Jordan Peterson: “There was plenty of motivation to take me out. It just didn't work" | British GQ

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how much responsibility<font color="#E5E5E5"> do you feel you</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">have particular it's</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> the</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> OLT right who</font> as you say<font color="#E5E5E5"> some of</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> them have enjoyed</font> your<font color="#CCCCCC"> work and so</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> now I'm not one</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> of you</font> I'm<font color="#CCCCCC"> not one of</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> you</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> guys I'm not</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> with</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> you</font> can they haven't enjoyed my work<font color="#CCCCCC"> I've</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">definitely read bits on the</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> Indian War</font> you've sold<font color="#CCCCCC"> two million copies</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> of</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> 12</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">rolls for</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> life you have 800,000</font> followers on Twitter 1.4 million followers on<font color="#CCCCCC"> YouTube what is it</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> that</font> you're selling<font color="#CCCCCC"> that so many people</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> want</font> to buy<font color="#CCCCCC"> I don't think I'm</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> selling</font> anything<font color="#CCCCCC"> well I went to</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> a show where</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> you</font> were<font color="#CCCCCC"> swear</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> you were selling tickets to</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">your show so people</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> are willing to</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> pay a</font> lot<font color="#CCCCCC"> of money to see you speak you know</font> what is it<font color="#E5E5E5"> that you think</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> that</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> people</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">are hungry for they want to hear from</font> you they are hungry<font color="#E5E5E5"> for</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> a discussion of</font> the<font color="#CCCCCC"> relationship between</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> responsibility</font> and meaning<font color="#E5E5E5"> and we haven't had that</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">discussion in our culture for</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> 50 years</font> we've concentrated on rights and privileges<font color="#E5E5E5"> of freedom and impulsive</font> pleasure<font color="#CCCCCC"> those are all</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> useful in their</font> place but<font color="#E5E5E5"> they're shallow and that's not</font> good<font color="#E5E5E5"> because if people are more</font> shallowly than storms<font color="#E5E5E5"> wreck them and</font> storms come along so I'm talking<font color="#E5E5E5"> to</font> people<font color="#E5E5E5"> about how</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> they can build a</font> foundation underneath<font color="#E5E5E5"> and that works and</font> and people need<font color="#CCCCCC"> to</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> know</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> that</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> because</font> otherwise their lives are harder than they need<font color="#CCCCCC"> to</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> be</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> well what is it but you</font> have that no one else has what are<font color="#E5E5E5"> you</font> offering that no one<font color="#CCCCCC"> else's right now</font> well I think<font color="#CCCCCC"> I</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> think that</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> is what I'm</font> offering<font color="#E5E5E5"> that that's not part of</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> the</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">public discussion</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">you know when it's grounded in my</font> clinical knowledge so I've<font color="#E5E5E5"> been a</font> clinician<font color="#E5E5E5"> for</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> a very long</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> time and I'm</font> familiar with<font color="#E5E5E5"> the works of most of the</font> great 20th century clinicians and<font color="#E5E5E5"> a</font> reasonable amount<font color="#E5E5E5"> of philosophy and</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> a</font> good swath<font color="#E5E5E5"> of literature and I'm a</font> credible scientist and so I can bring <font color="#CCCCCC">that all together and I've</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> tried</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> to</font> bring<font color="#E5E5E5"> it all together and to make a case</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">for the significance of individual life</font> and the psychological<font color="#E5E5E5"> necessity of</font> courage<font color="#E5E5E5"> and nobility and responsibility</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">these things that sound old-fashioned</font> our<font color="#E5E5E5"> old fashioned in the best sense</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">their old-fashioned</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> because they've</font> lasted forever and they're<font color="#CCCCCC"> absolutely</font> necessary<font color="#CCCCCC"> and people need a call to</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">responsibility because they need to</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">mature they need to want to be adults</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">you know and I</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> don't think we do a very</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">good job</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> in our culture of</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> making a case</font> for<font color="#CCCCCC"> why it's a good thing to be an adult</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">and two things really</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> made you famous</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">which is first of all is the book twelve</font> rules for life<font color="#E5E5E5"> the second one I think</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">was an interview went viral Kathy Newman</font> of<font color="#CCCCCC"> Channel</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> four News which she talked</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">about</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> all</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> right he's got a big big</font> following but that was I think<font color="#CCCCCC"> really</font> fascinating that interview<font color="#E5E5E5"> because it</font> was specifically about<font color="#E5E5E5"> men and women and</font> you said at the<font color="#E5E5E5"> time you know</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> YouTube</font> skews very<font color="#E5E5E5"> male and your fan base is</font> very<font color="#CCCCCC"> male is that still the case are</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> you</font> still mostly primarily talking<font color="#E5E5E5"> to men</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> I</font> would<font color="#CCCCCC"> say the stalks are probably 6040</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">6535 male to female the book sales I</font> don't know<font color="#CCCCCC"> I doubt it because it usually</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">it's women who buy books although men do</font> buy<font color="#CCCCCC"> them</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> nonfiction if they buy books we</font> don't know the demographics on the books <font color="#CCCCCC">but</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> the book</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> has definitely expanded my</font> audience<font color="#CCCCCC"> I would say and that's a</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> good</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">thing</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> as far as</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> I'm concerned I mean I</font> never<font color="#E5E5E5"> set out specifically</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> to talk to</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">men my students for most years</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> at the</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">university have been primarily female</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> I</font> think<font color="#CCCCCC"> most</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> of</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> my graduate students have</font> been female<font color="#E5E5E5"> it might be about</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> 50/50 but</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">I think it would probably tilt more in</font> the direction<font color="#E5E5E5"> of female so it wasn't</font> like<font color="#E5E5E5"> wasn't something I set out to do</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> I</font> think though that<font color="#E5E5E5"> as I said earlier well</font> I can't tell how much<font color="#E5E5E5"> of</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> it is merely a</font> consequence of the fact that<font color="#E5E5E5"> YouTube</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">skews so male it might also be something</font> to do with the call<font color="#E5E5E5"> to take on voluntary</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">responsibility I'm not exactly sure why</font> that<font color="#E5E5E5"> would be more necessary for men</font> right now<font color="#CCCCCC"> I think</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> it might be because</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">our culture confuses men's desire for</font> achievement and competence with the patriarchal desire for tyrannical<font color="#CCCCCC"> power</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">and that's a big</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> mistake</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> those aren't</font> the<font color="#CCCCCC"> same thing</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> even a bit so and it's</font> very inappropriate<font color="#CCCCCC"> psychologically and</font> sociologically to confuse them so well one of the<font color="#E5E5E5"> things I want</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> to come back to</font> is this idea so that<font color="#E5E5E5"> you say in the book</font> you<font color="#E5E5E5"> know there is masculine or</font> and feminine chaos<font color="#CCCCCC"> that's no actually I</font> say that<font color="#E5E5E5"> those</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> are symbolic</font> representations of<font color="#E5E5E5"> the two things</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> all</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">right</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> okay so why why is order masculine</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">um</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> I think it's because our</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> primary</font> social<font color="#E5E5E5"> hierarchy structures are</font> fundamentally masculine and that's not <font color="#E5E5E5">the patriarchy well it's not the modern</font> idea<font color="#CCCCCC"> of</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> the patriarchy that's for sure I</font> mean that's oh that's<font color="#E5E5E5"> my idea of the</font> patriarchy which is a system<font color="#E5E5E5"> of male</font> dominance<font color="#E5E5E5"> of society yeah but that's not</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">my sense of the patriarchy</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> so what's</font> yours<font color="#CCCCCC"> well in what sense is our society</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">male-dominated the fact that the vast</font> majority<font color="#E5E5E5"> of wealth is owned by men the</font> vast majority<font color="#CCCCCC"> of capital and is owned by</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">men women do more unpaid labor</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> every</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">tiny proportion of men</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> and a</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> huge</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">proportion of people who are seriously</font> disaffected or men most people in prison are<font color="#E5E5E5"> men most people who are on the</font> street are men<font color="#E5E5E5"> most victims of violent</font> crime are men<font color="#E5E5E5"> most people who commit</font> suicide<font color="#E5E5E5"> are men</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> most men most people who</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">die</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> in wars are men</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> people who do worse</font> in<font color="#CCCCCC"> school are men it's like where's the</font> dominance here<font color="#E5E5E5"> precisely what you're</font> doing is you're<font color="#CCCCCC"> taking a tiny substrata</font> of<font color="#E5E5E5"> hyper</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">successful men and using that</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> to</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">represent the</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> entire structure</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> of the of</font> Western society<font color="#CCCCCC"> there's nothing about</font> that<font color="#E5E5E5"> that's vaguely appropriate</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> and I</font> could say equally want the most rape victims<font color="#CCCCCC"> are women you know terrible</font> things happen to<font color="#CCCCCC"> people of both sexes</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">and</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> you could say</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> that with</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> perfect</font> utility but that doesn't provide any evidence<font color="#E5E5E5"> for the existence of a</font> male-dominated<font color="#E5E5E5"> patriarchy well that just</font> means that terrible things happen<font color="#CCCCCC"> to</font> both genders<font color="#E5E5E5"> which they certainly do but</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">there are almost no women who rape men</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">for example</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> so that is an asymmetry</font> there in sexual violence<font color="#CCCCCC"> well yes</font> there's a nice if there's an asymmetry <font color="#E5E5E5">in all sorts of places but</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> that doesn't</font> mean<font color="#E5E5E5"> that Western</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> culture is a</font> male-dominated<font color="#E5E5E5"> patriarchy the fact that</font> there are<font color="#CCCCCC"> a symmetries has nothing to do</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">with your basic argument</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> no but you</font> might<font color="#E5E5E5"> be this is</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> a trope that</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> people</font> just<font color="#E5E5E5"> accept Western societies of</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">male-dominated</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> patriarchy it's like no</font> it's<font color="#CCCCCC"> not</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> that's not true and and even if</font> it even<font color="#CCCCCC"> if it has a patriarchal</font> structure<font color="#E5E5E5"> to some degree the the</font> fundamental<font color="#E5E5E5"> basis of that structure is</font> not power<font color="#CCCCCC"> its competence</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> that's why our</font> society<font color="#E5E5E5"> works it's only one is when a</font> structure degenerates<font color="#E5E5E5"> into tyranny that</font> the fun mental relationships between people <font color="#E5E5E5">become dependent on power it's not power</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">if you hire a plumber</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> who's likely</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> to</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> be</font> male it's not because there's roving bands of tyrannical plumbers forcing you to make that<font color="#E5E5E5"> choice</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> and it's the case</font> with almost<font color="#E5E5E5"> every interaction that you</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">have at the face of</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> our culture</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> you're</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">dealing</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> with</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> people who are</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> offering a</font> service<font color="#CCCCCC"> of one form or another who are</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">usually part</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> of</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> the broad middle</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> class</font> and who offer and what you're looking <font color="#CCCCCC">for is</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> the person who can offer the</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> best</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">service and you</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> can find it</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> it's not</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> a</font> consequence<font color="#CCCCCC"> of being dominated by</font> anything that's tyrannical<font color="#E5E5E5"> and and then</font> again our<font color="#E5E5E5"> culture Western culture</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> which</font> is by no means<font color="#E5E5E5"> perfect</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> and certainly has</font> tyrannical elements like all cultures do is the least tyrannical<font color="#CCCCCC"> society that's</font> ever been produced<font color="#E5E5E5"> and certainly the</font> least tyrannical society that exists now <font color="#E5E5E5">so</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> where's</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> the patriarchy exactly you</font> know well saying that<font color="#E5E5E5"> it's the least</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">technical</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> society</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> is</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> not the same as</font> saying it's not<font color="#E5E5E5"> a tyrannical society</font> that's exactly why I said it<font color="#CCCCCC"> was the</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">land to run it but</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> that's what I mean so</font> you haven't debunked the existence of patriarchy then<font color="#CCCCCC"> you said that actually</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">now is better women to demonstrate its</font> existence<font color="#E5E5E5"> okay well let's go</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> through it</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">I'm writing a book about</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> feminism in the</font> moment until 1919 there were professions <font color="#CCCCCC">that women were barred from</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> they simply</font> were not<font color="#E5E5E5"> allowed</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> to do it</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> until</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> 1880s</font> why would you blame men for that<font color="#E5E5E5"> because</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">who was in those professions</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> who was</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">guarding entry to those professions who</font> was worried about<font color="#E5E5E5"> losing their status if</font> women<font color="#E5E5E5"> became doctors the demands of</font> women in the 20th century<font color="#CCCCCC"> just out of</font> curiosity<font color="#E5E5E5"> well a couple of different</font> things<font color="#E5E5E5"> I think it was technology</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> I</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> think</font> was<font color="#E5E5E5"> the pill helped enormously was one</font> in the 60s<font color="#CCCCCC"> great so that wasn't 1919</font> no but I also think<font color="#E5E5E5"> it was a series of</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">legal changes that</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> started in Britain</font> with the married women's Property Act which said for the first<font color="#E5E5E5"> time</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> women are</font> full legal beings under the law they can own<font color="#CCCCCC"> property</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> and that to me</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> is a</font> structure that<font color="#E5E5E5"> has continued throughout</font> from<font color="#E5E5E5"> a time when women didn't have the</font> same<font color="#E5E5E5"> legal</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> rights as</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> men to now when</font> they mostly do but culture still lags behind it<font color="#E5E5E5"> I don't think you and I are</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">necessarily talking at such</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">cross-purposes it's just that your</font> conception of patriarchy as I<font color="#CCCCCC"> see it in</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">the book is that quite a lot of men are</font> quite nice<font color="#E5E5E5"> and</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> they're do nice things</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">for women</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> and</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> that's not my conception</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">of</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> Pidgeon well</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> you</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> know I</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> don't require</font> men or advise them to<font color="#E5E5E5"> be nice well you</font> do talk about<font color="#CCCCCC"> the guy who's the tampon</font> King the sanitary towel<font color="#E5E5E5"> king of India</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">right wouldn't</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> call that nice okay well</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">we're gonna</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> breathe okay did you read</font> his life when he<font color="#CCCCCC"> was trying to</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> develop</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">that</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> yeah</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> god it was absolutely</font> miserable<font color="#E5E5E5"> and he did it anyways what</font> read all sorts of women<font color="#E5E5E5"> as a consequence</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">and</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> I think that was nice</font> that's courageous<font color="#CCCCCC"> that's Noble that's</font> visionary<font color="#CCCCCC"> it's not nice I think it is</font> also nice<font color="#CCCCCC"> I think it is also something</font> that is<font color="#E5E5E5"> recent you know it is honoring</font> your social obligations<font color="#CCCCCC"> I'm not so sure</font> that<font color="#E5E5E5"> that's a social obligation</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> because</font> many<font color="#E5E5E5"> other people would have done it had</font> it<font color="#E5E5E5"> been a social</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> obligation</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> it said what</font> he was concerned<font color="#CCCCCC"> about he saw that his</font> wife was suffering with<font color="#E5E5E5"> her monthly</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">period and had to choose</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> between feeding</font> her family and taking<font color="#E5E5E5"> care of herself</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">properly and chose to feed her family</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">and</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> thought he would do something about</font> that<font color="#CCCCCC"> that goes way past nice especially</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">given what he had to suffer</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> through to</font> do all the experimentation<font color="#E5E5E5"> that produced</font> his his eventual technology<font color="#E5E5E5"> so like I</font> this whole patriarchy thing I think you have no idea how pernicious and dangerous it is<font color="#E5E5E5"> well no I</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> don't never go</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">throughout history have fundamentally</font> cooperated to push back against the absolute<font color="#E5E5E5"> catastrophe of existence</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> a</font> terrible death rate that the probability of<font color="#E5E5E5"> chronic starvation early death</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">disease the difficulty of raising</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">children</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> with all the death that was</font> associated<font color="#CCCCCC"> with that</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> and to look</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">backwards in time and say well basically</font> what happened was men took the upper <font color="#CCCCCC">hand and persecuted women in this</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">tyrannical patriarchy is it's absolutely</font> dreadful miss reading<font color="#E5E5E5"> of history it's a</font> terrible thing<font color="#CCCCCC"> to teach young women and</font> it's a<font color="#E5E5E5"> horrible thing to</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> inflict</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> upon</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">men I mean I absolutely</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> disagree with</font> you I<font color="#CCCCCC"> think that's like saying slavery</font> in the<font color="#CCCCCC"> u.s. was</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> actually most people</font> cooperate well no you didn't you<font color="#CCCCCC"> had a</font> system<font color="#CCCCCC"> where one set of people owned</font> another set of<font color="#E5E5E5"> people and until</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> women</font> got full legal rights they<font color="#CCCCCC"> could own</font> property themselves<font color="#CCCCCC"> they could</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> work</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">essentially they</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> were owned they were</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">owned by their fathers and</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> their mothers</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">to the</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> domination by men</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> yeah and they</font> said that<font color="#E5E5E5"> you thought</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> that what</font> emancipated<font color="#CCCCCC"> women primarily</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> in the 20th</font> century<font color="#CCCCCC"> was technological revolution no</font> no primarily but that's one<font color="#E5E5E5"> of two I</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">think there's new things</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> 'verily I know</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">I think</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> the pill was</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> a primary force in</font> the emancipation of women<font color="#E5E5E5"> I think</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> an</font> extension of of tampons let's say or there are the provision of proper sanitary facilities<font color="#E5E5E5"> toilets and that</font> sort of thing you're<font color="#E5E5E5"> thinking instead it was the</font> action of courage feminists in the 1920s<font color="#E5E5E5"> that produced a</font> social revolution that overthrew the patriarchy that's your theory<font color="#CCCCCC"> yeah</font> that's a foolish theory<font color="#CCCCCC"> well I'm very</font> sorry<font color="#E5E5E5"> to hear you say that but</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> I think</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">to quote you</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> in the Kathy Newman</font> interview I<font color="#CCCCCC"> think it's a multivariate</font> right I think<font color="#CCCCCC"> there were lots of</font> different<font color="#CCCCCC"> things</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> that all contributed</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">too well all right</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> assuming</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> that Western</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">society was a tyrannical Patriot</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">unabated one of them and then other</font> things<font color="#E5E5E5"> happened as well so you have the</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">pale you have the dishwasher and white</font> goods<font color="#CCCCCC"> labor-saving devices in the home</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> I</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">think all of</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> those were</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> really important</font> but<font color="#E5E5E5"> you also have things like campaigns</font> for<font color="#E5E5E5"> the vote yes you also have things</font> like<font color="#CCCCCC"> that</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> yes so how when in a system</font> that<font color="#E5E5E5"> existed in</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> England until</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> 1918 when</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">I what do you even want to look at</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">history like that like what what's</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> your</font> what's your goal<font color="#E5E5E5"> because I</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> think the</font> people<font color="#E5E5E5"> who don't</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> look at history</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> are</font> condemned<font color="#CCCCCC"> to repeat it</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> and I think</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> that</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">we</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> are we're gonna what are we gonna do</font> repeat the persecution<font color="#E5E5E5"> of women you</font> think that's a realistic<font color="#E5E5E5"> possibility</font> here you see that<font color="#E5E5E5"> we're sitting here in</font> America<font color="#E5E5E5"> right well we've just had</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> a</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">fifth judge appointed to the Supreme</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">Court who is now aunt abortions now</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">can't conservative I</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> think that abortion</font> rights<font color="#E5E5E5"> are accidentally fundamental to</font> women being able to<font color="#E5E5E5"> function</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> as full</font> humans<font color="#CCCCCC"> in society and I think</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> that is</font> now under threat<font color="#E5E5E5"> in America</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> I</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> think it</font> is extremely smug and complacent to <font color="#E5E5E5">think civilization has peaked it's all</font> upwards from<font color="#E5E5E5"> here yeah well good</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> luck</font> with<font color="#CCCCCC"> that it's a living like you know</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> I</font> there<font color="#E5E5E5"> are lots of people who</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> grieve</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> me</font> there are lots of<font color="#E5E5E5"> people clearly who</font> agree<font color="#CCCCCC"> with you I want to</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> go there</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> just a</font> lot of<font color="#CCCCCC"> people I would say who are</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> coming</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">to</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> listen to what I say</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> because they're</font> sick and<font color="#E5E5E5"> tired of</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> having their desire to</font> move forward in the<font color="#E5E5E5"> world and to achieve</font> something and to take their place as adult males let's say who<font color="#CCCCCC"> are under</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> the</font> weight of accusations that their ambition and forthrightness is a manifestation of something<font color="#E5E5E5"> that's</font> fundamentally tyrannical they're not happy<font color="#E5E5E5"> with that it's not doing anyone</font> any<font color="#CCCCCC"> good and it's also not true</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> it's</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">really a terrible thing</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> to do to young</font> men<font color="#CCCCCC"> and it's</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> happening all the time</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">that's why they're bailing</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> out of</font> universities like mad from be a man left <font color="#E5E5E5">in the social sciences in ten years in</font> the<font color="#CCCCCC"> Universities and there's no bloody</font> wonder<font color="#E5E5E5"> it's an unsuitable place and it's</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">unhospitable</font> precisely because of this doctrine said that throughout history the fundamental <font color="#E5E5E5">relationship between men and women was</font> one power essentially slavery<font color="#CCCCCC"> it's like fine</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">believe it if you want it's not gonna do</font> your relationships any good I can tell <font color="#CCCCCC">you that</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> so</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> okay</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> well well we'll see how</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">that one goes on</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> I'm</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> currently married</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">but it</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> new</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> oh well I'm</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> raising with him</font> um I think<font color="#E5E5E5"> the</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> universities example is a</font> really fascinating one because<font color="#CCCCCC"> you talk</font> in the<font color="#E5E5E5"> book about the fact that now</font> women are<font color="#E5E5E5"> a majority on two-thirds of</font> college<font color="#E5E5E5"> courses in the</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> US</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> and you know</font> I've also seen you saying<font color="#CCCCCC"> would you</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">believe in equality of opportunity but</font> not equality<font color="#CCCCCC"> of outcome maybe but only</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">that</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> I don't</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> believe</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> in</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> equality of</font> outcome I think<font color="#CCCCCC"> it's an unbelievably</font> pathological wish and<font color="#CCCCCC"> dr. Wright but</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> the</font> dangerous history has demonstrated <font color="#E5E5E5">exactly how dangerous it is equality of</font> opportunity is something<font color="#E5E5E5"> that anyone</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">with any</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> sense would support but</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">equality of outcome it's so what's your</font> problem<font color="#E5E5E5"> with</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> then not</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> doing beyond</font> belief to<font color="#E5E5E5"> choose to support</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> equality of</font> outcome okay<font color="#CCCCCC"> so what's your</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> problem</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> were</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">there not</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> being enough men in the social</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">sciences perhaps women are just cleverer</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">perhaps that's why there are more</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> women</font> at<font color="#E5E5E5"> university right under your doctrine</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">I don't think that but that's I think</font> the logical extension<font color="#E5E5E5"> your daughter</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">isn't the fact that there's an unequal</font> distribution the problem I have<font color="#E5E5E5"> with</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> it</font> is that<font color="#E5E5E5"> the</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> reason that men are bailing</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">out is because of the prevalence of the</font> doctrine<font color="#CCCCCC"> that you're exposing</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> that's the</font> problem<font color="#E5E5E5"> I have with</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> it</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> but doesn't</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">matter that much they will be allowed I</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">don't see any way that the universities</font> who are<font color="#E5E5E5"> going to redeem themselves in</font> the next<font color="#E5E5E5"> decade so</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> and maybe that will</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">be fine but I doubt it</font> let's see<font color="#E5E5E5"> that</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> seems extremely</font> pessimistic<font color="#E5E5E5"> when the majority of numbers</font> of<font color="#CCCCCC"> people going to university</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> just</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">generally are</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> going up yeah well</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> that's</font> not going<font color="#E5E5E5"> to last for very long why not</font> because it's too<font color="#E5E5E5"> expensive and the</font> universities are doing<font color="#E5E5E5"> all sorts of</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">things that aren't acceptable mostly</font> racking up the price ratcheting up the <font color="#E5E5E5">price so and decreasing the</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> quality of</font> what they're<font color="#E5E5E5"> offering and playing into</font> the hands<font color="#CCCCCC"> of the people who are</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">ideological acolytes of</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> the identity</font> politics routines and<font color="#E5E5E5"> playing postmodern</font> stunts and pushing neo Marxism and<font color="#E5E5E5"> all</font> these things<font color="#E5E5E5"> that</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> are characteristic</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> of</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">of</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> the social sciences and the</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">humanities primarily see this is what I</font> find you you fascinating to me because <font color="#E5E5E5">you know you talk in these apocalyptic</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">terms</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> I think</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> that you know</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> someone who</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">will</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> listen to that and think wow</font> there's a really big problem<font color="#E5E5E5"> but what</font> we're<font color="#E5E5E5"> really talking about is some</font> irritatingly postmodern professors and some students with blue<font color="#CCCCCC"> hair and funny</font> about<font color="#CCCCCC"> gender in a handful</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> of courses</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">around America Western</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> about no one</font> would have paid attention<font color="#CCCCCC"> to</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> me</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> for more</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">than about</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> 15 minutes so you might see</font> this as some surface manifestation that's<font color="#CCCCCC"> irrelevant but that isn't</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> how</font> most people<font color="#CCCCCC"> view</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> it ah I</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> already</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> the</font> case<font color="#CCCCCC"> to</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> that this identity politics</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">battle of ideas</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> was a determining factor</font> in the last<font color="#CCCCCC"> American election if</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> Hillary</font> wouldn't have played identity politics played cozy with<font color="#CCCCCC"> the identity politics</font> type she would have kept<font color="#E5E5E5"> the</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">working-class and she would be president</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">now so these aren't trivial issues by</font> any stretch of the<font color="#E5E5E5"> imagination it's not</font> just some kids having<font color="#E5E5E5"> a decent time</font> while they're being creatively rebellious at<font color="#E5E5E5"> university it's a much</font> deeper problem<font color="#CCCCCC"> than that</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> the doctrine</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">the</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> doctors that I'm opposed</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> to are</font> predicated<font color="#CCCCCC"> on</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> well one assumption</font> they're predicated on<font color="#CCCCCC"> is</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> probably the</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">primary assumption is that the best way</font> to<font color="#E5E5E5"> view history is as the domination of</font> a tyrannical male patriarchy and<font color="#E5E5E5"> that's</font> true<font color="#CCCCCC"> also particularly of the</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> West which</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">is a</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> doctrine I find absolutely</font> unpalatable<font color="#CCCCCC"> and historically absurd the</font> biologically ridiculous and ungrateful among other things<font color="#CCCCCC"> his Lord whose</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">ungrateful sorry and that who is being</font> ungrateful<font color="#E5E5E5"> look at what you have Ryan</font> lived in the best society<font color="#E5E5E5"> that's ever</font> been created<font color="#CCCCCC"> you know I was</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> reading</font> about<font color="#E5E5E5"> something do you mean me as a</font> woman<font color="#CCCCCC"> or me as a 21st century person in</font> the world<font color="#CCCCCC"> I mean us yeah I mean I'm</font> incredibly grateful<font color="#E5E5E5"> what I have but</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> to</font> me the politics instruction of the tyrannical patriarchy you're<font color="#CCCCCC"> grateful</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">for the productions of a tyrannical</font> patriarchy<font color="#E5E5E5"> how does that make</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> sense</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">because I think</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> life is good</font> I<font color="#E5E5E5"> think it could be better</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> that that's</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">their main reasonable proposition</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> but I</font> guess<font color="#E5E5E5"> that isn't commensurate with</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> your</font> claim that<font color="#CCCCCC"> you're the beneficiary of</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> the</font> tyrannical patriarchy<font color="#CCCCCC"> why no how can</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> it</font> be good<font color="#CCCCCC"> if it's the consequence</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> of a</font> tyrannical patriarchy tyranny isn't good is it I mean<font color="#E5E5E5"> that's the definition of</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">tyranny</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> something that isn't good</font> and yet<font color="#CCCCCC"> it's produced all these things</font> that you're<font color="#E5E5E5"> grateful for</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> like doesn't</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">that contradict in contradiction bother</font> you<font color="#E5E5E5"> where did where did what was good</font> come from<font color="#E5E5E5"> where is well I</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> think</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> from I</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">think I'm benefiting actually from a lot</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">of things that I</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> don't support that are</font> unearned privileges in my life I<font color="#CCCCCC"> think</font> that's absolutely<font color="#CCCCCC"> change your job</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> like I</font> have a very<font color="#E5E5E5"> good job I had of loving</font> family<font color="#E5E5E5"> I don't think that's gonna do</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> the</font> world any good is that's a hell of a fine<font color="#E5E5E5"> rationalization for your privileged</font> position<font color="#CCCCCC"> oh well fair</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> enough</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> but now you</font> know if you<font color="#CCCCCC"> could trade it off with</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">someone who's less privileged</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> I can't</font> you start I<font color="#E5E5E5"> could I could do that and</font> and but I don't I don't want to and I won't and I<font color="#CCCCCC"> don't want</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> to be expected to</font> why not is it okay<font color="#CCCCCC"> for you to occupy a</font> position of privilege in<font color="#E5E5E5"> the patriarchal</font> tyranny and if it is is it<font color="#CCCCCC"> because</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">you're female</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> or is it just because</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> it's</font> convenient<font color="#CCCCCC"> let me tell you my political</font> philosophy<font color="#CCCCCC"> I'm a I guess I'm a Social</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">Democrat so what I believe is that you</font> should if<font color="#CCCCCC"> you have a good life you</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">should try and pass that on</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> I</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> believe in</font> a progressive<font color="#E5E5E5"> redistribute of tax system</font> for<font color="#E5E5E5"> example it was once said</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> by Lord</font> Mandelson in British politics<font color="#E5E5E5"> you know</font> but<font color="#E5E5E5"> New Labour was</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> okay</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> with people</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">being filthy rich as long as they paid</font> their taxes<font color="#E5E5E5"> now I'm kind of less okay</font> with people<font color="#CCCCCC"> being filthy</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> rich but if</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">wanted to</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> be rich</font> well<font color="#CCCCCC"> I</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> think it would leave it's</font> probably in the<font color="#E5E5E5"> top one-tenth of</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> 1% of</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">people who've ever lived on the planet</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">that would constitute</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> filthy rich by</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">historical standards</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> okay but I'm</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> not</font> aware<font color="#CCCCCC"> that every line exactly able to</font> help the Neanderthals at this point really<font color="#E5E5E5"> by giving up some money but this</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">is</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> my point</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> is that</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> what I believe is</font> and I believe in a structure in<font color="#CCCCCC"> which</font> people who have had a good life and had <font color="#E5E5E5">lots of advantages should pay that back</font> pay that<font color="#CCCCCC"> forwards</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> which i think is the</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">message that</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> you preach as well right</font> you have responsibilities<font color="#E5E5E5"> and if you've</font> had like<font color="#CCCCCC"> us a very advanced civilization</font> as a<font color="#E5E5E5"> tyrannical patriarchy it's not</font> purely a tyrannical<font color="#CCCCCC"> business purely not</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">and that's exactly</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> the issue but why do</font> you<font color="#CCCCCC"> live as a tyrannical patriarchy then</font> you make a case<font color="#CCCCCC"> that it's purely</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> that</font> and that's exactly<font color="#E5E5E5"> what's ungrateful</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> why</font> not purely<font color="#E5E5E5"> that at all why saying</font> something has elements<font color="#E5E5E5"> of this medicine</font> what is it easy<font color="#CCCCCC"> self humanely that isn't</font> what's being said merely to define it as <font color="#CCCCCC">a patriarchal implies</font> unit unit unit dimensionality<font color="#E5E5E5"> and to</font> insist<font color="#E5E5E5"> that that's also tyrannical</font> doesn't offer a balanced viewpoint at all well I think that's<font color="#CCCCCC"> probably</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> where</font> yeah I<font color="#E5E5E5"> think that's probably where your</font> disagreement comes with<font color="#E5E5E5"> this which is</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">because I do not see it in</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> that way I do</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">not see that is univariate at all I see</font> is white white<font color="#E5E5E5"> for the patriarchy</font> because it<font color="#E5E5E5"> describes an overarching</font> structure<font color="#E5E5E5"> does it and what if the</font> patriarchy is fundamentally composed of women<font color="#E5E5E5"> is it still patriarchy</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> no</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> that</font> would<font color="#E5E5E5"> be a matriarchy would it so let's</font> say we<font color="#E5E5E5"> take a patriarchal structure yeah</font> the medical profession and we<font color="#E5E5E5"> fill it</font> primarily<font color="#E5E5E5"> with</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> women</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> is it then a</font> matriarchal structure<font color="#E5E5E5"> what makes it a</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">patriarchy begin with</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">at the hierarchical structures that is</font> it the fact that it's mostly men is it the sociological structure<font color="#E5E5E5"> or is</font> it the fact that it's mostly men<font color="#CCCCCC"> well I</font> think that's<font color="#CCCCCC"> really interesting</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> because</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">male primary school teachers for example</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">only 15%</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> of them are men and I</font> interviewed some<font color="#E5E5E5"> of them for my book and</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">you know what they report exactly the</font> same things that<font color="#CCCCCC"> women do in</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">male-dominated</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> offices right they say</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">people have conversations</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> that I feel</font> excluded from I<font color="#E5E5E5"> feel stigmatized like I</font> shouldn't be<font color="#CCCCCC"> here people look at me</font> askance when I say I'm a primary<font color="#E5E5E5"> school</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">teacher and I'm a man you know they kind</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">of</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> reel back we will make those implicit</font> associations sense so if it is if it is <font color="#E5E5E5">a structure that's dominated by</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> women</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">that it's also a tyrannical patriarchy</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> I</font> think in that case then men have a way of<font color="#E5E5E5"> they</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> should be able</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> to complain</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> about</font> the<font color="#E5E5E5"> fact that a</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> very female</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> dominated</font> office leaves them feeling out<font color="#E5E5E5"> - yeah</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">being</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> left out so how do we get</font> something<font color="#CCCCCC"> that isn't a tyrannical</font> patriarchy<font color="#E5E5E5"> if it's composed of women and</font> it's a<font color="#E5E5E5"> tyrannical patriarchy and if it's</font> composed of man it's a tyrannical patriarchy<font color="#E5E5E5"> we're kind</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> of</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> out of options</font> all right but well you can have a blend and<font color="#CCCCCC"> office than which a blend of people</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">of both so</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> 5050 then it's not a</font> tyrannical<font color="#CCCCCC"> picture no 5050 I'm saying</font> that<font color="#CCCCCC"> 40/60 I'm saying that son there is</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">clearly when</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> it is only 15%</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> of male</font> primary teachers they do feel marginalized and excluded so you think <font color="#E5E5E5">the defining hallmark of tyrannical</font> social structures the predominance of one<font color="#E5E5E5"> gender and if that was if that was</font> relatively quiet and<font color="#E5E5E5"> all of a</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> sudden it</font> would be a free and<font color="#E5E5E5"> an open institution</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">I don't think that</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> the male primary</font> school teachers<font color="#CCCCCC"> been terrorized I do</font> think they have been marginalized and<font color="#E5E5E5"> I</font> do think that<font color="#E5E5E5"> they feel excluded</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> and so</font> what to do<font color="#CCCCCC"> about that</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> well this is what</font> I<font color="#E5E5E5"> mean I think actually and I'm</font> surprised<font color="#E5E5E5"> you don't agree with me on</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">this that actually having more male</font> primary school teachers would<font color="#E5E5E5"> be a</font> really<font color="#E5E5E5"> good thing</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> because boys need role</font> models<font color="#E5E5E5"> actually people particularly boys</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">who don't have a father</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> figure in their</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">life</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> that's</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> really important</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> them to</font> have a stable adult who shows them what <font color="#E5E5E5">it's like to be</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> a man</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> around the place</font> could be but you shouldn't achieve it as a consequence of preferential<font color="#CCCCCC"> hiring no</font> I don't even<font color="#E5E5E5"> need</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> necessarily need to be</font> preferential hiring I think it would nest <font color="#CCCCCC">down the stigma</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> to entering that job I</font> think<font color="#E5E5E5"> teaching is</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> a really</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> interesting</font> example it was seen at the Turner's when I was 18 19<font color="#E5E5E5"> right there were no men in</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">it and how did that make you feel I</font> loved it<font color="#CCCCCC"> ya know what the kids I</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> used to</font> wrestle with the kids which<font color="#CCCCCC"> of course</font> can't do now<font color="#E5E5E5"> because everybody knows</font> that<font color="#E5E5E5"> that would</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> just be a catastrophe</font> and<font color="#E5E5E5"> I used to draw them pictures of</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">monsters and</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> they'd line up for that and</font> I<font color="#CCCCCC"> like</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> working with</font> kids quite a lot and<font color="#E5E5E5"> I didn't care</font> whether it was<font color="#CCCCCC"> a female-dominated I've</font> been<font color="#CCCCCC"> in female-dominated my profession</font> is my whole<font color="#E5E5E5"> life</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> very I think it felt</font> marginalized as a consequence<font color="#CCCCCC"> well then</font> you have been<font color="#E5E5E5"> lucky and I have</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> total</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">favor I'd be like the opposite</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> I'd be</font> careful can conduct as<font color="#CCCCCC"> well</font> explain that<font color="#CCCCCC"> more to me</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> well why would</font> you assume<font color="#CCCCCC"> that</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> it would be luck well if</font> I say that<font color="#E5E5E5"> you know there is a</font> statistical analysis<font color="#CCCCCC"> and I</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> talk to a</font> broad<font color="#E5E5E5"> range of people and you know you</font> can<font color="#CCCCCC"> always</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> expect outliers at either end</font> some people<font color="#CCCCCC"> who had a really</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> terrible</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">time some people who had a</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> really</font> brilliant<font color="#E5E5E5"> time everyone else and things</font> that<font color="#E5E5E5"> I strive to</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> do</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> is not to become</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">resentful well okay that's</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> very</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> good I</font> have<font color="#E5E5E5"> to say that your Twitter feed does</font> not give me<font color="#E5E5E5"> that</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> impression you come</font> across<font color="#E5E5E5"> as</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> somebody who takes criticism</font> very<font color="#E5E5E5"> much to heart is that true</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> I don't</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">think you have any grounds for</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> that</font> suggestion<font color="#CCCCCC"> I mean</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> you see my interviews</font> online<font color="#E5E5E5"> if I was someone</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> who took</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">criticism at heart I'd be in a lot more</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">trouble</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> than I am now</font> in what way<font color="#E5E5E5"> well I've been</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> criticized</font> endlessly for two years I've been<font color="#E5E5E5"> in</font> scandals<font color="#CCCCCC"> I</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> probably been in I don't know</font> how many scandals in<font color="#CCCCCC"> the last two</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> years</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">and had unbelievably contentious</font> interviews with journalists<font color="#CCCCCC"> online</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> on TV</font> on radio<font color="#E5E5E5"> in podcasts if I was someone</font> who<font color="#E5E5E5"> couldn't tolerate criticism the</font> evidence for<font color="#E5E5E5"> that would already be clear</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">I Twitter is a strange social network</font> I've kind of pulled myself away<font color="#CCCCCC"> from it</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">so it's not an easy place to conduct</font> yourself with<font color="#E5E5E5"> as much grace</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> as</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> you might</font> and I think it's it sort of rewards impulsivity<font color="#E5E5E5"> because it's maybe it's</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">because</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> of the constraint on on</font> characters or<font color="#E5E5E5"> something like that so I</font> think that people tend to<font color="#E5E5E5"> show their</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">worst on Twitter and and some of that's</font> a consequence of the of<font color="#E5E5E5"> the structure of</font> the technology<font color="#E5E5E5"> I think</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> I said any agree</font> with you I<font color="#CCCCCC"> think</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> that's</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> something that</font> we agree on<font color="#CCCCCC"> that</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> I think people are</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">rarely at their best on Twitter no and</font> you know I pulled myself away<font color="#CCCCCC"> from it</font> quite a<font color="#E5E5E5"> lot in the last month</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> mostly for</font> to see why you know I kind<font color="#CCCCCC"> of kept an</font> eye on Twitter<font color="#E5E5E5"> all the social medias</font> media networks for the<font color="#E5E5E5"> last few</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> years</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">partly</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> to see well I'm trying to monitor</font> what's happening<font color="#CCCCCC"> around me</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> I suppose is</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">probably the right way of thinking</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> about</font> it<font color="#E5E5E5"> and to see if I'm making mistakes and</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">how they might be rectified</font> but I don't<font color="#E5E5E5"> think Twitter's been good</font> for me<font color="#E5E5E5"> and I don't think it's I don't</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">think the reply function on Twitter is</font> useful and I<font color="#E5E5E5"> think the fact that so many</font> people<font color="#CCCCCC"> on Twitter</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> are anonymous</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> is not a</font> good<font color="#E5E5E5"> thing at all do you think</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> you'd</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> be</font> less<font color="#E5E5E5"> angry if you went on Twitter that's</font> something I think<font color="#CCCCCC"> quite a lot</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">I've been dissed I would be</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> coming to</font> contact with less things that annoyed me <font color="#CCCCCC">on a</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> daily basis</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> oh I think there's no</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">doubt about that</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> yeah yeah</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> I I think</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">that's</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> definitely the case</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> and I've</font> talked<font color="#CCCCCC"> to</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> other people who've pulled</font> back from<font color="#E5E5E5"> Twitter</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> and experienced the</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">same thing I don't know what it is</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">exactly but there's a there's</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> something</font> about Twitter that seems to really <font color="#E5E5E5">heighten the desire of</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> people to be</font> provocative<font color="#CCCCCC"> and</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> maybe it's the case</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> that</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">only</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> people</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> who</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> are feeling</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> irritable</font> respond<font color="#E5E5E5"> you know we don't know you know</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">like if you put up a post and a thousand</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">people read it</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> certainly a thousand</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">people don't respond</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> a few people</font> respond<font color="#E5E5E5"> well</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> maybe maybe it's skews way</font> over to<font color="#E5E5E5"> those people who had a bad day</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">like we have</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> no idea</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> right because it's</font> a communication<font color="#E5E5E5"> channel that no one</font> understands we're not evolved to understand it we're not evolved to<font color="#CCCCCC"> use</font> it we don't<font color="#CCCCCC"> we can't interpret it plus</font> you're interacting with random strangers <font color="#CCCCCC">which is</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> something you never ever do and</font> it's never<font color="#E5E5E5"> the</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> same set</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> of random</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">strangers and you don't react to</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> Twitter</font> like<font color="#CCCCCC"> it's random strangers Iraq to</font> Twitter like it's a person<font color="#CCCCCC"> that</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> you</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> know</font> and it<font color="#E5E5E5"> isn't you</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> right in 12 rules for</font> life about having had violent impulses <font color="#E5E5E5">that you didn't act on and I think</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> in</font> maps of meaning you elaborate on<font color="#CCCCCC"> that</font> you sabes fantasize about stabbing<font color="#CCCCCC"> a</font> classmate<font color="#E5E5E5"> in the neck and you</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> submit</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">you're</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> very clear</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> about the fact that</font> you you know you've<font color="#CCCCCC"> never ever thought</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">you would</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> take those</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> seriously but</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> it</font> just<font color="#CCCCCC"> does make me</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> think whether or not</font> are you<font color="#E5E5E5"> somebody who thrives on anger</font> who finds anger to be<font color="#E5E5E5"> something</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> that</font> they need in<font color="#E5E5E5"> their life that they find</font> motivates them to<font color="#E5E5E5"> do the things</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> that</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">they need</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> to do those are two different</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">questions okay</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> you can answer them but</font> one is whether<font color="#E5E5E5"> I thrive on</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> it then the</font> answer to<font color="#E5E5E5"> that is most certainly</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> not so</font> I actually don't<font color="#E5E5E5"> like conflict</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">how are you ended up doing</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> this as a job</font> which is arguing<font color="#CCCCCC"> with people</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> right just</font> because<font color="#E5E5E5"> you know that's not my job</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> it's</font> not<font color="#CCCCCC"> to argue with people</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> okay so my job</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">is</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> to not do things that I</font> think I<font color="#E5E5E5"> should do right and my</font> government<font color="#E5E5E5"> made the mistake of assuming</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">that compelled speech was acceptable as</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">long as motivated by hypothetical</font> compassion<font color="#CCCCCC"> and that's not happen</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> for me</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">so I made that point it wasn't because I</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">wanted to or</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> because I enjoyed it I</font> don't really<font color="#E5E5E5"> like conflict I'm actually</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">a rather agreeable person which is</font> partly why<font color="#CCCCCC"> I'm a clinician</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> and so I find</font> the the constant conflict<font color="#E5E5E5"> exhausting but</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">that's not the issue</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> and you're not</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">morally obligated you're morally</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">obligated to do things other</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> than that</font> which<font color="#E5E5E5"> you like so now I really</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> do enjoy</font> the<font color="#CCCCCC"> lecture series</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> that I'm doing</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> and</font> the reason<font color="#CCCCCC"> for that is that it's not</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">political in its essence I'm trying to</font> do everything<font color="#E5E5E5"> I can to bring people who</font> are trying<font color="#E5E5E5"> to develop a vision for their</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">life</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> together and to encourage them</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> to</font> act more responsibly but but not in a finger wagging sort of way<font color="#E5E5E5"> but because</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> I</font> come to understand that<font color="#E5E5E5"> the meaning</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> that</font> sustains you in life<font color="#E5E5E5"> is mostly to be</font> found through<font color="#E5E5E5"> responsibility and through</font> the voluntary adoption of<font color="#E5E5E5"> responsibility</font> you're very likely<font color="#E5E5E5"> to</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> find your</font> fundamental strength<font color="#E5E5E5"> and I think that</font> that's clinically unassailable <font color="#E5E5E5">observation</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> and so and that's all</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> very</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">good and I'm very</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> pleased to be doing it</font> and it seems to<font color="#CCCCCC"> be having a salutary</font> effect as far<font color="#CCCCCC"> as I can</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> tell and but but</font> it's<font color="#E5E5E5"> not because I thrive on anger I</font> mean you were at my<font color="#E5E5E5"> show what - on</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">Thursday night yeah</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> how</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> much anger was</font> there in<font color="#E5E5E5"> there well I thought it was</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">fascinating</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> because it was in Long</font> Island I drove we drove to it and we<font color="#E5E5E5"> went past</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">a Lamborghini dealership</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> a Porsche</font> dealership<font color="#E5E5E5"> this is not a poor area the</font> audience was I would<font color="#E5E5E5"> say very</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> liked as I</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">was surprised how many women</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> there was</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">pretty</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> mix it was overwhelmingly white</font> and I thought you talked you know<font color="#E5E5E5"> you</font> said<font color="#CCCCCC"> that we ni there's more</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> incoherent</font> than I<font color="#CCCCCC"> normally am you ranged across</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">quite a range of subjects</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> from you know</font> status in monkeys to perception<font color="#E5E5E5"> but</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> the</font> things<font color="#E5E5E5"> that the crowd clapped and they</font> applauded<font color="#E5E5E5"> where you where you went</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> oh</font> you can't say that that's a <font color="#E5E5E5">microaggression</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> or multiculturalism is a</font> you<font color="#E5E5E5"> know it's discouraged that is</font> sweeping<font color="#E5E5E5"> Canada</font> and what I got<font color="#E5E5E5"> was</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> the strong scent</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> that</font> has swept Canada<font color="#E5E5E5"> okay well what I got</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">was a very strong sense of people whose</font> lives<font color="#E5E5E5"> ever said that it was a scourge</font> that<font color="#E5E5E5"> swept Canada either I wouldn't have</font> said that<font color="#CCCCCC"> okay well sure I will go back</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">and check your exact wording what you</font> said but<font color="#E5E5E5"> you</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> definitely not in favor of</font> it as a fundamental<font color="#CCCCCC"> doctrine right I</font> don't<font color="#E5E5E5"> think it's a scourge so I wonder</font> if<font color="#E5E5E5"> you and I didn't mean the same thing</font> when<font color="#E5E5E5"> we talk</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> about multiculturalism</font> because you have a First Nations<font color="#E5E5E5"> room in</font> your house right you have a lot of First <font color="#CCCCCC">Nations stuff how is the coexistence of</font> the honorary<font color="#E5E5E5"> member of a First Nations</font> family<font color="#CCCCCC"> isn't it wonderful I have a First</font> Nations artist and when I'm from<font color="#E5E5E5"> when I</font> went to<font color="#CCCCCC"> Canada last year but that</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> to</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> me</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">is</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> the essence of Canadian</font> multiculturalism living that culture being<font color="#E5E5E5"> preserved and living alongside the</font> Anglophone culture that in some sense is supplanted it<font color="#E5E5E5"> how is that not</font> multiculturalism well multiculturalism is the idea that <font color="#E5E5E5">the cultures can all be put together in</font> a<font color="#E5E5E5"> single place with no overarching</font> structure<font color="#E5E5E5"> or undergirding structures</font> like that's not<font color="#E5E5E5"> the</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> case how</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> can that</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">possibly be the case that defines the</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">situation in the world</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> and the world is</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">full of war so how does the how can that</font> possibly work if you're<font color="#E5E5E5"> going to bring</font> people<font color="#CCCCCC"> together</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> and they're going to be</font> and they're going to exist together in <font color="#E5E5E5">harmony</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">they have to be playing a game</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> that</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">everyone plays that everyone knows the</font> rules<font color="#E5E5E5"> for it can't be</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> ten different sets</font> of<font color="#E5E5E5"> rules for different people</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> how's it</font> going to<font color="#E5E5E5"> work</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> so it's</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> absolutely naive</font> to believe how if that worked<font color="#E5E5E5"> the world</font> wouldn't be full of war<font color="#E5E5E5"> well before we</font> had you know<font color="#E5E5E5"> multiculturalism we still</font> did<font color="#E5E5E5"> have war or</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> in fact war is</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> Steven</font> Pinker I'm sure you register even<font color="#E5E5E5"> pinger</font> says<font color="#E5E5E5"> you and this is the least violent</font> time in human history so something<font color="#E5E5E5"> is a</font> consequence<font color="#E5E5E5"> working</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> Oracle tyranny</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> well</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">if you think the</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> patriarch he's been</font> eroded over<font color="#E5E5E5"> the last hundred years maybe</font> that's what it's down to maybe<font color="#CCCCCC"> you could</font> give some credit<font color="#CCCCCC"> to it for that yeah I</font> actually didn't say that the patriarchy being eroded<font color="#CCCCCC"> well and you know because</font> you<font color="#E5E5E5"> don't believe it exists in the first</font> place fair enough but<font color="#E5E5E5"> I my definition of</font> multiculturalism is citizenship<font color="#E5E5E5"> based</font> right so you can be both Canadian<font color="#E5E5E5"> and</font> First<font color="#CCCCCC"> Nations you can be both québécois</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">and also Canadian you know what that</font> means<font color="#E5E5E5"> that everybody in the</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> multi</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">cultural milieu is one thing and another</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">they're all one thing and another</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> yeah</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">minister said</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> well there is no Canadian</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">identity</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> it's like well okay what is it</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">that unites us</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> well nothing we all</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">protect our cultures it's like well that</font> leads to war<font color="#CCCCCC"> okay it</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> doesn't only lead</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">to war obviously but</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> unless you have</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">people operating</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> within a shared</font> framework of perception and<font color="#E5E5E5"> value they</font> can't cooperate<font color="#CCCCCC"> and compete</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> peacefully</font> there's I<font color="#E5E5E5"> don't understand how that's</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">even a disputable topic that's how you</font> organize people<font color="#E5E5E5"> okay I I</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> think if that's</font> what he said<font color="#CCCCCC"> that's what Reno said that</font> is a dumb thing for the Prime Minister <font color="#CCCCCC">of Canada to say when you are Prime</font> Minister of<font color="#E5E5E5"> Canada</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> oh yeah you might you</font> might<font color="#E5E5E5"> say</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> that would agree much more</font> with what Barack<font color="#E5E5E5"> Obama said when he said</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">you know I'm trying</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> not to make her red</font> states America<font color="#E5E5E5"> or blue states America or</font> a white<font color="#CCCCCC"> America black mare I'm trying to</font> make a<font color="#CCCCCC"> united states wreck</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> and that to</font> me<font color="#CCCCCC"> the Democrats are very</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> good at that</font> well maybe they tried identity politics for the<font color="#E5E5E5"> last</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> 20 years well they've done</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">is inflamed</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> tribal tribal tendencies as</font> far as I can tell<font color="#CCCCCC"> so he could say</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> that</font> but it<font color="#E5E5E5"> isn't obvious that it's the case</font> and it's<font color="#E5E5E5"> not obvious</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> to me and</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> all</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> that</font> one of the<font color="#CCCCCC"> consequences of Barack</font> Obama's presidency was a reduction<font color="#CCCCCC"> in</font> racial<font color="#E5E5E5"> tension in the United States</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> no I</font> wouldn't agree with<font color="#CCCCCC"> that</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> either I</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> think</font> a lot of<font color="#E5E5E5"> people friend having</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> a black</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">college-educated</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> professor very alarming</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">and threatening to their</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> ideas is there</font> to stop them<font color="#CCCCCC"> from voting for him twice</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">no that is very</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> true but again</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> it's</font> fundamentally true right it's it's really<font color="#E5E5E5"> the crucial issue at hand here</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> no</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">but</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> he built</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> a big coalition of white</font> well-educated liberals and people of color<font color="#E5E5E5"> I mean none is that that is the</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">Democrats</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> alike</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> how do you explain the</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">rise of racial tension in the United</font> States then well I think it's caused<font color="#E5E5E5"> by</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">a lot of things not released in one of</font> which is the<font color="#E5E5E5"> Republican Party in flaming</font> it you<font color="#E5E5E5"> talk about the left plain</font> identity politics I<font color="#CCCCCC"> think the right play</font> identity politics<font color="#E5E5E5"> all the</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> time the right</font> doesn't<font color="#E5E5E5"> dominate the universities no but</font> it dominates<font color="#CCCCCC"> Donald Trump is president</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">so really stormy Trump is hardly a</font> typical Republican<font color="#E5E5E5"> no he</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> iced and</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> say</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">that he hosted for most of his life if I</font> remember correctly he was a Democrat right<font color="#E5E5E5"> I don't</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> think he's</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> going</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> to</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> blame</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">allegiance</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> tweet</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> wing</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> okay but I'm gonna</font> say the rest of the Republican Party are also quite happy<font color="#CCCCCC"> to play I</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> would say</font> white identity<font color="#E5E5E5"> politics they go they did</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">not dump him as their candidate when he</font> said<font color="#E5E5E5"> Mexicans they're not sending us</font> their<font color="#E5E5E5"> best people here they're rapists</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">right the whole idea of the United</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">States it said</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> I think a beautiful</font> all men are<font color="#CCCCCC"> created equal but it</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> meant</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">men and it meant specifically white men</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">women and black people could not vote</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">the US was founded on</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> identity politics</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">this</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> is not some new concept that</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> has</font> come along<font color="#E5E5E5"> in</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> the last 20 years</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> the</font> United States<font color="#CCCCCC"> wasn't</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> founded on ideas</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">yes it was that's absolutely absurd</font> proposition<font color="#CCCCCC"> the United</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> States was</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">founded</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> on the same principles that what</font> would you say that<font color="#E5E5E5"> that played their</font> powerful<font color="#E5E5E5"> role through the development of</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">English</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> democracy and that was nested</font> inside<font color="#E5E5E5"> the judeo-christian view that</font> fundamentally presumed that<font color="#CCCCCC"> both men</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> and</font> women were made in the image<font color="#E5E5E5"> of God and</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">that all people had divine value and it</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">took a long time for</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> that set of</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> ideas</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">to fully manifest itself in the</font> political<font color="#E5E5E5"> realm but</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> to</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> consider that a</font> manifestation<font color="#E5E5E5"> of identity politics is</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> I</font> I can't imagine why<font color="#CCCCCC"> you would possibly</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">do</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> that I don't</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> consider that a</font> manifestation<font color="#E5E5E5"> might enter politics</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> I</font> consider having a constitution<font color="#CCCCCC"> that says</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">only some people are citizens</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> to be a</font> manifestation<font color="#E5E5E5"> of identity politics well</font> what do you think<font color="#CCCCCC"> changed it across time</font> and<font color="#E5E5E5"> look let's get our</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> definitions</font> straight here you can't lump<font color="#E5E5E5"> all occurrences of non</font> equal<font color="#CCCCCC"> treatment into the category of</font> identity politics identity politics this <font color="#E5E5E5">is very specific thing it's really only</font> existed since the 1970s you can't go back<font color="#E5E5E5"> into 1770</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> and say that</font> the founders of the<font color="#CCCCCC"> American</font> Constitution<font color="#E5E5E5"> were playing identity</font> politics<font color="#E5E5E5"> my politics that was based on</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">identity that's my definition</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> of</font> identity<font color="#E5E5E5"> that's the</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> north the definition</font> of identity politics unless<font color="#E5E5E5"> you pay play</font> fast and<font color="#E5E5E5"> loose with the definition</font> identity politics is<font color="#E5E5E5"> something that's in</font> no one talked about<font color="#E5E5E5"> identity politics 20</font> years ago<font color="#E5E5E5"> or</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> 30 years ago it's a new</font> term<font color="#E5E5E5"> you can't say that people's</font> proclivity to identify with their group is identity politics<font color="#CCCCCC"> that's just</font> tribalism<font color="#CCCCCC"> and</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> that's like who knows how</font> old<font color="#CCCCCC"> that</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> is a million years old</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">five hundred thousand years old</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> and</font> you're gonna call tribalism identity politics<font color="#E5E5E5"> well that's not helpful if you</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">want to talk</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> about tribalism we could</font> talk<font color="#E5E5E5"> about tribalism but identity</font> politics is<font color="#E5E5E5"> something that's nested</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">inside a</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> particular political view of</font> the world<font color="#CCCCCC"> it's got a</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> Marxist basis and</font> it manifests<font color="#CCCCCC"> itself in post-modernism</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">and it emerged in the American unit</font> first in the 1970s and then has swept <font color="#E5E5E5">through the American</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> Universities</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> and</font> increasingly the rest of the West since then<font color="#E5E5E5"> that's identity politics if you</font> want to talk<font color="#CCCCCC"> about tribalism that's fine</font> I'm not<font color="#CCCCCC"> a fan of tribalism which is why</font> I don't<font color="#E5E5E5"> like the</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> identity politics types</font> and I don't care if<font color="#E5E5E5"> they're on the</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> right</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">or the left</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> I think the right wing use</font> of identity as<font color="#E5E5E5"> the primary marker for</font> human categorization is as<font color="#E5E5E5"> reprehensible</font> and dangerous as it<font color="#CCCCCC"> is on the</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> left my</font> problem with the left at the moment the fundamental problem with<font color="#E5E5E5"> the radical</font> left<font color="#E5E5E5"> is that they're hyper dominant in</font> academia<font color="#E5E5E5"> and that's not good</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">and</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> that's</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> not my</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> opinion</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> you can go and</font> look<font color="#E5E5E5"> at Jonathan</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> Heights data and see</font> for yourself and<font color="#CCCCCC"> he's as martyr to</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">person as you could hope to find and</font> probably less prone to<font color="#CCCCCC"> anger than me</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> and</font> I agree<font color="#CCCCCC"> with you I find a lot of</font> students phenomenally irritating but I would question how much power they have <font color="#E5E5E5">it's a contrast to the things I find</font> more worrying that happening in<font color="#E5E5E5"> the</font> world<font color="#E5E5E5"> today</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> right or</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> even the</font> professor's<font color="#E5E5E5"> right even for</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> 20 year-olds</font> don't<font color="#E5E5E5"> have that much power but they're</font> not<font color="#CCCCCC"> twenty forever</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">ten years</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> later they're thirty</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> and one</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">years later they're 40 right and</font> whatever<font color="#E5E5E5"> happens in the university</font> happens everywhere five years later<font color="#E5E5E5"> and</font> very very<font color="#E5E5E5"> sadly for people in my</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">politics left-wing politics what happens</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">people</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> as they get older</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> is that they</font> traditionally got more conservative so I <font color="#E5E5E5">don't think you can</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> make a case that the</font> the current<font color="#CCCCCC"> where</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> people</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> are where</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">they're twenty</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> today is actually</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> going</font> to be the ideology<font color="#E5E5E5"> that takes them all</font> the way<font color="#CCCCCC"> through their life that's</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> never</font> been<font color="#E5E5E5"> it'll be around long enough to do</font> plenty<font color="#E5E5E5"> of</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> damage like</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> it already is</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> okay</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">but even</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> if we accept</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> that</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> students and</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">their pomo professors</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> are</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> quite annoying</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">which i think is probably</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> I</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> agree</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">something I dunno</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> just annoying like</font> they're destroying<font color="#E5E5E5"> the universities and</font> that's not<font color="#E5E5E5"> a good</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> thing and they're</font> particularly destroying the social sciences<font color="#E5E5E5"> and the humanities the sciences</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">are saved so far but not for long</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">because the scientists in particular</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> are</font> terrible at politics<font color="#E5E5E5"> and the left-wing</font> activists are great at politics<font color="#E5E5E5"> and so</font> they'll win eventually<font color="#CCCCCC"> the</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> National</font> Science<font color="#CCCCCC"> Foundation is already</font> introducing diversity requirements for hiring<font color="#E5E5E5"> in mathematics and universities</font> it's like good<font color="#CCCCCC"> luck with that</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> that's not</font> going<font color="#CCCCCC"> to work there</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> are hardly</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> any</font> mathematical geniuses<font color="#CCCCCC"> if you start</font> putting<font color="#E5E5E5"> all sorts of</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> arbitrary</font> restrictions on their hiring<font color="#E5E5E5"> you're just</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">going to</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> not and you're going to end up</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">not</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">the ones that</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> there</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> are so besides I</font> totally<font color="#E5E5E5"> wasn't really because if you say</font> there were very few months<font color="#CCCCCC"> magical gene</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">molded</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> well I'm next year I'm gonna be</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> a</font> fellow Oxford University so I spend time talking<font color="#CCCCCC"> to academics I've talked to a</font> lot<font color="#CCCCCC"> of academics for</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> my book</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> I do agree</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">with you there is an illiberal strain</font> that<font color="#E5E5E5"> is sweeping</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> through a lot of</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">universities I don't</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> think it's an</font> existential<font color="#E5E5E5"> threat and I certainly don't</font> think it is to me the biggest<font color="#E5E5E5"> issue in</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">world politics today it's the one that I</font> would<font color="#E5E5E5"> choose personally what do you</font> think<font color="#E5E5E5"> is the</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> biggest issue</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> I think</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> that</font> the rise of<font color="#E5E5E5"> strongmen authoritarians</font> around the world is<font color="#CCCCCC"> very worrying and</font> that's one the reasons<font color="#E5E5E5"> I find the</font> subtitle<font color="#E5E5E5"> of your book</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">listen</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> editing because you're it's</font> called an antidote to<font color="#E5E5E5"> chaos</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> why</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> isn't it</font> an antidote to order which you<font color="#E5E5E5"> also say</font> in its excessive manifestations is bad <font color="#E5E5E5">well you can't write a book about</font> everything no no but you've specifically chosen antidote to chaos<font color="#E5E5E5"> so why is chaos</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">300 lectures online and I talked plenty</font> about the<font color="#E5E5E5"> pathology of order in those</font> lectures<font color="#E5E5E5"> okay</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> but I'm just a fan of</font> authoritarian strongmen that's for sure well that's<font color="#CCCCCC"> good but I do think that</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> the</font> way<font color="#CCCCCC"> that you talk about</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> order in the</font> book is something<font color="#E5E5E5"> that people will take</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">away</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> from it be</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> specific</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">okay so let me</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> think</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> the way that</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> you</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">talk</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> about natural dominance hierarchies</font> and<font color="#CCCCCC"> lobster's let's get on to</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> the</font> lobsters<font color="#E5E5E5"> because</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> I think</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> that the</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> thing</font> that<font color="#E5E5E5"> people take</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> away from that</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> is male</font> lobsters compete for female upstairs<font color="#E5E5E5"> and</font> that says something<font color="#CCCCCC"> about</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> society now</font> that's that men<font color="#E5E5E5"> need to be dominant in</font> in<font color="#E5E5E5"> society because if lobsters do it</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">then there</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> is something that we can read</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">about humans from there's nothing in</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">their chapter at all that suggests</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> that</font> the way that men should<font color="#CCCCCC"> succeed in human</font> hierarchies<font color="#E5E5E5"> is a consequence of the</font> exercise of power<font color="#CCCCCC"> there's</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> not one line</font> in that<font color="#E5E5E5"> entire book that's that claims</font> that<font color="#CCCCCC"> because it's not what I believe</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">most human hierarchies as already</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">pointed out our hierarchies of</font> competence<font color="#E5E5E5"> not</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> power okay so that's why</font> we don't<font color="#E5E5E5"> live</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> in a patriarchal</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> tyranny</font> and<font color="#E5E5E5"> so if you want to be a successful</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">man then you should be competent and</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">that will move you up to the</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> hierarchy</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">and</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> that will make</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> you attractive</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> and</font> for good reason<font color="#E5E5E5"> unless</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> you want an</font> incompetent mate which<font color="#E5E5E5"> is possible</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> and</font> and and happens<font color="#CCCCCC"> but</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> isn't something that</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">I would</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> recommend</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> people</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> will sometimes</font> choose an incompetent mate<font color="#E5E5E5"> because</font> they're intimidated<font color="#CCCCCC"> by competence</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> and so</font> they'll settle<font color="#CCCCCC"> for</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> someone who they</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">don't respect because they feel that</font> they can master them<font color="#E5E5E5"> and they won't be</font> intimidated<font color="#E5E5E5"> but it's not a recipe</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> for a</font> happy life<font color="#E5E5E5"> I can tell you that so there</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">isn't a line in</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> that chapter that talks</font> about power<font color="#E5E5E5"> as as as the proper means of</font> conducting<font color="#E5E5E5"> yourself in life</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> there's</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> not</font> a line in the<font color="#E5E5E5"> book and there's nothing</font> in<font color="#CCCCCC"> anything I've ever said that suggests</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">that okay no I'm so that it's really</font> important because<font color="#E5E5E5"> people have read this</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">chapter</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> and they make exactly the</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">argument</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> that</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> you make and it's a</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">misapprehension</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> so it's it's a</font> misapprehension<font color="#E5E5E5"> of the book okay but if</font> so<font color="#CCCCCC"> many people</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> are getting</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> the same</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> miss</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">out branching</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> could there are so many</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">people</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> than we're getting it there's</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> two</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">million people</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> that have bought the book</font> and there's a very<font color="#E5E5E5"> small handful of</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">people who have a particular</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> ideological</font> perspective who<font color="#CCCCCC"> enjoyed developing</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> that</font> perspective<font color="#E5E5E5"> because it indicates just</font> what sort of reprehensible individual I <font color="#CCCCCC">am but it has absolutely nothing</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> to do</font> with<font color="#E5E5E5"> what I wrote or what I've said or</font> what I believe<font color="#CCCCCC"> I don't believe that</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> our</font> fundamental hierarchies<font color="#CCCCCC"> are based on</font> power<font color="#CCCCCC"> I don't believe that the way that</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">you move up our hierarchies is as a</font> consequence<font color="#CCCCCC"> of manifesting power its</font> competence<font color="#CCCCCC"> okay</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> might be problem with</font> the lobsters is that it's scientifically <font color="#E5E5E5">bollocks</font> right it's<font color="#CCCCCC"> just you cannot read</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> across</font> from lobsters and what they do to<font color="#CCCCCC"> what</font> humans<font color="#CCCCCC"> share had that's why serotonin</font> works on lobsters<font color="#CCCCCC"> it was in two</font> different<font color="#CCCCCC"> ways so if serotonin makes a</font> lobsters more aggressive it makes you know<font color="#CCCCCC"> what makes</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> them less aggressive</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">right that's not that's not right</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> that</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">serotonin makes human beings more</font> dominant<font color="#E5E5E5"> but less aggressive and the</font> only reason it<font color="#E5E5E5"> makes the more dominant</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">is because they're</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> less irritable and</font> they're less defensively aggressive<font color="#CCCCCC"> so</font> it's not bollocks<font color="#CCCCCC"> I know my neuro</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">chemistry</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> so if you're gonna play in</font> neural chemistry let's go and do it<font color="#CCCCCC"> okay</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">we</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> use the antidepressants work on</font> lobsters yes they do<font color="#CCCCCC"> any make a lobster</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">that's been defeated in</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> a fight more</font> likely to fight again<font color="#E5E5E5"> that's not the</font> same mechanism<font color="#CCCCCC"> that that's the same</font> humans<font color="#E5E5E5"> depressed as the way the human</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> I</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">think your anthropomorphizing intuitive</font> ridiculous<font color="#E5E5E5"> degree these are creatures</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">that urinate out of their faces</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> I think</font> that the fundamental<font color="#E5E5E5"> issue among</font> knowledgeable animal behaviorists is that anthropomorphize ation with animals is generally<font color="#CCCCCC"> the appropriate tactic</font> unless you have reason to<font color="#E5E5E5"> doubt it</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> which</font> is because<font color="#CCCCCC"> there's continuity between</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> us</font> and animals rather<font color="#E5E5E5"> than discontinuity</font> and the idea<font color="#E5E5E5"> that the anthropomorphize</font> ation<font color="#E5E5E5"> of animals is inappropriate is</font> something<font color="#E5E5E5"> derived from nineteen</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">these behaviorism the</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> highly trained</font> effective neuroscientists and people who <font color="#E5E5E5">studied motivation and emotion as well</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">as neural chemistry know perfectly well</font> that<font color="#E5E5E5"> there is biological and</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> behavioral</font> continuity<font color="#E5E5E5"> across the animal kingdom</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> and</font> way<font color="#CCCCCC"> down</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> into the kingdom as well</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> which</font> is<font color="#E5E5E5"> exactly why I chose lobsters to</font> indicate<font color="#CCCCCC"> that there</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> is so much</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">continuity in the systems that allow us</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">to</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> estimate status position that we</font> share it<font color="#CCCCCC"> with creatures that are a third</font> of the billion years old and<font color="#CCCCCC"> the reason</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">that I made that argument was to</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> put</font> paid at<font color="#E5E5E5"> least</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> into part in part to the</font> absurd<font color="#E5E5E5"> Marxist proposition that</font> hierarchical structures are a secondary <font color="#E5E5E5">consequence of Western</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> civilization and</font> free market economies<font color="#E5E5E5"> which is as</font> preposterous<font color="#CCCCCC"> a perspective as you</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> could</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">possibly develop</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> about anything</font> hierarchies are<font color="#E5E5E5"> third of a billion years</font> old<font color="#CCCCCC"> you can't blame them</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> on the</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> West</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> or</font> men or<font color="#E5E5E5"> capitalism and we're wired for</font> hierarchical perception in ways that<font color="#E5E5E5"> you</font> can hardly possibly imagine<font color="#E5E5E5"> even our</font> ability to<font color="#E5E5E5"> rank order</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> a set</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> of objects</font> seems to be<font color="#E5E5E5"> tightly linked</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> to our</font> ability<font color="#CCCCCC"> to assess the relative status</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> of</font> people<font color="#CCCCCC"> in our in our social millou's so</font> and the<font color="#CCCCCC"> biochemistry is very very</font> similar<font color="#E5E5E5"> and the reason we know that is</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">because most</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> of the drugs that are used</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">on people are first tested on animals</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">now it's not often</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> animals as primitive</font> as lobsters but it is plenty<font color="#E5E5E5"> so a lot of</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">what we know</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> about neurological</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">structure for example</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> is a</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> consequence</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">of studying the flat room worm which is</font> much more primitive organism than the lobster continuities they is the rule <font color="#CCCCCC">okay so what</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> can we learn</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> from killer</font> whales that live in matriarchal pods often led by a grandmother someone who's been<font color="#E5E5E5"> through a menopause why isn't</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> that</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">an example</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> you pick</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> to talk about in the</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">book it's because lobsters say the thing</font> ideologically you want to talk<font color="#CCCCCC"> about</font> which is<font color="#E5E5E5"> your belief that there is a</font> kind<font color="#CCCCCC"> of Marxist ideology to say that the</font> point<font color="#E5E5E5"> that I was</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> making</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> the point</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> that I</font> was<font color="#CCCCCC"> making with lobsters</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> I just said</font> what it was that hierarchies have been <font color="#E5E5E5">thrown</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> for</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> who genuinely really today is</font> arguing apart from maybe<font color="#E5E5E5"> three mad</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">Marxist academics that there is no such</font> thing as hierarchy hierarchies<font color="#CCCCCC"> they're</font> not they're not<font color="#CCCCCC"> that there's no such</font> thing as hard oh there's anything as hierarchies<font color="#CCCCCC"> oh they're plenty of them</font> argue really<font color="#E5E5E5"> because</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> I see</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> that almost</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> never</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">in the wild as an as an argument</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">I see people think that hierarchy</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> should</font> be based<font color="#E5E5E5"> on</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> merit and they say what do</font> you<font color="#E5E5E5"> call the demand for equality of</font> outcome is if it's<font color="#E5E5E5"> not an attempt to</font> flatten hierarchies<font color="#E5E5E5"> or to have to</font> eliminate<font color="#E5E5E5"> them</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> what else</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> could it</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">possibly be</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> and you don't think the</font> neo-marxists and the postmodernist think that hierarchy is a social construction <font color="#CCCCCC">okay you're</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> not talking</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> about</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> the same</font> people<font color="#CCCCCC"> that I know that's</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> for sure</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> and</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">everything's a social construction for</font> the social constructionist<font color="#E5E5E5"> including</font> hierarchies<font color="#E5E5E5"> but I just don't</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> think that</font> is a very<font color="#E5E5E5"> widely held view in the world</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">it might be much liberal a percent</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> 20</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">percent of social scientists identify as</font> Marxist<font color="#E5E5E5"> and</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> abandoned that statistic</font> from look it up<font color="#E5E5E5"> but look it up in in</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">Heights work okay you know I'm</font> interested<font color="#E5E5E5"> I know I've checked it out</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">quite yeah yeah I'm just I'm perfectly</font> valid statistic I don't have the reference<font color="#CCCCCC"> at hand yeah</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> so it's one in</font> five<font color="#E5E5E5"> and</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> they're the the number of</font> conservatives or even liberals for that matter in the<font color="#E5E5E5"> social sciences and</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">humanities is not only vanishingly small</font> but<font color="#E5E5E5"> getting smaller and you think the</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">social constructionist believe that</font> hierarchy is built into biology<font color="#CCCCCC"> they're</font> not very<font color="#CCCCCC"> good social construction is if</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">that was if that's what they believe</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> and</font> the post modernists<font color="#E5E5E5"> and the neo-marxists</font> are radical social constructionist <font color="#E5E5E5">because they wouldn't</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> believe that</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> human</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">beings are infinitely</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> malleable and and</font> and that we can be recreated in in whatever<font color="#E5E5E5"> image the ideologue might want</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">to recreate us in if they didn't think</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">that</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> and it's much more prevalent</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> than</font> you're admitting<font color="#E5E5E5"> I mean</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> there</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> there</font> isn't<font color="#CCCCCC"> a competing position on campuses</font> except among the evolutionary biologists and<font color="#E5E5E5"> the evolutionary psychologists let's</font> say and they're under a complete attack <font color="#E5E5E5">they're certainly next on the chopping</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">block as far as I can</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> tell</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> I've been</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">warning them for the last two</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> years</font> social constructionist don't like evolutionary psychologists and they don't like biology<font color="#E5E5E5"> and I I really don't</font> understand why<font color="#E5E5E5"> except that it interferes</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">with this idea that human</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> beings are</font> infinitely malleable<font color="#E5E5E5"> and stops them from</font> being<font color="#CCCCCC"> able to</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> blame hierarchy on the</font> West<font color="#E5E5E5"> look if you're</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> really</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> concerned</font> about<font color="#E5E5E5"> the poor as</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> a social democrat</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">let's say the first thing you</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> should do</font> is abandon your presupposition that<font color="#E5E5E5"> the</font> dispossession produced by hierarchies is a consequence of<font color="#E5E5E5"> the patriarchal</font> structure of the<font color="#E5E5E5"> West</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> it's a way deeper</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">problem than</font> so<font color="#CCCCCC"> there'd be maybe</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> dispossessed forever</font> way before capitalism<font color="#E5E5E5"> okay</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> I think I</font> would agree<font color="#CCCCCC"> with that</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> so if if it is way</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">deeper problem than that's how do you</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">tackle it</font> I don't know<font color="#E5E5E5"> well that's</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> a bit I mean</font> that for<font color="#E5E5E5"> someone who's intelligent you</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">that</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> just throw their hands up and</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> go</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">maybe</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> something</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> lots of things I don't</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">hold tackle I don't know how to</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> tackle</font> the fact<font color="#E5E5E5"> that people range range</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">extremely widely</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> in</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> their cognitive</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">ability either these are big problems</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">but we can start</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> with a register beauty</font> of tax policy right where<font color="#E5E5E5"> people who</font> earn a lot pay more tax than<font color="#E5E5E5"> people</font> lower down the income<font color="#CCCCCC"> scale to reduce</font> treat income that was<font color="#E5E5E5"> a fairly obvious</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">way that</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> you could make poor people less</font> poor it's something that you know the <font color="#CCCCCC">Labour government did they</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> almost I</font> think<font color="#CCCCCC"> they have child poverty</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> it is</font> possible<font color="#CCCCCC"> to do</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> things and we do have</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">mechanism well I wouldn't</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> I wouldn't</font> make the immediate presumption<font color="#E5E5E5"> that it</font> was the redistribute of tax<font color="#E5E5E5"> policy</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> that</font> have child poverty<font color="#E5E5E5"> you know</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> that</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">absolute poverty in the world has halved</font> between<font color="#CCCCCC"> near 2000</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> and 2012 and you can't</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">attribute that to redistributive</font> policies<font color="#E5E5E5"> no I can't how many talking</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">about Britain on took him in that</font> particular government which had you know then there are fiscal analysis that have been done but I<font color="#E5E5E5"> think let's move on from</font> from lobsters<font color="#E5E5E5"> I mean in</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> that</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> chapter is</font> about people becoming responsible<font color="#E5E5E5"> and</font> confident<font color="#E5E5E5"> not about them becoming like</font> dominant and powerful<font color="#CCCCCC"> okay not at all</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">but my problem</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> is I think</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> you got</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">criticized by a lot of marine biologists</font> by and by a lot of<font color="#E5E5E5"> geneticists</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> for one</font> okay well I can name it PZ Myers is one who's criticized you<font color="#CCCCCC"> I'm Adam Rutherford</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">who's former editor of</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> nature</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> as</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">criticize that chapter</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> there</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> are you</font> know<font color="#E5E5E5"> that is not</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> but what I</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> think</font> biologists dispute the fact that<font color="#E5E5E5"> most or</font> organisms<font color="#E5E5E5"> organize themselves into</font> hierarchies and that the fundamental biological mechanism<font color="#E5E5E5"> for the regulation</font> of hierarchy is the serotonin system <font color="#E5E5E5">that's not disputable now you can find</font> animal organizational structures that vary<font color="#CCCCCC"> from that from that what would</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> you</font> call it fundamental pattern but the existence of<font color="#E5E5E5"> variants isn't proof</font> against the existence of a fundamental pattern<font color="#E5E5E5"> like I don't I don't know how</font> you can sit<font color="#E5E5E5"> there</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> and be skeptical about</font> this if you know the<font color="#E5E5E5"> literature on</font> hierarchical structure you understand that across the entire animal kingdom animals tend to<font color="#CCCCCC"> organize themselves into</font> hierarchies<font color="#CCCCCC"> and at the neural chemistry</font> different types<font color="#CCCCCC"> of hierarchies right so</font> there's up you<font color="#E5E5E5"> haven't</font> we know they're hiring yeah but the putt like you say the<font color="#E5E5E5"> pattern is if that you</font> know<font color="#E5E5E5"> the hierarchy is the pattern right</font> okay<font color="#E5E5E5"> and that's fine</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> so chimps have one</font> very obvious<font color="#E5E5E5"> social structure and</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">bonobos</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> haven't it's not as different as</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">people have made it out to</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> be the</font> bonobos are<font color="#CCCCCC"> a lot more violent than the</font> right<font color="#CCCCCC"> and then you'd be much slower</font> right observers of the bonobos have admitted<font color="#CCCCCC"> okay but nonetheless you say</font> that as if the<font color="#CCCCCC"> deep lows</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> these little</font> details<font color="#CCCCCC"> don't matter is if there can't</font> be such<font color="#E5E5E5"> a</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> thing</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> as a hierarchy that is</font> much worse<font color="#E5E5E5"> than another okay that's why</font> I understand that at all there's clearly hierarchies that<font color="#E5E5E5"> are worse than other</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">right baboons have terrible hierarchies</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">for example animation radical</font> hierarchies aren't my cup<font color="#E5E5E5"> of tea</font> that isn't<font color="#CCCCCC"> the point I was making the</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">point I was making</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> was that</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> hierarchies</font> can't be blamed<font color="#E5E5E5"> on capitalism or</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> the</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">West they're built into our biology</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> that</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">the neural the neural chemistry is so</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">old that we share it with with</font> crustaceans so that's a third<font color="#CCCCCC"> of a</font> billion years<font color="#E5E5E5"> which is the proof that</font> hierarchies aren't a recent constructive proof like that needs to<font color="#CCCCCC"> be needed</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> needs</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">to be provided and</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> that the best way for</font> people<font color="#CCCCCC"> to adopt</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> a strategy</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> that</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> will</font> move them up the hierarchy<font color="#E5E5E5"> which</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> is a</font> desirable<font color="#CCCCCC"> thing in most regards</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> is to</font> face<font color="#CCCCCC"> the suffering of the</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> world</font> forthrightly<font color="#E5E5E5"> that's what that chapter is</font> about<font color="#CCCCCC"> and the people who've been</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">criticizing it read it as if it's a</font> defense of the Western patriarchy<font color="#CCCCCC"> it's</font> like there's there's no defense of the <font color="#E5E5E5">Western</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> I</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> drug I don't know it's true</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> I</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">think the way that people</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> criticize it</font> is the and I<font color="#E5E5E5"> think this happens</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> a lot</font> with<font color="#E5E5E5"> evolutionary psychology is a which</font> is<font color="#CCCCCC"> not</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> quite what the lobsters are but</font> is where other stuff in the<font color="#E5E5E5"> book is</font> other things<font color="#E5E5E5"> you said for</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> example like</font> women wear Rouge because<font color="#E5E5E5"> it reminds men</font> of ripe fruit<font color="#E5E5E5"> right well first time do</font> you<font color="#E5E5E5"> think women wear Rouge</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> I have</font> absolutely no idea<font color="#E5E5E5"> right</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> okay that's</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">really not a</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> very</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> good</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> answer well yeah</font> you said<font color="#E5E5E5"> before there were a lot of</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">things you don't know the answer to</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> but</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">I</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> tell you</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> I think you're I'm most</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> right</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">sizing your perspective on this you're</font> criticizing mine so<font color="#CCCCCC"> I mean</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> alternative</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">idea what women why do you think</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> where</font> women wear makeup<font color="#E5E5E5"> they're enormous not</font> let me let's let's go back<font color="#CCCCCC"> to why women</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">marriage because it reminds men of not</font> ripe fruit<font color="#E5E5E5"> okay first of all not all</font> ripe fruit is red<font color="#CCCCCC"> why would you</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> want</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">color vision to detect ripe fruit do you</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">want to eat women no I</font> unless men<font color="#CCCCCC"> having sex</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> marries them</font> that's not<font color="#E5E5E5"> really where and where is the</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">evidence that</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> women who</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> are redder in</font> the cheeks are more have more<font color="#E5E5E5"> offspring</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">what do you think happens during</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> that</font> sexual flush<font color="#E5E5E5"> but that's the key point</font> isn't<font color="#E5E5E5"> it is that you would expect</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">actually if this</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> is a sexual selection</font> that<font color="#E5E5E5"> women who are ready</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> for</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> children</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">we've got progressively ready</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> by the</font> time hallmarks of youthful skin is the <font color="#E5E5E5">proclivity for it to flush red</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> and yes</font> use youthful women have more children <font color="#E5E5E5">it's a primary sign of fertility that I</font> think<font color="#CCCCCC"> your wait a second here</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> what do</font> you<font color="#CCCCCC"> think</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> women wear makeup</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> for</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> come on</font> if you're gonna<font color="#E5E5E5"> go after me on this</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> okay</font> let's let's let women<font color="#CCCCCC"> people say well</font> women wear makeup<font color="#E5E5E5"> to feel better about</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">themselves that's not very deep analysis</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">why make up a facial makeup</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> I'll tell</font> you why<font color="#E5E5E5"> I'm wear makeup which is</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> to stop</font> the comments that are<font color="#E5E5E5"> again if I didn't</font> wear makeup <font color="#CCCCCC">am i gender I always say my gender is</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">low maintenance right</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> I don't</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> particular</font> particularly<font color="#E5E5E5"> like a woman inside I don't</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">really know what</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> that would mean</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> but</font> what I<font color="#CCCCCC"> try and do</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> is try and look you</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">know in the same way that you get black</font> women<font color="#E5E5E5"> you talk about the problem with</font> natural hair is it seen as <font color="#CCCCCC">unprofessional right</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> and as a woman</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> if</font> you<font color="#CCCCCC"> don't wear makeup that</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> is seen as a</font> political choice<font color="#E5E5E5"> that is seen as</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">something that</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> you know you want so you</font> wear<font color="#E5E5E5"> makeup to protect yourself from</font> from what from judging men<font color="#CCCCCC"> but in achill</font> women as well I would say I<font color="#E5E5E5"> think women</font> don't very harshly judged each other's appearance and there<font color="#E5E5E5"> are very good</font> reasons for<font color="#E5E5E5"> that</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">probably because</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> they've learned</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> that</font> from oppressive men<font color="#E5E5E5"> no I don't think so</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">I don't why</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> do you think</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> it is then I</font> think<font color="#CCCCCC"> that women are encouraged</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> to be</font> seen as being<font color="#CCCCCC"> in competition with each</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">other</font> encouraged you don't think that<font color="#E5E5E5"> there's</font> anything<font color="#E5E5E5"> about that that's naturally</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">well I would be reluctant to get into</font> that<font color="#CCCCCC"> because I think</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> you could talk</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">about sexual intrasexual competition and</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">that's a very big deal among the social</font> sciences<font color="#CCCCCC"> and evolutionary science it's</font> not<font color="#CCCCCC"> my particular</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> competence but yeah I</font> wouldn't my<font color="#E5E5E5"> conception the patriarchy is</font> not that men are beastly to women it is <font color="#E5E5E5">that there is a structure</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> in which women</font> participate<font color="#E5E5E5"> to that overall privileges</font> and benefits men in order<font color="#E5E5E5"> to control</font> female reproduction<font color="#E5E5E5"> and I think</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> those</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">are two very different things you</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> write</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">in</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> twelve roles that</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> you skipped a grade</font> in school and you were small for your age do you think that shaped your personality in<font color="#CCCCCC"> your experiences of life</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">I did to some degree made it difficult</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">for</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> me to participate</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> in sports</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">I didn't really do anything</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> that</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> was</font> fundamentally<font color="#E5E5E5"> athletic till I was in</font> graduate<font color="#E5E5E5"> school</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> so my parents are guilty</font> about that because<font color="#E5E5E5"> they felt that it</font> wasn't<font color="#E5E5E5"> good for me but I'm not unhappy</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">about</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> it I go through</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> school faster I</font> wasn't a fan of school and the faster I got to it<font color="#E5E5E5"> the better</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> I think it might</font> have encouraged me<font color="#E5E5E5"> to do two other</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">things which was I probably hung around</font> with rougher kids that I might<font color="#E5E5E5"> have</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">otherwise as</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> a</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> partly as a compensation</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">I suppose for being smart and</font> academically<font color="#CCCCCC"> able and also small so I</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">probably exaggerated my roughness I</font> suppose and it made<font color="#E5E5E5"> me more verbally</font> more capable of verbally defending myself<font color="#E5E5E5"> but other than</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> that I don't</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> think</font> it had much<font color="#CCCCCC"> of an effect</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> I think</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> I</font> pretty much left all of that behind <font color="#E5E5E5">that's very good</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">oh so on the other thing I was really</font> interested<font color="#CCCCCC"> in was that</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> you married your</font> teenage sweetheart<font color="#CCCCCC"> mm-hmm yeah well I</font> met her when<font color="#E5E5E5"> I</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> was</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> eight</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> so we've</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> known</font> each other for 50 years<font color="#CCCCCC"> yeah</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> so this is</font> I<font color="#CCCCCC"> think</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> really fascinating so I read</font> that and<font color="#E5E5E5"> I thought that</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> was</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> quite moving</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">and then I was reading</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> the bit about um</font> you know the animal kingdom and<font color="#E5E5E5"> it's bit</font> free take away from the<font color="#CCCCCC"> lobster section</font> is that<font color="#CCCCCC"> you know what happens if your</font> top<font color="#E5E5E5"> Lobster is that you get to</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">impregnate all the female so that as</font> being evolutionary successful as a lobster<font color="#E5E5E5"> right um</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> your that's proclivity</font> towards polygamy<font color="#E5E5E5"> which</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> is one</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> of the</font> things that pulls on human society<font color="#CCCCCC"> all</font> right and<font color="#CCCCCC"> you're now</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> the pretty big</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">lobster and yet you are monogamous</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">you're</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> faithful to your wife you don't</font> you know<font color="#E5E5E5"> you don't want to go around</font> impregnating every woman<font color="#E5E5E5"> that you see</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">right no no</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> woman trouble</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> right so so I</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">think that's</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> really to me that was</font> really<font color="#E5E5E5"> interesting because that's a way</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">in which</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> we</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> are very obviously</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> very</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">different from</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> Animal Society</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> and tomato</font> takes that different I mean<font color="#E5E5E5"> there there</font> are plenty<font color="#E5E5E5"> of societies where</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> exactly</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">that happens right</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> but you've been</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> able</font> to overcome<font color="#CCCCCC"> that biological urge</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> right</font> and so in the sense that maybe<font color="#E5E5E5"> there are</font> other biological<font color="#E5E5E5"> urge such as men's</font> propensity towards violence that<font color="#E5E5E5"> might</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">also be overcome well it's not</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">self-evident that you want it to be</font> overcome<font color="#CCCCCC"> I mean you don't know what goes</font> along<font color="#E5E5E5"> with</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> it you know I</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> mean</font> obviously first<font color="#E5E5E5"> of all defining violence</font> isn't<font color="#E5E5E5"> that straightforward</font> how about use<font color="#CCCCCC"> of force in self-defense</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">does that</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> constitute violence</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> I think to</font> me<font color="#E5E5E5"> that's a separate category well but</font> it's not<font color="#E5E5E5"> that</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> easy to distinguish them</font> like if<font color="#CCCCCC"> you're what what you want to do</font> with a child who's aggressive<font color="#E5E5E5"> is</font> socialize them so that they<font color="#E5E5E5"> become</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">sophisticated in their manifestation of</font> their aggression<font color="#CCCCCC"> you don't want to</font> inhibit<font color="#E5E5E5"> it you certainly don't want</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> to</font> socialize little boys to be more like little<font color="#E5E5E5"> girls that's first</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> of all you</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">don't know how to do it to begin</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> with</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">but second of</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> all it's not very it's</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> not</font> an advisable strategy so well I find that really<font color="#CCCCCC"> really interesting because</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">in the</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> book you say that</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> HT</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> if you</font> feminized men that might give<font color="#E5E5E5"> them more</font> of<font color="#E5E5E5"> having more of an allure towards you</font> know there's very fascist about that that's that's standard psychoanalytic that's like psychoanalysis 101<font color="#E5E5E5"> if you</font> repress something it<font color="#E5E5E5"> comes back with a</font> vengeance<font color="#CCCCCC"> okay so tell me</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> what</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> you</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> mean</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">by feminizing in that sense because to</font> me if you don't<font color="#E5E5E5"> mind</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> me</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> saying so</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> you</font> are a<font color="#E5E5E5"> man</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> who is quite</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> feminine you are</font> in touch<font color="#CCCCCC"> with your feminine side you are</font> very<font color="#CCCCCC"> well-dressed</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> you talk a lot</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> about</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">you die you've talked about your</font> emotions<font color="#E5E5E5"> you're talking about my diet</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">right but you cry in public you you</font> enjoy<font color="#E5E5E5"> spending time with</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> your kids you</font> know all<font color="#CCCCCC"> of</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> these things that are much</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">no no sad isn't</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> it</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> but they're not</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">stereotypically male and I think that's</font> very admirable<font color="#CCCCCC"> pretty strange behavior</font> for a patriarchal tyrant<font color="#E5E5E5"> well that's why</font> I<font color="#CCCCCC"> think that you're</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> probably in some</font> ways you're not a patriarchal tyrant <font color="#CCCCCC">although</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> actually all</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> of our programming</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">if you want to call it that in biology</font> is<font color="#CCCCCC"> it's</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> overcome a</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> ball</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> because you</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> are</font> not integratable<font color="#E5E5E5"> right but you are a man</font> who some<font color="#CCCCCC"> people would say has a lot of</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">feminine traits like that and I don't do</font> you think that means that<font color="#E5E5E5"> you are now</font> being in the allure of authoritarian fascistic ideologies because you've you <font color="#CCCCCC">know you're baking cakes oh I notice the</font> allure<font color="#E5E5E5"> and then what do you do with that</font> work to live such that there's<font color="#E5E5E5"> no</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">temptation in that which is also what I</font> recommend to<font color="#CCCCCC"> everyone else</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> right if you</font> see any temptation in that then you should<font color="#E5E5E5"> straighten yourself up real quick</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">so and that's what I've done for</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> decades</font> so of course you have<font color="#E5E5E5"> to see the allure</font> in that if you<font color="#E5E5E5"> don't see the allure in</font> that you're a fool<font color="#E5E5E5"> just like if you</font> don't<font color="#CCCCCC"> see the allure in the radical</font> leftist ideas<font color="#CCCCCC"> I mean if they didn't have</font> if if you didn't understand the allure you <font color="#E5E5E5">couldn't understand the ideas they're</font> dangerously alluring you know it would <font color="#E5E5E5">be lovely</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> if there was a strong man who</font> could<font color="#E5E5E5"> solve all our problems and those</font> who deserved it got<font color="#E5E5E5"> exactly what was</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">coming to</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> them it's not something</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> that I</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">would</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> recommend as a wish</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> so but</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> that</font> doesn't<font color="#E5E5E5"> mean you you know you want to be</font> blind to<font color="#E5E5E5"> its attraction you want to see</font> what the dark parts of you are<font color="#CCCCCC"> attracted</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">to</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> it helps you keep an eye</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> on where</font> things<font color="#E5E5E5"> can go if they go badly sideways</font> so I don't<font color="#E5E5E5"> think it has anything to do</font> though with my with<font color="#E5E5E5"> my what would you</font> say more classically feminine interests not<font color="#E5E5E5"> as far as I can tell I mean I have</font> all<font color="#E5E5E5"> sorts of classically masculine</font> interests<font color="#E5E5E5"> too so right and it seems</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> to</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">be reasonably well balanced all right so</font> you<font color="#E5E5E5"> talking about socially efficient</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">socialized little boys like little girls</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">but actually you know I have lots of</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">starett</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> I'm interested in politics which</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">is</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> overwhelmingly male-dominated</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> you</font> have lots of classically feminine interests why we know what is<font color="#E5E5E5"> the</font> problem<font color="#E5E5E5"> here with people</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> having</font> personalities<font color="#E5E5E5"> that are a mixture</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> that</font> there's no problem with<font color="#CCCCCC"> that at all</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> the</font> problem is when it's dictated<font color="#E5E5E5"> by Fiat</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">well</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> I mean who's who's Fiat about the</font> education system<font color="#CCCCCC"> so</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> in</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> in in schools</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> you</font> think you know<font color="#E5E5E5"> that there is a lie</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">outlined</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> I can't remember the</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">psychologists name at the moment</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> but he</font> was<font color="#E5E5E5"> quite influential in the 1980s who</font> recommended as a control for male violence<font color="#E5E5E5"> that boys be socialized more</font> like<font color="#E5E5E5"> little girls and I</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> don't</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> think that</font> that's a<font color="#CCCCCC"> particularly unpopular</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">viewpoint so on that the the emphasis on</font> competition for<font color="#E5E5E5"> example in in games</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> the</font> increase in in in<font color="#E5E5E5"> the rise of</font> competitive games where scores<font color="#E5E5E5"> aren't</font> kept that sort of thing is<font color="#E5E5E5"> all a</font> manifestation<font color="#E5E5E5"> of that kind of theory as</font> far as I'm concerned the idea that <font color="#E5E5E5">there's</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> something intrinsically</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> wrong</font> with competition<font color="#E5E5E5"> it's a very foolish</font> idea especially<font color="#CCCCCC"> if you want to motivate</font> relatively aggressive<font color="#CCCCCC"> boys</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> because</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">they're competitive while competition</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">that's not good someone has to lose it's</font> like well you're not gonna<font color="#E5E5E5"> get</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> very far</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">looking at the world that</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> way I'm afraid</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">you know maybe you want</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> to generate a</font> plethora<font color="#E5E5E5"> of games so</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> that everybody</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> has</font> a shot<font color="#CCCCCC"> of</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> winning that's a good</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> idea but</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">you</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> surf ik</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> don't want to devalue the</font> notion of winning if you're<font color="#E5E5E5"> doing</font> something<font color="#E5E5E5"> necessary you should reward</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">people who are particularly good</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> at</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> it</font> it's part<font color="#E5E5E5"> of the definition</font> that being necessary<font color="#CCCCCC"> so and that the</font> continue don't want to control aggression<font color="#E5E5E5"> any more than you want to</font> control sex<font color="#E5E5E5"> you want</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> to integrate</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> it and</font> and if it's integrated that's the integration of<font color="#E5E5E5"> the shadow from</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> the</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> Union</font> perspective and something I<font color="#CCCCCC"> talked a</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> lot</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">about in my lectures it's like you need</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">to</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> have the capacity</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> for danger you need</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">to be dangerous but</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> you need</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> to learn</font> how<font color="#CCCCCC"> to not use</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> it except when it's</font> necessary<font color="#E5E5E5"> and that is not the</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> same as</font> being harmless harmless that's a terrible virtue<font color="#E5E5E5"> it's like a rabbit</font> there's nothing virtuous about harmlessness<font color="#CCCCCC"> it just means you're</font> ineffectual<font color="#CCCCCC"> I mean I think I would agree</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">well I think there are</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> some people</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> who</font> through the homelessness become iconic and they become symbols I think the <font color="#CCCCCC">Ghandi in</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> the principle of non-violence</font> not harmless he just transcended<font color="#CCCCCC"> his deep violence</font> that is completely<font color="#E5E5E5"> different thing</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> I</font> thought his without that capacity<font color="#E5E5E5"> there</font> would<font color="#E5E5E5"> have been no</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> way he would have had</font> the<font color="#CCCCCC"> strength</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> of character that he had he</font> was an<font color="#E5E5E5"> integrated person not a harmless</font> person<font color="#CCCCCC"> okay that's a very very different</font> thing<font color="#CCCCCC"> did you have different ambitions</font> for your daughter and for your son<font color="#E5E5E5"> some</font> of them were different<font color="#CCCCCC"> I encouraged my</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">daughter in her desire</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> to be a</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> mother</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">which is not something I did</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> with my son</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">did you encourage him in his desire</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> to</font> be<font color="#CCCCCC"> a father</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> absolutely</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> right</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> so you</font> encouraged both of them to<font color="#E5E5E5"> be a parent</font> right but those are different<font color="#E5E5E5"> yeah so I</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">know and yeah I mean and in some sense I</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">think it's it's harder for young women</font> because<font color="#CCCCCC"> of course the the problem of</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">integrating family with career is a more</font> complex problem<font color="#E5E5E5"> for women</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> to solve so</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">and I spend a lot</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> of time</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> talking to her</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">about how she might solve that I</font> wouldn't say that<font color="#CCCCCC"> we came up</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> with</font> anything<font color="#E5E5E5"> that was spectacularly original</font> or successful<font color="#E5E5E5"> but I at least</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> let her</font> know that<font color="#E5E5E5"> whatever pathway she chose was</font> fine with me if<font color="#CCCCCC"> she as long as she was</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">being honest with herself about what it</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">was that she</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> wanted but also that you</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">know I'm</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> not</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> a fan of the idea</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> that the</font> most fundamental orientation<font color="#E5E5E5"> that a</font> person is likely<font color="#E5E5E5"> to have in their</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> life</font> is career<font color="#CCCCCC"> I</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> don't believe that's true</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">for most people I certainly don't</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">believe it's</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> true for most women and I</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">think the evidence supports that claim</font> quite straightforwardly<font color="#E5E5E5"> so</font> however it is<font color="#CCCCCC"> the</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> only thing that you</font> get paid for under capitalism right<font color="#CCCCCC"> man</font> live but that's how can you say <font color="#E5E5E5">something like</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> that</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> it's so cliched</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">what's so painful to hear that maybe</font> cliche<font color="#CCCCCC"> but it didn't nonetheless it</font> struck women do<font color="#E5E5E5"> my capitalism</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> well for</font> God's sake<font color="#CCCCCC"> no</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> it isn't you have to</font> invest<font color="#CCCCCC"> into a child for</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> 18 years before</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">they have</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> any</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> economic utility it's a</font> consequence<font color="#E5E5E5"> of delayed economic</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> utility</font> we don't know how<font color="#E5E5E5"> to monetize</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> it</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> it's</font> not a consequence<font color="#E5E5E5"> of capitalism it's a</font> consequence of<font color="#E5E5E5"> the fact</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> that human</font> beings have an<font color="#E5E5E5"> 18-year dependency how do</font> you monetize that even in principle<font color="#CCCCCC"> well</font> we don't know<font color="#E5E5E5"> we did used</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> to</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> send them</font> up chimneys<font color="#CCCCCC"> to be fair and at that point</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">well grew really interesting is at that</font> point<font color="#E5E5E5"> children was seen has been much</font> more<font color="#E5E5E5"> the property of the man I mean has</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">the</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> became</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> economically useless all the</font> legal studies show<font color="#E5E5E5"> but that's when we</font> start<font color="#CCCCCC"> moving to a model of female</font> custody right because it<font color="#E5E5E5"> was about</font> caring<font color="#CCCCCC"> labour but</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> this is the point I'm</font> making<font color="#E5E5E5"> is model look I'll tell you there</font> are<font color="#E5E5E5"> plenty of men</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> who are not very happy</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">about the model of female custody</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> and</font> that would yes and that would include the<font color="#E5E5E5"> what is it</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> 85%</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> of men who were</font> essentially denied 50/50 custody when they divorce and have young children<font color="#CCCCCC"> so</font> I wouldn't think that one of our major <font color="#CCCCCC">problems or at</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> least a major unit</font> dimensional problem is the proclivity<font color="#CCCCCC"> of</font> men to foist off the<font color="#E5E5E5"> custody</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> of their</font> children<font color="#CCCCCC"> on to women there's</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> certainly</font> another side<font color="#CCCCCC"> of that argument there II</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">know</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> there is and I do think</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> that</font> actually<font color="#CCCCCC"> a</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> lot of anger has been</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">generated</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> by the way we</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> haven't in</font> Britain<font color="#CCCCCC"> any way we have in England and</font> Wales we have an adversarial<font color="#E5E5E5"> fault based</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">or system</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> that's something that's</font> changing but<font color="#CCCCCC"> what it does is encourage</font> people<font color="#CCCCCC"> to come</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> in on day one and say if</font> you<font color="#E5E5E5"> want to get divorced</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> you're gonna</font> have to make out a case<font color="#CCCCCC"> that the other</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">person</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> has</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> been</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> a</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> bomb it doesn't matter</font> because if you<font color="#CCCCCC"> move to an on fault based</font> divorce system then all<font color="#E5E5E5"> that</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> happens is</font> the fault shifts<font color="#E5E5E5"> to who should</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> get</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">custody so it doesn't remove the</font> acrimony by any stretch of the <font color="#E5E5E5">imagination it just shifts it to custody</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">of the children</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> and</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> that's what's</font> happened in Canada<font color="#CCCCCC"> right when in Britain</font> we actually talked about<font color="#E5E5E5"> access rather</font> than custody<font color="#E5E5E5"> because it's the idea is</font> not that<font color="#CCCCCC"> you own the children it's that</font> you<font color="#E5E5E5"> actually want to be</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> able to see the</font> children<font color="#CCCCCC"> and spend</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> time with them</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> and I</font> think<font color="#E5E5E5"> that's really important but</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">fault-based</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> divorce is is something</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> that</font> increases<font color="#E5E5E5"> the chances</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> of couples having</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">a bad divorce</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> right</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> that's the problem</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">is it it sets people against each other</font> from the start<font color="#CCCCCC"> they have to go into</font> court and contest<font color="#E5E5E5"> that the other purse</font> has done<font color="#E5E5E5"> something wrong</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> which is not a</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">great base on which</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> to</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> start then an</font> argument<font color="#CCCCCC"> about</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> you think you should be</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">encouraged</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> to</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> divorce even if no one's</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">done anything wrong</font> no I think that<font color="#CCCCCC"> having to prove that in</font> a court of<font color="#E5E5E5"> law is</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> not something</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> that is</font> going<font color="#CCCCCC"> to lead you to</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> a better</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">arbitration about settling money and</font> settling you know<font color="#E5E5E5"> access</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> to children I</font> think that's the point<font color="#E5E5E5"> you have a</font> ridiculous<font color="#CCCCCC"> situation where couples who</font> say well<font color="#CCCCCC"> actually we've just</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> grown</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> apart</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">nonetheless unless they want</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> to wait</font> five years<font color="#E5E5E5"> or two years for separation</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">they have to go in and plead</font> unreasonable<font color="#E5E5E5"> behavior to get</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> a divorce</font> and<font color="#E5E5E5"> start</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> splitting up their assets</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">that's the joy of no-fault divorce is</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">that you don't have to make those</font> contested case you can simply<font color="#CCCCCC"> say our</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">marriage is no longer working</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> and part</font> ways<font color="#E5E5E5"> without going into all of the</font> acrimony<font color="#CCCCCC"> that seems</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> quite sensible to me</font> it also seems quite naive to me<font color="#E5E5E5"> well</font> I've seen very<font color="#E5E5E5"> few non acrimonious</font> divorces<font color="#CCCCCC"> they're</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> very hard on kids so I</font> don't<font color="#E5E5E5"> think anything that makes them</font> easier is a very good<font color="#E5E5E5"> idea</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> it might be</font> good<font color="#E5E5E5"> in the short term but it's not good</font> in<font color="#E5E5E5"> the long term unless unless you don't</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">think</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> that marriage</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> is a useful</font> institution and if you think<font color="#E5E5E5"> that it's</font> part of<font color="#E5E5E5"> the patriarchal tyranny then you</font> might think<font color="#CCCCCC"> that as well</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> so but it's a</font> very useful institution mostly for kids <font color="#E5E5E5">so I</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> agree that I I'm married I'm modern</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">marriage has a lot to</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> recommend it</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> I do</font> also think it<font color="#E5E5E5"> is a patriotic</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> uns</font> institution it is<font color="#E5E5E5"> literally why don't</font> you think that<font color="#E5E5E5"> well because you think</font> virtually everything<font color="#CCCCCC"> that occurs in our</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">society is a patriarchal</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> institution</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">it's easy to think</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> that because then you</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">only have to</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> think one thing</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> you could</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">get a one thing answer for everything</font> you could let part of the patriarchal institution<font color="#CCCCCC"> I don't</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> think you're obeying</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">the rule that says maybe treat people as</font> if they have<font color="#CCCCCC"> something worth</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> hearing so</font> I'm not<font color="#E5E5E5"> making a case</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> for the</font> patriarchal tyranny<font color="#CCCCCC"> I</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> mean I don't think</font> you are<font color="#CCCCCC"> either I think that you're</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">making a case that that's like a</font> universally cliched case for the patriarchal tyranny I don't I<font color="#CCCCCC"> don't</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> see</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">too why should we change</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> the names at</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">all why do women change the names on</font> marriage traditionally I don't know <font color="#E5E5E5">exactly why do you think they do because</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">it</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> was to</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> symbolise the transfer of</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">their ownership</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> from one family to</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">another family</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> that's why in the</font> handmade sale you have<font color="#CCCCCC"> off</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> Warren Oh God</font> Margaret Atwood well<font color="#CCCCCC"> she was</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> just about</font> devoured by the feminists last year so <font color="#E5E5E5">that was something</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> interesting to</font> observe<font color="#CCCCCC"> I think she made a</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> very</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> good but</font> she wasn't<font color="#CCCCCC"> / all feminist I'm a feminist</font> I thought what she said<font color="#CCCCCC"> about due</font> process<font color="#CCCCCC"> in cases like that</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> is perfectly</font> reasonable<font color="#E5E5E5"> well</font> many people didn't know but then<font color="#E5E5E5"> you</font> know guess<font color="#E5E5E5"> what this</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> is</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> the on the</font> Internet you can<font color="#CCCCCC"> find someone</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> who</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">disagrees pretty much anything but so</font> why do<font color="#E5E5E5"> you think women changing the name</font> so when they<font color="#E5E5E5"> get married traditionally</font> if it's not about transfer of<font color="#CCCCCC"> property</font> ownership traditionally<font color="#E5E5E5"> I don't know if</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">I have an</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> opinion</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> about that the</font> specific reasons for that I'd have<font color="#E5E5E5"> to</font> look into<font color="#CCCCCC"> it for a fair amount</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> of time</font> before<font color="#E5E5E5"> I decided it but I certainly</font> wouldn't boil it down to a unit dimensional argument about<font color="#E5E5E5"> the ownership</font> of women by men so<font color="#CCCCCC"> ok</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> I just you know</font> the part of the problem too<font color="#CCCCCC"> is</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> with this</font> sort of<font color="#CCCCCC"> discussion is that it's and this</font> is why<font color="#E5E5E5"> I consider it a manifestation of</font> ideological<font color="#E5E5E5"> possession it's predictable</font> well that's what<font color="#E5E5E5"> knowing yours and so on</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">but having a coherent ideology doesn't</font> mean that it is predictable<font color="#CCCCCC"> because it</font> is an ideology<font color="#CCCCCC"> this is one logical</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> thing</font> that flows from another and<font color="#E5E5E5"> all those</font> pieces<font color="#E5E5E5"> tessellate together</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> that's what I</font> find very<font color="#CCCCCC"> interesting about your</font> thinking<font color="#E5E5E5"> I find it quite slightly</font> baffling is that<font color="#E5E5E5"> I don't</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> really</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> see how</font> all the<font color="#CCCCCC"> pieces fit together you know you</font> say<font color="#CCCCCC"> that you're</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> not you don't you</font> believe in God but there's a lot of<font color="#E5E5E5"> act</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">as if God exists right but it is</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">actually my definition of belief</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> ok when</font> that's<font color="#E5E5E5"> so but</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> that's in it but</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> that then</font> doesn't<font color="#E5E5E5"> to me tessellate very obviously</font> with<font color="#CCCCCC"> your insistence that we know</font> actually<font color="#E5E5E5"> it's just about pure science</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">and there's not a you know</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> that</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> you</font> because well what what insistence that <font color="#E5E5E5">is just above pure science well you are</font> wrote maps of meaning there's no insistence in that that is just<font color="#CCCCCC"> about</font> pure sorry different<font color="#E5E5E5"> you make appeals to</font> science all the<font color="#CCCCCC"> time you say well this</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">is</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> that what the literature says and the</font> trouble<font color="#E5E5E5"> with God is</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> ultimately you can't</font> say this<font color="#E5E5E5"> is</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> what</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> the reason which is why</font> I<font color="#E5E5E5"> don't don't say anything</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> about this</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">scientific status of God apart from what</font> can<font color="#E5E5E5"> be experienced maybe under certain</font> conditions of what would<font color="#E5E5E5"> you call</font> chemical induced mysticism<font color="#CCCCCC"> or it seems</font> to be something that<font color="#CCCCCC"> you can say</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">something scientifically about</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> but I see</font> that there's two<font color="#CCCCCC"> different realms right</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">there's a realm of values in a realm of</font> facts and<font color="#E5E5E5"> in the realm of facts science</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">reigns supreme</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> but it doesn't in the</font> realm of values<font color="#CCCCCC"> you have to</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> look</font> elsewhere<font color="#CCCCCC"> that</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> was what the humanities</font> were for before they got what would you say hijacked by ideologue x'<font color="#E5E5E5"> and you</font> know the<font color="#E5E5E5"> the</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> idea that that that</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> some</font> that<font color="#E5E5E5"> something should</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> be consistent you</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">were talking about the necessity</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> for</font> consistency<font color="#CCCCCC"> and</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> ideology it's like I'm</font> not hearing what you<font color="#CCCCCC"> think I'm hearing</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">what how you're able to represent</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> the</font> ideology<font color="#CCCCCC"> you were taught</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> and it's not</font> that<font color="#CCCCCC"> interesting because I</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> don't know</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">anything about you</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> I could replace you</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">with someone else</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> who thinks</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> the</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> same</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">way and that means you're not</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> here</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">that's what it means it's not pleasant</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">so you're not you're</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> not you're not</font> drawing<font color="#E5E5E5"> you're not integrating the</font> specifics of your personal experience with what you've been taught<font color="#E5E5E5"> to</font> synthesize something<font color="#E5E5E5"> that's genuine and</font> surprising<font color="#E5E5E5"> and engaging in a</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> narrative</font> sense<font color="#E5E5E5"> as a consequence and that's the</font> pathology<font color="#E5E5E5"> of ideological possession it's</font> not good and it's not good<font color="#CCCCCC"> that I I know</font> where you stand<font color="#CCCCCC"> on things once I know a</font> few<font color="#E5E5E5"> things</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> it's like why have a</font> conversation<font color="#CCCCCC"> I</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> already know where you</font> stand on<font color="#CCCCCC"> things</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> I bet you don't know</font> where I<font color="#E5E5E5"> stand on all</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> things</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> I would hope</font> that that that was true <font color="#CCCCCC">okay let's talk</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> about</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> list of about</font> transgender issues<font color="#CCCCCC"> that's from what do</font> you think I<font color="#CCCCCC"> think about</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> transgender</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">issues I suspect that</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> you think that</font> gender<font color="#CCCCCC"> expression</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> gender identity are</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">fundamentally social constructs but</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> I</font> could be wrong<font color="#E5E5E5"> no I believe</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> that there</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">are definitely</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> some biological</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">differences</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> between the sexes we've</font> observed them I do believe that gender is<font color="#CCCCCC"> a hugely powerful</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> social structure</font> that<font color="#CCCCCC"> we have</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> built on top of that</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> it is</font> largely<font color="#E5E5E5"> but</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> not entirely socially</font> constructed<font color="#CCCCCC"> I think when you look back</font> through<font color="#CCCCCC"> the</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> history you know biological</font> differences have consistently shrunk<font color="#CCCCCC"> and</font> like we were talking<font color="#CCCCCC"> they haven't in</font> Scandinavia they've magnified<font color="#CCCCCC"> okay but</font> we<font color="#E5E5E5"> were talking</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> about that's actually an</font> important<font color="#E5E5E5"> exception because Scandinavia</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">has gone farther than</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> any other area</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> the</font> Scandinavian countries<font color="#CCCCCC"> in establishing</font> egalitarian<font color="#E5E5E5"> social policy and the</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">differences</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> in interest and career</font> choice<font color="#E5E5E5"> and personality between men and</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">women have grown as a consequence</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> not</font> shrunk<font color="#E5E5E5"> which is exactly the opposite of</font> what<font color="#E5E5E5"> the social construction is predict</font> but also just<font color="#CCCCCC"> suggest</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> that the amount of</font> malleable<font color="#E5E5E5"> actually rather than fixed</font> well of course they're<font color="#CCCCCC"> malleable no one</font> would<font color="#CCCCCC"> ever suggest</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> otherwise so that's</font> what I mean it's<font color="#E5E5E5"> not malleable</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> in the</font> direction<font color="#CCCCCC"> that the social</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">constructionist presumed as you</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> flatten</font> out the sociological<font color="#E5E5E5"> lens</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">gave you</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> maximize the biological</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">differences no one saw that coming</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> and</font> you might think well it's a handful<font color="#E5E5E5"> of</font> right-wing scientists who are pushing that's like no it's not<font color="#E5E5E5"> it's mainstream</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">psychology and there aren't</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> any radical</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">right wingers</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> in mainstream</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> psychology</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">and everyone who discovered that was</font> absolutely<font color="#E5E5E5"> shocked by it</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> and these</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">papers have</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> been cited by thousands of</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">people</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> and they have tens of thousands</font> of subjects<font color="#E5E5E5"> and they've been done on</font> virtually national level samples <font color="#E5E5E5">cross-culturally but I also think</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> the</font> behavior in Scandinavia<font color="#CCCCCC"> has changed for</font> example<font color="#E5E5E5"> a lot more men take paternity</font> leave now that there is<font color="#CCCCCC"> a portion that</font> is<font color="#E5E5E5"> reserved purely for men that doesn't</font> seem<font color="#E5E5E5"> for making them wildly unhappy so I</font> think<font color="#CCCCCC"> there are definitely behavioral</font> things that are susceptible to nudges by society by government and<font color="#E5E5E5"> by the state</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">and that do change the way that</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> people</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">behave so we can possible meet</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> in the</font> middle<font color="#CCCCCC"> of my</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> hope</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> that people</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> can be</font> educated<font color="#CCCCCC"> and that we can</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> develop as a</font> consequence<font color="#E5E5E5"> of learning that's that's</font> certainly<font color="#CCCCCC"> not a disputable</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> proposition</font> and I also<font color="#E5E5E5"> believe</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> that there is no</font> evidence<font color="#CCCCCC"> for gender identity in the way</font> that it is<font color="#CCCCCC"> used and by you know as an</font> idea of a soul<font color="#CCCCCC"> I</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> think</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> that's the way</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">that it's often used</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> to me by who by by</font> transgender activists<font color="#E5E5E5"> yes what they can</font> do about<font color="#E5E5E5"> having a female soul and</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> that</font> to me seems strange I<font color="#CCCCCC"> don't see how you</font> some something<font color="#E5E5E5"> like biological</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">determinism right and I just</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> very it's</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">one</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> of the things that's</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> so perversely</font> amusing<font color="#CCCCCC"> about these sorts of arguments</font> is<font color="#CCCCCC"> that well but</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> I I attributed to the</font> lack of<font color="#E5E5E5"> demand for logical consistency</font> as a consequence<font color="#E5E5E5"> of postmodern thinking</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">you can believe one thing</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> when it's</font> convenient in one<font color="#CCCCCC"> situation</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> and another</font> thing when it's convenient for another so we're in the perverse position where if you're a man born<font color="#E5E5E5"> in a woman's body</font> that's biologically determined but<font color="#E5E5E5"> if</font> you're a woman<font color="#CCCCCC"> born in a woman's body</font> that's socially constructed<font color="#E5E5E5"> it's like</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">okay good luck with</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> that theory right</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> I</font> don't<font color="#CCCCCC"> believe you can be a man born</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> in a</font> woman's body a woman<font color="#E5E5E5"> born in a man's</font> body what I believe isn't<font color="#E5E5E5"> there are some</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">people who feel alienation towards their</font> bodies and they want<font color="#CCCCCC"> to remove what</font> everybody<font color="#E5E5E5"> feels</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> that right but</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> they'd</font> feel it to such an extent<font color="#E5E5E5"> that the best</font> clinically the best treatment for<font color="#E5E5E5"> them</font> is to transition<font color="#E5E5E5"> and live as if they</font> were<font color="#E5E5E5"> they yeah well I don't</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> think</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> that</font> there's any<font color="#CCCCCC"> evidence that that's</font> clinically<font color="#E5E5E5"> the best treatment we</font> certainly don't know enough<font color="#CCCCCC"> to make that</font> presupposition and I think we're<font color="#E5E5E5"> playing</font> with fire assuming that<font color="#E5E5E5"> that's the case</font> the<font color="#E5E5E5"> long-term outcome studies certainly</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">don't</font> demonstrate that so it's not<font color="#E5E5E5"> so so I</font> would make<font color="#CCCCCC"> a very</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> big distinction there</font> between adults and<font color="#E5E5E5"> between children I</font> think<font color="#E5E5E5"> that would be</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> a</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> good distinction</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">to make</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">okay but I</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> think we</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> are very quick to</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">diagnose and treat children in a way</font> that I<font color="#E5E5E5"> find we're not waiting for the</font> research and<font color="#CCCCCC"> that I find concerning yeah</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">say well the lawsuits will put it</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> into</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">that in about 15 years so there's</font> there's there's<font color="#E5E5E5"> one place that we found</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">from which that</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> is something that</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> gets</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">me a lot of hate I'm sure it does a turf</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">and a bigot for that so all right I</font> don't<font color="#CCCCCC"> think that's something</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> that</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> you</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">would been able to predict and I think</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">because that is not now the</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> orthodox</font> feminist position<font color="#CCCCCC"> I agree</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> completely</font> we<font color="#E5E5E5"> will learn something um I just wanted</font> to<font color="#E5E5E5"> talk quickly about my</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> behalf</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">meaty movement mhm tell me your reaction</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">to what's happened pulled it over the</font> last year<font color="#CCCCCC"> I won't</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> put words in your</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">mouth</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> you tell me well there's certainly</font> no shortage of evidence for reprehensible sexual behavior on the part of people<font color="#CCCCCC"> who can</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> use power to get</font> away<font color="#E5E5E5"> with it so that's not so good</font> the me<font color="#E5E5E5"> to movement</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> I suspect it probably</font> did some<font color="#E5E5E5"> good</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> things and some terrible</font> things<font color="#E5E5E5"> so I would say that there is a</font> dangerous proclivity to abandon the concept of the presumption<font color="#E5E5E5"> of innocence</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">so in university</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> campuses for example</font> we're moving towards a<font color="#CCCCCC"> preponderance of</font> evidence model<font color="#E5E5E5"> I'm not very</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> heart being</font> with<font color="#E5E5E5"> that model I think that's a very</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">big</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> mistake the presumption of innocence</font> is nothing short of a miracle and<font color="#E5E5E5"> we</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">abandon it at our extreme peril so I'm</font> not<font color="#CCCCCC"> happy with that</font> I think the believe the<font color="#E5E5E5"> victim idea is</font> something that only<font color="#E5E5E5"> a fool could could</font> could conjure up because it opens the door to<font color="#CCCCCC"> to</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> unbelievable opportunity for</font> manipulation<font color="#CCCCCC"> I think I was disagree with</font> you<font color="#CCCCCC"> in</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> slightly</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> on that because I think</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">what that</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> means is what people are</font> arguing<font color="#CCCCCC"> for</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> is don't instantly dismiss</font> or disbelieve the victim<font color="#E5E5E5"> right which is</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">very</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> matter</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> and that's partly</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> whatever</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">there's plenty of people</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> who are arguing</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">for</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> the fundamental attitude to</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> be</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">believed the victim</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> so some people are</font> arguing<font color="#E5E5E5"> to not automatically disbelieve</font> the victim which is a perfectly<font color="#CCCCCC"> reasonable thing</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> to</font> argue<font color="#E5E5E5"> for but that isn't where it ends</font> so<font color="#CCCCCC"> ok climate change</font> I saw you posting a link<font color="#CCCCCC"> to a study</font> suggesting that you know<font color="#CCCCCC"> a lot of</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> the</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">the</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> weather it's talked</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> about has been</font> overhyped what do you what do you what <font color="#CCCCCC">are your</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> beliefs about well I spent a</font> lot of time<font color="#E5E5E5"> I don't really have beliefs</font> about<font color="#CCCCCC"> climate change</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> I wouldn't say I</font> mean I think the<font color="#CCCCCC"> climate is probably</font> warming but<font color="#E5E5E5"> it's been warming since the</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">last ice age so I don't accelerated in a</font> lot even<font color="#E5E5E5"> in the last yeah maybe</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> possibly</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">it's not so obvious I spent quite a bit</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">of time going through the</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> relevant</font> literature<font color="#CCCCCC"> ice I read about 200</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> books on</font> ecological<font color="#CCCCCC"> what would you</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> call it</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> on</font> ecology<font color="#CCCCCC"> and economy when I</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> worked for</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">the UN for about a two-year period</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> and</font> it's not so<font color="#CCCCCC"> obvious</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> what's happening</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">just like with</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> any complex system</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> the</font> problem<font color="#E5E5E5"> I have fundamentally isn't</font> really the climate change issue<font color="#E5E5E5"> it's</font> that<font color="#E5E5E5"> I find it very difficult to</font> distinguish valid environmental claims from environmental claims that are<font color="#E5E5E5"> made</font> as a what would you call<font color="#E5E5E5"> it secondary</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">anti-capitalist</font> front essentially so it's so politicized <font color="#E5E5E5">that it's very</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> difficult to parse out</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">the data from the politicization so I</font> saw there's a line in<font color="#E5E5E5"> 12 rules which</font> says people stricken with poverty<font color="#E5E5E5"> don't</font> care about carbon dioxide <font color="#E5E5E5">yeah there's that's definitely the</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> case</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">and I think</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> that's</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> not an unreasonable</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">point to make because you think about</font> Maslow's<font color="#CCCCCC"> hierarchy of needs right people</font> if you can't eat then actually you can't really worry about what's happening in 50 years<font color="#CCCCCC"> to the planet however</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> I don't</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">think that's a reason not to tackle</font> climate change<font color="#CCCCCC"> because those same</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> people</font> people in the global<font color="#E5E5E5"> science</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> it's partly</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">a reason is it though because people</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> in</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">the global</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> several generated plants</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> stop</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">people from starving so yes it's partly</font> a reason and it's certainly<font color="#CCCCCC"> the case</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">that making energy</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> more expensive</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">obviously</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> makes things more difficult</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">for poor</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> people</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> so yes it's definitely</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">an issue</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> and I would say you know it's</font> kind of a conundrum for<font color="#E5E5E5"> those on the</font> left it's like<font color="#E5E5E5"> what's it gonna be clean</font> air or hungry people<font color="#E5E5E5"> think well we don't</font> have<font color="#E5E5E5"> to choose it's like okay</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">oh renewable energy or</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> whoo good luck</font> with that<font color="#CCCCCC"> Oh</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> nuclear power</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> happy find oh</font> well we doesn't look like we're moving <font color="#E5E5E5">in that direct</font> very<font color="#CCCCCC"> fast</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> but</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> that</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> is it that is</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> a</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">solution</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> and</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> then while it worked for</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">the French yeah I was fascinated David</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">Adom is</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> something kind of close to a</font> national<font color="#CCCCCC"> religion in Britain</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> so there's</font> a bit<font color="#CCCCCC"> where you say</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> population control</font> advocates<font color="#CCCCCC"> like him you</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> can fend to Eric</font> Harris one of the Columbine<font color="#E5E5E5"> killers</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> why</font> then<font color="#E5E5E5"> is it virtuous to propose that the</font> planet might<font color="#CCCCCC"> be better off if there are</font> fewer people on it<font color="#CCCCCC"> and I</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> found that</font> completely boggling<font color="#CCCCCC"> that you have elided</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">their population control through people</font> not to being born and the mass<font color="#E5E5E5"> slaughter</font> of<font color="#E5E5E5"> people who are already alive</font> motivation that I<font color="#E5E5E5"> question</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> right tell me</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">more about that</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> well what</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> kind of</font> statement<font color="#CCCCCC"> is the planet would be better</font> off with fewer people on it first of all there's an easy solution<font color="#CCCCCC"> to that you</font> could<font color="#E5E5E5"> leave unfortunately much the best</font> efforts of<font color="#E5E5E5"> Elon Musk that is not yet</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> an</font> option permanently<font color="#CCCCCC"> I mean that's what I meant</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">yes if you're very concerned about your</font> carbon footprint there's a very fast solution to that so and I<font color="#CCCCCC"> think it's</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">disingenuous to what's the other people</font> or<font color="#E5E5E5"> maybe it's the people who haven't</font> been<font color="#E5E5E5"> born yet</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> it's like I don't</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> I'm</font> there's a this is<font color="#E5E5E5"> also the problem</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> I</font> have with<font color="#E5E5E5"> much of the environmentalist</font> movement is there's a powerful<font color="#E5E5E5"> stream of</font> anti human sentiment that motivates it and masquerading under the guise of virtue on a planetary scale<font color="#CCCCCC"> it's like</font> could<font color="#CCCCCC"> be I mean</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> it's not like we're not</font> fouling our own nest<font color="#E5E5E5"> you know but that's</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">why</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> I'm fascinated by where you</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> come</font> from<font color="#CCCCCC"> is because the book you know is so</font> much<font color="#E5E5E5"> about things being in balance and</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">harmony right an order and chaos</font> outweigh each other well what overpopulation has done is got to<font color="#CCCCCC"> this which says we have</font> overpopulation<font color="#E5E5E5"> well I think</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> it's very</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">difficult to see under the current model</font> of fossil<font color="#E5E5E5"> fuel based capitalism sorry to</font> use that<font color="#E5E5E5"> word I know I'm set to you but</font> that<font color="#CCCCCC"> is</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> what</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> you until</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> we've until we've</font> run it when we run out of<font color="#E5E5E5"> fossil fuel</font> yeah that's not gonna happen<font color="#CCCCCC"> well</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> it</font> will happen yeah<font color="#E5E5E5"> because</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> they're</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> people</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">I'm saying that's going to happen for 50</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">years and now that now the United States</font> is a net<font color="#CCCCCC"> exporter of</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> fossil fuel</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> all</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">right and so no one saw that coming</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> did</font> they but it happened<font color="#E5E5E5"> and you're right</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">that might be the case</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> but</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> at the moment</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">I would say that you know China is</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">putting up new coal-fired power stations</font> you know<font color="#CCCCCC"> by the bucketload</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> it was</font> entirely<font color="#E5E5E5"> possible that the stuff that</font> the developed nations did <font color="#E5E5E5">that nidavellir</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> nations did and then</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> it</font> concerned<font color="#E5E5E5"> about clean air when they get</font> richer<font color="#E5E5E5"> that's what the data indicate</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">once you get GDP up to about $5,000 per</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">year people start to become</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> concerned</font> with environmental issues<font color="#E5E5E5"> so if we make</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">that might have enough</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> I don't think so</font> it'll happen too late<font color="#E5E5E5"> for some things it</font> looks<font color="#E5E5E5"> like we're gonna top out at about</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">9 billion I think we can handle</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> that</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> I</font> think probably<font color="#E5E5E5"> people one of</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> the</font> problems that<font color="#E5E5E5"> will be set us in</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> a</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">hundred years assuming there are even</font> creatures like<font color="#CCCCCC"> us</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> around in a hundred</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">years is that there'll be too few people</font> not<font color="#E5E5E5"> too many</font> you know the projections<font color="#CCCCCC"> talk about at</font> about<font color="#E5E5E5"> nine billion it's only two billion</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">more than</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> we have now</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> or there's every</font> reason<font color="#E5E5E5"> to assume that we can cope with</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">that especially</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> given the rapid</font> decreases in poverty around the<font color="#E5E5E5"> world at</font> the<font color="#E5E5E5"> moment</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> there's a bit of a</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> bottleneck</font> they'll<font color="#E5E5E5"> probably be some more extinction</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">what we're doing to the oceans by</font> overfishing doesn't seem very<font color="#E5E5E5"> smart but</font> we've<font color="#E5E5E5"> only been aware of our role as</font> planetary stewards since 1960 I would say and we're<font color="#E5E5E5"> not doing too bad for</font> people who<font color="#E5E5E5"> just woke up to the fact</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> that</font> we actually<font color="#E5E5E5"> have that were actually a</font> planetary force<font color="#E5E5E5"> and I don't think</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> that</font> we're overpopulated<font color="#CCCCCC"> I think all the</font> arguments<font color="#CCCCCC"> that</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> all that all the people</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">who made those arguments in the</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> 1960s</font> like Paul Ehrlich<font color="#CCCCCC"> I think he wrote</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> the</font> Population Bomb<font color="#E5E5E5"> predicted mass</font> starvation by the year 2000<font color="#E5E5E5"> he was</font> absolutely<font color="#E5E5E5"> and completely wrong</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> we've</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">been very</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> lucky with things like golden</font> rice for example genetic engineering of crops I think<font color="#CCCCCC"> maybe that's not luck well</font> no it is it<font color="#E5E5E5"> is I agree there a human</font> ingenuity is a huge part of that<font color="#E5E5E5"> death</font> right well<font color="#CCCCCC"> then more</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> people you know</font> more ingenuity<font color="#CCCCCC"> you know in Bjorn long</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">burg</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> who I really admire</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> The Skeptical</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">environmentalist who's actually going</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> a</font> very long ways to trying to<font color="#E5E5E5"> figure</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> out</font> what we could do at a planetary level <font color="#CCCCCC">that would</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> actually be useful and</font> productive<font color="#CCCCCC"> his research</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> has indicated</font> the best the<font color="#E5E5E5"> best possible investment</font> isn't carbon tax isn't<font color="#E5E5E5"> cessation of</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">utilization of carbon-based fuel it's</font> probably investment in early<font color="#E5E5E5"> infant care</font> around<font color="#E5E5E5"> the world especially in</font> developing countries<font color="#CCCCCC"> seems</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> right to me</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">he's done</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> the analysis very carefully</font> one more area that<font color="#CCCCCC"> you talked about</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">that's caused controversies</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> gay</font> parenting<font color="#CCCCCC"> you said the devil</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> is in the</font> detail you<font color="#CCCCCC"> want to see</font> more<font color="#E5E5E5"> studies</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> on that</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> what do you think</font> might<font color="#CCCCCC"> be the adverse effects of having</font> same-sex<font color="#E5E5E5"> parents well I don't think we</font> know what<font color="#E5E5E5"> modeling is optimal for</font> children<font color="#E5E5E5"> that's really the issue</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> I mean</font> I suspect that<font color="#E5E5E5"> two parents are better</font> than one<font color="#E5E5E5"> suspect</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> right I don't know one</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">parent is definitely worse than two we</font> know that<font color="#E5E5E5"> but we don't</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> know what</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">exposure to role</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> model saying is</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">necessary for the continuity of maternal</font> behavior or<font color="#E5E5E5"> for the adoption</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> of</font> functional gender roles we don't know any<font color="#E5E5E5"> of</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> that and so that's the variable</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">obviously you don't no one knows what</font> the consequence of<font color="#CCCCCC"> being raised with two</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">people of the</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> same sex is maybe none</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">right so there doesn't seem to be any</font> evidence<font color="#E5E5E5"> so</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> far that's that's</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> what all</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">the literature review suggests that</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">absolute there wasn't there were a</font> couple that<font color="#E5E5E5"> work</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> did show problems</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> but</font> they were in in in my couple domes that <font color="#E5E5E5">had already broken down right so so</font> there is no as<font color="#E5E5E5"> net no evidence maybe</font> there will be some fine but at the moment<font color="#CCCCCC"> there is no evidence that</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> there</font> is<font color="#E5E5E5"> any problem with</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> having gay parents</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">yeah I</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> never said there was</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> I</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> somebody</font> asked me<font color="#E5E5E5"> I believe it was</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> a question</font> like if there was a problem what would <font color="#E5E5E5">it be</font> it's something<font color="#E5E5E5"> like that no I mean you</font> can<font color="#CCCCCC"> make</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> a very strong conservative case</font> for gay marriage<font color="#CCCCCC"> I think yeah not that I</font> would necessarily be motivated<font color="#CCCCCC"> to make a</font> conservative argument<font color="#E5E5E5"> David Cameron</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> our</font> former prime<font color="#CCCCCC"> minister said I'm support</font> gay marriage<font color="#E5E5E5"> because I'm a concern yes</font> right<font color="#E5E5E5"> right so you know it's it it's</font> obviously homosexuality is it's been around forever<font color="#E5E5E5"> also what's the</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">appropriate social</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> response to that well</font> conceivably bringing as many people as possible into<font color="#E5E5E5"> something approximating</font> the same game I think<font color="#CCCCCC"> you could make a</font> reasonable<font color="#E5E5E5"> case for that what's the</font> consequence of<font color="#E5E5E5"> that for children in</font> those<font color="#E5E5E5"> families</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> I don't know I mean what</font> I would say is while the obvious risk<font color="#E5E5E5"> is</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">that there's no one of the opposite sex</font> around<font color="#CCCCCC"> I mean</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> it doesn't take up</font> what<font color="#CCCCCC"> do you hear doesn't take the</font> perception of genius<font color="#E5E5E5"> to come up with the</font> observation that that might<font color="#E5E5E5"> be a problem</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">now</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> maybe it's not and my suspicions are</font> there's<font color="#E5E5E5"> probably far more</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> relevant</font> problems with regards to what happens<font color="#E5E5E5"> to</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">children that isn't good than that so</font> this<font color="#E5E5E5"> is</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> a way</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> in which you</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> know that is</font> now conserved<font color="#E5E5E5"> addition to hold I think</font> it's<font color="#CCCCCC"> about 20 years ago</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> that would have</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">been another</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> mature mainstream well</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">people were concerned with the</font> deterioration<font color="#CCCCCC"> of marriage and believed</font> that any additional transformations would further weaken it and<font color="#E5E5E5"> I think</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> that</font> that's<font color="#E5E5E5"> not an unreasonable position</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">given how weak it's become and I don't</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">think that that's</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> been good for people</font> overall<font color="#E5E5E5"> okay let's talk about free</font> speech<font color="#E5E5E5"> to finish on you wrote in your</font> book<font color="#CCCCCC"> about Nietzsche</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> who became the</font> Nazis favorite intellectual and you also <font color="#E5E5E5">talked about a professor he threw his</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">sister's mistranslations of his work</font> right but you<font color="#CCCCCC"> talked a little</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> bit as</font> well about<font color="#E5E5E5"> another professor whose ideas</font> you thought led inevitably to kind<font color="#E5E5E5"> of</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">maoism and you said I don't</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> know how he</font> can't be more worried about where<font color="#E5E5E5"> his</font> ideas lead<font color="#E5E5E5"> do you worry about</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> wait you</font> know where your work might be<font color="#E5E5E5"> taken and</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">used by</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> the people</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> I saw you propose II</font> worry<font color="#E5E5E5"> about that all the</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> time with a</font> Pepe flag<font color="#E5E5E5"> I can't believe you brought</font> that<font color="#E5E5E5"> up</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> right but I just</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> think it's</font> seriously I can't believe you brought that up you should go online<font color="#CCCCCC"> yeah I do</font> there there's a believe me I do<font color="#E5E5E5"> there's</font> a video called I<font color="#E5E5E5"> think it's called is Jordan Peterson</font> and darling of the<font color="#E5E5E5"> all right have you</font> have you written have you watched the <font color="#CCCCCC">video of</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> the</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> person who put up that Pepe</font> flag with me<font color="#E5E5E5"> he's online but I got</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> watch</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">it I have seen what</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> you wouldn't</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> I would</font> say why<font color="#E5E5E5"> are you concerned about Pepe</font> anyways Jesus he disappeared like three years<font color="#CCCCCC"> ago it is</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> and most of that</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> was</font> trolling by young guys who<font color="#E5E5E5"> were trying</font> to drag the<font color="#E5E5E5"> media</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> into idiot accusations</font> like the idea that<font color="#CCCCCC"> this</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> was a white</font> supremacist gesture<font color="#E5E5E5"> which I was asked</font> about on CBC<font color="#CCCCCC"> it's like no it wasn't it</font> was Fortran trolls<font color="#E5E5E5"> playing the media for</font> fools<font color="#E5E5E5"> which worked and much of the</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> pepe</font> thing was that as well but the problem <font color="#E5E5E5">with people ironically pretending to be</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">Nazis on the internet they weren't</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">pretending to be</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> nice but</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> no</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> this</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> is a</font> separate phenomenon and a fortune <font color="#E5E5E5">definitely do ironically return to be</font> all the worst<font color="#E5E5E5"> things they can possibly</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">be is that some people take that very</font> seriously there was a case<font color="#CCCCCC"> in America</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">recently of a guy who stabbed his</font> because he had thought<font color="#E5E5E5"> that his father</font> was a<font color="#E5E5E5"> Democrat he'd got better he was</font> writing stuff for a<font color="#E5E5E5"> conservative website</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">he'd got very into the pizza gate</font> conspiracy theory who's probably paranoid<font color="#E5E5E5"> right so there are people very</font> very seriously<font color="#E5E5E5"> I mean latch</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> on to it</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">what's your</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> point I'm</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> I saying</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> that you</font> know how much responsibility<font color="#E5E5E5"> do you feel</font> you have<font color="#E5E5E5"> particular</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> it's</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> the</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> OLT right</font> as you say some<font color="#E5E5E5"> of them have enjoyed</font> your<font color="#E5E5E5"> work and I'm not one of you I'm not</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">one</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> of you guys</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> I'm not with</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> you can</font> they haven't enjoyed my work<font color="#E5E5E5"> I've</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">definitely read bits on the integrate</font> more<font color="#E5E5E5"> okay find some evidence</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> I'm</font> extraordinarily sick and tired of this particular accusation<font color="#CCCCCC"> slash line of</font> questioning<font color="#E5E5E5"> I'm no fan</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> of</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> the</font> identitarian right the<font color="#CCCCCC"> ethno nationalist</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">the all right first</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> of all what do you</font> mean by all<font color="#CCCCCC"> right</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> exactly do you mean</font> ethno-nationalism eat white supremacists <font color="#E5E5E5">no I mean people who are on the right</font> but<font color="#E5E5E5"> have got their power base outside</font> the traditional<font color="#CCCCCC"> media</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> they see</font> themselves<font color="#E5E5E5"> as an alternative so I see</font> them comes a pretty loose definition <font color="#E5E5E5">that straight Rush Limbaugh</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> kind of talk</font> radio<font color="#E5E5E5"> right people who see themselves in</font> opposition to Rush Limbaugh's not the <font color="#CCCCCC">alt-right</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">have</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> been around for 30 years right so</font> he's the progenitor<font color="#CCCCCC"> of what I see now</font> Breitbart and things like<font color="#E5E5E5"> that</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> other new</font> media version<font color="#CCCCCC"> of that</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> very old media</font> well let's define what<font color="#CCCCCC"> constitutes</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> all</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">right first for me</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> there</font> ethno-nationalism<font color="#CCCCCC"> M assists</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> and</font> generally when<font color="#CCCCCC"> people tar me with an</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">alright epithet the</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> reason they're doing</font> that is<font color="#E5E5E5"> to associate me with those</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">people they don't</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> like me and the reason</font> for<font color="#E5E5E5"> that is that as</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> me I've made it</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> very</font> clear not<font color="#CCCCCC"> only in my videos but on</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">Twitter that I don't like them</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> I don't</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">like their anti-semitism I don't like</font> their use of identity politics<font color="#E5E5E5"> I don't</font> agree with their aims<font color="#CCCCCC"> I think that their</font> notion is something like well<font color="#E5E5E5"> if</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">everybody's going to play identity</font> politics<font color="#E5E5E5"> we're going to play it too and</font> we're going<font color="#CCCCCC"> to win and</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> I can certainly</font> understand that motivation but<font color="#E5E5E5"> I think</font> it's a bad game<font color="#CCCCCC"> all</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> around and I think</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">the only reason that I was</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> ever</font> associated<font color="#E5E5E5"> in any sense whatsoever</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> with</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">anything to do with the alt-right was</font> because it was extremely<font color="#E5E5E5"> convenient of</font> the radical leftists who I fundamentally detest<font color="#E5E5E5"> to paint me as a representative</font> of<font color="#CCCCCC"> that</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> viewpoint</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> right there other</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> than</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">that zero</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> now</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> there's no what I did you</font> say<font color="#E5E5E5"> it so I no point did I say well you</font> brought up the whole<font color="#E5E5E5"> price and I did</font> bring<font color="#CCCCCC"> that but there was a reason I did</font> that<font color="#CCCCCC"> which is that Nietzsche</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">that I'm an</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> auntie auntie see my right</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">and yet his ideology and his philosophy</font> ended up being used by the Nazis<font color="#CCCCCC"> so my</font> question to<font color="#CCCCCC"> you is how much</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">responsibility do you feel about</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> what I</font> feel<font color="#E5E5E5"> it's</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> not</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> how much responsibility I</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">feel it's how much responsibility</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> I take</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">right right and I take as much</font> responsibility<font color="#CCCCCC"> as I possibly can right</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">which</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> is why I'm doing</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> what I'm doing</font> but<font color="#E5E5E5"> I'm going around the world I'm</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">talking in different cities I'm talking</font> to people<font color="#CCCCCC"> as much as I</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> can</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> I'm putting</font> out content<font color="#E5E5E5"> that I think is useful for</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">people online and I'm clarifying what I</font> think I have<font color="#E5E5E5"> 300 videos on YouTube</font> virtually for all intents and purposes <font color="#CCCCCC">every</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> single word I've said to students</font> in a professional capacity since 1992 <font color="#CCCCCC">and despite the fact that I have</font> innumerable highly motivated enemies<font color="#E5E5E5"> they haven't</font> been able<font color="#E5E5E5"> to find one thing I've said in</font> 30<font color="#E5E5E5"> years</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> that</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> what would you say</font> justifies any of those<font color="#CCCCCC"> accusations or</font> any other accusations<font color="#CCCCCC"> for</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> that matter</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> so</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">it's</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> uh it's it's quite</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> the phenomena I</font> mean I understand it<font color="#E5E5E5"> to some degree</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> you</font> know<font color="#E5E5E5"> you can you can help me</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> explains</font> why why did<font color="#E5E5E5"> you pose with</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> it what were</font> your reasons for<font color="#CCCCCC"> doing it do</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> people just</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">come up</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> and bring it</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> to you and yeah I</font> was like posing<font color="#E5E5E5"> with I probably been</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">photographed with I don't</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> know</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> five</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">thousand people in the last two</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> years</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">and you know it's one after the other</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">often</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> in groups of</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> a</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> hundred 150</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> or 200</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">people and it just it's like 15 seconds</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">right and they brought this flag one of</font> them had spoken at the<font color="#E5E5E5"> event they were</font> doing it<font color="#CCCCCC"> ironically they unfurled the</font> flag<font color="#E5E5E5"> and we took a picture</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> and that was</font> that<font color="#E5E5E5"> would you</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> oppose ironically with</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> a</font> hammer<font color="#CCCCCC"> and</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> sickle flag</font> I'd I don't<font color="#CCCCCC"> know under the</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> circumstances</font> how what I would have<font color="#E5E5E5"> done</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> I have</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> all</font> sorts<font color="#CCCCCC"> of Soviet art in my house anybody</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">could get caught out and social</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">embarrassment is a huge factor and you</font> don't want to<font color="#E5E5E5"> kind of tell</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> people who've</font> been<font color="#E5E5E5"> very nice to you that actual you</font> don't want to do the thing<font color="#E5E5E5"> I</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> just wonder</font> if<font color="#E5E5E5"> that's something that you</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> regret now</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">that</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> you wouldn't do again if you if you</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">have</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> the opportunity well I don't think</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">it</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> did me any good</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">ah</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> I don't</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> think I'll betray my former</font> self<font color="#CCCCCC"> we'll just leave</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> it where it is I</font> made<font color="#E5E5E5"> the decision that I made under the</font> circumstances<font color="#E5E5E5"> and took what was there</font> into consideration<font color="#CCCCCC"> I think that I think</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">that the</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> Pepe formulators did a</font> wonderful job<font color="#E5E5E5"> of trolling the standard</font> media<font color="#CCCCCC"> I don't think that they were what</font> everyone presumed<font color="#E5E5E5"> them to be I think we</font> did a wonderful job of trolling you as well in a sense<font color="#E5E5E5"> right recruiting you and</font> your image and your appeal to<font color="#E5E5E5"> people to</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">to their kind of cause which</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> is ironic I</font> don't really think so<font color="#CCCCCC"> it</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> is not</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> actually</font> under you know underneath<font color="#E5E5E5"> it all I don't</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">find it very</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> ironic actually</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">what don't you find out</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> Roenick</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> then a</font> lot of<font color="#CCCCCC"> the kind</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> of 4chan culture which</font> is saying<font color="#E5E5E5"> I'm just gonna say the worst</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">possible thing that</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> I can say just to</font> prove that<font color="#CCCCCC"> I can say it because free</font> speech is<font color="#E5E5E5"> still alive</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> I think that in</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">itself is</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> quite</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> poisonous to the</font> discourse<font color="#CCCCCC"> I think I try and</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> conduct</font> myself online<font color="#E5E5E5"> in a relatively civilized</font> manner<font color="#CCCCCC"> I do not always succeed but</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> I do</font> not<font color="#E5E5E5"> think just going</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> into a room and</font> screaming epithets<font color="#CCCCCC"> is something that I</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">need to do on a daily basis to prove</font> that free speech isn't<font color="#E5E5E5"> dead right</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> I</font> think we could probably agree<font color="#E5E5E5"> okay it's</font> a reasonable reasonable<font color="#E5E5E5"> a rare note of</font> consensus<font color="#CCCCCC"> I but</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> I have to come</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> back to</font> the free speech idea because I think <font color="#CCCCCC">that</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> whole</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> idea</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> the intellectual dark</font> web and<font color="#E5E5E5"> this came up a</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> couple of</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> times</font> at<font color="#E5E5E5"> your event on Thursday it's</font> predicated on the idea that<font color="#E5E5E5"> you have</font> been<font color="#E5E5E5"> marginalized for your opinions or a</font> press for<font color="#CCCCCC"> your pain predicated on my</font> claim of that<font color="#E5E5E5"> right it's predicated on</font> well I don't know I'm<font color="#E5E5E5"> not claiming I've</font> been<font color="#E5E5E5"> marginalized I would never use that</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">word first of all that's for sure so but</font> the idea of<font color="#CCCCCC"> Adar</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> don't feel oppressed</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">good I'm pleased to hear it but I do</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">think that the way</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> that you you've got</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">the cheers from that crowd</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> was very</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> much</font> about<font color="#E5E5E5"> there was an idea of taboo</font> breaking right<font color="#CCCCCC"> that all this is a</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">microaggression but I'm gonna say</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> it</font> anyway that<font color="#CCCCCC"> you</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> know hard work is the</font> way to<font color="#E5E5E5"> succeed and I</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> thought that was</font> fascinating<font color="#E5E5E5"> because to me you</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> don't</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> look</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">like somebody who has particularly</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">suffered an outrageous amount for your</font> opinions<font color="#CCCCCC"> people have certainly disagreed</font> they've been rude they've met me<font color="#CCCCCC"> or</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">they've in some cases the only reason I</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">haven't suffered an outrageous amount</font> for my opinions is because I've handled the consequence of<font color="#E5E5E5"> their utterance</font> exceptionally <font color="#E5E5E5">my job was at risk my</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> career was at risk</font> my family stability<font color="#E5E5E5"> was at risk so I</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">wouldn't push that one too far and what</font> way<font color="#CCCCCC"> was your job</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> at risk Jesus</font> last year<font color="#CCCCCC"> 200 of my fellow faculty</font> members signed a petition<font color="#E5E5E5"> to get me</font> fired that was only one of<font color="#E5E5E5"> a dozen</font> things that happened the<font color="#E5E5E5"> university</font> wrote me<font color="#CCCCCC"> two</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> letters to cease and</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> desist</font> letters<font color="#E5E5E5"> from their HR departments with</font> their<font color="#CCCCCC"> legal staff three of those in</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">you're done they just fired Rick</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> Maeda</font> in Canada<font color="#E5E5E5"> at</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> Acadia University for</font> talking about<font color="#E5E5E5"> many of the same things</font> that<font color="#E5E5E5"> I've talked about so the fact that</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">I've</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> come through this relatively</font> unscathed has very little to do with the vitriol of the attacks<font color="#E5E5E5"> there was plenty</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">of motivation to take me out it just</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">didn't work</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> right and</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> I think</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> the fact</font> that it didn't work<font color="#E5E5E5"> to me makes me</font> ultimately optimistic about where we are <font color="#CCCCCC">because</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> I've why because I have to work</font> I went<font color="#E5E5E5"> on I did a panel a while ago with</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">zarg Inara a Burmese comedian who was</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">imprisoned for making a joke right</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> and</font> we are<font color="#E5E5E5"> not yet at</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> that stage I think</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">undoubtedly I cannot we're damn close</font> really um how<font color="#CCCCCC"> about the guy with the pug</font> in the UK<font color="#E5E5E5"> count</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> dunk</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> EULA</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> that's the one</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">right but he did actually I mean that</font> was a joke i and might not have liked it I didn't say it was a good joke<font color="#CCCCCC"> I didn't</font> say it was an appropriate joke I didn't say any of that<font color="#E5E5E5"> I didn't say it was a</font> well thought<font color="#CCCCCC"> through joke but it was a</font> joke yeah I<font color="#CCCCCC"> don't I</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> just fundamentally not</font> don't believe that<font color="#E5E5E5"> it was a joke I</font> believe that it was<font color="#E5E5E5"> coming out as a joke</font> and<font color="#E5E5E5"> that's what it kind of cares right</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">well that's exactly what</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> you would</font> believe<font color="#E5E5E5"> if you were inclined</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> to</font> persecute comedians<font color="#E5E5E5"> no I'm not inclined</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">to persecute something well you're</font> inclined<font color="#E5E5E5"> to persecute him I</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> don't</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> think</font> he's a<font color="#E5E5E5"> comedian and I don't think III I</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">would have to go and look</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> at the</font> circumstances of that case<font color="#E5E5E5"> but I I think</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">he didn't like his girlfriend's pug and</font> thought he would teach<font color="#CCCCCC"> it to do</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">something reprehensible as a joke right</font> but I see you getting<font color="#E5E5E5"> involved say</font> tweeting<font color="#E5E5E5"> Douglas</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> Murray's asked all that</font> Tommy Robinson and I think you see that <font color="#E5E5E5">as a free speech issue</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> and that's</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> not</font> how I see Tommy Robinson's<font color="#CCCCCC"> case at all</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> I</font> see that as contempt of court someone <font color="#E5E5E5">who endangered a grooming trial how do</font> you see that case I see it as<font color="#E5E5E5"> very</font> fortunate<font color="#E5E5E5"> that Tommy Robinson didn't die</font> in<font color="#E5E5E5"> prison</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> I think I would say that</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> about</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">a lot</font> people<font color="#CCCCCC"> and president I think</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> it's</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> very</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">hard to be</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> in prison</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> if you are a sex</font> offender<font color="#CCCCCC"> for example</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> I think</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> our British</font> prisons are less inhumane<font color="#CCCCCC"> an American</font> presence<font color="#E5E5E5"> but</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> there are still brutal</font> places to be<font color="#E5E5E5"> however I do think that was</font> an appropriate<font color="#E5E5E5"> punishment for somebody</font> who tried to collapse<font color="#E5E5E5"> a grooming trial</font> well but you and I guess<font color="#CCCCCC"> you</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> have Tory</font> you have prison<font color="#E5E5E5"> abolitionist</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> no oh right</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">okay so you do</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> believe that some people</font> there<font color="#E5E5E5"> are offenses for which people</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> need</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">to go to prison why would you</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> ask me</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> a</font> question<font color="#CCCCCC"> like that I'm someone who isn't</font> interested<font color="#CCCCCC"> in meeting out appropriate</font> punishment<font color="#CCCCCC"> no but I just thought</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> maybe I</font> versus made an assumption<font color="#CCCCCC"> about you and</font> I didn't want to<font color="#E5E5E5"> make an assumption</font> about you um I'm<font color="#E5E5E5"> just gonna in with a</font> quick fire round<font color="#CCCCCC"> so I know that</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> this</font> isn't well this is<font color="#E5E5E5"> YouTube so we have</font> been able<font color="#E5E5E5"> to talk for a really long time</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">but I just want quick answers from you</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">who is</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> your favorite author</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> Dostoyevsky</font> who's your favorite female<font color="#E5E5E5"> author</font> Margaret Laurence I think I don't<font color="#E5E5E5"> know</font> her she's a<font color="#E5E5E5"> Canadian author kind of an</font> antidote to<font color="#E5E5E5"> Margaret Atwood in my</font> estimation<font color="#E5E5E5"> okay when did you last cry Oh</font> God who knows<font color="#E5E5E5"> last week probably who is</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">your smartest opponent</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">hmm Sam</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> Harris is pretty smart because</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">you</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> had debates about atheism with him</font> and about rationality<font color="#E5E5E5"> yeah I don't</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">really regard him exactly as an opponent</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">you know I mean</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> we disagree on things</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> I</font> don't<font color="#CCCCCC"> really tend</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> to think of people</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> as</font> opponents generally<font color="#E5E5E5"> I</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> mean but</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> Harris is</font> you know Harris is smart he's good at making<font color="#CCCCCC"> his case</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> and so that's been</font> that's been interesting what big question don't<font color="#E5E5E5"> you know the</font> answer<font color="#E5E5E5"> to what big question don't I know</font> the<font color="#E5E5E5"> answer to</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> well</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> god that's a tough</font> one there's so<font color="#CCCCCC"> many of</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> them</font> well<font color="#E5E5E5"> personally it's what I should do in</font> two years when did you last change your mind about<font color="#CCCCCC"> something important I'm</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">changing my mind about things all the</font> time every<font color="#E5E5E5"> time I do a lecture</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> I changed my</font> mind<font color="#E5E5E5"> about something</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> but</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> something</font> important something big oh well<font color="#CCCCCC"> all</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">right</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> well I can tell you I mean one</font> thing<font color="#E5E5E5"> I've learned in the last</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> two years</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">is that I think I overestimated there's</font> an obesity<font color="#CCCCCC"> epidemic in North America</font> perhaps<font color="#E5E5E5"> throughout the Western world</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> I</font> think I overestimated the degree to <font color="#CCCCCC">which that was a consequence of a</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">sedentary lifestyle and overestimated</font> the degree<font color="#CCCCCC"> to which a lack of discipline</font> was contributing to<font color="#E5E5E5"> it I think</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> I think</font> much<font color="#CCCCCC"> more now that it's an illness</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> those</font> are two different<font color="#CCCCCC"> things</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> I want they</font> discipline is<font color="#E5E5E5"> self-control and illness</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">isn't something I</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> interview</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> well let's</font> say you're overweight you should exercise<font color="#CCCCCC"> it's like well actually the</font> evidence<font color="#E5E5E5"> that exercise will thin you</font> down isn't<font color="#E5E5E5"> that great and maybe the</font> reason that you're not<font color="#E5E5E5"> exercising is</font> because you're ill<font color="#E5E5E5"> not that you're ill</font> because you're<font color="#E5E5E5"> not exercising</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> so I've I</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">have a lot more sympathy for the</font> hypothesis that the<font color="#CCCCCC"> obesity epidemic is</font> actually a consequence<font color="#E5E5E5"> of a of an</font> illness<font color="#E5E5E5"> of a broad scale illness isn't</font> exactly right<font color="#E5E5E5"> it's a dietary problem</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">fundamentally and their deep causes for</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">that</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> are you still</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> eating</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> your old beef</font> diet unfortunately yes<font color="#CCCCCC"> really</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> just just beef</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">nope can you have like ketchup</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> on it</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">nothing right yes I wouldn't it isn't</font> something I would lightly recommend<font color="#E5E5E5"> it's</font> a little hard on your social life<font color="#E5E5E5"> makes</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">travelling quite</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> difficult and</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> it's dull</font> as hell but but but<font color="#E5E5E5"> what's it what has</font> it done<font color="#CCCCCC"> for you well I lost</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> 50 pounds in</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">seven months</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">I stopped snoring I had some autoimmune</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">conditions that seemed to have gone away</font> I'm not taking antidepressants my mood <font color="#E5E5E5">isn't perfectly regulated but I'm under</font> a fair bit<font color="#CCCCCC"> of stress</font> that might have something<font color="#CCCCCC"> to do with it</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">I sleep much</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> less</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> I can work more</font> [Music] <font color="#CCCCCC">imaginary you're insane I don't I drink</font> shape<font color="#CCCCCC"> I don't</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> think there's any evidence</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">that that</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> I</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> don't think we have any idea</font> what causes arteriosclerosis<font color="#E5E5E5"> I think all</font> <font color="#CCCCCC">of the dietary knowledge we have is is</font> rubbish<font color="#E5E5E5"> and</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> if partly</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> because it's</font> unbelievably<font color="#CCCCCC"> difficult to do proper</font> dietary<font color="#E5E5E5"> studies you can't do controlled</font> studies say it's all correlational and there's so many variables I think the correlational studies are useless<font color="#E5E5E5"> so</font> also the this all meat diet this all beef diet<font color="#E5E5E5"> has apparently cured my</font> daughter<font color="#E5E5E5"> so you can that</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> rheumatoid</font> arthritis<font color="#CCCCCC"> well that was the original</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">diagnosis then it was idiopathic which</font> means we don't know<font color="#E5E5E5"> it was causing it</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">yeah but she's completely symptom free</font> so<font color="#E5E5E5"> that sort of thing makes you sit up</font> and take notice<font color="#CCCCCC"> because</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> it doesn't make</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">any sense well miss the last time you</font> lied<font color="#E5E5E5"> because the book says no lying</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">do you still lie everybody lies as dr.</font> house<font color="#E5E5E5"> himself told us</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> mm-hmm what</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> is</font> most important<font color="#CCCCCC"> pretty</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> damn careful</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> about</font> it what is most important<font color="#E5E5E5"> to you in</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> life</font> not being stupid how<font color="#E5E5E5"> would</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> you like</font> making<font color="#E5E5E5"> foolish mistakes not being in</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">cautious yeah that's tough one yourself</font> life's tough man right<font color="#E5E5E5"> how would your</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">life have been different</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> if</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> you've been</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">born female multiple</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> orgasms</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> it's not a</font> bad one<font color="#E5E5E5"> what's your</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> biggest</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> regret that</font> I didn't take<font color="#E5E5E5"> advantage of the</font> opportunity<font color="#E5E5E5"> to learn</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> to play the organ</font> when I was<font color="#CCCCCC"> seven if that's your biggest</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">regret</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> this</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> isn't going to</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> be a great</font> death bed because that's yeah well<font color="#E5E5E5"> I</font> <font color="#E5E5E5">know I would have liked it would have</font> been better for<font color="#CCCCCC"> me</font><font color="#E5E5E5"> if I would have been</font> better<font color="#E5E5E5"> musician and finally how would</font> you like<font color="#E5E5E5"> to be</font><font color="#CCCCCC"> remembered</font> as someone honest dr.<font color="#CCCCCC"> Jordan Pearson</font> thank<font color="#E5E5E5"> you very much</font>
Info
Channel: British GQ
Views: 9,951,957
Rating: 4.780911 out of 5
Keywords: GQ, fashion, style, celebrity, luxury, behind the scenes, men’s lifestyle, menswear, British GQ, british magazine, men’s style, style guide, men’s fashion, gq uk, British style, British GQ style, jordan peterson, masculinity, Me Too, author, interview
Id: yZYQpge1W5s
Channel Id: undefined
Length: 102min 13sec (6133 seconds)
Published: Tue Oct 30 2018
Reddit Comments

GQ: Some X is the case.

JP: No, it isn't.

GQ: I have looked and found examples of X.

JP: Look more.

Jordan is talented, I'll give him that. But he's also kind of a complete idiot.

👍︎︎ 189 👤︎︎ u/cecograph 📅︎︎ Nov 03 2018 🗫︎ replies

We all know JP has...reservations about women...but does anyone else think he is markedly different when being interviewed by men? He seems way more talkative and his body language less chilly and reserved with dudes

"I'm a credible scientist" lololololl

👍︎︎ 76 👤︎︎ u/orangetango7 📅︎︎ Nov 03 2018 🗫︎ replies

Yeah that part was numero uno lolo.

"Read more" like what? lol what a fuckin prick

👍︎︎ 132 👤︎︎ u/[deleted] 📅︎︎ Nov 03 2018 🗫︎ replies

Read more

Sure, let's start here:

“Never believe that anti-Semites are completely unaware of the absurdity of their replies. They know that their remarks are frivolous, open to challenge. But they are amusing themselves, for it is their adversary who is obliged to use words responsibly, since he believes in words. The anti-Semites have the right to play. They even like to play with discourse for, by giving ridiculous reasons, they discredit the seriousness of their interlocutors. They delight in acting in bad faith, since they seek not to persuade by sound argument but to intimidate and disconcert. If you press them too closely, they will abruptly fall silent, loftily indicating by some phrase that the time for argument is past.” - Jean-Paul Sartre

Fuck you frog. You know exactly who your audience is, exactly what they want to hear, and your attempts to pretend otherwise are as shallow as the bullshit you write.

👍︎︎ 98 👤︎︎ u/happybadger 📅︎︎ Nov 03 2018 🗫︎ replies

Just being precise in his speech

👍︎︎ 41 👤︎︎ u/Fala1 📅︎︎ Nov 03 2018 🗫︎ replies

"There are no homosexuals in Iran."

--Mahmoud Ahmadinejad

"I DECLARE BANKRUPCY!"

--Michael Scott

"They (the Alt Right) don't enjoy my work."

--Jordan Peterson

It's fun to say things.

👍︎︎ 77 👤︎︎ u/unqtious 📅︎︎ Nov 03 2018 🗫︎ replies

My two best friends (a married couple) shifted alt-right, they adore him.

So yeah, bullshit, asshole.

👍︎︎ 34 👤︎︎ u/snarpy 📅︎︎ Nov 03 2018 🗫︎ replies

Anybody who has to say that the alt-right doesn't enjoy his work in order to stave off accusations that the alt-right likes his work, has work that the alt-right likes. Just sayin'. If you're denying it, it's happening. I know emphatically that the alt-right doesn't like my work, but I'm not having to proclaim it to the world as a defense of it I'm doing something incredibly and disastrously wrong.

👍︎︎ 25 👤︎︎ u/schnuffs 📅︎︎ Nov 03 2018 🗫︎ replies
👍︎︎ 21 👤︎︎ u/thenotoriousbtb 📅︎︎ Nov 03 2018 🗫︎ replies
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