Irshad Manji vs Mehdi Hasan: Head to Head Debate on Al Jazeera

1.6 billion Muslims and rising that's one in four of the world's population in all four corners of the globe is a religion of peace Islam is a religion of peace a religion of peace but Islam has an image problem critics see Muslim women as oppressed Sharia law is considered barbaric sectarian conflict dominates the headline and then there's terrorism for Muslims it's a gross misrepresentation but not for Irshad Manji whose controversial first book the trouble with Islam today described Muslims as an army of automatons I'm Maggie Hassan and tonight in the Oxford Union I'll be going head-to-head with the outspoken Canadian author and self-described Muslim refuse now ladies and gentlemen Irshad Manji she believes Muslims need to align much more on their own Islamic tradition of each dahab or independent reasoning and completely rethink their attitudes to the West welcome earshot to head-to-head thank you very much for joining us let's kick off this discussion with perhaps the most important question because a lot of people know you from your first book which was called the trouble with Islam today what is the trouble with Islam today in your view in a word Muslims we are the trouble with Islam today we have allowed tribal culture to colonize the faith of Islam but the good news in saying this is that we are also the source of reform meaning that we can literally draw inspiration from our own scripture from the Koran in order to reform our hearts our spirits and our beings and one passage that has been profoundly inspirational for me is the one that states believers conduct yourselves with justice and bear true witness before God and here is the revolutionary part even if it be against yourselves your parents or your relatives this is a call for moral courage this is a call to stand up when others want you to sit down and it is part of what makes Islam as a faith revolutionary in the 21st century not just in the seventh it's fascinating to hear you say this because a lot of your critics and you have a fair few critics especially within the Muslim community their objection to you over the years my understanding is that you say there's a problem with Islam and a lot of Muslims say and I would count myself among stirring to say there's a problem with Muslims certainly with many Muslims definitely need some form of reform change revolution whatever you want to call it but Islam is the religion don't bring Islam into it where do you stand on this it is a problem with Muslims however maybe let's ask ourselves what is Islam Islam isn't some theory Islam is a way of life and it is we Muslims who define what that way of life is and so if we are stopping one another from expressing our diversity then the message we are sending to each other not just to the rest of the world to one another is that this is Islam I don't buy that tribal culture is not Islam but we have made ourselves in the problem with Islam they come to tribal culture but I I would question the premise which says Islam is defined by what Muslims do because if that's the basis then what is the point of a holy Brook what is the point of a holy prophet what is the point of Scripture revelation to God but they're not the defining features of a religion it's the behavior of Muslims that defines in every generation what Islam is Jannetty is defined by Christian of course so I can condemn Christianity for something say george w bush is done you can condemn the way christianity is being practiced and if a Christian is practicing Christianity in the name of Christ in a way that is violent in a way that is intolerant I don't believe that there is anything blasphemous about saying that there is trouble within Christianity today almost a chicken-and-egg argument what came first the Muslims sure and and I understand you know where so much of the criticism of just this phrase the trouble with Islam today is coming from but so many people who hadn't read the book and still haven't said oh you know your your your your blackballing Islam with a wide brush and I said to them have you read the book because most of the book is about HD have it's about you know thinking creatively creatively and independently and this is a tradition within Islam itself so in fact there is nothing wrong with Islam that cannot be corrected by what is right with it it's not clear we hear this phrase bandied about in the West a great deal about moderate Muslims you're not a fan of moderate Muslims you think moderate Muslims quote a part of the problem not the solution correct basically I make the case for being a reformist Muslim not just a moderate one and here's why moderate Muslims do denounce a violence that is committed in the name of Islam very much so but they deny that religion plays any role in that violence the very first thing you will hear from the mouth of moderate typically after an act of violence committed in the name of Islam is please don't misunderstand Islam has nothing to do with this but that's not true because those who are committing the violence cite Islam as our inspiration what reformist Muslims do it to define the writer what reformist Muslims do is that we acknowledge there is violence but we also say that the way in which some people are using our religion is that they are inspired by religion to commit that violence in other words when moderate Muslims say that Islam has nothing to do with this they are the ones in my humble view who are seeding the ground who are handing over the ground of theological interpretation to those who already have malignant intentions but we have to acknowledge that there are verses that terrorists are using and that they should not have the last word you can't do that if you're going to say Islam has nothing to do with this violence why don't you say the last word many Muslims would say why not go back to the first word why are we interpretation when there is already a massive body of scholarship classical scholarship which says you do not kill civilians you do not launch pre-emptive surprise attacks on innocent targets so why get into this reinterpretation debate with people who don't really deserve to be debated with because they are criminals they mass murderers who are using the Quran as cover sure that crime when I talk about reinterpretation I am indeed talking about taking away these malignant interpretations from terrorists and so what many Muslims and not just non-muslims will know about Islam is what makes the headlines today that is why I use the word reinterpret because already power is being given through our passivity through our silence relative silence already power is being given to terrorists to define Islam passivity I mean I heard that in 2001 I remember after the 7th time the 11th attacks people said where are the Muslims even though lots of Muslim scholars around the world came out and condemned the 9/11 attacks quite quickly well not quickly they had to be pressured into doing so I think you'll find for example Sheikh Fadlallah who is condemned as a hizbollah cleric we can have a debate who died recently he condemned the 9/11 attacks within 24 hours most clerics ten years condemned 9/11 condemned 77 and do so on the basis of the firaon and yet you come here and you say that their silence and their passive and I worry that you're playing into all sorts of stereotypes about Muslims already exist you know I tell you what plays into stereotypes what plays into stereotypes is the relative silence and defensiveness of Muslims who say you're sad you're empowering Islamophobes when Muslims become defensive about this what the the message that they're sending to actual Islamophobes is we have something to hide because now we're just getting angry and emotional over an argument like hers rather than calmly debating it if I said you call me silence that the Quran condemns violence against civilians the Quran does not justify al-qaeda attacks on the Twin Towers but the point is scholars in Britain coming out in 2001 saying this is against the Quran the Quran condemns these things but these are the same kinds of people who have said things like Islam and the Quran in particular is just unequivocal that if you kill a human being it is like killing all of mankind not true actually the verse itself chapter 5 verse 32 reads if you kill a human being it is like killing all of mankind unless you are killing that human being as punishment for violence or murder or other villainy in the land okay so I'm saying that moderate Muslims cannot simply sanitize what does exist in the Quran we need to get you know we need to get honest okay we need to offer bold and competing reinterpretations of what is actually in the Quran rather than putting periods and other punctuation marks that don't exist okay well let me bring in shift Ibrahim Moger is assistant secretary-general of the Muslim Council of Britain he's an imam several mosques in Leicester you heard the verse she cited is the Quran all Muslims behaving defensively about such verses are they hiding behind punctuation in your view well I feel they're shads also being very selective and putting the punctuation marks where they're not necessary the verse of the Koran certainly talks about the sanctity of human life and the need for the preservation of human life and how wrong it is to take human lives and when you extend your argument to say that it talks about except in in response to violence or murder well it is not for lay Muslims people on the street to take the law into their own hands and when you say that we have not engaged with you for 10 years I'd rather that you would have approached the scholars instead of sitting down to write a book and say guys this is what we want to talk about sir with all due respect you guys as you could have not actually engaged with people like me in fact I've received a number of invitations from ordinary Muslims who are part of congregations all over the world who are excited about these arguments but in every single case no exaggeration in every single case they have written back to me to say actually I'm sorry irshad the board has decided that they're not ready and the congregation is not ready to hear these arguments you you seem to be suggesting that this is the best thing since sliced bread right we are always willing to engage and when you talk about the lack of condemnation of terrorism the Muslim Council of Britain without any prompting from anyway we're one of the first to condemn it just because you have not heard of that doesn't mean it's not however I bring in earshot to respond dr. holiday OBE is a Syrian writer broadcaster filmmaker you're shaking your head at Sheikh Ibrahim speaking first I want to say that I do agree with her that the problem is not with Islam as a religion as much the problem with us the Muslims if we go back to what happened September 11 or July 7 in in London those people who did that they believed they were performing and active she had not an act of terrorism and if you look to most of the videos which has been sent by those terrorists they were doing that in the name of Allah and in the name of his clan Miriam Francois Sura is also here she is a journalist a broadcaster and academic what do you make of what I think part of the problem is that they are going back to those verses I've just been teaching a course on religious extremism and the extremists are generally speaking politicized individual who are operating in a framework where the dominant lexicon is Islam that is the idiom of the society in which they operate and therefore in order to make themselves audible to the population of course they express themselves by reference to Islam this is a specialist area when I have a medical issue or a legal issue or a financial issue I will go to the experts we're talking about spirituality we're talking about religion and faith we're talking about the Hereafter and I wouldn't want to allow ok laypeople to search on seeing the experts you're doing you're doing DIY Islam no spirituality spirituality I've heard it over and over and over again and I remember in Indonesia when this point was made to me and a scholar certified scholar sitting right next to me said to the person making your point sir he said if you're going to go as far as to compare spirituality to medicine or accounting well in medicine there is a principle called first do no harm you can actually sue a doctor for doing harm maybe we should be able to sue mullahs to for doing harm why are you against expertise especially you know it's interesting because the reason I can embrace the Quran is that you know three times as many verses in the Quran call on Muslims to think and rethink and analyze as you've pointed out rather than submit blindly so by that criterion actually all of God's creatures Muslims especially are called upon to keep thinking it's not about expertise it's about remembering sir that you are not God and I am NOT God and therefore none of us can claim to have the right interpretation would you get rid of all scholars Imams mullahs as you call them anyone get rid of all of it I would help equip a new generation of Muslims with the self-confidence to recognize that they are allowed to think for themselves question I'm asking about specifically coming up with laws understanding verses of the Quran understanding traditions of Islam understanding what you know ethics Islamic ethics are how can every single person just make that up as they go along surely in every religion in every society in every field of life you defer to experts people with specialist knowledge well again I don't know which well wait a minute you know as we found out with the 2008 global economic meltdown which was not predicted by the experts experts often aren't experts okay so let's stop playing the power game Mandy let's stop playing on the terms of people who call themselves experts and who like to use their power as a cudgel as a sledgehammer over everybody else who are the people you ask who I ask if I'm thinking for myself but I will tell you everything you don't need any help in understanding the Quran let's hear the interpretation their history the ethics the most common questions that I get from young Muslims is about interfaith relationships I'm a Muslim I've fallen in love with a non-muslim is there any hope for us and they usually say something along the lines of that my parents and their Imam insist that Islam you know stops interfaith marriage is that true rather than me giving them my personal interpretation what I've come to realize is that they're actually not asking about themselves they're asking about their parents they need an argument that will convince their parents that love is borderless what my worry is if you buy this argument that the mullahs are all bad everyone thinks I read two of your books they didn't come up very well don't polarize a lot of them a lot of them are bad we think for ourselves we don't allow them to monopolize power and the power game etc and my worry is my worry is if I'm in al-qaeda that's very appealing I don't need to worry about classical law scholarship I just make up my own religion I give a fatwa saying kill the Jews and they go and they do that's all true validating them because you're saying from a liberal perspective we make it up as we go along and they from an extremist perspective say let's make it up as we go and you're almost empowering the very people you claim to be fighting you know that's that's a very I think that's an excellent point I've heard it before and I've said it before that's an excellent point good in theory wonderful in theory but again I live in the world of reality and the reality is that people like this already exist and this is why progressive thinkers and I wish there were more people in positions of religious authority who would take that power and actually democratize so the HD had so that young people know that they are worthy of thinking about these issues for themselves yes in a non-violent way but actually developing that personal relationship with Allah rather than believing that they are here to worship allows self-appointed ambassadors will be very clear before we move on just for the viewers you talked about HD hard how do you define each to have HD had this Islam's own tradition of independent thinking of critical reasoning of debate descent and reinterpretation and yes I have heard a thousand times that only certain people are allowed to exercise HD hats but even that is up for debate but let me just come back to the point you made a moment ago you said let's not play the journalism game that's not generalized the polarization go it's a very good point I'm glad you raised up because I reread both your books and I found myself nodding through a lot of the pages saying I agree with this she's right about the way women are treated in a lot of Muslim countries a lot of Muslim communities she's right about violence predilection for violence she's right about a lot of areas ignorant critical thinking a lot of things here's where you and I differ I read your books and I see only polarization I see you painting in primary colors it's all black and white it's West is great Muslim world is all backward they don't think for themselves data they're all automatons to use your phrase when the world open well then I have to say then then you're reading those books from your particular lens what do I do with the centric one sentence under the Arab code of honor yeah Muslims are taught to abdicate our individuality and accept our fate as the property of our families what all 1.6 billion of us I don't do that I'm sure my parents didn't do that one of my friends do that when you say 1 billion Muslims need permission to think you're not just talking about Arabs I'm saying that there is much fear still among a new generation when I went to Cairo five years ago even okay but you know a massive protests against the Mubarak regime young woman comes up to me and she says oh she said I know you get a lot of questions from young young Muslims here's mine she said I have fallen in love with a Jewish man and I don't know how to tell my parents she said Here I am putting my life on the line to achieve political change in my country of Egypt but the more frightening thing for me is to speak with my own family about love frightening thing why not say some women in Egypt need the permission to think freely why say 1 billion Muslims why feed into the Islamophobes you mentioned earlier by implying that a billion Muslims do not think for themselves again when you read my point in its context you understand that I am giving shades of grey and nuance but of course like any person who's making a particular argument you make particular statements in order to drive the point home but if you're trying to win over Muslims and reform the community when you say things like we have to own up to quote Muslim complicity in the Holocaust yes yes complicit in the Holocaust I think that anybody who denies that Muslims played a very important role in the Holocaust a Palestinian I think is your example I'm just a Palestinian Muslim who died fighting it what do you do to their memories I what I do is I write about it in a la liberté and love that's what I just as I do not disown the notion of Christian complicity in the Holocaust I'm simply saying that we do specialize we work everything down Ashlin muslims have a lot of catching up to do in the Descent department one thing I noticed when I was reading the book you say you say well there are plenty of women you would agree in the world in Muslim world who wear the headscarf who wear hijab and they are fighting the battles you would want them to fight against domestic violence against rape against female circumcision and the rest how do you think they feel when you refer to having Warner hijab as wearing a condom over my head or calling it a faux symbol of modesty a symbol of Arab tribal culture they're not really gonna get on board your reform project are there when you refer to them as that way no actually that's not true because again you are assuming that the only people who care about this subject are people who would be offended by by notions like this quite the opposite I can't begin to tell you how many women who do choose to wear the hijab have said thank you for making this point and I want you to know in many cases they say that I choose to do this for myself but I have struggled with it just as you are calling on me to now defend the rights of women on whom he job is opposed you're calling on me as someone who has the luxury to choose it you're calling on me to fight for the rights of other women who don't want to choose it and that's exactly the point you are perfectly free to choose but the point is choose you see your role part of your list speaking truth to power when you say I speak truth to power I also worry that there are people in power not in the Muslim world in London in Washington DC toronto tel aviv who you're not speaking truth to you're telling them what they want to hear they want to hear that this is a problem with Islam it's not a problem with our policies and Irshad Manji is saying I agree with you no I have not let anybody off the hook I am in fact distinguishing between politics culture and religion you talk about the Armenian Genocide in 1915 carried out by the Turks the Turks tonight was a genocide Armenian Genocide recognized by many countries you refer to it as a Muslim crime why is it not a Turkish crime why does everything get boiled down it's almost again that you're playing in which are unwittingly perhaps the extremist game because you're defining everything through an Islamic prison when something is done in the name of a particular religion or a particular God that is when I think we can legitimately apply the the name of the religion to that crime the moment people you know sincerely believe that the Quran has nothing to do with this violence is the moment when terrorists who commit these crimes in the name of Allah will no longer be able to get away with them okay strong views we are going to come back and continue this in part two we're speaking very freely here and having a very interesting debate join us for part two when we'll be talking to irshad about all of those other issues that she challenges in her book and we'll also be hearing from our audience here in the Oxford Union join us for part two after the book welcome back to part two of head-to-head we are talking with Irshad Manji author of trouble with Islam today and allah liberty and love irshad we've been talking about whether Islam needs reform what role the Quran plays in violence the hijab I want to talk about where this all comes from in a sense if we take a step back dare I say because both of your books are quite autobiographical in a way and you you talk about your childhood a great deal how much of your crusade if I can call it a loaded word a reform project how much of a reform project is to do with your childhood and your upbringing in your background because you write very movingly in your first book about how your father beat you chased you around with a knife at one stage you talk about your motherís a teacher in school being very stern or steer anti-semitic not wanting you to ask questions I'm wondering whether that's where this impetus came from to question to demand reform etc and I'm also wondering whether you've extrapolated from your childhood experiences and made perhaps universal or global conclusions on the basis of what happened to you first of all I don't think that that's what I'm doing but I'm fallible and you know acknowledge that perhaps subconsciously that's where it's all coming from I will say however that we've just finished talking about a number of human rights abuses that are committed in the name of religion now with or without my childhood those things would still be committed so of course I'm not using my childhood as the impetus for some you know universalizing but my childhood as anybody's childhood will influence how you think whether you think and whether you give yourself the permission to think and so for example that episode of my father chasing me through the house with a knife in his hand incidentally my father was nominal as a Muslim he didn't really practice and I knew that from the get-go but that one night I flew out of my bedroom window and crawled up to the very top of the roof and I surveyed the neighborhood I remember making a pact with myself and with Allah that I'm going to use education not just for my own liberation but also for the betterment of whoever else is around me this is a young woman's journey to reconcile her faith with the freedom that she has been given in a part of the world in which her own parents did not grow up and one could say that this is the kind of journey that a you know whole generation of Muslims is also undergoing right now do you believe that your experience they say for example in a madrassa where you weren't taught about other faiths you were taught a lot of hateful things a lot of ignorant things I get a sense that you you think that's a common experience to many other Muslims and many mother SS no no and you know I've not said that and I wouldn't say that because how would I know but certainly I use not just the experience of what happened within the madrasa but also maybe remember when I talked about being kicked out of the madrasa for asking too many questions I also make the point that I did not leave the faith why because even at that age of 14 I realized that maybe this is just an individual this teacher of mine who was telling me the wrong things about Islam and so I need to figure this out for myself those Muslims who didn't go through that journey who didn't have those experience do you understand why they perhaps when they read your book and the chapter says thank God for the West we owe the West our ability to critically think in question they don't agree with you they think well I didn't like this great but I didn't I don't write that we owe the West our ability to think critically not at all in fact a huge part of my argument is that again Islam has its own tradition of critical thinking and that there is nothing except for petty politics that should stop us from rediscovering that tradition in the 21st century the refuge neckline the kind of outside of the critical thinker do you think that mantle came to you partly because you're a gay Muslim in a faith where gay Muslims have their human rights have used in a lot of Muslim majority societies maybe but the reality is that I didn't know this about myself when I was a kid never even thought about it so so I personally don't think that if I was you know if I was straight I would like to believe that I would be arguing exactly what I'm arguing now but only Allah knows I just want to bring in Sheikh Ibrahim more grace till here who is an imam in in several mosques when you hear about your son's journey what do you say to those people who do say Muslims and non-muslims that mosques are places where not just Iran's most but other mosques are places in the West there is this accusation where children are being indoctrinated brainwashed being taught all sorts of reactionary things I pity the teacher who threw you out for asking too many questions one of the key reasons what makes me go to mother Assad to teach every single day is looking forward to the kids asking those questions or shaking your head once more I was brought up in in Middle East as a child in in North Africa in Syrian and in several places in the Middle East and Islam which I was taught it was very strong and brutal Islam where you as women should not do many things because you are women because you are an inferior creature to man you can't ride bike because you are women you can't walk in the street on your own because you are women Islam which I knew when I lived in the Middle East and actually my journey from Middle East to the West at certain point I was thinking of of Islam as very very brutal religion to women however when I came to the West I had an opportunity to really discover my faith and really to reconcile with my face because I will tell you we have ability here as women to debate with the scholars like Sheikh Ibrahim Agra and other scholars we are allowed to go to the mosque we are allowed to talk about Islam and also we learn about democracy and freedom of speech we talk about embrace and not being harsh I read through your book and I see that time and again you know you and I I would argue both hate the violent extremists in our religion we hate the people who were treating dr. holiday are badly we both agree on that we don't like what they do we don't know what they stand for but there seems to be a moment where there's a lot of name-calling in your works Islam or tribalists freedom haters foundamental ist's Islam supremacists that's very interesting because you define Islam supremacist Islam supremacist is anybody who believes that Islam is the only truth available to humankind and from my point of view that is actually on qur'anic because again the Quran calls on us to be humble in our interpretations now in calling the behavior of an Islam supremacist on qur'anic am i name-calling am i being divisive am i being dismissive y'all being a little bit division I'm being descriptive and you have to stand for something maybe I stand for human rights and that means that I have a lot of the people you call as Salm supremacist I have to say they stand for humans of human rights they would say that they stand for human rights as well they just happen to believe that Islam is the truth as a Christian believes Christianity is the truth but and I do believe Christians and plenty of Jews and plenty of other people including atheists who do not believe that their truth their particular truth is the one and only truth that is available to humankind anybody who believes that is a supremacist a dogmatist of some kind and I make no apologies for saying so well on that note about the main I agree you should be able to criticize people you disagree with and there's a lot Muslims to be criticized at the beginning criticize me is the difference in very vehement here's the difference here's the difference here's what a lot of Muslims would say they would say Muslim communities particularly in the West where you're going to feel besieged they feel under fire they feel discriminated against I believe you came here from France to the UK in France many Muslims would argue there's rampant Islamophobia and there's very little context of that in your book the point is is that you know if we Muslims are going to cling to the rest of the world as we should that we are a diverse lot then that diversity needs to be heard and felt written within so if we're suppressing each other's freedom of expression then we are the first people to be stereotyping ourselves diversity begins put yourself in the position of a Muslim male or female who is living in an area in Europe where the far-right are on the rise there's racist attacks in your street or in your community there are politicians saying they want to ban your meat or your clothing and here comes Irshad Manji to tell you that the problem is all of you lot not the West which gave us the enlightenment and freedom and democracy and doesn't engage with the far-right and the discrimination again if we're going to become ultra defensive about the need for critical thinking in our faith then the message that we convey to the very people whom you say our Islamophobes is that we have something to hide and that's why we get angry and that's why we you know girl [ __ ] was at one another and that's why we get emotional about arguments like mine and dr. D herbs last year I wrote an article in a British newspaper about how Muslims should take the Holocaust much more seriously in my experience has form too much Holocaust denial in the most communities I move in here in the UK and Muslim groups have not joined in Holocaust Memorial Day celebrations in the past and when I wrote that article it got a lot of support from people I really didn't want to get support from a lot of people get haha look here's this guy Muslim guy and he's saying what we've been saying about all these backward Muslims I felt very uncomfortable does it bother you that some of the West's best-known Islamophobes are such ardent cheerleaders of yours it's interesting you know the very fact that I proudly and happily and joyously hang on to my faith Berks a lot of people who would otherwise want to support I've lost many fans by writing a book called a la liberté and love because many people thought after the first book that merely by critiquing religion merely by doing that I was going in the direction of atheism the exact opposite has happened I've deepened my faith with God and have therefore incurred the wrath of many people who would rather that I ditch Islam and I haven't and you have been criticized for sharing platforms and going to event with that you know members of the so-called counter jihad movement kind of American far-right is Sharia law obsessive but I've also shared platforms with people on the far left and people in between the point is honest conversation is important and needed everywhere and rather I would have a faithful Muslim speaking truth to that power to right-wing power when I'm facing them than to just leave that space empty and cede that territory to these folks altogether won't do that let's open it up to our audience here in the Oxford Union gentleman here in the front row thank you I admire your spirit and and love the passion with which you speak and I know you're a passionate advocate of freedom of expression and as I understand freedom of expression that involves tolerating bigots tolerating deeply offensive opponents of your own views now do you really see that as compatible with Islam because as an atheist standing outside of this debate it doesn't come across that way Islam and it doesn't come across that way precisely because behavior is not living up to the theory of Islam which is why Muslims are the problem or the trouble with Islam today do I see freedom of expression as compatible with Islam you're looking at somebody who lives both realities every single day and does not feel at war with herself for doing so so once again the beautiful paradox here is that belief in one God obliges believers to defend human Liberty lady here in the third row you've spoken a lot about clarity about being sincere you've been trying to contextualize your books and I have read your first book I haven't read your second and in actual fact I don't feel in sincerity I don't feel you've been clear I don't feel any humbleness or humility in anything that you've stated in your books particularly I feel some deceive nning in your attempt to clarify what you said because you interchange Islam and Muslim consistently you've tried to clarify that this evening you haven't really because I work with Muslims I work with Safra project we work with Muslim lesbian bisexual trans women I love the work you've been doing actually contradicts our work has actually detrimental ii affected our work how how so because you haven't clarified you've generalized you said oh let's add a context you add a context in this debate but in your books the books that millions of people read does not contextualize it generalizes and essential Isis when you say more people need to speak up we don't get the platform reason you get a platform is because what you say continues to support the virtualization of Muslims or Assad you want to come back simply to say that I'm sorry you feel that way I do find it interesting that when people accuse me of essentializing they to presume to be speaking on behalf of all of these Muslims who are very angry about my so-called essentializing but again there are plenty of other Muslims who would disagree with you and you know so I I don't hold it against you or hold it against them this is the discussion we need to be having I'm sorry as I say that you feel the way that you do and good luck in your work because we all have something clear in tribute one thing we didn't get to talk about time permitting is for example you hold views that most Muslims don't hold the vast majority for example you believe the Koran is an imperfect book a flawed book a contradictory book very hard for you to round up Muslims to speak out on that issue because they just don't agree with you sure sure there of course there are lots of Muslims who don't agree with me and maybe there are lots who do even on this point but you surely you would acknowledge there's a big contingent of Muslims who agree on the surely you would acknowledge that it is far less frightening to speak up in support of the perfect Quran than it is to speak up about contradictions within the Quran that wasn't my point my point no but you have it's the point that is the point with you on the Quran most don't therefore it's very hard for them to come and share a platform can you say that most don't when we don't have a world in which it is safe for people to speak up about their real view of the Quran Muslims included or Muslims especially how can you say that most don't do the gentleman there right there yes you who was the back who's been waiting that high yeah I was gonna say it's very hard to think of anything any injustice you could expose that couldn't potentially be exploited by people you with a bad agenda I'm taking an example like say you exploit talk about American atrocities in Iraq may bradley manning leaked you know film of americans shooting civilians in iraq now potentially some jihadist could use that as propaganda is that an argument you shouldn't expose that or should you expose all injustice you know you can get anti-semite start putting stuff about yeah the jews if i put something criticizing Islamism i get people who hate muslims okay agreeing with me right and that's and that's a very real fear that many muslims who have talked to me have that if i say something you know how is it going to be held against me who's going to use it but that becomes a self imposed censorship in that case if we want the world to see us as the diverse community that we are then we have to give ourselves the permission to be diverse and that means lifting the lid on our own censorship censorship but why not also this is to come back to the genitals question so for example z our then Sardar is someone you quote in one of your books he would call himself I meant I don't even call himself a reformer scholar be takes he attacks his slaw Muslims Islamic interposition well he is very critical I'm great admirers work but he's also written a book attacking u.s. foreign policy do you think you would have a little bit more credibility in the most computer if you did that to if you said okay I'm gonna take attack I'm gonna attack Muslim extremists but also gonna attacked the neoconservatives who want to start wars in the Middle East or whatever it is have you more said ability to probably and strategically but again I'm not but wait a minute what's the interest of policy although maybe sure and here's the reality there are so many people who are speaking truth to neoconservative power and rightly so the world doesn't need me to be doing that you know my question is what can I contribute to the wider discussion about justice so just like I'm not gonna write a book about the trouble within Christianity simply because there are plenty of people who are already doing that same thing in this case take another question for the audience is that lady here on the end of the front row yeah I'm interested in just following this up about to change on the ground and particularly in respect of the polemics and women's rights for example minority rights which are very sensitive and there are people at the grassroots trying to change debate trying to influence actual people's lives when the polemics and the kind of elite debates that perhaps we're all having can actually shut down debate how do you envisage bridging this and moving forward by encouraging honesty and that's really very key because even grassroots activists will tell you that there are that their censorship within that there are abuses of power within and because there are ideologies correct ideologies that must be supported in the name of any particular cause you wind up actually having very little honesty in some cases so my unique self-chosen but but you know personal goal is to help people of different backgrounds actually engage with one another in ways that answer the following question what can I learn about you that I didn't already know gentlemen here in the second row on the end with his hand up you you talked about having friends and while the sharing platforms with people and having honest relationships and I wonder to what extent you have honest open friendships with traditional Muslim scholars who are representing their traditions which go back you know generations and are voices of moderate because you seem to be undermining them as opposed to empowering the very people who are doing all the hard work on the ground on the ground right well I can only tell you that now more and more traditional scholars are willing to engage in the past they haven't been and not because they're bad people not at all but because they too have feared the stigma of in any way sharing a platform with Irshad Manji i think people are getting rather fed up with that I'm getting tired of courting the approval of you know some spokesperson so once again signals of hope signs of hope this lady here I think what sort of can become an issue here is that we have this idea that there's this monolith of Islamic expression and that everyone is backwards never on us have some very I care archaic ideas but when I think it's a shame if we are tiring the whole of the Western community in the West in the east with this one brush and I think sometimes you can play into that everyone with the same brush I'll be more careful going forward gentleman there I think it's I agree with you there's a fragmentation of religious authority in the world today but if Islam is what Muslims do and how Muslims live and the context in which they live why keep going back to the religion and to the Quran I mean do you think that if we edited out all the verses in the Quran which are violent or patriarchal that there wouldn't be militancy in the Middle East or that domestic violence food and I mean I think don't you think Islam isn't the problem and it isn't the solution that's what Islamists say Islam is in the end a distraction if you're talking about the politics of the Muslim world today I don't think it is a distraction and and you know going back to Mary's point about trying to win hearts and minds I mean I remain a Muslim for a very sincere reason because I love Allah and the story the reality though is that when you come from within the fold you know you can say to fellow Muslims that look the Quran itself we can draw inspiration from it people need to hear that there are these verses in the Quran and it is shocking and I would say very very sad that Mormo dresses are not teaching these aspirational verses to their children in order to have them really that as children of God not slaves of God as children of God they had the capacity to make a difference within their flesh and you say you stayed a Muslim you said I remain a misnomer sincerely yeah how would you define that how would you define but would that not just make how is that different to a theist who believes in God without believing in the Prophet maybe it's not and they're in again is you know one of the one of the things that we have to think about why do we need to be so different or so special from other people who believe in one so believing in the prophethood of Muhammad which is one of the convention please you don't think is a criteria for being a Muslim you don't have to believe in the Prophet I believe in the prophethood I believe that so I do believe in the Prophet Oh should that be a criteria for being a Muslim as it conventionally is I don't think so because because what has happened is that in in in making that one of the criterion we have inadvertently as Muslims many of us and I would argue most of us have put Prophet Mohammed on a pedestal when he himself reportedly said I'm just a human being who's been given this special mission from God but I am a fallible human being and so I believe that going back to the Quran rather than also supplementing it with hadith sand and you know the traditions of the Prophet the Quran itself contains the raw materials for the diversity of thought that we are capable of we know we don't need to go any further and one with the white cap that and is there any basis for just punishment and war in Islam bearing in mind the prophet and his companions performed both and is there any practice in Islam which is not open to choice the central tenets of Islam is belief in one universal God the central sin in Islam therefore in my view is a playing God with one another and beyond that this is your relationship with your Creator do not impose on other people do not intimidate other people understand that you will have the conversation you need to have on the day of judgment with your Creator and why does it need to be more complicated than that if you keep it that simple then I think that part of the contribution you one would be making is liberating spirituality from the cage of organized religion come on that's it Carlos is a nice line that I'm gonna steal thank you very much for coming here to address this audience thank you for you all in the Oxford Union for coming here today and thanks to you all for watching at home we will be back for another head-to-head next week [Applause]

Channel: Irshad Manji

Views: 2,019,870

Rating: 4.2628675 out of 5

Keywords: irshad, manji, irshad manji, Al Jazeera (TV Network), head to head, mehdi, moral courage, Islamic, islam, muslim, Muhammad, Koran, Prophet, Quran (Book), Liberal Movements Within Islam, 9/11, september 11th

Id: w5wclhYcWaA

Length: 47min 30sec (2850 seconds)

Published: Sun Sep 11 2016