Jodi Arias Interrogation and Interview Body Language Analysis (2021)

it's my light too low i just lowered it a little bit no it's no is mine too bright in the front no not good okay cool we're all about the same scott for you for your angle do we look all about the same brightness that's always an issue for us yeah you could be a little brighter greg okay because you look a little red for some reason like uh tanning bed red no that's from running today oh it was nice it was 64 here today is sunny yeah 64. wow yeah we once uh lost water for around about a month we had to highline from the from the neighbors hose come come out of their hose line into our hose line and feed water from their whole system into our whole house case is involved in roadie work there they've got the mic sir that's not a bad road either that's pretty good yeah all right ready yeah all right here we go i'm scott rouse i'm a body language expert and analyst and i trained law enforcement in the military in interrogation and body language and i created the number one online body language course body language tactics with greg hartley and i got this today chase's new book dude it's really good really good thanks mark i'm mark bowden i'm an expert in human behavior and body language help people all over the world to stand out when trust and gain credibility every time they speak including some of the leaders of the g7 also wrote with tracy thompson truth and lies which is now out today as an audio book chase hi i'm chase hughes i am a behavioral expert did 20 years in the u.s military now i teach intelligence agencies and the general public in persuasion interrogation behavior profiling and influence greg greg hartley i'm a former army interrogator interrogation instructor resistance to interrogation instructor i've written 10 books on body language and behavior and has put together this body language tactics.com course with scott and i also have chase's new book buy it it's good i spend most of my time on wall street and in corporate america awesome all right well please subscribe to our you channel we get a lot of people that come here and then they don't subscribe they show up a lot apparently just tap that little red thing down there that says youtube on it and you'll be subscribed it just takes a second and also we get so many emails from everybody with suggestions and we really appreciate it we read them all and we're going to prove it today because we've been getting so many emails about jodi arias it's unbelievable so the panelists have sent in time after time email after email please do jody jodie aries please so that's what we're gonna do today and remember as we go through this we're switzerland we don't care she's guilty if she's innocent she's already been she's in prison for doing this and has admitted it but we don't care either way we're not into solving a case or anything like that we're just telling you what we see in their body language all right you ready yeah here we go did you kill travis alexander he absolutely did not kill travis alexander i had nothing to do with his murder i didn't harm him in any way all right greg what do you got yeah so chase you always bring up the read strong positive denial she comes out of the gate pretty hard here with a really strong positive denial knowing who she is and i kept guys i covered this for cnn and for for um court tv back when this was in real time knowing who she is i go check her laptop for links to read just because i think she prepared for the for the interview because that's who she is she does kind of a head bobble thing you know in india in indian subcontinent guys in the in the comments below please make us smart about what all those head bubbles and different moves may mean in another culture but in american culture in north american culture even in sub pockets mostly we don't do a lot of that there's a yes or no and i do know that like in gag yes that's no and this is yes so sometimes those are backward but she's not in that culture she is from this part of the world and she's doing that head bobble it makes me wonder what she's exactly saying she's doing something so in our course the the true crime workshop at truecom workshop the truecrimeworkshop.com we talk about five strategies and i'm going to tell you she's got a whole different suit of crazy for each day we're going to see every time she's going to use a different one i didn't think i'd ever see anybody who'd use all five but she does and in this case she's using something we call romancer and that's where i'm really focused on you and everything else doesn't matter we have to look really close to find her body language away from that because she's so focused on this person that even with an increased blink rate she's still got frozen eye contact it's all about you and then she uses our classic and i'm going to leave it at this because i don't steal everybody's thunder she uses our classic i absolutely did not and then she gives that strong positive denial but i absolutely did not no contractions none of that that we won't hear when she's talking normally so that's what i've got let's mark what do you got yeah so the same as you there greg good strong denial right up up there and and so yeah out the gate looks pretty good doesn't it you know great she's very forceful with that um absolutely yeah she has a head shake on that did not kill a head nod now just because she's nodding on did not kill it doesn't mean that she's lying but it's kind of notable it's interesting that she goes very quickly from absolutely to did not it's kind of notable and by the way i don't know i've never watched her before i don't even know anything that she's meant to have done so i'm going through this just going okay i don't know what the hell's happening here but let's let's just see okay um hands are locked down so she's she's um clearly kind of locked herself into a position there that's kind of interesting but the biggest thing that's of interest to me is zero forehead movement in areas that and she's talking about you know absolutely did not kill i would expect something to happen around the eyebrows or around the forehead somewhere around you know i did or didn't kill somebody i would expect something and at this point i've got flasher pancake absolute zero on that so again notable so notable strong denial notable kind of differentiation between nods and shakes and uh locked down and absolutely plain forehead interesting scott what do you got all right well this is this is one of my favorite things to see because in this situation we're seeing we always hear about mirroring where you or if somebody sits that way you try to sit that way too or something similar to it or something so you look a little bit more like that person that helps them connect with you and in this case this is wonderful because we're seeing her not only mirror this guy she's mirroring his personnel his personality as a reporter as as the interviewer so the list as we go through these videos listen to her sentence structure how it matches the person she's talking to watch her hands when she when the person starts counting she starts counting listen to listen to the things she says and the tone of voice she uses is the very same tone of voice that's coming at her she's completely reflecting that person back to them psychopaths do that i don't think she's a psychopath we're dealing with a different personality type here but we're we're seeing somebody who has that down and i don't think she can help it i don't i think she's so used to doing that she just starts doing it because as we go through these videos we'll see she does the same thing to so many people um she's got that blank stare and that's supposed to give the give that that interviewer she's got a blank look as well that feeling of i'm being serious and i understand what you're saying i'm being serious as i say absolutely had nothing to do with it her hair is interesting in this as well because as we go through we see her hair get closer and closer and closer to her face a lot of times girls will pull it out of the way or knock it out of the way or do that number but in this case it's just coming down almost covering her it begins to cover her face we'll see some cases where it gets really close almost cloaking her as she goes through you guys have covered most everything else but it's it's important to listen to her sentence structure as we go through this and and listen to her adjectives how they match or sometimes exactly mirror the adjectives that person uses as she repeats back to them okay chase what do you got let's talk about some truth signals in this this is another thing i agree with scott i think she read the read interrogation manual in that she was comfortable using both kill and murder in the exact same denial i thought it was unusual too had the same notes as mark did well we're talking about her nodding as she's saying nodding during the commission this is maybe a gestural mismatch at best but it's a very good data point because her behavior no matter what her behavior does not have this in her baseline in her other videos or anything she's posted on social media before and in any way i didn't harm him in any way in any way is what's called a qualifier we're adding something on to the end to make the first part make more sense and if you watch this again there's no emotion it is vapid and hollow and empty i think that's interesting to know but biggest of all as i said in our previous videos to you there's a vanishing perpetrator she claims to have seen it and doesn't discuss the perpetrator if you even witnessed the crime especially if you saw it happen that would be the key focus no matter what question somebody asked you you would be describing to them what happened the horrors that you witnessed the person that committed the crime the perpetrator is gone we don't see it here at all that's an incredibly valuable data point that i think points very closely to deception here that's all i got excellent right did you kill travis alexander he absolutely did not kill travis alexander i had nothing to do with his murder i didn't harm him in any way we good yep i witnessed um travis being attacked by two other individuals who i don't know who they were i couldn't pick them out in a police lineup so what happened um they came into his home and attacked us both all right chase what do you got i think pronouns are important especially here there's a book called the secret life of pronouns it's by dr james pinabaker who really digs into this stuff i think he's a psychology professor at the university of texas she says they came into his house and attacked us and i witnessed a person attacking now let's think about the word she's using she's saying i witnessed individuals not people not men not somebody i witnessed individuals this is clinical sterile vapid hollow non-emotional language and instead of talking about what happened she's talking about the evidence i witnessed something happen i witnessed people attacking him not a recalling of what happened in at all which is a failure to answer the question in the first place and all of the words and the way she describes anything here i'll stay away from behavior for this because you guys probably pick up on a lot but everything was distant the language the pronouns the descriptors and even the adjectives that she uses here are distant uh greg yeah so this person and i'm no psychologist i'm not going to tell you i am but from a distance this person looks a hell of a lot like somebody with borderline personality to the extreme to me in my experience with people with borderline personality they're supplicant to you they will kiss up and get really close for what they want from you until they realize that you're not playing their game and then you get the explosion in the other direction because often their emotions are rampant in every direction they're not calm about anything they're passionate about everything and so you end up with this kind of a personality going out of their way to really stuck up to you very supplicant up front and i can feel that now i have to learn to put words to that feeling but that feeling of that person plugging into every receptor i have and trying to make me happy makes me uncomfortable i interrogate a lot of people in my life and those were always bad guys that did that not one person who ever did it turned out to be innocent so you know you got to be careful not to project but we know it later chase you're dead on i witnessed travis being attacked passive voice not i witnessed him not i'd witnessed murder i witnessed people killing him i witnessed this i witnessed by two individuals you ever seen the movie movie idiocracy all the really dumb guys call people individuals particular individuals and that kind of thing it just made me think of that jumped off the plate at me real quick greg if if you can finish a sentence with the words by zombies then it's passive voice yeah i witnessed him being attacked by by zombies great great call out guys that's a good one chase as a tool for you chase gave you a tool that you can use always to look for passive voice but passive voice you don't expect that when a person is killed that you care about she also never says i wasn't one of the people who did it i guess it's implied when she says other but she her eyes blink eight times in 14 seconds when she's talking about this crime she's still in romance or she's still not taking her eyes off you and they're blinking that right there is the kind of stuff you wake up in the middle of the night sweating over if you've it you know if you were there and survive this attack because that kind of constant focus usually i i associate that with a person has some kind of a personality disorder and that ability to constantly suck up right there is just powerful so pay attention to her because you're going to see her doing this the rest of the time we don't see her get angry because the people that do won't forget it guaranteed scott what do you got all right there's no way she could possibly agree with all you guys she could possibly separate herself from this even any further i mean everything is happened over there she's telling everything almost from even though she was involved as a in the third person almost except for eyewitness and as we know people who use cop and lawyer terms have usually spent a lot of time with cops and lawyers and or lawyers so that's why she talk that's one of the reasons she talks like that she has spent an enormous amount of time time with him up to that point there's no emotion in her forehead except when he says what happened then her eyebrows are up and she's saying what happened was that part of it you guys covered most every everything that i that i've got as well yeah but the part that bothered me was that i witnessed it sounds like she's in court what what happened i witnessed whatever or a police report your eyewitness whatever or this happened what'd you do i witnessed this as you write all that stuff down mark what do you got yeah so i just want to show you on my on my notes just as you were saying there scott no forehead still no forehead action happening no description of the attackers uh up here again rings alarm bells with me and then i get further down into it and i think to myself you you couldn't pick them from a line-up well that doesn't mean you couldn't describe something you know tall shorts light in jackets in coats boots i mean something but no i'm not going to describe them at all because i couldn't pick them even in a lineup so that kind of alarms me um oh i witnessed um travis so there's a there's a filler in there there's another filler uh in uh what what happened and then there's an um before that so these fillers are coming in again it alarms me if putting a filler in doesn't mean anybody's being deceitful or i'm just taking you through when i'm looking at something fresh these are the kind of things that i pick up on it's like why'd you have to stall there for a story that could be vivid in your imagination what's the stall about why does the brain have to think at that point there are some very good reasons but i'd want to check out that it's happening for good reason rather than bad reason now here's the the thing that really sticks out for me and and scott when you put the uh the video in make sure you keep the few frames before we get we fade into her because as i was watching that i picked up on those first few frames and a little alarm bell went off in my head when you need to look at that picture so i went back and looked at the picture and what it's fading from is a picture of uh the the woman here holding uh a man's uh with a man and and i assume the man is travis i don't know i but i i assume that and the picture alarmed my unconscious because the hand is behind the neck and the other hand is cupping the chin this is what we call a trophy gesture so a trophy the word trophy comes actually from trophic which means to kind of separate or move hard or or change its direction and and original trophies were literally the heads of the enemy you would slice off the head of the enemy and you would display it and that was a trophy she is holding somebody's head as a trophy the gesture she's making there is really quite odd and not usual you don't normally see number one people being allowing anybody to do that or even anybody doing it even just the touching of the face is a really big gesture but the touching and then holding the back of the neck as well so you have complete control of that it's a pretty big thing so i instantly two videos go into it go there's something up here there's something really up here because that is an interesting gesture to want to deliver and to be captured so that's what i got on that one there we go and another thing just to add to it we're hearing the headline of the story we're not hearing the story we're not hearing what happened we're hearing the headline of what happened that's almost exactly what you read so let me add one last thing because i think this is tying all this together what these people are good at the kind of people who do this you know receptor thing i'm talking about where they're supplicant and then explode is they have a great innate where we may say psychopath doesn't know how to work people and they have to learn they instinctively know how to work people they instinctively because all their emotions are up down all that or broad and deep they fall in love quickly they fall out of love quickly those kinds of things but they perceive what somebody needs quicker than other people and if you watch you'll find that natural tendency to mirror this is some of the best mirroring i can't teach mirroring veterans she does in this in this show we'll point it out as we go through these next few frames cool i witnessed um travis being attacked by two other individuals who i don't know who they were i couldn't pick them out in a police lineup so what happened um they came into his home and attacked us both all right we good yeah i'm not proud that i just left my friend there to be slaughtered at the hands of two other people i'm not proud of that at all you understand you look guilty here i understand that everything all of the evidence against me right now is very compelling all right i'll go first on this one what we're seeing here again is what i talked about the very beginning the guy starts doing this and she starts doing that too when you watch this a second time pay attention to her hands in this we may see some digital flexion but at the same time what we're seeing mostly is her copying what this guy's doing when he starts counting which is i think is a couple of minutes from now and then um her hair again is starting to get a little bit close to her face on that one side um her again her adjectives her descriptors are just right down the same path as his very same thing almost she's still trying to act serious and then who says to be slaughtered this way i i feel bad nobody talks this way it's it's a story and i don't think she rehearses their stories out loud i think this is a bad example or a great example of somebody who doesn't rehearse the story they're getting ready to tell they know what they're going to say but they just think about it all the time and don't say it so mark what do you got yeah so again just so you can see we we don't look at these videos together we do it completely separately and come together just here i've got she almost mirrors his his hand chop now why i say she almost mirrors the hand chop is she stops herself she does one and she's about to do another and then she goes yeah i shouldn't be i shouldn't do that and she she knuckles her hands down again and then her eyes go down just off the side so she can catch them in her peripheral vision to check that they are locked down so at the same time as being potentially naturally good at mirroring i would suggest she also is used to doing this on purpose in order to get very very specific results and she's also very conscious that if she does it too much if she does it too much it might be found out or it might be too overwhelming it might be too obvious so it's quite interesting i think we have a personality here that is able to view their own behavior and watch it from a distance dislocate from it watch it from a distance and have some kind of critical thinking over that at the same time uh okay so that's what i have on that one chase what do you got i think what mark when you're talking about distancing language she's saying at the hands of two other people which is massively massively removed from what's going on not when they were stabbing him when they shot him in the head with the with the gun or any of the other stuff and it's not the attackers the assailants the murderers the men the people who came in the house it's just the people and anytime she says i'm not proud whatever comes after it will be a piece of evidence that's going to make her innocent it's going to be an alibi or a reason that she's evidence or a reason that she's innocent and she's showing a willingness to reveal personal information so this is a mini confession of sorts and on the large scale of this we're might be talking to a guy who's accused of murder and he said look i i did not do anything that you guys are talking about but i have some heroin uh it's in the ashtray of my car it's parked in the parking lot outside i've been meaning to tell somebody i just wanted to come clean and let you know on the lower scale a a woman might be asking her husband hey what's this uh what's this app called tinder on your phone and he and the husband says well i've been meaning to tell you i downloaded a few weeks ago i chatted with a few people i thought it was a business networking app but you know i've been meaning to tell you something about that you know i'm glad you brought that up and that's a mini confession and another thing that we're seeing here is a well-rehearsed behavior and there's some research on this that says they may be hiding true feelings or intent sad lonely or anxious but they know they're being observed and they want to give the impression of that as well and this is called extra face and it is in this book right here i'm still waiting for my copy amazon to deliver i got through come on chase i really i really appreciate you doing that i don't get to talk about those things as often as as i would like to but i'm going to start doing that more at least you could have done with send me one i don't i think you've seen enough of you because look at that on the back no other place to be all right sorry man thanks chase oh yeah i got a better rap yeah so guys just what mark said we don't talk there's mirroring there's her moving her hands starting to mirror and then pausing we see the same things because it's repeatable this is why you know that this is not some kind of voodoo witchcraft tarot card readings because we're looking at it from different angles and all of us are writing down the same things doesn't mean that other people don't see different things but once you study this enough you're going to pay attention she innately knows what somebody needs guarantee you she's gotten away with a whole lot in her life because she knows what to say and when to say it and she's just playing that she does do a little bit of navigation about what to say next is she's looking down and to the right and she's navigating through but i agree with you as well mark she her she locks her eyes over to make sure how she's being perceived only kevin spacey can hold his forehead as still as she can that's the only other person i've ever seen do this he won awards for this she's just fighting for life so i guess that's the reason but amazing concrete forehead no involvement we'll see that change later but we're on the same page same stuff i think we're seeing that kind of personality that will do what it takes to get what it needs and it's the organism it's how she operates that's all i don't think that's that's not botox either no no no no no that's why i was asking uh asking you guys what the year is because i you know i was looking at stats of like how how available botox was what her age is you know would it be would it be quite usual for a woman of her age to have botox in that year no so i watched her like i said i covered this for still i covered this for court tv back when it was real time guys we are scratching the surface on the circus that is jodi arias we're going to give you a bunch of tech a bunch of short clips you we could spend this could be our show it could be the jodi arias as a circus show and we could just go on and on and on and on week after week because there's so much stuff out there she loved the camera she got in front of the camera at every turn she did headstands in the interrogation room sang during her interrogation all kinds of crazy stuff that we're not even going to talk about in detail here today so yeah i i do think she's the reason she didn't rehearse scott is she's smarter than you are so why would she that's true that's true i'm not proud that i just left my friend there to be slaughtered at the hands of two other people i'm not proud of that at all you understand you look guilty here i understand that everything all of the evidence against me right now is very compelling all right we're good yeah you did not shoot travis no i've never even shot a real gun you did not stab him 27 times that's that's heinous i just lit his throat from here to here i can't imagine slitting anyone's throat when's the last time you guys used the word heinous i used it tuesday but that's a red flag all right chase what do you got so the questions are all formed to have single word responses bad idea if you're interviewing anybody your kids a person for job employment open-ended questions are what you mostly want to do but we still need close-in questions always but this is not the time to do it uh she never even got a chance to respond which i think is uh what's the word penis penis it's just absolutely heinous it was a heinous thing here i was going to say egregious agrees and uh the answers are ambiguous and evasive i'll leave it at that because i'm going to go along in the next one so uh scott all right um when she says i never even shot a real gun we hear fading facts when someone's not being honest with you a lot of times what they'll do as anyone we talked about before as they're giving the answer they get quiet toward the end of it not that quiet but you'll hear it fade like that and she backs up just a bit it's really subtle but watch for it at that point no matter what she says every answer she she gives she's got qualifiers for it that's right that's when then heinous comes up at that point she'd never shot a real gun just shoot him never shot a real gun she stabbed him 27 times that that's heinous and then uh did you sled his throat i can't imagine everything has an adapter she has has a qualifier she hasn't she never goes no it wasn't me i didn't do it i didn't do no are you kidding me no i told you no i didn't do never any of that never having to settle her down never goes off nothing and again her hands match in every move every time he counts then she does the very same thing she's just mimicking this guy literally not mirroring but just mimicking what he does she's reflecting not digital flexion she's reflecting his what he's doing back to her at that point all right greg what do you got yeah guys baseline baseline baseline baseline i asked you did you stab this guy 2017. you slit his throat look guys average people if you ask did you slit this guy's throat well no disgust something on your face not no i didn't do that that's heinous or blame the perpetrators because yeah or the perpetrators somebody else is coming for me something is going to go back you're not going to be unemotional talking about stabbing a guy 27 times cut in his throat shooting him looking for a reason why you couldn't have shot him because you've never shot a gun before okay i could say i never shot a gun before either in my life okay we'll figure that out let's see where it happened i can't imagine well she probably doesn't have to imagine she knows what it's like so she can say i can't imagine what it's like no emotion no story only thing she's doing is whatever this guy needs this is one-on-one for her that's all it is and she's doing whatever she feels like he needs and she thinks you hit it earlier scott that newscasters don't get on and do a lot of this they're reading the news now for the facts you know that kind of thing and she's doing that she's mirroring this guy she's being as contained as she can and i when i was a kid you know they would always say watch your p's and q's and that's a very english thing i'm sure you might even know where it comes from but she's watching her p's and q she's sitting on her hands she's paying attention to every piece of body language because she knows somebody's going to be watching this and that somebody is us and whatever she doesn't leak she thinks we don't get but what she doesn't understand is humans have a baseline and humans when we're communicating raise our brow and we move our heads and we show disgust and we have seven universal emotions that everybody can pick up on unless they're somewhere on the spectrum and can't see faces she forgot that she's too smart for her own good in this case and so she's projecting a lot of over-prepared trying to mimic the guy and not delivering a clear message um mark what do you got yeah yeah p's and q's for dyslexics like me those are exactly the same thing the same symbol absolutely mark mark i wish you knew how many times i had to go back into art i went before we published those things i'll look over the headline and the letters are switched on that not making fun of you you're the one with a 51 year old kid but yeah so i do i actually do that a lot you know what there was there was a thing that on the internet on on linkedin the other day um some dyslexics talking about not being able to tell left from right which i have a huge problem with left and right and the amount of people who went well you just got to do that not understanding too many dyslexics like me that's exactly the same symbol it's exactly the same thing there is no difference between the two i don't know which one is an l at all so anyway it's interesting that we're on the hands now because um you know we i've got here you know just as scott was talking about um the descriptors there and the mirroring of the descriptors because you've got a um an interviewer who's going one two however you've got a jody arias who is going one goes for her little finger instead of her index finger now most people that i ever come across when they count when they start to do the descriptor of the list they will do index finger to index finger and they'll count in this way she's going backwards and so look i maybe would need to look at a baseline around this and is that just a little quirk of hers i think it's because this is not a rational list in her head and so her brain is screwing up which way the list should do and it's going backwards for her because also just if you try this yourself it hurts when you do that with your index finger on your little finger so most people won't do that because you push a bit hard and it hurts this is this is more usual um so that was of interest to me and then exactly as other people had there uh the denials all have qualifiers yeah so um real heinous can't even imagine same as everybody else had you know everything now is a little bit of a qualified negotiation so again as i start going as i look at this fresh i'm starting to see a personality here where somebody will start to negotiate the value system or the qualifiers or the qualities of everything that is is said again uh red flags go off in my mind around what kind of person we've probably got here that's all i've got for you you did not shoot travis no i've never even shot a real gun you did not stab him 27 times that's that's heinous i just slit his throat from here to here i can't imagine slitting anyone's throat all right we're good yeah all right no jury is going to convict me why not because i'm innocent and you can mark my words on that one no jury will convict me all right chase what do you got i don't think she believes what she's saying here at all one thing i've noticed and i don't think i've read this in any research is that when someone is very insecure or uncertain is what that word means about what they're saying they will close their mouth immediately when they're done talking the lips will come back together i've never seen research on that so i can't cite anything maybe you guys can her hands are moving outward to protect the body so the body's forming a structure that's harder if just look at it this way if it's harder for a saber-toothed tiger to attack the person you're seeing fear or insecurity vulnerability that kind of thing some kind of a threat is is perceived there and she's repeating the phrase which indicates more uncertainty because she's not repeating it for the reporter she's repeating it for herself to increase her level of confidence in what she's saying there's no emotion here and this is a perfect example for the punishment question and the punishment question basically goes what do you think should happen to the person that did this once we find him of course what do you think should happen to the person and in the read technique we're basically asking the person to determine their own sentence and this is a very nervous time in that person's life when they have to determine what's going to happen to me and i get to choose what's going to happen to me and in a maybe a sexual predator type of case you might say well you know this person is definitely ill definitely an apology to the family some kind of a therapy but not jail time but definitely some kind of an apology to the family and in my personal life uh about five years ago there's a three foot spill of chocolate milk on the white living room rug and i go to ask my two kids who are seven and eight at the time who spilled the milk and both of them denied it so i separated them i said to my son i said did you spill that milk on the road he goes nope i said to my daughter did you spill that milk she said nope then i said to my daughter what should happen to the person that spilled that milk on the road and she said spankings no more xbox no more wi-fi can't access the internet anymore i can't go outside i can't play with my friends nothing now i went to my son and i said what should happen to the person that spilled the chocolate milk out here and he says no more chocolate milk in the living room so it works equally well on adults as it does to kids and that's the punishment question that works on stable children not people who think let me see scott okay um my story that's similar to that one was when we were little we had a furnace in our in our house and the grate would come up it was in the living room it was just this metal thing if you didn't know what it was you really wouldn't pay attention to it and we had these plastic rubber boats and somebody had left one on that thing it had melted through the uh the furnace thing right so my dad comes in and he's like okay well who did this and we're like it wasn't me you know we could just we're perplexed and he said okay let me see your hands so i stick my hands out like that my sister sticks her hands out my brother sticks his hands out starts crying so that's why he busted him [Music] [Laughter] so here we see hard eye contact she's like boom locked in on this guy right and she's doing the same thing should we see her mirroring and and your right chaser her she creates a bigger barrier through using digital flexion on her knee as she comes up you can see her hands clasping on that knee digital flexion and then yeah and all this indicates she's just not sure she's not sure you know how far this is going to go or how how much she should say because i think at this point she's getting the feel that man i'm having to go deep on some of these things because this guy's coming right at her but at the same time he's he's asking those questions and his demeanor in his tone she's just reflecting it right back at him mark what do you got yep uh so what i've got here in my notes is she is boldly defiant at that point which is extraordinary an extraordinary thing of defiance that no jury is going to is going to convict her that's an extreme statement uh to make um uh now as she says because i'm innocent which is a good reply like she may have read that one in a book somewhere like you know that you know that people who are innocent will say because i'm innocent because i didn't do it so that's fantastic but yes she locks her fingers around her legs and specifically on the knees so what i want people to look out for is not only when you know people kind of tuck in to protect themselves from the saber-toothed tiger but also when you see that they are protecting the joints on their body from the saber-tooth tiger because you know a a predator can get into your limbs and other parts of the limb are still going to work but if they get into your joints then the bones that are attached to them neither side works particularly well the the the joint is the weak spot essentially so under stress under pressure you may see people tuck in but also start to protect joints especially the wrists you'll see people protect the the wrist joints the finger joints as well elbow joints you'll start to see them and you'll get that as everybody's been saying scott especially digital flexion into their very different from here to there and here she goes for the knees i'm gonna i'm gonna have to break open my copy over there okay i got you man you go while i go and get my copy sure yeah so guys agreed she does a barrier she does an explosive barrier she pushes her hands out to push you away more importantly nobody does this as a barrier pulls your knees up puts your hands in front of their knees my opinion is she it sees that as some kind of feminizing move and a way for her to kind of turn her torso to him kind of to an oblique again she's romancing and i don't mean romancing in the in the true romantic version of it i mean she is paying close attention to him and trying to plug into what she thinks he needs and i think that is an instinctive thing for her to push her hands forward and then suddenly she's like oh i don't want to look like that and she pulls her hands up you can tell i have kind of a jaundiced opinion of her after watching her do headstands and sing and do all kinds of acrobatics in the interrogation room when she's trying to personalize herself to the other person so i think in her case most of this stuff is just her working the audience she purses her lips a little when she's starting that hole now mark my words the other one scott this is you say this all the time but this is dick dastardly on the train tracks right here mark my words you'll never see her live again oh yeah not the way people go that's not the way people talk typically i don't think i i don't remember the last time i used the words heinous and mark my words in a single day lifetime maybe i don't know that i've ever used those two words to describe a situation so this is more of her romancing she's in she's in romance she's in that pushing one of the five strategies that we think people use to or one of the five strategies that people do use to deceive and to push you away from them so you can't get information just what she's doing again that face is not doing a lot a little bit of lip person and that's it no jury is going to convict me why not because i'm innocent and you can mark my words on that one no jury will convict me all right um did you i have to ask you this did you kill travis absolutely not no i had no part in it mark what do you got yep i had no part in it uh which is which is um you know pretty defiant and pretty clear uh however chin tilts up at that point there is a little touch of potential arrogance there a bit of a sense of i don't think you can touch me so maybe a sense of arrogance there still nothing happening in the forehead here again notable um what i find interesting is we've got sour taste here as well those corners pinch up you get the cheeks coming in that sense of something sour in the mouth a little bit of a swallow as well as she prepares for the question which is you know the question you know did you kill somebody and so there is some preparation and then once she said what she said with that little bit of defiance and arrogance it goes back to sour taste as the lips pull back and the cheeks pull in there so again as a as a you know i i still don't quite know what this is about but as i'm looking at this i'm going this summing up with that statement and that question there uh scott what have you got all right again we have hard hard eye contact and she's again mirroring these people she's reflecting it's not not talking about digital flexion it sounds like it let's say reflecting i was talking about she's reflecting what she's seen off these women now this is the same the same video was made and one of those where she started she's putting her makeup on at the beginning and talking to those women it's three women asking her questions in this in this uh section in this interview she's doing and what she's doing is she's trying to be like all three of those women they're in there they look nice they're they know they're going to be on tv so they're all dressed up and look nice and she's as well her hair is down her face now it's pulled back behind her ear the ear that you can't see i guess her right ear is pulled back so you can't see it so she's still hardcore she's she's juggling three people at the same time and if you were to go if we were to go through that video we'd see her doing that um imitating each one of those women as well um and she gives her stock answer her stock poorly rehearsed answer absolutely not and she's almost she looks scared to death when she's doing that because she she knows that's not true and she's looking right these women who's trying to be like and this is what separates her from those women she's in prison and they're not they're there to talk about her being in prison so that makes her uncomfortable i think that's why we're seeing that look on her face chase what do you got well you guys covered everything i had except for one thing we have another [Music] vanishing perpetrator did you do this no these people did who broke into the home as i witnessed the things that happened in the room that would have been a better answer than what she gave here even though it's horrible but the perpetrator would be key front and center not just that she knew that it happened but that she witnessed the entire event according to her the perpetrator would be the key player in the entire story so no i didn't kill this i i didn't kill this guy i know who did it i watched them do this and they did this and this and it was horrible it was awful i was curled up in a ball or i covered my ears a lot of those kinds of things tend to happen in stories like this greg yeah so a couple of things i can't remember anything about this person that she mentioned earlier what we know is that criminals people who do it for a profession know about redirect so they may wear a big floppy hat or do something odd like that i'm going back to mcdonald whatever and that is a giveaway to allow a person to catch and link onto something that they've then discard watched a case a couple of days ago where a woman was wearing a very distinct dress remember the dress not the woman so that's criminal 101 for organized crime folks and that kind of thing they redirect and then they throw away whatever the prop is at least she would have remembered that and to your point chase and the only reason i'm jumping on that's because of this perpetrator thing she would have said and they were wearing a raincoat when they came in the house or something she would remember something not nothing just remembering nothing is a piece and you would say some other scumbag did this to your point not this when she asked her did you deep swallow the only thing i noticed that we haven't mentioned is a really deep swallow and then she declares in that voice tone and she puts emphasis mark you talk about driving down the emphasis is on no part as that jaw comes up and that draws her lips back for requesting approval that's all i see she's romancing this woman the same way now go back and listen to her voice tone when she's talking to this woman versus that man she is changing her voice tone and her demeanor as she talks to this woman very different personas and you're going to see her playing throughout the reason i said she gets a different crazy suit every day she's going to be different in every one of these things you see her personality is there but it's certainly not consistent the only consistency is she's giving you what you need that's what i got did you i have to ask you this did you kill travis alex absolutely not no i had no part in it cool all right we're good yep yep here we go and had you received since these people told you that they knew where your folks lived and they had all your information had you then or have you ever been threatened by them have they contacted you in any way i believe they have somebody has contacted me when i was still being when i was still in jail in california i received two threats on my life and these i don't know how these notes get passed around jails they're i've never figured out the full system i haven't spent enough time yet but there are ways that notes can get passed between inmates or from the outside to the inside and vice versa without just under the radar of officers and things like that and of course it's it's it's against the rules and it's it's so you're punishable all right i'll go first on this one so this is a case where she can't she can't be that woman she can't turn that one that woman is is out hotting her because she's she's being aggressive but she's being feminine and the strong aggressive feminine woman man there's nothing like that and this girl can't copy that she can't give that back to her she can't reflect that as you're going through this and when she asks her ask her about that she doesn't say uh yes she says i believe that goes into this story i won't say i won't go into the chaff and redirect part because i know greg you're going to jump up in that real big but she looks down like she's a child as she's saying these things she's being so submissive during this because again she's being out haunted by this other by this by this woman because she can't compete there she can't she's met her match when it comes to that um then um then it's all just chaff and redirect most of it everything is she gives a little thing and and the part where she plays like ignorant about i don't know how they pass notes and how it works or whatever but you know i got mine really i mean i don't i can't i don't know why that woman didn't stop and go are you kidding me you got to be kidding me and get up and and got up and left because it's just ridiculous you said they're going to hang you man you better make a deal or something something here and she's and and being really super submissive most of the times just i know i'm going to steal a lot of stuff from you guys so i'm like so i'll stop there greg what do you got yeah so couple things remember i said in the beginning we have these five different strategies that liars use one is stancer one is transfer transfer means i'm doing something to make myself unavailable to you and that can be anything from swaying or going into an emotional state and softening so that i'm off dealing with something else and you can't get through to me she does transfer in here and then in the middle of it she changes directions from transfer to what i call insulator what we call insulator i'm going to throw out so much chaff and so much garbage you can't possibly get through it to me so she does two strategies in one she does transfer and she does insulator now here's my favorite part of the whole thing i believe someone threatened me well hold on last time i was threatened i knew i was threatened and i also find it odd what did they write in a note you better watch it i'm gonna come down there to jail and kill you is that what they wrote because i would ask her what did they write if they said that she's down to her right she's working listen to her voice tone change again listen to her shift gears to be what this woman wants soften herself and then she goes down to the right as she's having some kind of internal conversation likely emotional for her at the moment and she is navigating through the minefield as she changes her cadence to make up details um i'm gonna have to use it in three hours i'm gonna head it i haven't spent enough time in there yet even she knows she's going to jail i mean come on everybody knows but she emphasizes yet and all i could think when i heard it was well you'll get your time don't worry you'll know exactly how this works she's storytelling she's chaffin redirecting she is really paying attention to this person and giving them what they need and that is her in the nutshell chase what do you have yet [Laughter] what i think to scott's point i think this woman's behavior is causing something that's very common in psychology called regression so i think she is defaulting to a regressive or childlike behavior because that's kept her safe in the past anytime we feel threatened we'll we'll either default to training which she doesn't have right now for this or what's kept us safe when we were little younger than the age of 13 when a lot of these scripts and hardcore patterns write themselves into our our brain without us really knowing about it so i think that that regression is a defense mechanism for her in some regard here and we're also seeing another i think this is the second confirmation that we're seeing here that her i home or the place that she usually accesses memories is about nine o'clock if you're looking at at her face there from from our view from your view and there's solid internal dialogue her eyes are going straight down because the interviewer asked an open-ended question and forced her into that position which i think is fantastic and no one's mentioned this yet but she used the word yet and she's kind of maybe a little foreshadowing going on subconsciously for her that i haven't uh i haven't spent enough time here yet but she's using this distance language and things like that and such but i think it's important to notice that she says this is against the rules and this is punishable at the very end of this clip you'll hear her say this is punishable so whoever's doing this i'm gonna i'm gonna say they're really bad because punishable by x y and z which i think was the end of her sentence here at the after the clip ends is what she's been hearing about herself for the last several months so in order to make it severe she's gonna she's gonna say that the other people are subject to the same thing that i am is that everybody nope nope mark mark what do you got so uh yeah so to scott's uh point i've got here she is more flirtatious now and what i mean by flirtatious is she'll get strong eye contact and then she'll look away the eyelids will come down she'll look away and then she'll grab more eye contact and then she'll look away and that kind of she's fishing she's drawing us in she's drawing us in so i started wondering to myself so why is she doing this because things have changed now and my my assumption is that she has something now that the media would like she's now got some kind of new story something that she knows that they will they will tag on to and they might play to her advantage they'll join in with us so she's fishing there but it's very to the points there of innocence and childlike it reminded me and i've written it down here princess diana with martin bashir if you've seen that interview you see diana do now i'm not saying diana is lying at all or the same personality in any way but the same flirtatious tactics are used by flirtatious i mean to get strong strong eye contact and then draw away so that the other person wonders where are you going where are you going you had such good eye contact what's happening what's going on what's going on with you and they get intrigued by you because you're suggesting i've got something valuable in here that you really really want so i think she's playing uh the interviewer quite well at this point the softer tone her voice as well more flirtatious so let me see if i can add a little more value around this idea of yet so you've heard that this idea of well why would she say yet because um well because maybe she realizes she's gonna have more time there but she puts a lot of stress on time i haven't had enough time yet well that suggests that she's saying that she didn't know how the system worked not because she's not smart or she didn't have the knowledge or she's not not intelligent it's because she didn't spend enough time there so she's saying hey i'm really smart i'm really intelligent if i had more time i'd know how things work so at the same time as saying look i just don't know anything about this she also wants to say but i'm really smart i'm really intelligent and what that signals for me is a certain personality type what is the type of person who at the same time is saying i don't know anything about this we'll also have to say but i'm really smart by the way i'm really really clever but i don't know anything about about this just haven't enough time really specific personality type will do that and i'll let you investigate what kind of personality that would be um oh and then takes the moral high ground at the at the end you know it's against the rules so again she's playing with this idea of uh other things other people have done things wrong i can tell when people are doing things wrong and that wasn't the wrong thing that i was any part of so that's what i got around that and had you received since these people told you that they knew where your folks lived and they had all your information had you then or have you ever been threatened by them have they contacted you in any way i believe they have somebody has contacted me when i was still being when i was still in jail in california i received two threats on my life and these i don't know how these notes get passed around jails um they're i've never figured out the full system i haven't spent enough time yet but there are ways that notes can get passed between inmates or from the outside to the inside and vice versa without just under the radar of officers and things like that and of course it's it's it's against the rules and it's it's punishable [Music] tell me about the threats um they were um two threats saying that um on paper on paper and that i need to be careful when i come to arizona because you know just sort of a watch your back kind of thing all right greg what do you got yeah so i think she perceives a threat in this woman in a way she hasn't up to now because watch her chin it's not up ever we haven't seen your chin rise yet in this entire interview and she's giving this woman what she wants to hear and she does that now she's going to romance back to your flirting thing mark she's going back to romance or she's back making hard eye contact and then i'm not going to hit everything i have here but there's internal conversation and then when she asks the question about did you two notes um yeah sort of you know threats no i don't know exactly what did they say i'm gonna come in there and kill you in that jail what did they say exactly i would that's us as interrogators would poke and ask questions to make her story come apart because it's not sustainable and we know that's just not true but she does a great job by getting her to talk she asks open-ended questions and she gives it to her now we're back to the same thing i'm telling you supplicant supplicant supplicant and what i find with this kind of people is they're supplicant until they don't get what they want and then it's explosive and it may not be explosive in this situation because they're mining their p's and q's and they're keenly aware they're in front of other people who are judging them and they're cautious about image and that kind of thing if you don't think she's cautious there's a video of her putting on makeup just before this just before an interview so she's hyper conscious of her image when she's talking these people so let's pay attention to her and think about what she might be like when she does come unbolted because she doesn't get what she's been trying to do with all this little manipulation and plugging in scott what do you got she's had the idea for this story and the concept for this but again she hasn't said it out loud because as she's going through you can tell that she's almost making up the things to put in there and you can tell but the way she's looking around the way she is at this and having said that but the way she isn't looking around too because when she looks down she's thinking we see her thinking about this whole thing as she goes through she's not sure so she's not being very she's not very aggressive with most anything she says but then she seems a little bit more ringed in in here because she's really not sure but at the same time it's just this contradiction of what's happening is what makes the the behavior so odd because she's trying to be forward about yeah these were threats this is what happened and she said she has that little swallow right before she says two threats which again that indicates it denotes that something's up there there's an issue there and the issue is she's lying at that point we know now we didn't know then um then and all this thinking time where she does these little pauses that's supposed to solidify these as facts as she's thinking about through the but it's not she's actually making these things up the brain has always talked about the brain has to do three things before you say a lie it has to pau before you tell a lie it is it pauses and goes wait a minute we gotta think something up and it thinks up the lie and the third thing is it delivers the lie and so that's when you see all that weird behavior and those are the three most important things can can i rebrand your three things yeah i wish you would those three things are a trigger there's a reason you have to lie and this is we talk about this in liar's loop you there's a trigger that forces your life fabricating meaning you've got to go in your head and make this stuff up and then you've got to deconflict before you pitch and that creates stress because now you're thinking oh oh what if i said something earlier or oh oh what if this is recorded or uh oh what if they're doing voice stress and especially if she went out and dug into some read technique and that before she showed up for her interrogation so yeah i mean there's all kinds of reasons she could be scrambling but yep but chase what do you got so we see when we're talking about coming up with the lie the fabrication i think there there could be a slash for rehearsal in that exact same spot so if it's if it's been fabricated a couple hours ago that's the that's the it's making it's i mean we're splitting hairs but in that moment i think what we're seeing a lot with her is some kind of rehearsal where she drew this really broad sketch in her head and said oh i don't need to do any more i'll i'm so smart i'm going to come up with the rest of this crap when we get into the the interview it's not going to be a problem yeah for me chase that means she skipped the conflict and didn't think about those pieces because when you create a lie if you're sane you create the lie and you deconflict it to say well who's going to believe i was miss georgia once well then you've got to figure out how you tie that all together right and she missed that step because she's too smart for that that's right and i think when she gets asked the question there's an immediate shift to internal dialogue that's stronger than any of the other videos that we've seen where her eyes are down and watching they were talking about using that as a charisma tool if you want to see a perfect example of this google jimmy fallon when he had bill clinton on the show talking about using the internet and missing emails and stuff like that when he's recalling these stories don't do it now though wait till the video is over after you subscribe and all that stuff and look this up later jimmy fallon bill clinton take a look at that stuff and the the entire phrasing of this just imagine yourself going through something if it was true it would be a lot less vague and non-descript and when people say and things of that nature if anyone uses that phrase it means i don't know anything else to throw on to this sentence here we're seeing a lot of that type of language here uh mark yeah so let's just check in with the forehead still nothing happening in fact i think the only time i've seen anything happen in the forehead in these videos was in the last one where she raised her eyebrows just slightly on the word time putting some stress on that as well vocally but you know in this one again still nothing happening in the forehead really interesting uh okay i'm just going to talk about the paralanguage the fillers now people often talk about fillers you know um uh and and you know you shouldn't have fillers course you should have fillers it's a normal language fillers are the things that give us time to think also gives the listener time to think there's nothing wrong with fillers there's nothing whether those big words like sort of and you know and it's just uh it's often ways of fitting in you know little bits of language that help somebody understand hey i'm from your location i'm from your group bit like chase has been saying about up talk as well when you hear that kind of thing that's often about fitting in nothing wrong with that if you do that keep doing it if you do fillers keep doing it here's the problem with her fillers she speaks for about let's just say it's around about uh 13 seconds i think and here are all the fillers um um there's a vocal click um uh-huh you know just sort of kind of thing like that's a lot like what can you make out of that um uh uh uh-huh you know just sorta kind of thing like it's nonsense it's it's too much filler so the brain is trying to like just fly and fill space and just do stuff until she can come up with something that she thinks is good and will hold water and she keeps missing and having to come up with another filler and so what i've got here is not confident that she is not confident at all about this statement whether it's she's missed out on the rehearsal part of it or you know it's just not happened or i don't know what but it just stinks of not confidence and there's still even for somebody who is not confident nothing happening in the forehead right now just astonishing i don't think i've ever seen anything you know as bold as that in terms of no forehead movement yeah and i've i've walked down rodeo drive i have not seen that tell me about the threats um they were um two threats saying that um on paper on paper and then i need to be careful when i come to arizona because you know just sort of a watch your back kind of thing we good yeah there we go who gave you those notes there's you don't have to give me name just tell me how the note came to you there's only one way that it came to me could have come to me and it was through um material that comes into our without naming the person and material that comes into our cell and it was folded within this material okay and there's you know usually notes and notes are passed all the time so there was one note folded up with my name on it and they're like oh here jody you got a note and i'm like oh cool and i opened it up and and it just started shaking and it was like oh gosh um and you know everyone's like what did your note say what did your note say and then someone's like what did you not say i said oh just something stupid you know and i just kind of didn't i just ripped it up all right i'll go first on this one um we see that face scratch that's a classic adapter it's one of those things where people are talking they want to they want to push on their face or touch their face and it helps it helps relax and adapters the things we use to get that built up tension or energy and her stress and so she scratches her face and that helps with that then when she we see her eyes widen when she says um without naming the person but as in i you know you know for example if i was to say if we three if we four were in a group and there's somebody that we're talking to and i said i i told and i was telling a story i said one time i was in a situation where uh we started uh the person i was talking to started talking about dandruff and you all would know you i because i think i've told i know i've told greg but i think i've told you guys that story too without me naming that situation you would know that situation if i said uh the person with a dandruff she nods her head and does the same thing so given this trying to give the interview the feeling of you know like it's this really happened you know what i'm talking about you've been there um and then she's trying to look like these facts like these are facts like this actually happened that's why she starts adding all these qualifiers to help prop that thing up and then she uh destroyed describes everything in detail but what's on the note she she talks about people she talks about how you get those things in there she talks about everything but the contents of the note what the note actually says and she's talking about the other people being there for that that's sort of helping solidify her um that this is a fact other people are there i've got all these people to back me up we're not going to talk to any of those people they're in prison you know i'll interview them too no she's just saying that to help add all that to help strengthen her her answer to that thing uh she knows she knows the story is lame and the the lamer it gets the more she tries to prop it up and the more it heads right for the squatter so she she knows she's in trouble at this point chase what do you got well uh pretty similar here we're on top of what you said we're seeing her lips close rapidly immediately after she finishes talking especially in this video so when you watch this video again you'll see those lips she starts talking and right away the lips close again closing the mouth again and we see that she's more expressive here she's more willing to be expressive it's not a story about an alibi per se but we hear her talk about oh i regret tearing that no note up what do we say at the very beginning when she says i regret doing that or i am not proud of in in the the second video third video we watched i'm not proud of that or i regret that an alibi is about to come out of her mouth or some piece of evidence that she's presenting to you so you'll believe the story there and she's describing the experience in the scene in the most general and vague ways possible and i i saw the same eye-opening thing that we would that scott you just mentioned and i think that's an attempt at suggesting some kind of familiarity uh as well and greg yeah so guys this is more of what she does this is a method all of this stuff all that taffy pulling with the eyes where she looks away and looks back up she's trying to get good contact and the minute she knows she's got you now she's going to shift gears watch her she goes from here from doing insulator again spewing information about one of the ways it came to me or could have come to me well hold on is it came or could have come to you that way she's doing language that has no meaning she's distancing from the answer and while she's doing it she's looking away and looking up once the woman starts playing into the questions and asking the questions she wants answered watch what happens she's back now to romancing she's back to making eye contact watch her watch as this thing progresses what she does this is masterful whether it's intentional manipulation or not or whether it's instinctive to the organism don't know but what she's doing i've seen it a million times when you're interrogating somebody and they're trying to get by with something this is the columbo move when you're just going yeah throw them a little bit more line a little bit more line a little bit more line that's what's happening here she's certain that she's getting by and you see her looking for the first time mark her forehead rises just a touch when she illustrates something just a touch and then she touches her face so she's illustrating and adapting she's coming out of that concrete thing she's been doing and you start to notice her now pay attention to her as we leave this one and go into the next one watch what she's doing you're getting to see who she really is i think in that this is not an accident and this is systematic watch it as we play through here uh who's like mark yep so listen i'm glad you guys could stick with it and make some notes on her because i made no notes on her because i just couldn't listen anymore it's just jibber jabber it is just a runaway train now of of just words tumbling over each other so i'm glad you got to analyze that but i did i did um have a look at the interviewer because that's what interest interested me before she throws that question she takes her hair and she puts it back there and this this for me is well actually i'm gonna liken it to to uh greg's uh criminal with the with the big floppy hat on which is like uh don't think i'm about to do some criminal act on you because look at my floppy hat it's it's what we call a a faint or um or a bluff or a distraction move or i know greg often calls it i'm just a girl not saying hey look girls always do that what he's saying is is that it's a great distraction technique that's often used to say don't think i'm about to hit you with something really big because look i'm actually quite good looking and have a look at my hair and then here comes the mallet to the head because what the interviewer does here is to say uh tell me about this but i don't need any names which says well you can't just go yeah i can't really talk about that can't make many names she's already stopped her at the past there and gone you're now gonna have to go into a description and of course off she goes and it's it's almost nonsense so uh you know well done there for for you know listening to that i just couldn't anymore if this were my interview i would have gone right i'm done uh scott you talked to her greg you took chase in you go deal with her for a bit i'm going for a drink because you know i can't handle her anymore yeah that's mine good one all right who gave you those notes there's you don't have to give me name just tell me how the note came to you there's only one way that it came to me could have come to me and it was through material that comes into our without naming the person and material that comes into our cell and it was folded within this material okay and there's you know usually notes and notes are passed all the time so there was one note folded up with my name on it and they're like oh here jody you got a note and i'm like oh cool and i opened it up and and it just started shaking and it was like oh gosh um and you know everyone's like what did your note say what did your note say and then someone's like what do you not say i said oh just something stupid you know and i just kind of didn't i just ripped it up we're good yep yep [Music] you ripped it up yes didn't you think it might be important to save it to show the cops and the detectives in fact i am still being threatened by these two people who allegedly committed this crime yes and and i absolutely regret that these notes came within days of my arrest and i think still that i was just very scared for my family and it's only now that i'm speaking out about this because i just need to have faith that the lord is not going to put them in harm's way because i decided to do obviously a little late but i decided to do the right thing and then tell what i knew because by you know the reason i'm sitting here is because i didn't do the right thing is because i didn't go to the police right away i didn't call 911 right away you know i didn't i didn't go to a neighbor's house mark do you want to go first yeah so the first thing i really really love is is about halfway through the incredulity in the interviewer's eyes is she really going that way is that is this really what's happening right now it's just brilliant it's just genius the other thing i i love in this one is when is when uh aries kind of just goes back in a chair wide eye and goes yes yes like i knew i should have done brilliant brilliant idea i knew i should have done that i knew again just trying to make a connection with her just trying to make a connection and go that is brilliant i should have done that i knew at the time i was thinking the way you're thinking but gosh not quite like you're smart i'm smart i'm not quite as smart as you right now but we're both smart so always trying to play and make those connections um then we get we get these eyes down but she keeps on locking eye contact on the things she really wants that interviewer and the audience to really know which is scared for my family the idea of faith the lord the right thing says it twice again and locks eye contact the right thing police right away so she's now locking eye contact to try and inform us some ideas especially this idea of of a higher power you know and and doing the right thing and the only reason that she's there is because she did the wrong thing but now she's in fear for her family's life because she's doing the right thing and she has faith that god would not punish the repentant and the righteous and that ultimately is what she's trying to do there is to say i am being repentant and righteous now and therefore my faith is in god that he would never punish that and therefore anybody who is you know believing in god or religious in that way you wouldn't punish me either because this is now you know the work of god repentance and righteousness it's extraordinary it's kind of brilliant but again the interviewer quite rightly is there incredulous at the angle that she's taking on this what a what a performance what a performance chase what do you got yeah so i think we're seeing this again she's saying the words and and i regret and what comes right after that came within a few days after my arrest so there's i regret or i'm ashamed of or i'm embarrassed about let me give you some evidence and i'm embarrassed about it but there's some evidence because it has to be true if i'm making some kind of confession of personal uh admission here and opening up to you so this whole thing is evidence management perception management and story management is all we're seeing here and in reality i decided to do the right things a little bit late let's think about this it's the same story she did with calling the police after she encountered the saw these people attack the people attack she didn't call the police right away she got the letter she didn't call the police right away so we're seeing a very similar storyline and if you watch the last one second of the video the last one second you'll see duper's delight the left side of her face tightens up the cheeks raise up and the lower eyelids raise and it is the quickest micro expression i've ever i think i've ever seen analyzing a video i watched it a few times and i had my ipad uh just like three inches from my face trying to watch it but it's there and she fits the sociopath criteria perfectly except for one thing past behavior beyond the age of 15. younger than younger than the age of 15. she hits all of these major indicators from the dsm-5 which is the psychology manual to diagnose a mental disorder past behavior before this incident unless there's something we drastic that we don't know about yet she fits all of that and maybe that shows us a weakness in the dsm in the diagnostic manual for psychology but maybe this thing is some thing that's going to show us that there's something else going on which i think is borderline personality disorder again i'm not making a diagnosis nor am i qualified to do so but i'll leave it at that and greg yeah so here she's closing the loop yes yes yes that yes yes yes in this case i think she has made contact and she thinks this woman is bought into her she's reeling her ends what she thinks now she if she thinks that she clearly cannot read body language because i agree with you mark right there disbelief is all over her face like really this is what you got but she runs down this whole thing and then she does something i could not have imagined possible she went from this chaff and redirect and all this to holy ground now she's become what i call a stance or what we call a stance or in our true crime workshop case it's remember stancer is a person who's going to take a holy ground stance because god is my witness i didn't do that boom boom boom boom she takes holy ground and she comes up so now she's used stancer transfer romancer she's used insulator she hasn't used prancer yet but she'll figure that one out yet i'm sure because she's got lots of strategies up in that head of hers you notice that this is really what i think you're seeing she does an eye block and then makes eye contact again that's the connection she thinks now i've got this woman and again i think she's missing that this woman doesn't believe her story but she believes that she's falling for because worked for her so many times before and what an organist all of us every one of us talking to you and you included are simply a creation of things that have been successful in the past if you get your knuckles wrapped enough times you don't do things unless you are into having your knuckles wrapped but if you are rewarded for something like you get candy every time you do something it just becomes part of your repertoire and it compounds and compounds and compounds and to chase's point sometimes it compounds in very negative ways and into pathologies that maybe you won't even know what all of them are when we talk about borderline personalities those are close to pathologies and those kinds of things so we can't diagnose her but what we can say is i've talked to a lot of people like her in my past and they always try something like this until you get them to the point where they go you lied to me once you you bust them and you tell them something and then you use what they tell you against them they get really really angry usually afterward so that's what i'm seeing here and then uh who's next is scott me yeah so what was so what i'm getting out of this is as she's going along and she's trying as she tries to keep up with these people who interview her she tries to become that person she reflects back she's using the classic yes and and that's what you do in improv no matter what somebody says yes and and you add something to it right out of the gate she says that as part of her as part of her first answer yes and she says yes yes but then yes and and then she starts creating again this story going along y'all covered most just about everything i've got um but then she but then again the classic of falling back on religion like mark was talking about just goes right back in now don't get me wrong i'd like i always say i believe in god we're very tight you know and jesus loves you and i'm his favorite and so as we so as i tell you about this that's that's where i'm sitting on it so she goes as she goes in it's it's the it's the classic i know i did wrong like exactly what you're saying mark i know i did wrong but now i should be forgiven because i i realize my transgression i know what i've done i see what's happened here that's the classic you send and then you pay the penance for for that sin is what's going on she's saying so i'm paying that now because and like it's not going to be any big deal that's why i'm in trouble shoot they're going to figure it out because i just did this over here it's no big deal that's actually what i did not that big a deal when it's actually got a shot getting out of there and we know that now but even then you can see it on her she's she's really not that sure but man she's trying to sell that she's going to get out but that's where we're ending up and she's showing it's the classic i've learned my lesson and i'm not going to do that anymore because i am right and i am a good person i just did this one thing wrong over here so that's what i get yeah i think you guys what you just said ties together nicely because what chase is saying she's trading guilt you know she's trading down she's giving you less something less skillful and then she's trading it off saying look i did make a mistake and and and then giving you that guilt and saying my family doesn't deserve to be punished for this and we'll hear that again later yeah and if if you're at all interested in what greg was talking about for what worked for somebody in the past and this is how all of our habits are formed whether or not you want to go to the gym more often or eat healthier all of those things it happens right around this spot right here in the brain there's a little spot called the nucleus accumbens and the nucleus accumbens is a dopamine memorizer it says i did this before it worked out and i got some dopamine from that so i'm going to force the brain to do that again and it runs dopamine through a channel right here called the ventral tegmental pathway or the ventral tegmental area and that goes back and forth in the limbic system and forces a cycle that even at the age of eight or nine if a behavior worked you're more likely to repeat it even at the age of 55 sitting in an interrogation room you'll do the same thing that worked for you when you were young because of that little spot called the nucleus accumbens if you want to go look it up and it doesn't matter whether that was a bad or a good thing depends on whether you perceived it as a good thing right and that's why we love our phones so much because we get that feeling that searching out finding the thing we keep going back to it and going back to it and go back to it the like thing all that stuff is based on what chase was just talking about it's that if you're into that kind of thing again yeah google that's a fantastic so go like what we're talking about and you'll get a reward yeah hit like you ripped it up yes didn't you think it might be important to save it to show the cops and the detectives in fact i am still being threatened by these two people who allegedly committed this crime yes and um and i absolutely regret that these notes came within days of my arrest and i think still that i was just very scared for my family and it's only now that i'm speaking out about this because i just need to have faith that the lord is not going to put them in harm's way because i decided to do obviously a little late but i decided to do the right thing and then tell what i knew because by you know the reason i'm sitting here is because i didn't do the right thing is because i didn't go to the police right away i didn't call 9-1-1 right away you know i didn't i didn't go to a neighbor's house all right we good yep yeah all right why didn't you apologize to them i did apologize to them you never said i'm sorry i said that i'm sorry that i'll never be able to make up for what i did and that i can never replace their loss but you didn't use the word i'm sorry well then i'm sorry i didn't say that because certainly i am sorry i think in a sense the words i'm sorry just seem meaningless especially since nobody believes what i'm saying anyway you said it right there no one believes a word out of your mouth why do you keep talking well because i know that i'm not just i've lied before that doesn't mean that i'm a liar by definition by character what do you think of this jury it's pretty clear they don't think too much of you i wonder what you think of them um i don't know i feel i feel a little betrayed by them i don't dislike them i just was really hoping that they would see things for what they are and i don't feel that they did to a lot of people they think this switch from i want to die to now i want to live is just another lie from jodi arias well i don't know what that means was i lying when i said i want to die or was i lying when i say please spare my life you know whatever happens i'm just going to take it and deal with it you said today you want to give travis's family closure you know they want you dead so why don't you give them that closure well what do you mean by that why don't i kill myself is that what you're asking no why don't you accept the fate of the death penalty if you know that's what they want if you truly care about their closure well i've caused them a lot of pain i've caused my family a lot of pain and i think that by asking for death i'm only going to cause more pain to my family if you were on that jury and you had heard what they have heard would you kill you i don't believe in capital punishment so the answer would be no for now aries is sticking by that story the jury didn't buy that she's an abused woman who killed in self-defense when alexander lunged at her from his shower so you really are never going to tell the truth about what went down in that bathroom i don't know what you mean by that because i've told the truth okay i didn't know that you were a hater when you came to interview me and that was about as angry as arya scott she stayed composed throughout if not occasionally smug that was kind of long so why don't we just throw it around the room and kind of just discuss it openly while we sell them what we think all right uh mark why don't you start us off yep so um negotiating constantly and negotiating around uh ideas well so here's the main negotiation there um well was was the thing i said the truth a lie was the lie that i said now the truth so here's what society does society makes a decision around what truth and lies are now that doesn't mean society's is correct because you'll go to another society and they'll think the truth that that society has is a lie but everybody who decides to be in one society signs up to a consistent uh idea of the truth and the lies what she does is mess around with that and say my truth might be lies and my lies might be truth and they're going to change second to second so that is what we call anti-social and from that very moment what i would suggest is it's very clear you now have somebody with an antisocial disorder because if you're not prepared to say that something is true and something is a lie and keep it solid enough so others could join in with you on that then you can't be a part of society you don't have a brain that's going to work well it's always going to be an outsider and if you don't if you're not able to see that for yourself you're going to have an antisocial disorder and you're not going to know so the rest of the universe the rest of the world won't work like you work and you might start attacking it in quite an aggressive way so that there that's what i got to say it's it's clear from that anti-social behavioral disorder all right greg what do you think yeah so let's just start with the basic definition of liar because she's not one she told us hold on one second i'll just we'll post this up we'll put it up it's a basic definition and it simply says one who tells lies well i told lies but i'm not a liar what exactly are you and to your point mark she's going to undermine the very foundation of how we define what something is she is a in this alone she's a show horse for liars she is probably the best i've ever seen and i'm going to run through it again stan sir take holy ground stand up and make a hard statement that i support this and i support that i don't believe in the death penalty i'm a good person so never mind it applies to me um transfer you know in this case she breaks eye contact tries to get away for a minute that's her escape it doesn't work she goes to romance or she tries to connect him a little bit that doesn't work she chaffs and redirects and starts puking information with no value and then finally she wraps it all up by using circular logic to take you off of whatever it is and if you don't understand the concept of circular logic if a then b then c then d then e then f if a then a oh wait wait no if b then a or they just change the rules of the conversation as they go and there's no logic to it if you're talking to somebody and you feel like what the hell are we talking about you're probably talking to somebody who's using circular logic and it's a great deceptive technique that a lot of people use she's a show horse for liars in this case for me she she illustrates everything i think of liars chase what do you got yeah we have transfer prancer donner and blitzen and santa i think yeah and all of them are using digital flexion what we're seeing in particular here is that if you watch this video and then just just drag the slider back and watch the other video of her that's different people those are two completely different people there because in this little section one the interviewer is kind of and he's looking at her with contempt he's speaking with contempt [Music] and she's kind of she can't match that but she matches the speed the cadence and tone of what he's saying and she's doing something called i think i call this social lawyering where she's negotiating and and saying well this doesn't mean this unless this so saying if you believe this then you have to believe this other idea and you can hear this little innocence regression but she's still matching she starts all of her answers almost with the word well and then you'll hear the answer and the well is probably something she learned from a relative a teacher but it's also a device to buy some time while you see her eyes go down she's rehearsing what she's going to say scott all right i think what's happening here i don't think she's smart enough to understand this guy's being is is trying to turn the heat up on her and i think she's just answering the questions and being because if he didn't have that look on his face and he didn't have that tone in his voice she would realize what's going on if he came in front and it was like in an attack mode but going back from the first video all she's doing is reflecting back what she's seeing and hearing and that's what she's doing i don't think she's smart enough to realize this guy's trying he's poking our trying to get her to to get po'd so i think that's because when they talk about she says you mean kill myself and it's i'd be like what are you talking about me you want me to kill myself we wouldn't nobody would answer it like that nobody but she's not she's not paying attention with the front part of her brain she's paying attention to the to the reflective she's paying attention to her mirror neurons what she's seeing what's what's she's not paying attention to those obviously but she's all she's doing just reflecting what she's saying and hearing from tone and the way it looks that's that's what i'm seeing here because nothing she really says is valid or has any validity to it whatsoever it's just all whatever she thinks he wants to hear and and you're right chase it's a different person we're looking at a completely entirely different person here it's kind of your hater yeah where it's bizarre and she's a hater she doesn't realize this guy is trying to heat her up that's that's the that's the scary part at that point that shows for me it shows so how smart she isn't even though she thinks i think really i think some of that is her she may realize it but i think it's overlapped by her enjoyment of the attention and and celebrity that she's experiencing with all that makes sense she's still getting what she needs in that remember we're just talking about this that layering she's getting that dopamine reward because she's working whatever it is that she's doing and that channel is getting it she's starting to get hot with him right there when she said i know you're a hater that's her trying to be snarky and she's getting a reward for that i'm guaranteeing you that the guy she allegedly or was convicted of stabbing 20 plus times cutting his throat and shooting him probably saw her wind up a little bit like that before she went absolutely bonkers and went from supplicant to explosive so yeah he was trying to break up with her isn't that right you know what the story is well i mean the story is really complex guys who know the real story do you want to do a four line narrative in in the comments that would be a great place for it because yeah i think she flew somewhere rented a car bought a bunch of gas so you couldn't tell that she was driving across country by credit card records she's all kinds of stuff she did like i heard a really great line from a prosecutor last night she did all the true crime stuff right she just didn't do the crime right right right why didn't you apologize to them i did apologize to them you never said i'm sorry i said that i'm sorry that i'll never be able to make up for what i did and that i can never replace their loss but you didn't use the word i'm sorry well then i'm sorry i didn't say that because certainly i am sorry i think in a sense the words i'm sorry just seem meaningless especially since nobody believes what i'm saying anyway you said it right there no one believes a word out of your mouth why do you keep talking well um because i know that i'm not just i've lied before that doesn't mean that i'm a liar by definition by character what do you think of this jury it's pretty clear they don't think too much of you i wonder what you think of them i don't know i feel i feel a little betrayed by them i don't dislike them i just was really hoping that they would see things for what they are and i don't feel that they did to a lot of people they think this switch from i want to die to now i want to live is just another lie from jodi arias well i don't know what that means was i lying when i said i want to die or was i lying when i say please fear my life you know whatever happens i'm just going to take it and deal with it you said today you want to give travis's family closure you know they want you dead so why don't you give them that closure well what do you mean by that why don't i kill myself is that what you're asking no why don't you accept the fate of the death penalty if you know that's what they want if you truly care about their closure well i've caused them a lot of pain i've caused my family a lot of pain and i think that by asking for death i'm only going to cause more pain to my family if you were on that jury and you had heard what they have heard would you kill you i don't believe in capital punishment so the answer would be no for now aries is sticking by that story the jury didn't buy that she's an abused woman who killed in self-defense when alexander lunged at her from his shower so you really are never going to tell the truth about what went down in that bathroom i don't know what you mean by that because i've told the truth okay i didn't know that you were a hater when you came to interview me and that was about as angry as aria scott she stayed composed throughout if not occasionally smug okay we're good yeah all right i guess that's really all i needed sorry don't roll the tape yet jody how did you know i don't think that was the relationship ever violent um all right chase what do you got i think no matter what if we were to just distill body language down into ridiculous simple levels to where i could write a body language book on a post-it note it would be the body is either closing or opening the bigger the post-it note though but that's it the body's either closing or opening and we can look at it through that lens especially in the beginning if i'm teaching you body language and you're at home you got to interview a babysitter you got to interview somebody who's going to watch your kids or somebody at work the first piece of advice i would give you is to watch if the body is getting closer together or opening back up and we see some of that here but before that we see this this makeup scene where she's doing her makeup and i think that really illustrates some of the personality we're talking about with this personality disorder that she may or may not have of just this addiction to the limelight attention affection and a feeling of some kind of importance and i'll give you one thing to to as just a parting note here that the mask that a person wears is usually the opposite of whatever they're most ashamed of from childhood scott i i this is this is everything we've been talking about everything everybody we've been talking about she's worried about the cameras he's trying to again imitate these people and reflect back uh what she's seeing and hearing i think and you cut you've covered most everything you guys cover most everything it's that's i got nothing after that mark what do you got yeah just nice to see you know those delicate self-soothers there as she hears this question that she doesn't want to answer and then you'll see the the leg moving up and down in a repetitive uh way and again just self soothers there is underneath that uh exterior that she's putting forward which you know has no head movement and and is able to mirror that external world really quite well inside that there's some uh concern and uh and anxiety there uh maybe very specifically around this question but but it's there greg what do you got yeah guys the thing i always tell you if you feel really good in someone's presence and really wonder why when they leave it's because you're being worked she's a beautiful example of how people work you she's looking for think about neurons and receptors or any kind of any kind of enzyme or peptide and how it bonds to something or any kind of plug and receiver and receptacle what she's doing is looking for places and chase i think you're dead on to the thing about you know when you're a kid you're trying to fix all of that stuff from when you're a child what she's doing is trying to find what it is you need and plug into it and she does it instinctively i think i don't think she's sitting there brilliantly going yes yes i don't think that's her i think she just instinctively does now why smarter people may have written many books about why people turn out this way so go read those books and try to figure out why but somewhere in her past there's been this something that caused her survival of organism to learn to be able to do this some of it may be biological some of it may be you know based on on nurture but she is masterful and if you ever want to know if you're being worked watch this if a person can change gears between people they're talking to and become what that person needs you need to be cautious with that person doesn't mean that they're evil or doing anything wrong some people do it as a sales technique or that but a person who does it every turn in their life is a dangerous person not because they're going to do something to you but because they can that's the only reason i mention it pay attention there are plenty of good people who can mold and morph and chameleon like move from people from place to place it's a skill we're taught as interrogators but i would say i taught a lot of interrogators too bad she's a bad person she could have been a great interrogator using those skills and being able to figure out what a person needed to talk and getting to trust but that's how these people work people who are broken have some of the same skills as people who don't and hers are good and instinctive that's what i believe yeah i think she's un unconsciously competent in all of these skills that were that we're talking about well put we'll put okay great great again please subscribe i just hit that little red thing down there and hit like as well and uh it's a little bit longer than usual but there we go there's nothing they can i'll see you guys next time [Music] me is

Channel: The Behavior Panel

Views: 235,100

Rating: 4.9351625 out of 5

Keywords: travis alexander, jodi arias trial, jodi arias interrogation, true crime, jodi arias, trial, arias, true crime documentary, true crime daily, jodi arias interview, body language, body language analysis, crime, jodi arias documentary, jodi arias prison, forensic psychology, jodi arias appeal, remorseless, psychopath, borderline personality disorder, travis alexander family, dateline, news, jodi arias verdict, abc15, robin meade, narcissistic personality disorder, interview, discovery

Id: 5t1jOZTe7iU

Length: 108min 17sec (6497 seconds)

Published: Thu Feb 11 2021