BBC The Big Questions E10S12 10/03/2019

[Applause] Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world and in 50 years time it's predicted that Muslims will outnumber Christians across the globe yet many of us know very little about Islam nor about what most of its growing number of followers believe and few of us realize that it is the 25 Muslim majority countries across the world that suffered 75% of all the fatalities from terrorism between 2001 and 2015 now globally terrorism is mainly Muslims killing other Muslims why is Islam more divided than United well Hannah you've you've been on quite a spiritual journey I have yourself haven't you at the moment is Sunni yeah no I'm sure I'm [ __ ] right but you've been something I've been sunni and you've been a Sufi I've been a selfie journey towards being a Sufi but sheer ISM is not different from finding the Sufi path as is neither Sydney isn't right how would you describe sunni ism in sentence sunni ism is how can I describe it I think because I was born into a Sydney family it was something that I was expected to accept without question so for me the connotations with being a Sunni were not being able to question which was contradicting what I had learnt about Islam and I think the question that you're asking today is quite incorrect in in its construction it should be are Muslims more divided than United rather than Islam because Islam according to the Koran according to history and according to the traditions that are accepted should be a unifying factor sadly we don't see that today because we see a great division within Muslims due to sectarian thought due to ideological differences so why share for you why did you move to share it was a natural progression through the studying and the research that I was doing for me what questions remain unanswered as asumi as a selfie even where where I dabbled in Salafism during my university years I felt were answered when I started studying Shia Islam and the ideology and the theology the salafism is that's a puritanical formation puritanical literalistic interpretation of his sole guardians of truth absolutely it's our way or the highway in fact it's the death way your way or the highway to hell the highway to hell that kind of thing eternally damned forever just for wearing heels and not wearing black at times why are you rolling your eyes there Abdullah I think he's straw Manning Salafism song I don't think that you'd be the attorney damned to hell for wearing high heels spits I was knifepoint at my university for wearing heels and wearing a hijab as well because and that's just you know that's that was a case that was due to a criminal individual but there's only not there's no branch of Islam that says you're damned to hell just for one activity or action in my universe sorry are you a Salafi and well it's relevant really what I'm not really hits discuss with you myself per se but I think no no we're talking about about some factual information right so concerning I mean even amongst she is there's the US body school which is are pretty literalistic when it comes to their traditions so there's there's two schools of within um it's not Sharia or 12 or Shiism which is the or solely and the ox body so let's not forget that they also have variations and they take the traditions quite literally as well so you probably know slowly but probably artists for having an honest open debate let me ask you about a doctrinal difference because last time we were on a train ride a conversation and I said do you approve of music and you said you didn't approve of music musics not your thing and music and dancing you believe it's it son Islamic but in music is so much a part of did I say that you approve of music is relevant were like well I do our personal lives and soul I'm totally a conversation go from everybody on the on the subject of music this one okay you don't just it's a doctrinal difference and it's quite it's such a central part of our culture music isn't it well that it's quite an interesting variation in doctrinal difference that you can read the same book and read the same a death and you can say music is wrong well I know other Sunni Muslims you love music I'm just looking at different if I may be allowed to speak and so basically the the top UT is Islam Islam all unite then divide it obviously I agree that you should be searching about Muslims and of course the solution in Islam to uniting Muslims up see Muslims can't all agree on the same doctrine and no and no one ever even talks or says that it's possible should be the case cuz the Prophet Mohammed sort of some of his companions just disagreed on on minor things but certainly its political unity that was always its advocate in every suit every school of thought the three Shia schools the four stony schools and the the Abadi school and of course the the literally school we've been has them they all agree that Muslims the Muslim world should be nine under one one imam for the sake of unity political unity let's spread it around is the sort of thing that you're talking about the puritanical Islamists that are those the people who do not prove a music dancing they don't approve of different a difference in opinion they don't approve of thought they do critical analysis I mean I'll give you a given example there's so much sectarian right now right here in the UK let me take you back to 2015-2016 during the Myint murder of Assad shot Muslims came together to condemn the mass media shopkeeper in in Glasgow who was murdered by a Sunni who scribed to the Sufi Barelvi school of thought and he was encouraged by Mumtaz Qadri in in in Pakistan who had also encouraged the murder of someone to see when that murder took place whilst we had Muslims condemning the murder we had MC be releasing a statement saying well okay Ahmadi you know okay they've been murdered it's bad but they're not Muslims and we we should be allowed to feel free to say they're not Mossad very Muslims of course they are because they declare the same Shahada Islamically if somebody declares themselves as a Muslim you are meant to accept them as a Muslim we don't see that happening here there's this ongoing argument about whether Muslims sorry Ahmed any Muslims well I think it used to if you were to read the writings of the founder that medea who has a good am at MIT he'd say that people who didn't accept him are not Muslims including us and and the reason if I may if I may clarify and the Ahmadiyya to Islam is like the Mormons to Christianity they believe in a new prophet and we all know that when you when there's a new when I was a new it's it's a new Prophet himself said it's not a point though because you believe in a new prophet we'll get exactly what you do believe Khalil but isn't it his point that it is like the Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses who don't do not accept the Trinity Joseph Smith came along for the Mormons a brand new prophet a lot of Christians would say that they're not Christian so alright you described yourself as the fastest-growing revival movement within Islam within Islam all Muslims believe in a messiah to come we believe in His Holiness hazzard musical our mammoths and other Muslims believe that Jesus peace be upon him will come Jesus was also a prophet so I'd like to understand how they distinguish between Jesus and a promised Messiah in the context of prophethood now Hannah mentioned the terrible case of the shopkeeper in Glasgow being murdered and this actually focuses on some of the antipathy and hostility towards your community towards your your shade of faith because the MPAC which is the Muslim Public Affairs Committee it's quite high profile in this country they tweeted when they first heard about the murder murder motivated by Islamophobia hardly any coverage went was uncovered that he was ahmed ayah they deleted that tweet which is most unfortunate and the lady over here made her over important point about you know the fundamental teachings of Islam and the fact that Islam as a religion is in fact United and and so on the basis of that if I were to refer you to the charter of Medina at the time of the Holy Prophet peace and blessings of Allah be upon him he managed to live with other religions very peacefully and so if Islam is saying that usually be able to live with other religions peacefully how is it that Muslims among themselves cannot live peacefully that's a question that we all need to ask I think this attack m'dear yes let's guess the heart of the discussion throughout the history of Islam we've had pluralism we've had diversity that's simply a fact and it's about the way Muslims and choose to interpret that and it's about what the consequences then are for people who choose to practice their faith in the way they wish to so with the Ahmadiyya for example my family from Pakistan we know that many minorities are being persecuted in Pakistan but right the forefront of those minorities is our madea's and Christians and atheists as I said yes so this is really about Muslims and the people who you know people who practice Islam and what their interpretation is of Islam and what I would say is more than any other time the the interpretation when it comes to bigotry is devastating and damaging and it's causing a lot of mayhem particularly for young people who want to have a faith who do you identify with this nun but when they see the way Islam is being taught to the way it's being practiced and I have to make this point really clearly the patriarchal damage and all faiths are patriarchal it's not just Islam is causing damage and devastation and I think Muslims need to be really aware of the consequences of this and those especially those who profess to be leaders particularly Imams and 99% of them are men and we need to ask why ingenuous because in India right the Hindu nationalists are persecuting many minority religions my interpretation is somebody following they salafists there's nothing disingenuous by pointing out that Islam is being used to spread bigotry and hate and intolerance it's being used nothing to do with Islam Islam has been used as a weapon everywhere just as Christianity is looking United States of America little girls are going on relation to women's rights which are being rolled back interpretation of Islam to persecute minorities because they don't know just tolerance different religions in fact I know many situations where Pakistanis have who live in Pakistan have Sikh neighbors and they do kind of joint events community events and they kind of they live quite peacefully the problem is you're generalizing all Muslims in UK and you're generalizing Muslims listen just for the purposes of the next 50 45 50 minutes let's have a little bit of unity some some of yaqoob I just want to do pick up pick up on the idea that was raised from Shaista of patriarchy patriarchy ilysm of course we've had misogyny and patriarchy silencing the voice of women making their genuine lived experiences something which men themselves probably wouldn't want to have and that's across the board you know with faiths and no faiths the dangerous things sometimes is where people can use religion to absolutely silence any other opinion and I would challenge that and I'll challenge it as somebody who's proud to be a Muslim for me being Muslim means to question the very first word that I believe was revealed I believe the Koran is divine is read it grow it's about opening smite being curious and a right from the beginning pluralism not just within but without you know the Quran talks about Christians and Jews as people of the book with the utmost respect even even when Moses please Hindus they accept in the same way human beings I believe in feet drop we don't believe in the original sin we don't believe that people are born and Damned and more sinful than good we believe every single human being is born the capacity for good and for evil and just because either you're born a Muslim will decide to take up the faith you are not guaranteed paradise it's about what you do and only God is ultimate judge it's not for human beings to judge each other a very popular saying that was initially said by the prophet and further emphasized by his successor Ali who was also his son-in-law people are your brethren in faith or your brethren in humanity and that for me encompasses Islam yeah what we are seeing today when it comes to the patriarchal interpretations and the representations it's not something that is religious or according to Islamic theology it is cultural and that's where the conflation becomes quite dangerous this is what is missing at the moment a discussion because over the last 10 or 15 minutes we've been going on and on and on about what is the right narrative in Islam and what is the wrong narrative mine is the better one at least it's better than yours but actually this is not really about narratives as you said it correctly it is about the cultural and a political context actly why I bought it immediately after the death of Prophet factionalism in Islam started and indicates exactly that was a struggle with political authority not only political authority but also cultural divisions I mean a lot of Muslims today it doesn't matter shear or Sunni they think of the time immediately after the death of prophet as maybe the Golden Age of Islam they think of for example the Abbasid period as the Golden Age of Islam that was the time that the science flourished that was the time that basically the Muslim Empire had the monopoly over power in every sense of the time but at the same time there were two other empires there were two other caliphates one in Egypt before and one in Andalusia in Spain also claiming the truth and actually the roots of most of the civil wars in Islam actually started immediately after well should we look at it through actually the prism of the religious wars in Europe in the 16th and 17th power fed by religion you grew up in hang on power pot I've got a lot of stuff to get around you do grew up in a knack my dear how are you viewed well I think there's a lot of discrimination against them these even in this country I would say it's I'm not a spokes person for the MDM of some community but I'm passionate about human rights and I feel it's it's just red for it's just dreadful what's happening in Pakistan where you're getting people telling Emma D Muslims that they are not Muslim and they have to walk around with no identity and I think yes exactly and I think that's absolutely disgraceful I know I also want to comment on that particular issue the audience want to put your hand up here Sadia an ex-muslim in Pakistan the only issue in Pakistan is written into their Penal Code that as an ahmadi if you call yourself a Muslim you will be executed as a blasphemer so you have to talk about Pakistan it's not disingenuous and when we're talking about the legal structures in Pakistan we're talking about lawmakers policy makers those are enforced along we're not talking about every single Pakistani that isn't racist but also what does this lamb say about apostates and gaffer's and non-believers they treat them like less than animals and be honest to me I'd like someone to come in first then I'd like you to come in after dark on is very clear there is no compulsion in religion what was the worst penalty via apostasy so what is it no compulsion religion car but let me bring it down to the patriarchy just before I want to bring Yvonne in on this in just a second and views please from everybody put your hands up about the male domination I know you want to make a point about that as well I left disarm for the second time because of how patriarchal it was because as a wife I would have been beaten I would have been sexually abused I was treated as half a witness so it would have got half the inheritance it some proudly boast that it gave women rights but if you're giving women half the rights it is Islam I've written that I'm not illiterate I'm ready whatever you say about interpretations it's there so was I so was I right with each other when it says wait a minute wait a minute wait a minute what's that about maniacs she she's saying every Muslim no I didn't I'm a Muslim I didn't say that I said Islam says that Islam does not say yes I'm just saying people's interpretation of Islam says that I'm a Reva Muslim so I had to study I studied main religions trying to find the truth so so it's a white version you were reading a web you were told you need to go relook at skew when it says that there must be two female witnesses for one male witness do you believe that to be the case it says it in the holy quran the holy quran says that then there should be wisdom behind it it doesn't mean no lesser than men in situations a women treated better than men wait a minute one second I want to be layin and the bodhran is about to come in I know but sir right yeah I knew a fortune a force in respect to Yvonne please aspire to say something okay do you think it did it's male-dominated sometimes better than a patriarchy go on okay and I embraced Islam as a Western feminists I would not have embraced a religion that would make me a second-class citizen and I hear what you're saying and there are cultural issues unfortunately and there is a patriarchy at play but I particularly studied women's issues when I started took me two years before I decided to embrace Islam it wasn't something that was done without any thought the Holy Koran makes it crystal clear that women are equal in spirituality Worth and education is a single man alive who would dare challenge the Word of God which we believe is the Holy Quran however there are men who will dominate who will twist who will misinterpret and who will skew Islam because they want to control and we see this in cultures we see this in in the patriarchy we see this across not only the Muslim world can I ask you a straight question which I'm going to ask the same question of Abdullah and just in just right after you you came from Western feminism is Western feminism compatible with Islam absolutely I'm living proof of it is West Abdullah okay here's the question are you ready to the question is Western feminism compatible with Islam yes or no and in before I answer that question I'd like to respond Society who wants our billet to answer the question anyway okay right it's Western feminism it's not about with Islam Islam believes in the Equality of men and women in the eyes of God but doesn't necessarily translate into identical gender roles that's the different Western feminism disagrees with that and that's just that's the issue but to respond to what's I don't understand that Nicki you love me you said that I can respond after after Osama to to South I'm interested in your answer question what what is not what is what is incompatible between Western feminism and Islam so I've just stated that Western feminism argues for an identical T of gender roles at least the main street world that well we're talking about Western feminism right so the main the mainstream of course if you present me the holy book of Western feminism we can then discuss what it says but because there is none right and going back then this actually answers a very interesting point about Islam unlike Christians Muslims all agree on the same book right Eastern Orthodox Christians Catholics the Coptic Church Protestants have different Bibles we have the same Quran in fact when it comes to Sharia when it comes to Hodor the political laws and all these things actually all the schools of thought actually have more agreement than any other school or for any other religion even political ideology it's like the liberalism has more difference between how to rule a government and the state then Muslims do of guarding a put-up everyone do you want to come back on any of those I would just say you know there is a lot that unites us and as Abdullah has pointed out you know we do have the the one book the Koran which Muslims universally agree on on as well but when you look at the state of the Muslim world there is a huge problem there and you just look at the leadership the landscape is men purely men somebody talked about the great days of Islam from her answers be quiet please some people and that was when women were shoulder-to-shoulder with the men when there was and Islam you know was financed by a woman an international business trade once women were removed from the landscape that is when there was a decline and you can see it you look at the Middle East it's wall-to-wall men you look at could women be leading prayers do you approve of women leading prayers in my studies of Islam I've never seen a woman lead in men's congregation if women are govern amongst himself they can lead themselves a lot of the interpretation of Islam it goes back to culture again so I was in Bosnia last year and there was no barrier in the mosque I was in between the men in the women there was a lot it was a tiny teeny separation would a woman have led the prayers I think the woman could historically we have had women leading prayers that there was there was a historical account at the time of the prophet of a lady from a Yemeni tribe called America who was instructed to lead her entire tribe in prayer and she was known as as the as the reciter of the Quran and she was assigned more than which is a caller the the the person who makes the call to prayer and she led her entire tribe including men in prayer and I think Sheikh Amin would be able to expand on that a little bit more as well but there is that account there amaura as a Sharia Court judge what about women leaving press is there a problem with misogyny and the patriarchy in we're not talking about Christianity surely there is an evangelical a often we're not talking about other religions were talking about Islam get asked this question by Christians or Jewish people when I'm in in these interfaith for meetings and and they say oh we've got Jewish rabbis and we have a Christian priest now when women are going to become Imams and I I said Islamic Lee if you're going to have any hierarchy at all it's going to be God and God's messengers and then it is scholarship scholarship is what I do and that that is the leading position because in the quran ii it actually says God and His angels and those with knowledge hold this the highest position so it's not we don't try and it's because it happens in Christianity Buddhism or other religions it holds the same status no reading prayers is is in fact someone who knows the prayer the Quran has to lead a prayer and we have young people leading prayers so it's it depends on a particular society their own culture this discussion was took place very early on you think it's okay for women to lead prayers in a mixed congregation there are mosques in Spain for instance the women do lead I know a lady in general you're proof of that this discussion it depends up to the community and that community will decide Islamists is its diverse in in the Quran he talks about people all societies colors communities of animals we have very diverse and it's left to the communities because it's it's big decision it's not hard and fast discussions are very prominent scholars for serene had at the time and they said many of them said there is no problem it's it depends on a particular community a particular society but that's not something that I think I needed to be fighting for because for me scholarship is the earth I believe there is diversity and flexibility the scholars are most most almost yeah I would say 90% so I mean I would say yes women should leave in prior someone should be Imam and then but that is not happening I mean if we have I am Emma reformist I'm with the reform of Islam's I don't know whose would mean that but I would say that there's should be open to in interpretations do you get an interpretation open to interpretations and it should be interpreted in a different I mean this this Islamist today is like a tradition Islam Sarah if we actually in the interpretation of Scripture of course interpretation lovely it's lovely and Brummie born-and-bred yes of a Welsh parent who migrated here in the 1930s and so I'm being very careful what I say these days to protect my nationality and citizen I might end up you know exiled to Pembroke or something which is full of Englishmen [Laughter] merci a Welsh person already has left what would you like to say about what you've heard so far d when we read texts it's not what the text says it's what we say in our heads as we read it that form the impression we take and the interpretation we give to others we're interpreting text even if it's in our own language most people in this room I would say don't read and understand the Quran in Arabic and it's essential to go back to what the Arabic is saying and then apply interpretive critical skills to that reading and we have to read it as today it's a new book every day I don't go to the Quran say I've got to prove this thought I've had I go to the Quran in a sense as a tabula rasa that I don't know what's going to be there I want God to surprise me to tell me something about my today on the question of do you think there is some I'm so sorry it's fascinating what you're saying do you think there are some verses in the Quran which were relevant to the times in terms of social organization and recommendations for how society was to be which are no longer relevant because the times have changed yeah does anyone agree with them is that the case there's no hurry dating the cross there's no expiry date in the carry on if every word in the Quran has ten interpretive meanings when you multiply this out there's an infinite range of understanding that suits time and we have to judge it through ethical standards and moral standards that are inspired by God and by the Prophet Muhammad by Jesus does that mean we adapt to modern mores about Western feminism and so forth the role of women in society here today now what we are a Samaritan I am going back slightly earlier the difference between the Akbari and the Isola is the emphasis that we put on source the Akbari puts a greater emphasis on revealed texts we read in a traditional manner the Isola says I'm going to read this text applying reason deep reading critical reading I use semiology to produce rulings and understandings for today for people who were alive not an attempt to justify people who again okay thank you sadly a first of all Tony first when I was a Muslim that it didn't do that it was very literal and like certain members here today they will say that it's an absolute religion it and it was it was written to last and forever as it is as it was written at the time part of the problem is that it hasn't been willing to reform and reformers then get attacked we know reformers that get death threats constantly because they're saying that we need to drag a song kicking and screaming to the 21st century unwilling to do that and a prime example of that is what's happening right now in Birmingham with a school where are teachers trying to simply teach kids that some kids have to does let's go there now we've got one of the parents who's protesting is that your good self yeah welcome thank you very much for coming on basically we're talking about the school in Birmingham Park field school you've got something to say on that as well and it's it's been a very lively debate over the last few weeks that particular one and it's a school that what's it called it's the outsiders but you're basically saying that we're all the same and it's okay some children will have to mummy's some children might have two daddies and that's absolutely fine now some people who make describe themselves as reformers seeing that message that everybody's equal and we must love each other we must respect each other and it's age appropriate might say that surely is the message of Islam so what's your problem with him well basically we don't really have a problem with the person who is trying to teach his program which is mr. Moffet we never had any problems with him in the past so far as we were not aware of preaching because sadly we've not been consulted as parents we had rights and school yeah yeah it's the law we will for the law and for the Equality and the British values and stuff but the only thing his parents still have you know the rights to teach certain personal things to the children when they're at home and this kind of teaching doesn't have to be done into what kind of teaching is that when it comes to we're not talking about the Equality rights or the British values we all for diversity and we respect everyone we don't judge anyone that's what we've always been taught and we want our children to learn what aspects of the teacher the aspects that we disagree for children from nursery so the edge of 9/10 is the LGBT lessons we were not aware of it and that's why we disagree teaching an LGBT lessons well they only teach into kids which is confusing them that you know certain kids have 2002 months we don't disagree with them we don't judge people in our religion and Islam is about tolerance so we accept everyone I mean something was taught in those lessons that you absolutely objective we objected that we didn't we objected because we were not consulted so for us what specific thing is being taught that you find unacceptable because I have two parents as well as talk to some of the leader of the school the main issue although it's been projected a lot as just Muslims a little BT rights the main issues that parents were not consulted and actually according to the law I want to know what's in what's in the lesson that you find unacceptable I find that they shouldn't be teaching kids things that they're too young to know about that's like for example having two moms in two dads this is personal stuff if children have two moms and two dads or or whatever they want to have it's in their homes first of all this is we any and we don't mind any taking apart the argument about that consultation which is it this is the Christians you should say but let me just finish this point the program is called no outsiders the ironic thing is that parents themselves have been made to feel like outsiders because ironic thing is that there's a religious minority within a religious minority who are protesting about diversity I think one of the most beautiful things about our country is the fact that we have the Equality Act is the fact that no matter what lifestyle you choose as long as you're not harming somebody else or imposing on anybody else that we have that live and let live what is that a lifestyle choice it's who we are live on Friday very good radio station it was and one of the speakers on there was a father who is part of the earlier protests and he said that oh we did have a consultation but only a few parents turned up and those few parents that didn't understand what celebrity celebrating diversity and differences I mean why didn't you question that in itself but also what I find is really angry about it all is that you talk about Islam is about tolerance to meet Islam is about acceptance if you're not going to accept LGBT people for who we are what difference does it make to you or you or you because what I do in my life as you said earlier about the high heels oh you should go to hell I've been I organized the intersection Hampton Islam conference at a while ago with LGBT individuals the person who came in was a religious leader he was turned away for whatever reason he went online and he said that being LGBT it's Haram and you're all gonna go to Hellfire and damnation that's not that is not that I know that is my you've spoken a lot you've spoken a lot in here that you've you've spoken a lot in here the arrogance of your attitude towards people toward women [Applause] nice attitude towards people about weight I'm going to give you a breather now you believe so you believe the CBT is who we are it's not about choice and you know you're shaking your head you're living in there for just one second everybody because respond to her because you just said everybody equal you are the way you are and that's your nature and you were shaking your head why I'm just shaking my head because a lot of people sadly you know misunderstand what was going on and a lot of people from the LGBT community they got heated up not understanding what was going on at the school and why the parents were frustrated the re revision while we were all frustrated and upset we haven't slept for weeks we haven't been able to eat be kids body weight it's not what if one of your children turns out realizes when they're a teenager that they are gay we have no way of knowing that we don't know what's going to happen in the future work has been laid to say that there is absolutely nothing wrong with that it is natural it's natural we don't know if it's natural or not natural about me so everybody that I speak to it than the LGBTQ community especially those who identify as Muslim they feel the same thing I write them that I've run a social support group here in Birmingham the amount of people that come through the doors they say they identify as Muslim the LGBT and they wait a minute they also talk about how it impacts on their mental health how they're being abused how they're being ostracized how the being got to do with Parkfield we're going to keep it on this particular issue but we're going to just broaden it out and get other perspectives Paul in a moment but also on this issue yeah what would you like to say the park field issue right field issue yeah the park field issue I mean I would say I'm opposed to the protests yeah I'm not happy about them and I feel that we're kind of feeding into like a right wing assumption because what's happening is wait which one fight against you know a lot of racism you know this Daniel in this country as moves to this fetus Lambo phobia absolutely aren't they the Muslim homophobes feeding Islamophobia would you like to say something I think I think it's quite disingenuous return for people to turn around and start breaking into conversations interrupting comments that's what I'm not allowing opinions to be tinted victim recording people Homo phobes is not wrong because called the race people debate and discipline again you're speaking over me can you just be quiet for a moment [Applause] you're annoying now can we going back to my the funding actually a sister here she's an Islamic school should be a neutral place classic example I don't say Paul what might be a good thing to do would be just move the action along to here Paul is Sufi Muslim firstly yeah oh yeah yeah yeah I want to talk about Sufism it you know in a way why I wanted to comment on this bombing yeah before anything else because my concern is I mean I understand the concerns of the parents if you weren't quite sure what's being taught in the school but at the same time you know this I seen the material that was sent to me because going back a while back when these first sees you come up about two money's two daddies it's about inclusion it's about teaching children not every family follows the same model and that if there were families which are different to accept those children and not to believe them it's an inclusive thing and my other concern is because of this whole for all that's been raised up by some people in the community and it's given in the Islamic face that though some children within that school undoubtedly at least a few of them are going to grow up to be LGBT I know I have canceled LD LD between Muslims and supported them and they're growing up with the message that they are unaccepted in the community and that they cannot possibly be both Muslim and LGBT when this is wrong this is not true you had your hand up a little bit earlier on what's wrong with being gay gay is the choice of somebody but it's a choice to me says natural bppm says natural everything is natural cannibalism is a natural oh I see anything is natural are you comparing it to Kelsey comparing it to cannibalism is natural why scoliosis I met this lady everyone jumped on her just because she's got her opinion pursue this particular form let me pursue this particular why do you why do you why do you not think that's being gay everyone I know who's gay knew they were gay it was natural there was nothing that ever make a decision to be gay there was never no evidence to that so to me I just see that as just maybe it was maybe it wasn't but to me that's just their choice that they can choose to be or not some some some people felt that they were born game and then they change out of the way some some some some some people weren't gay and then it came down the way that's just their choice it's right that it's legal today it's right that it's legal wait if people wanted to believe that is their choice and their choice as well no I know I didn't just going to get your response then we're going to get Salma then I'm going to move it over there because there's lots of people over there who haven't had a chance to speak yet in a nice calm measured a considered way and I know you're hearing things that are quite offensive for you as an LGBTQ man and I appreciate that I also when I hear the comparison to cannibalism I find that extremely offensive but we're in a form of we're in a form to an extent of free speech here what would you like to say in response first of all when you are LGBT it is not a choice being LGBT is just talking about Islam being United we talk about Islam being United is that you know to divide it already became so many diverse voices here which are in a disagreement for a start and also please don't please me here right now thank you let me just say that within Islam within the scriptures because I read the switches when I was coming out so many moons ago that there was nothing that category of his States that homosexuality is a sin or forbidden you might refer to the story of Lutz and what that entails but you you get you as a straight man I suppose you get yourself into tis for being you know Oh what we do in our bedrooms and our lives is our business the how is life with you at the moment it's all is it all good now I know you are I know you were Labour councillor and you work in a very diverse community and you're a great performer as well and you do sir I'm just sort of something but listen there are broader points we spoke it about women and we spoken about apostasy and we've spoken as well about the whole LGBT issue of this particular school do you appreciate that some people when they're looking from the outside in see homophobia and they see misogyny and they see perhaps from people I know say this who are who Muslims they see a false representation and a damaging representation of the faith which actually feeds Islamophobia of course they do I spend a lot of time working with young people I was in a school in London on Friday and I was there as International Women's Day and I had the great honour of speaking to young girls about representation and you know who represents them and I was devastated to hear one young girl say the only time recently she's seen someone who looks like her Shamima Begum and my breath was taken away this before what are we doing to our young people that this is the only image they see of themselves I meet a lot of young Muslims LGBTI this is not their choice they are born as this and they do not see any issue with being a Muslim and being who they are society has the problem with them not that many and it is absolutely disgraceful to put pressure on anyone to say you can either be who you are or be a Muslim you cannot separate these two issues and I've also [Applause] spoken to me and said excuse me could you just please let me speak I've met grown men who've been in tears and they've come to me and said I have tried to go to the mosque I've tried to go there and I don't feel welcome I don't know what to do and I say to them listen plenty of people don't feel welcome in mosques it's just a fact whether people want to accept it or not but you have to find the way to be who you are and to not be apologetic about who you are and I just want to sit finish on this one point my family are from Pakistan we have very progressive laws around the transgender community where the third sex is enshrined into the Pakistani Constitution that does not mean that there are not horrific attacks against trans people and trans women no one can deny that what I'm saying is what I'm saying here is that Muslims if Muslims need to understand that if somebody staff identifies as a Muslim that's the end of it full stop right I want to move on to okay okay listen everyone we're gonna move on to I want to talk about Sufism I want to top the international situation with you our Shin and also these the so called sectarian strife but before I do not know what I'm gonna do I'm gonna and I want to speak try and get you in as well as one before you and I'm going to give a right of reply to Abdullah Thank You Nicki just to kind of clarify I I think my audience member made a slight error in the terms um homosexuality or LGBT or gay is not in the Islamic text it doesn't discuss it but there's no term like that media in the Bible or anything like that but what it is in Islam is that there's a prohibition in the Quran of same-sex intercourse premarital intercourse and extramarital intercourse right the action is certain actions are prohibited to hit heterosexuals and to homosexuals on whoever people's sexuality like like Kinsey discussed is on a scale actually and people don't choose obviously they're there their tastes and their preferences and what they like that is true and no one's denying that and I don't like to use the word homosexual when Muslims use it cuz they tend to do they do under the misunderstand that term it doesn't always refer to someone that has to engage in certain activities it's just refers to that they have preferences they have things that they like that other people might not like or what-have-you and different sexualities and not everyone's also black or white as Kinsey also argued right so what some prohibits is certain activities actions but people's tastes obviously if God doesn't judge you for what tastes okay people's taste preferences desires God doesn't judge you for the desires in your heart good only judges you for the actions YouTube okay so right just Finch awful so it does not justify people who have desires does not justify anyone mistreating them or abusing them or not working in them anyone who whatever desires they have and as human beings we all have desires of certain simple kinds or what have you everyone's working in the mosque and everyone is welcome in a Muslim community right okay so the sex before marriage is no problem there because gay people can get married so that's that sorted out option what about the international situation the sectarians we move on international context really it seems that there is a very interesting kind of theological debate and I'm not a theologian but as far as I'm concerned that we don't have to find every possible problem or not should use that same problem issue facing us in the 21st century with in a theological context for example think of slavery mm-hmm I don't want to start another econo theological debate here but it seems that there are a lot of theologians who believe that actually at the beginning slavery was endorsed or at least accepted islamically but what happens in 21st century you can't find a single Muslim country that at least legally endorses a slavery so that means actually they tried to go beyond the theological and the religious context to find a solution for an issue which is facing us in the Torah moving feast so even even okay supposedly supposedly supposedly all right and I'm not entirely sure about that kind of theological dimension supposedly you are right there is a kind of very specific Islamic a kind of law which says that homosexuality is not accepted the wider world just in the same way that will be on slavery we could easily basically find a bitter and humane context for homosexuality as well [ __ ] it let's move on Paul I know you're a Sunni I'm a Sunni but Sufism it's it's roomy one of my favorite poets who's written just fine tangling poetry Omar Khayyam as well they said there's a nexus there's a connection between spirituality and sensuality in Sufism if you could define Sufism in one sentence you get my viewers well Sufism is the beating heart of Islam Sufism is the essence of Islam and you know without its you inle left with an empty shell and that empty shell can go completely wrong as we've seen in the Iraq and Syria in recent years so this is the the danger when we take the spirituality out of Islam and we replace it with just the legalistic framework and this is not Islam are not Sunni Islam not Shia Islam historically so this is where Islam is kind of lost this is weighing at least with some Muslims yeah so what's the nature of your worship of your spiritual experience well there's two aspects to it it's like when I do the normal worship they're all Muslim student prayer in the mosque it's a meditation for me as well as a prayer it's much it's much deeper it's not just reading a few things that actions are I actually on transported to somewhere else when I'm actually praying but in addition to that we do like meditation circles there is music use there is poetry and this is outside of the mosque in others you know there were things that we do so it's like and it's not something that all Muslims have to do but it is something that we we do because worship is not just restricted to acts in the mosque you know worship can be any anything that we do in life that is a beautiful thing is a good thing it can be an active this is this is what sort of encouraged me to toward she Islam because it was finding that connection when we're told to prayer to stand in prayer in in particular the books that I've read that help me in my journey towards years well it was about that conversation that you're having we thought this was my time to talk to God so join us in this conversation and for me that was the draw I mean like many Muslims maybe you've grown up here I was put off by Muslims yes right I think how you know what they did in the name of Islam and I did my reading I read about lots of different faiths and I was almost kind of irritated that when I read the Koran it was like oh this is actually saying something which I agree with it because I didn't expect it well it's on women's rights all sorts but for me the most important thing was that very personal issue of God there's a verse in the Quran which says I'm closer to you anyway how that's yours real and deep is your spiritual understanding is it still advancing as it's still evolving very quickly it's still evolving I think we're all on the journey but I think this far much more that unites us than divides us you know we all pray in the same direction we all pray to the one God being a Muslim is like being pregnant you either are or you're not you know we believe in the five pillars of Islam and I think that we just need to keep things simple people say what sort of Muslim are you I'm not Sunni I'm not Shia or Sufi I'm just an ordinary yes everyone on this front row are Muslim yes it's not for me to judge but I would guess I mean what does a Muslim look like you know we've got a great diver thank you all very much indeed as always debates continue online and on Twitter this is the last edition of the big questions for this year so it's goodbye from now in the meantime have a great Sunday and a wonderful summer and we'll see you very very soon thank you for watching [Applause] [Music]

Channel: DONALD TV

Views: 190,278

Keywords:

Id: 5UreGFJY_Aw

Length: 58min 23sec (3503 seconds)

Published: Sun Mar 10 2019