Is Misgendering Violence? | Change My Mind Clips

but the ramifications of saying that we have to acknowledge somebody legally who identifies as a bobcat you understand would be insurmountable the ramifications would be all sorts of new legal identifications that would be required which don't currently exist why the conversation i would love it if you want to sit down afterwards and i would love to sit down and have a continue this conversation well thank you thomas are you done yeah i appreciate it thomas thank you i'm madison i'm co-president of spectrum the lgbt organization on campus great love to talk to you about this great thank you madison my name's steven okay uh i appreciate it uh you sitting down and um what is it that you disagree with so um i think you happen to be you're confused on the idea of gender versus sex i'm confused okay yeah okay so when we say there are only two genders we often confuse the idea of gender and sex is a generalization of xy chromosomes so we assume that our you know xy xx you know combination of chromosomes um so we assume that you know male and female comes from your chromosomes right but uh that's really just the idea that there's only two possibilities of sex right so even within sex itself you know you can be born uh intersex okay means that you're born with sexual characteristics of both what we would consider male and female um and then you have gender and gender is more about a mental state based off of societal norms so within our western society we often discuss gender as being binary meaning that there's two options sure so boy girl man woman however in other societies non-western societies there are more than two options okay can i can i ask you a couple questions there to unpack um i appreciate you taking the time by the way so what was your your name madison madison madison so let's go to the sex concept before gender i think because the idea of gender being different from sex is predicate on the other the idea that sex is um binary that's where you mention that term gender binary so you mentioned intersex okay i'm aware of intersex now of course intersex doesn't necessarily mean that someone is completely between sexes usually they have very identifiable characteristics like a very large clitoris or micro penis in that case it also affects point zero eight people think this is funny it's just true less than point zero eight percent of the population earth but they still exist let me ask you this in human anatomy class uh how many fingers are you taught human beings have uh we're told typically that people have 10 however there are people born with 11. but you're taught 10 right yeah so we don't teach people there are people born with 11 fingers are people born with 12 fingers yeah but we don't completely dismiss that those people exist just because that they're uncommon do we we teach that human beings have 10 fingers i would wager that everyone here has been taught yeah human beings have ten figures of course there are anomalies that's the same way that we treat intersex or these as you said you mentioned chromosomes genetic abnormalities that are very very extreme case so i think what we need to do is remove this extreme case with sex just as we would with how many fingers toes how many kidneys you have how many feet you have there's something that's typical or something that's atypical then you go to gender this is where listen i'm open everyone has said sex is different from gender and gender is not non-binary um so i would like allow you to kind of unpack that for me yeah so uh in western society at least so in our country in our society we bel we tend to think of gender to be on this binary spectrum you don't we're not even really a spectrum just a binary so you have man woman and that's it those are the only two options however gender really is more of a spectrum so it's non-binary there are not just two options okay you have man woman and then everything that doesn't fit into just man and woman is considered non-binary that's an umbrella term and that includes a lot of different categorizations so how many genders are there i can't you can't put a number on the number of genders because everyone uses different words to classify themselves i would disagree i'm not that's where to change my i'm not convinced that anyone can just use any classification for themselves for their gender and certainly not that then we have to compel society to address them this way right i'm sure you can understand that the compelling of language is an issue so what gender do you think you are well i'm a male okay well i think maybe i think you're a woman no legally i'm a male oh it says on my driver's license that i'm a male okay so that's your sex no it's a yeah i'm also a male 1 that's your sense it says on my carry certificate that i'm a male gender some legal documentation say gender what if i say i don't believe you it doesn't matter exactly it doesn't matter if you don't believe me no it doesn't matter because biological gender do you think i am i would assume you're female yeah so you're making assumptions yes i identify as non-binary yeah i don't respectfully it doesn't matter it does matter now let me ask you this what would you say if i what pronouns you use for me it matters how i'm socialized in society it matters my gender expression it matters the way that i'm allowed to express myself it matters what bathroom i use it matters who i'm allowed to live with it affects every aspect of my life so you're saying what pronoun should i use you should use they them pronouns so you saying that what if i don't what if i don't if you don't i would consider that disrespectful and that's actually an act of violence to misgender a trans it's an act of violence that is an act of violence to intentionally misgender someone here we come to the issue and this is why i'm out here um you just said that's an act of violence that means it's an actionable offense that means it's a crime so you believe that for me it's a crime i said it's an act of violence that are not considered crimes or acts of violence okay so you believe it's a non-aggressive act of violence i think that okay when you misgender someone if you were to misgender a trans woman yes uh trans women especially trans women of color are the most are have the highest rate of murder within the lgbt community right so if you were to intentionally misgender a trans woman that could put her at risk of murder you understand that because people think because i don't understand i'm sorry it does show that you're privileged in the situation then yes i believe we're both i think you're extremely privileged in the situation that you don't have to experience that or that you don't have to worry about that or consider that that you don't feel like you need to respect people's pronouns i'm i'm considering this and i'm asking you questions you said these are the pronouns i need to use i said what if i don't you so that's an act of violence yeah i would say i'm trying to act to violence against me okay so that's a crime an act of violence against you is a crime i would consider that i would consider you being disrespecting me as a person and that's not okay and that's not even ethical it doesn't matter if it's legal it's not ethical and i don't know how you can do something that's considered unethical i don't know how you cannot allow me to speak and ask questions based on your own premises please this is we're trying to keep this civil i haven't yelled at you i haven't accused you of anything you're getting very heated you said that's an act of violence that's a crime okay i didn't say that was a crime an act of violence an act of violence against you was a crime so i did not say that you said it as an act of violence against it's an act of violence and i said misgendering anyone's announced yes you said as an act of violence against that person that is in fact a crime so here's my question since we've now decided we don't know the number of genders it's a spectrum it exists there is no set number you've asserted the premise that we are required to use the pronouns that are preferred by the individual we have no idea how many pronouns there are we can never know how many pronouns there are and to not use a proper pronoun you could ask it's an act of violence against them did you ask my pronouns before you sat down no i didn't ask your pronouns because i haven't referred to you with pronouns you didn't ask my pronoun so you just said you can ask yeah you can ask what are your pronouns but you didn't ask what are your pronouns you just talked about me being privileged you understand no one goes around asking pronouns before they speak with people i ask and sort of ask of a restructuring of society i didn't ask you based on a number that's not tangible with gender versus sex is something that is uh incredibly corrosive so i don't ask you how you identify yourself no i don't believe so yes i did i did actually you said you identify as male and that would after the conversation okay well let's let's say that sure so we need to ask pronouns before every person and if we don't use those pronouns how many pronouns are there they're it's the same kind of thing there aren't like i'm sorry would you just so people can see the sign would it be okay if you just step aside for just a second no there's nothing we also have a camera thank you very much there's no limited number of pronouns no i would say the typical ones are she her hers him his her his sorry him he him his and they them theirs those are the typical number of pronouns who usually use three okay so i just want to again the goal is here to change my i'm open to new ideas there's no set space yeah different kind of space around us i think i don't know no one's being accosted here we're just having a conversation there's no question of a costume we're just trying to like bring the conversation so that it's not like a kind of like stage spectacle kind of deal so like we're all in conversation around and we can like engage with your signature sure i appreciate it but it's but it's not though actually it's a conversation between two willing participants right now and i will go other people talking as well though i'm not i don't consent so this is your setup and we're supposed to just follow your rules yes when one is invited and we've gotten the proper permissions and i've said open campus a college campus sure it's an open campus you can do whatever you want you can protest but it doesn't mean that we're i'm going to be engaging in conversation with the crowd what's your name no that's not incorrect but i would but i would love to continue my conversation here so when we talk about gender and sex right this is a very new idea you said in western society it's not a new idea really no it's not so when did when did gender theory start when did gender and sex become separate well they're actually it's not necessarily the idea of gender theory it's the idea that there have been different genders outside of man woman for centuries okay how so yeah uh india in india you know they have their gender native american cultures they have their genders in ancient egypt they had their genders okay you know so that's a very it's a very western idea to say that there are only two genders and that this whole thing is a new idea changing well you know what else is a very western id so it seems to me your your presupposition there correct me if i'm wrong is that because other cultures have done this there's a precedent yeah i don't think that we're hermetically sealed in any way so you do realize um and talk about how very different it was from western culture so antithetical to western culture you named india ancient egypt you know what else we also believe that's antithetical those cultures we're against slavery i'm sorry i'm so i'm really confused as to why you brought slavery let me let me learn about gender i would love to bring it up yeah it's kind of that's kind of my point is because your premise is because it's found in other societies therefore it's okay or it is to be good my point is there are plenty of other practices well i'm trying to get to why i believe it's harmful and you're explaining why you don't but the point is if something was practiced in another society and it was harmful in another society and we agree that it's harmful for example we both agree that slavery was harmful we both agree that maybe cannibalism is harmful you can find these practices in societies my point is it's not a valid argument to simply say it's been found in other societies if that practice is harmful so it comes down to the idea of is it productive or harmful for us to separate the idea of sex and gender on a form like you said the ramifications were that in legalization so that's that's the question so other societies have done harmful things i think we can agree that doesn't necessarily mean that it's i'm sorry it's okay i don't think respecting someone's identity makes that harmful i don't understand i think i don't agree with you comparing gender identity to cannibalism or slavery that seems pretty offensive i know it seems you think a lot of what i've said is offensive you've been set up here from the get-go for it to be offensive and i'm not trying to offend let me re-explain what it is take any practice okay take the practice of neck stretching for example which is not harmful okay it is harmful actually okay well some people don't think it's harmful they don't think it's harmful in these societies take any practice that's relatively benign that we believe to be harmful that they don't believe to be harmful the point is just because another society at one point has practiced it doesn't make it correct can we agree on that i i'm sorry i just i think you're making really false comparisons no i'm not i i do i think can we agree can we agree because listen there are also many societies the other way right who've only ever recognized two genders two sexes but that doesn't mean that's most other genders don't exist that's most so you're implying that those societies were wrong i'm i'm implying that they have their other societal standards right societal standards are based off of a lot of things it's very intersectional what we decide to accept in society so if you're going to say well because it's your society can be really making the same art yeah society can be wrong society was wrong about gay marriage you know i think people are wrong saying that you know gay marriage being gay is unnatural and being gay is a crime not society being wrong but we adapt to modern times and i think that we need but you just compared us to ancient egypt and india as though that was a valid argument for convincing me why this isn't an ancient practice this is still going on sure in other countries this is still good you just said it's not fair to use other i'm just saying societal comparisons fair to come back to slavery no no no no no i'm i'm trying to get to the premise of the argument i'm trying to get to the premise trying to get to the premise of your argument here okay the premise i'm trying to keep this as very respectful as possible you said this has been practiced in other societies for a long time yeah my point is that's not an argument because there have been horrible things maybe benign things maybe semi-harmful things in other societies we would both agree on that so it's not a valid argument to bring slavery back then no one is going to bring slavery exactly so why are you actually of course it still exists in other countries in the middle east and some countries that you've mentioned like i said i just i don't think you're making a fair comparison i think i'm making a very fair i think you're kind of just going on a tangent in order to try my point is it's not it's not an argument it is an argument i think it's an argument okay so i will already i will use your western standards are not necessarily the pinnacle of what we should be doing western societal standards do not mean that we all need to be following the same thing because we're not all western and we don't all follow those beliefs so if a native american person do if it's the law we'll have to follow the law yeah okay so yeah the law is different i think the law is different than a societal a societal standard so legally how is the law different it is the societal standard legally legally yeah yeah yeah but stay within those parameters okay sure so um and other there's other countries that are considered western that would recognize that their gender sure yeah yeah i know that mm-hmm okay so why not so how many genders are there it comes back to if we're going to if we're going to change this statement so we are um sitting here talking about gender yeah so if i were so as a this is a modern theory in the united states right sex and gender were interchangeable no i'm going to finish one sentence here okay i would appreciate that you've been very privileged in speaking over me um i'm not convinced right the job here is for you to sit down and change my mind i think it's very productive for you to do with other people on campus right i don't think this is a way to change somebody's mind i don't think you want your mind changed i i i've had my mind changing your mind well instead of instead of assuming that how about actively trying to change it so my point is you've mentioned that it's non-binary but you haven't given me a number of genders and how we restructure society you've merely pointed out that it's an act of violence to use an improper pronoun see i think that would have you just talked about a societal standard if the societal standard is using the wrong pronoun is an act of violence against somebody i think that's an incredibly dangerous societal standard and it's one that nobody can uphold consistently would we not agree i said i mean intentionally using the wrong gender i mean when you know someone's pronouns you intentionally use the wrong pronouns because you don't agree with them or you don't recognize their identity to be real that's an act of violence because that's purposely disrespecting someone you no one wants to be purposefully disrespected i i believe i understand you do the wrong name all the time how would you feel i would feel very disrespected if you for example came in bombastically and other people interrupting i'd feel very disrespected they can develop that active violence thing like where does that take us if someone uses the offensive pronoun yeah so it's intentionally using the wrong pronoun so if you ask someone their pronouns or they would correct you and say no sorry these are my correct pronouns and you continue to disrespect them you have to understand how much that puts a trans person at risk yeah does that person go to get arrested for using the wrong pronoun or like it's an act of violence active violence i don't and i know that you like to say that an act of violence mean that it's legally a crime it is that's not how i'm defining an act of violence it doesn't matter how you define an act of violence this is the thing we have to have how you define an act of violence no matter how the law defines the act of violence i don't think it does you don't think it matters how the law defines that no i do i'm saying that an act of violence does not have to mean that it's a crime i'm saying that it's an act of violence against another person an unwilling participant is in fact a crime legally there's no way around that can we agree on can we agree on that let's find some common ground can we agree an act of violence against somebody else is a crime and no one should commit it i'm saying no one should commit i'm not going to say that it's necessarily illegal like okay but it is illegal criminal defense i'll allow i'll allow you to assume what you want but it is illegal i would like you to finish your earlier thought but i think this is a very central point to the argument because this is one of the first things that you've said yeah and we haven't found common ground we don't agree on that i do find that the idea of yeah no i'm sorry can i hear what she has to say you can sit down afterwards and we'll have a conversation you know listen i would like to have a conversation with one person and then you can all line up and have a one-on-one conversation but i do i don't consent so i'll have a one-on-one conversation about the microphone so that it's not just you shoving the microphone in here i'm not shoving a microphone on her face i'm simply holding it what you're doing so let her have the microphone but you just said this isn't this is not an equal setup i've paid for this microphone this is my microphone so would you like to would you like to have her take your place i would like to finish my thought that you haven't let me finished yet actually okay do we have a time code we have a time code i believe it's been about over 30 minutes but go ahead yeah so i would like to finish my thought because i it actually hasn't been over 30 minutes it's been less than 30 minutes okay go ahead um so my thought is that you talk about legal ramifications how many genders are there okay so when you have countries that recognize their genders or non-binary gender options you know how they put that on their form non-binary other yeah third gender right how is that complicated well can i tell you how it's problematic how is that problematic it's problematic because you have people who've been sued arrested or put out of business for unknowingly using the improper pronouns and that's the point that i'm making there's been you're referring to a societal standard what can be filled out on a form that's your premise i'm saying there's been a societal standard one that's biologically based for millennia which we've now changed and we're punishing people who don't agree so you may think it's disrespectful for someone to not use the pronouns that you demand i think it's equally respect disrespectful to demand that somebody live in a spectrum that hasn't been agreed to and they don't even understand how what businesses have been put out what who's been put out of business for not using the right pronouns in the uk this happens all the time in canada you know bill clinton specific business yeah both c16 in canada is really important for example we have uh we have comedians who've been put for human rights tribunals for using recognizes of their gender though it can't yeah canada doesn't legally recognize their gender so the law is their legal standard that's their societal standards right so the people who aren't you agreeing with that aren't agreeing with their societal standards right but it's a little standard that flies in the face of biology and my issue that's legal so do you believe that people should be put before human rights tribunals for using the improper gen gender is biology it was until 1948. you know that right uh no i don't agree with you on that i'm sorry okay but when did gender theory start i don't know the your gender theory started i'm sorry i'm not a human encyclopedia okay there's 1948 simone de beauvoir and judith butler these are people by the way when he started it there were still only two genders gender was a grammatical issue usually used to refer to as a noun i'm french canadian so in french we have masculine and feminine right it really is a very new concept and one that is not rooted in any kind of biological precedent to say that there are unlimited genders that's the issue and so when you are jailing people and punishing people for not adhering to an entirely new system that you yourself hasn't that you haven't defined i do think that that's a problem i think saying that somebody using improper pronouns is an act of violence against someone i just disagree i think that's i think it's a real problem and i would hate to say it's disrespectful i think it's disrespectful to force somebody to use pronouns i think that are being invented by the day if i told they're not being invented by the day i don't know where you're getting that information how many genders are there how many pronouns are there they're i can't define the number of genders or the number of pronouns exactly because anyone can determine them they are being invented by the day new genders each day so if i told you that i identified as you know if i said hey i want you to use just my name not my pronouns sure does that make you uncomfortable no right that wasn't hard was it no it wasn't hard yeah exactly that's what people are asking you to do no yeah you know as a matter of fact you have people you have a ta we just had her on the program yesterday who uh sorry on monday um who got in trouble for using the student's name because a student demanded that he use fem use masculine pronouns even though she was a girl and he said listen i'm not comfortable with that i will use her name masculine pronouns i believe that person would be using masculine pronouns and you just misgendered them yeah you used the name you said he used the name yes yeah i did because she's a female um that's not how that works i think that is how that works so we established that is how that works you agreed with me previously that we and we established previously gender and sex are totally different no i don't agree how do you know that person's a female i i know that because of biology and here's gender theory did you did you like happen to just like examine them and decide that person's a female because of what you saw is their external genitalia can i ask you a question yeah do you genuinely feel that i've been interrupting you more than me you keep saying you're not able to finish a thought i haven't finished a phrase i think you just finished a phrase okay do we want to score points or do we want to be i think you've been interrupting me quite a bit and you just assumed a premise that i don't agree with no i that's my point that i've not been able to make is gender theory as you're describing it it's very new it started with simon berwar in 1948 and what you're discussing is the idea that actually came with judith butler the only the first time there was this idea that there were more than two genders was john money i'm sure you're familiar with that case um that's very new i don't and there's no biological backing behind this theory it is based on an emotive response so i don't agree that gender and sex are separate legal documentation sometimes don't say they're separate we're trying to adapt that now based on how people feel and i don't think that we should adapt the law considering something an act of violence because someone uses a pronoun which is biologically correct because you consider an act of violence against you what's a biological pronoun he her his how do we determine that whether they're male or female yeah but how do we determine that what if we decided that she her hers was what we were going to use for males it doesn't matter it doesn't matter we right now yeah right we have male and female his or her standard right no it's a biological standard the words that we use are based off of like what we as a society use though not entirely yeah they're reflections this is pretty societally based okay i would say amphibian what about amphibians is that societally based an amphibian is a is it i don't you know what i'm not a science major but i will say an amphibian is a like scientific classification yeah it's a classification of an animal species bush tree blueberry yeah okay the point is that language is a reflection of standards that we have a society are doctors sexist i think some doctors are sex are doctors transphobic if they refer to their patients who have a penis and they come in for a prostate exam as a male is that dr hate speaking is that an act of aggression i think if that doctor misgenders their patient then yeah they are being transphobic okay well i don't i my mind has not changed but i think uh and i tried to find some common ground and i'm sorry that we didn't i'm sorry i'm sorry that you feel that way yeah thank you madison i'm not going to shake it i figured watch good morning mug club live every monday through thursday at 10 15 eastern

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Keywords: steven crowder, crowder, stephen crowder, crowder bits, crowderbits, crowder clips, louder with crowder, LwC, mug club, Change My Mind, Crowder Confronts, comedy, politics, news, liberal, libertarian, funny conservative, fake news, how to debate, how to debunk, Crowder Bits Playlist1776, misgendering, misgender, violence, misgendering violence, transgender, non binary, binary, multiple genders, 2 genders, rachel levine, there are only 2 genders

Id: w0zv62EBfMU

Length: 23min 46sec (1426 seconds)

Published: Fri Feb 26 2021