Islam and British values - The Big Questions with Adam Deen

today on the big questions do we need a British Islam good morning Annika Campbell welcome to the big questions that they were live from Bradford Grammar School in West Yorkshire to debate one very big question do we need a British Islam welcome everyone to the big questions now Islam is the fastest growing religion in the United Kingdom the 2011 census finds two and three-quarter million Muslims in the UK and their numbers are growing ten times as fast as the general British population but there's as much divides as unites British Muslims their forebears came from very different parts of the world here in Bradford most Muslims originated from Pakistan in the East End of London Bangladeshis predominate but others emigrated here from the Caribbean or Arab countries or Africa or the Far East and then there's the converts 100,000 of them two-thirds of those are women now what unites them all is where they live now Britain and some British Muslims are now asking if the time has come to develop a distinctly British version of Islam so we have gathered together Muslim theologians academics social activists scholars campaigners and politicians to debate that idea and you can join in - on Twitter or online by logging on to BBC code at UK / the big questions follow the links to our discussion forums and is going to be lots of encouragement and contributions for an excellent lively local audience here in Bradford where we are live this morning do we need a British Islam good morning everybody Adam Dean you made a panorama about this Adam about a year ago what would the British Islam be what would it look like it would definitely be an Islam that hasn't been hijacked by extremists and and fundamentalist so unfortunately one of the greatest challenges that we have right now for Islam is that the dominant reading of Islam is one that is lost all of its beauty and losses ethical content so what is an extremist what is a conservative what is an Orthodox Muslim I mean least these terms are very difficult to define yes they are very difficult and what you will find within the Muslim community now is that there's a tension between sort of the rationalist Muslims and the anti rationalist Muslims and unfortunately the anti rationalist Muslims that are influenced by let's say sort of puritanical readings of Islam an example of that is will hardly ISM have the upper hand and there are many reasons why that is and one of the key challenges that the return akahl Aslam what does it mean puritanical what puritanical is a reading of Islam that is literal which is divorced from ethics so it's a particular idea that that you can only understand good and evil right and wrong from religious scripture and individuals that are I would deem to be puritanical have a very literalist understanding of say that hadith and what they want to do is they want to apologize of Muhammad the saint but I cannot really see the link this to extremism what we have to appreciate that Islam likewise Christianity our universal religion they are practiced by different races and different countries and there's no such thing as British Islam American Islam yes the context is different yes there are British Muslims American Muslims but then I find it really problematic to actually paint all Muslims with the same brush and say you know what there are like puritanical with a certain link to extremism because okay hang on a second I don't think it's - you know to me for combat your holiness as you said to me ecology one second please okay one second I take your point you made your point there look if it's it's I had to you know Tara Vaughn with the same brush I want to ask Adam another question minamino kasi british muslim for secular democracy is its conservative so-called orthodox most is that a problem that form of islam very much so and in my view there are three elements to a distinctly British Islam the first one is respect for a plurality of beliefs including those that were traditionally taboo such as identifying as a progressive Muslim the second element is working together towards the common good as Muslims and non-muslims in countries and this is an element that is respect for modern equality and human rights standards and sadly this is where some of the conservative interpretations of Islam a form of gasoline will be that's my side in a minute I just if you'll forgive me will never forgive me I just want to get our definitions right and I will come to I promise okay so equality such as what you know force gender segregation yes a prime example is the Universities UK guidance on gender segregation in public universities which are coalition of secular activists in groups including Muslims had to work very hard to overturn and it was later affirmed by the equality and Human Rights Commission that gender segregation in public universities is unlawful sexual equality gender equality a yes exactly LGBT I did what okay I'm coming I'm coming okay I promise Adam tell me one theological aspect which you believe is no longer applicable to the modern age yeah before I do that I just want to clarify that there's slightly caricature understanding of what I was saying I I don't think all Muslims are in this predicament I think that the dominating voices that seem to have the loudest voices are not within our community I'm minority but these individuals that are pushing this type of reading of Islam well here's an example you can ask the amount you can ask um yeah well there's an example a majority of these scholars majority of these individuals that dominate the intellectual Islamic discourse believe that it is legitimate to kill an apostate someone who has decided to leave the Islamic faith now that is the epitome the epitome irrationality to kill someone for changing their mind the marbles Ross here on what side erects into the EMA well I mean would you support such of Rallye it when you're talking about Islam and British Islam the first thing I'd be asking you Nicki is has this question ever been asked about any other faiths do you ever say what's the British version of Sikhism or British version of Judaism or British version that's the first first question I'm going to ask so it's question for me I'm coming to you and I'm coming to your answer when we come in down to the theological arguments I can come to that Islam is not just about the theological arguments that are between the jurist Islam is all about love Islam is about peace Islam is about but it's so that's just a lip service when how much love can you have for someone for killing them for changing their mind okay might might never guarantee do let me out there is a problem of extremism currently now please do you believe there is actual pretty swaggy so like yourself that is absolutely one this exacerbated by people extremism exhaust is isolated but yes I'll be back with you yeah a little bit of parenthesis here it's a couple of points then there need to be playing first we said we're living in a time where you know a lot of the Muslims they're devoid of an ethical name unless unless it's in class that rush offense let me Rosa finish so expect like devoid of the ethical element we're in West Yorkshire when we had seen in Yorkshire region where there were floods taking place was majority Muslims they're helping their fellow citizens so where's the devoid in the you know being boy they were driven by their face that's one important element and secondly when he talks about this a vocal minority the reality is this from someone like Adam who is part as an outreach director which is a laughable you know title in itself or Quilliam it's not very pleasant thing yeah and I don't think they're present or the thing is for them so they keep talking about how these people are taking over our country they're doing this their subversive subverting British values etc and really the reality is if you look at the academic literature if you look at the reality of young British Muslims now that makes sense and this question of British Islam you talk to most young British Muslims they'll tell you look I'm on about the weather IQ up i efficient ship friday how much more do you want me to integrate into this country higher than what you use it for Arsenal oh dear yeah okay listen I'm um yeah I don't know it doesn't look like you I know and I think tired I think you're awesome I think you'll agree you you you had a chance to make that point and you know what I'm going to be back to you later on because we've got a fair bit of time on this this morning good good that people will watching think that you rather signally did not answer Adams question so it to be fair the answer to our sequester going on yeah please I mean do you believe that there is a problem within sort of the religious discourse there is an element of extremism and do you think that we should condemn the the ruling on apostates that we should kill them do you know do you not think that's a problem absolutely put there let me put it this way Islam has Islam has a freedom of choice and you can choose whether you want to be in Islam or whether out of Islam and there is no compulsion of bringing somebody into Islam then it may you cannot into Islam but if someone is a Muslim who decides not to be a Muslim do you let me think they should rather I'll come to you in a minute do you come to and you not believe one second do you believe that person should be killed you you are pinning down one single argument of the jewel in the girl up the Maserati on the Bureau of the Horsham let me I personally think that person should not be killed okay but deal you're asking me about my would you let me speak I've stopped yeah begin to answer I'm gonna leave I'll see you all later oh damn I'm Karen I'm gonna give some women it's the second don't worry you know coming a man coming up I personally think that that person shouldn't be killed well that's my personal as you that's good which is great aslam is Islam is much wider than that why are people just if you was to look at that way every single faith every single democracy they always have one or two carry is that majority of people do not agree with and they are not looking at the larger picture I'm not no one has these new ones I'm extremely happy that you believe they shouldn't be killed but do you not believe do you know do you not know is a majority of us in the schools school of thoughts actually believe that apostates should be killed and that we need to I I'm going to went up a little but we're not gonna get any further with that we had a kind of answer so uh what we'd like to say and then I'm going to hear a sergeant to say that the majority of Muslims a mojit of school of thoughts they wouldn't say that you should be killed because in the Koran where's there's no compulsion in the religion that's the reality but the thing is like there's a lot of people like you who feed into this anti-muslim narrative that Muslims don't accept non-muslims they are not willing to engage with them and we feed back into the rise of this Islamophobia kind of narrative and who is the victim someone like me who is participating with the wider society engaging trying to implement the universal I can do whatever second realism not restricted by the voices okay only these are universal by the universal violations yes men and many other terms just a second but Adam you were saying you said I just wanna I'm sorry to come back to another man but you did say that this is the problem what do you mean this is the problem is that when we accept such doctrine some theological ideas that we should kill apostates and for your information there is a hadith which is considered to be say hey that says that that kill anyone that changes their religion and it's accepted by three schools of thoughts but potentially for so you really need to get your facts right and we have hate preachers Islamic scholars visiting university campuses that are actually saying yes it's okay to kill apostates as long as they meet the conditions that's like saying it's okay to rape someone as long as they meet the conditions it says yes ma'am is there a place in modern Britain for any kind of judgment on divorce or marriage or matters of relationships between two adult people for Sharia Courts absolutely not um this is why we shouldn't have a British Aslam they will not be consensus I think we've had multiculturalism we've now got multi-faith ism what's wrong with Sharia Courts Sharia Courts are we saying to minority women not just Muslim women but best but Jewish women when it comes to Beth Dean's and other ecclesiastical court marriage is a night of worship in Islam it's an act of worship it's also a contract but are we saying that they should not that Muslim women should not have equal access an equal opportunity to have access to the Lord in the same way that normal Muslim women do no one there was no regulation of Sharia Courts no I'm saying that first of all this a couple of things they're not course the arbitration councils in many cases so important to not caricature eyes the whole thing that's that's very important because of the ISIS you can't I think this is vitally asmin because what happens is it's we end up having a sound bite discussion and people need to understand I recommend people touch you go do some research so for example a the number of Sharia Courts is grossly exaggerated we often get the numbers from a Civitas you know research document that says that they would possibly about 80 to 85 but again mostly will based on online website so thing is a the numbers on that player they exaggerated secondly the arbitration councils that aren't legally binding the second thing but thirdly when we talk about Sharia Courts in this way what it does it feeds into a narrative that these people are taking over our country they do subverting our laws and that's just not true and really it's it's frustrating that it's people feed into this institution not like though that's a big part of it so they say women should not have all that and that they shouldn't have access to you know to uh to our courts flatten the ban on this important because it's a should have access to courts who say they shouldn't the reality is people will go for arbitration within their own community as they do in other places or should I the law of the land surely [ __ ] over all of it yes yes it does Frodo you've quoted Civitas oh I've been doing this work for 30 years and I have seen over that time that with Muslim women are being coerced and policed by their families and part of it is also the government's fault the legal aid cuts so limited less access to the English courts and actually seeking redress from let me finish that doesn't matter to me but what I have seen women who said I don't particularly want to go there but I'm being told that I have to go that they don't want to challenge the judgments because they will then be seen to be challenging the Word of God coercion of women is not a Muslim phenomena it's another slight Hill but wait everybody no wait everybody you asked me quickly then you heard what I said I also made reference to Beth Dean's which Jewish arbitration tribunals now there were Beth Dean's in operation that was then you Tony Blair's government used the arbitration act to extend it to the Muslim community why do we need a parallel legal system when we have the English Court who were there I've seen Clawson tribunals where women have been told to hand over their children to the father's at the age of seven which is contained within our religious texts I mean I've seen women doing confidentiality is not respecting my view just on the issue okay very sorry okay ask me - women are going to have to speak with with the perpetrator potentially I mean usually horrific abuse and they are in a room with the trenches where he no he's not acceptable like you mean any correction because there's I work with women from all background not just Muslim women I'm a Muslim women but I work with all other women what yes we just said it's more about cultural oppressions of man comes you know we work with dumb stupid women who are facing domestic violence it's across the board it's not just listening - and it's what cultural practices we have within our family I'm dealing with Hindu Christian Buddhist and you know the Christian families we have got those oppression so we are not just only working with women from Muslim community and in terms of Sharia Court and Sharia Council some of the women they feel comfortable going to Sharia Court and that's their choice and that's the choice they're making users choice is my to hear from women what if I'm really tired of that's cultural this is religious that's just got bad that's the really really just fact ancient least what Debra you're saying that it's not it's like hey man excuse me please let me finish are you saying that Islam came into context where there was no patriarchy where there was no misogyny and that's what you're selling doing chef Michael okay everyone what about other aspects I mean other are there any aspects of theology that need to be reinterpreted I wanna what about saying that I saw how you can maybe come to us on this and explain because this is something that's maybe misunderstood from people who are out with Islam a woman's word is worth half that of a man's how can you as you know an independent intelligent professional woman ever accept that okay so why we have to understand the Imam saying let me answer that one no let everybody go I've explained to you that's the thing that there are some certain principles in Islam that are applicable in certain contexts that the verse that you mentioned in the Quran it is mentioned in Quran but in a certain context when the woman does not that doesn't have a she does not have a dependent she has half of the inheritance if she is in charge of her house or she is the responsible for providing livings for her families then she's got an equal share of inheritance with men so it's not black and white it's not your word is worth after - do you have to see these cases individually you know is there - women witnesses for one man can you accept that Adam very quickly I think there's a confusion here you're kidding about a different verse the sister here is talking about another verse the verse says that when we're in terms of a contract or there's witnessing that that to every man there must be two women and so these kind of extremist Muslims puritanical Muslims believe they're therefore they extrapolate from that that the woman is less than a man and their witness is less than a man and and it's not it's not controversial but what they misunderstand is that there's a rationale to the verse it says so the other one may remind her so what that means is that women in those times were not involved in financial transactions so whether we're we part with the extremists that we would say modern society women are engaged in public life they are involved with financial transactions and they're competent and we would say that that wouldn't apply today whereas extremist Muslims I think what they were so they weren't yeah I would on the same side here I'm extremist for simplicity that's a show yeah that's what I just say but can I just say that the biggest driver of Islamophobia because raza keeps talking about me perpetuating Slama phobia yeah the biggest rival Islamophobia is denial that there is a problem to begin with that's good sorry can I just finish as for his job at me and making fun out of my position at Korean that's ironic given that you're your leader of your organization thought that he was persecuted by ma sad because they stole his shoe and that's ridiculous so please keep your comments to your so what may be may be the Raza that does and it may be is a serious point there because a lot of people you know Oscar Bukhari who's that was certainly leading like another organization no longer but he was may you know a lot of people lampooned him for this but maybe it does say something about the level of scrutiny and intimidation that he was absolutely convinced that his shoes were stolen by Mosshart yeah right yeah you think they were his shoes were still nobody because I he's been harassed many times so thing is it may be true meaning ability to my thing is what's that value with the question by the way my thing is it might play to a certain sense of a persecution complex if they've more said broke into his hearts and stole one of my shoes the thing is it yeah there's an article in The Guardian about how the Stasi had employed certain tactics of subversion for individuals in the past even small thing you can read this article in The Guardian about changing the tea bags in people's homes making them feel they're losing their minds I think is he might be nanostick or a nice book they may be on the harassment of a Muslim activist who speaks out against Israel's occupation of Palestine through critiques the government on draconian policies to be honest harassment of the Muslim of that is not that surprising at all you talk too much about the questions thank you and look what Adams doing right now that we're talking about an issue about British Islam talking about Sharia and stuff and he brings in this issue it's really like water is based on your organisation is a goat another boots on the other foot let me take it over here ashin yeah is there a problem with Orthodox Islam because those who believe that they follow the true path of Islam will find that and are finding that grossly offensive an attack on their credo an attack on their beliefs I mean this is exactly the heart of the problem I mean if you look at the entirety of Islamic history they're having more disagreements among Muslims about the truth than agreement and the current situation is not any different and again these terms that we are using on a conservative Islam extremism the or extremely contested when what do you mean exactly by in conservative Islamic I mean if you mean basically conservative Islam representing kind of exclusionary ideas if you think that conservative Islam kind of breathing supremacist ideas yes this is exactly the heart of the problem but the same term and the same common terminology is understood in so many different ways and actually this quest is to find the truth actually this has been going on for a very long time and that it goes back to the heart of the discussion and but if we need kind of British Islam or not because if you look at the ways in which Islam has been manifesting itself throughout history Islam has been able to go and feel itself with different culture protects our hiring in this country sorry Torre Rosa no sorry dr. Levine I appreciate your point about the contesting of terms as a very valid point there but I think what I find about this British Islam argument for me and for many of the young Muslims I've spoken to is is for me it's the colonial undertones which is that what there's a minority need to do more to fit in with the majority and integration is our one way straight it's a two-way street and reality when you look at David Cameron's unhelpful comments about women you tell in English to you know fight extremism but there's no causal connection to extremism when you know when he talks about having a fun for English 20 million but then flashes by 45 mil the year before all these different things when you have you know people saying that we're against Sharia and yet George Osborne introduced to the first ever Islamic bond system in this country and the coalition government for many Muslims it goes there's no consistency because there isn't a single Islamic community in this country discriminating Islam and and the heart of the problem is the are sitting individually have for certain days we don't have to be ok as the Kuwaiti minute everybody by tonight everybody be quiet just for a second please because just for a second please does Nina you've been John helping interpretations of religion particularly those that run counter to gender equality must be challenging what runs counter to gender equality because there are there are many interpretations of this and I'm sure that Sahar and others would say that this is an outrageous thing to say but they you know this is this is about self expression and it's a hard wearing the veil that is about equality that's about her making choices and that's about freedom of expression and her relating her religious and political beliefs like this you know so what are you talking about we've already talked about gender segregation but I'm talking about women's empowerment in religious faces more broadly if you go to a lot of mosques in the country they don't even have adequate space for women so a group of us a few years ago decided to fight it was really inclusive Serena that's just what she just made open which as far as I'm aware is the only mosque in the country which has openly LGBT people on the committee which creates an inclusive space even for X Muslims to come if they wanted to come to our vents and to to listen from our perspective I just we need an inclusive space that respects different viewpoints let's talk about women is unknown oh sure that we haven't recognized yet I promise you so how about it let's talk about women in Islam and anyone wants to make a point about wins position in Islam please do put your hand up lady there in a second or not I'm going to be right with you a quick point good morning to you morning and what I don't understand is you live in Britain right so your your loyalty as far as I'm concerned should be to Britain your should abide by the laws of the land so why are we even talking about Sharia councils they should not even be here you have Russians you have laws that are here that protect equality so I mean we've had the option to refer to a very article answer that from arise about gentlemen there with your hand up so everyone seems to know these conflicting points on the front right it's like what if I didn't know anything about Islam what type what Muslim do I talk to to find out it seems that depends what Muslim you talk to you get a different version of Islam is plural isms of this fact and that's why this that's why this term the Muslim community is so meaningless because there are so many different communities it's about human beings not sure I've done more hoping and pee for this necklace absolutely first of all welcome to my constituents of what I love it here it's good to have you so what about women in Islam is this Republic I'm going to make a few points and because I've been listening attentively to everybody what everybody's had to say and let me be really really clear in terms of women and Sharia Courts yes there is an issue where women have and I am aware of women that have gone Sharia Courts that have been encouraged to go back to violent partners that has happened but that let's not confuse that with religion well done I I sit here as a woman who is very anti Muslim men was very anti slammed because of my cultural upbringing because of the experiences of my mother and because of the experiences that I have a source Molly yes absolutely however 15 years ago when I met some good Muslim who actually taught me about what really slam was I then learnt about Islam and I don't have I really really struggle with the fact that you know the lady over here saying we've got a law let me be clear I fought against I campaign nationally against the inequalities in the British justice system when it comes to women Islamic phenomenon because the British reduced justice system is not equal to women and neither is any country we have got an equality at the last Marsha no no this is a bokken I just kind of just put this this point in it's it's all about direction of travel absolutely Junt so let's let's be clear in terms of Sharia Courts in terms of where they act as media trees where there are bad practices absolutely we need to rule that out we need to make sure women should not be encouraged to go back to violent partners women should not be persecuted children should be held with respect now coming back and before you tell me that I'm personalizing this Adam because I will not have that what I will civilize absurd that's the quillion foundation and I will name the organisation for me only yesterday I think it was I read that the quillion foundation have been knocked back by 45 institutes in Australia who refused to engage with them only yesterday I was between sorry can I just answer this I'm using right I've given either respect to listen to you and I expect that in return back to the quillion foundation without people let's be clear we have the quillion I was tweeted yesterday we've as a number of Home Affairs Select Committee I took evidence from Quilliam and I asked William and I put this out again once again the Quilliam foundation sit here and tell us that we are in denial we are in denial of what exactly to me the quillion foundation stripped of all credibility yes when it says we are in denial of things well actually in Bradford there is no denial there is an issue of radicalization there is an issue of safeguarding there are issues where people are the likes of - which into our homes through social media through the internet that is nobody's denying we are what we are different where we are - is our responses to that issue we will address some of those issues of radicalization and security in in a few moments vitally important I oppose me to give a damn response - yes well thanks for that it was very cute but what I would say is that you said it's got nothing to do with religion but when we say that religion has something to do with Sharia Courts and and partners going back to going back to their spouses because and they're still victim of domestic violence you say that we have to make a distinction with religion but the whole point of going to a career counsellor village in and one of the reasons they used to justify than returning back to their abusive partners is because they believe the Quran mandates meeting women so yes not all cases but there are some cases and that we must then I can once I happen that can finish now let me finish so there is a sense of denial here that there is a problem in the way that we read the Quran I don't believe that the court on mandates meeting women but a lot of Muslims of these scholars scholarship that's not my mom wait a minute wait a minute a month I mean is this window yeah I can have a show can I determine under Sharia Courts oh just just two touching them because I moved on a look I know you have look it was important it asked to intervene at that time when you're saying is there a different system altogether not at all we have the laws of this country Sharia Courts and not two parallel systems they are there to supply meant the courts that are already there that's the first thing the second thing which comes in those women who are actually going to the Sharia councils I don't know where this court system came originally they were named as Sharia councils they are going on their own accord nobody is actually asking them Jasmine says yes ma'am see and I you know lots of people on here function you made those points very well Yasmin right there's a couple of pies it was a key point you made there about doing of their own accord there are two responses absolutely now South all black sisters and others were involved in in your personal case and I was part of that so you but we've seen the English courts develop as society develops that the courts also develop my issue is that we are setting up a parallel system the other thing is its reduction exactly what shall I parallel system but can I go dementing this is it and that's why I mean mums up can I just say but in my experience when I don't Accord same thing that you can achieve from a city let me tell you from a fiction finish you can actually you can actually achieve from a normal English system from the magistrates as well can I'd it should the cooler that you're talking about other heroes that can be alright okay okay ready go right can I please make this point I have got vast experience of women who do not want to go to those systems but are pressured okay so that that's one I where men both Jewish men and Muslim men with hold religious divorces and that can hold up proceedings where there is pressure huge pressure on the women that I've worked with in terms of child custody and where that works my whole issue with this is why do we need a supplementary system can i whisk up no no wait a minute system we spend we spent some good time discussing sri a few months ago we came from Nikki we've got when we talk about minority women they have culture will talk about minority women I'm going to just Muslims are we nothing else do eyelash nonetheless Tokaido a here devout person and I will be with you rose and women specific in our Sharia yeah whoa oh and that's where we are at the moment I some I'm desperately trying to bring you back yeah that's weak trying to steer a conversation to that so I mean we heard from those that he was in a forced marriage and saying a lot of these things are cultural Naheed do you think that when we're talking about these issues FGM clearly cultural nothing to do with Islam forced marriage clearly cultural nothing to do with Islam gender segregation for clearly that's a you know some argue that is a theological issue wearing the veil some argue that is many argue vehemently that it's not but do you think there are many Muslims who believe it is a part of Islam when it's not and if that is the case there is a problem there isn't if yeah that's the problem we are facing every day because people don't have understanding about true Islam and if there are Muslims who believe that you can bet you're going on that's gonna be Muslims you can I guess a Muslim comes from all all part of the world they're just not just Indian Pakistani Bangladeshi or Arabian Muslims bring their culture with that are they confused yes not just a problem and doesn't represent that true Islam no the truth is nobody because Islam because I've been actually working with women from all culture I've seen they're facing these problems again and again this is across the board also actually a lot of the women they come to us they wanted to go through the Sharia law although lot of the scholars within Islam said if you take a divorce from the court within UK it's acceptable and that's what they said I've taken to them but these some of the women they this is a choice because they want to feel comfortable to go to sharia code we've taken them just because we didn't want them to I face that oppression because Islam doesn't believe in the operation or oppressing other people and that's the black cultural aspects that are included in your psyche as a problem it's not other bonusing policies that not pression and that's what I've seen okay Roger I think I've got a say nice giving there's new ones who are saying is there is some coercion but there's some choice to and you keep shaking your head you this choice involved I think that's wrong you have to admit this choice involved but regarding the point about women and subjugation of women or them being denied rights it's not a religious only phenomena as as not and now is pointed to it's something that exists in our society so look at unequal pay a woman in this country nobody this is in production of traffic I don't know but this is this you understand but this is vital though because I do feel the support of white privilege that is any case of what does that mean Leon let me explain I'll explain why it is right now yes it's if a Muslim commits a crime or it's subjugating women it's indicative of a wider problem within their culture their religion but you've had someone from a white Christian background so for example unity of Lancaster said after the World Cup they found there's a 38 percent increase in domestic violence cases after people watching football matches in the UK now they're not all Muslims that come in these domestic violence cases but you would not say this is indicative of a white Christian problem because you realize the criminal is separate from from you know from his attack from his ethnicity from his religion but when it comes to Muslim in response we partly to blame as Muslims and just hear me out here is that we were South Asian well you know in back in the 70s and then someone Rushdie came that the whole town was near as well of course but let's focus on the Satanic Verses and that's where Muslim identity really came to the fore and everything else was vist Abbott's to even and then you had community leaders who then coming forward and saying this is the identity box that we will fit this into by use that to get these game down say Bosnia because Bonnie night downtown but you did say let's just focus on Russia I said unplanted okay let me just let me do everyone's everyone sir another point is it kind every you can't shout you can't shout each other down you know I'm telling you but it's not I'm telling you you guys shot each other down so ha you wanted to come in here yeah what's that tell me about the issue that gets a lot of people really exercised you know gender segregation in public places some people see that happening and they get infuriated they see it as being if you let me allow me to say they see it would be absolutely contrary to Western liberal society we're sitting here for free mixing it's all fine so what why happy with it right I have no problem with what's the argument for gender segregation it because you know it's a live lively debate that it's it's not really big debate and to be honest it is not a topic that should be even discussed it's not a topic that should be decision let me then explain one thing Muslims are being singled out for every single practice that they think that even when we talk about women they also measure to have abused when we talk about existing back on that to women in England are being killed every week yet we don't ever mention that we don't associate it with anything or race or anything we're discussing domestic violence on a regular basis they are roasting segregation which is not true there are like women why Brian is black and nothing but was here I'm like you know some some some Muslim woman can I just finish some well she's liked about what she wants me to thought she was I want to I'm it I take your fight about some things that are under played and not reported on but it is an issue but I didn't Adam Dean well you did make your point but Adam Dean there is a political there are political meetings and people are separate and it sahar says it's not an issue that should be discussed because there are other issues well believe me we do discuss this other commercial for other people home women only events that woman chose to organize it that way and they wanted it to be that in public spaces you respect people who find offensive why I don't watch actually can I just say we've developed a women concerning leads 13 women's organization they're not Muslim organization came together and they want you to be together why is it done was it possible so it's not a demeanor to be that Jelena what's going on here with this trip because it's in it's an issue we should discuss it because a lot of people find it offensive a lot of people cannot understand why those find it offensive because is women Lee this is women as men only this but this is force gender segregation that's how people see it is it a problem it is a big problem and for me choice is a choice it is a choice when it takes place in the public university no it's not it's one small group of people enforcing their own brand upon others who don't agree with it and that's exactly why it has to be resisted or selected it would be like university segregating gives credence to narrow and conservative interpretations of Islam unchallenged what's your name for stone so harsh just saying I come back to yourself so how it's just saying that I don't know if you caught it she's saying what a redeeming force is the policeman outside of the policeman caroling are the security people saying you sit there and you sit there no but the conditions are created so that anybody who descends doesn't exactly opposes this particular interpretation of Islam is treated as a pariah and that has to stop the the sort of progressive interpretations need to be group given greater space nothing Monsieur difficulty which is not happening it's you know why this aha i it's not theological things yes it's a preface engine some woman's chose to little B for that is a excuse me excuse me excuse me everyone look see I've said fashion I'll be with you in a second so huh yes Frank what would you like to say okay well I wanted to say that for segregation it's not really a big issue within the Muslim community there are so many mixed events okay whistling women are happy let me put this to you it's one of those things let me put this to you please all this time I understand I put this to use some people shoot why are you doing the nice thing Muslims why are we demonized I want to ask you a question this is that is very I want to ask you a question can you understand you have respect for people who see it and see it as I'm not saying I do I'm not saying you see it as inimical to our society when they see the men and women in public space university whatever sitting apart do you actually respect their position and what I want to say that we need the mutual understanding I want to know why did she come to this view did she really attend this event has she interacted with these women you know I I wanted to know that how did you actually conclude her onto the cross because like a lot of women chose to wear with their own chose to sit with her their own group in a venue out of the car they don't want to be with the Westies Islamic society and that they don't want that or the communities learning arrestee I had to sit on a table Jennifer answer the question I had to sit in the gender segregated event at a university Islamic society where I couldn't even ask questions because it was deemed to be immoral I had to ask my question on a piece of paper and to take up to the entire circus - aha this Adam dude yeah I think it's important to say looking right and the problem does exist and it is a sort of obsession with sex there is a type of reading of Islam that's obsessed with sex and the potential the potential situation where you may you know suddenly have some sexual encounter with some woman and but but the put into contact this isn't a widespread problem there is a small minority of Muslims that hold you with you okay but but what I'm saying is like what is let me finish it something but if I used to say people talk talk you really don't like me but we can talk about can I just say item did audience in a minute audience in a minute but again please let's all listen to our group along with all other guys cup of tea that's be Adam yeah I think it's not it's not widespread and that we have to sort of put it into context but the point is that it's disingenuous to say that it has nothing to do religion there are individuals that believe that it's prohibited to free mix the yeah we have known for here good morning well it's interesting when but it's interesting when one of the biggest phenomenas you know attracting islam today his people at hijack islam and our people like - who attract our young people within this country yet young people don't get a say on platforms equally as many the people do and it's maybe because we believe they don't have a say I want to say a point which might make me get battle from both sides of the bed protector ah I think there's a lot of valid points I think you know we have to understand there are issues and I think we missed a core argument we talked about what is British Islam are we talking about like side of ours he said that our mosque should be built in a British fashion no minarets yeah normally reticent beautify the bazaar no I didn't actually I I welcome that I think that will take away the alienation of Muslims you know but it shouldn't be something force do we have problems with women not even admitted to mosque committees yes we do have young people problems with young people have been admitted we have problems in here nobody's denying it but to wish wash the oil I've been put in a certain perspective and I faces problem let's change the whole of Islam that is a very big assumption to make that we remember as liberals as somebody who's supposed democracy and the letter of toleration by John Locke the difference between religion and state so if in public spaces I don't support for segregation but if there's a choice within religious settings then the state is not to introduce different that's that we must leave a merchant John Locke it's lovely to have a bit of enlightenment chick in the program you know right let's let's see from the audience lady there good morning to you unlike other religions such as Christianity seems that Islam doesn't seem to have a hierarchical system like a pope that taught oh yeah that can dictate what is right and wrong and what is Haram and what is accepted therefore as somebody that's enormous limb how do I decide that somebody who is deemed moderate and using the Koran to justify their actions is a it's a Muslim somebody an extremist that uses the Quran also to justify their actions isn't that's what I think confuses a lot of non-muslims yeah I can judge them in their enemy in in the dog collar yeah Jonas it was more no no excuse me are you in front of it yes yes I got well I'm now am certainly consumed confused about what what is a true Muslim and otherwise we're talking about pretty what denomination are you I'm Pentecostal Christian I'd to coastal birds you welcome to welcome the Church of England bishops you're welcome that well yes I do oh well okay I wasn't expecting that one yes but I got a question it would be which is a true version of Christianity hi what yeah yeah but we're not discussing that that's a record sir yeah ad you finish I don't thank you huh how many it is serious and you know what is the true Muslim we're talking about British witches should be distinctively British which must be different to the Islam of Syria where people seem to think that they have a license to kill mmm they some Syrian Islam's you know yeah well serious or a thing yeah so they have like this need to be very clear what they think they have a license to kill they have a mandate to mock my murder the mandate yeah it's okay it's okay they have a mandate to murder infidels to be talking about people who've left Islam the murder but what about the infidels right and my question is where where do people arm like prices where they get the oxygen right listen Artie no war yeah we've got 10 minutes left yes no way are we going to get into the complexities of that so nobody believe no page because let me make your point let me move it on and thank you for doing so I mean watching establish that there are a lot of confusion between what is cultural and what is religious so this is this is this is the first thing that I wanted to can we talk now about radicalization yep but again I want to kind of tie this is something extremely important which was actually ignored in in the discussion it seems that maybe there is an interest perhaps for its your logical revolution which would Oliver the sudden make kind of Islam compatible with Britain but I think most of the problems that we have among the Muslim communication did not see logically our economic I think the economy is class is the social technical problem the very fact that 46 percent of Muslims live in some of the poorest and the privates councils in this country this is the heart of the problem the fact that over 24 percent of Muslims never work or have the chance to work despite the fact that the general national figure is only 4 percent this is the heart of the problem and and you really cannot primarily focus on the theological issues or only cultural issues when you kind of ignore divide the context when basically there is a huge sense of marginalization leave that marginalization that sense of isolation she's not ladies all about realism yes I understand is that leader I want to talk about that you got enough evidence to suggest that kind of economic deprivation basically marginalization that's not a very good technique it ignore can you can completely ignore it but that don't wait the Adam Dhiru of Muslims that are being born and bred in the West they are educated stats show that the no no of course names in this country you know live in some of the blood of counterculture love Adam responds of course there are factors there there are factors such as you know the power vacuum that has been created the tension between shear and suddenly you know the invasion of Iraq the pulling out of troops RV right these are factors of course but to the exception of ideology is just pretending when a nicest person member of Isis execute someone who deems to be an apostate and shouts our logic but why should we believe my religion I'm a being the same from the founder of British Muslim youth I want to talk about this what do you know anyone have you come across anyone odd you know anyone who knows anyone who has been do you think drawn towards you know radicalization extremism and if so why as weak a quick a quick point there's a long question but you know the long question I wonder in quick point of the last point you talk about theology and ideology but nobody's mentioned that we had over 300 scholars worldwide come to Marrakech and have a renovation in a sense about scholarly thought on minority rights in Marikina I mean nobody talks about that kind of stuff but on this specific issue I think you know the biggest problem we have is to look personally I still have until today met a single person it's not a big phenomena but we have a problem because any one young person that goes off to Syria if even if it's a 16 year old teller Osmel making huge political decision to go out there and make this you know drastic choice but the problem comes is why are we talking about empowering young people including young people you know they're tryna if Isis are there you know saying tutela I smell a 16 year old you can fly all the way to Syria and which are now 16 needles you're not even allowed to put a tick on a box on an election have you seen the type of empowerment the voice and influence that we need to give to our young people I include them into the did echo chamber of social media and the lack of critical thinking and just receiving one narrative not another I must say that it's dr. Shuren show you mentioned a very valid point of I actually we must look at the factors that lead to a person wanting to commit acts of political violence it's so you know you've got economic issues you've got social issues you've got political issues but I think this is where I take real real contentions with people like Adam Dean is that it's they want to focus on saying that it's a religious phenomena because actually if you look at academic studies I'll cite some Pastor David or just come on hang on now let me finish because it's important to me Alex I could be me they're back I hope you'll respond to this in a minute yeah don't you won't affect your funding from the government I promise the thing is dr. Rizwan submit we've run a finding by the other one years there's not a renewed finish event here's a time disembark Russ is gonna finish this point then I'm going to go to Adam to respond to it after that who knows things it's so you've got a doctor is once away from Liverpool John Moores University you've got Aaron punani from America you've got writers like Nathan Lee they say what what they say is this that it's to say it is a religious phenomena is actually empirically incorrect you can like your day is actually no salary study that points to that and the only people that push this sort of idea are those that sit with the government at the table in this country who say yeah you know what it's nothing do with your bombing people or supporting you know dictate oh please it's all to do signing a reliever you know it's more popular indeed this is a character asset of my position in the columns position we we understand there are many many factors but we can't deny that religion and ideology play an important part that's whilst I was listening to Rosa now see it made a comment that we're funded by right-wing recession and well then that you know that's guilt by association if you let me finish that's guilt by association that's not to us I'll make it about this kirlyam sector let's make it about guilt by association and also by the same token excuse me everyone I want to talk about radicalization and I want the response to what Naza regime said which was very interesting ok and I want to hear more interesting stuff from Adam yeah I want to speak to you I I said this before that to deny that ideology plays a part is just ridiculous what we are what we are if a legend even if you let how knowledge it is for the bit later actually I don't finish language what what I what you have to understand the phenomena of Isis it's not about just fighting against foreign fighters ridding of them or occupation of their land it's more than that it's that and a hell of a lot more it's about living this in this utopian Islamic state and the gravitas their gravitas comes from operating in an environment of Islamism and Wahhabism they are touching upon these ideas not in this is furthering the recruitment of Isis and as I'm the way I just finished you know co diem has been mentioned here in it I don't know why that's such a viability but but but but you know we should be talking which we should be talking about ideas a quillion foundation is about count counting radicalization and extremism by basing it upon human rights ok and I don't understand what what problem that you have with the quillion found you to discuss this later on that Yasmin you wanted to come in ok Sheikh in a minute Yasmin what did you want to say I'm really tired of this victim narrative yes of course there are six second up Decker vation amongst Muslims in this country but we are not we are not the only kin if you look at prison statistics it's disproportionally african-caribbean men stop and search the search is still disproportionally african-caribbean man I'm not by any by any means dismissing the experiences of Muslim people but we have a political representative here you've mentioned side of our see we have representation in the arts in academia in the political processes we are not this downtrodden community I don't really like racism I am Danny's no I am home but I am to that sort bottom outfits to narrative his feet I am watching I am surely father Byrne provide - listen listen excuse me this little triumvirate is not working for me yeah okay shake first I'm gonna start off by saying I don't know why so much air times being given to Adams that because all forgetting to say but then I think as I said I this is Adam more visitor exists is a Democratic forum than I'm useful because people keep bringing up my name this is what happens can I can I make this point my actual point and that's the action and - Nicki carnies a friend of mine as well and that shake yeah you were talking about radicalization and extremism that's where you stop them that's why I'd like to come in how did stop you well no that's where all right I'm sorry sorry sorry it's good shake do you agree with me it's good to hear lots of different voice absolutely we sure let's discuss with each other in a democratic civilized for absolutely we should um my only point was that rather than giving one person more time than others that was my problem radicalization it does happen extremism what is extremism that's the next question where does it happen I wish we all knew because the first thing that the government is trying to say is it's happening in the messages because we are coming from the religious aspect the government is trying to say is happening in the messages and in the mother cells and categorically it isn't because there is not a single case and mi5 s leaks report to the Guardian and the Royal United Services reports to the Guardian actually gives credence in the sense that it's not happening so far cell embeddings bedrooms is it exactly where is it happening and what's on top of the list well right on top of the list it's coming it's social deprivation its family breakdowns when it's Equus you've got you've got ten seconds I've got ten second then I'd say goodbye right well yeah so the point I'm trying to make this video make your point quick you know religion religious institutions has nothing to do it thank you all very much indeed thank you well whose bit quiet but hope you enjoyed it back on Twitter and online continues next on D and Southampton thank you very much indeed you

Channel: Quilliam International

Views: 633,055

Rating: 4.1652098 out of 5

Keywords: Adam Deen, Quilliam, Quilliam Foundation, British, Islam, Islamism, extremism, British Islam, Nicky Campbell

Id: bie0-VdBCtA

Length: 58min 59sec (3539 seconds)

Published: Sun Jan 31 2016

Reddit Comments

[u/whatsinyourhead]

The amount of delusion from that lady is the burka and her crew is too much. Lying through their teeth to try and justify islam

[u/TheOblivionLord]

What a mess, even the non-muslims in the video acknowledged how disorganized islam is. Also muslims calling for a reformation seem to be shut down as racists, bigots or islamaphobes by the rest of the muslim community, and no one seems to acknowledge any link between extremism and islam itself, insisting islam has absolutely no role to play in extremism...and the justification for sharia councils is worth a facepalm.

[u/oio_20]

i remember watching one like this.

the conclusion that the "moderate muslims" came to was that even though apostates should have their heads cut-off, this doesn't apply in britain as it's not majority moslem... yet. After it's majority, then sharia should be law islamically..

WTF

[u/[deleted]]

It's just insane to me how dishonest so many Muslims are. This is exactly where bigots get their material when they start saying Muslims are employing taqqiya.

[u/LightningSh0ck]

"they don't understand true islam."

and that's why everything you say is meaningless.

[u/MrDeerp]

Oh this is new?

[u/scubadivingpoop]

Eh whats new watching Muslims defend islam is so painful and hurts my brain.