Is it alright to be gay and Muslim - Maajid Nawaz, Quilliam

okay next week we're gonna move on to our next question you might actually remember this one we tried to debate it on our last show in Birmingham but then we did so better late than never really as a seat-filler [ __ ] I've talked about issues of being Muslim gay and British in in today's society and essentially these labels you know they they shouldn't fit well together but here I am and I refuse to give one up over the other I kept it to myself for many many years because I was always afraid of what the community would say what my parents would say I came out to my parents when I was in my early 20s my mum came into my room and she questioned me about about my sexuality I said this in order which is my mother tongue I said I'm me Maggie Hall which means my mum gay there was an occasion where my mum asked you know whether I needed to go and see your doctor I said to my mum this isn't something that you know I can take a medicine for when I introduce my partner to my parents I introduced him as you know this is the the person I want to marry and although I entered into civil partnership they sort of saw equal as as a marriage and my mom ended up attending the ceremony and ended up sort of giving me away in giving us her blessing I know it sounds cliche but it was the best moment of my life Seifer lahore has allowed me to reach out to many people that I wouldn't have really reached out as Asif my mum my auntie's and my sisters actually came to see one of my shows and the gay community were just totally inspired and in all that you know a Muslim woman you know dressed in in the garb had come into a gay space and was watching a cabaret drag show one question I'd like to ask the Muslim community is when will it be right to be Muslim in gay okay Asif is with us this evening Asif what did you want to ask that question um it's an issue that is affecting a lot of gay Muslims up and down the country thousands of game up and down the country and I think it's a topic that's really relevant today it's a topic that doesn't get discussed on any level continuously gets Bruns brushed underneath the carpet and I'd like to get it discussed today okay um Amy what do you think I think you'll ever be alright I think it's absolutely alright I think a thief is incredibly inspiring and to hear your story especially about your family being so loving and gentle with you is is just wonderful of course it's okay to be gay and Muslim and Christian and non-religious and whatever you know this is the 21st century and you know not only do we have the laws to support this equality we also have changed a lot of hearts and minds in this country in the past 20 years about issues around equality you know it's it's we're looking at a really fantastic weekend ahead on Saturday we're gonna have the first equal marriages taking place here in the UK and I think it's a really proud moment for the country okay what's your position on this well the stomach position is that we don't label people by their sexuality or their nationality or their race this label was invented in the Victorian era as soon as you discriminate them by label you discriminated them in Islam we don't have a tie to identity called your gay homosexual heterosexual which is just humans but in in and the only thing that's judged is not really your your your desires because we all have sinful desires it's just actions which are judged in Islam and you know in Islamic theology there are many actions which are sinful the main actions which are permitted and so we don't really say that you can't be gay and Muslim because we don't recognize the term gay or we don't make the discrimination between you know heterosexual homosexual is all or to fish we'll just human we shouldn't discriminate bait or judge someone or label someone because that's when discrimination begins okay so I'm slightly confused would you therefore describe a surfers sinful um you know what what he does in the previous see him some home is not really my concern I'm just saying no no but wait is look I don't know we doesn't boost his own hopes not my concerts not my place see babysit oh and if you want if you want a judgement you can refer to God I'm not God I'm just a human being like anybody else a sinful human that being said yeah Islamic theology says that there are certain action like drinking alcohol eating pork and engaging in same-gender intercourse or different intercourse outside of marriage which is these are all sinful actions right but you can still be a Muslim and do sinful actions we don't it's your belief that determines whether you are Muslim or not but I will say this the real intolerance I think and it's an issue I heard early one was I think it's bit rich that imagine was he says that you can't provoke young people you know just because they have hoodies or whatever but his organization profiles Muslims who have Orthodox beliefs and he calls them extremists and he's a government-funded stooge okay Roger it sounds really interesting because actually what we're talking about is something completely different but if I if I can just give a couple of seconds now that you've got right to get back to the subject matter where Quilliam doesn't profile Muslims of that's why I've been sitting here speaking against profiling and we're not government funded now back to the subject but you think that can I I think that it's about time we have an honest debate about this we are as Muslim communities in the plural in this country simultaneously oppressed in many respects and the oppressors and that's a dynamic that plays out in every other scenario victimhood whether it's um we talk about domestic abuse somebody invariably has ADD abuse done to them when they were young and they turn into a user whether it's with a wife or with children when they grow older they become violent and it's a cycle of violence and I think likewise with Muslim communities across the world we have faced a lot of violence I've faced torture in prison in Egypt by the Egyptian regime I have been added by Daniel Berger police brutality in Essex and in turn we become brutalizes of others in some cases and the case of being a minority within this minority of being a Muslim we sometimes end up discriminating against those minorities within the minor and a case in point are gay Muslims I mean it's very very dangerous I interviewed somebody just yesterday a film was shown on Newsnight about an openly gay Muslim called Omar kudos who has to live in hiding and he lives in hiding he's been attacked so many times and because people have said to him you can be gay but just don't describe yourself as Muslim as a result we have to have an honest debate about this it doesn't mean all Muslims are homophobic I'm very impressed by what this gentleman said that he doesn't want to discriminate what I would say those we have to be honest and say there is discrimination going on within Muslim communities about time we call the spade a spade okay yeah that's right there hi I'm a British Muslim London born and bred my family's been in London Essex Pass say 50 years and the question that was raised a few weeks ago the the to topic is quite controversial but very simply I think you can't begin with him and I tell you why and firstly I think it was wrong for the mosque to ban the discussion a few weeks ago because we live in a democracy where we allowed to disagree I should just say that the mosque obviously aren't here to live outside this is a short vote okay um and so I don't think we like to censor anything but um very simply first of all I know us if he does a lot of great work for the LGBT Asian Muslim community and I've worked with him on that being a drag queen isn't the same as being gay it might sound obvious but it's quite important to make that distinction people watching the programme and secondly being gay or lesbian isn't about anal sex or sexual mechanics and it's important to make that distinction as well because it's about love so for dr. nassim to say gays and lesbians are in the same vein as murderers and pedophiles is really wrong because as a chairman of the of the Burma komoroske has a position of responsibility and that same language that rhetoric is used by people around the world to justify murdering and persecuting LGBT community and it causes lots of lots of sadness lots of heartache I've volunteered for Iman which is a uk-based LGBT Muslim organization going from strength to strength past 15 years and we've helped asylum seekers a confidence country but also people in the UK who's been ostracized and disowned by their own family and very simply to love someone isn't a sin no religion really is is is preaching hate it's about love and if there's your 1.5 billion Muslims and 10% is gay that 150 million lesbian gay Muslims and people need to stop hating and start loving throw that back so I said magic can come talking about how he loves minority and so on but it doesn't apply it when it comes to Muslim community he tells the government that certain beliefs are extremist these are mainstream outlets and beliefs let's stick to what we're sure including in this is the belief in Islamic theology that that you know what is sinful what is not sinful acts and to believe in mainstream believes which is okay so if I believe that same gender physical intercourse is sin doesn't make me extremist right there are Christians that believe this they're Jews that believe this I believe this but I'm but you know don't ask me to start judging people without not here to judge anyone I'll be judged and Ed Rosen along with everybody else right the issue is you can't you should not be called extremist for just holding mainstream beliefs and that's the problem is that people that hold these beliefs and not harming anyone or attacking anyone but just hold these beliefs they're being treated outcasts renegades they're I say modern-day heretics by government-funded Stooges like imagine a walls let me speak up for people at home Anonymous again I'm afraid it's hard coming out into Muslim families there are a hundred and one questions and you end up living two lives one straight life in front of the family one gay life with your friends but with me I came out to my mum only I still haven't told the rest of the family but I don't wish to I'm happy to say that I am happy I am gay and I am Muslim there's another one here and again anonymous by email as a Muslim lesbian for me the issues surrounding homosexuality within my faith and community is one of anonymity seclusion fear of being outed in consequences the pressure of marriage is constant and it's led to depression and suicidal thoughts in the past my siblings know but telling my parents is another thing altogether now abdullah i know you'll say you don't want to judge people individually but isn't it attitude within the community that we hear stories like this well I think you've done some bit more about summing theology and okay all Muslims all are cute they're human and we all commit sins every single one of us in Islamic theology you're not allowed to express your sins so if someone's drink alcohol eats pork or whatever whatever you don't say I've done this and whatever whatever you just keep it you keep it to yourself because we're not meant to be proud of our sins we all do sins we all know this but you shouldn't be as a Muslim anyway you shouldn't be saying oh I must come out to the closet who said you who's a Jaa's come out a puzzle every single thing you do your private life just do you know I don't everyone about my private life I don't feel I have to come out the closet until people my price is good so you choose to drink alcohol you do not choose to be gay and I like if you want to live your life by a book this you know just ancient it's just so beyond the views around made confusion between suChin in any religion I actually think it's physical hating whether Muslims should be gay or not it should be why can you not be religious and gay all right great now being gay it refers to emotions of feelings right that's different from actions all right we're talking about actions I'm not saying about feelings fitness in Islam feelings are not sinful right your feelings are not sinful right actions determine whether you are a good person or bad person that is all listen not bad and when you're gay again it's how what I'm that's not I'm saying we don't even have that classification we don't even have we don't even label that the people to discriminate them you're one that discriminated by seeing your different form of human beings you are gay you're heterosexual we don't even make the discrimination you're the one that you don't even acknowledge a let's see what no I too much humans human beings all right yes lady here he actually came out and said that the censorship that happened on BBC for each speech two weeks ago was not only attack on LGBT people but also an attack on Muslims and the integrity of Muslims and then propagating the idea that Muslims cannot have a debate that's this free and open and tolerant now but I've not the words of I see it now yeah but two weeks later that's you've sensitive why it's not relevant now no but the fact that you've sent in it and you postponed it is kind of relevant phone there's no sign of censored well really it was because it's it's like what the gentleman was saying about the mosque the mosque the expressed concern they didn't even ban it they expressed concern and the BBC you decided to abide by that all and then they came out saying that the gesture is what I would like to ask a say if is the end of the day you choose to identify yourself as sorry excuse me you identify yourself as game why do you then choose because it is a choice why do you then choose to be Muslim when it says explicitly within Islam within judeo-christian tradition that that is prohibited is the choice just like to say that sexual orientation is not a choice is not a choice actually [Applause] Muslim so Hari will G no no no don't get hurt in this why would you do that guys prohibited it's a choice at the end of the day you can chose of you must say doesn't in the Quran that is prohibited what is prohibited is the anti can give you the anger they said I am NOT here to talk about that one lots of sweetly the artistic Amos flame respond to your question I am NOT here to talk about that one outs what I'm here to talk about is love love between two men or two women when it be OK and accepted to be gay in Islam that is not it's a loaded question but I'm sorry you either be gay or you be Muslim no one is forcing you see I know yeah yep lady here on the blood I think that is totally wrong I mean I I was brought up in an Islamic household I'm from a Islamic community I'm from a very conservative Pakistani community if my mom and dad can accept me why can't the wider community just float in the blood and I personally think that the question you're asking is when will the Muslim community accept you as a gay person accept gay or homosexuality the thing is homosexuality is not accepted in Islam so the Muslim community will never accept homosexuality in a whole but you being gay or not on a drug mental level you can be gay but then at the same time if you choose to follow a religion which prohibits homosexuality then you can't turn around and ask when will they accept for you to be gay can I just see them yeah can I just say what are people like me meant to do then you know gay teenagers the suicide rate is going up homophobic crime is going unreported and it's because of attitudes like this that view that is forcing people I mean I will speak out and continue to speak out your right to identify however you want because what we're hearing right now is and you guys can also think whatever you want the the danger with literalism is in insisting that there is only one interpretation on one way of doing things if we take that literally if we take literalism literally then only 200 years ago slavery was accepted and justified by religion Quran explicitly and literally let me finish and make this point the Quran literally allows for slavery as does the Bible but we no longer practice it because our attitudes and interpretations have changed there is no one Muslim community there is no one way of interpreting things if he wants to identify his being Muslim as this gentleman here said Abdullah he said he's not gonna tell you he's not a Muslim and I applauded him for that he said he's not gonna discriminate against him you just did and so he disagrees [Applause] until children here God does not exclude anyone that is a crucial first point and everyone has the right to define for themselves what their identity is and we all have identities which quite often are contradictory we all have to find some way of navigating that remaining faithful to our vision of God while also remaining faithful to who we are but to add to that also the rest of society in particular State should not try to impose its view or its morality upon Islam this is a conversation that has to happen within Islam that it might be here there might be room here to them and that's what it there might be room for growth and change ultimately you decide for yourself but the idea of saying to someone you're a sinner able to define them as a sinner you cannot be part of this religion that to me is anti-god because that's a decision that God makes what you said about interpretation you're pushing the idea that there was no true interpretation of Islam by that exact logic you're saying that the people that extremists right are there their interpretation of religion is also valid there was mainstream Islam there are things that are universally accepted within Islam for example the gentleman brought up the idea of drinking of doing drugs you know those things are prohibited within Islam I can choose not to do them or I can but for me to go out and say I'm a Muslim and I drink and that should be accepted that's not religion you're completing your conflicting choice and how somebody is or without choice that first of all he was born the way he is and I'm sure he can speak for himself what I would like to say to you is many many Muslims would consider you sinful for not covering your face and would insist that your sinful and you can't be a Muslim for showing your face I'm not wearing the jilbab the long gown so at the end of the day this is all interpreted and just as you've got the right in fact they've got none of these let me not just any respond to you please no no talking about interpretation can I just finish my point they would also say that you shouldn't be speaking in front of men you shouldn't be on television calm there are literally hsihu argue that too we don't go there in Paris dr. Abdullah quickly over aa great song bin Laden was asked right he was asked why'd you go against the Islamic prohibitions of killing women and children and he says are the Moors not set in stone yes he's a modernist song bin Laden is a reinterpretation as modernist he doesn't believe he believed in different interpretation of Islam you can reinterpret it I'm he's the same mentality imagine awards has to reinterpret scripture when it suits him in the slum he believes in rules it may believe in people you can't just change up you can't just change those things we're not sure shoo oh okay I thought yes you made a very patient I think the real question we should be asking ourselves is when will religion accept homosexuality because to narrow it dr. Muslims insolation yeah doing anyone any [Applause] let's get up power bar action before we do though some comments this is the minority view though you can't be gay in a Muslim Islam forbids it so you're not really a Muslim you're just agen and Zainab says same AB says hang on these these are the messages coming in we need to reflect what people are saying being gay Muslim isn't right and it's disrespectful but let's have a look at the power bar 71% of people at home watching online say yes it's all right to be gay Muslim so that is a magenta right there yeah the Bible and the Quran in new society create laws and we are here to abide by the laws and constitution of that society if Christians have the Bible and if I will set our tools that Christians will follow you either a crystal you're not a Christian equally soon basic one and they are laws that are said for you to follow you don't accept or reject on the basis of all these people have lied to their choices so it's all about choice and you'd life you want to live well you should not hold orders to ransom because of the right to life you want to live okay I mean I'm a Christian and I'm also a lesbian and I believe that we are all made in God's image we are very pleased to judge for ourselves and to think for ourselves and that is the crucial point here yeah but we'll also make the judgment that they want to follow a biblical or a Koran led form with that faith what I find odd is the idea that there is one true interpretation which may be applied across the religion or across the culture for me I deeply respect people who choose to live a chaste life who are gay and who choose to live according to those biblical precepts but I respect all so you have to those who choose to follow a different kind of relationship with God and the idea that I have a right to say to them you ain't going to get into heaven that's not my call to make that's God's call to me yeah look at the bucket I think that all village and practice love so therefore for you to separate them from the religion it's not practicing love you're not loving them for who they are rather than like looking at their apps wherever love them regardless cuz at the end you're still practicing my religion okay uh yeah gentle at the battle I've seen the biggest problem here for Islam I'm gonna speak as an outsider I'm a Catholic Christian who actually practices my faith of Islam I think the issue is a septal tolerance you know I got friends who are Muslims and it will tell you in fact Islam it's not even about love it's about rules and rules you see that's a big difference and I'm not gonna obviously pinpoint Muslim but as a Christian as a Catholic Christian there is a universal interpretation the church as they find out so I think the issue is fear where he's talking about it calling me heretic is what I'll call Protestant I'll call Protestant heretic I think here's because Islam they interpret into many is too many interpretations involved I've been a big issues if they had a define oversee some sort of dogma it says this is what it really means then you won't have the issue and obviously you got a set you got in fact you know that tolerate you gotta tolerate like you know you gotta tolerate in fairly easy we're not gonna go away are you gonna tolerate is good obviously I'll tolerate your lesbian I just thought you understand you can't contradict the teacher love the head of faith that's gonna be a record that I had to actually congratulate this gentleman three times for his not discrimination I know what he's problem is with me but I actually don't have a problem with him so just let's take that folk okay okay yes just win the yellow t-shirt is the issue here not that as soon as you start judging somebody else based on one factor their personality and their identity you get into that is really dangerous that's a good place to ends because we have got our time I'm sorry that is it we're off air and so at

Channel: Quilliam International

Views: 599,767

Rating: 3.4035707 out of 5

Keywords: Maajid Nawaz (Organization Founder), Quilliam (Organization), Gay (Sexual Orientation), Muslim (Religion)

Id: k6E2Q4INbmM

Length: 23min 8sec (1388 seconds)

Published: Fri May 02 2014

Reddit Comments

[u/phozee]

Is it bad that I agree with the girl saying "being gay may not be a choice, but being Muslim is, you cannot be gay and Muslim because the Quran forbids it". Maajid Nawaz argues that it's all up to interpretation, and that because slavery was once accepted (because it is condoned by the Quran) and now it isn't, we can do the same with how we view LGBT rights. If that's the case, then why refer to the Quran for ANYTHING?

I guess I agree in principle that religion itself isn't going away, so the only way to make any change on issues like LGBT rights is to convince people to interpret those passages differently. It just feels a little disingenuous to me is all.

[u/mrpithecanthropus]

I thought this programme was positive. It's rare to see thoughtful debate undertaken relatively reasonably on this subject coming from the Muslim community.

[u/jlebrech]

When will it be ok to be a vegan, pacifist klingon.

[u/TheGreatSpaces]

As an atheist and an anti-theist I would want the gay fellow to consider giving up his faith; that said the more salient issue is the violence and the actions of a large part of some Muslim communities (keeping in mind that the instance of violence varies wildly depending on the nationality/ethnicity of the perpetrators and that Muslims in the UK come from 170+ countries). The women who were upset that he continue to call himself Muslim were justifying, I think, indirectly, the enforcement of the 'choose between gay or muslim' ultimatum. They were just arguing fervently, but in many instances the expression of frustration with gay Muslims by other Muslims is with a fist or by kicking someone out of home. So it all comes back to how a particular cohort of people are justifying their own violent behaviour; and the people on this program were implying that if the gay guy didn't stop calling himself Muslim that the consequences would be on him, not on the people committing the emotional abuse, making people homeless, or outright physically attacking self-identified gay Muslims.

[u/omgplsno]

This enrages me.