death penalty and of course you know as as in within the context of double effect but as John Paul the second said in today's society permanent incarceration is really not much of a problem for most cultures and nations and it just makes the whole idea of the death penalty now that the overriding reason is gone you should be able you know to see this and and so the you know the church has changed its its view because circumstances changed not because their moral teaching change so it basically been based on a kind of a kind understanding of the idea of self-defense in a sense the society is defending itself okay not the deterrence that's right at you were pointing on okay very good okay let's let's move on to dealing with today's topic which is what is the evidence for purgatory and this is a question came in via Twitter father could you provide a clear biblical reference for the existence of purgatory as it is taught in our faith where is it referenced in Scripture and this is from Glenn and this is a question many times I'm sure it's been asked on the journey home and other programs because it's one that many oh sure Protestants actually will ask yeah I mean it's it's a very legitimate question I mean I think the the reason is is because we didn't get a strong declaration of the notion of purgatory until the Middle Ages but that doctrine of purgatory already it was based on the idea of atonement from the dead atonement after death excuse me and let me just give you a couple of quick examples from Scripture and then get up to the current doctrine which is the whole idea of purification after death you where you are assured of your salvation after death but never but you are also in need of some purification and and how human freedom plays in you know a very important part in the definition of that doctrine but going back to the to the listeners questions you know first what is the evidence in the Old Testament if you turn to second Maccabees 12 41 to 46 there you will see that in which was written about the you know 100 BC or so right so this is very close to the time of Jesus yes and it certainly says what the view of the Jewish people was and of course second Maccabees the Catholic Church accepts this as a part of its biblical a part of its Bible and you know so we would just say you know that you know it's it's part of our tradition and you know we've allowed it in our Canon or if I can put it that way can and just means the official books of Scripture so second Maccabees 1240 146 the noble judas maccabees it says made a an atonement offering for a lot of people who had just died so they they basically you know there was a sin that had been committed you know these people lost their lives you know and judas maccabees takes up this huge collection and essentially sends us into the temple of jerusalem as an offering to pray for the souls of these people the redemption of these people or what's called the atonement of these people after death so that pretty much tells you where intertestamental judaism was going you know during the time of Jesus so Jesus would be absolutely familiar with this now it's true to say that during Jesus's time you had three major parties there you know the Pharisees the Sadducees and the essence the Sadducees only believed in the first five books of the Old Testament that's called the Torah and in the Sadducees he'll well you know there is no life after death because resurrection or life after death is not mentioned in those first five books what did the only essentials were a mine why did they only accept those five just was a religious conservatism really just plain religious conservatism yeah and and they called themselves you know the Sadducees Saad Hakeem right the the righteous one so they they proclaim themselves with the rights from on the basis of that religious conservatism however they were a real minority party I mean honestly those IDs were not a big party the Pharisees you know dwarf I mean other Thursday Jews but outnumbered them and kind of almost you know made them into a almost a minor party the discrepancy was so large and the Pharisees absolutely believed in a resurrection from the dead and not only did they believe in resurrection from the dead they believed it because of the prophetic witness to it to the books of in wisdom literature that witness to it and of course the book of Maccabees and intertestamental Judaism that witnessed to it and by the way the Essenes which are again a minority a kind of almost a cult in during Jesus's time very much believed in the resurrection from the dead that's based on their the teachings of the righteous one so you have definitely this idea you know of the resurrection from the dead that's there and you have because not just of Maccabees but a common belief in intertestamental literature that's witness to by this work of Scripture a second Maccabees 1241 246 that indicates yes you know the you know when Jesus came on the scene he basically inherited a widespread belief in the possibility of atonement and atonement offerings after death for a person who might have died in sin okay now Jesus himself if you go to Matthew 12 32 there is a passage this is passive about the the sin of the Holy Spirit as you might recall and in that passage right the you know Jesus is saying look anyone who commits a sin against the son of man he's going to be or you know it gives a word against the Son of Man he will be forgiven but anyone who you know gives testimony or word against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven in the present age or in the age to come now what is that word in the present age and the age to come and the idea being forgiven in the age to come what does that mean the idea of age and the Greek word here is Eon or a on right aan essentially that means like a span of time and in the case when you put this age this present age that would be our lifetime or very explicitly Jesus includes not just in our lifetime but he's using a contrast if against our lifetime or in the age to come that is to say during the time after this lifetime and beyond in that sense or a on in that sense generally refers to the eternity of the future life after death so what Jesus is saying is there is clearly the possibility of forgiveness in the eternity or in the eternal life after the present age after our lifetime and that's very clearly you know set out in in Scripture I don't see how you can interpret it in any other way and know the meaning of Eon so excuse me so essentially that again gives you a sense a second passage coming from Jesus himself now let's go to st. Paul or the pull line author of second Timothy and in this particular case is the second Timothy 1 Paul is is is saying look you know I'm praying for this guy Onis if Aris right who was a friend of his in Ephesus who had really helped him out you know when he was in Ephesus came to the jail and and you know obviously helped him a great deal he look onna Sepphoris it has died and I pray for him I pray for mercy for him in this present time so essentially then he is actually asking for illness if Ares's salvation right or prayers for his salvation after he has died and he is dead right but on the day you know he says on that day what is he referring to on that day he's won't as if was already dead on the day of judgment I pray for mercy for him so that is to say forgiveness or mercy he's following the teaching of Jesus in Matthew 12 32 and so we see very very clearly there you know that that you know there's there's a ya reference to a belief right now let me just get to the so those are three passages it that basically you know the reader listener was asking for but if I could just go one step deeper if you really look at what was going on in the early church in the early church you see all these scratchings on tombs where people are promising prayers for the dead these are Christians right early Christians where people are promising prayers for the dead and and within 10 years after Jesus's resurrection right we're seeing very clear evidence meaning that the Christian Church permitted people and in fact no not permitted encouraged people to pray for their deceased loved ones and there were special days they encouraged them to pray on the third day after their death the seventh day after their death the ninth day and the thirtieth day and the fortieth day after their death pray for what pray that God will extend forgiveness and mercy to them after their death now you say well how does that actually you know prove you know the doctrine of purgatory as the church defined it you know on during that time and the answer very clearly is if you believe in Atonement after death if you believe that there's a possibility of forgiveness after death then you can certainly believe that God can help you to purification after death so there's no no doubt about it for all intents and purposes we can see that you know that you know when the medieval church took this up right you know it took it up and the spirit that a look you know after this person dies even if they arrived in this state of purification after death they are assured of their salvation they're not going to hell they are assured of their salvation they are going to go to heaven so what is the problem it comes in with the notion of freedom so essentially you have a you know these were free beings right right you know God just can't make us love the way that we will need to love in authenticity and purity and imitation of Jesus he can't kind of force this on us or force a transformation on us that is not commensurate with our freely accepting it and this goes back to the medieval notion of what's called inordinate attachments that when people die you know they can be inordinately attached to various kinds of things which are going to disrupt the kind of purity of love that will take place in the heavenly kingdom it'll disrupt the purity of joy that will take place in the heavenly kingdom I can't look at another human being yet through the eyes of Jesus in the sense of seeing them as they really are or accept them myself you know in that condition so I'm kind of hanging on to something maybe it's hanging on to honors they're hanging on to pride or hanging on to material things they're hanging on to power hanging on the Dominion or hanging on basically to ego so I'm hanging on to something and I'm gonna have to deal with the my ego freely I'm gonna have to make free choices to detach from that ego after I have died that free choice to detail yeah again with that why don't you take the break as we as we're hanging on having a little break and you can work on that ego thinking we can talk when we come right back here as we're talking about the evidence for purgatory with father Spitzer and we have much more ahead here on father Spitzer's university with us back in father Spitzer's universe coming to you from our studios here at EWTN in Irondale Alabama also from Christ Cathedral studios in Orange County California and of course we are talking about the evidence basically for purgatory Catholic teaching and and I'm at a Catholic dogma so it is something that Catholics have to believe right father mm-hmm oh absolutely right yeah it was defined as a doctrine yes right so let's go to a question this one came from face book person has a question you were just talking a little bit about purgatory specifically about the st. Paul talking about it but here it says Jesus said to the thief on the cross I'm assuming that's saying the good thief that he would they would be together in paradise that day was there no purgatory for the thief and was the thief a saint I mean obviously this is from Peter I guess saying well obviously he he committed some sort of crimes that's why I ended up on the cross there as well sure said how did that work yeah there's two kinds of contrition that the Council of Trent defined the first is would call up what's called a perfect contrition and the second is called an imperfect contrition right but if you have an imperfect a perfect contrition is really done out of love it's done out of justice it's it's done out of a purity of motive right an imperfect contrition is done out of fear and generally you know I might fear hell or fear the loss of heaven or you know fear some kind of punishment and because of that you know I you know turn and ask for contrition or I throw myself on the mercy of God now you know so long as if we have an imperfect contrition so long as we intend to go to confession and you know we could die and and if we did die that fear would not manifest a kind of love or attachment that they could be you know redeemable in heaven if I can put it that that way we might need some additional purification and so if that thief on the cross it had an import to convey just did it out of fear right there might be some purification now that would be necessary however in a perfect contrition and and this thief is an interesting fellow because he actually says look he says we deserved what we got so he admits to the first thief he first he's defending Jesus he then secondly says we deserved what we're getting and so you know and he turns to Jesus after he says as he defends him and and shows a kind of a purity of motive and then after that he essentially you know you know you know says look I I admit I did terrible things I deserve what I got then he turns he says you know remember me when you enter into your kingdom an act of faith he's throwing himself on the mercy of God and he sees something in Jesus that that is intrinsically good and worthy of defending in that case Jesus judges him right there as having a purity of motive and says this day you will be with me in paradise so when you have a perfect contrition yes you don't go to purgatory per se you you actually go straight to heaven okay and you know of course we feel that this is what happens to our saints you know that they die and you know with perfect contrition and and so once you declare them canonized right we're not worried that they're in purgatory we're asking for their prayers and now because we believe they're in heaven with the Lord now okay but a great question okay so there's a quick follow-up from somebody else who asked a question that dovetails right into what you just said father did the Apostles Paul and Peter have to go to purgatory before they became Saints is Carinthia so a little bit of what you were just talking about I mean yeah yeah there's there's there's good there's two you know you know thoughts two levels as it were of becoming a saint one is that you are a saint intrinsically your own person that is to say you are a righteous holy one in yourself right and that with church has always declared that martyrdom done with purity of faith is absolutely you know a criterion for you know what we call righteousness that is to say a perfect contrition that is to say you become a righteous holy one through perfect contrition and and your martyrdom is is the testimony to the authenticity of that love of the faith that love of Christiana you didn't deny the Lord you stuck with it even at the very cost of your life now as you know Saint Peter and Saint Paul were both martyred so they became Saints as it were the minute that death was completed they were already having not only given their lives for the faith and death but given their lives for the faith in during their lifetime right there already as it were Saints perfectly contrite in heaven with the Lord through that sacrifice now it took some time for canonization to occur now do I think it would have taken a long time to canonize Saints Peter and Paul no but of course the whole process of canonization and the formalization the process of canonization took a little bit of time and of course once done they were right at the front of the list of those who are proclaimed to be a saint by the church but no you can start once they're Saints they're not going to go to purgatory I mean once they're intrinsically the righteous and holy perfect perfectly contrite they're already in heaven and so they didn't go to purgatory we believe in their martyrdom we believe in their perfect contrition that they went directly to heaven even though the church had not declared it you know immediately thereafter okay so let's go to another question that kind of is partial to what you just talked about it says dear father Spitzer's and if someone is in mortal sin but willingly dies as a martyr for the faith will they automatically go to heaven to hell will God allow him or her to make amends in purgatory this is Claudia from San Dimas California and so I guess they're now if they're actually a modder I guess they would go straight to heaven based on what you're just saying right yeah yeah I mean you know the if they are in a state of mortal sin and obviously if they're intent on giving their lives to you know for Christ Minoo we ought we have to presuppose that they're contrite for that mortal sin at the very least imperfectly contrite otherwise why in the world would you give your life I mean why not do the the easy path you know denying Christ and you know quote-unquote you know escape the death penalty but these people obviously gave their lives they didn't deny Christ they didn't try to escape the death penalty and they didn't escape death so the answer to that question would be yeah this would be almost like baptism by blood it would be like forgiveness or even perfect contrition by blood so even if they were only imperfectly contrite when they asked by giving their lives there they're already perfectly contrite and in heaven so that and they certainly don't go to hell okay next question this as we're entering into the hundredth anniversary of Our Lady of fátima we got a question related to Fatima hello father Spencer the children at Fatima were told that Amelia a young girl who had died I think she lived in their village would be in purgatory until the end of time if there's really no such thing as time in eternity then what did our Lady mean by quote-unquote at the end of time and would these souls ever get to heaven thanks well first of all you know you have to remember that the way our Lady communicates with children right is not going to be in a technical theological language right you know I mean she's gonna it squidward reach hippy to reticular and motor which means richa pn said whatever's received is received in the manner of the receiver right so our ladies gonna you know address the the the level of the theological discourse to the recipient because whatever is received is received in the manner of a child received in the manner of a recipient so the last thing that you want to do is to take an expression of our lady to a child you know and try and put a direct theological interpretation on that to make it as it were a doctrine of the church in fact the church says don't do that okay the Church officially proclaims this is a private revelation right if you're turning to if you want official doctrine turn to the church's councils and to the papal statements that are officially declared you know infallible turn to them for your doctrines don't turn to something which could have a very very limited doctrinal value or a very very limited interpretation you know sort of design for a child or designed for a particular cultural interpretation don't turn to that for a doctrinal a proclamation on purgatory or for that matter anything else right so stick with their church documents and you know you just have to figure that our lady knew what she was saying when she was talking to the children and design that statement for them and and we can't sort of make it you know into a theological lis proper Church doctrine right it's almost like proof texting taking something out of context exactly yeah I'm using it to prove a point here's another question from father Spitzer is the time spent in purgatory determined by gravity of sin is there physical suffering at just reflection and repentance and can our loved ones in heaven visit us there this is blessings from North Carolina is there any connection between two yeah yeah two questions you know that are there with respect to the to the first question about you know time purgatory the Catechism of the Catholic Church really doesn't specify it that is to say that the church says look there's just three things about purgatory you can be sure of number one that the person who is there is going to be assured of their salvation so they're not going to stay there forever they're going to get to heaven number two you can be sure that that person needs some purification and purification here it means letting go of something probably an ego attachment of some kind that is truly interfering with the kind of love that is appropriate to the kingdom of heaven and so we have to sort of free ourselves from this so that we don't interrupt the love and the joy of the kingdom of heaven but instead join into it through our freedom the third thing you can be sure of is that God's grace will be helping us in this process of purification in this process of letting go of whatever it is that were kind of hooked on to or inordinately attached to so you might say well huh what's the time is it based on the gravity of sin not necessarily it's really based on how fast it takes me to let go of whatever that inordinate attachment is how strong it is and frankly how stubborn I and I speak only for myself because I can sometimes stubbornly want to hold on to things you know and and and that's just stubbornly but habitually want to hang on to things and gods you know sort of prying my fingers you know off of the attachment but eventually you know I kind of let it go and when I do let it go I let it go and freedom and I let it go in trust of God I let it go and trust of His grace and of course once that happens the the moment it happens and the twinkling of an eye as Paul would say I'm up in the kingdom of heaven joining the Blessed at the messianic banquet and enjoying of course the Lord himself in all of his love and joy and I would say that's that's pretty much the determinant factor for the time it's it's really me my freedom and letting go okay let me ask you so does a soul that now is let's say has died and gone to purgatory do they have free will to let go or not let go yes yes they do okay absolutely your free will oh I forgot to answer the second part of her question you know the the second part of your question you know could your relatives you know actually of in heaven visit you while you were in purgatory and you know again there's no definition of this doctrinally in the church I will say this you know there is no crossing from heaven to hell or hell to heaven but there's no such specification these of the purgatory so interestingly enough you know if a relative as it were could visit you here on this earth they might be able to visit you in purgatory and if God felt in my view this is Spitzer's theological opinion only in my view if it would help you to let go if a relative came you know and you you saw that relative god I think would do anything to speed up the process to help you to let go and if he thought that would be helpful I think he probably would let that happen but again that's the Spitz Aryan viewpoint there's nothing in Church doctrine that that prohibits it or that sanctions it so take your pick you know or you know that allows it right I take your pick it's so clearly I'm not sure like you said clearly Souls move from purgatory to heaven so I guess you don't have the same prohibition that's clear in Scripture related to hell hell mm-hmm that's right that's right okay yeah here's another question a lot of people have a lot of questions about purgatory if a soul yeah carga Tori this is an interesting one classic fairness discussion of modern man if a soul in purgatory has a lot of relatives and friends to offer a prayer for them is it fair to someone who passed away with no relatives or friends left behind to pray for them what happens to such a soul father yeah essentially those are given over to two different groups and the first group of course is the actual communion of saints itself okay you know if we just don't have people you know that will help out then of course the communion of saints absolutely is involved in praying for that person the second thing that's very clear are there are a lot of saints like st. Therese of Lisieux even st. Paul himself right who can clearly say look I want to offer up you know my sufferings not only for the living I want to offer up my sufferings for you know the dead and st. Therese of Lisieux was very very desirous and of course this is very much encouraged by the church to offer up your sufferings every single day and your morning offering not only for your relatives which is perfectly appropriate dua for your your you know sufferings for your relatives but also join your sufferings to those of Christ for the sake of the souls in purgatory very much encouraged by the church and certainly encouraged by Our Lady of fátima certainly encouraged by st. Therese of Lisieux okay very good on that point we're gonna take a break here with father Spitzer talking about the evidence for purgatory and don't forget father Spitzer's got a wonderful book God so loved the world which is available through EWTN much more ahead with father Spitzer right after this short break stay with us and here we are in father Spitzer's universe once again coming to you live from our studios in irondale alabama the mothership of EWTN and of course with father Spitzer out on the west coast after a election that just occurred yesterday once we said earlier there's a lot of people waking up with their own alternate universes today I think with the kind of surprise election of Donald Trump as president as well as seemingly the Republicans holding onto the house and it appears to be the Senate as well so quite a different perspective then what a lot of people anticipate it so it's going to be a take a while little disorientation for all of us and hopefully from what mr. Trump has said and what Secretary Clinton said really the idea of us getting back together as Americans and working through our differences from the best of our country and here's here's a powerful question father having to do with our discussion of purgatory this woman writes us my daughter hung herself at the age of 42 my question is where is she with God in purgatory or has she committed the immortal sin maybe she's means unpardonable sin as well as condemned to hell for eternity I hope you're going to answer my question and put my mind at ease this is Linda Thank You Linda we just want to say obviously we would pray for your daughter and we pray for you and father so what do you think absolutely we do pray for you yeah there's let's go back again to the definition of mortal sin you know there's three components to that as you probably remember from your Baltimore Catechism and certainly from the Catechism of the Catholic Church and let's go through them because you don't just get an automatic a mortal sin a mortal sin requires Grievous matter now suicide absolutely is grievous matter so I mean no question about it you probably can't get more Grievous matter than suicide but it's the other two dimensions of mortal sin that really have to be considered here the first one is called sufficient reflet and the third one is called full or complete consent of the will and it's the third one that is you know there sufficient reflection has two components to it and by the way you can read about this in your Catholic catechism there or the Catechism of the Catholic Church but just very briefly sufficient reason it has two components the first thing is you have to know that that something is is sinful so in other words you basically you you can't be an ignorant of the sinfulness of suicide now most people are not in ignorant of you know the the sinfulness of suicide the second component insufficient reflection is that you actually at the time that you are committed intending to commit suicide is that you are cognizant of the sinfulness of what you are doing now you think you said well how could you not be you know oftentimes you know depressions can get incredibly bad in fact they can get so bad that they distort the reality of people and I mean distort it to a point where they actually can talk themselves into believing that suicide might be a good you know or something of that nature I mean a good in the sense of of a divine good now you think to yourself oh my gosh you know clearly you know this is so warped but you know you really ought to take a look you know and you know some works that are done with respect to suicide and you know see the frame of mind that people can get in it's not the frame of mind you have today the third criterion of a mortal sin and this is the crucial one complete consent of the will what that means is that there's no impediments no impediments to the free use of the will or at least not an impediment that could obstruct the the the free and full use of your will now boy there are a lot of impediments to the free use of the will of course there's the the the old one the the old external coercion kinds of things should you rob the bank you know a guy points a gun at you and says if you don't rob this Bank I'll shoot you so you rob the bank are you complicit no obviously there's external coercion there and you're not complicit but the far more important one for a you Linda is the one that's the internal compulsions and the internal impediments are blocks to the free use of the will a severe depression can that be an internal and interior blocking or impediment to the free view so that will absolutely I mean just read the descriptions of depression can you know a variety of what we call the the major psychological illnesses for example schizophrenia where you're just not in in in connection with reality or paranoid schizophrenia where you're actually seeing illusions of things you know you know I mean honestly the devil or God you know you know telling you to commit suicide of course schizophrenic can be a major reason you know of course bipolar disorder which has on one extreme you know that the depression we just talked about which can be a very severe depression or on the other extreme kind of a hyperactivity you know you know it literally you're out of your mind you know a sort of elated in in a kind of a hyper mode right right you know could that obstruct the free use of the will absolutely it could you know so really at one thing you might want it I think you don't want to read this book but it's it's a good book it's called a freedom in nature of all the voluntary and the involuntary by paul ricoeur and it's the definition of the involuntary which you might want to read about and there is a lot of lot of impediments to the freeze the will you the Scholastic's admitted that you know a certain kinds of ingrained habits could be an impediment to the free use of the will and so forth so you know this is you know you know I can't tell you that your daughter's in purgatory or heaven you know for a fact but I can say if one of these interior afflictions prevented her from having you know free use of the will complete or full consent of the will then I would be very certain that God would be helping her either in purgatory or helping her into the into the kingdom of heaven you know because of course she was not in a right might now if somebody on the other hand decides you know I I'm gonna you know hurt all of my relatives and friends because I hate them and so they commit suicide and you know for that reason but they did it with full consent of the will and you know what would that mean I don't know cuz if somebody really doing that with full consent of the world killing themselves to you know lead everybody else into a kind of you know metaphorical hell I mean I oh no I thank God I am NOT the judge but I do know this if they're compelling reasons Linda for thinking that your daughter was severely depressed or had these other kinds of impediments to the free use of the will or felt herself you know you know in a bind you know to her there was so much pain in her life you know that she's you know oftentimes you know contrite you know as you know they're they're literally killing themselves to get out of their pain or something like that you know God can certainly see through this see the impediment to the free use of the will and can help them through purgatory into the you know by His grace into heaven right so that certainly is a possibility we got so there's no like automatic immortals that now exactly and especially in this year of mercy we we should look to that as well and here absolutely and here's that here's one last question as we'll try and squeeze it in in our closing moments interesting question your father will the people who are alive at the end of time I guess when our Lord comes back you have to go to purgatory and this is from Mary well you know the the answer is yes for the same reasons that we would go to purgatory now so if somebody you know at the end of time right dies but you know imperfect contrition with the intention to go to confession or a perfect contrition they would go to heaven but if somebody you know we're imperfectly contrite had these inordinate attachments was in need of further purification it really wouldn't matter whether they died at the end of time or died right now they would be going to purgatory so that God's grace would you know could help them to the point where they could use their freedom to choose perfection in love and to give up the inordinate attachments which blocked that love the ego detriments that block that love so that they could enter into the full joy of the kingdom so the answer would be yeah timing would not be you know it would not be really relevant right I'm wondering whether she's got in the back of her mind this kind of end times the tribulation yeah thing that maybe people you know apocalyptic view kind of the the the final martyrdom of the church and things like that that maybe having passed through that period that that would be the equivalent of the purification one we need that maybe purgatory won't for those you know alive today like yeah yeah I mean it's it's certainly a possibility that the church doesn't rule out but there's a no doctrine really from the church on it that the you know says that that would count as a kind of a final purification if you were in need of purification so I think you could maybe keep your mind open to both possibilities but the church certainly has not defined that and so you know it's just always best to think you know if they're in need of purification and the purification that they have derd maybe even at the end of time but was not sufficient then yeah they could typically spend time in purgatory okay why do you think today that and maybe from a Protestant perspective but just in general that you would think here's purgatory which seems to be in some ways a wonderful teaching of the church in the sense that one's ability to still be cleansed seems to have such a negative connotation for so many people yeah I mean I think you know two things I think first of all the the idea of purgatory very much shows you the importance of human freedom and the importance of human freedom after death as we saw before Jesus certainly believes in atonement and forgiveness even after death in the life to come we see that Paul thinks the same thing now so you know the whole idea of you know this kind of healthy respect for human freedom that God's not going to just go in there and do a roto-rooter job on your consciousness you know to make you holy that he's going to allow you and your freedom the very freedom he gave you on this earth to choose to move beyond your inordinate attachments with the help of his grace in this state but you know removing yourself but you know or you know distancing yourself you know detaching yourself from these inordinate attachments it's not an easy thing you know it's gonna be a challenge there's going to be grace but God respects our freedom and without a doctrine of purgatory how can you explain how somebody with an imperfect contrition right repents out of fear right you know intends to go to confession but doesn't get there before he dies this person or ego you know dies you know he's got these kinds of attachment still if you have any sense of God's respect for human freedom if you have any sense that God is going to work with us and through us to get us into heaven and our salvation is assured then I would say that this doctrine is a beautiful doctrine it is a good doctrine and of course it is grounded in Jesus and in the words of Paul and in certainly also in Maccabees in the old test and that's a great way to end our program talking about purgatory thank you so much father Spitzer next week we'll be talking about the evidence for the soul itself so we will see you then and we will see our audience as well don't forget to majus center.com for all things father Spitzer and look for encore airings of our show Thursday at 10 p.m. Eastern 7:00 p.m. specific Saturday at midnight Eastern Friday at 9:00 p.m. Pacific I'll listen on radio on Saturdays at 12 noon and I think also now also it's on Friday nights I believe at 8 p.m. Eastern that was just added to the schedule and I've heard many people say that it works wonderful ly on the radio so just look for us next week I'm Doug Keck thank you for joining us at the intersection of faith and reason that's why you'll find father Spitzer and our universe see you next time

Channel: EWTN

Views: 9,558

Keywords: FSU, FSU15035

Id: oAbzpYYuzuo

Length: 54min 14sec (3254 seconds)

Published: Wed Nov 09 2016