Hello everyone! Today I have a very
special guest, Dr. Carly Lebaron and she is a licensed marriage and family therapist
who specializes in helping, well all types of clients, but specializes in helping people who
experience perfectionism and people pleasing. Thank you so much for joining me today. (Carly) I'm
so happy to be here, thanks for having me. (Emma) Yeah, I'm really excited to uh learn from you
and to share like from your enormous depths of knowledge about people pleasing today so that's
what we're going to talk about is people pleasing. (Carly) it's like one of my favorite topics. (Emma) Yes, good good, and to
everyone, if you liked this content Carly has been working on this incredible course, it's called
Overcoming Perfectionism and People Pleasing Shattering the Porcelain and Becoming the Real
You. Now Carly, what are some of the things that people can expect to learn in this course?
(Carly) I mean everything that we have talked about today is going to be in the course and then
we're going to layer on top of it people who struggle with perfectionism too, because I often
find that perfectionism and people pleasing are sisters and so I'm going to see that a lot in the
people that I treat and so helping them recognize perfectionistic patterns and how to change those
and just learning to get away from those old patterns and become more authentic in themselves
and in their relationships and I'm a real big fan of like specific skills and specific techniques to
use because if I don't give my clients something to go home to practice, they feel really lost and
so I do a lot of that in the course where it's here's something that you can do this week, here's
something I want you to pay attention to, here's a worksheet that I want you to fill out, because
it's in those moments where you're actually experiencing that change and thinking about
it and working on it that you have real long-term change. (Emma) Yeah, I love that about your course, so this
course has over four hours of video and then it's got a workbook full of practical exercises you
can work on, it's got a quiz to figure out like what type of people pleaser you are and it walks
you through like letting go of your mask and becoming more real, more authentic, so I mean this
course is really action-packed and if you guys want to learn more about it the link is in the
description and so you can go check it out. (Emma) Yeah, so and I feel like this topic is really
helpful right now because the holidays are coming, (Carly) Yes. (Emma) some like slightly more complicated family
dynamics maybe, (Carly) Yes, always. (Emma) and it's maybe even a little it may be less complicated for some people
because of covid and maybe more complicated for us? (Carly) That's what I was thinking, I was like well if
you're kind of staying away from each other for the holidays this might be a nice little
reprieve so that you can practice for next year hopefully when things are a little bit more normal. (Emma) Yeah yeah, like we could just like step back
and like think ourselves out a little bit huh. (Carly) For sure. (Emma) And you know I speak this from like
my own personal experience like I'm constantly trying to figure out like how do I
work with my family (Carly) for real, yeah, like how do you very gently take care of all of that boundary
setting and like making sure that you're getting your needs met without alienating people
especially if they're not used to being that way or if they're not used to you being
that way, it's a really tough transition. (Emma) Yeah yeah, and just relationships, they're just
I don't know, they're complicated and (Carly) Always. (Emma) Yeah pretty much, so well let's talk about
people pleasing. How do you know, how do you know if you have a people pleasing problem, how
do you know if you're like a people pleaser? (Carly) That's a really good question. I have some people
that, especially in like the culture that I work in, here in Utah, there's a lot of kind of like
that expectation that you're always supposed to be like really happy and like doing service
for everybody and never feeling resentful and it's very much like stay upbeat, like positive
vibes only and so people think that that's kind of the norm, like 'I'm supposed to be this way' and
'if I'm not that way that I'm selfish' and so I have to work with a lot of my clients at first to
kind of convince them that they're people pleasers because for a lot of them this is something
they've been doing their entire lives and so it's just so normal to them, but we always start
with talking about okay like but how does trying to do all of these things for everybody else
get in the way of like you taking care of you? Are you like breaking promises to other people
at the drop of the hat to make somebody else happy? Do you feel like you're bending over backwards? Are
you developing resentment in your relationships? Because that's a really big sign that you're
like stuck in some people pleasing patterns. A lot of like, oh my gosh, like most
of my clients will come in and tell me 'I feel so overwhelmed by the amount of things that
I have on my plate', 'I'm just so tired all the time', 'I'm so stressed all the time', 'I'm so exhausted all
the time', and it's because they're trying to do too much and they're trying to do too much for too
many people. They're trying to be everything for everyone and it just becomes so exhausting and a
lot of that stems from like 'I feel like I have to be something' right, 'I have to be doing all of these
things to make people happy for them to like me or love me'. So another one of those signs is if you
feel like people are only going to love you if you do things for them, if you act in a certain way or
agree to everything that they say, if you feel like you have to change who you are to get acceptance.
(Emma) Like love is conditional upon me performing in the perfect way and I'm not going to be
loved, which I mean really it leaves people feeling really insecure if you have that
people-pleasing mindset. (Carly) Yeah, and it keeps you on a tightrope. I think that's the imagery that I
find the most with people who struggle with people pleasing is that 'everything that I do has to
be so finely calibrated and so finely tuned, that 'if I make somebody happy like the
relationship is done' or unhappy, that was totally backwards. 'If I make somebody unhappy',
(Emma) I knew what you were saying. (Carly) 'If I say "no", if I say "no", then like that's the destruction of
a relationship' and so it's just this constant rigidity, I always think about it like when you
like strum a guitar string like it's so tightly strung that it just vibrates and I think that's
the emotional feeling that a lot of my people pleasers have, is that there's just this constant
anxious vibration of worry that 'if I'm not on point all the time I'm done, I'm done'. (Emma) Yeah,
are there different types of people pleasers, are there different like you know (Carly) Totally, so
I started noticing that I had different almost like manifestations of people pleasers that were
coming into my office at work and I had the first group of people pleasers is what I call the peppy
people pleaser, because they're like really happy and excited 'oh no it's no trouble and I'm
so happy to do this thing' even if they're not necessarily super happy to be doing that thing, so it presents as really excited and so happy to do this and then I have what I call
the pouty people pleasers, which is more like it's very like resentful, like 'I'm still going to
do everything that I feel like other people want me to do, but I'm not going to be happy about it',
'I'd be like okay, yeah, I'lll do the thing' but then behind the scenes I'm like grumpy old men like (grumble sounds)
You know. (Emma) Just a lot of muttering in the background yeah, (Carly) 100%, and
then I have kind of the people that are in between that, that I call the perplexed people pleasers
and that's where you kind of like vacillate back and forth between being really happy to help
and being really resentful that you're being asked over and over and over to do these things or
bending over backwards. (Emma) When I think about people pleasing as and, it isn't, it's not sustainable, it
just wears you down, but there's a reason, there's a reason people do it right? (Carly) Oh for sure. (Emma) like
some benefits in the short term right? (Carly) Totally, for sure, and I think one of the biggest things
there is that it's a protective mechanism and that's not something we really think about when
we're people pleasing, we think we're like really utopian and we're doing it because it's good and
right and you know, we're putting good things into the world and we might be, but in reality, it
really comes down to 'I'm worried that who I am, at the core of myself, isn't going to be good
enough' and so I have to try to meet other people's expectations of me for them to like me, to avoid
rejection, to just feel good about who I am and the relationships that I have with other people. (Emma) So
what it comes down to, you're saying is like people pleasing is really about a deep core fear
of just not being good enough and putting icing on top of that, that's like 'but if I look nice, then I
don't have to think about it'. (Carly) Yeah, and that's why I use the the analogy of a mask, that you're the
real you underneath whatever face that you put on, but people pleasing as a face that gives you
like enough of a separation between who you are in reality and the interactions that you're
having with other people, that you feel a little bit safer operating under that people-pleasing
version, than under the real, authentic, vulnerable version that might sometimes want to say "no" or
disagree, and that feels uncomfortable if you don't have a lot of experience with it. (Emma) Yeah yeah, so like
switching from people pleasing to something else is gonna be a little bit more uncomfortable
in the short term but maybe more sustainable in the long run, you'll have more
authentic relationships right? (Carly) Yes, and there's so many benefits to that, so many benefits to
shifting over from a people-pleasing perspective to doing something that feels more authentic
because you're not going to wear yourself out. (Emma) Yeah, that makes a lot of sense, it still
still can be kind of hard to do. (Carly) Oh my gosh, it's so hard! I've been trying to do this myself
for like a solid 10 years and there's still times where I'm like 'okay Carly, you have to pull it back
a little bit, because that's not the real you', like just check in, do some self-soothing and speak
authentically from your experience because it feels so safe there, you know so it feels so safe
hiding behind the mask because I don't have to risk if somebody disapproves of me or rejects me,
that it's the real me that they're rejecting, that it's just that nice little mask that I've put
up.(Emma) Yeah yeah, it feels safer right? (Carly) Yeah, it does. (Emma) So okay, so how can people pleasing be damaging
to your self-esteem or to your relationships? (Carly) The first thing that I think of with that is with
self-esteem, it's an evaluation of yourself, but sometimes it's not a really good evaluation
of yourself and with people pleasers you're never really yourself right, you're who you
think everybody else wants you to be and so you can't really develop a healthy
like foundational sense of self-esteem if you don't really know who you are; if you're
constantly changing to be something else or to be someone else or saying things that you might
not really believe or that don't resonate for you. It's really hard even at a level where you do
know those things about yourself but you're almost betraying yourself by being inauthentic
and agreeing when you don't agree or keeping silent when you want to speak up and so it's
really damaging to your self-esteem long-term because you're, like I said, you're betraying
yourself or you're not being authentic to yourself and so it it just feels like 'okay, well I want to
be this way, but I'm not that way and so that's there's something bad about me'. (Emma) Yeah yeah, so on one
level like you're saying like people aren't even sure who they are because they're just putting so
much effort pleasing other people and then on the other level they maybe fear, that because
they're not being authentic, maybe they fear that 'if people really knew who I really was they
wouldn't like me'. (Carly) Exactly. It's so scary to face I think that fear that resonates with
everyone. The 12 years that I've been a therapist, every single client that I've ever seen deep
down is terrified that they're not good enough. I think that's no matter what I treat, whether it's
eating disorders or perfectionism or depression or anxiety or postpartum. There's so many parts of
our lives that are so tied to whether or not we feel like we're good enough and so like we've
talked about people pleasing is another one of those ways that we try to be good enough, when
we don't necessarily feel like that's true for ourselves and that's going to have a huge impact
on the relationships that we have with people. I know a lot of my clients that are people
pleasers struggle in their relationships because they're not being totally honest with their
partners and so their partner loses that trust, because it's like well you know, yesterday you said
this thing and today you're saying this thing and I feel like you're kind of being wishy-washy
or you're not being honest with me and they also feel like they kind of keep other people at
arm's length right, having that mask in between you and your partner makes it really difficult
to ever feel truly connected or vulnerable and vulnerability is the cornerstone to those good,
intimate, deep relationships that are long-lasting. (Emma) Yeah, so if you're people-pleasing, even if
you're doing it in in your head, you're thinking 'oh I'm doing this to be nice, I'm doing this to be sweet,
but then in reality, you're keeping people at arm's length and you can't really feel that sense of
real connection or vulnerability with them right? (Carly) Yes, and I think that's one of the most painful
parts about being a people pleaser is that that's what you want more than anything on the planet is
to have that like deep, resonant, loving connection with friends and with family and with romantic
partners and with kids, I mean, but it's almost impossible to attain that when you keep them
at a distance because you're so worried that they're not going to like what they see underneath
that mask. (Emma) So have you seen people shift? Have you seen people be able to let go of that mask and
let go of that, like you know, people pleasing habitual need and change their lives? (Carly) Yes,
it's seriously one of my favorite things to do in therapy, I really love doing this work because
I get to see people coming in from a place of like being really passive and really people pleasing
and throughout our work in therapy becoming more assertive and learning how to communicate in
healthier ways and to resolve conflict without you know running or hiding or becoming a doormat
and feeling like people take advantage of them and going you know, between months to
years and becoming this person who's empowered and self-respecting and kind to
themselves and their relationships start to improve and they feel like they have so
much more capacity to operate in their world without constantly being just wrecked with
anxiety. (Emma) Yeah yeah, I mean like people pleasing is really connected to anxiety right? (Carly) Yes, it's super
connected, I think that's one of the hardest things about people who struggle with people pleasing
is that there's that constant voice in their head that's like 'oh my gosh, you didn't do that thing
that you were supposed to do', or the thing that I hear the most from my clients is like 'oh I was
talking to somebody and then I went home and I obsessed about every little word that I said for
the next three hours', I'm like that is such a real problem like I've done that before too where it's
like 'oh my gosh, and then I said this thing three years ago and I wonder if they still hate me'.
It's just constant anxiety and I think that's why people pleasing is so unsustainable because we
know that anxiety over time has a huge effect on our physical bodies, on our, you know, cognitions, on
the way that we feel about ourselves and the world and so it's just so hard. I know that's like a
really profound statement, but it is just hard. (Emma) Yeah yeah, so how do you do it? Like how do you
shift? Like what are the steps to going from being like kind of almost addicted to these people
pleasing, this needs for approval or just trying to be nice? Like how do you let go of that and
shift to something more real? Like are there very practical things someone could do? (Carly) Totally, I think
I always start with my clients and just facing some of those fears. What are you worried about is
gonna happen if you don't people please anymore? Because the fears are really what holds us
back from being able to just be more authentic and for a lot of my clients those fears are like
'that people will reject me', 'that I'll lose my relationships', 'that people will figure out that
I'm a fraud or that I'm disgusting or that I'm mean or selfish' or all of these negative things
and so we have to start by working through those fears and I work a lot with cognitive behavioral
therapy and so we work on challenging a lot of our assumptions and some of those core beliefs
and a lot of those things come from a lifetime of messages that have been sent to us whether
really explicitly or really implicitly about who we're supposed to be in order to be good
enough, who we're supposed to be in order for people to approve of us or like us or love us and
so we have to break down a lot of those things first before we can start implementing some of
the other skills that are based in like learning how to be assertive, learning what a boundary is
and how to set a boundary, learning how to say "no" without feeling like you're evil you know. (Emma) Yeah,
like understanding that principle right, that like saying "no" isn't always mean right? (Carly) Yes, but saying "no" is
such an important part of communication and it's such an important part of healthy relationships
because I always think of my clients that are like 'oh but I did the thing and I didn't want
to do the thing and so now I'm kind of mad at that person, but they don't know I'm mad because I
said I wanted to do the thing and I did it anyway' and so we talk about how being able to be honest
with the people in your life and say 'hey, I'm not going to be able to accommodate that' doesn't stand
the risk of absolutely blowing the relationship up unless that relationship is one that's based
on that person using you, that most of the relationships that you want to maintain and
keep in your life, they're going to be okay if you say "no", they're going to be more understanding
than you give them credit for and if at first it's kind of hard for them to make that transition
over time they're going to get used to you being more assertive and embracing your ability to say
"no" because it's a really simple boundary that can be very protective for those relationships.
(Emma) As you say that, like I love the idea of this, I like I feel like you just saying that is helping
me think through a problem I'm having right now because it's like I, there is something I
want to say be more real I'm a little afraid that there will be this like it'll kind of
blow up the relationship for a minute, (Carly) Yes, yes. (Emma) and when you say that, it makes me think well,
I really believe that this other person and I both want a good relationship, that this person is not
like a user or an abuser this person is not a narcissist or anything like that like
but when you say that, it makes me think you know what I think our relationship is like robust
enough that we could survive yeah a little bit of 'kapoof' if I initially take that more assertive or
more real stance and say like 'hey, when you do this, I feel this and I know it's me and I know it's
partly you yeah like this is really how I feel.' (Carly) Yes, it's that weird like dance of the relationship
and this is one of the reasons that people pleasers people please is because they don't
want conflict and for them conflict is like inherently bad right, like conflict is
bad and I want to avoid it as much as possible and I have to remind myself and my clients
and lots of the other people in my life, that conflict is an inherent and important part
of human relationships. We are inherently different from each other and that's such a beautiful
thing and being able to learn how to endure conflict together and resolve conflict together
makes our relationships more rich, it makes you feel safer in your relationships, when people
pleasing it's like the opposite right, like 'I feel safe if there's not conflict', but I promise you,
you're going to feel safer if there is conflict, you work through it, and your relationship is the
same or it's better than it was before because you guys were able to do something hard together. (Emma) Yeah
yeah, and that's I think one of the reasons why relationships are so hard right, they include this
like real kind of gritty, like vulnerability and discomfort if you want a real connection,
you've also got to have like a little bit of conflict because if two real people are in a room
together they're gonna have some disagreements. I mean it doesn't mean like throwing plates at
each other like not that kind of (Carly) No, not like yeah, not violent conflict. (Emma) I'm not advocating
like to stay in a relationship (Carly) No no no no no no no (Emma)not that, but (Carly) like discomfort, and that's the first word
that I come up with when I'm working with people pleasers is we have to get you more used to
being uncomfortable because it's uncomfortable to go and say to somebody that you like and that
you value and that you want to like and value you like 'hey you said this thing and that hurt my
feelings, I need you to not say that thing anymore'. and even if that's such a simple thing to say
verbally it's so terrifying, like I, working with my clients, I'm like okay, what would it be
like if you said this and their eyes get huge...(laughing) and I'm like not today, just a thought exercise and so it's getting used to that idea of like
'I have to say something that's going to be uncomfortable' and one of my favorite
phrases that I've taken in my journey to overcoming people pleasing is to speak
your truth even if your voice shakes because it's gonna be hard and scary and sometimes
I mean like I said, I've been recovering from people pleasing for 10 years and it's still hard
and scary sometimes to stand up for myself and so it's just this like constant struggle to
improve over time until you finally feel just settled enough in yourself that you can do it. (Emma) Yeah,
it takes some like real courage right? (Carly) It does, I think people that try to overcome people pleasing
are some of the most courageous people that I know because it's breaking a lifetime of patterns. (Emma) I
totally agree with that like it is, it's like so like these inner battles against our fear and
our discomfort to be like a little bit more real, a little bit more authentic, it's
like pretty scary, it takes a lot of work but in the end it has some really wonderful
benefits. (Carly) It really does, and I think that's my favorite part of this work, is getting to see
the outcomes that my clients almost like visibly change in front of my eyes from like these almost
like hiding in on themselves personalities to just, like I always think of the word shine, like I get
to start to see my clients really shine from the inside out and embrace who they are and embrace
the complexities of human relationships and empower themselves and feel so much more
self-confident and that, to me, is like the coolest thing on the planet. (Emma) I totally
believe that, I love that and like just listening to hear listening to you say these
things has given me like a little bit more hope that like good that's gonna be like a
really good process, this could be a really beautiful process and help a lot of people so
I think your message is like an awesome one. (Carly) Oh thank you. I really like it, especially
where like I've personally been through this and my life feels so much different and I feel so
much more grounded in myself, I feel like that's the only way I can really describe it you know,
it's just that I'm a person and I'm human and I'm gonna make mistakes and that's okay and
people can love me, not just like in spite of the fact that I'm human and that they can love me
sometimes because of that humanness and I've just noticed as I've gone through this process, both
with my clients and by myself, that the more I give myself permission to be me, the more my clients
give themselves permission to be them, the more everybody else in our lives responds and gets
permission to kind of be a little bit more them. (Emma) is there anything else you want to share?
Like any other things that we missed or um any other last thoughts? (Carly) I would just say like advice for people who
are people pleasers, one of the best things that you can do is to develop a sense of
self-compassion, it's really hard when you have that negative voice that just hangs out in your
head all the time telling you what you should be and what you should do and and it's usually
that critical voice and I think that saying is true, we're our own worst critics and if you
can develop that self-compassionate voice and that self-soothing, then it's going
to make a world of difference for you. (Emma) Yeah, that's, I would agree with that, I would
agree with that and I think we are so often so rough on ourselves, we speak to ourselves in
a way that we wouldn't speak to anyone else. (Carly) Oh yeah. (Emma) and again that's like true opposite of
authenticity right, like we're seeing these things to everyone else and then we're being a jerk to
ourselves, like really this is about healing our relationship with ourselves right, (Carly) Yes, I think
that's so so true that it really comes down to speaking to yourself in the same kinds of ways,
giving yourself the same kinds of compassion and kindness and grace and patience that
you give all the other people in your lives because that's how you develop a sense of love
for yourself, you treat yourself in a loving way. (Emma) Yeah yeah, and if you know, I think a lot of people
don't know how to go from "A" to a to "C" there, like how do I go to being mean to myself to being nice to myself,
what would you tell someone, like how do they practice that, what resources would you recommend
that they look at? (Carly) I really like using what I call the best friend technique and that's where if
I find myself being critical or if my clients find themselves being really critical, we talk
about okay, 'what would your best friend say to you?' or 'if your best friend came to you with this
exact same problem what would you say to them?' and so that shifts the energy just a
little bit away so it's like okay, 'well I forgot to do this thing and I'm like I'm such
an idiot' and it's like okay, but if my best friend came to me and said 'I forgot to do this
thing' you'd be like 'well that's okay, sometimes like you forget stuff and what can you do so that
you don't forget it next time?' and it's just like this loving compassionate exchange and so using
that, and I encourage my clients all the time write it down. Write down like this is what I would
normally say to myself, this is what I would say to my best friend and then just go over that and
see how that feels different when it's this is the mean voice and this is my best friend's voice in
my head or the the voice that I would use for my own best friend and that makes a huge difference
in the way that you feel about the situation. (Emma) Yeah, like if people just try that, like just experiment
with that for a few days I noticed like that like the contrast between how they regularly,
without noticing it, talk to themselves and how they would talk to a friend, it's
great, that's such a like practical hands-on tool. So that's awesome. Okay, well cool, so, if I were
just to summarize you tell me if I've got this right, so recognizing that you're a people pleaser
right, like right like recognizing that you avoid confrontation just trying to always be nice or
always like make people like you or never have any conflict and then recognizing like this has some
benefits in the short term but in the long run it makes you anxious, exhausted, resentful um and like
disconnected from people. (Carly) For sure. (Emma) And then try to like dive into that deep belief that like 'oh
things could be better, things could have, I could be more real, I could have more compassion, I
could have a better relationship with people if I go through some discomfort first. (Carly) Yes, and I think
that's vital, is giving yourself permission to take the the hard road that's going to end up with some
good benefits because my bias is that both roads are hard staying a people pleaser is hard and
painful and overcoming people pleasing can be hard and painful but for me it's totally worth
the work because you come out on the other side finally free and you have more peace of mind and
you have these real connections with other people and so that's the kind of hard that you know I
choose, that's the kind of hard that I encourage my clients to choose because I see the amazing
benefits from it. (Emma) Yeah, like choose your hard right people pleasing is hard, but real relationships
are hard. Choose your hard right?( Carly) Yeah totally. (Emma) and then practice some self-compassion right
speak to yourself (Carly) Yes, always self-compassion. (Emma) Cool, that is such a like handy neat little package,
so thank you so much for taking some time today to share that with us I really appreciate it. (Carly) Of
course, I'm so happy to be here. (Emma) Cool thanks Carly.
