♪ HELLO AND WELCOME TO "FR. SPITZER'S UNIVERSE" WHERE NO MAN HAS GONE BEFORE. I'M DOUG KECK YOUR HOST COMING TO YOU, LIVE, FROM OUR EWTN STUDIOS IN IRONDALE, ALABAMA WHERE IT ALL BEGAN FOUNDED BY MOTHER ANGELICA BACK IN 1981 MOTHER ANGELICA WAY IS WHERE WE'RE AT. AND TODAY'S TOPIC, PART 2 OF CHAPTER 7, FROM FATHER'S BOOK, THE LIGHT SHINES ON IN THE DARKNESS, TRANSFORMING SUFFERING THROUGH FAITH. AND WE'RE TALKING ABOUT THE INTERIOR AND EXTERIOR OPPORTUNITIES FOR SUFFERING. AND ISN'T IT GREAT TO KNOW AS CATHOLICS WE GET OPPORTUNITIES TO SUFFER! WE'LL TALK ABOUT THAT. AND DON'T FORGET, MOTHER ANGELICA'S BOOK, ON PRAYER AND LIVING FOR THE KINGDOM, JUST PUBLISHED BY EWTN, WE WERE AT THE FAMILY CELEBRATION OVER THE WEEKEND IN WORCESTER, MASSACHUSETTS, THIS WAS FLYING OFF THE SHELF. AND IT'S A REALLY WONDERFUL BOOK. THE LATEST IN THE SERIES OF MOTHER'S MINI-BOOKS. ALSO, MARCH 2, THE MIRACLE OF THE SUN CONTINUING IN SEPTEMBER. HERE WE ARE IN THE MIDDLE OF THE MONTH AND THE FIFTH APPARITION OF OUR LADY OF FATIMA, IF YOU WATCH OUR SHOW LIVE, 6:30 EASTERN TIME. AND THEN ON SATURDAY SEPTEMBER 16 AT 2:00 PM EASTERN TIME. CHECK THAT OUT. OUR LADY OF FATIMA, ALL SUMMER LONG. AND ONE MORE MONTH TO GO. SO, ONE MORE THING TO MENTION, THE BEATIFICATION OF THE SERVANT OF GOD, FATHER ROTHER COMING UP ON SATURDAY, SEPTEMBER 23, 11:00 AM, EASTERN TIME, FROM THE COX CONVENTION CENTER IN OKLAHOMA CITY. AND NOW, LET'S TURN OUR FOCUS TO THE WEST COAST, FATHER SPITZER LIVE ON THE CAMPUS IN CHRIST CATHEDRAL IN LOS ANGELES, ORANGE COUNTY. AND OF COURSE, YOU CAN GET IN TOUCH WITH US ON FACEBOOK, TWITTER, AND DON'T FORGET ABOUT THE magiscenter.com FOR ALL THINGS FATHER SPITZER. AND DON'T FORGET ABOUT HIS BOOKS AS WELL. WE'RE GOING TO TALK ABOUT THE ONE HERE. BUT AS YOU SEE ON THE SCREEN, WE'LL PUT UP THE FOUR, QUAD SET OF BOOKS THAT ALL HAVE TO DO WITH THESE PARTICULAR TOPICS THAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT EACH FEATURED ON BOOK MARK IN THE PAST. CERTAINLY WORTH CHECKING OUT AT EWTN RELIGIOUS CATALOGUE. WELCOME, FATHER SPITZER, GOOD TO SEE YOU AGAIN. >> Father: GREAT TO SEE YOU, DOUG. >> Doug: AND WE'VE BEEN PRAYING SINCE LAST WEEK AND GOING FORWARD FOR ALL OF THE PEOPLE, FROM HOUSTON, A COUPLE WEEKS AGO AND THE PEOPLE SUFFERING, CERTAINLY ELSEWHERE, IN THE FLORIDA KEYS AND THE PEOPLE IN THE CARIBBEAN WHO REALLY TOOK IT ON THE CHIN WITH HURRICANE IRMA AND WE'LL KEEP THEM IN OUR PRAYERS. WE'RE TALKING ABOUT SUFFERING. THAT'S WHAT WE WERE TALKING ABOUT, AS WE MOVE AHEAD IN YOUR BOOK HERE. WE HAVE MANY QUESTIONS PEOPLE HAVE SENT TO US THAT WE WANT TO GET TO. LET'S GET TO THAT RIGHT AWAY, TO KICK THINGS THINGS OFF. NOW, DEER FATHER SPITZER, IS NOT WANTING TO BE MISTREATED A MANIFESTATION OF PRIDE? IF SO, AM I SUPPOSED TO TURN THE OTHER CHEEK, SO TO SAY, AND TAKE THE MISTREATMENT? OR AM I JUSTIFIED IN TRYING TO PROTECT MYSELF IN THIS SITUATION? AM I DESTROYING GOD'S FREEDOM BY NOT ALLOWING MYSELF TO BE TAKEN ADVANTAGE OF? IN CHRIST, ALICE AGAIN, IN A SENSE, A KIND OF SUFFERING. BUT OF COURSE, THERE'S A SUBJECTIVE ASPECT TO THAT AS WELL. WHAT DO YOU THINK? >> Father: YES, ALICE, YOU ALWAYS HAVE A RIGHT TO PROTECT YOURSELF FROM MISTREATMENT. THE LORD DOESN'T ASK US TO ALLOW OURSELVES TO KEEP GETTING HIT. WHEN HE'S SAYING, TURN THE OTHER CHEEK, RIGHT, WHAT HE'S TRYING TO SAY IS, YOU KNOW, WE TRY NOT TO RESIST OR GET OURSELVES ANGRY ABOUT SOMEBODY'S ABUSE. HIS ANGLE IS TOWARD FORGIVENESS. BUT HE CERTAINLY IS NOT SAYING JUST LET YOURSELF BE HIT AGAIN AND AGAIN. EVERY SINGLE PERSON, EVERY SINGLE CHRISTIAN AS THE CHURCH TEACHES HAS THE RIGHT TO PROTECT THEMSELVES. WE HAVE A VERY IMPORTANT KIND OF SERIES OF DECREES IN OUR OWN, OUR ABILITY TO DEFEND OURSELVES, A RIGHT TO PROTECT AND DEFEND OURSELVES. ACTUALLY, THE NEED IN TAKING CARE OF OUR BODIES AND TAKING GOOD CUSTODY OVER OUR BODIES. THE NEED TO PROTECT OURSELVES AND TO PREVENT PREVENTIBLE ABUSES. SOMETIMES, OF COURSE, YOU SAY, WELL, HOW FAR CAN I GO. WELL, OBVIOUSLY, WE WANT TO TAKE THE LEAST HARMFUL MEASURE TO PROTECT OURSELVES THAT WE CAN. BUT ALSO, WE ARE ALLOWED, IN THE CATHOLIC MORAL TEACHING TO TAKE MEASURES THAT WOULD EVEN BE HARMFUL TO ANOTHER WHICH IS, FOR EXAMPLE, IN OUR JUST WORD THEORY. WHICH SAYS, YES, YOU HAVE A RIGHT TO PROTECT YOURSELF IN THAT CASE AND PROTECT THE PERSON THAT'S YOUR BUDDY, IN A TRENCH OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT. SO, THE KEY THING, KIND THE LEAST HARMFUL WAYS THAT YOU CAN, YOU KNOW, TO PROTECT YOURSELF AND TRY TO BUILD THOSE MEASURES INTO YOUR LIFE. SOMETIMES THIS MAY MEAN TAKING A LEGAL ACTION AGAINST SOMEONE. I DON'T KNOW WHAT KIND OF MISTREATMENT YOU ARE ENDURING. BUT THE LAW DOES PROVIDE MANY REMEDIES FOR THOSE WHO ARE BEING MISTREATED ON A REGULAR BASIS. IF THAT'S YOU, IF THAT'S HAPPENING TO YOU, YOU MAY WANT TO SEEK A LEGAL REMEDY TO PREVENT TRULY HARMFUL MISTREATMENT FROM BEING REPEATED AGAIN AND AGAIN. NO CHRISTIAN OR CATHOLIC HAS TO ENDURE THAT KIND OF ABUSE. SEE IF YOU CAN FIND THE LEAST HARMFUL METHOD OF DOING THIS. IT'S CERTAINLY NOT A MANIFESTATION OF PRIDE TO DO SO. WHAT YOU ARE DOING IS EXERCISING YOUR RIGHT OF CUSTODY AND PROTECTION OVER YOUR OWN BODY AND YOUR OWN DOMAIN. >> Doug: RIGHT. OTHERWISE, WE END UP WITH THE ACCUSATION WE'RE MASOCHISTS, YOU ARE JUST SUPPOSED TO SIT THERE AND ENJOY BEING TAKEN ADVANTAGE OF OR A DOORMAT WHICH IS NOT THE CASE AT ALL. >> Father: THAT'S RIGHT. RIGHT. EXACTLY. AND OF COURSE, JESUS, WHEN HE WENT TO THE CROSS AND ACCEPTED THOSE ABUSES, WHEN HE CLEARLY DIDN'T HAVE TO, HE DID SO BECAUSE HE WANTED TO OFFER HIMSELF UP AS A SELF-SACRIFICE, AN UNCONDITIONAL ACT OF LOVE FOR THE WORLD. >> Doug: CERTAINLY. AND WE'RE TALKING ABOUT FATIMA TONIGHT, THE SHOW IS ON TONIGHT AND AS IT WRAPS UP NEXT MONTH FOR THE 100TH ANNIVERSARY. NOW, HERE'S THE NEXT EMAIL. OUR LORD SAID TO SISTER LUCIA OF FATIMA, "THE SACRIFICE REQUIRED FOR EVERY PERSON IS THE FULFILLMENT OF HIS DUTIES IN LIFE AND THE OBSERVANCE OF MY LAW. THIS IS THE PENANCE THAT I NOW SEEK AND REQUIRE." COULD YOU EXPAND ON WHAT OUR LORD IS ASKING? IS PENANCE A FORM OF SELF-IMPOSED SUFFERING? >> Father: WELL, PENANCE CAN BE A FORM OF SELF-IMPOSED SUFFERING. AGAIN, WHEN WE DO PENANCE, YOU HAVE TO REMEMBER THREE THINGS. I KNOW I HATE TO KEEP GIVING ALL THESE CONDITIONS ALL THE TIME. BUT IT'S VERY IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER THESE THINGS. THE FIRST THING THAT WE WANT TO MAKE SURE OF, IF YOU DO SOME FORM OF PENANCE WHICH MAY INCLUDING, OKAY, LIKE, WE KNOW THAT THE SAINTS WOULD WEAR A HAIR SHIRT OR PUT ROCKS IN THEIR SHOES OR SOMETHING PAINFUL, FAST ON MANY DAYS ON END. BUT THE FIRST THING THAT YOU HAVE TO MAKE SURE OF IS THAT THERE'S GOING TO BE AN INCREASE IN THE TRUST OF GOD, INCREASE IN HOPE, AND INCREASE IN LOVE. SO, THOSE THREE IMPORTANT THEOLOGICAL VIRTUES THAT COME FROM THAT PENANCE. REMEMBER, PENANCE IS NOT MORE IMPORTANT THAN FAITH, HOPE, AND LOVE. THOSE ARE THE HIGHEST VIRTUES AND THE HIGHEST AMONG THEM IS LOVE. SO, YOUR FIRST OBJECTIVE IS, YOU GOT TO SEE, IS THIS PENANCE DOING ME SOME GOOD. AFTER YOU HAVE DONE PENANCE FOR A WHILE. YOU HAVE TO ASK YOURSELF THE QUESTION. HEY, IS MY TRUST IN GOD INCREASING OR AS A MATTER OF FACT, AM I BEGINNING TO LOSE MY TRUST IN GOD. IS MY HOPE AND SALVATION INCREASING? OR AM I TENDING TO LOSE HOPE AND JUST LOSE EVEN A GRIP ON MY DESIRE FOR RELIGIOUS CONVERSION? AM I KIND OF LOSING IT AND LOSING MY HOPE IN THE PROCESS. AND FINALLY, YOU GOT TO MAKE SURE THAT PENANCE DOESN'T STAND IN THE WAY OF LOVE. YOU DON'T WANT TO GET REALLY IRRITATED AND REALLY IMPATIENT, THESE DARN ROCKS IN MY SHOE ARE REALLY BOTHERING ME AND NOW I'M REALLY TICKED OFF AT EVERYBODY AROUND ME. >> Doug: RIGHT, YOU ARE A MISERABLE PERSON TO BE AROUND. >> Father: RIGHT, MISERABLE PERSON TO BE AROUND THAT I AM. SO, THAT'S NOT GOING TO DO US ANY GOOD. AND ST. IGNATIUS OF LOYOLA HAD SOME VERY GOOD RULES ABOUT, YOU KNOW, DOING THAT, WITH RESPECT TO PENANCE AND HE HAD TO ENDURE SOME PRETTY RAUCOUS THINGS. I MEAN, HE HAD ACTUALLY AT ONE POINT, WHICH SOME BROTHERS IN PORTUGAL WERE ACTUALLY KIND OF LEAVING THE SCHOOL, LEAVING THE RELIGIOUS ORDER, AND ST. IGNATIUS IS GOING, WHAT IN THE WORLD IS GOING ON OVER THERE. WELL, THE PENANCES HAD JUST GOTTEN SO TERRIBLY ONEROUS THAT THESE PEOPLE COULDN'T TAKE IT ANY LONGER! AND THEY WERE LOSING FAITH, HOPE AND LOVE AND THEIR FAITH IN GOD. TRUST AND ABILITY TO KEEP ENOUGH PSYCHIC ENERGY TO MAKE THEMSELVES A GOOD LOVING PEOPLE. SO, THEY JUST DECIDED TO LEAVE THE ORDER AND GET OUT OF THE PENANCES. AND IGNATIUS SENDS AN EMISSARY OVER THERE SAYING, STOP THE PENANCES! OH MY GOSH. LET'S DO A REVIEW OF THIS IN A HURRY. YOU HAVE TO REMEMBER THAT PRIORITIZATION. AND THE SECOND THING, WITH THE RESPECT TO PENANCES IS TO REMEMBER THAT NO PENANCE SHOULD GET TO THE POINT WHERE IT BECOMES ABUSIVE TO THE SELF. SO YOU DON'T WANT SOMETHING THAT'S GOING TO REALLY DO ANY HARM, NOT JUST TO THE SPIRITUAL LIFE, BUT ALSO ANY HARM TO YOU PSYCHOLOGICALLY OR ANY HARM TO YOU BODILY. SO, IT HAS TO BE A KIND OF SUFFERING THAT IS NOT GOING TO DO INJURY TO YOU, RIGHT? NOBODY WANTS TO BECOME MASOCHISTIC ABOUT A PENANCE. BUT YES, PENANCE HAS AN ELEMENT OF SUFFERING AND YOU HAVE TO BE SURE YOU HAVE CONSTRAINTS, NOT PERMANENT OR EVEN SIGNIFICANT BODILY DAMAGE, NO PSYCHOLOGICAL DAMAGE AND NO DAMAGE TO YOUR SPIRITUAL LIFE WITH PENANCES AND LEAD TO GO A GREATER TRUST IN LOVE HOPE AND TRUST. AND IF YOU DO THAT, PENANCE IS A GOOD PENANCE. AND IF YOU DON'T DO THAT, IF YOU ARE NOT OBSERVING THOSE CONDITIONS, I WOULD MODIFY THE PENANCE OR DROP IT ALL TOGETHER. IT IS NOT AS IMPORTANT AS YOUR FAITH, PSYCHOLOGICAL HEALTH AND YOUR BODY. >> Doug: WOULD YOU SAY IT'S TRUE THAT JUST BECAUSE ALL HUMAN BEINGS ARE DIFFERENT, ET CETERA, AND DIFFERENT SPIRITUAL LOCATIONS AND JUST THAT, WHAT WORKS FOR ONE PERSON, PUT AGO PEBBLE IN THEIR SHOE, MAY BE SOMETHING POSITIVE FOR ONE AND TOTAL NEGATIVE FOR SOMEBODY ELSE? >> Father: ABSOLUTELY. ST. IGNATIUS SAYS, YOU JUST HAVE TO TALK TO YOUR SPIRITUAL DIRECTOR ABOUT IT BECAUSE, RIGHT, AS YOU PUT IT. SOME PEOPLE, A HAIR SHIRT IS GOING TO LEAD THEM TO GOD. FOR SOME PEOPLE, IT WOULD DRIVE THEM STARK, RAVING MAD AFTER A DAY. SO, YOU HAVE TO BE IN THE RIGHT PLACE, THE RIGHT FRAME OF MIND. THE RIGHT LEVEL OF YOUR SPIRITUAL LIFE AND THE RIGHT KIND OF PSYCHOLOGICAL CONDITION TO DO IT. IF YOU DON'T HAVE THOSE THINGS IN PLACE, PLEASE DON'T DO IT. REMEMBER, FAITH HOPE AND LOVE IS WHERE WE'RE TRYING TO GET. PENANCE IS A MEANS TO THE GOALS. BUT IT IS NOT AN END IN ITSELF. SO, IF YOU CAN REMEMBER THAT, YOU ARE IN GOOD SHAPE. >> Doug: OKAY. VERY GOOD. LET'S MOVE AHEAD. WE HAVE ANOTHER QUESTION, VIA EMAIL. FATHER, WHEN I FOR GIVE SOMEONE FOR A WRONG, AND I WANT THEM TO LEARN NOT TO CONTINUE BAD BEHAVIOR, WILL MY FORGIVING THEM ACCELERATE GOD'S TEACHING NOT BEHAVE BADLY TOWARD ME? HOW DOES FORGIVENESS WORK ESPECIALLY WHEN WE ARE PRAYING FOR SOMEONE TO BECOME MORE LIKE GOD? THANKS, KAREN. >> Father: YEAH. THERE'S TWO DIFFERENT COMPONENTS IN IT. FIRST THING, YES. FORGIVENESS HELPS HUGELY! I KNOW IT SEEMS COUNTER INTUITIVE SOMETIMES BECAUSE YOU THINK IF YOU FORGIVE SOMEBODY FROM THE HEART, THEN THEY ARE JUST GOING TO RUN RIGHT OVER YOU AGAIN THE NEXT TIME. BUT YOU CAN ACTUALLY FORGIVE SOMEONE FROM THE HEART. WHAT'S FORGIVENESS MEAN? IT MEANS A LETTING GO. A JUST CLAIM YOU HAVE AND LETTING THAT, LEADS TO FORGETTING ABOUT IT. SO YOU DON'T WANT TO SEEK VENGEANCE. YOU DON'T WANT TO SEEK AN EYE FOR AN EYE OR A TOOTH FOR A TOOTH. SO, THE KEY THING THAT YOU ARE TRYING TO GET TO IS A POINT WHERE YOU ALLOW THE OTHER PERSON TO BEGIN ANEW, WHERE YOU ARE NOT JUST HOLDING THEM TO A STANDARD THAT THEY CAN'T POSSIBLY MEET AND THE SORT OF DAMOCLES IS OVER THEIR HEADS. BUT TO ALLOW FORGIVENESS, JUST AS THE LORD FORGIVES US, TO ALLOW OUR FORGIVENESS OF THEM TO LET THEM START OVER AGAIN. NOW, THAT'S THE KEY THING. WE JUST TALKED ABOUT, DOES FORGIVENESS PRECLUDE TAKING REMEDIES TO PROTECT YOURSELF? NO, IT DOESN'T. DOES FORGIVENESS MEAN INSTANTANEOUSLY FORGETTING? NO, IT DOESN'T. BECAUSE, LET'S FACE FACTS. FORGETTING TAKES A LOT LONGER. IF SOMEBODY HAS REALLY INSULTED YOU IN PUBLIC OR DONE YOU A TERRIBLE, UNJUSTIFIED, AND IT'S SEARED IN YOUR MIND, THE MEMORY IS SITTING THERE. IT TAKES A LOT LONGER TO FORGET THAN TO FORGIVE. AND THE SPONTANEOUS PRAYER I USE FOR MYSELF TO HELP MOVE THE PROCESS ALONG, I JUST KEEP PRAYING, LORD, YOU ARE THE JUST JUDGE. YOU TAKE CARE OF IT. LORD, YOU ARE THE JUST JUDGE. HELP ME TO LET GO OF THIS. YOU TAKE CARE OF IT. TAKE IT. I WANT TO LET GO OF THIS. AND IF YOU KEEP PRAYING THAT. IT'S AMAZING, YOU DO LET GO EVENTUALLY. AND GOD'S GRACE THROUGH YOU. PRAYING FOR YOUR ENEMIES WORKS. I KNOW AGAIN YOU THINK SOMETIMES, WELL, IF I PRAYED SILENTLY FOR MY ENEMIES, HOW DOES HE KNOW THAT I'M PRAYING FOR THEM. BELIEVE ME! HE MAY NEVER KNOW YOU PRAYED FOR HIM UNTIL HE GETS TO THE DAY OF HIS JUDGMENT. BUT FOR ALL INTENSIVE PURPOSES IN THE MEANTIME, RIGHT, GOD'S GRACES ARE ALREADY WORKING IN HIM. COUNTLESS HAVE BEEN THE NUMBER OF TIMES WHEN I HAVE PRAYED FOR A PERSON WHO HAS JUST BEEN REALLY BUSTING MY CHOPS, RIGHT. AND I JUST KEEP THINKING, OH MY GOSH, YOU KNOW, I DON'T KNOW IF I CAN TAKE THIS ANYMORE. AND I KEEP PRAYING FOR THAT PERSON. AND THEN ALL OF A SUDDEN, ONE DAY, OUT OF THE BLUE, THEY ARE PERFECTLY CIVIL AND FRIENDLY. EVEN PEOPLE WHO ARE TERRIBLY ANTI-CLERICAL WHO I HAVE DEALT WITH IN THE EDUCATIONAL SECTOR AND SO FORTH AND SO ON. AND THEY TOO, AFTER A WHILE OF BEING VERBAL WOULD GIVE UP SOME OF THEIR PREJUDICES AND ABSOLUTELY AMAZED ME. IT WAS ONE OF THE GREAT PROFESSION OF THE HOLY SPIRIT IN MY LIFE. PRAYING FOR PEOPLE WHO ARE JUST MEAN-SPIRITED, PREJUDICIAL, ET CETERA. YOU CAN REALLY BRING THEM AROUND. >> Doug: I HAVE TO TELL YOU, I APPRECIATE YOU PRAYING FOR ME ALL THIS TIME OVERCOMING MY SHORTCOMINGS. I DIDN'T KNOW YOU WERE GOING TO ANNOUNCE IT ON NATIONAL TELEVISION, BUT THAT'S OKAY. >> Father: [LAUGHTER] DOUG! I TELL YOU, THERE'S NO ONE THAT I WOULD RATHER ASSOCIATE WITH THAN YOU. BUT I PRAY FOR YOU FOR OTHER REASONS. >> Doug: THAT'S RIGHT. >> Father: BUT YOU NEVER BUSTED MY CHOPS ONCE. >> Doug: BUT I TELL YOU, I THINK OF, I FEEL GOOD BECAUSE OF ST. PAUL'S, ALEXANDER THE COPPERSMITH HAS DONE ME WRONG. SO, YOU KNOW. LET ME ASK YOU A QUESTION WITH THAT TOO. WHAT'S IT LIKE IF YOU ARE IN A SITUATION WITH SOMEONE, SAY, IN A SENSE, YOU DECIDE YOU ARE GOING TO FORGIVE THEM FOR WHAT THEY HAVE DONE AND THEY DON'T AGREE THEY NEED TO BE FORGIVEN BECAUSE THEY DON'T THINK THEY DID ANYTHING WRONG. >> Father: WELL, AGAIN, I JUST PRAY FOR THOSE PEOPLE. BECAUSE YOU KNOW, IT'S GOING TO TAKE FOREVER AND A YEAR TO BRING THEM AROUND TO YOUR POINT OF VIEW. IF THEY DON'T HAVE THE SENSITIVITY TO RECOGNIZE THAT THEY HAVE REALLY DONE YOU HARM, THEY ARE PROBABLY VERY MUCH MIRED IN WHAT I CALL LEVEL ONE OR LEVEL TWO HAPPINESS. IN OTHER WORDS, THEY ARE IN SUCH AN EGO COMPARATIVE SORT OF MENTALITY, THAT'S THEIR LIFE'S PURPOSE, THEIR VIEW OF SUCCESS IN LIFE AND HAPPINESS IS TO HAVE THAT DOMINANT VIEWPOINT. THEN THERE'S WHAT YOU CALL BORDERLINE NARCISSISTIC. AND A NARCISSISTIC PERSONALITY TO CONVINCE THEM THAT THEY HARMED YOU, THEY HAVE NO INTEREST IN KNOWING THEY HARMED YOU. AND MANY THE TIME WHEN SOMEBODY SAID, THAT REALLY HURT. AND I SAY, OH, YIKES, I DIDN'T REALIZE I WAS EVEN OVER THERE, IN THAT DEPARTMENT. AND I ASK FOR FORGIVENESS RIGHT AWAY. BECAUSE MY MIND WASN'T THERE. BUT WITH THE NARCISSIST, A NARCISSIST DOESN'T HAVE AN INTEREST IN KNOWING SHE OR HE IS HARMING YOU. IN FACT, IT BOTHERS THEM THAT YOU HAVE TAKEN OFFENSE AT THEIR UNJUSTIFIED OFFENSE. SO, IT WOULD TAKE YOU FOREVER TO GET THEM OUT OF THAT POINT OF VIEW. YOUR BEST BET WITH THE NARCISSIST, PRAY FOR THEM. PRAY THAT GOD CAN REACH THEM. SOMETIMES, YOU KNOW, I MEAN, GOD DOES HAVE TO USE SUFFERING IN THEIR OWN LIVES TO GET TO THEM BECAUSE NOTHING ELSE WILL WORK. THEY ACTUALLY NEED SOMETHING TO PULL THEM OUT OF THE DARKNESS OF THEIR COMPLETE SELF OBSESSION. AND THE MYTH OF NARCISSISTS IS, IT HAS REAL VALIDITY. A NARCISSIST CAN BE SO OBSESSED WITH THEIR VISION, AS A REFLECTION IN THE WATER, THEY JUST, IN OBSESSING GROW WEARY FALL INTO THE POOL AND DROWN. THIS IS A PROBLEM. SO, GOD DOES USE HIS LITTLE INTERVENTIONS. HE TRIES TO USE GRACE AT FIRST. HE TRIES TO USE THE WISDOM OF OTHERS. HE TRIES TO USE A GENTLE KIND OF ADMONITION. AND YOU KNOW, IN MANY WAYS, YOU KNOW, SOMETIMES, HE HAS TO LET GO AND LET THAT NARCISSIST GET ABANDONED BY EVERYBODY TO THE POINT WHERE THE NARCISSIST IS GOING, WELL, WHAT DID I DO WRONG? WHY DOES EVERYBODY DISLIKE ME. WHY IS THE ONLY PERSON WHO TALKS TO ME MY MOTHER? AND THEN FINALLY, SOMETHING BEGINS TO OCCUR TO THEM, OH, WELL, MAYBE I HAVEN'T BEEN LIVING LIFE EXACTLY AS I SHOULD. >> Doug: EXACTLY. >> Father: SO, HANG IN THERE AND PRAY FOR THEM. I WOULDN'T EVEN TRY TO CONVINCE THEM. >> Doug: LET'S SQUEEZE IN ONE MORE QUESTION BEFORE WE GO TO THE BREAK AND WE'LL BE BACK TALKING ABOUT THE BOOK. OKAY. THIS ONE FITS RIGHT IN THERE. THIS IS ABOUT HUMILITY. IS HUMILITY ONE OF THOSE VIRTUES THAT WE CAN GET AND DEVELOP ONLY BY GOD'S GRACE? IS IT ALWAYS CONJOINED WITH SUFFERING? GOD BLESS YOU BOTH, MAGGIE. >> Father: I WOULD SAY THERE'S MANY DIFFERENT WAYS OF GETTING HUMILITY. NOW, IN ST. PAUL 2 CORINTHIANS 12, HE WAS GIVEN A THORN IN THE FLESH, AN ANGEL OF SATAN TO BEAT HIM TO KEEP HIM FROM GETTING PROUD. SO, HE HE'S SUFFERING PLUS FAITH AS AN EFFECTIVE WAY TO DETACH HIMSELF FROM THE DARKNESS OF PRIDE. BUT THERE ARE OTHER WAYS OF DOING THAT. I KNOW PEOPLE HONESTLY WHO HAVE READ THE LIFE OF THE SAINT OR READ, LIKE FULTON J. SHEEN'S, LIFE OF CHRIST. SOMETHING LIKE THAT. AS THEY READ THE BOOK, THEY UNDERGO A REAL TRANSFORMATION WHAT'S CALLED EDIFICATION. AND LIKE, ST. IGNATIUS OF LOYOLA, TRUE, HE WAS SUFFERING IN A HOSPITAL ROOM AND GETTING HIS LEG REPAIRED. AND WHILE THERE, HE GETS THE HAGIOGRAPHIES AND HE GETS THE LIFE OF ST. FRANCIS AND OTHER ONES. AS HE IS READING THESE THINGS, HE'S GETTING EDIFIED. AND THE IDEA OF LOOKING AT THE SAINTLY EXAMPLE AND BEING EDIFIED. YOU MAY THINK, HOW DOES THAT WORK? WELL, IT WORKS BECAUSE EVERY SINGLE ONE OF US HAS A HIGHER SELF IN US. I TALKED ABOUT THIS ABOUT TWO WEEKS AGO. WE HAVE A LOWER SELF, AND WE HAVE A NOBLE, MATURE SAINTLY SELF, A HIGHER SELF WITHIN US. EVERY SINGLE ONE OF US. SOME PEOPLE, THE HIGHER SELF IS VERY WELL INTEGRATED INTO THE PERSONALITY. SOME PEOPLE, THE LOWER SELF IS MORE DOMINANT THAN THE HIGHER SELF. BUT IN THE BEGINNING, THE HIGHER SELF CAN BE EDIFIED. IF YOU START READING THE HAGIOGRAPHY AND YOU FIND ONE THAT'S KIND OF, YOU KNOW, HAS A KIND OF SCHOLARLY APPARATUS THAT YOU WANT AND LOOKING FOR. AND YOU ARE READING THIS HAGIOGRAPHY. I MEAN, YOU CAN READ SOME KIND OF SOMETHING BY JOHN HENRY NEWMAN OR POPE BENEDICT AND EDIFY YOU TO THE MAX. AND AS YOU ARE GETTING EDIFIED, YOU ARE ALL OF A SUDDEN, THIS HIGHER SELF THAT'S INSIDE OF YOU, BEEN THERE ALL ALONG, ALL OF A SUDDEN, YOU ARE CALLED HIGHER AND HIGHER. AND THEN YOU RECOGNIZE, OH, THE KEY ATTRIBUTES OF THIS PERSON, WHAT I LOVE ABOUT HIM IS HIS HUMILITY. AND ALL OF A SUDDEN, YOU START THINKING TO YOURSELF, I WANT TO BE LIKE HIM. AND ST. IGNATIUS GOING IN THE HOSPITAL ROOM, I WANT TO BE LIKE ST. FRANCIS. AND HE WAS SO CAPTIVATED IN HIS IMAGINATION AND SO CAPTIVATED BY THE LORD IN HIS IMAGINATION AS WELL, JESUS, THAT HE BASICALLY SAYS, THIS IS IT FOR ME! I'M GOING TO IMITATE HIM. EDIFY YOURSELF BY READING THE LIFE OF CHRIST. AND SOMETIMES, IT'S EASIER TO READ SOMETIMES WITHOUT SITTING DOWN WITH THE GOSPEL AND THEY HAVE DONE A LOT OF THE HERMENEUTICAL WORK. AND POPE BENEDICT HAS A THREE-VOLUME BOOK, THREE MINI-VOLUMES ACTUALLY, THEY WOULD BE VERY EDIFYING AS WELL. AND THERE'S ANOTHER ONE PUT BACK INTO PRINT AS WELL BY A FELLOW NAMED ARCHBISHOP GOODIER. AND SOME PEOPLE PRONOUNCE IT GOODIER AND IT'S IN THREE VOLUMES. YOU KNOW, HE HAS TWO ON THE MINISTRY OF THE LORD CALLED THE LIFE AND THE LIFE OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST AND ONE VOLUME ON THE PASSION AND DEATH OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST. THOSE ARE ALL, I WOULD RECOMMEND, UNQUALIFIEDLY, IF YOU JUST WANT TO GET RIGHT INTO, WHAT'S GOING ON IN THE LORD'S MIND. IT REALLY WILL HAVE, I THINK, A SIMILAR EFFECT ON YOU AS ST. IGNATIUS', AS HE READ IT. >> Doug: AND IN ALL HUMILITY WE HAVE TAKE A BREAK. AND SOMETIMES I DO A LOT OF SUFFERING WHEN I AM READING BOOKS. NOT YOURS I'M NOT TALKING ABOUT YOURS. BUT WE'LL BE RIGHT BACK WITH FATHER SPITZER, "FR. SPITZER'S UNIVERSE" AND MUCH MORE AHEAD AS WE EXPLORE HIS NEW WORK, THE LIGHT SHINES ON IN THE DARK, TRANSFORMING SUFFERING THROUGH FAITH THROUGH THE EWTN RELIGIOUS CATALOGUE. STAY WITH US. ♪ ♪ >> Doug: AND WE CONTINUE RIGHT HERE IN "FR. SPITZER'S UNIVERSE" WHERE WE CAN FIND LIGHT IN THE DARKNESS. PART 2, THANKS TO FATHER SPITZER'S BOOK. AND WE'LL HEAD BACK OUT TO THE EAST COAST AND HEAD TO THE CHAPTER, BENEFITING FROM SUFFERING IN THE LONG TERM. AND IN THIS, YOU TALKED ABOUT SOMETHING INTERIOR AND EXTERNAL OPPORTUNITIES. AND I LOVE THAT OPPORTUNITY THING! INTERIOR OPPORTUNITIES OF THINGS AND EXTERNAL OPPORTUNITIES. WHAT'S THE DIFFERENCE? >> OKAY. INTERNAL ONE IS WHERE YOU ARE TRANSFORMING YOUR INTERIOR LIFE. YOU ARE BEING SHOCKED OUT OF SUPERFICIALITY, AND YOUR MEANING IN LIFE, FOR EXAMPLE. THAT'S AN INTERIOR OPPORTUNITY OR YOU KNOW, ACTUALLY BEING PURIFIED IN LOVE, HUMILITY, BEING PURIFIED IN COMPASSION. THAT'S AN INTERIOR OPPORTUNITY. WHERE YOU ARE BEING MORE PURIFIED IN YOUR FAITH. MORE TRUST ANYTHING THE LORD. AND THE IMPETUS OF THE HOLY SPIRIT, MORE AND MORE GENUINELY. THAT'S AN INTERIOR OPPORTUNITIES. AND EXTERIOR OPPORTUNITY OCCURS WHERE, FIRST OF ALL, LET'S SUPPOSE GOD ACTUALLY STOPS YOU BECAUSE OF SUFFERING FROM A SELF DESTRUCTIVE PATH. SO, YOU JUST GO, WHOA! I GOT TO GET OFF THIS PATH. THAT WOULD BE GOOD. BUT POSITIVE OPPORTUNITIES TOO. NOT JUST STOPPING YOU FROM A SELF-DESTRUCTIVE PATH. MAKES ALL OF THESE OPPORTUNITIES AVAILABLE FOR YOU TO SERVE OTHER PEOPLE. SO, YOU CAN NOW, BECAUSE OF SUFFERING, SOMEBODY ELSE'S SUFFERING, YOU CAN TURN AND TRY TO HELP THEM IN THEIR FAITH. AND YOU CAN TRY TO HELP THEM BY SERVING THEM, LISTENING TO THEM, HELPING THEM OUT, GIVING YOUR TIME. THESE ARE ALL OPPORTUNITIES BECAUSE SERVICE IN CHRISTIANITY IS VIEWED AS THE OPPORTUNITY TO LOVE. AND IT'S AN OPPORTUNITY WHICH ETCHES ITSELF RIGHT INTO YOUR SOUL. THE MORE YOU LOVE, THE MORE YOU SERVE IN ACTION. AND THE MORE YOU KIND OF TAKE THIS, ETCHED INTO YOUR VERY SOUL, THE MORE YOU BECOME LIKE THAT SERVANT, THAT VERY LOVING PERSON THAT WANTS TO SERVE. AGAIN, SERVICE DOESN'T NECESSARILY MEAN HAVING TO DO SOMETHING. SERVING CAN MEAN JUST BEING WITH PEOPLE IN THEIR NEED, LISTENING TO PEOPLE IN THEIR NEED. IT CAN JUST BE REACHING OUT TO SOMEBODY WHO IS ON THE MARGINS. ALSO DEFINITELY WORKING ON A FOOD LINE OR HELPING OUT AT THE ST. VINCENT DE PAUL OR BEING PART OF THE SOCIAL MINISTRIES, A COMMITTEE OF YOUR PARISH OR DIOCESE. ALSO, IT COULD BE SERVING THE CHURCH. OR YOU WOULD BE ON YOUR CHURCH'S FINANCE COMMITTEE OR THE PARISH COUNCIL OR A DIOCESAN COUNCIL OR SERVING ON AN ETHICS COMMITTEE IN A HOSPITAL OR SOMETHING IN THAT NATURE. OR JUST HAVING YOUR OWN LITTLE SERVICE OF EVANGELIZATION WHERE YOU WORK WITH YOUR COLLEAGUES OR OTHER PEOPLE TO TRY TO BRING THEM TO THE HOPE OF THE ETERNAL LIFE IN LOVE OF JESUS CHRIST THROUGH YOUR WORDS AND THROUGH YOUR DEFENSE OF THE FAITH. SO, ALL OF THESE THINGS WOULD BE, LIKE, EXTERIOR OPPORTUNITIES OF SUFFERING WHERE YOU ARE ACTUALLY PUTTING SOME SERVICE INTO PRACTICE EITHER BY BEING WITH PEOPLE OR DOING SOMETHING FOR SOMEBODY, PREACHING THE WORD OR JUST GIVING CARITAS, CHARITY, IN THE GOOD SENSE OF THAT WORD. SELF-GIVING LOVE. WHICH OF COURSE, ALL OF THESE THINGS TRANSFORM US. THEY ARE ALL EXCEEDINGLY GOOD FOR THE PEOPLE WE SERVE. >> Doug: OKAY. YOU STARTED WITH THE FIRST SECTION, INTERIOR OPPORTUNITIES OF SUFFERING. AND YOU SAY, INTERIOR TO SELF, IDEAS OF PRINCIPLES, CHARACTER, PERSON, IDENTITY SHAPING WHO WE ARE AND WHO WE WILL BECOME. AND YOU GO ON TO TALK ABOUT PHILOSOPHERS, PLATO AND ARISTOTLE SUGGESTING THAT OUR PERSONAL IDENTITY IS GOVERNED BY THE END OR OBJECTIVE OF THAT WHICH WE HABITUALLY PURSUE, OUR MAIN REASON FOR LIVING, END OBJECTIVE. IS THAT WHERE MAKING CHRIST AND THE LORD, THAT OBJECTIVE IS WHAT ULTIMATELY GUIDES US? >> THAT'S RIGHT. SO, WHEN I DID THOSE FOUR LEVELS OF HAPPINESS PREVIOUSLY, THE WHOLE POINT OF THOSE THINGS IS TO HELP PEOPLE. EVEN THOUGH I TAKE IT AS THE RUBRIC OF HAPPINESS. UNDER THE RUBRIC OF HAPPINESS. REALLY, IT TALKS ABOUT THE END PURPOSE OR THE OBJECTIVE OF OUR LIFE. SO, A LEVEL 1 OBJECTIVE, THAT'S THE MOST SUPERFICIAL REASON FOR LIVING, RIGHT? WELL, THE PURPOSE OF MY LIFE, AS JEREMY BENTON SAID, TO MAXIMIZE MY PLEASURE IMPULSES PER SECOND AND ACCUMULATE AS MUCH EXTERNAL WEALTH AS I CAN BEFORE I DIE. AND THEN WHEN I DIE, I'LL HAVE MY BODY STUFFED AND ROLLED INTO MY BOARD OF DIRECTORS MEETING. AND YOU THINK, THAT'S REALLY CRAZY. BUT THAT'S LEVEL ONE. TAKEN TO THE ULTIMATE EXTREME. WHICH JEREMY BENTON DID. SO, TO THIS DAY, HE IS STILL WHEELED IN THERE. YOU CAN GO TO GOOGLE AND SEE PICTURES OF HIS STUFFED SELF AT THE BOARD MEETING. AND YOU CAN SAY, WELL, IF THAT'S WHAT YOU WANT, THAT'S GREAT LEVEL ONE OBJECTIVE. BUT I DON'T THINK MOST PEOPLE ARE SEEKING THAT. SO, YOU CAN PUT LEVEL TWO AS THE END OBJECTIVE OF YOUR LIFE, RIGHT. AND THAT'S EGO COMPARATIVE ADVANTAGE. THE ONLY PROBLEM WITH EGO COMPARATIVE ADVANTAGE, AS THE END, THE END MEANS, THIS IS WHAT FULFILLMENT CONSISTS OF, I REACHED THE OBJECTIVE WHEN I HAVE DONE IT. AND AS YOU GET TO THE END OF YOUR LIFE AT 80-YEAR-OLD AND YOU GO, GREAT, I WAS SMARTER THAN EVERY ONE. AND I BEAT EVERY ONE AT DEBATES THAT WAS WORTHY OF DEBATING. AND AS A MATTER OF FACT, I WAS A BETTER ATHLETE THAN ANYBODY -- NOT WITH ME -- BUT I WAS A BETTER LOOKING PERSON -- NEVER HAPPEN WITH ME -- BUT I WAS BETTER, WHATEVER. I HAD MORE POWER, CONTROL, MORE STATUS. I WAS JUST PLAIN, I BEAT EVERY ONE INTO THE DUST. AND THEN, IT OCCURS TO YOU, AT 80-YEARS-OLD, THAT YOU MADE ABSOLUTELY NO DIFFERENCE TO THE WORLD OR ANYBODY ELSE. WITH ALL THESE GIFTS THAT YOU HAVE BEEN GIVEN, YOU MADE NO DIFFERENCE TO ANYONE OR ANYTHING. YOU JUST SIMPLY WERE A WASTE. AND ALL THOSE GIFTS YOU HAVE ARE WASTED. AND YOUR LIFE WAS COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT. SO, THAT'S THE PROBLEM WITH LEVEL TWO, RIGHT? YOU GET TO THAT GREAT CHARACTER IN E.M. FORESTER'S BOOK, A ROOM WITH A VIEW, AND THE GUY'S NAME IS CLAUDE. AND THE MINISTER IS ASKING HIM, MR. CLAUDE, WHAT'S YOUR PROFESSION. AND HE LOOKS UP AND HE GOES, OH, MY PROFESSION? WELL, IF I HAD TO DECLARE ONE, I SUPPOSE IT WOULD BE LEISURE. MY PHILOSOPHY AND ALL TOGETHER UNJUSTIFIED IS THAT I DON'T HAVE TO DO ANYTHING THAT I DON'T WANT TO DO NOW AS LONG AS I DON'T HARM ANYONE. IT IS AFTER ALL A SIGN OF MY DECADENCE. THAT'S LEVEL 2, IT'S MADNESS. AND THAT YOU DO ANYTHING FOR ANYONE. YOU LIVED YOUR LIFE FOR LEISURE, LEVEL ONE. OR YOU HAVE LIVED YOUR LIFE FOR EGO COMPARATIVE ADVANTAGE, LEVEL 2 WITH NO OTHER PURPOSE BEYOND YOURSELF. IN THE END, THAT'S INCIPIENT DESPAIR. AND THE HOPE OF COURSE, IS THROUGH, YOU KNOW, INSTRUCTION, FAITH, AND SOMETIMES SUFFERING THAT THE LORD WILL CALL US OUT OF THAT. BECAUSE IT'S SO TRENCH FIXING AT FIRST. AND THEN WE WANT TO GET TO LEVEL 3. AND LEVEL 3 IS, YOU KNOW, CONTRIBUTIVE. IT'S ACTUALLY, I DO WANT TO MAKE AN OPTIMAL, POSITIVE DIFFERENCE TO MY FAMILY, MY FRIENDS, THE CHURCH, THE KINGDOM OF GOD, THE ETERNAL LIVES OF THE PEOPLE AROUND ME, THE CULTURE, THE SOCIETY, MY ORGANIZATION, MY COMMUNITY. AND EVERY RESPECT THAT I CAN, I WANT TO MAKE A POSITIVE DIFFERENCE WITH MY LIFE TO THE GREATEST EXTENT THAT I CAN. NOW, IN THAT CASE, YOU REALLY WILL HAVE A CONTRIBUTIVE, PERVASIVE AND ENDURING MEANING. AND THAT, YOU ARE KIND OF COMING TO FULFILLMENT. BUT THAT'S NOT ENOUGH! REMEMBER, ST. AUGUSTINE'S CONFESSIONS, REMEMBER, RIGHT, AS HE DISCOVERS, YOU HAVE TO GO ALL THE WAY. BECAUSE YOU ARE A TRANSCENDENT BEING. YOU ARE CREATED BY GOD TO BE IN A RELATIONSHIP WITH HIM LEADING TOWARD PERFECT TRUTH, PERFECT LOVE, PERFECT GOODNESS, PERFECT BEAUTY, AND PERFECT HOME IN HIM. NOTHING ELSE SAYS ST. AUGUSTINE WILL SATISFY YOU, BECAUSE OF COURSE, AS HE SAYS AT THE BEGINNING OF BOOK ONE, FOR THOU HAS MADE US FOR OURSELVES AND OUR HEARTS ARE RESTLESS UNTIL THEY REST IN THERE THEE. AND WE TALKED ABOUT THE PSYCHIATRIC SURVEYS DONE, WHEN PEOPLE DON'T HAVE ANY RELIGIOUS AFFILIATION IN THEIR LIVES. THEY GO THROUGH TERRIFIC SUFFERING, INCREASED SUBSTANCE ABUSE, FAMILIAL TENSIONS, IMPULSIVITY, MALAISE, SUICIDE ATTEMPTS AND ON AND ON. WE NEED TO HAVE A LIFE OF FAITH. NOW, WHAT'S THE WHOLE POINT OF THIS. THE POINT OF THIS IS, HOW DO WE GET THERE? HOW IN THE WORLD DO WE JUST NOT GET TRANSFIXED BY THE GLORIES OF THIS WORLD, BY ALL THE EGO COMPARATIVE ADVANTAGES THAT WE MIGHT HAVE DUE TO OUR TALENTS OR BY ALL OF THE EXTERNAL MATERIAL STUFF THAT WE MAY BE ABLE TO GET FROM OUR OWN EFFORTS OR OUR FAMILY'S WEALTH OR WHATEVER IT MAY BE. HOW DO WE KEEP OURSELVES FROM BEING TRANSFIXED BY THE TRANSITORY GLORIES OF THE WORLD. WELL, ONE WAY IS TO DISCOVER IT, AS PLATO SAID, IDEALLY, BY EDUCATION, BY SAYING, GOSH. OF COURSE, I WANT TO CONTRIBUTIVE AND TRANSCENDENT AND 35% OF US WANT IT THAT WAY AND SAY YES. GOSH, WE WANT TO BE IN A RELATIONSHIP WITH GOD AND BE IN ETERNAL JOY IN HIS KINGDOM. AND SOME WILL SAY, GEE, I WANT TO MAKE A DIFFERENCE IN MY LIFE. I DON'T WANT JUST TO BE BETTER THAN ANYBODY ELSE. I WANT TO USE MY INTELLIGENCE TO MAKE A DIFFERENCE WITH AS MANY PEOPLE AS I CAN. AND YOU WILL GET THERE SOME OF US NEED A LITTLE EXTRA SOMETHING. AND THE EXTRA SUFFERING. WHY IS THAT? WE HAVE TO LEARN THAT THE GLORIES OF THIS WORLD ARE NOT ENOUGH FOR US. WE HAVE TO LEARN THAT THE GLORIES OF THIS WORLD WILL DISAPPOINT US. WE HAVE TO LEARN THAT IF WE LIVE FOR JUST EGO COMPARATIVE ADVANTAGE ALONE, GET READY FOR A LIFE OF EMPTINESS, ALIENATION, LONELINESS. GET READY FOR A LIFE OF JEALOUSY, FEAR OF FAILURE, FEAR OF LOSS OF THINGS, INFERIORITY, SUPERIORITY, GET READY FOR A LIFE OF EGO RAGE, BLAME, AND THOSE WONDERFUL THINGS LIKE CONTEMPT AND THE LONELINESS THAT COMES THEREFROM. IT'S PAIN. NO DOUBT. BUT THERE'S PAIN BUILT INTO THE INTRINSIC LIMITS TO EGO COMPARATIVE HAPPINESS AND MATERIAL HAPPINESS. THAT'S A REALLY GOOD THING. REALLY GOOD THING. AND EVEN PLATO WOULD HAVE RECOGNIZED, YES, PAIN DOES SOMETHING TO CALL US INTO, GET US GOING, THINGS INTO QUESTION LIKE HOLY MACKEREL. WHAT AM I LIVING FOR ANY WAY. THAT'S A REALLY GOOD QUESTION. AND IF YOU HAVEN'T ASKED IT AND YOU ARE JUST LIVING FOR EGO COMPARATIVE SATISFACTION, YOU HAVE NO CONTRIBUTIVE AND NO TRANSCENDENT MEANING OR PURPOSE IN YOUR LIFE. AND I WOULD SAY THAT THAT PAIN WILL BE SO BENEFICIAL, YOU WILL LOOK BACK ON IT WHEN YOU GET TO HEAVEN. AND YOU ARE GOING TO GO, WHEW, THANK GOODNESS I HAD THOSE PAINS! THANK GOODNESS THAT I WENT THROUGH THE DESERT. THANK GOODNESS I WAS JUST BLASTED RIGHT OFF MY SEAT. THANK YOU, LORD, FOR THE PAIN. AND THANK YOU, FOR THE FAITH THAT INTERPRETED THE PAIN SO I COULD ACTUALLY MOVE AHEAD TO HAVE A CONTRIBUTION TO LOVE, FAITH, AND TO LIVE A LIFE OF HIGH PURPOSE AND MEANING. >> Doug: ALSO, WOULD SOMEBODY IN THAT SITUATION ACTUALLY BE SOMEBODY WHO WAS A PAIN IN THE NECK TO YOU, IN THE SENSE OF SOMEBODY BOTHERING YOU, SAYING, YOU NEED TO CHANGE THIS, OR WAS SOMEBODY IN A SENSE WAS YOUR CONSCIENCE ON CERTAIN THINGS? >> Father: WELL, ACTUALLY, YOU KNOW, I THINK A THIRD, VERY GOOD METHOD. NORMALLY, AFTER THE PAIN. SOMETIMES, IF YOU ARE TRYING TO BOTHER A PERSON WHO DOESN'T HAVE OR SEE THE NEED YET, YOU COULD BE AS WE TALKED ABOUT EARLIER, CONVERT THE NARCISSIST. IT'S HARD TO CONVERT THE NARCISSIST IF THE NARCISSIST HASN'T UNDERGONE SOME TYPE OF PAIN, DEPRIVATION OR SOME SORT OF SOMETHING. IT CAUSED THEM TO BE SHOCKED OUT OF THE NEED FOR SELF ABSORPTION, THEY NEED TO HAVE A CAUSE FOR SOMETHING TO GET THEM OUT OF THAT. TO TRY TO GIVE A PERSON GOOD ADVICE OR CONSCIENCE TO THEM WHEN THEY ARE COMPLETELY SELF-ABSORBED GENERALLY NOT GOING TO DO ANYTHING. >> Doug: WE LOOK BACK AND THINK ABOUT WHAT OUR MOTHER, FATHER, OR SOMEBODY SAID SOMETHING TO US, AND IT WAS, LIKE, OH, I KNOW. I KNOW. I KNOW. I KNOW. AND YOU REALIZE LATER, OH, THANK GOODNESS THAT PERSON WAS THERE TO REMIND ME OF THAT FACT. >> Father: YES. >> Doug: EVEN THOUGH AT THE TIME IT WAS UNCOMFORTABLE. >> Father: ABSOLUTELY. NOW, I MEAN, I WOULD SAY ESPECIALLY WITH CHILDHOOD REARING. THINGS OF THAT NATURE, YEAH, OH MY POOR MOM. I WAS LIKE, DON'T WORRY, THANKS MOM BUT I KNOW EVERYTHING. DON'T WORRY ABOUT ADVISING ME. I HAVE TAKEN LIFE UNDER MY CONTROL AND ALL MY WISDOM. OF COURSE, BY THE TIME YOU GET TO 30, YOU GET WHACKED A FEW TIMES AND YOU THINK, JUST LIKE ST. AUGUSTINE SAID, YOU KNOW, MY MOTHER WAS RIGHT ALL ALONG. YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN? ALL OF A SUDDEN, YOU GET TO THAT POINT WHERE YOU KNOW. OH MY GOSH. THIS WAS GOOD ADVICE. SO, YES, IT DOES PAY SOMETIMES TO TRY TO TEACH SOMEBODY. I THINK NAGGING CAN BE COUNTER PRODUCTIVE. >> Doug: ABSOLUTELY. >> Father: BUT I DO THINK, THOUGH, TRYING TO SIT DOWN AND TEACH A PERSON, LIKE, IF YOU JUST SAID, I READ THIS STUFF ON THE FOUR LEVELS OF HAPPINESS. AND JUST XEROX CHAPTER 3 ABOUT THE COMPARISON GAME AND THE EMPTINESS AND LONELINESS CHAPTER. XEROX THAT OFF AND SLIDE IT OVER THERE. AND SAY, THIS CHAPTER, THIS REALLY AFFECTED ME. DON'T SAY ANYTHING. DON'T TALK ABOUT THEM. DON'T NAH THEM. DON'T EVER SAY, YOU SHOULD. DON'T DO THAT. YOU JUST SAY, I READ THE CHAPTER. >> Doug: AND YOU SAY, KEEP IT ON YOURSELF. JUST SAY, I READ THIS CHAPTER. >> Father: EXACTLY. AND THAT WAY OF TEACHING, IT'S VERY EFFECTIVE. AND ONE DAY, THEY MAY JUST PICK THAT UP. NOW, THEY MAY PICK IT UP BEFORE THEY SUFFER. AND IF THEY ARE A NARCISSIST, THE ODDS OF THEM PICKING IT UP BEFORE THEY SUFFER ARE ABOUT 5%. BUT STILL, IT'S WORTH GIVING IT TO THEM. BECAUSE IF THEY DO SUFFER, THEY MAY PICK IT UP. AND THEY MAY SAY, WELL, WHAT WAS HE TALKING ABOUT THERE. AND JUST READS THROUGH IT. AND SOMETIMES I ALSO SAY, HEY, IF YOU EVER GET TO A POINT, YOU KNOW, I'M TALKING TO A PURE NARCISSIST HERE. IF YOU ARE EVER GET TO GO A POINT WHERE YOU ARE OUT OF CONTROL OR SUFFERING AND YOU REALLY NEED HELP, MAY MY DOOR IS ALWAYS OPEN. COME AND SEE ME. I'LL BE GLAD TO HELP YOU OUT. IT'S AMAZING. JUST GIVING THE OFFER. AND OF COURSE, THEY TELL YOU, DON'T WORRY ABOUT ME, I'M NEVER GOING TO SUFFER. LIFE IS GOOD. THEN, THE CANCER DIAGNOSIS COMES IN. TWO YEARS LATER, WHATEVER IT IS. AND ALL OF A SUDDEN, HEY, YOU MADE THAT OFFER A COUPLE OF YEARS AGO. >> Doug: YEAH, YOU REMEMBER. >> Father: AND I NEVER SAY I TOLD YOU SO. AND I SAY, OH. COME VISIT ME. I GOT SOME STUFF YOU MIGHT WANT TO HEAR ABOUT. OR I JUST GIVE THEM SOMETHING, I TALK ABOUT NEAR DEATH EXPERIENCES. AND THEY WOULD NEVER HAVE READ ABOUT THAT BEFORE. AND ALL OF A SUDDEN, THEY ARE JUST PLOWING INTO IT. AND THEY SAY, DO YOU HAVE ANYTHING MORE ABOUT THIS STUFF. AND I HAVE, YEAH, IT'S CALLED THE NEW TESTAMENT. SO, I JUST TRY TO INTRODUCE FROM THE IMAGE OF GOD AND THE NEAR DEATH EXPERIENCE, GO RIGHT BACK TO JESUS IN THE NEW TESTAMENT. BECAUSE THE PARALLELS ARE SO STRIKING, THE OPPORTUNITY IS RIGHT THERE. THERE'S ALL KINDS OF THINGS THAT YOU CAN DO. BUT NAGGING IS PROBABLY COUNTER PRODUCTIVE. AND TEACHING, AS YOU PUT IT, DOUG, SAYING IT'S ME. >> Doug: WELL, REALIZING, OH, OKAY, I WAS LUCKY EVEN THOUGH AT THE TIME I WAS DISMISSIVE. SO YOU SAY IN THE BOOK, DOESN'T MATTER IF WE HAVE A STRONG BELIEF IN AFTER LIFE, THE FINALITY OF DEATH INCITES US TO MAKE A STATEMENT ABOUT THE PRE DEATH MEANING OF OUR LIVES. I'M THINKING ABOUT WHAT YOU ARE SAYING, WHEN SOMETHING LIKE THAT REARS ITS HEAD, THE FACT THAT ONE WAS OR WAS NOT A BELIEVER, THIS KIND OF CRYSTALLIZES SOMETHING THAT WAS ONE WAY OR THE OTHER A REALITY. LET ME ASK YOU THIS QUESTION. YOU TALKED ABOUT IN THE BOOK. BOTH GOOD HABITS AND BAD HABITS. AND YOU TALKED ABOUT THE VIRTUE BEING GOOD HABITS. NOW, IS IT POSSIBLE FOR SOMEONE TO BE GOING ALONG, THINKING A PARTICULAR HABIT OR A HABIT AND FIND OUT LATER IT WAS A BAD HABIT. AND HAVE YOU EVER HAD AN EXPERIENCE LIKE THAT? >> Father: ABSOLUTELY. AND PROBABLY SEVERAL OF THEM, YOU KNOW. BUT ONE OF THE THINGS THAT I THINK IN TERMS OF SELF DECEPTION, RIGHT. WHEN YOU ARE, LIKE, LEVEL 2 OBSESSED, THEN YOU WILL SAY THINGS LIKE, I JUST CONCENTRATE ON MY WORK. RIGHT. AND WHAT MAKES ME TO BE A GOOD PERSON IS THE FACT THAT I CAN GET A BOOK WHIPPED OUT IN X. AMOUNT OF TIME. NOW, IN ORDER TO DO IT IN X. AMOUNT OF TIME, INSTEAD OF TWO X. AMOUNT OF TIME, I GOT TO IGNORE EVERYBODY IN NEED IN MY LIFE. BUT THAT'S OKAY BECAUSE I'M REALLY BEING EFFICIENT. OF COURSE, IN ORDER TO BE EFFICIENT, YOU HAVE TO HAVE YOUR PRIORITIES, RIGHT? AND I WOULD TELL MYSELF THIS ALL THE TIME. YOU GOT TO HAVE PRIORITIES. OF COURSE, THERE'S A HUNDRED PEOPLE TRYING TO KNOCK AT THE DOOR, I REALLY NEED YOUR HELP, I REALLY NEED YOUR HELP. PLEASE. MAY I HAVE FIVE MINUTES OF YOUR TIME. NO, NO. GOT TO GET THE BOOK DOWN. GOT MY PRIORITIES. DON'T WANT TO FINISH THIS BOOK IN 2X. AND I TELL YOU TO THIS VERY DAY, THE RESIDUAL THAT I HAD AS A YOUNGER MAN, IT'S STILL THERE. I HAVE TO COMBAT IT. IT INGRAINED ITSELF IN ME. IT GOT INTO MY MENTALITY. YES, IT'S TRUE THAT SOMETIMES YOU HAVE TO FINALLY SAY TO PEOPLE, I DO HAVE TO DO SOME WORK ON THE BOOK. I HAVE TO GET DOWN TO THE TELEVISION PROGRAM. I HAVE TO BE ABLE TO PREPARE FOR THIS THING SO I CAN DO A QUALITY JOB, OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT. THEN, YES. YES, YOU CAN SET YOUR LIMITS. BUT BOY, YOU CAN ACTUALLY ABSOLUTELY HAVE A HABIT THAT YOU THINK IS JUST A BEE'S KNEES. AND IN RETROSPECT YOU THINK, OH, THE LORD WAS NOT LIKE THIS AT ALL. SOMEBODY CRYING OUT, LIKE BARTEMEUS, OF COURSE, HE HAD TO GET SOMEWHERE. BUT IN THE MEANTIMES, THE LORD HEARS THE CRY OF BARTEMEUS, AND WHEN HE HEARS IT, HE STOPS. EVERYBODY ELSE IS TELLING BARTEMEUS, SHUT UP. THE TEACHER DOESN'T WANT TO HEAR YOU. AND OF COURSE, JESUS SAYS, OH, WHO IS CALLING ME. BRING HIM OVER. AND THEN, ALL OF A SUDDEN, THE TUNE CHANGES AND THE GUY SAYS, OH, HE'S CALLING YOU. BETTER, GUSTAV HERE AND SHOW UP FOR THE TEACHER. AND THEN, THEY BRING HIM OVER. AND HE'S THE ONLY ONE THAT HEARS THAT CRY. BUT THERE IS THE EXAMPLE THAT WE DO, WE HAVE TO ALLOW THESE THINGS TO OCCUR IN OUR LIVES AND LET THEM MATTER. WE HAVE TO BE LISTENING AS THE LORD LISTENS. AND SO, YES, IT'S SO TRUE PRIORITIES CAN ESPECIALLY TASK-ORIENTED PRIORITIES, THEY ARE NECESSARY TO DO CERTAIN THINGS. AND YOU CAN'T JUST WALL OUT EVERYTHING. YOU HAVE TO BE BALANCED IN ORDER TO GET THAT LOVE OF CHRIST, TO TRULY RESEMBLE HIS OWN LOVE IN OUR LIVES. >> Doug: HERE'S A QUESTION QUICK FROM YOUR BOOK AS WE MOVE AHEAD. BECAUSE WE'RE COMING DOWN TO THE CLOSING MINUTES. WHY DOES SUFFERING PRESENT SUCH A REMARKABLE OPPORTUNITY FOR SOLIDIFYING AND ESTABLISHING OUR ETERNAL CHARACTER ON IDENTITY. WHY SUFFERING? >> Father: YEAH, BECAUSE AS I WAS SAYING BEFOREHAND, FOR MOST OF US, WE REALLY DO NEED A KIND OF A PAINFUL CALL, A REMINDER. AND THE REASON IS, THE GOOD TIMES PRODUCE AN INERTIA. COMFORT PRODUCES INERTIA. I'M SUMMARIZING THE WHOLE FIRST FIVE BOOKS OF ST. AUGUSTINE'S CONFESSIONS, RIGHT. HE'S ON THE COMFORT PATH. AND OF COURSE, HE'S THE HIGH ROLLER. HE HAS THE GIFTS. HE'S GOT THE TALENTS. YOU KNOW, HE DOES GET BOTHERED BY SOME OF HIS STUDENTS, NOT THE BEST IN THE WORLD AND HE COMPLAINS ABOUT THEM AND SO FORTH. BUT LET'S FACE IT. THE GUY IS ROLLING HIGH IN COMFORT. AND THEN, ALL OF A SUDDEN, SOMETHING HAPPENS. AND WHEN, OF COURSE, IT'S SUFFERING. SO, ALL OF A SUDDEN, IT'S THIS GUY WHO IS JUST BEING LULLED INTO COMPLETE NARCISSISM. LIVING LEVEL ONE, LEVEL TWO EXISTENCE, HAVING A GOOD OLE TIME. ALL OF A SUDDEN, HE GOES, HEY, I'M NOT MAKING ANY DIFFERENCE DIFFERENCE IN MY LIFE HERE. WHAT'S GOING ON. WHY DIDN'T ANYBODY TELL ME ABOUT THIS! OF COURSE, EVERYBODY WAS TELLING HIM BUT HE WAS NOT LISTENING. ALL OF A SUDDEN, THE SUFFERING HAPPENS IN HIS LIFE. AND ONE OF THE THINGS IS, THAT HAPPENS AND CAUSES THE SUFFERING IS THE VERY THING THAT YOU MENTIONED ABOUT FIVE MINUTES AGO, DEATH. ST. AUGUSTINE STARTS THINKING ABOUT DEATH. AND OF COURSE, PREVIOUSLY, HE HAD BEEN PUTTING THIS OUT OF HIS MIND. BUT THAT THOUGHT OF DEATH, PEOPLE COME UP. I HAD A STUDENT ONCE COME UP AND ACTUALLY TOLD ME, IF GOD WERE ALL LOVING, HE CERTAINLY WOULDN'T HAVE CREATED DEATH. HE WOULD HAVE JUST LET US KNOW RIGHT UP FRONT, WE WERE ALL DESTINED FOR ETERNAL JOY IN HIM. AND I SAID, NO. BECAUSE GOD IS ALL LOVING, HE GAVE US DEATH SO THAT WE WOULDN'T CHOOSE AN ETERNAL LIFE THAT WOULD BE SELF-ORIENTED, DEPRIVED OF LOVE, DEPRIVED OF THE JOYS OF LOVE INTO THE DARKNESS OF OUR OWN SELF ABSORPTION, INTO THE DARKNESS OF DOMINANCE OF OTHERS AND INTO SELF-WORSHIP WHERE WE NEVER EVEN GET TO SEE THE TRUE LIVING GOD WHO IS REALLY THE SOURCE OF LOVE AND JOY. I SAID, NOW, FOR MOST OF US, YOU KNOW, IN THE WORLD, WITHOUT THAT NOTION OF DEATH, JUST LIKE ST. AUGUSTINE, RIGHT, WITHOUT THAT NOTION OF DEATH, ALL OF A SUDDEN, YOU ARE JUST SITTING THERE, RIGHT, THINKING, HEY, THIS IS A COOL SLIDE. I GUESS I'LL JUST CHOOSE THE PATH THAT GOES TOWARD THE MAXIMUM AMOUNT OF COMFORT. AND JUST BECAUSE OF THE INERTIA, YOU DON'T VARY. BUT BOY, YOU KNOW, THAT ONE LITTLE THOUGHT, OH, I'M GOING TO DIE. I NEED TO THINK ABOUT THIS. WHAT PURPOSE DO I WANT IN MY LIFE. >> Doug: ONE OF THE THINGS THAT'S CRYSTALLIZING RIGHT NOW IS JUST THAT WE'RE OUT OF TIME. DON'T FORGET, FATHER SPITZER HAS AN ALL NEW BOOK ON SUFFERING, AVAILABLE THROUGH THE RELIGIOUS CATALOG. PART OF THE FOUR SET OF BOOKS. AND DON'T FORGET, MOTHER ANGELICA'S BOOK WHICH WE HAVE PUT UP THERE AS WELL. THANK YOU SO MUCH, FATHER SPITZER. ALWAYS GREAT TO SEE YOU. WE'LL CATCH YOU NEXT WEEK AS WE CONTINUE ON WITH YOUR WONDERFUL BOOK HERE. AND DON'T FORGET, EWTN, LET ME LOOK OVER AT THE MOTHER ANGELICA SCREEN AND SEE THAT THERE'S PRAYERFUL LIVING AND KINGDOM RIGHT THERE ON THE SCREEN. DON'T FORGET ABOUT THE BEATIFICATION, AND FATHER AS WELL AS WE SAY GOODBYE TO HIM. FATHER, COMING UP ON THE 23RD. AND NEXT TIME I THINK WE'RE GOING TO BE TALKING MORE ABOUT THE PARTICULAR CHAPTER SINCE WE DIDN'T GET TOO FAR IN CHAPTER 7. MUCH MORE AHEAD, ALWAYS SOMETHING TO TALK ABOUT, IN "FR. SPITZER'S UNIVERSE", MAKE SURE YOU ARE THERE WHERE FAITH MEETS REASON. I'M DOUG KECK, JOIN US NEXT WEEK RIGHT HERE IN "FR. SPITZER'S UNIVERSE". ♪
