Burke Ramsey Dr Phil Interview Body Language Analysis (2021)

let's clear this up once and for all did you do anything to harm your sister john bonnett did you murder your sister john bonay i hate it all right you ready yeah yep here we go i'm scott rouse my body language expert analyst and i trained law enforcement in the military in interrogation and body language and i created the number one online body language course body language tactics with greg hartley mark i'm mark bowden i'm an expert in human behavior and body language helping people all over the world to stand out when trust and gain credibility every time they communicate including some of the leaders of the g7 chase i'm chase hughes i did 20 years in the u.s military nowadays i teach intelligence agencies and the general public in enhanced persuasion interrogation influence and people reading also number one best-selling author of the ellipsis manual and behavior profiling greg greg hartley i'm a former army interrogator interrogation instructor resistance to interrogation instructor of written 10 books on body language and behavior put together this number one body language tactics.com course with scott i spend most of my time on wall street in corporate america all right now this is your first time being here go ahead and subscribe we're over 200 000 subscribers now we're on a jag so go ahead and subscribe we really appreciate it and hit the like button as well today we're going to talk about burke ramsey he's jean benay's brother and there was a big hoopla about whether he had anything to do with what happened to her so we're going to take a look at the videos from dr phil's show where he interviewed burke and keep in mind as we go through this we're not on the side of whether he's guilty or not guilty or anything or he did it or didn't do it we're switzerland we don't care we could not possibly care less we don't know that guy we're just telling you what we see in the body language in these specific videos now at the end we'll say here's what we we might say here's what we think happened in the big picture but what we're doing now is we're just showing you the body language and telling you about that that we're seeing these specific videos that we're showing you that's it all right you ready yeah come on here we go you remember waking up that morning yep the first thing i remember is my mom first thing in my room really frantic saying like oh my gosh oh my gosh oh my gosh running around my room looking for dominate at that point i was awake the next thing i remember is a police officer coming to my room and shining a flashlight it was still dark when this happened yeah i was just laying there i never go first on these so i'm gonna go first this time good all right so a lot of people gonna say this behavior we're seeing is odd and it is odd behavior for most people but what we're seeing here is when people say well he's really still he doesn't move very much what's going on is this we're seeing small scale demonstrative behavior in other words we're seeing the same things we've seen someone who moves around a lot but we're seeing very small very small movements uh for example if you go see mark and you see it's somewhere where mark does a keynote he's all the time he's way you know he uses everything even on here he's using he's very demonstrative with his with his illustrators but in this case the bricks illustrators are really small everything from we see hardly any movement in his eyebrows at all throughout all these throughout the entire videos uh that we're using here the time we see it the most here is when he talks about being awake when he says when i was awake then that's when his his eyebrows go up and then again um where he talks about the the cop of the flashlight which we'll we'll get into in just a few minutes but we don't see a whole lot of of behaviors that are um what would normally be called turned as normal for example the behaviors we're seeing are common among those with uh with autism on the autistic spectrum and really really introverted in shy people so the the when we see these movements they're very small they're really little like in this case we're seeing when he when he we we see three at a time sometimes where his eyebrows his eyebrows don't go up but his head will move back his arms will come up there is one time where his eyebrows do move at the same time um we see his hand fidgeting we can tell he's under a lot of stress because the way his hand is fishing he's not moving a whole lot we're saying it's fidgeting also his legs are crossed most people are going to be under the impression that when someone's legs are crossed and their arms are crossed they're not into what you have to say they're they're turned off in this case it's his ankles are crossed and his legs are still open a little bit that denotes that indicates that he's relaxed a little bit dr phil's a great guy we've talked to him he's really nice guy so i'm sure before andy's talked to him got him relaxed and got him ready to ask these questions to him so the kid's fairly relaxed when we when we see him getting stressed again we see things a little chew on his mouth and we see that hand get to go in there when he gets really stressed he'll he'll pop off with a couple other things which we'll get into later on if but going back to the crossed ankles if you're in an elevator try to keep your legs crossed before anybody gets on cross your legs and lean up against the back there when somebody gets on your brain is going to say we better we better not do this anymore not just from a social aspect but from a i better protect myself aspect so his his ankles are crossed which that lets us know or lets you know that he's relaxed and he's he doesn't feel threatened at this point so that's what i got greg what do you got yeah so for me among the best parts of this entire interview is the fact that dr phil was asking questions that he is no reason to lie to what we would call a control question typically something that we can get a baseline for this guy so we see his baseline now i'm also going to tell you he's got a nervous weird smile there are two things i'll say about that it's only nervous and weird if you're not him in his case it's always there go look at pictures of him at his mother's funeral go look at pictures of him as a child that smile is there i was talking to my sister-in-law today she had a great point never even considered it she said do you think maybe he picked that up from being around all the pageant stuff you know all that fake smile and his sister was always doing his mother was coaching and he always saw it maybe pick that up there don't know not speculating but great call out by lisa so then if i look at his baseline he's open mostly he has his legs crossed like he said but that's pretty he's still pretty open in his body language at this point and he's illustrating meaning punctuating what he's thinking very effectively that's chase i think you call it body narration he's using a flashlight he's sleeping he's doing all that stuff that tells you he's he's really telling a story when he does feel uncomfortable or when he's uncertain how he's perceived he does a request for approval that brow goes up and his hands come up as if hey what are we going to do here if you want to know if this smile is a smile or if it's just his normal go back to when he says um at that point i was awake i'm sorry the next thing i remember go to go back watch the video and freeze it when he says the next thing i remember and look at his face it's not a smile it's his normal i think i told the story of the navy seal like all laughing boy resting smile face i guess is the way you put it right he's good just have a face that looks like he's smiling all the time this guy is one of those people so we're looking at what's a baseline for him remember if you do something enough it's normal for you humans form habits very quickly and we all have something odd it's just we're not all being asked if we killed someone so we are not all under that kind of scrutiny chase what do you got i absolutely agree with you greg and i think uh my first thing here is smiling in parentheses pageant mom training uh so that was a that was a big thing that i thought about this morning and i do think uh there's a very good potential that we're dealing with someone on the spectrum here and so everything that the moment that you realize something like this is happening everything needs to be taken as an outlier this behavior might be an outlier so the eyes are moving to five o'clock if you're looking at him i'm i'm giving you the clock eyes are moving to five o'clock when his mom is looking for jonbenet but they're three o'clock when he's talking about the police and the torch or the flashlight as we say here so think of those two things the police probably did happen and if i was the interrogator here i would say this is two different things there's different things going on here talking about mom coming in i'm talking about laying in bed and being asleep and my body doesn't move but i'm talking about the police coming in and searching the room and now my body gets a lot more movement a lot more illustrative and the eyes and body move together as he's recalling the police being in there they did not in in the first part and when he discusses laying in bed his body shows you how he was laying he's narrating he's showing you what was going on and when he speaks about his mother coming in to ask where jonbenet is there's no movement there's not a lot of movement there but when he's talking about laying in bed both of his hands are up like this and i think he was scared when he woke up that morning and that's what we call a pugilistic movement if even if a human being burns to death in a fire their body naturally ends up in that position permanently because that's our natural go-to response for a pugilistic situation or self-defense there's an interesting video here and i'm going to talk about his baseline throughout but greg had a lot of that and i want you to watch when he makes eye contact and when he doesn't so starting now we're going to re-watch this you'll see the rest of these videos watch when he makes it and when he doesn't make it i think that's pretty relevant mark yeah lovely so think about one of the things that you're going to want to do when you're in a pageant one of the things you're not going to want to show is that you are you have fear essentially i think what we're going to see through this is how he tries to protect himself from showing fear there are many types of smile out there some of the smiling we're gonna see is that pageant smile it's it's bright-eyed and bushy-tailed uh there's a real life in the eyes but actually we don't see the wrinkles here that would make it a true smile of pleasure it's kind of put on to give energy and life sometimes we're going to see the the smile of fear and i i think you're absolutely right chase i've got it myself that that this is a signal of fear we see when he talks about when he starts reenacting that moment of the police coming in we see him shrink as the police come in then he becomes the police officer and we see him grow a little bit and look around as the police officer that tells me he's able to take on different characters which would mean he's he's even easily influenced into taking on aspects of the story that tells me as well going further down we'd have to be careful interviewing him because he'll easily take on any character that we present to him uh what i do want to say is right at the start you know do you remember this yep it's really clear yeah it's not yes i do there seems to be no kind of i'll elongate this i'll i'll make it grander than it needs to be just yeah i remember it he becomes himself the police officer he acts that out we do see these indicators in his hand of some stress and pressure and we'll see that later on where he kind of digs into his own hand to to kind of potentially self-stimulate and alleviate some of the pressure that he's not in control of from outside but yeah i just want to leave it on that it feels to me already he'll he's easy to influence and he's going to use this smiling to protect himself to replicate other people to not let us know that he's fearful because he's on display right now he knows this is a big tv show he's with a really high status character there yeah dr phil really lovely to be around absolutely but super famous and so it's a big high stress situation uh to to that sense there that's what i got for you all right one thing i wanted to add about his illustrators is when we see we see four of them at the same time i think i said three earlier we see his eyebrow this is the most illustrators we see used at one time in this thing his eyebrows go up and his his hands go up and his head goes back that's two if you count one two three and then four that's four of them at one time so he's really he's he's paying attention to what he's saying and he's really trying he's really selling as he goes through that which is good which is what you want to do and that that comes out naturally so when you see those you see two or three in tandem or in concert with each other that's actually a good sign and especially when you see a lot of illustrators that the person is most likely being um forthright or honest about what they're talking about uh he's following his story sorry you gotta had greg yeah he's following his story is my favorite part of the whole thing he looks like he's telling a story what's interesting is this guy has been kind of cloistered since jonbenet was killed and so all of this kind of behavior all of the body language that we all take for granted he's not he's not using it he's not around all the same people we are we're all more comfortable because we're in front of people the more cloistered you are the more likely your body language is to become odd and if you ever run into people who are in a very cloistered environment they all have signaling that's odd i don't know a whole lot about him i know he works in some kind of computer security now and he's very private now so yeah yeah i would say we're getting a lot of information compressed into short areas and that's why we might see a lot of stuff like for example chase when you were talking about his eyes going from five to kind of the other side i think that's because time is being compressed for him and he's having you know those two elements of the story are quite separate but because uh he's being asked to talk about them now they kind of get crunched together and it just looks a bit weird that he goes from one side to the other side if he told the story over time i think you know we might get something more uh usual from him but i don't see him hiding time to what something that you know greg mike might bring up there's no there's no and and then right now that yeah it just jumps from from one story to another one thing that bugged me to death and i don't want to talk bad about their editor but man you probably know says mark the editing on the right the video editing is okay but the sound on it is horrible because you hear the room sound when when brooke is talking then when dr phil talks it's just dr phil it's all compressed and nice and you don't have that room sound the editor should have taken you do when you go re film somewhere or video somewhere you get what's called a room sound so if there's any problems you have that room sound go over so if you have an on an odd edit you know it doesn't sound one noise in one sound of the room this way when somebody's talking then a completely different sound somebody else is talking that kept bugging this squad out of me i couldn't stand that wait until next time you're on dr phil and that sound engineer gets hold here that's why i say don't talk bad about it maybe they're in a hurry or something you remember waking up that morning yep the first thing i remember is my mom first thing in my room really frantic saying like oh my gosh oh my gosh oh my gosh running around my room looking for dominate at that point i was awake the next thing i remember is a police officer coming to my room and shining a flashlight it was still dark when this happened yeah i was just laying there all right we good yeah all right yeah what time did she come in early i don't remember it had to be it was still dark so it had to be yeah did she turn on the light when she came in i don't remember if she did or not i do remember the cop coming in and shining a flashlight around so the light must've been off all right chase what do you got i'll just give you a quick technique here that you can see in the video and you can actually use this is what's called a simple question he's like was it dark and he says i don't think it was dark but he continues to provide more information or dr phil asks when was it and he says i don't know but continues to provide ancillary ancillary information that is not relevant to the question and i think this speaks to his upbringing and it can really illustrate how a person is going to behave the rest of an interview for all of us when we interview somebody if we ask them a simple question they continue to provide more information that's not deceptive but i know that my technique is going to change down the road in how i ask questions uh greg yeah so a couple of things i what i see here is a bit of anxiety about how he's performing with dr phil i mean you see that taffy pulling with his eyes you know trying to like get get you to buy into whatever he's saying not because he's lying because he's uncertain bites in the side of his mouth a little bit that grooming piece not because he's lying because he's uncertain he's felt if you're not sure that when he does that goofy little that's a request for approval that is a that is a confirmation glance that's whatever you want to call it but it shows confusion in his face and he's literally with his face saying does that make sense you can't miss it i mean he's really worried about how this guy's going to treat him and he does rifle through his memory if you see his eyes rifle around his head in different places like i first of all he's nine if you ask most nine year olds what time it was uh early because they're not going to think in terms of time and so it's a good question for dr phil because it forces him to think it's a style that he's adopted that works for him with all those euphemisms and stuff he uses i just see a kid who wants to make this guy happy that's what i see uh mark what do you got yeah exactly the same he's worried he's in front of a high status figure and he wants to get it right but he doesn't have the data for him and so and so he's just he's taking all the help he can get from dr phil and dr phil's helping him he's going you know what time was it i don't quite know well it must have been early yeah i'll go with that i'll go with i'll go with early yeah and so and so then you even see some disgust for his inability to come up with the certain data that the interviewer is asking for the the big thing that comes out of me for me here is that he's responding to status here and it's so important for him to get things right for somebody of this uh this status already i think his memories are getting muddled and there's a lot of kind of compression happening of of time you know in the last story he put two things you know very close together and i think that's why we got that immediate eye movement here dr phil's kind of helped him spread it out and gone well they must have been some distance apart and he's going yeah like an hour three quarters of an hour like he just doesn't know he doesn't have that that that timeline uh there um so i think he's he's under pressure and he's doing his best in these circumstances still we have that again that slight smile that none of us are really expecting for the circumstance but for him it's quite usual for him to have that slight smile and again look to the corners it's not the smile of pleasure it's the smile of some other things more likely the smile of i want to get this right for the high status person it's a smile application i would say scott what do you got um we see his stress is jacking up a little bit as his hand starts squiggling around over here he does that a lot if you'll notice his fingernails are a little bit long doesn't mean he doesn't take care of himself but apparently he likes that kind of thing because they are a little bit long but his his hand gets over there and fidgets a little bit also um when doc dr phil i thought asked a great question he said did she turn the light on that's when he freezes that's where everything stops then he goes in that's when you see his eyes rifle around and they're looking for information trying to think and he doesn't remember whether she did or not you know she must have you know but then he says again as chase talks about where he's he's uh uh narrating the story he shows how the cop was was you know i think he says the cop was shining light around he remembered that part but you guys have covered pretty much everything i i had on here um but this is this is the biggest um smile he's had so far that's the one that goes up that goes up the large this point um but yeah that's it i think you guys got everything absolutely in a couple of things when we're talking about smiles i think it i think it was ekman who said it's most complex of all human expressions is the smile i mean they're nine different kinds of smiles if i remember the number but chimps smile and show their teeth from terror so if you don't project onto him that what we are seeing is hey i'm trying to hide something then you get entirely different things so yeah i i saw the same movement i think if we can keep our minds open and forget how creepy the smile looks when you're talking about death you'll see a different thing yeah i agree with the reason it's it's going to be creepy is when is is our instinct defaults to negatives when it doesn't know why something is happening so we've been presented here with a boy smiling around being questioned about his sister's death we in our minds can't work out why would you smile so our instinct goes because you've done something bad it's it's safer for us to default to negatives rather than default to positives and go you know a positive view of it would be he's just trying to proclaim the person of high status uh because he's under pressure and that's what he does to his teachers his youth club leaders his father his mother anybody of status he's gonna he's gonna smile you know yeah and that smile when we're talking about the things we're seeing in his smile and mark keeps saying it's not the right kind of wrinkles that's the lateral canthus that's little muscles here on the side and your brain makes those things go at an angle like this when you squint they come down like this but when you do it when your brain does it they come in at an angle like this they kind of squish in that's what we're looking for in there and that's known as that's part of what's known as a duchene smile that's where you've got the obicularis oculi down here those little muscles push up we're not seeing that in his smile in this next video he's got a huge one and this is going to be the biggest smile i think he has in the whole thing and what we're seeing is his teeth are going to come together like you guys are talking about it's almost that animalistic fake smile is when you smile and a regular smile then you fake smile everybody you go that's the fake smile so what we're seeing there is a combination i think of fear and just trying as greg was saying earlier to please dr phil try to make everything copacetic make everything smooth because he's a little bit nervous so let me talk my part out for the next video yeah desmond moore and morons gosh desmond morris referred to that smile as the smile of deference when he refers to uh primate behavior yeah all right and that's chase hughes author of the number one bestseller the ellipsis manual talking about desmond morin [Laughter] zero oh man what time did she come in early i don't remember it had to be it was still dark so it had to be yeah did she turn on the light when she came in i don't remember if she did or not i do remember the cop coming in and shining a flashlight around so the light must have been off how long after she came in before the police officer came in it's under an hour so she comes in and were you asleep when she came in did she wake you up she woke me up and she's running around your room saying oh my gosh oh my gosh oh my gosh what else did she say did you know she was looking for john monet i remember saying where's my baby where's my baby all right mark what do you got yeah thea so you'll you'll see it on uh she woke me up you'll see him look to the side you'll see the eyes widen significantly that moment when he was woken up he was scared uh you'll see again fear on where's my baby where's my baby and you'll see him dig his fingers into the soft part of the flesh here in order to create his own stimulation because the stimulation of that event is out of control for him i think what we're looking at here is somebody trying to still manage the intense fear that must have happened in that in that situation i would i would imagine um because of the intensity of the mother's behavior the voice do you hear how he goes where's my baby where's my and how soft he is it's nothing like anybody would say where's my baby where's my baby he's gone almost to the opposite side of that so that he doesn't have to deal with the intensity of that that moment out breath on uh under an hour i think there's an out breath of the head because it's like i don't know this is stuff but i don't have the the answer to and you know he's upset with himself but not being able to go you know what i i got the stopwatch out um and you know how how old was he when this when this happened nine yeah he's not able to go well as a nine year old i always oh no mark's froze [Laughter] [Music] okay what does he look like he's doing let's break that down and greg you're muted now seems okay let me just let me just try and go back yeah you're going again i think we make up a name for that move that's the swahili milkmaid i think he just won the lottery look at him so mark i agree with you for sure and uh i think you know the smile is his baseline that's that's what he's doing here it's his baseline in this and in another video if you watched another one of our videos you've heard us saying that people who say i remember blank i remember blank are more likely to be deceptive but in this case dr phil uses that word in the question so that takes away from us all probably saying that this is deceptive because he's saying i remember that something happened and just as a note here his eyes kind of retreat to this five o'clock position when when you're watching him so they did this when he was being asked a question and they did this specifically when he was a little bit nervous when he break when he broke eye contact with dr phil it went down into his left when he was nervous and uncomfortable so just make a note of that scott yeah i did the duchene markers and everything last time i shot my mouth off so greg what do you got oh yeah so it's chase i think one thing that you you started to mention you're going to go back and watch videos that we've said before when a guy says this we are suspicious because it's not in their baseline there's a deviation this guy's got a baseline i think we lost chase no you're you're glitching a little chase but um i'll go back so chase i think you can't say enough that we in past times have said this means that i would dig in further because it something changes in their baseline but if you ask a question hey do you remember and i said yeah i remember that that that's an answer that's not a way to hide time a way to stall so he's not stalling here he's just trying to answer what i see here is confusion i see hey i don't know i was nine and i see him trying to answer what dr phil's asking but just not having the capability so when he says under an hour he's looking to see do you is that good enough and that left down what you're calling at five o'clock is that internal voice hey how do i answer this question in a way that makes sense i don't look stupid remember he's not just talking to dr phil this guy's talking to us to the entire world first interview he's given so he's keenly aware that he's keenly aware this is going to be a hot topic i do see him walking through he does that adapter piece she woke me up the minute dr phil gives him anything to grasp at because he's confused and doesn't have the information he fills it in so he's like yeah yeah she woke me up he's following that now could that be deception absolutely it could be deception but why would he just be deceptive about that we're seeing a pattern we're seeing a baseline we're seeing a way this guy communicates and that will be important when he's asked the hard questions how long after she came in before the police officer came in it's under an hour so she comes in and were you asleep when she came in did she wake you up she woke me up and she's running around your room saying oh my gosh oh my gosh oh my gosh what else did she say did you know she was looking for john monet i remember saying where's my baby where's my baby ready yep let's move along [Music] [Music] um what do you think you're saying there well i think i mean she's asking me what happened to my sister like well she was killed and she keeps kind of going deeper she's like well like what do you think happens and i'm like you know what happened she was killed and she asked me what do i think and so i guess theorizing what what happened and i think i felt a little awkward talking about it and i think it was just something that i thought everyone knew and so it's like why are you asking me about this again right all right chase what do you got yes it's interesting to watch someone watch their own childhood and let's very quickly touch on his childhood he had something that a psychologist might refer to or would refer to as scatolia where he would rub feces around the house or rub feces on other people's belongings he even did it to jonbenet's candy that she got for christmas one time and scatolia is tied to autism uh there's not a whole lot of research tying that together but there are some academic studies and some good scholarly article articles that tie those two together and it's typically seen as either a cry for help or some form of aggression and i think in his case especially seeing how he did it that it was some form of aggression towards jean bennet and i know that this video has been talked about ad nauseam but i think it's interesting when she's very at the very beginning she's starting to get to the point where she's asking him what do you think happened he's hitting himself in the head with the video game so i don't think we're seeing deception here but i i absolutely think that we're seeing some kind of concealment i think something is being concealed here and one of the reasons i think so is because any of us myself included if we look at a even just a photograph of our younger self even if it was just a few years ago we are seeing the insecurities the struggles the secrets the tiny little sh things we did that we're ashamed of in that human being that nobody else can see when they see that photograph but we are seeing all those things so he is seeing all the knowledge that he has he's seeing the insecurities he's seeing what he's trying to hide we're always trying to hide something everybody wears a mask of some sort when we present ourselves to the world and the video is very revealing but especially to him it's revealing and he sees all those secrets that he he thinks other people can probably see those secrets that that would happen to almost any of us but he uses an increased amount of removal and softening and ambiguous language in this video and i'm just going to cover that really quick i'm going to go through in order the words that he uses specifically in this video he says i think i mean like kinda like like like so i guess theorizing might have i think a little i think it was just like and that one response so i think he's removing certainty so that anything that comes out or any question that dr phil asks that's pointed can still make his statement relevant because he's taken so much certainty out of it so we are seeing some form of concealment here but not a lot of deception scott all right this is uh the video where we see the most movement of his body the whole for an extended period of time his legs are jiggling he's moving his hands around and as you're watching he's going back and forth like this as he jiggles his leg that's all normal but he's getting rid of that that built up stress and tension from watching that video like chase has covered and then at the same time being on tv and then being asked that question so it's a lot of stress is getting rid of we hear that at the very beginning of it we hear him blow out that big breath that before he starts he's he's um very demonstrative when it comes to releasing his stress so that's that's another thing you'll see a lot of times in autistics or you know people on the spectrum is as as well um at the end of course we see that disgust look that he makes because he didn't want to ask that question that's a horrible question especially for a nine-year-old but at that point it had to be asked they have to that's a process you need to go through as part of the protocol of how you handle those situations so that's what i got mark what do you got yeah so uh he takes it very very literally and and he reports on his literal taking of it so what do you think happened the the the question is somewhere in imagination or or looking at options he says i know i know what what happened which is true he doesn't know what what happened or certainly you know it's been reported to him and he has maybe seen a body i'm not sure certainly he's he's potentially you know investigated a bit been at a funeral at this point he knows she she died okay um and then i i i think and he goes back into his area of possibility and imagination but he doesn't know the answer to to how this this happened so he defers to a figure of authority to his father and he goes to the idea of the basement so again he can't answer the the question of like how did this come about but he can answer if he defers to authority where it happened and so he goes to that area there you know essentially he doesn't have the answers to the questions that are being asked here i i would suggest there is then a a big difference between what he knows he says i know and and what he's having to theorize around where he says at the end well probably probably this happened now what i think is is really special about this is we are seeing him doing just like he's doing in the older version of himself taking on the part of the characters in this play so we see him an act going down into the basement you see his body wobble from side to side as he he's i think he's kneeling there but he's still able to go you know somebody took her down the basement okay he takes on the character of that part we don't see him act out how if she was led down or if she was carried down he says it was probably silent and they went down there but there's no idea that he knows how or has an idea of how she went down there he then enacts a knife and then a hammer both of them have done the same he doesn't act out where they're taken from he just he's just got a tool in his hand and for him a knife and a hammer they all work like that now you know we might speculate that if you were part of this situation you might be seeing how he's enacted other stuff he's been there with with torches and been a police officer he's been there in bed later on he's pretty good at acting stuff out he signals to where to his mother where his mother is so he's really good at painting the picture but he can't as a child paint this picture which would make me suspect uh he he doesn't know he doesn't know what happened yeah he has some knowledge that he's got from other people but he personally is not able to see the picture of of how she died and therefore he's not going to act it out now to chase's point uh this whole idea of of of uh you know using feces yes in the animal kingdom it's absolutely used as a territorial signal we still use it in the in our human world we will often talk uh when we're when we're talking about violence uh we'll use words aligned with feces you know we're gonna throw all that we can at that okay this idea of throwing it distributing it it marks out territory so yes there could be some issues of territorial aggression that go on and and and i think that's why later on uh in this episode you'll you'll see him not quite be able to answer questions around doing harm not quite being able to be certain about has he not done any harm and we'll come to that uh later on but i think uh scott are we over to you scott what you got oh sorry greg where you going yeah so i always say every one of us is nothing but a two-year-old covered in scars and hair that's what we are we're just an onion we keep growing and growing and growing we get the opportunity to see him as a child and his communication style is not dramatically different than now it's evading eye contact not looking you dead in the eyes when he's talking he's uncomfortable and i'm gonna say this to everybody watching you if your childhood were dredged up and every stupid thing you ever did posted in the newspapers for 20 years and then you see that video what do you think you're going to do you're probably going to feel very uncomfortable watch him and watch him sink back into self he goes away scott you're dead on he barriers and adapts what i call sacred spaces the holiest it's the safest place we can go i make myself a place comfortable and then i adapt you know as we always say adapters are a way to make the uncomfortable comfortable it's a way to release nervous energy and it's a way to take control of the unknown so you see discomfort and it culminates in that disgust you see when she asks the question but he's adapting he's moving his feet and legs i think there's some regression and maybe even some arrested development guys i'm no psychologist but this guy you see him when he gets into this start to go back into a different place and even his cadence and shift he shifts away he responds to dr phil i think it's a bad place and i think he's put back in that space from that time now none of that means he's guilty or innocent of anything i would if i were in an interrogation with this guy i would then take advantage of it and i'd lower my voice and start asking him a few questions about tell me about that day he doesn't remember any of this he doesn't remember all of the details about you know when it happened what times one thing one other good indicator for me a nine-year-old doesn't talk about people silently moving he's heard this from a parent from someone who has used those words guilty knowledge we use in in interrogation all the time when a person has a word they shouldn't have a nine-year-old using a word like silently now of course he's evolved it to now but that's when he's there and he's a child saying silently that's not nine-year-olds speak typically hey they're really quiet and they did this or whatever but that's not the details that a kid thinks up typically so i don't interrogate kids but i've been around a few of them was one i can remember being a little kid you don't think quite in the same way you do as an adult and chase you we talk about it all the time every time you open you edit so you can see him sitting there getting very discomfort a lot of discomfort blocking himself in going back into a state where he was there and he's seen all that horrible stuff so is he uncomfortable yeah would i poke into him yeah because i want to know why he responds the way he does but we're seeing his baseline as a child mirrored in his adult behavior that's all i got what do you think [Music] um [Music] um what do you think you're saying there well i think i mean she's asking me what happened to my sister like well she was killed and she keeps kind of going deeper she's like well like what do you think happens and i'm like you know what happened she was killed and she asked me what do i think and so i guess theorizing what but it happened i think i felt a little awkward talking about it and i think it was just something that i thought everyone knew and so it's like why are you asking me about this again right okay be good yep all right there still are people that believe that you killed your sister what what do you say about that look at the evidence or the lack thereof part of their rationale these people say you are the only one that your parents would go to the links that they went to to cover up everything that happened they're talking about fabricating this ransom note they're talking about if she was strangled then causing the head injury all of this cover-up was all done to protect you because they didn't want to lose two children that's their theory i don't know to say that because i know that's not what happened there's there's been a few people that said that's not even physically possible for a nine-year-old to do that like you won't find any evidence because that's not what happened i know i didn't do it okay greg what do you got yeah so he starts off by accessing emotion when dr phil starts this this path this is an attack of sorts now dr phil's not a jerk he's just saying but it is an attack of sorts there's an interesting thing that happens in his face when he realizes an attack is his face goes slack it's a deviation baseline that's his stress face you see it really just go slack you don't see the smile anymore he uses a he does he does declare his innocence i didn't do it and he does a contracted there's not the non-contracted denial he has a smile of disgust or distaste mark you'll call it a bitter taste that smile of disgust or distaste and if you watch him he is very strong to say i didn't do it we also always will bring up when they say evidence but he further clarifies to say you're not going to find any evidence because i didn't do it and then his body language says what else you mean to say everything you could possibly do both shoulders up palms up face up all that is congruent messaging to say i got nothing this is it that's what i got scott what do you got all right well this is this is where i i really started feeling sorry for this kid because he is he's talking to dr phil he's resting on his hand and and just that when he starts asking that question when he says a lot of people believe that his hand goes down and briefly just before it cuts away you'll see uh contempt because he has contempt for those people that are that are saying that about him and um you gotta pay really close attention to that maybe i'll put up i'll put that in so you can see a little bit better and when he says yeah that's when we say see full-on contempt in his face at that point and contempt is the expression with just one side of your it's the only asymmetric facial expression so when one side of your face goes up now looks like both sides are going up but take a look because one side goes up just a little bit more than the other on that so we're seeing full-on contempt at that point now there's going to be some people out there there'll be a person out there that says oh i i we see him turtling we see his head go down as he's talked about that and that's what you see when someone's uh in the middle of being deceptive or if they're getting ready to steal something or they've done something wrong to see that head go down that's not what we're seeing we're not seeing turtling there what we're seeing is almost a recoil we've seen his head go back you know he's not going back is his head isn't going down to guard his to guard his neck his chin isn't going down we're seeing him almost recoil it's very slow but you really got to pay attention and you'll see it it's one of those things i always look for some reason this is jumping out to me um so it's not turtling it's he's just recalling at that point chase what do you got yep you guys have covered uh pretty much everything but i think it's important to see he also when he that question starts getting asked we have exit search he his eyes go to 8 o'clock and i the layout of that room is pretty clear the exit's over right where his eyes are looking and that's that's what that deviation from his normal eye movement is and his eyes when he's being asked the question and right before he starts to respond move to his normal position for his baseline for every video i could find of him which is three o'clock for you looking at it which is three o'clock and everything there is synchronous there's not asynchronous or non-synchronous behavior with body movement and the words that he's saying mark yeah i totally agree um yeah it's such a shame that that that shoulder drop there because he's doing his best to hold himself up and somehow his wrist gives out or you know the tension there just gives way at that point where this as greg says this attack uh comes um i think i think he suffers a little bit in in the public's mind from the same thing that his mum suffers from which he's not that likable he's not easily likable and especially at that point of look at the evidence or lack of lack of the lack thereof it comes out with a strength of voice and a vocabulary that we haven't really heard from him before i think he's heard that from somebody else i think that's him becoming a character reciting something because it's such a different pitch and i think it hits us so strong it's so confident that as a public i think we push back on that because we don't like his confidence at that point that there is zero evidence for him uh being involved uh at the level that people kind of think he is or maybe even hope he is i'm not quite sure um so we like his mom he's just not likable um i think you know the the other thing i want to point out is there's no resume statements from him there's nothing of like you know i wouldn't i'm not that kind of person you know i'm not that kind of brother there's nothing like that he tries to defer to things that might have authority around that even you know stuff of like well there are several people who said just a nine-year-old won't be able to do that we know everybody knows that nine year olds can do all kinds of stuff but he's now kind of grasping at straws of where can he find some kind of status figure to to back him up around this i think by the end of it uh you know we do see that double shoulder shrug and he's truly resigned to the idea of i've got nothing more to give you i don't know what to do or what to say anymore it's utter resignation uh at the end uh defeat at the end i would say that's all i got on this one yeah a couple of things guys watch the video again and watch the still images of him at the funeral net he's got that smile face it's just the way he looks it's just part of it the other thing is mark you started to hit it we look for things like holy ground as god is my witness we look at this list of things that he's not doing and we're looking for clusters of behavior so yeah he's got some does he have some weird behaviors yeah there's he's odd in his behavior that doesn't make him a killer that's the piece that we have to get our heads around yeah there still are people that believe that you killed your sister what what do you say about that look at the evidence or the lack thereof part of their rationale these people say you are the only one that your parents would go to the links that they went to to cover up everything that happened they're talking about fabricating this ransom note they're talking about if she was strangled then causing the head injury all of this cover-up was all done to protect you because they didn't want to lose two children that's their theory i don't know to say that because i know that's not what happened there's there's been a few people that said that's not even physically possible for a nine-year-old to do that like you won't find any evidence because that's not what happened i know i didn't do it we good yeah all right let's clear this up once and for all did you do anything to harm your sister jonbenet no did you murder your sister jonbenet no all right mark what do you got yeah so the first question there is is kind of i don't know whether there's such a thing but for me a reverse barnum statement you know did you do anything to harm your your sister well of course you did of course you did i mean i've done things that have harmed my brothers and sisters uh anybody who says i've never done anything that's ever harmed a siblings like of course you have your brothers and sisters like it happens you know all the time even if you didn't think it happens they think it happened so he's being put in a bit of a corner around this one but still it's a relatively strong denial there but when you put it against the denial of did you um did you murder your sister i think i'm not sure whether that's the exact question or not he we then get alongside that the full shake of the head that goes alongside that so i think what we're seeing there is the competition of one question not you can't really answer the first question in any truthful way i believe the second one uh is is way more forceful um so i think there's a there's you know that's interesting to look at i think what people worry about is the look and the maybe little bite of the lip that we get tiny and the tiny look afterwards after that that's him just seeking approval from the person of status he wants the person to status to go okay fine i you know will will take that from you it's a it is a look for approval from status not a look from buying my my story on both counts on that one um and again you know that's that's that's the problem that glance for approval at the end is going to easily look like something a furtive glance which has something devious behind it i do not believe it's furtive i do not believe it's devious it comes from a place of just a kid wanting to get it right and who's on the on the brink of you know they've got nothing more to give um greg what do you got yeah so much like what you saw there's a piece that you could say they're fading facts because he's quiet no i wish doc i wish you would have said why should i believe you didn't harm or kill your sister that would give us more narrative but i think he already by this point realizes this guy's not that guy he doesn't chase you early when a person gives you information voluntarily and you ask enough questions along the way you know where he's going to stop you probably can't get any more out of him than that these yes no questions or interrogations speak leading questions eliminate his ability to go much further i see distaste and i see apprehension when he bites his lip as he's trying to figure out how dr phil perceives him he purses his lips a little bit as he's thinking and now i'll give you my guess my guess is this guy's somewhere back in his head he's he's got some either regression or arrested development or something going on i can't say he's on the spectrum or where or what but there's certainly body language that makes me think of not adult behavior in many cases that he's been around a different world than i have i don't know where he got to this point but i don't see i don't see him trying to hide hey i did it and i'm trying to i don't see it i don't see it at all now i'll also say this i say this a million times here's a million one i can see certain things in body language that make me want to go ask the next question and get the next piece of information i can't read his mind he could be a genius who is hiding everything but what i see based on body language are things that would make me ask him that next question and probably get him to just kind of start to come and bolt it a little bit that's that's it that's what i see chase what do you see yeah i think a lot of body language pundits i think mark calls them well well think it's it's like the guy with the hammer thinks everything's a nail so we tend to think that this is like the end-all be-all of body language but not at all this is a very small tool in a lot of our tool kit here that is questioning techniques are 10 times more effective at detecting or getting to the truth than body language it's my opinion yep and if you're ever asking somebody if they did a crime it's 10 times better to say something softer than kill so it's always better so if you're asking an interrogation question or you're trying to see if someone did something it's it's you're more likely to get a response if you say hurt or injure or something like that he did actually attack his sister with a golf club before this as far as what i read online we're not the forensics panel it didn't happen in the video so i'm not going to go into it so we we've all hurt siblings especially if you're an older brother i am an older brother and uh i've hurt my sister many times pushed her down done all kinds of stuff but he says no there and he's moving but when he realizes this tough question is coming his eyes immediately this is the first thing you're gonna see when the video starts back up again go back to that seven eight o'clock exit search scan to look towards the exit because he knows this question is going to come i'm sure he knows that he's been told we're going to ask you some tough questions and there's some severe discomfort shifting between his five and seven o'clock positions and then back to dr phil here and his head shaking no and saying no don't occur simultaneously so they're asynchronous but that is only one or two indicators here of high stress remember there's no body language for deception there is no body language for deception i don't care what you see on linkedin it doesn't exist chase i touch my nose i've got a big nose so scott's a big liar oh yeah i'd be the biggest liar i hit my backs and just when i'm talking i move my hands my illustrators hit my nose too sorry to step in but i had to i mean there is one interesting thing that i found in here i had to go get a 1080p version of this video and blow it up and then i had to download a program that's made for radiologists to perform measurements on things his pupils dilate one millimeter uh when he's making the denial and if you if you look real good and if our if our video is pretty high quality when when scott puts it up there you'll be able to see it and you can actually see it just dragging your your mouse back and forth doesn't mean deception everything else points to baseline deviations of stress and not baseline deviations towards deception and there's not a big enough cluster here for him to even reach the threshold of a score of 11 on the behavioral table of elements scott cool all right you guys have covered just about everything but something i found interesting in this is he's got his hands together he's got him clasped together there between his legs and his sweaters pulled down to cover his wrists as we all know when someone feels good about being around someone especially uh females when they see men they're trying to impress or or want to get along with better you'll see their their wrists exposed a little bit more they'll show their wrists more in this case they're covered up all the way down to where his thumb starts almost so it may be that he's cold maybe that he feels unsafe and maybe where he's just over everything so far is just trying to get as hard as you can be comfortable because these things take a long time when you're talking about those things especially in a tv interview and going back to his one-word answers and like greg was saying he does say uh when he answers it's that one word it's it's fairly quiet but when you ask someone like that i'm gonna i'm gonna go ahead and say i think he's on the on the autistic spectrum the autism spectrum they'll you ask them a yes or no question they'll give you a yes or no answer and that's what you're supposed to give those anyway but that's what he does you give you give him a question like that and that's what he is and i think dr phil knew that i think that's why he lobbed that at him like that sort of prepped him for it and the kid saw it coming worked his way up to it um and that that's fine when they do that that's fine but he hates that question that's another reason that that gets quiet as well so you guys have covered everything on that let's clear this up once and for all did you do anything to harm your sister john bernay no did you murder your sister john bonay no okay so uh why don't we throw it around the room now let's give our our overview of what we think happened um or what we saw today we'll compare the truth to deception and let's say what we happened in the case everybody's always got their their opinions on it let's do that as well greg you want to go first yeah as far as what happened in the case i have no clue i'm going to tell you this when we watch patsy ramsey i initially you know from things i'd seen in the past thought well maybe she did something and there's certainly places where she appears to have some kind of guilty knowledge is that because she's guilty of doing a crime or she feels guilty because something happened she didn't repair when i don't know i don't know what happened in this case but based on what i see in this video and when i watched him from a distance without really paying attention i thought that's a creepy guy but when you watch it and you go see it now i'm seeing congruent messaging not strong messaging because it's not a strong person who's saying no i didn't do this and and and he's not trying to justify i think he's been doing this for 20 plus years to people that know him or people he runs into guarantee you when somebody meets us at a party or we walk out to get hot chicken and they see us they want to talk about the body language and behave and they would talk about about behavior panel when you're burke guess what they want to talk about the only thing they want to talk about it's not about the news not about the weather it's about did you kill or do you know who killed so all i see here is a guy that i think is in some kind of regression i think he has been sheltered in a weird way and didn't develop the same way you developed or i developed so that's what i see i see confusing for average people certainly but that's it mark yeah yeah um yeah so i only see one area that i think he's not telling us everything which is on the question of did you ever hurt your sister and i i only say that just because of course he did like it's just natural that that happens that's just the law of averages says you're gonna hurt a sibling at some point so so that's the only thing that i see is as being uh you know hidden or deceitful the rest of it i think he's being uh relatively kind of brutally honest and and factual around it and i think we see somebody who is trying to dredge up this nine-year-old uh um history and it not quite making sense and time getting compressed and it being quite confusing and about now kind of at the end of their lifespan of being able to tolerate and and keep that smile going around all of this you know to be in this pageant for for everybody he's getting trotted out all the time going okay walk up and down the platform and and prove yourself and show yourself to the world and i think he's you know he's got tired of it uh about about now um yeah that's that's all i got for you on that uh chase what do you think i think we're seeing an outlier here i don't think there's a whole lot of deception but i do think there are some secrets which are different things and i think that there's stuff being withheld and there is a potential for some guilty knowledge here not just not just the mom but i think i think there is guilty knowledge in in him that's all i'll say scott all right here's what i think happened well i think i think we're seeing a lot of i think he's being honest and a lot of that i agree with the chase i think there's some guilty knowledge there but i think that comes with trying to keep the information about his family about his mom and dad in those situations i think those kind of people are those kind of people but i mean they try to keep anything about their family to themselves they try to keep it all quiet so not that he's aware thinking i've got to keep it all quiet but i think he's trying to keep some extra information that he may know to himself whether that's that's somebody in the family had to do with it or not i have no worthy idea but here's what i think happened i don't think he did it and i think somebody else did it and i think the mom and dad thought he did it at the beginning that's when they conjured all the stuff up with the uh the the ransom note and all these things right then they find out he didn't do it they realize oh no somebody did come in they see all this other evidence that shows that somebody else did it but they're committed and it's too late to go back that's where the ego comes in because they're going to say well we did it because of this that's because at that point you're full of it they're going to say well maybe you did do it so i think that's what they did they got into it got too sticky for them when they realized what happened and they had to stick with that with that story i think that's what happened so it may sound crazy but it's the only logical explanation explanation i can come up with uh with all that that's given and all that all right so if you like what we're doing please subscribe and we'd really appreciate it and hit that like button we're trying to get as many likes as we can as well all right um we good well actually i want to say one more thing i want to say one more thing about you were talking about like the sleeves like this have you noticed in every hallmark film that you watch the girl who's who's having problems you know getting the love of her life will always show her vulnerability by bringing the sleeves down and then and then having a warm drink i've never seen a hallmark movie don't lie to us greg i watch them every saturday i cuddle up with my let me tell you my wrists covered i'll walk through the room and amber has one of those on and the next thing you know i'm like what does he do how's he working what is she doing watching next thing i know i'm sitting down watching this dang hallmark movie and it's they're fascinating once you get into it it's great and it's these actors who who are you know who they are a lot of times you don't know what their names are or what they've been you just know you know them it's that kind of thing but she'll be watching that so before you know it try it next time william's watching when you're taking it tina doesn't watch it either so you know walking through winnie cooper from the wonder years is okay yeah we're on the same page yeah okay okay then there's the good witch i think that's one of them that's my favorite the one i'm addicted to when i walk through i have to stop and go so what's going on with so-and-so they have this place called grey house and they'll go to great and they call it grey house it's where they all live you know or it's where that's where the witch lives so but i can't once i get it man once it snags me i'm in i shouldn't have said all that should i have now we know yeah we don't it's not good all right is

Channel: The Behavior Panel

Views: 182,407

Rating: 4.9349856 out of 5

Keywords: jonbenet ramsey, burke ramsey dr. phil, burke ramsey interview, ramsey, dr phil burke ramsey, burke ramsey interview dr phil, jonbenet, dr. phil, dr phil, jonbenét ramsey, burke ramsey, dr. phil show, unsolved, body language, body language analysis, the behavior panel, jonbenet brother, burke ramsey dr phil, jonbenet ramsey story, dr phil jonbenet, dr. phil full episodes, jonbenet ramsey brother, the case of jonbenet ramsey, jon benet ramsey, patsy ramsey, true crime

Id: Op8pxM-JsZE

Length: 68min 56sec (4136 seconds)

Published: Wed Mar 24 2021

Reddit Comments

[u/DoctrDonna]

I personally love watching these guys, and I find them to be extremely knowledgeable in reading body language. They pick up on so many things most people would miss, and maybe they don’t always read a person exactly right as they are mostly basing it off just one interview, but I do think their opinions can be trusted.

I find this one really interesting. I am 100% RDI, and I often but not always find myself thinking that Burke is involved. Even so, I think people like to pick apart his odd behavior as a sign that he is guilty. I like how this panel illustrates that this isn’t necessarily the case. I also really find Scott’s assessment of what really happened at the very end to be really intriguing and not one that is often or ever stated. But when you think about it, it COULD make a lot of sense... just an interesting watch

[u/Successful_Item3146]

Yeah, this is really interesting. These are dudes with credentials. It makes you sheepish about BDI though! Aw man. Back to the damn drawing board!

I mean I know those of us who trust in kolars theory are looking for confirmation bias results, but I’m a little concerned they are not taking a stronger stance. Is it to avoid being sued? I know I know I’m rejecting it because it doesn’t support Kolars theory. I know. But Maybe if they had analyzed some of the other sections of the interview, bits about his HiTec boots with the compass on them, admitting to being downstairs after lights out, admitting to owning the bat found outside with carpet fibers, discussion of the pineapple, the entire Schuler interview, what DID you find-did you speak those words (not unless someone erased my memory or something) I used to play in the basement all the time so that doesn’t really prove anything. I’m just wondering if this interpretation was done on the soft ball sections on purpose so they don’t have to commit to a RDI/ BDI opinion?

I really have no clue anymore, I feel like the strongest theory is BDI but death was accidental, and I guess then that it would be a game gone wrong involving ropes and inappropriate touch and aggression that escalated, and maybe another known party was there, another kid who they are also protecting? No idea you guys.

His conclusion that the parents thought he did it and reacted that way, but realized he didn’t do it, but couldn’t go back at that point (for legal reasons?) is interesting. It brings to mind someone else being present and Burke being a witness. Man it brings up the Stines and Bluecrab again...

The hardest part is seeing this young man, a spitting image of Patsy, sitting there pretty bravely, it’s just like omg I’m so sorry for what you’ve been through Jesus. But the world still wants to know 25 years later what happened in the basement and it feels like he knows :*(

[u/ennui_94]

None of us will ever really know what happened that night. I think videos like those from actual experts are helpful in keeping some of us from getting too biased in one direction or another.

Also, not related but wow - Burke couldn’t look more like Patsy if he tried.

[u/AnnaN666]

I watched them do one on the McCanns and it was useless. They chose an interview where they had been given the questions beforehand, so you could never take a true reading from it. The panel's result was that they were clearly innocent.

Either they don't do the slightest bit of research into the clips that they're analysing, or something a bit dodgy is going on.

[u/p-sylencing]

This made me so hyper aware of myself. Haha. This is why I’m a physical evidence expert (autopsies) and not a circumstantial or behavioral expert - stuff like this drags me in and I get so into it then I have to remind myself that while they do base a lot of their opinions on behaviors that adhere to the law of averages and spotting the outliers - it IS just (informed - or maybe ‘experienced’ - is a better word) speculation.

[u/mrwonderof]

There seems to be some groupthink going on...as if the idea that these experts can or should cast suspicion on a child becomes too much for them to handle. They start out with examples of deception, then explain them away (spectrum behaviors; pageant mom coached him to be fake; Burke knows something but it's not THAT) then veer away at the end (parents first thought an intruder was Burke).

As if Burke would, throughout his lifetime, willingly take the fall for an intruder. Hard not to think they're just throwing stuff at the wall.

Could be the group's legal self-interest, could be ethical choices (he was just a child), could be they followed the strongest voice for Burke's innocence and were truly swayed. Interesting hour.

[u/Navy_Marsh552]

Can anyone elaborate on the Steins and Bluecrab? I have not come across these names or references before.

[u/ChiOwner]

Observe examined Burke’s body language as well and determined that Burke was mostly being truthful but that he may know who did it.

[u/MAJORMETAL84]

Holy smokes, he looks just like his mother.

"The killer in me is the killer in you, send a smile over to you" - "Disarm" Smashing Pumpkins.