♪ >> Doug: HELLO AND WELCOME TO "FR. SPITZER'S UNIVERSE", I'M DOUG KECK WHERE NO MAN HAS GONE BEFORE. AND COMING TO YOU FROM OUR EWTN STUDIOS, THIS IS THE MOTHERSHIP IN IRONDALE, ALABAMA WHERE MOTHER ANGELICA STARTED IT ALL SO MANY YEARS AGO AND CONTINUES, THANKS TO YOUR SUPPORT. MOTHER ANGELICA WAY IS WHERE WE'RE LOCATED TODAY. TODAY IS CHAPTER 7, THE TOPIC, WORKING THROUGH THE BOOK FINDING LIGHT IN THE DARKNESS AND INTERIOR AND EXTERIOR OPPORTUNITIES OF SUFFERING. AND ONLY IN THE CATHOLIC CHURCH DO WE HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY FOR BOTH OF THOSE, INTERIOR AND EXTERIOR. EMAIL US YOUR QUESTIONS AT magiscenter.com OR ewtn.com FATHER SPITZER. NOW, YOU CAN ALSO SEND US A MESSAGE ON FACEBOOK AND AT TWITTER WHICH IS ON YOUR SCREEN FOR THE INFORMATION. DON'T FORGET, MOTHER ANGELICA, ON PRAYER AND LIVING FOR THE KINGDOM, JUST OUT. I WANT TO QUOTE FATHER JOSEPH, IT'S THE BEST ONE YET. MINI-BOOK, PRAYER AND LIVING FOR THE KINGDOM. YOU CAN GET THESE AT THE EWTN RELIGIOUS CATALOG AND FATHER SPITZER' BOOKS AS WELL. AND MAJOR EVENT, POPE FRANCIS IN COLUMBIA, GO TO ewtn.com AND CHECK IT OUT FOR ALL OF THE INFORMATION, DATES, AND EVENTS THAT WE'RE COVERING AS OUR HOLY FATHER CROSSES THE SEAS AND AVOIDING THE HURRICANE, HOPEFULLY HE'S GOING TO DO FINE. DON'T FORGET, THIS WEEKEND UP IN WORCESTER MASSACHUSETTS, FREE EWTN FAMILY CELEBRATION, SEPTEMBER 9, 10. DID I SAY FREE? YES, FREE. NO TICKETS. JUST SHOW UP AND WE'LL FIND YOU A SEAT. AND FATHER MITCH IS GOING TO BE THERE ALONG WITH MARCUS GRODI AND FIND OUT ALL ABOUT IT. SPEAKING OF JESUITS, WE HAVE ALL OUR OWN, FATHER SPITZER OUT IN THE WEST COAST IN OUR WONDERFUL STUDIOS IN ORANGE COUNTY, CALIFORNIA WHERE WE JOURNEY EVERY WEEK ON THE CAMPUS OF CHRIST CATHEDRAL. GREAT TO SEE YOU ONCE AGAIN, FATHER. HOW ARE YOU? >> GREAT, DOUG, I'M DOING GREAT AND GREAT TO HEAR FROM YOU. >> Doug: AND WE HAVE YOUR NEW BOOK, THE LIGHT SHINES ON IN THE DARKNESS, TRANSFORMING SUFFERING THROUGH FAITH THAT WE'VE BEEN WORKING WITH AS PART OF YOUR QUARTET AND PEOPLE CAN SEE THERE. ALL AVAILABLE THROUGH THE EWTN RELIGIOUS CATALOGUE SO YOU CAN CHECK THAT OUT AS WE CONTINUE ON. AND WE'RE GOING TO BE TALKING AGAIN ABOUT CHAPTER 7. LET'S GO THROUGH A COUPLE OF COMMENTS THAT PEOPLE HAVE SENT TO US FROM PRIOR SHOWS BEFORE WE GET INTO THIS PARTICULAR CHAPTER. SO, WE HAVE SOMEBODY WHO WRITES TO US FROM FACEBOOK. DEAR FATHER SPITZER, IF I COMPLAIN ABOUT SUFFERING EVEN THOUGH I'VE OFFERED IT UP, DOES IT LOSE VALUE IN THE SIGHT OF GOD? THIS IS FROM PATTY. >> Father: PATTY, IT DOES NOT. FOR ALL INTENSIVE PURPOSES, GOD ALLOWS A LOT OF COMPLAINING AND THE REASON HE DOES, GOD IS FAMILIAR WITH A LOT OF THE PSALMS. AND THE PSALMS, ABOUT 1/5 OF THEM BEGIN WITH LAMENTATIONS AND YOU KNOW, VOCALIZED AND REPEATED SEVERAL TIMES THROUGHOUT THE PSALMS. GOD OBVIOUSLY, HE LISTENS TO US AND HE DEFINITELY HEARS US. HE WANTS US TO BE UP FRONT WITH HIM ABOUT HOW WE FEEL. IT'S COMPLETELY OKAY TO VOICE A LAMENTATION. AND OF COURSE, IT WOULD NEVER NEGATE AT ALL YOURSELF OFFERING AND FOR YOUR SAKE OR THE SAKE OF THE WORLD. GOD AS IT WERE SNAPS IT UP IN HIS LOVE IN A SECOND. AND UTILIZES IT FOR THE PEOPLE THAT YOU MIGHT HAVE MENTIONED IN YOUR INTENTIONS OR FOR THE GOOD OF THE CHURCH OR FOR THE GOOD OF THOSE MOST IN NEED OF HIS HELP AROUND THE WORLD. SO, AS THEY SAY, PLEASE, FEEL FREE TO COMPLAIN. BELIEVE ME, THERE'S A 4,000 YEAR TRADITION OF DOING THIS. IN BOTH THE OLD TESTAMENT AND THE NEW TESTAMENT. >> Doug: AND OUR LORD, TOO N- THE GARDEN OF GETHSEMANI, NOT REALLY COMPLAINING BUT CERTAINLY CHECKING TO SEE IF THIS COULD BE TAKEN AWAY. THAT THE CROSS WAS NOT ON THE TOP OF HIS LIST OF THINGS TO DO UNLESS IT WAS THE WILL OF THE FATHER. >> RIGHT. YEAH, HE SAYS, TAKE THIS CUP OF SUFFERING AWAY FROM ME. AND INDEED, THAT'S PRETTY MUCH ASKING THE LORD, ASKING ABBA TO BY-PASS IT. BUT IN THE END, AS HE POINTED OUT, HE SAYS, YOU KNOW, NOT MY WILL, BUT YOUR WILL BE DONE. SO, HE'S COMPLETELY OPEN TO WHAT THE FATHER HAS IN MIND. >> Doug: OKAY. VERY GOOD. HERE'S ANOTHER ONE. FATHER SPITZER THANK YOU FOR YOUR LIFE-GIVING SHOW. I'VE STRUGGLED FROM SELF-HATRED MY ENTIRE LIFE, MORE SO SINCE MY CONVERSION AND MY AWARENESS OF HOW I HAVE OFFENDED GOD. WHAT DO YOU RECOMMEND ON THIS MATTER? WHAT ARE SOME MEDIATIONS I CAN DO DAILY TO OVERCOME THIS? JAY . NOW, PEOPLE TALK ABOUT SELF HATRED AND WHEN YOU DEAL WITH THIS IN A SITUATION, IS THERE USUALLY A TYPICAL CAUSE BEHIND THIS KIND OF PERSPECTIVE? >> Father: WELL, IT CAN COME FROM THREE DIFFERENT SOURCES OR MORE ACTUALLY. BUT ONE OF THE KEY SOURCES THAT THIS COULD COME FROM IS NOT SPIRITUAL. IT CAN COME FROM THE FACT THAT YOU MAY HAVE DONE SOMETHING IN YOUR PAST LIFE THAT YOU SINCERELY REGRET. MAYBE NOT EVEN FOR A RELIGIOUS REASON, BUT HURT SOMEBODY, DONE SOMETHING, YOU SINCERELY REGRET IT AND A KIND OF SELF-LOATHING CAN TAKE PLACE. AND AS I POINT OUT IN A MOMENT, YOU HAVE TO JUST GIVE THAT TO GOD AND LET HIM TAKE CARE OF THAT. AND I'LL GIVE YOU A LITTLE SPONTANEOUS PRAYER FOR THAT, IT'S IN CHAPTER 4. BASICALLY, I SAY, DEAR LORD, MAKE GOOD COME OUT OF WHATEVER HARM I MIGHT HAVE CAUSED. SO, IF THE REASON FOR SELF-LOATHING IS SOMETHING THAT YOU REGRET FROM THE PAST, JUST KEEP PRAYING THAT PRAYER. DEAR LORD, MAKE GOOD COME OUT OF WHATEVER HARM I CAUSED. SOMETIMES IT'S SO FAR BEYOND YOU THAT IT'S NOT CALLING UP SOMEBODY AND ASKING FOR FORGIVENESS, SORT OF OUT OF THE QUESTION AT THIS JUNCTURE. AND THE SECOND SOURCE FOR SELF LOATHING, BELIEVE IT OR NOT, IS A PROFOUND SENSE OF INFERIORITY AND THIS CAN COME FROM TWO SOURCES AS WELL. IF A PARENT, FOR EXAMPLE, REINFORCES IN A CHILD WHO IS MAYBE EARLIER THAN 18-YEARS-OLD AND HAS A MATURE PERSPECTIVE. AND YOU KEEP REINFORCING TO THAT CHILD, YOU ARE GOOD FOR NOTHING, YOU DIDN'T DO ANYTHING RIGHT U- DIDN'T HIT THE HOME RUN, BLAH, BLAH, BLAH. AND SO, YOU KEEP POUNDING THE KID -- I DON'T KNOW, JAY, IF YOU ARE ONE OF THOSE KIDS. BUT IF YOU ARE, YOU HAVE TO KIND OF COME OUT OF THAT PERSPECTIVE. LOOK AT THOSE CRITICISMS OF YOU NOW FROM YOUR ADULT PERSPECTIVE. AGAIN, YOU HAVE TO GIVE IT TO THE LORD FOR HEALING. AND IF YOU GO TO CHAPTER 4 OF THIS BOOK THAT WE'VE BEEN READING THROUGH, THERE'S A COUPLE OF DIFFERENT PRAYERS FOR HEALING. ONE OF THE ONES THAT YOU MIGHT WANT TO START OFF WITH IS, I GIVE UP, LORD. YOU TAKE CARE OF IT. BECAUSE WHEN YOU HAVE THOSE MEMORIES POUNDING AWAY IN YOUR SUBCONSCIOUS MIND JUST KIND OF TELLING YOU, YOU ARE GOOD FOR NOTHING OR YOU DON'T DO ANYTHING RIGHT. AND THOSE THINGS ARE THERE, THEY ARE NOT EASILY JUST TO GET RID OF. WHAT YOU HAVE TO DO IS REALLY NUMBER ONE, YOU HAVE TO LOOK AT THOSE COMMENTS FROM A MATURE ADULT PERSPECTIVE. AND THE SECOND THING IS, YOU ARE GOING TO HAVE TO RETRAIN YOUR SUBCONSCIOUS MIND TO HAVE ANOTHER SELF IMAGE. I HAVE A BOOK THAT I'M JUST DOING RIGHT NOW ON CONTENDING WITH EVIL THROUGH VIRTUE AND PRAYER CALLED, OUT OF DARKNESS. IT'S NOT READY AND STILL NINE MONTHS OUT. BUT IN THAT CHAPTER 9 OF THAT BOOK, I HAVE ABOUT 10 PAGES ARE PRECISELY HOW TO SORT OF RETRAIN THAT SUBCONSCIOUS MIND SO THAT YOU ARE NOT GOING TO BE SUBCONSCIOUSLY PLAYING THE TAPES. AND WHAT I MEAN BY SUBCONSCIOUS, YOU DON'T EVEN KNOW YOU ARE PLAYING THE TAPES. BUT YOU ARE PLAYING THE TAPES. IT'S AFFECTING WHO YOU ARE AND EVERY TIME YOU GET READY TO COMMIT YOURSELF TO SOME ACTION, UP COMES THAT TAPE AGAIN, UNBEKNOWNST TO YOU. IT'S SUBCONSCIOUS, REMEMBER. AND IT STARTS TELLING YOU YOU ARE INCAPABLE OF DOING THIS, OR YOU ARE A DREADED PERSONALITY OR WHO IN THE WORLD DO YOU THINK YOU ARE TO BE DOING SOMETHING VIRTUOUS LIKE THIS, YOU LITTLE RAT. AND SO FORTH, AND SO ON. SO, IF THIS IS THE PROBLEM THAT'S GOING ON AND IT MAY COME FROM TEACHERS OR PARENTS WHO PROBABLY DIDN'T EVEN KNOW THAT THEY WERE DOING THIS. BUT THEY JUST DID IT. YOU ARE GOING TO HAVE TO RETRAIN YOURSELF. AND YOU USE THOSE SPONTANEOUS PRAYERS FOR HEALING IN CHAPTER 4 OF THE BOOK. THAT'S ANOTHER MAJOR SOURCE. THERE ARE OTHER REASONS FOR INFERIORITY ABOUT THAT, BUT GENERALLY THAT'S ONE. OR FEELING YOU WERE NOT COMPETITIVE IN SCHOOL. I WAS NEVER A GOOD ATHLETE. AND I JUST GOT OVER IT BY DOING THINGS THAT I WAS GOOD AT. SO, YOU JUST HAVE TO FIND THINGS THAT YOU ARE GOOD AT. >> Doug: WERE YOU ONE OF THOSE MATH-LETE? >> YEAH, I LIKED MATH, SCIENCE, AND DEBATE. AND I JUST LOVED DOING THAT STUFF. AND I GOT ALL MY COMPETITIVE URGES OUT BEING A DEBATER AND ALSO -- >> CHOPPING UP YOUR OPPONENT. >> Father: WELL, I WAS THE RELIGION GUY AND I WAS OPEN TO ALL DEBATES ON THE SUBJECT. SO, PEOPLE WOULD SNEAK UP TO ME AND GO, ALL RIGHT. LET ME SEE IF I HAVE THIS RIGHT NOW. GOD KNOWS EVERYTHING IN THE FUTURE, DOESN'T HE. AND I SAY, I KNOW WHERE THIS IS GOING. YES, HE DOES. AND GOD KNOWS THEREFORE IF YOU ARE GOING TO GO TO HELL, DOESN'T HE. YES, HE DOES. AND IT'S WORSE TO GO TO HELL THAN IT IS TO HAVE EVER BEEN BORN, ISN'T THAT RIGHT. WELL, YOU MIGHT SAY THAT. YOU KNOW. SO, YOU HAVE TO NUANCE. AND I SAY, YES, I DO HAVE A NUANCE. BECAUSE REMEMBER, PEOPLE THAT GO TO HELL CHOOSE TO GO TO HELL BECAUSE THEY THINK IT'S GOING TO MAKE THEM HAPPY. THEY THINK SIN AND SELF-WORSHIP AND SO ON ARE GOING TO MAKE THEM HAPPY. THEY CHOOSE TO GO THERE OH, THIS IS A NUANCE WE HAVEN'T HEARD OF. AND YOU GET THE POINT. YES, SO, I GUESS I DID HAVE A LONG HISTORY OF DOING THESE THINGS. WELL, NOW IF THAT'S THE CASE, THEN HAVE YOU A SENSE OF YOUR GIFTEDNESS. AND THE WHOLE IDEA OF SELF ESTEEM IS BE HAPPY WITH WHAT YOU HAVE. AND GRATEFUL TO GOD WITH THE GOOD THAT YOU CAN DO FOR YOUR FAMILY, YOUR FRIENDS, THE CHURCH, THE KINGDOM OF GOD, ET CETERA. JUST BE GRATEFUL FOR THE GOOD THAT YOU CAN DO. THAT'S ALL GOD EXPECTS. THERE IS A THIRD REASON FOR THIS KIND OF FEELING OF SELF LOATHING AND THAT'S A SPIRITUAL REASON. AND I'M JUST GOING TO CUT TO THE CHASE HERE BECAUSE I HAVE ALREADY GIVEN YOU A DEFINITE BLOVIATION ON THAT. HERE'S THE ANSWER. THAT'S THE ACCUSER OF YOUR HUMAN NATURE. GO BACK TO THE BOOK OF REVELATIONS, GO BACK TO THE BOOK OF JOB. WHO IS THE ACCUSER WHO IS SAYING, YOU ARE A RAT, YOU ARE UNFIT, YOU ARE NOT A GOOD PERSON, YOU DON'T HAVE ANYTHING. THE MAIN THING TO REMEMBER IS THAT IS SATAN. SATAN IS THE ONE WHO WANTS YOU TO BELIEVE THAT YOU ARE WORTHLESS AND THAT YOU ARE GOOD FOR NOTHING AND THAT YOU OUGHT TO, YOU KNOW, BE REALLY LOATHING YOURSELF. THIS IS NOT THE HOLY SPIRIT IN THE LEAST. AND WHAT SATAN HOPES TO GET FROM THIS IS NOT ONLY YOU TO HATE YOURSELF, BUT FOR YOU TO FEEL SO BADLY ABOUT YOURSELF THAT YOU CAN'T BE IN THE PRESENCE OF GOD WITHOUT HAVING TO RUN BECAUSE YOU THINK THAT GOD CAN'T STAND YOU IN THE PRECISE WAY THAT SATAN HAS ACCUSED YOU. WHICH IS TOTALLY AND 100%, AND IN ALL WAYS, ALL WRONG. FOR ALL INTENSIVE PURPOSES, GOD LOVES YOU, LIKE THAT FATHER OF THE PRODIGAL SON. GOD LOVES YOU AS JESUS' ABBA. GOD LOVES YOU IN SUCH AMAZING WAYS, EVEN IN SINFULNESS, RIGHT, AND EVEN IN DISAPPOINTING CONDUCT, THAT HE IS GOING TO RUN OUT TO MEET YOU WHEREVER YOU ARE, IN WHATEVER CONDITION YOU ARE IN. JUST LIKE HE RAN OUT TO MEET THE PRODIGAL SON AFTER HE DID ALL OF THESE THINGS. AND HE'S GOING TO THROW HIS ARMS AROUND YOU, KISS YOU, GIVE YOU THE FAMILY RING AND KILL THE FATTED CALF. YOU GOT TO REMEMBER THAT. DON'T BUY THE SATAN ACCUSER-PACKAGE. REJECT IT OUT OF HAND, AS ST. IGNATIUS SAYS, GO BACK TO THE REVELATION OF JESUS CHRIST IN THE PRODIGAL SON. YOU ARE GOING TO BE OKAY. BUT YOU HAVE TO FIND OUT, WHERE'S THE SELF-LOATHING COMING FROM AND ADDRESS IT FROM THE SOURCE. >> Doug: AND BE WILLING TO BE SOMEWHAT VULNERABLE. BECAUSE IT'S IN THAT HUMILITY AND IN THAT ASKING FOR FORGIVENESS OR FOR GOD'S LOVE THAT ONE IS BEING VULNERABLE. AND WE LIVE IN A SOCIETY TODAY WHERE VULNERABLE IS NOT ON THE TOP OF ANYBODY'S LIST EITHER. >> Father: THAT'S ABSOLUTELY TRUE, DOUG. WE JUST HAVE TO BE WILLING TO PUT OURSELVES RIGHT OUT THERE IN THAT VULNERABILITY. BUT TO SEEK THAT HEALING, TO COME TO GOD, TRUSTING IN HIS LOVE AND CERTAINLY TO CONFRONT MAYBE THESE PAST SUBCONSCIOUS MEMORIES THAT REALLY, YOU KNOW, ARE ECHOES, VOICES FROM THE PAST WHO HAD NO RIGHT TO SAY THOSE THINGS TO US BUT THEY DID. >> IT'S AMAZING, HOW MANY PEOPLE WE THINK ABOUT LATER, WHAT THEY SAID ABOUT US WHO WE OURSELVES DIDN'T HAVE A HIGH OPINION OR OPINION BUT FOR SOME REASON WE KEEP PLAYING THAT OVER AND OVER AGAIN IN OUR HEAD. >> Father: EXACTLY. I MEAN, IT IS THE MOST REMARKABLE THING. YOU KNOW, THERE WAS A BOOK THAT WAS WRITTEN BY A MINISTER, YOU KNOW, I FORGET. IT'S CALLED IRON MAN OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT. NOT THE RACE. BUT. >> OR THE SUPERHERO. >> Father: RIGHT. YEAH, NOT THE SUPERHERO. AND IT WAS REALLY ABOUT A GUY WHO LET EVERYBODY'S COMMENTS GET TO HIM. SO, HE SAID, YOU KNOW, IF HE HAD COPPER, AND IT'S A GOOD CONDUCTOR AND IF HE HAD THAT TO HIS HEART, EVERYBODY THAT INSULTED HIM OR GAVE HIM THE BRUSHOFF, HE WOULD TAKE THE STUFF AND INTERNALIZE IT AND BE DEBILITATED. SO, HE DECIDES THAT HE'S GOING TO MAKE ALL OF THOSE CIRCUITS AND CONDUITS IRON. THAT'S NOT THAT GOOD OF A CONDUCTOR. AND HE WAS GOING TO LET IT MATTER BUT HE WAS NOT GOING TO LET IT JUST SHOCK HIM EVERY TIME AND LET IT BLOW HIM RIGHT OFF THE PROVERBIAL HEART CHARTS. AND HE BECAME A MUCH SANER INDIVIDUAL FOR IT, AND A MUCH BETTER MINISTER. I FORGET THE EXACT NAME OF THE BOOK. BUT SOMETIMES WE JUST HAVE TO BUILD UP THAT IMMUNITY, WHETHER WE HAVE A HIGH OR LOW OPINION OF SOMEBODY, JUST AS THEY SAY, HEY, YOU KNOW, YOU ARE ENTITLED TO HAVE WHATEVER OPINION YOU WANT. I HAVE BEEN INSULTED BY BETTER PEOPLE. >> Doug: THAT'S RIGHT. EXACTLY. [LAUGHTER] >> Doug: HERE'S ANOTHER QUESTION. THIS IS IN AN EMAIL, INTERNATIONAL QUESTION HERE. I AM UNDERGOING PHYSICAL SUFFERING FROM A TUMOR. I AM IN SERIOUS PAIN, AND I CAN'T SLEEP AT ALL. PLEASE PRAY FOR ME, AS ANALGESICS ARE NO LONGER REDUCING THE PAINS. MY HOPE IS IN GOD ALONE. THANKS FOR YOUR GOOD WORK ON EWTN. YOU'RE GIVING HOPE TO PEOPLE LIKE MYSELF. I REMAIN GRATEFUL. BARNABAS IN NIGERIA. >> Father: TWO QUICK THOUGHTS, DEFINITELY PRAYER CAN BE OF IMMENSE IMPORTANCE, PARTICULARLY, YOU KNOW, WHEN WE GET TO THE OFFERING UP OF THE SUFFERING AND INCREDIBLY IMPORTANT TO YOU. AND BEFORE YOU GIVE UP ON ANALGESICS, YOU MIGHT WANT TO JUST GET A SECOND OPINION ABOUT SOME OTHER ANALGESICS AVAILABLE. AND THE OTHER THING IS, IF YOU CAN GET TO A BIO FEEDBACK CLINIC, THAT CAN ABSOLUTELY HELP YOU. NOT LIKE A NARCOTIC SOLUTION, RIGHT. BUT IT'S NOT GOING TO BE A SOLUTION BUT THE BIO FEEDBACK SOLUTION CAN LEAD TO A REAL CURBING OF PAIN THAT ANALGESICS MAY NOT BE ABLE TO CURB. BUT YES, DEFINITELY I WILL PRAY. AND OFFER EVERY BIT OF THAT UP. BECAUSE YOU ARE GOING TO BE LIKE THERESE OF LISEAUX WHO ESSENTIALLY SUFFERED TERRIBLE PAIN HERSELF BUT EVERY SINGLE BIT OF IT IS JUST TRANSFORMATIVE, I'M CONVINCED, NOT ONLY OF THE CRIMINALS AND PEOPLE SHE PRAYED FOR AND PEOPLE WHO HAD NO ONE ELSE TO PRAY FOR THEM. >> Doug: LET'S GET ANOTHER QUESTION IN HERE AS WE CONTINUE ON IN THE FIRST HALF HOUR OF THE PROGRAM. HERE'S AN EMAIL. NOW THAT I AM RETIRED, AND MY ONLY CHILD HAS HIS OWN RESPONSIBILITIES, I AM BASICALLY ALONE FACING SOME MEDICAL ISSUES. THIS MAKES ME VERY ANXIOUS AND FEARFUL AS I DON'T KNOW WHO OR WHAT WOULD BE MY MITIGATING FACTOR SHOULD ANY REAL CRISIS OCCUR. SPEAK TO US REAL ADULTS WHO ARE SOCIALLY ALONE. SO, SOUNDS LIKE THERE'S A COUPLE OF ISSUES THAT PROBABLY COME TOGETHER THERE, PROBABLY AS WE KNOW, CERTAINLY THROUGH EWTN, NOT AN UNUSUAL PROBLEM. >> Father: NO, NOT AN UNUSUAL PROBLEM. I WOULD SAY THAT THERE'S A COUPLE OF DIFFERENT THINGS. AND THE FIRST THING THAT YOU WANT TO DO, EVEN IF YOUR SON IS AWAY FROM YOU, YOU WANT TO BE SURE THAT YOU HAVE SOME OF THESE, LIKE, POWER OF ATTORNEY, OR SOMETHING OF THAT NATURE SIGNED OFF SO THAT HE HAS SOME AUTHORITY TO HELP YOU, YOU KNOW, IF YOU ARE IN SOME WAY INDISPOSED AND THAT HE CAN MAKE SOME DECISIONS IF YOU ARE UNCONSCIOUS. YOU HAVE TO GET SOME OF THAT STRAIGHTENED OUT. NOW, I DON'T KNOW WHAT DIOCESE YOU ARE FROM BUT WHAT YOU WANT TO DO IS CALL UP YOUR LOCAL DIOCESAN CHANCERY THERE AND ASK THE PERSON TO DIRECT YOU TO THE MEDICAL ETHICS PERSON THERE AND THERE'S CATHOLIC FORMS, RIGHT, FOR DURABLE POWER OF ATTORNEY, ET CETERA, THAT YOU CAN GET FROM YOUR CHANCERY. AND THE FIRST THING, GET THOSE THINGS. SIT DOWN WITH YOUR SON AND FIGURE OUT WHICH BOXES YOU WANT TO CHECK OFF. IF THEY ARE ON THE CATHOLIC FORMS, THEY ARE ALL LEGITIMATE. THEY ARE APPROPRIATE. SO, IT'S JUST YOUR DECISION WHICH ONE YOU WANT OR DON'T WANT. JUST CHECK OFF THE BOXES AND GET YOUR SON TO SIGN THE DOCUMENTS. THE SECOND THING, IF YOU ARE WORRIED ABOUT GETTING YOU TO A PLACE TO GO, LIKE, HOSPITAL OR MEDICAL TREATMENT, SAY, IF YOU ARE BY YOURSELF, YOU CAN'T DRIVE YOUR SON IS DISTANCE. YOU DON'T HAVE ANY FRIENDS OR WHO CAN DO THIS. WELL, THERE'S TWO THINGS YOU CAN DO. FIRST THING, CALL UP THE CHANCERY THERE AND GET YOUR SOCIAL PARISH MINISTRIES COMMITTEE. AND A LOT OF THESE PARISHES HAVE VOLUNTEER DRIVERS THAT DO PRECISELY THESE KINDS OF THINGS. LIKE, MY MOM DID VOLUNTEER DRIVING FOR PEOPLE WHEN SHE WAS STILL ALIVE THROUGH HER PARISH. SO I AM THINKING THAT. AND THE SECOND THING, THERE ARE ACTUALLY SECOND THINGS THAT ARE SET UP, PRESUMING YOU ARE ALREADY ON MEDICARE, YOU HAVE ACCESS TO THE RIDE AND IF YOU ARE HAVING TROUBLE WITH TRANSPORTATION OR GET TO GO A HOSPITAL, YOU CAN ACTUALLY MAKE ARRANGEMENTS AT THE MEDICAL CARE OFFICE, CALL THE NUMBER FOR WHAT'S CALLED THE RIDE OR WHATEVER THEY MAY CALL IT. AND THEY CAN TAKE YOU DOWN TO A STORE TO DO SHOPPING, THEY CAN ACTUALLY HAVE A DELIVERY OF GOODS TO YOU IN YOUR HOME AND MOST OF WHICH ARE PAID FOR BY MEDICARE. AND THE FEE FOR TRANSPORTATION, I MEAN, THEY EVEN HAVE VANS THAT TAKE WHEELCHAIRS AND ALL KINDS OF THINGS AND THEY WILL GET TO YOU A MEDICAL ESTABLISHMENTS AND SO FORTH, SO ON. ALL KINDS OF THINGS THAT YOU CAN DO TO AVAIL YOURSELF. AND YOU KNOW WHAT, YOUR LOCAL PARISH PROBABLY AS THE HAS THE NUMBER AS WELL FOR THE RIDE. YOU CAN DEFINITELY DO THAT. AND THAT'S OF COURSE A LOCAL GOVERNMENT, FUNCTION THERE AT THE CHURCH. AND THEY HAVE ALL OF THE NUMBERS. CATHOLIC CHARITIES ALSO HAS ALL THOSE NUMBERS. YOU ARE VERY LIKELY TO HAVE IN ANY FAIRLY LARGE DIOCESE, TO MEDIUM DIOCESE, YOU PROBABLY HAVE A CATHOLIC CHARITIES OFFICE WHICH WILL BE GLAD TO GIVE YOU ALL THE NUMBERS AND EVEN HELP YOU MAKE THE ARRANGEMENTS. >> Doug: AND SOMETIMES MEALS ON WHEELS, LIKE, SUPPORTING YOU AND YOU CAN'T GET OUT AND EUCHARISTIC MINISTERS, EUCHARIST BEING BROUGHT TO THE HOMES AS WELL AND THOSE KINDS OF THINGS WHERE PEOPLE COME, VISIT, SAY, WITH SOMEBODY SICK OR HOME BOUND FOR PERIOD OF TIME OF THE AND LET ME ASK YOU THIS, ALSO, BEFORE WE GO TO THE BREAK. THE IDEA, OBVIOUSLY, PEOPLE ARE AFRAID OF DYING BUT SEEMS TO BE AN INCREDIBLE FEAR TODAY ESPECIALLY MAYBE OF DYING ALONE. AND NOBODY WANTS TO DIE ALONE, OF COURSE, BECAUSE WHEN PUSH COMES TO SHOVE, LOVE IS THE MOST IMPORTANT THING AND THEY SAY, LOVE IS COEQUAL TO FAITH IN OUR LIVES. SO, OF COURSE, WE ALWAYS WANT TO BE IN THE COMPANY WITH A FAMILY MEMBER OR FRIEND OR CHILD AND SIMPLY BECAUSE THERE'S THAT COMFORT OF GOING THROUGH, DEATH IS ALIENATING FOR EVERY ONE. EVEN PEOPLE OF FAITH. THE ONLY PEOPLE WHO SUBCONSCIOUS ESCAPE THIS, WE KNOW THIS FROM THE DEATH STUDIES ARE THOSE WHO HAVE HAD A NEAR DEATH EXPERIENCE. THEY ARE THE ONLY ONES FOR WHOM SUBCONSCIOUS THAT ANXIETY DISAPPEARS. EVERYBODY ELSE, INCLUDING VERY RELIGIOUS PEOPLE, AS A RELIGIOUS PERSON YOU CAN GET RID OF THE CONSCIOUS DEATH ANXIETY BUT YOU DON'T GET RID OF THE NON DEATH SUBCONSCIOUS ANXIETY. SO, OBVIOUSLY, HAVING SOMEBODY TO HOLD YOUR HAND, PRAY THE ROSARY WITH, STAY WITH YOU AND A PERSON, WHEN THEY ARE SICK, DYING, AND VULNERABLE, EVEN SAYING THE ROSARY TO FOCUS ON THE CONCENTRATION. BUT YOU CAN FOLLOW ALONG WITH A LOVED ONE TO SAY A ROSARY OR PRAY SOME PSALMS, PRAY PRAYERS OF, READING THE SCRIPTURES. THAT'S PERFECTLY PLAUSIBLE. THERE IS A WHOLE MINISTRY OF PEOPLE THAT WORK ON THIS, NOT ONLY THROUGH THE DIOCESE, BUT ALSO THROUGH THE PARISH. THERE ARE GRIEF MINISTRIES AND PEOPLE THAT HELP PEOPLE TO DIE. THERE ARE ALSO, WHEN YOU GO INTO HOSPICE, THEY ASK YOU WHAT RELIGION YOU ARE. THEY DO TAKE CARE OF RELIGIOUS NEEDS IN THE HOSPICE VERY MUCH IF YOU ARE IN THAT. YOU CALL UP HOSPICE IN IF YOU ARE IN A STATE OF TERMINAL ILLNESS AND YOU ARE GOING TO DIE. BUT YOU DON'T HAVE TO WAIT UNTIL YOU GET TO HOSPICE. ALL KIND OF PARISHES AND DIOCESAN FOLKS ARE THERE TO HELP FOLKS RIGHT THROUGH THE DYING PROCESS. AS WELL AS, YOU KNOW, CALL THEM UP BEFORE YOU ARE IN THE DYING PROCESS JUST TO HAVE COMPANIONSHIP. >> AND THEY UNDERSTAND YOUR WISHES ARE IF YOU DON'T HAVE A DURABLE POWER OF ATTORNEY OR NOT A RELATIVE NEARBY AND MAKE SURE THAT YOUR PERSPECTIVE AS A CATHOLIC IS FOLLOWED THROUGH AS WELL. WITH THAT, WE'RE GOING TO TAKE A BREAK HERE. AND WE'RE TALKING TO FATHER SPITZER. WE'LL BE BACK WITH HIM MOMENTARILY AS WE TAKE A BREAK HERE IN THE MIDST OF "FR. SPITZER'S UNIVERSE", WHERE FAITH AND REASON INTERSECT ON A WEEKLY BASIS. STAY WITH US, MUCH MORE AHEAD. ♪ ♪ >> Doug: AND MAKING SENSE OF SCIENCE, REASON, AND FAITH RIGHT HERE ON "FR. SPITZER'S UNIVERSE" AS WE DELVE NOW INTO CHAPTER 7 OF HIS BOOK, FINDING LIGHT IN THE DARKNESS. FOUNDATIONS FOR OPPORTUNITIES FOR SUFFERING. AND OF COURSE, WE'LL TURN ONCE MORE TO FATHER SPITZER. ONLY CATHOLICS WOULD HAVE A CHAPTER THAT'S GOT INTERIOR AND EXTERIOR OPPORTUNITIES. AND I THINK THIS IS INTERESTING, SINCE WHEN IS SUFFERING AN OPPORTUNITY? I THOUGHT IT WAS JUST SOMETHING WE HAD TO PUT UP WITH? >> Father: WELL, SINCE JESUS CAME INTO THE WORLD, SUFFERING BECAME AN OPPORTUNITY. WE KNOW THAT PRIOR TO JESUS, WHAT WAS GOING ON. AND MINE, YOU KNOW, OBVIOUSLY, WE'VE SEEN THE LAMENTATIONS THAT WE JUST TALKED ABOUT IN THE PSALMS AND THE DESIRE FOR GOD TO, YOU KNOW, HELP. ECCLESIASTES, ONE OF THE BOOKS OF THE OLD TESTAMENT, WISDOM BOOKS, AND IT IS KIND OF FATALISTIC. I MEAN, THERE'S NO NOTHING THAT YOU CAN DO ABOUT SUFFERING, DON'T WORRY ABOUT IT, GET EXCITED ABOUT IT, JUST PUT YOURSELF IN THE HANDS OF GOD AND YOU KNOW, THERE'S GOING TO BE TIMES OF SUFFERING, TIMES OF HAPPINESS, YOU KNOW. AND TURN TURN TURN. SO, THERE'S NOTHING THAT YOU CAN DO ABOUT IT. >> WERE YOU A FAN OF THE BIRDS GROWING UP? >> YOU KNOW, ACTUALLY, I WAS EDUCATED ENOUGH FOR MY GOOD CATECHISM CLASS TO RECOGNIZE THAT SONG WAS FROM ECCLESIASTES. I THOUGHT, HEY, YOU KNOW, I RECOGNIZE THAT! BUT I HAVE TO ADMIT NOT MANY WERE. BUT THE LONG AND SHORT OF IT IS, YEAH, YOU HAVE A VARIETY OF RESPONSES BEFORE JESUS WHICH WERE NOT THAT OPPORTUNISTIC. EITHER A LAMENTATION TO GOD OR IT WAS, YOU KNOW, JUST BE FATALISTIC ABOUT IT. THERE'S NOTHING THAT YOU CAN DO. JUST PUT YOURSELF IN THE HANDS OF GOD. THIS IS YOUR FATE. THAT'S IT. AND THEN, JESUS COMES ALONG. AND ALL OF A SUDDEN, THE IDEA OF SUFFERING AS OPPORTUNITY IS THERE. NOW, THERE IS IN JOB, THERE ARE TWO STRANDS OF THEOLOGY WHERE SUFFERING IS AN OPPORTUNITY, RIGHT? I MEAN, THE FIRST STRAND OF COURSE IS, YOU KNOW, IF YOU SINNED, YOU ARE GOING TO GET WHACKED FOR IT. THAT STRAND JESUS BASICALLY SUPERCEDES. SO, HE MOVES BEYOND THAT JOBIAN STRETCH. AND THERE'S A SECOND STRAND IN JOB THAT SATAN DOES IT. BUT SATAN IS THIS KIND OF ACCUSER IN TESTER. HE'S CHECKING OUT AND SEEING IF GOD IS TOO MERCIFUL OR NOT, OR WHETHER OR NOT GOD IS SEEING WHETHER JOB IS AS GOOD AS GOD THINGS. SO, YOU KNOW, SATAN COMES IN THERE AND HE SAYS, LET ME GIVE HIM THE ONCE OVER. LET ME MAKE SURE, I DON'T THINK JOB IS AS GOOD AS YOU THINK HE IS. SO, HERE'S THE ACCUSER WHO IS COMING DOWN THE PIKE. JESUS SUPERCEDES EVEN THAT VIEW. BELIEVE ME, HE HAS A VERY PROFOUND VIEW OF SATAN AND HE'S, YOU KNOW, JUST DETERMINED TO KILL THE KINGDOM OF SATAN THROUGH NOT ONLY SUCCEEDING AT TEMPTATIONS BUT ALSO THROUGH HIS MINISTRY OF EXORCISMS AND HIS MINISTRY OF PASSION, HE'S GOING TO DO IT. AGAIN, THOUGH, THAT'S NOT REALLY A STRAND THAT JESUS HOLDS ON TO. THERE IS A THIRD STRAND IN JOB THAT IS VERY PROFOUND. ESSENTIALLY, THAT SUFFERING BRINGS WISDOM. SUFFERING IS MEDICINAL. WHAT THAT MEANS IS, SUFFERING CAN PURIFY US IN OUR FAITH AND PURIFIES US IN OUR HEARTS. FOR JOB, IT'S MOSTLY THE PURIFICATION OF FAITH. JUST LEARN HOW TO PUT YOUR TRUST IN GOD. DON'T BE SO COMPLETELY ARROGANT THAT YOU THINK YOU KNOW EVERYTHING THAT'S GOING ON WITH GOD. IN THE ELIHU PARTS OF THE DIALOGUE IN JOB, WE SEE THE REAL STRAND THAT GOD IS TRYING TO GET JOB TO PURIFY HIS TRUST IN HIM AND TO PURIFY HIS WISDOM. AND JOB IS A WISDOM BOOK. SO, WE SEE THAT PART OF JOB. AND THAT, JESUS DOES KEEP THAT STRAND FROM JOB. HE DOES NOT SUPERCEDE IT IN THE OLD TESTAMENT. BUT JESUS ADDS A VARIETY OF OTHER THINGS. SO, HE'S GOING TO, YOU KNOW, ADD FOUR THINGS THAT ARE REALLY IMPORTANT. THE FIRST THING IS, REMEMBER THE RESURRECTION IN THE OLD TESTAMENT IS PRETTY AMBIGUOUS. FOR A LONG TIME, RIGHT, PRIOR TO THE EXILE, THE IDEA OF A RESURRECTION IN JOB -- NOT IN JOB, I MEAN, IN THE OLD TESTAMENT IS VERY TENUOUS INDEED. THERE MAY NOT EVEN BE A NOTION OF THE RESURRECTION IN THE OLD TESTAMENT PRIOR TO THE EXILE. NOW, AFTER THE EXILE IS FINISHED AND YOU ARE NOW DEALING WITH THE LATER 5 HUNDREDS. WHAT'S HAPPENING THEN, THAT IS, B.C., BUT WHAT'S HAPPENING WITH THE BUILDING OF THE TEMPLE, YOU HAVE A LOT OF HELLENISTIC INFLUENCES COMING IN. HAVE YOU A LOT OF INFLUENCES OF THE PROPHETS WHO DID HAVE A PERSPECTIVE ON THE RESURRECTION THAT BECOME AS INFLUENTIAL AS TORAH. SO, BY THE TIME YOU HAVE THE SECOND TEMPLE GOING UP OR WHAT WAS CALLED SECOND TEMPLE JUDAISM, YOU DO HAVE A NOTION OF THE RESURRECTION INCREASING IN STRENGTH. SO, BY THE TIME YOU GET TO THE BOOK OF MACCABEES, A BOOK WHICH SOME PROTESTANTS DON'T ACCEPT BUT NEVERTHELESS, WE DO AS CATHOLICS. BUT BY THE TIME YOU GET TO MACCABEES, IT'S VERY STRONG. AND BY THE TIME YOU GET TO THE BOOK OF WISDOM, IT'S VERY STRONG. AND THOSE ARE LATER BOOKS INFLUENCED DEFINITELY BY HELLENISTIC THOUGHTS AND INFLUENCED IN THEIR OWN WAY WITH A MIXTURE OF HELLENISTIC, PROPHETIC, AND JUDAISM AND THEN YOU COME INTO THE PERIOD OF TIME WITH JESUS IN JERUSALEM. JESUS HAS A RADICAL, DEFINITIVE PROCLAMATION OF THE RESURRECTION. HIS VIEW OF THE RESURRECTION IS THAT YOU ARE GOING TO BECOME LIKE ANGELS. YOU ARE NOT JUST GOING TO HAVE A RESUSCITATED CORPSE, YOU ARE GOING TO BE LIKE ANGELS AND YOU ARE GOING TO BE THERE IN GLORY. AND THE LIGHT OF THE RISEN CHRIST AS ANGELS. OF COURSE, HE DOESN'T, THE CHRISTIAN CHURCH SEES THAT JESUS' PREDICTION ABOUT WHAT THE RESURRECTION IS GOING TO BE IS REFLECTED BY HIS OWN RESURRECTION. RIGHT. WHEN HE RISES, HE RISES IN SPIRIT, IN GLORY, IN POWER, IN LIGHT, AND OF COURSE, WE'VE SEEN THIS ON THE SHROUD OF TURIN, THE 6 BILLION WATTS LITERALLY THROWN UP FOR 1/40 BILLIONTH OF A SECOND AS THAT TRANSFORM INTO A SPIRITUAL BODY THERE IN THE TOMB. NOW, THAT PART OF THE RESURRECTION, JESUS DEFINITIVE. NO QUESTION ABOUT IT. AND HE IS DEFINITIVE ABOUT THE ETERNITY OF RISEN LIFE. HE'S DEFINITIVE ABOUT THE NATURE OF RISEN LIFE. AND HE'S DEFINITIVE THAT RISEN LIFE IS WITH AN UNCONDITIONALLY LOVING GOD AND ALL OF THE PEOPLE IN THE KINGDOM OF GOD, LIKE A BANQUET IN THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN WE'RE ALL AROUND ENJOYING ONE ANOTHER WITHOUT ANY EGO OBFUSCATING OUR POINT OF VIEW OR THE LOVE AND GOODNESS OF OTHER PEOPLE. AND JESUS' SENSE OF THE DOCTRINE OF THE DEATH AND RESURRECTION IS VERY COMPLETE. WHAT THAT DOES, AND THIS IS REALLY IMPORTANT. WHAT THAT DOES, WHAT ARE WE LIVING FOR? WE'RE LIVING FOR THAT SALVATION. WHAT SALVATION? NOT JUST THE RESURRECTION, GLORY, POWER, AND LIGHT, BUT A RESURRECTION IN UNCONDITIONAL LOVE. WELL, WHAT'S LOVE? JESUS DEFINES IT IN THE BEATITUDES, RIGHT. HUMBLE HEARTEDNESS, POOR IN SPIRIT, GENTLE-HEARTEDNESS, THE MEEK. RIGHT? YOU KNOW, BEING CONCERNED FIRST AND FOREMOST FOR OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS, OUR SALVATION. AND THEN, MERCY WHICH MEANS COMPASSION AND FORGIVENESS OF OTHERS BEING PURE OF HEART, BEING PEACEMAKERS AND SO FORTH. SO, WE KNOW EXACTLY WHAT HE MEANS BY THAT LOVE. SO, WHAT ARE WE DOING IN THIS LIFE? WE ARE PREPARING OURSELVES FOR THAT UNCONDITIONAL LOVE WHEN WE'RE NOT GOING TO ONLY EXPERIENCE GOD WITHOUT THE OBFUSCATION OF EGO, BUT WE'RE GOING TO EXPERIENCE EVERYBODY IN THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN WITHOUT OBFUSCATION OF THEIR EGO. WE'RE GOING TO SEE THEM IN THEIR PURE LOVE, TRANSFORMABILITY AND WE'RE GOING TO RELATE TO TRILLIONS OF PEOPLE AND RELATE TO GO GOD. IT'S JUST GOING TO BE AN ETERNITY OF JOY BECAUSE OF COURSE, IF YOU SEE PEOPLE THAT WAY, AND IF YOU I THOUGHT YOU COULD BE WITH FRIENDS UNTIL 4:00 IN THE MORNING WITHOUT NOTICING TIME AND IMAGINE, IF YOU DON'T HAVE ANY EGO PRESENT AND THEY DON'T HAVE ANY EGO PRESENT AND YOU ARE WITH GOD WITH HIS UNCONDITIONAL AND UNRESTRICTED LOVE, YOU ARE GOING TO BE IN BLISS AND TIME WILL STAND STILL. IT'S GOING TO BLOW BY ANYTHING WE EXPERIENCE IN THIS LIFE WITH FAMILY AND FRIENDS. SO, THIS IS PRECISELY WHAT JESUS IS SAYING, WE'VE GOT TO PREPARE FOR THAT. SO, WHAT DO YOU MEAN TO PREPARE FOR THAT. >> Doug: I WAS GOING TO SAY BECAUSE THE RESULTS SOUND FANTASTIC, ALL OF THE GLORY BODY STUFF. BUT THIS CHAPTER HAS SOMETHING TO DO WITH SUFFERING HERE. NOW, YOU ARE GETTING TO THAT, RIGHT? >> WELL, HOW DO YOU DETACH FROM YOUR OWN EGO. HOW DO YOU DETACH FROM THE DESIRE TO, WELL, SELF WORSHIP. HOW DO YOU DETACH FROM JUST BEING DOMINATED BY SENSUAL DESIRES SO THAT YOU CAN REALLY BE WITH OTHERS SINCERELY, RIGHT? NEVER WANTING TO USE ANOTHER PERSON. NEVER BEING KIND OF, YOU KNOW, OVERCOME BY GREED. NEVER HAVING AN ULTERIOR AGENDA, ULTERIOR MOTIVE, RIGHT? JUST HOW DO YOU BEGIN TO DO THAT. WELL, YOU DO HAVE TO BECOME HUMBLE HEARTED. AND PAUL SAYS, THIS IS WHERE SUFFERING COMES IN. THANK GOD FOR MY THORN IN THE FLESH! THANK GOD THAT THE LORD SENT AN ANGEL OF SATAN TO BEAT ME, TO KEEP ME FROM GETTING PROUD BECAUSE, BOY, I JUST LOVE GETTING HUMILITY EVEN IF IT TAKES SUFFERING, AND TAKES THE THORN IN THE FLESH, EVEN IF IT'S THE HARD WAY. I WILL TAKE THE HUMILITY BECAUSE THAT'S LEADING ME TO THE UNOBFUSCATED VISION OF THE OTHER WITHOUT MY EGO IN THE PROCESS. THAT'S WHAT'S LEADING ME TO THE FREEDOM OUT OF DARKNESS, THE DARKNESS OF SUPERBIA AND THE DARKNESS OF PRIDE, THE DARKNESS OF GREED, THE DARKNESS OF ENVY, THE DARKNESS OF JUST UNMITIGATED ANGER AND SOME SLIGHT SOMETHING THAT DOESN'T MEAN A HILL OF BEANS IN THE WHOLE ORDER OF SALVATION. BUT NEVERTHELESS, WE'RE JUST BLOWING IT OUT OF PROPORTION. SO, WE CAN GET FREED FROM THOSE DEADLY SINS. AND WHEN WE'RE FREED, WE'RE NOT JUST GOING TO SAY, YOU KNOW, BE FREE WITHOUT ANY HELP. WE'RE GOING TO NEED SUFFERING TO HELP US TO GET FREED FROM THOSE DEADLY SINS. I JUST DON'T KNOW A PERSON WHO WILL NOT ADMIT THAT THAT IS THE CASE. BUT REMEMBER, IT'S NOT SUFFERING ALONE THAT FREES US FROM THE DEADLY SINS. IT'S SUFFERING PLUS FAITH, THAT IS TO SAY, TRUST IN GOD, TRUST IN JESUS AND HIS RESURRECTION. SUFFERING PLUS FAITH WILL FREE US FROM THOSE DEADLY SINS. AND THE GRACE OF THE HOLY SPIRIT CAN LEAD US AWAY FROM THE HOLY SINS AND THE GRACE OF THE HOLY SPIRIT THAT CAN GIVE US ENLIGHTENMENT THROUGH SUFFERING AND SHOCK US OUT OF SUPERFICIALITY THROUGH SUFFERING, THAT'S WHAT CAN DO THE JOB. I MEAN, WE'RE NOT GOING TO GET GENTLE HEARTED PROBABLY WITHOUT A LITTLE SUFFERING. I MEAN, FOR ALL INTENSIVE PURPOSES, RIGHT. IF WE'VE GOT ALL THE ADVANTAGES IN THE WORLD, RIGHT, NO SUFFERING IN OUR LIVES, WE CAN TEND TO BE AS HARSH AS THE STOICS, LIKE MARCUS AURELIAS, I MEAN, THESE GUYS WERE LIKE HOLY MACKEREL. FACES OF GRANITE. THAT'S NOT WHAT WE WANT. WE WANT THE OPPOSITE OF THE STOICS, NEITZCHE AND, THOU WHAT MAKES ME STRONGER DOES NOT KILL ME. THAT'S NOT WHAT JESUS IS ESPOUSING. HE'S SAYING FAITH SHOCKS US OUT OF SUPERFICIALITY, MAKES US MORE DEPEND ON THE UPON THE REALITY OF GOD AND MAKING US THINK ABOUT LOVE, COMPASSION, AND EMPATHY FOR OTHERS IN A POSITIVE WAY THAT COMES THROUGH IDENTIFICATION BEING ABLE TO PUT MYSELF IN ANOTHER PERSON'S SHOES AND TO HAVE THAT EMPATHY AWAKENED WITHIN ME. SUFFERING DOES REMARKABLE STUFF. BUT BOY, I'M TELLING YOU, IF YOU DON'T HAVE SUFFERING PLUS FAITH AND YOU HAVE ALL THE GIFTS IN THE WORLD, YOU ARE LIKELY TO BE A PERSON WHO IS GOING TO HAVE A REAL HARD HEART. YOU ARE LIKELY GOING TO BE A PERSON, RIGHT, WHO IS JUST GOING TO THINK, WELL, YOU KNOW, YOU GOT TO CARRY YOUR OWN WEIGHT. I CARRY MY OWN WEIGHT. YOU OUGHT TO CARRY YOUR OWN WEIGHT. HOW MANY PEOPLE I'VE KNOWN IN MY LIFETIME WHO HAVE BEEN REALLY, REALLY TALENTED PEOPLE WHO GO AROUND TELLING EVERYBODY, OH, I'M CARRYING MY OWN WEIGHT. YOU BETTER CARRY YOUR OWN WEIGHT. AND I ALWAYS THINK TO MYSELF, YEAH, YOU SAY THAT NOW BUT ONE DAY WHEN YOU ARE NOT ABLE TO CARRY YOUR OWN WEIGHT, WE'LL JUST SEE WHETHER THAT LINE CHANGES. AND OF COURSE, IT'S GOING TO BE GOOD IF HIS LINE CHANGES BECAUSE HE THEN MAY FIND HIS WAY TO COMPASSION. AND IF HE FINDS HIS WAY TO COMPASSION, MAYBE HE'LL FIND HIS WAY TO FAITH. AND IF HE FINDS HIS WAY TO FAITH AND COMPASSION, HE'S GOING TO FIND HIS WAY THROUGH THE GRACE OF GOD INTO THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN. AND THAT'S NOT GOING TO BE SO BAD. YOU KNOW, WHEN JESUS, IT'S THAT WHOLE IDEA, SUFFERING IS NOT FAIR. AND AS I ALWAYS SAY, OH, IS THAT RIGHT. WELL, IF YOU DON'T HAVE ANY SUFFERING IN YOUR LIFE, LET'S JUST SEE WHAT THE ODDS OF GETTING TO THAT STATE WHERE I AM FREE ENOUGH TO CHOOSE HEAVEN. WHERE I AM FREE ENOUGH TO CHOOSE GOING INTO A PLACE WHERE THERE ARE WEAK PEOPLE WHO ARE REDEEMED. AND I WILL HAVE NO COMPETITIVE ADVANTAGE IN HEAVEN. NONE. JUST LIKE C.S. LEWIS, THE GREAT DIVORCE. THIS GUY GETS UP TO THE DRINK OF HEAVEN THERE FROM HIS BUS RIDE UP FROM HELL. AND HE'S LOOKING AROUND. AND HE SAYS, HEY, YOU MEAN, THERE'S NO COMPETITIVE ADVANTAGE HERE? EVERYBODY GETS THE SAME AMOUNT OF GLORY? EVERYBODY GETS THE SAME AMOUNT OF ENLIGHTENMENT? I'M JUST ANOTHER SCHNOOK. NO WAY. I'M GOING BACK TO HELL. AND YOU KNOW, I'M GOING TO GO WHERE I CAN GAIN SOME ADVANTAGES. EXACTLY. RIGHT OF THE SO, IT'S SUFFERING THAT THROUGH FAITH THAT PREVENTS THAT VERY ATTITUDE FROM HAPPENING. THE SAME THING WITH THE GUY WITH THE GOLDEN APPLE HE GETS UP THERE AND HE SAYS, WHAT DO YOU MEAN EVERYBODY CAN HAVE A GOLDEN APPLE? ANY TIME. YOU KNOW WHAT ONE OF THESE WOULD BE WORTH IN HELL? I MEAN, THESE THINGS ARE WHERE I WOULD GET SO MANY ADVANTAGES. I MEAN, I WOULD HAVE A MUCH BETTER HOUSE AN JOE AND HARRY IN HELL. AND THERE'S THE EGO. SO, THE GUY CHOOSES TO GO TO HELL, BACK TO HELL BECAUSE HE THINKS IT'S GOING TO MAKE HIM HAPPY. AND THE BOOK IS BRILLIANT, BY THE WAY, IF YOU HAVEN'T READ, THE GREAT DIVORCE. AND THE MAIN THING TO KEEP IN MIND, NO, I WOULD SAY, ONCE JESUS DOES THIS. ONCE HE TELLS US WHAT WE'RE DESTINED FOR, TELLS US THAT LOVE IS ETERNAL AND LOVE CAN NEVER BE OVERCOME BY DEATH BECAUSE LIFE IS ETERNAL IN LOVE, BY THE TIME, IF WE FIGURE THAT OUT, THEN WE'LL KNOW HOW IMPORTANT SUFFERING IS. NOT JUST THINKING THAT LOVE IS THE HIGHEST AND MOST POSITIVE OF ALL OF THE VIRTUES, BUT TO BE ABLE TO PRACTICE IT A LITTLE. AND I'M NOT SAYING EVERYBODY IS PERFECT IN LOVE. NOBODY IS PERFECT IN LOVE WHEN THEY DIE. ONLY JESUS WAS PERFECT IN LOVE WHEN HE DIED. AND EVERYBODY ELSE, LIKE I'M GOING TO FALL WAY SHORT. BUT WHAT I AM SAYING, WE DON'T HAVE TO BE PERFECT IN LOVE BECAUSE GOD FORGIVES US FOR OUR SINS AND HE BRINGS US UP THERE. BUT WE GOT TO WANT TO BE PERFECTED IN LOVE. AND THAT'S A TRANSFORMATION OF DESIRE. I GOT TO WANT LOVE MORE THAN I WANT EGO COMPARATIVE ADVANTAGE. I'VE GOT TO WANT LOVE -- AND FAITH -- MORE THAN I JUST WANT THE GRATIFICATION OF WHATEVER KINDS OF PASSIONS AND GREED AND ENVIES I'VE GOT. RIGHT? I GOT TO WANT LOVE MORE. AND THAT'S ALL WE NEED TO DO IS GET TO THE POINT WHERE WE'RE SAYING, YOU KNOW, I REALLY WANT LOVE AND FAITH MORE THAN I WANT EGO COMPARATIVE ADVANTAGE. GOD CAN TAKE CARE OF THE REST. BUT HOW IMPORTANT SUFFERING AND FAITH HAVE BEEN FOR ME JUST TO GET ME TO THAT LITTLE POINT WHERE I CAN SAY, YOU KNOW, I REALLY WANT FAITH AND LOVE MORE THAN I WANT ALL THESE OTHER THINGS. >> Doug: IS THAT WHY SO OFTEN WHEN YOU HEAR CONVERSION STORIES WITH PEOPLE, AFTER THEY HAVE QUOTE, UNQUOTE, HIT BOTTOM, THAT THAT OCCURS? >> Father: ABSOLUTELY. I JUST THINK THAT IS SO TRUE. LOOK AT THE LIFE OF ST. AUGUSTINE. LOOK AT THE LIFE OF ST. IGNATIUS OF LOYOLA. HECK, IT TOOK HIM A CANNONBALL IN THE LEG. AND ST. PAUL. STRUCK OFF THE HORSE, BLINDED, I MEAN, REALLY GETTING THE FEAR GOING THERE. AND SO FORTH, SO ON. AND THE BLINDNESS CONTINUES. IN MY VIEW, THROUGHOUT HIS LIFE WITH THE THORN IN THE FLESH. I MEAN, LOOK AT SO MANY OF THE SAINTS WHO NEVER WOULD HAVE GOTTEN OFF THE GROUND, PROVERBIAL GROUNDED IT NOT BEEN FOR SUFFERING. I MEAN, EVEN WITH ST. FRANCIS OF ASSISI. YES, HE DID HAVE A NATURAL COMPASSION FOR BEGGARS AND THOSE WHO WERE LESS FORTUNATE. HE DIDN'T HAVE TO BE KNOCKED INTO IT. MAYBE LIKE ST. IGNATIUS OF LOYOLA HAD TO BE. BUT FACE THE FACTS. FULLY 1/3 OF THE SAINTS HAD TO HAVE THE OLD THORN IN THE FLESH TO REALLY GET THEM GOING. AND MAYBE MORE THAN THAT. WE JUST DON'T KNOW BECAUSE THE HAGIOGRAPHIES DON'T GO INTO IT IN DEPTH. BUT I'M WILLING TO LOOK IF YOU GO BACK AND YOU THINK, ABOUT THE SAINT, WHERE IN THE WORLD DID THEY GET THAT. WHERE IN THE WORLD DO THEY DO THAT. MAYBE JUST SOMEHOW INSTRUMENTAL IS. AND NOT JUST WITH ST. THERESE OF LISEAUX AND MOTHER TERESA'S CALCUTTA WHOSE FEAST WE CELEBRATED YESTERDAY. YOU CAN LOOK RIGHT THERE, THE ROLE THERE, JUST AMAZING DEVELOPMENTS THAT SUFFERING CAN BRING EVEN TO A PERSON WHO IS ALREADY SAINTLY, LIKE ST. PAUL OR ST. IGNATIUS. >> AND THE IDEA AS YOU SAY, INTERIOR OR EXTERIOR AS YOU SAY, AND SOME OF THE WORDS THAT POP UP IN THE CHAPTER IS COMPASSION, EMPATHY AS WELL. AND LET ME JUST ASK YOU IN THESE CLOSING MINUTES, JUST GET STARTED HERE. WHO IS THOMAS COLE AND WHY DID YOU DECIDE TO USE THE USE OF HIS PAINTINGS TO OPEN THIS CHAPTER? >> Father: YEAH. HE PAINTED A SERIES OF SORT OF A MAN WHO IS GOING THROUGH THE STAGES OF LIFE'S WAY. THERE'S THIS ONE SCENE WHERE HE HE'S JUST A PEABODY, BEING TAKEN CARE OF AND CRADLED BY THE ANGEL. AND YOU GOT TO LOOK IN THE POSITION OF THE ANGEL ALL THROUGHOUT THE THING BECAUSE, RIGHT, YOU GET TO THE SECOND PAINTING AND YOU KNOW, HE'S ALMOST WAVING AT THE ANGEL, GRACE IS SO CLEAR, SO FORTH AND SO ON. LIFE IS IN HIS HAND, THE WORLD IS HIS OYSTER AS HE IS GOING DOWN THE RIVER. AND THEN ALL OF A SUDDEN, YOU NOTICE THAT AS HIS RESPONSIBILITIES INCREASE, ALL THE FOLIAGE ON EACH SIDE OF THE RIVER IS NO LONGER THAT BEAUTIFUL GRASS, TREES AND SUCH. IT'S VERY SPINDLY AND SO FORTH AND SO ON. AND THE GUY IS IN THE REAL RAPIDS, JUST A TORRENT OF THINGS. AND WHERE IS THE ANGEL? THE ANGEL IS ABOVE HIM TAKING CARE OF HIM. HE CAN'T SEE THE ANGEL. HE'S JUST RIDING ON FAITH. HE'S PRACTICALLY, NOT EVEN HOLDING THE RUDDER IN THAT THING BECAUSE OF COURSE, THE TORRENT IS SO BAD. HE DOESN'T HAVE CONTROL. BUT THE ANGEL IS TAKING CARE OF THE GUIDING. THEN, FINALLY AT THE END, RIGHT, HE GETS THROUGH ALL THE RAPIDS, TORRENTS AND EVERYTHING ELSE, JUST FLOATING TOWARD HEAVEN AND THERE'S THE ANGEL JUST POINTING THE WAY AND BECKONING HIM FORWARD TO HIS END. I JUST THOUGHT, THAT'S LIFE. THOMAS COLE, HE HAS IT RIGHT DOWN THERE. NONE OF US IS GOING TO BE ABLE TO AVOID SUFFERING. WE'RE ALL GOING TO GO INTO THAT THIRD PAINTING. AND I HAVE THAT THIRD PAINTING IN MY ROOM. >> WELL, THE THIRD PAINTING IS THE ONE THAT HITS YOU THE MOST. BECAUSE THE GUARDIAN ANGEL IS PRESENT AND WATCHING THE MAN. BUT THE MAN CANNOT SEE HIM BECAUSE, AND HE'S LOST THE TILLER. SO, HE'S LOST A CERTAIN AMOUNT OF HIS OWN AUTONOMY AND CONTROL. AND HE CAN'T SEE THE ANGEL, HE'S THERE, BUT HE'S ABOVE HIM AND HE CAN'T SEE HIM. >> Father: RIGHT. JUST RIDING ON TRUST TO GET THROUGH THESE TORRENTS. BUT HE DOESN'T GIVE UP. AND THAT'S THE MAIN THING. DON'T GIVE UP. GOD IS THERE AND THE ANGEL REPRESENTING THE HOLY SPIRIT, SUPERNATURAL GOD AND THE ANGELS AND THE WHOLE BIT. BUT THE GUARDIAN ANGEL IS ABSOLUTELY THERE. HE'S ALMOST AS IT WERE, GUIDING THE RAFT EVEN THOUGH HE'S ABOVE AND CAN'T SEE, THE MAN CAN'T SEE HIM. BUT FINALLY TOWARD THE END OF HIS LIFE, HE SEES HIM AGAIN. AND THE ANGEL IS POINTING THE WAY TO SALVATION. AND ALL OF THOSE TORRENTS ARE GOING TO BE VERY USEFUL. ALL OF THAT MAN'S PAST EXPERIENCE IS GOING TO BE VERY USEFUL FOR GETTING HIM FINALLY TO THE GOAL FOR WHICH HE'S BEEN ON THE RIVER. SO, IT'S KIND OF INTERESTING. I JUST LOVE THE BOOK BECAUSE SUFFERING IS INESCAPABLE. BUT IT HAS ITS PURPOSE. AND GOD IS WITH US. AND GOD IS NOT JUST US USING THE OPPORTUNITY OF SUFFERING. GOD IS LEVERAGING THIS FOR OUR BENEFIT. THE SUFFERING IS FOR OUR BENEFIT. AND THAT'S THE ANGEL FLOATING ABOVE THE GUY THERE. >> Doug: AND IT'S INTERESTING TOO BECAUSE AS WE WRAP OUT HERE. THERE WERE FOUR PAINTINGS AND YOU HAVE FOUR BOOKS OF COURSE, THAT WE'RE PROMOTING AS WELL. AND WE'RE USING THE ONE FROM THE LIFE SHINES ON IN THE DARKNESS. AND WE'RE INTO CHAPTER 7. WE'RE GOING TO HAVE MUCH MORE AHEAD AS WE GO WITH THAT, FATHER. WE'LL SEE YOU NEXT WEEK WHEN WE ONCE AGAIN TURN TO YOU FOR WISDOM ON THE SUBJECT OF SUFFERING. THANK YOU SO MUCH. FATHER SPITZER, OUT THERE IN THE WEST COAST STUDIOS. AND FOR ALL OF US, DON'T FORGET, MOTHER ANGELICA HAS A NEW BECOME BASED ON THE MINI-BOOKS JUST OUT FROM THE EWTN PUBLISHING, THE BEST ONE I THINK AS WELL, MOTHER ANGELICA ON PRAYER AND LIVING FOR THE KINGDOM. IT'S ALL ABOUT LIVING IN THE PRESENT MOMENT. VERY IMPORTANT PART OF MOTHER'S SPIRITUALITY AND DON'T FORGET, POPE FRANCIS IN COLUMBIA, EWTN COVERING IT FROM THE BEGINNING TO THE END SEPTEMBER 7 THROUGH THE TENTH OF SEPTEMBER. AND DON'T FORGET OUR EWTN FAMILY CELEBRATION TAKING PLACE, SEPTEMBER 9, 10, IF YOU ARE IN WORCESTER, MASSACHUSETTS, OR IN THE LOCALE THERE, YOU DON'T NEED A TICKET EITHER. SO, NEXT TIME AS WE CONTINUE IN "FR. SPITZER'S UNIVERSE", I'M DOUG KECK. ♪
