- I believe that the person that you cheated on needs to know. So if you're gonna say like, "I'm not gonna tell them because of psychological
damage," it's honestly, you're not even taking
accountability for what you did. - Yeah.
- Hold on. - You chose to cheat. - Disclosing that you cheated to the person that you cheated on is not accountability. That is just revealing information- - That is taking accountability. I would consider that as a
form of taking accountability. You're so open-
- That's delivering news- - Open about this-
- Maybe it's the first towards accountability. - Thank you.
- I agree. - It's the first step.
- It's the first step. - Hi, I'm Gen, and I explore social
and controversial issues through both sides. And today I'll be moderating
this "Middle Ground" episode of cheaters versus cheated on. We'll be exploring topics such as the personal
experiences of people cheating, the emotional toll that
it takes on relationships, and why exactly do people cheat. The first prompt is: I would forgive my partner
if they cheated on me. Agreers, please step forward. (footsteps clicking) - I feel like from the
side of being cheated on, I think the biggest thing to understand is that forgiveness is something that everybody does deserve. I think that once we
get into the discussion of why somebody cheated, we can really understand whether or not that person is sympathetic and whether or not that person is somebody that you wanna
keep around in your life. But I think forgiveness and keeping them in that same relationship
are not synonymous, they go separately. - I completely agree. However, I do think that forgiveness is something that we give to ourselves, not necessarily somebody else. So in the event that my
husband cheats on me, I would be giving him forgiveness so that I could set myself free from any hostility or anger that I may hold onto in the event. - I think it should benefit
both sides in that sense. Now, whether that other person takes it and uses it to their benefit, you can't control that and it shouldn't be up to
you to try and push that. But, yes, also making
sure that that forgiveness is for yourself as well
so you can move forward, whether it be with that person or alone, and not take that burden
onto the next relationship if that relationship doesn't work out. - I completely agree. And I forgive because
I've been forgiven, so... And I'm a Christian, so
I believe in forgiveness. I believe that we should forgive people because we have been forgiven. - You know, you can have
short-term forgiveness and long-term forgiveness. And you know, it's like: Are you addressing the root of the issue? And really if you're truly forgiving... And forgiveness is something
that comes with maturity and with life experience. It's the whole circle of forgiveness, you get so much and you
release the other person and yourself from anything and then you can move
forward from that point. - One thing that is interesting, though, there is that there are three people from the cheaters side who have sat down, but only one on the cheated on. - That is interesting. - I guess I'd be curious to hear more so about your guys' experiences, 'cause it seems like, in this instance, you were cheated on. - Yes. - So I cheated on him and he forgave me, but I guess I'll let you explain that. - Forgiveness is a, it is a step-by-step process. It's not anything that
does happen instant. And for us, that was something
that we did step by step. And as you said, getting
down to the root of it was a big thing, to where all questions have been answered, all things that were
left up to an idle mind are no longer there. And so by getting down to the root of it, I can also figure out, "Okay, were there some areas that as a husband I did not uphold what I needed to be?" It might've been that you might have felt emotionally you couldn't
feel like you can come to me. - So do you feel like you have equal blame in the cheating that occurred? - Can I interrupt? I think that bringing the conversation to the concept of blame, I think you actually kind
of have to understand the purpose of blame. And I think that the purpose of blame is to shift responsibility. When I have conversations around cheating, I really like to steer
clear of the blame game because the truth is,
like, we all play a part, society included. - Can we have the disagreers
please step forward? Just to go back to kind of the
imbalance that we saw there, I'd be curious to hear from
the cheated on group first. - There was a few things I
heard that I found interesting. One, you said about not
using the blame game, and then also when you said about you felt like you may have had
something to do with, you know, not being a husband or whatever it may be. And those are things I kinda
disagree with, in that... Like, I know most of us walk with good intentions in life, right? We all are trying to
be a good person, yes? - Mm-hmm.
- Or maybe not. But the most part, you
start off that way, right? But I guess the way I live my life, I don't give anybody any excuse to do something wrong to me. So if you do something wrong to me, you had to kinda go out
of your way to do that. And this idea that you start saying, "Well, it must have been something I did," it actually might not have been, it might have been just the other person wasn't where you were at as a human being. And also the other thing I
heard was about, you know, forgiving for yourself. I've never understood that statement. That is something wrong,
I'm just gonna move on. You know, I'm not gonna
hold any ill will to you, it just happened. - [Sophie] Can I respond to that? - Go ahead.
- So I actually agree with the two things you
said about the forgiveness. I have never understood that either. I just feel like, for me, if it works for other
people, that's great, I actually have found healing
in not forgiving people, a and that's... I think there's a difference. I think I choose not to forgive them and then eventually I am
indifferent towards them, is what I'm saying. I think there's a difference between not forgiving
someone and hating someone. - And I think most of that comes from, that narrative comes from
usually the person who cheated saying, you know, "Forgive
for yourself," but, like, you never hear it coming from the actual person who got cheated on. And again, to that point, it seems it's always connected to: "If you don't forgive, you are holding onto to some ill will." No, I just don't think about it. It's done and I'll just move on with life. - At least for me, I think that comes back around to honesty. I mean, any of us that were cheated on, I don't think it's any
of our responsibility that our partner chose to be dishonest with us about anything, because even if you assume that, you know, it was something you did, maybe you weren't being open enough or maybe the conversation wasn't happening that needed to happen, it's still not your responsibility fully, I don't think. You can't force anyone to be faithful or to be honest or to be true. - And that's the interesting
part, that, you know, somebody who gets cheated on thinks, "Well, what did I do?" Like, they should never think that. - With the early part of our marriage, what I thought a husband was: I go out, I make the check, and I come home and have sex. I'm just being completely honest. I didn't see nothing else emotional that I needed to bring to the table. So that does not make an excuse for somebody to go out and do something. Yes, we should go ahead
and have communication, we should try to learn
how to grow within this. But I feel like that was the importance of trying to figure out: Where did I have any type
of flaw as a husband? Because even if we would've decided we're not going to work it out, I don't wanna go and keep recreating the same type of marriage. - I just wanna say I think
it's really interesting that you're the only
person from the cheated on and I was the only person
from the cheated side. And speaking from my personal experience, 'cause my partner also
used to be a cheater and we came together. And, you know, maybe part
of it is just us growing up, you know, or we committed to each other, but we consciously made
the decision to grow, grow together, grow separately. And so I think if he were to cheat on me, I would not be able to forgive that because it's like, well, you promised, we promised each other this growth and we've put all, it would be less about
the cheating itself, I think for me, and more about the breaking the promise of the growth that we've made. And it's like, "Well, how am
I supposed to trust you now?" - For my specific experience, it was more of a physical thing. I was a virgin and I wasn't
ready to do that yet. And the guy I was with was a
couple years older than me, and he went out and did that. And I could never forgive him because the physical thing was something that we could never fix. I wasn't gonna have
sex with him, you know? So forgiveness for me was very hard because there was nothing
to work on for me. So there was nothing to
improve that relationship, so it was over. - I'm just curious. If he had... I have no idea what your
relationship was like. - No, go for it. Go for it. If he had come to you and said, "I love you, I care about you. This is something that I really need," how would you feel about like, you know, allowing him to go out and do that? Or would you like, "We
should just break up then"? - Totally. I mean, I think that I
was getting to the point of potentially being ready, but after he did that with someone else, then I was like, "Okay, no." And I literally did not speak to a man for like three, four years. Like, it was very emotionally
traumatizing for me. I was only 16. (dramatic music) (host sighs) - Love is so rewarding when it's good, but it's so painful when it's bad, even when you know you've been wronged. As time passes, it's hard to heal, especially if you don't
have a solid support system. Luckily BetterHelp, the
sponsor of this video, is there for you when you
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for supporting this channel. Now let's get back to the episode. - Emotional cheating is
worse than physical cheating. - Okay. It's just me. Worse. I've been cheated on
twice in the past year. The first was physical,
the second was emotional. And to me, well, I don't wanna bring it back to Jillian while she's standing over there, but we were talking about, like, the concept of virginity, and she was only 16. Like, the physical cheating aspect, I was cheated on because
I wasn't, I suppose, being sexual enough
despite the communication that we had going on. I was just kind of being
lied to the whole time. But emotionally, for me, that's what relationships are built on. So lying about something like that or like having someone else on the side that you're giving those parts of you to when I truly just wanna like know the inner depths of, like, your being 'cause we
are in a relationship, it's just worse to me. - You hesitated to come up. Tell us why.
- I hesitated to come up because I think the word worse is like, it implies that there is
a level of significance to whether you act on it or not. And I think ultimately cheating comes down to managing your own thought life. And as far as what you said about you not meeting his physical needs, I'd like to, - It was her, but- - Yeah. Oh her, sorry. - [Em] You're good. Same deal. - I'd love to shirk that off of you because what somebody else does in life is a reflection of them, not a reflection of you. So, like, as far as the, "Oh, I didn't meet physical
needs of my partner," I think you can't really say that, because if they weren't
vocal about it, right? - Absolutely. Which is like, that was the main reason and one of the only
reasons that we broke up, and I called it off. And I was still never apologized to. It was never acknowledged
that it even happened. Because that betrayal was so tangent, it was a lot easier for, like, for me to let go of it. But having, like, a deep emotional connection
with someone, I, like, tried again with an ex and then I ended up getting
emotionally cheated on. I had much more of a deeper investment in the character of that person. And I cared very deeply about
where we were going in life and how we were growing together. And to sort of have that
growth cut off, you know, is something different entirely. I do like what you said, though, about using the word
worse and, like, how that- - How there's like a level
of significance to betrayal, whether it's actually executed
with your body or not. - [Em] Yeah. - I think that- - It's still a betrayal. - [Chelsea] Yeah, it's
still a betrayal, right? - So I have a long history
of cheating, unfortunately. And I have both physically
cheated and emotionally cheated. The way my various partners
responded was different. I don't think that it's fair to say one is worse than the other. - Yeah, I kinda agree. 'Cause at first I was standing back there, I'm like, "Physical has to be worse," but now I'm like, "Everybody has a different standard or a different experience." I can't say what's
worse for somebody else, but maybe for me. The other thing is I don't understand, I'm not sure even know what
emotional cheating actually is. - Thank you. That's what- - I'm sitting there like-
- Could somebody please define - I'm like,
- that for me- "What is emotional cheating?
- 'cause I don't understand what that means at all. - So emotional cheating, like when, let's say you're going to someone and talking to them about the problems in your relationship and they're offering that advice, they're offering you comfort. - They're giving you
everything that you want- - Yeah, that you're desiring at that point when you're actually supposed
to be going to your spouse or to the person that you're with. - I agree with you, but I would take that a step further and say you can emotionally
cheat and, like, they not know about your
spouse or your partner. Like, it's about having a relation. Like, you're talking to them the way you talk to your partner, you... 'Cause I have my high school sweetheart. I was in love with someone else. I was in love with two
people at the same time; it was very complicated. But before anything ever
physically happened, I was emotionally cheating
on my boyfriend at the time because I was talking to this guy like he was my boyfriend too even though we weren't together, you know? And I know people who have divorced, who have left their marriages because it was like, "Well, I've fallen in
love with someone else even though we've never
done anything physical." Whereas by that same token, you can also have like a one-night stand and it be purely physical and not emotional cheating at all. - It's funny 'cause like, it seems like you're describing when you're trying to get
to know about somebody 'cause you wanna date them. So that's why it's kinda like really- - [Chelsea] Let help you - [Leona] Yeah, it's kind
of like confusing me. - Emotional cheating begins when you have a relationship with somebody that your partner is not aware of. - Okay. - A romantic relationship. - Yeah.
- Yeah. - So for me, you know, I think lots of things, I look at lots of people, I expect that whoever I'm with is just thinking whatever they're thinking while they're looking at people. And in relationships that we all have with each other, you know, for me, like, my girlfriends or... And I've been cheated on and cheated, and it's all complex and complicated and based on a case-by-case basis. Until they take action, some kind of action where
they're physically engaging with another person, they're not cheating on
me as far as I'm concerned because they're living
life as a human being and they're just feeling and thinking and fantasizing and doing all
the things that we all do, 'cause we're human beings
and that's what we do. - And that's how you feel. - Yeah. That's how I feel about it. That's what I said about
three or four times. - As someone who has
cheated, did you feel, if you've ever felt any, some sort of type of way, whether it be guilt or anything, did you feel worse about
emotionally cheating or physically cheating? - I've never emotionally cheated. I'm a human being and I live my life. And if I think something or I have a relationship with her where I'm telling her
about my relationship and I'm falling in love with her, that's okay, I can feel that. But until I do something about it, I haven't cheated, I haven't done anything to my partner. - I've been cheated on
multiple times, you know, so which is just like, and it's always been like a physical thing and it's really hurt me. And that's why I think
the physical is worse, for me personally, than maybe the emotional would be. But I can totally see both
sides, because emotional is... Sorry, yeah. Emotional is difficult too, but for me, the thing that sets my, like, romantic relationship apart
from a best friendship is the intimate, physical stuff for me. I can have tight
relationships with other guys, but I'm not gonna go sleep with them because I'm not romantically involved. - Oh, I'm still very close
with my high school sweetheart. - Totally.
- We're very good friends. - Yes, and I have exes
too that I can be like, "We're chill, you know, but I'm not gonna go hook
up with you in the car." Like, you know what I mean?
- Right. And we have that trust. Like you said, I think,
at the end of the day, it's situational. For some people, emotional
cheating might be worse. For some people, physical
cheating might be worse. For some people, it's the same. - [Leon] That's interesting- - Let's move on to the next prompt. - [Jillian] Okay. - I would date someone who
cheated on others in the past. - [Chris] That was so
fast, I didn't hear it. - I agree wholeheartedly. A person's past is indicative of who they were at that point in time, not necessarily who they want to become or who they are in the present moment. And I think what's most important is who we are in the present moment. - I agree, too, because I
believe people can change. I changed, so I do, I believe that. Now, can you make someone change? Like, you know, obviously not. But I agree with that. - Yeah. No, I agree wholeheartedly. I feel like if somebody
did something, you know, say for example, in their 20s and they're
in their mid 30s now, I can't hold them to that past. There's things that I've done. And so I feel like it would
be wrong for a person to say, "Hey, you can't change. You can't come outta that." And so who am I to say, "I'm not gonna date you because you did something
to somebody else"? And I think those are things that you would only figure out, like the surface level
stuff early on anyway, before you get down to the deeper details. - I am currently dating
somebody who used to cheat, maybe even worse than I did. And, I mean, to your point
about cheating in your 20s, I think the last time I cheated on anybody was maybe like five to seven years ago. And, you know, like I was saying before, my partner and I, we made a commitment to each other to help each other be the
best versions of ourselves that we can be. And I'm very secure in my relationship. I have my moments, but that has more to do with, like, me than it does him. When he goes out, I'm like,
"Oh, see you later," like, it doesn't, there's no doubt in my
mind that he is faithful. - Since I began my marriage as an affair, the man that I have been
with for the last 10 years is the man that I cheated with. I proceeded to have three of his babies and we now have a fabulous life. But in the beginning, the amount of paranoia and anxiety that came from the fact
that you cannot control anybody else's behavior
but your own was insane. And so I think coming to terms with accepting the realization that what is inside of my control and what is outside of my
control was liberating. - I'm interested to hear the
disagreers because, again, I think we have three
people on the cheaters side and then one on the cheated on. So disagreers, please step forward. - I don't disagree, I just, I didn't hear the prompt, so... - [Jillian] I actually,
yeah, I think I honestly- - I mean, everything everybody said sounds great on a Christmas card, I guess, if I'm being honest.
(group laughing) Because at the end of the day, I think... And I don't say that
disrespectfully, I mean, at the end of the day, we all still are human beings, right, and we go off experience, okay? For instance, in my
situation, I was married, but at the time I didn't know how many times prior to that
that she had cheated, right? So again, when you meet somebody, you don't straight away know off the bat, "Oh, they've been cheating." As you go along and as you go through this situation, you start to go back to this conversations
and stories you've heard and it's like, "Oh, that was the behavior
that was always there, you just didn't know it," right? Would you take a banker who's
stolen money in the past? You kinda gonna be like, "Eh, I don't think I'm gonna do that." Like, so I think it's situational on how you meet the
person and how you grow. Like, even when you
said you had your affair and now you're married
10 years with three kids, it grew into something. But you started off with paranoia, but it grew into something real, right? So I think it's, again, very situational. - I mean, it was even
real in the affair, okay? So, like, I kinda wanna get ahead of the narrative that, like, people fall in love when they
cheat because it's a fantasy. And I think if it were a fantasy, it wouldn't hurt so bad, right? So I really like to keep
it in the reality sector just because I think it
invalidates the experience. And what you just shared actually hits on the fact
that your wife, ex-wife? - Mm-hmm.
- Your ex-wife had serial cheating. And I am of the belief
that serial cheating exists if you don't understand why you do it. So if we do not actually do the deep dive in understanding why we
behave the way that we behave, we'll never be able to correct. So from the beginning, she
was deceitful with you, right? Like, I think that if I get
the opportunity in the future to go into another relationship, which it's already disclosed
on the internet, so whatever, but I'm going to be
upfront, you know, like, "I have a history of
deceiving people I love and I'm capable of it." - I'm curious. Do any of you guys have kids? - We do.
- Yes, we do. - And I think that brings up
a whole nother dynamic for me when I went through mine 'cause I had kids involved, and that was kind of like... And, you know, it's like... Not saying that's worse or better, 'cause cheating is cheating regardless. But again, being real
and being a human being, you're gonna react a different way because you've got kids involved. - So I'm gonna expose-
- Do you think you're gonna be a lot more, you know,
when you go and date again, would you be a lot more
stringent on your requirements now that you do have your own kids? - I think that's just a natural thing. Not saying that's justifiable, but, like, you're gonna have standards. You've been through one thing, there's certain things that
you're gonna not tolerate. The whole dating thing
is kinda put on hold 'cause my focus is on kids, especially in a society
that downs plays fathers in their kids" lives. And because I came up
with two-parent household, I'm very, like, "I'm gonna be there for
my kids no matter what." Like, even right now, if they called right now, I'd be outta here. - I wanna hear more from the disagreers. Is that like a requirement now that if they were a cheater in the past, you won't even consider dating them or is it case by case? - Well, it's interesting. For me, I think it is case by case. The main reason for me disagreeing with this prompt is because, it's about the serial cheating thing. Like, the person who
physically cheated on me was a serial cheater before me and has continued to be, like, since our breakup. And I would never, ever, I'd never touch that with
a 10-foot pole again. - I was a serial cheater. - How'd you change? - Well, here's the thing.
(group laughing) - [Leon] I was about to say. - Yeah, I'll get to that. I'm the only child of a single mom. So there was no father at home, there was no example of what
a healthy relationship is in terms of a man and a woman, so... And I grew up with a lot of female energy. So I had aunts and grandmothers and stuff who were all raising me, so I had a very emotional
aspect to my being. And so because of that, I
craved female attention. And so whenever females
would gimme attention, it was just like, oh, if they wanted to do whatever, I was on board, I'm like,
"Let's go, you know, it's life, and this is great." And then after about, you know, after U started to mature and grow up a little bit, I'm like, "This doesn't feel good. This doesn't feel like the
right thing to do," you know? I can't even explain it. It just kind of descended
into my being and I was like, "This is not you. You're not this person." And that's where I found
one sense of my character and integrity about myself. - I am also a serial cheater and my partner was a
serial cheater as well. And we were very honest with
each other in the beginning as soon as it was serious, you know, "Hey, I have this history." "Oh, me too." And he was able to communicate to me, "This is why I made
these horrible choices." So I am confident that he
wouldn't make those choices again. - For those who have been serial cheaters who've now found themselves or gone through and understand, I guess, what would you say to the people who have been serial cheated on? 'Cause it's interesting, like, you guys have gone through something and you've figured stuff out. And you always hear
those people who is like, "Why I'm always finding
that guy," or that girl, "and they're always cheating on me?' Like, how... Like, what do you say to them? - And I'm speaking from
experience, not with cheating, but with other things, that sometimes when someone
has trauma from a relationship, that you enter your next
relationship thinking, "Oh, this person's gonna save me. This is gonna be the person
who fixes my trauma." And it becomes this cycle of trauma, where that person then is like, "Oh, this person thinks
of me as their savior," and they'll take advantage of that. And that is not, like, I'm not victim blaming. That is not to say that,
like, ""And it's your fault." - No, but that's a relationship thing. What you're talking about
is, like, in relationships, when you find yourself finding
the same kind of people, you have to stop finding people and go, "Wat is it about me? What do I have to figure out about me and what's going?" And how I feel about other people and what my boundaries are
and all kinds of things. - It's the types of energy that you might be unconsciously, like, looking for.
- Like, attracting. - Not even necessarily
attracting, but, like, sometimes when a person is
traumatized in a certain way, unconsciously you will chase that trauma over-
- Looking for it. - and over again.
- Exactly. Yeah. - But I think what you said
about boundaries, I mean, that is the key. And I think a lot of people
don't understand that, like, boundaries is not saying
like, "You can't do this." 'Cause you can't control other people, like what you were saying. A boundary is like, "If you do this, I'm not gonna talk to you anymore." It's the consequence of the
person crossing that boundary. - There are much worse things that can break a
relationship than cheating. - [Announcer] Join our
Middle Ground Patreon to watch this exclusive prompt. (dramatic music) - It's okay to express
attraction to others while in a relationship. (footsteps clicking) - As the only person from
the cheated on section, I think that it is okay because personally for me, again, like, talking about how I
think that relationships are built on honesty and communication, I would rather know that you
have attraction to someone than you just keep that on the back burner and not tell me. Like, let me know. Like, let me know. Attraction is human, love is only human, desire is human. I have not cheated on anyone. I have absolutely no plans
to cheat on anyone, but like, if I found someone attractive, I would tell my partner. My current girlfriend is amazing, and I would hope that she would feel open in telling me that as well. And I like to open a lot
of my conversation, I mean, a lot of my relationships
with that conversation and just like, be like, "Hey, can you just, like, let me know if anything goes that way?" - Well, I love what you just said because it really speaks volumes to your individual security in revealing your authentic self inside of your relationship, so well done you. - Thank you.
- I also think that if we have an innate response to something that we see and we actually don't give a voice to it, we're ultimately putting
ourselves in a place of denial. And the denial is not
just a river in Egypt. And what it ends up doing is you start suppressing yourself and making yourself smaller for the comfort of
having your relationship, which then means your
relationship becomes the goal, rather than you being an individual who can be seen, valued, and understood inside of the relationship. - You know, me and my partner have shared these things, but, like, I also have struggled
with my own insecurities. And so he always makes
sure to add in like, "But, like, you," you know? So I think it depends on who it is. But I think I agree that, yes, it is obviously healthier to give voice because then, of course,
like, if I don't know, let's say my partner
finds someone attractive and I catch him looking and then I'm like, "Why are you..." You know what I mean? And so then I might get
suspicious, as like, "Why have you not said anything to me?" - But wouldn't you say
that your insecurities are for you to manage, not your partner? - Oh, yeah. No, yeah. No, I mean, that's my issue. - So him or her changing their behavior because of your insecurities would lead them to a
place of inauthenticity. - Oh, I wanna make it very clear. I didn't ask him to do that. That just comes from him, he just... And maybe it comes from him because he knows I've
struggled with insecurities, but I haven't said to him, "And you need to do this," that's not... It's just him expressing himself. - You know, for me it's like
when I start a relationship, I want communication, you know? And it's very important that we're able to talk with
each other about everything because we're two human
beings who have feelings. And unless you act on
those feelings, you know, and sometimes I think talking about it can keep you from acting on it as well. You know, all that openness can keep things, you know, just... I think it can help. - Well, the partner that
physically cheated on me, I don't know if she's fully polyamorous, but that's sort of
where she tends to lean. And I knew that going in, but she was not being
real with me about it. So, like, I would rather you come tell me when you find someone attractive and we discuss the possibility of even trying that than you should just go behind
my back and not do that. 'Cause I don't think
that I'm poly, but like, I would rather have honesty and communication openness- - And that is cheating. I think if somebody is polyamorous and they're not honest- - And they're not honest about it. - [Sophie] That is absolutely- - So we started off with that. - Because I am queer, I, you know, I often will find, like, women and non-binary people attractive. And my partner is a male and he's very okay with that, and not in like a gross,
creepy way, but like, he understands that, like, I'm also going to be attracted to, like, these other genders. And so us discussing, you know, who we find attractive is a very natural part
of the relationship. - Yeah, it's like discussing,
you know, day-to-day life, I think.
- And I reassure him too. - I love it.
- I'm always like, "You're the best." - I personally don't believe that there should be any
attraction to anyone while, especially for marriage,
speaking on marriage. We believe in monogamy, we
believe in one, you know, man and wife. And I do believe that we should not have any type of attraction to anyone. It leads to problems and it absolutely can lead
to, you know, even cheating. Yeah, if you are feeling that
way in your relationship, then obviously that does
need to be expressed, but... And that tells a lot about, you know, hey, there's something deeper going on in your relationship
that needs to be fixed. So you're saying, like, you walk down the street or you walk down the street, you've never seen a, you know, an attractive man and been like, "Oh, like, that man's hot," never? - I don't look at other
men and think that. You know, I can't do that to... Especially being a
Christian, I can't, I don't, I can't look at other men and say like, "Oh, that man is," you know... I can't be sexually, I'm not sexually attracted.
- I it because you're a Christian or is it because you're you? - No, it's because I am a believer and I do believe in the cross. I believe in Jesus Christ.
- Me too. - And I believe that He is my Savior, He's my Lord and Savior.
- Same. - And I believe in the Bible. I believe in the whole Bible, not just a little bit of the Bible, but the whole entire Bible.
- Okay. - It's funny 'cause part
of me is like, "No," but part of me is like, "Yes, 'cause we are human beings and attraction is part of life," so I will say that. It's funny that worked against me, meaning most was when you
go out and date somebody, I'm assuming you find them
very attractive, right? So in my head, I'm gonna expect people to look at my wife or girlfriend as they're
walking down the street. And, you know, even
though sometimes it's not, it's rude to make certain comments, I've been in that. But I was the kind of
person where I was like, I didn't care because as far as I know, she's with me and she's
going to get looks, but because I didn't react, that was a problem because
I didn't get jealous. And I'm like, "Why am I jealous? I'm with you." This is where I got confused. Are people just coming up
in your relationship saying, "Hey, he's attractive,
she's attractive, she's..." Like, how does that work personally?
- I mean, my boyfriend is the same way. He is like, "Yeah," like, you know... He wants me to, like, go out and people look at me, and he's... And I think that's... Of course, you know, sometimes I, you know, I want him to be a little,
you know, you know. Yeah, of course a little bit. But I think-
- Can't win. - I actually think... That's right. I actually think that's
a healthy way to go, is to be secure in the
relationship and be like, "Yeah, my partner is hot, and I get to be with them." I think that's a healthy way to go. - And my other question is: Is this in the same line
as emotional cheating? 'Cause I've just kind of learned the definition of that and then you've just said that, and I'm sitting back and I'm like, "Wait, this sounds like
emotional cheating." I'm confused.
- I would say emotional cheating is
like you're developing a romantic connection with another person. - And emotional cheating is also secretive most of the time. - Okay, okay, okay.
- A lot of the time. - Having an open conversation with your partner about like... I mean, it's... You watch a movie and you're like, "Oh, you know, the actress
is kinda hot," you know? - Like, with my current
boyfriend, I am honest. We honestly make jokes about it sometimes. Like, I'm just like,
"Oh, are you into her? Are you into her?" And he's like, "No," you know? But like, obviously-
- Good answer. - I know that he, like, might think that she's pretty, but that's attraction, that's a physical attraction. There's so much more to a relationship that you can bank on, it's like an emotional thing or, like, are you there for me when I call you? - One question. Do you think, based on that, do you think that's a
healthier way, that, you know, sometimes you might joke
about it, that, you know, out of our choice, that we might find someone attractive or to just keep that
hidden and to yourself? - Well, okay, so I think
you should definitely... Like, if it's celebrity
or something, like, obviously I'm not gonna go and like... And too, I think too, like-
- Yeah, celebrity crushes. - when you're saying attraction, there's attraction and then
there's sexual attraction. So I think that there needs to be... They're two different things. I used to tell him like, "Oh my god, when I was little, I used to love like Raz-B, Chris Brown, all of them." Like, I used to think that
they were so, like, you know, handsome. But like in my marriage, like, I don't see another man and be like, "Ooh, like, he is..." - [Em] I have a question. (group laughing) I have a question. - [Gen] Yeah. - If you guys are done talking, I don't wanna interrupt. - Did you have something to say? - Yeah, and so I think
that also defining it within your relationship
is very important too, so like-
- Totally, what works for you. - Exactly. So we may look at the
terminology different. And so like for us, for example, if I say that I'm attracted to somebody... And we had to break this down even in our relationship. If I say I am attracted to somebody, that means that I'm
willing to pursue them, just within us, that's what we came to an agreement of. Now, I may say like, "Oh, they have a nice hairstyle," or, "They have nice eyes or
something like that," that's just a quick acknowledgement, and we may compliment them on it and just keep it moving. And that's just in our definition of what we have within our marriage. - If you cheat on someone,
you are not in love with them. - Agreers. Oh, I'm sorry. I messed that up.
- Oh no. - Agreers.
- Huh? - Oh, sorry. Apologies. - You are not in love with them, right? - [Gen] Yeah, not. - Okay. - At first I stood 'cause
I was trying to think in their own right, they may think they're in love; but as a flat statement, I don't think they are. If you really are truly in love, it's all you think about, is that other person, right? You want to be with them and you wanna try and do right with them. Even though there may be certain
things you do up and down that may not displease them, but you learn together. But going out and being unfaithful to them and then turn around
saying you still love them, it just doesn't sit right with me or it doesn't logically make sense to me in that aspect. Thoughts.
- Okay. - [Leon] 'Cause I know you're itching. (group laughing) - I'm itching. I think that falling in
love is an experience. In my experience, I had never encountered the
experience of falling in love. I can say with certainty today that my episode of cheating was definitely the experience
of falling in love. When I was with the
partner that I cheated on, it was a part of a plan. There was a plan to get married, there was a plan to have kids, there was a plan to make
sure everything we did was in the best interest of each other. Whereas the aspect of falling
in love, there was no plan. I crossed paths with somebody who lit my soul on fire and all logic went out the window. - Was that... Sorry, was that love though or lust? - Oh, it was, it was, it was so much. It was so much. So I think that when I
think of the word love now, I actually replace it with the word want. I think that the statement that was made about not being
in love with somebody, right, that doesn't necessarily mean that I don't have capacity
or capability to love him. I certainly was loving him in other ways. - Again, we're all doing this. We kinda like try to figure out what the statement means
and reading into it. But as the flat statement, I don't think all that's entail... 'Cause again, there is
different types of love. There's also each person's
way they look at love, what you think love is, at what age. One thing that even now you just said, now you look at love a different way. So it gets kinda complicated. But at the base level, I think I just feel like, ah, nah, you didn't really love them, even on your own description of what love means to you. Think about what love means to you. when you cheated, did you meet that standard
of what love meant? - Yeah, I think what's
tricky about it, right, was since I had, I'll say these idols of marriage, family, you know, all of that, I was more in love with the idea of what those things were than the person that I put into the role. - There's nothing wrong
with that, 'cause, again, we all come from experiences
that we've learnt- - But being able to kind
of look back and compare, I think that comparison is
the thief of joy, right? And what it does is it steals all of the value from the experience that was still very much valid. - Yeah, no one's saying it
might not have been valid, but it's, was it still love though? Because like you said, with- - I don't know if- - And it's hard to... I get what you're saying. You don't know because, again, you were in that, when you were in there, you were in it and you've grown and you've moved and you've changed. - Does that satisfy your question? - Yeah.
- Yeah, so I agree. I don't think that you can be in love and cheat on somebody. (dramatic music) - I wanna respond to something you said. (group laughing) - She's ready.
- Okay, right in there. - Came in hot.
- Yeah. You said that when you're
in love with somebody, they're all you think about, that you just wanna be with
that person all the time. And I vehemently disagree with that. I think... And for me, obviously
I disagree with this. I can say that I really
truly did love the people, or I should say most of the people that I cheated on in those relationships. I based my value and I based my identity on those relationships; that person was all I thought about. And it almost was like I trapped myself. It was like a self-fulfilling prophecy, and then I sought outside
of that relationship. I think that they say like, "Someone shouldn't be your universe, they should be a planet in your universe." So it's like I have friends. Sometimes I'm just like, "Bye," you know, and I go hang out with
my friends, you know? My family is very important to me. He is not my world. And this is the healthiest relationship, is my universe. - And I was saying that
more metaphorically, but I understand what you're saying. But even in that, you were infatuated and everything was him and you were giving all, then the question is: Were you in love then? - That's a good point. - And I'm just asking that as, just based on what you're saying, like- - Like, in my first serious
relationship, for sure, I was in love with him. And he was my first real love and I was in love with him and I still made the choice to cheat. It was a choice I made. It was a selfish choice. I felt extremely guilty afterwards. So I think it depends, but I think you absolutely
can be in love with somebody and still make bad choices based on selfishness, anger, insecurity, whatever it may be. - I believe that we can grow in love. I believe that there is portions
of our love that's lacking and then we can actually, like, you know, grow in that. So I don't believe that just because you
you cheated on someone, it doesn't mean that you, like, you don't love them. I believe that, you know, that there can be love there, but there's something there that just is causing that portion of it to just be almost like in depletion. Like, I couldn't love him fully the way that I needed, the way that he needed to because there was something
there that was lacking. Like, I didn't have the
understanding of, you know, what it meant to be a wife, what it meant to be a partner. - Falling in love is not a choice. You meet someone, it happens; for whatever reason, you're compatible. Staying in love is a choice. You are choosing... And perhaps in that moment you are not choosing to love that person, you're choosing not to love that person, and then maybe you can
choose to love them again. I'm not saying falling in and outta love, but love, to continue loving somebody is an action. - I do think that falling
in love is a choice. - Oh, okay. - And the reason that I think
falling in love is a choice is because you allowed it, right? Like, when I think about
the experience that I had, I had full autonomy in
that situation, right? I could have immediately
went to my husband and said, "I've caught something. There's something magical here. I gotta go."
- But you caught something. But you caught. And that's what I'm saying. Like, I was still... We were not together, I was still talking to my ex when I met my current partner. And I told my current partner at the time, "I don't wanna be serious with you." I never intended to catch feelings with my current partner, I just kind of fell in love with this guy. - You know, it's interesting. The prompt is in love, and some people didn't use that when they were talking, they're saying love, not in love. And to me in love and love
are two different things. I fall in love as a human being with other humans, men, women, whatever, I fall in love very easily. I believe in love. Love is the driving force in my life. So I was in love with every
woman that I cheated on; I was in love with them. If I loved them truly, that would have been a
different story, maybe. But to me there's a difference between being in love-
- So your capacity to love changed. - and you love somebody, right? - It's so interesting, because
I actually, in my mind, view it like the opposite. Like, I love so many people. - [Jillian] I would, I agree with that. - Yeah, I love my
friends, I love my family. I love people that I'm like, "Oh, we've just met and I love you." Like, in love, when you fall in love, you're in love with somebody, it just, it stirs something up, it's different. - I think we get to semantics. (group chattering) - It's totally semantic. I just thought it was interesting. - I feel like we should bring up limerence maybe for a second. We're all talking about falling in love. I feel like textbook psychology brings up limerence all the time, and they actually kind of just, like, shirk the entire affair
experience under this word. And this is-
- To the rest of the world that doesn't know what limerence- - Limerence is a chemical
reaction inside of your brain in the very early stages
of a relationship, so it occurs between mother
and child during birth. And what they say, or what a lot of people say is that limerence is
actually to blame for... And I'm not laughing, but I am. They say that limerence
is actually the reaction that is at play psychologically between affair partners because
it creates this infatuation, it creates the, all the ecstasy feelings of being in love. So I just-
- Like a drug. - Yes, yes.
- Do you guys know the- - A limerent object, a limerent addiction. - Do you guys know the 70/30 theory? It's like the layman's term- - Yeah.
- Yeah. That you're in a relationship with someone and you love them, and they have 70%, 'cause nobody is perfect, they have 70% of the things
that you're looking for. And then you meet someone
that has that missing 30% and you're like, "Oh, this person has
everything that I'm missing." And then you go and you
cheat with that person who is that 30%, and then you realize, "Oh, shit." - They ain't got that 70%. - Yeah, the 70% is gone now. Yeah.
- I'm gonna start calling my husband a 30 percenter. (group laughing) - That'll be our concluding spot. (group laughing) I would rather not know
that I was cheated on. (footsteps clicking) - It's lonely up here. So I think my perspective on this has shifted quite a
bit after the last year since I've been dialoguing so much with both betrayers
and the betrayed party. And I think that there's slight benefit to the person who has been betrayed if the betrayer has
already come to a decision about leaving the relationship. I think that our whole truth is not necessarily a obligation to give to everybody. - Did you let your husband
know when you cheated? - Oh, yeah.
- Or your ex-husband know- Oh, yeah.
- when you cheated on him? - Yeah, I told him.
- How did that conversation- - It was awful. It was horrible. It felt like I was giving
him more information than he needed. So what had happened was I fell in love with a colleague overseas. I was like, "There's no
way this can be happening. I am married. I can't do this." And then I slept with him and I went back home and I moved out. And I said, "Okay, I cannot
be trusted with this person." And I disclosed everything and dropped the hammer and then just went on my way to an apartment by myself. If you have cheated on somebody, the psychological effects on that person need to be considered. Your perception of everything that had occurred is tainted because you're wondering, "Well, was she thinking about me in this picture that we took? Was she thinking about him?" And I think that there
is just a lot to consider when you are deliberating on how much and what to share. - I love everything you just said. I agree, but with like a caveat of... I'm thinking of this from
the cheater's perspective. I always told my partners
when I cheated on them, but I told them for the wrong reasons. I told them to alleviate my own guilt when the fact is I should have
just ended the relationship. And so my thing is I wouldn't
want my partner to tell me just so they could beg me
for my forgiveness and, "Let's move forward, da da da." I would only want them to tell
me in the context of like, "And I'm breaking up with you." And no, like, details or anything. It would just be like,
"I'm breaking up with you." "Oh my god, why?" "I cheated, and I obviously can't be with somebody that I would cheat on." Like, that would be... So, yes, I would want them
to tell me, but, like, only in that context of like, "I cheated; we have to break up." - I believe you owe it to
that person no matter what. I believe that the person that
you cheated on needs to know. An not only that, it's the secrecy, like, that it hurts so much more when you're keeping it a secret from them and not telling them anything. I truly believe in confession. I believe you need to, I believe that needs to be said. And, like, they need to know that, that's, they need to know that. - Yeah. I know you mentioned,
like, psychological damage. How would you respond to that? - I would say it is
not my place to dictate what somebody else needs. It's their place to
tell me what they need. - Initially telling them that, "Hey, I stepped out and I cheated on you," is a necessity, just point blank period. Now, how far you go into details is going to then at that point be, okay, how much does that person ask, to where they may want
to try and figure out, "Okay, why did this happen? What happened? Who did it happen with? When?" If they ask those questions, then I think you definitely
owe it to them to answer it regardless of what you
may feel like for... To your point where you
brought up psychologically, I feel like at that point, once you already cheated, like, psychologically they've
already tooken a lot of damage, so therefore we still have to... - If you don't know about it, it doesn't do any damage. - Well, I have to say-
- That would be the- - There's one thing. You did say, "I don't wanna be with someone
who cheated on me," right, but you agreed that you would
never tell the person, right, if you cheated on them. So let's say you're in relationship- - I didn't say that. Well, but you came forward as an agreer, right?
- Yes. - And then just before we
all came forward, you said, "I would never wanna be in a relationship with someone who cheated on me." And if they neglected to tell you that, then you would technically
be in a relationship with someone who cheated. - Then I'll say I wouldn't
wanna be in a relationship with somebody I know cheated on me. And that's why I'm saying-
- Got it. Okay. - So I guess I'm not agree or disagree, I'm more in the middle of, like, I would want them to tell me, "I cheated on you and therefore, like, we should break up." - In my situation, I found out. But if I'm being honest with you, I don't know if it would've been worse or better if they told me. I'm being honest with you. I don't even know how to comprehend that. Like, me finding out than
you bold face coming to me and saying, "I did this, this, and this-" - It doesn't change the outcome. - Yeah, it's like I don't
think it makes any... Me, personally, I don't know-
- That can be subject to any, like, you know, everybody, like... But at the end of the day, I feel like when you're
holding something back from, it's honestly you're not
even taking accountability for what you did. So if you're gonna say like, "I'm not gonna tell them because of psychological damage-". - Hold on.
- You chose to cheat. - Hold on. Disclosing that you cheated to the person that you cheated on is not accountability. That is just revealing information. - [Raven] That is taking accountability. - Accountability-
- You can't- - Accountability-
- I would consider that as a form of taking accountability. You're so open-
- That's delivering news. - You're open about this. Listen-
- That's delivering news. - That is a form-
- It's the first step towards accountability.
- of taking accountability. Thank you.
- I agree with that. - It's the first step, not necessarily accountability. - Be open about this one-
- Let's let her respond. Let's let her respond. - Be open. - Girlfriend, okay, okay. - I'm just saying, you're very open about it, but you're like, it's like you, it's hypocritical. So when you're saying like, "I have the right to
withhold this information for the sake of psychological damage," but you chose to cheat. - You're talking about
the benefits for you. You're alleviating your guilt by telling somebody what you did. You are achieving relief
by doing a confession. And what I'm saying is
maybe it doesn't have to be that person. - [Em] As someone who's been cheated- - [Leon] I waws about to
ask the same question. - I guess, who else would you tell? - I would tell a therapist. I would go and I would
check myself into therapy and I would say, "Holy (beep), I derailed my life and I don't know what I'm doing, but I don't wanna cause any more damage, and therefore please help me. Guide me in my next steps." - A good therapist-
- How much more selfish is that, though? - Will allow you-
- It's so selfish. It's still a form of selfishness.
- Oh, I'm very selfish. I'm-
- Actually, to be honest, I think both-
- My number one priority- - I think both of those are selfish.
- is me, me. And that was the biggest lesson I learned- - And is it still like that
in your relationship today? - Oh, absolutely. If I wanna show up to a
thriving relationship, a thriving relationship
requires a fulfilled individual. And if I do not have me at the primary center of my decisions, I will start making
decisions for other people, and what that means is
they start to lead my life- - No.
- I don't. - We don't believe-
- I actually changed my... I think I've changed my opinion. It didn't occur to me, the
idea of, like, finding. Like, that just didn't occur. - That's what I'm saying, like- - If it's for me, if it's between walking in on
my partner cheating, I mean, that would just traumatize
me, versus, like, my partner coming to me and
saying, "Listen, I cheated." I would prefer the latter. I would want the choice. Do I wanna move forward
in this relationship or do I wanna break up? And I would wanna give my
partner that same choice, to put the ball in their court and say, "This happened. This is how I feel about it," which might be like, "and
we need to break up," or, "I don't wanna break
up," or whatever it is. "I did this, this is how I feel. How do you feel? Do you wanna stay with me? Do you wanna work this out or not?" - When you're telling the other person, I'm always curious, like, what do you expect from the other person? And that's where I start to question: Are you doing it for selfish reasons, 'cause I expect them to be say, "You know what? We'll work through it"? - I don't think you can expect anything. You have to go on without expectations..
- But I'm curious, like, at the time, do you, can you recollect or remember
what you were thinking? - Oh, at the time ?
- The time, yeah, what you were thinking when you said, "I'm gonna tell." - There were times I cheated that I did not tell my partner, so I'm thinking about that too now. When I told my partners that I cheated, it was out of guilt, it was out of shame. And my, I wouldn't
necessarily say expectation, but my hope was that
they would forgive me. And I did, I... I guess that maybe it was an expectation.
- Wait, I have a question really quick. Did telling them eliminate
your shame and guilt? - No, of course not. - But I'm curious, if you open- - Let's actually dig into, I guess, what was kind of like your point there. - If you are disclosing
information to somebody else in effort of releasing something that you feel is holding
you back, shame and guilt, that is actually not
the effective solution. The effective solution is going into the shame and
guilt, acknowledging it, and understanding why it's there. Shame tells me I am not aligned with my value system and the way that I operate in the world. - But that's why-
- But you're missing the point of the other person's time. You've ruined their, pretty much ruined their life. You've used up their time.
- Oh, come on. No, no, no. Hold on, wait a second. - So you don't think you've-
- Wait a second. - [Leon] Go ahead. - I think that the only person who has the power to
destroy my life is me. - Disagree.
- I mean, you can say that, you can say that now as a person who's grown and gone through something; but when you are in the situation, when in a relationship with somebody and they don't know that
you are cheating on them, you think, like, you owe that to- - Why would I develop a dependency for my life's purpose? - But it sounds-
- No one's saying it's a dependency. - No, it sounds like you're trying to say that I should just be able
to do whatever I want, how you take it is all up to you, but I'm gonna have the freedom to do whatever I want. If it hurts you-
- Oh, no, no. Maybe you didn't-
- That's what it sounds like. - Maybe you didn't hear
my first statement. I agree that you don't how
always have to disclose a betrayal to the betrayed person. - I think that you always
should give that to 'em. It's not in a sense-
- If you have- - to try and relieve-
- a suicidal- - any type of, you know, guilt or shame that you have, it's not to say that, "Oh, once I do this, I'm going to feel better." No, it's, as you said, to put the ball in their court and say, "You know what? I gotta be upfront with you," because just think about... You're thinking about the emotional trauma of what they're going to feel when you say it to their face, but what about the
trauma that they'll feel if they hear it from
somebody behind their back? - And, like, I have to just... About putting the ball in your court, I wish that had happened to me. Like, as the person cheated on, both times I was not told. Both times I, I don't know, used magical intuition or something, and I knew exactly who
it was, when it was, what time it happened, and I broke off the relationship the first time.
- Deep down we always know. - We always know. And so, I mean, I think,
yeah, putting the ball... I wish the ball had been put in my court. Both times I was not apologized to, they never admitted to doing it. - Oh, damn.
- And, like, I was- It's rough.
- I've been cheated on too. And I've also been cheated on- - And I wish I-
- Concluding thoughts. Concluding thoughts.
- When I was cheated on as well, he came and told me and broke up with me and gave me no option. - Right, so that's why-
- Wait, let's hear from- - But I think that that was very, very, very emotionally traumatizing
for me, you know? - Because it felt like abandonment? - Yeah, it did. But I've never been abandoned before. Like, I've never experienced that. - It was your first experience of abandonment.
- Right, right, right. And so it definitely, like, took time for me to get- - You brought up a very good point. What if someone is suicidal? What if they-
- See, I did hear that. - It's like that's-
- But I still- - That made me think because I'm like, "I think you should definitely disclose it at some point somehow." And yet if I had a
partner who was so fragile and I knew that- - But how long have they been fragile? Were they fragile when you cheated or way before you cheated? That's kind of what- - I've been in that situation. There are safeguards you can put in place, that you make sure that
they're with safe people, that they have people who can support them through that time, 'cause I have been in that situation. - But what I'm saying is I respect that, but the same token, when you met this person with a suicide- - Oh, no, I'm saying I
was the suicidal person who was cheated on. - But using that as like a deterrent for why you shouldn't tell
someone is not always- - As somebody-
- I understand it. - No, as somebody who
is in that situation, I agree that I was still glad I was told. - It's not always the cheater's
fault when they cheat. (footsteps clicking) - I can think of one instance where I would say it's
not the cheater's fault. If someone is in an abusive situation and maybe they don't feel safe to leave the relationship, I could understand why. And maybe even, like, they've fallen for someone else, they use that as an excuse to get out of the relationship. I would still say it stems
from within, for sure, but I would, that would be the one instance in which I would say I could
totally understand, like, where the cheating came from, that it's you're not safe. - I think that I have
read too many accounts of women and men being taken advantage of and being put into a situation where there really is no choice. So a lot of the women that I counsel are in domestic violence households and a lot of them have
been threatened with murder if they chose to leave the relationship. And so what ends up happening is all of a sudden you're at work and you are having a conversation
with a male colleague who exhibits genuine care
for you and your situation. It's almost impossible to stop the inertia of love from being able to take that person out of the situation. - If I had to play devil's advocate, do you think replacing something that can be considered negative with another negative makes it right? - It's difficult to compare,
like, one sin to another, but I think that at the end of the day, if somebody is harming you, whether it's emotionally or physically, and they're making that choice, that's always gonna be worse to me. - I also think that truth and reality really don't give a (beep)
about right or wrong. So it's kind of like, why would I be so obsessed with labeling somebody else's decision that ultimately resulted in their safety? - Yeah, it might make them safer. (footsteps clicking) - Okay, I believe wrong is wrong, I do. I believe that two wrongs
don't make a right. There is no way, like, I just... That's just my personal belief. I don't think that- - But what if that person
is not safe to leave? - Okay, so, but they're okay to cheat? - It's not a question of okay. - I think that it's without partiality. Like, I can't sit here and
say that somebody is right for cheating based off saying- - We didn't say right, we just said-
- Let her finish talking. - If they're okay to be able to cheat based off of the fact that they're in an abusive relationship. If you are in an abusive
relationship, get the heck out. - But what if you can't? It's not always that simple. - Then how is it that no one is able to- Like, tell me- - Girl, you gotta talk to some girls. - My question will be-
- Calm down. I just wanna know. I'm asking the question because you're saying
that someone can sit there and cheat on someone based off of the fact that they're in an abusive relationship. Where does that, like,
where does that come... Like, how does that make that okay or make it right? Where does that come in? - It's not a black and white thing, and I think we keep coming to that. I don't think anybody is
saying, like, it's okay. I think we're just
saying it's not not okay and it's in the middle. - But I believe in yes or
no, and okay or not okay, right or wrong. - I think some of us are
thinking black and white and some of us just aren't
those kinds of people, and I think that's okay. - Yeah, I'm not open about that. - But I'm not saying that being unsafe in an abusive relationship
makes it okay to cheat. What I'm saying is that someone might use forming a relationship with another person as a safety net, because now you have
somebody else to go to. Because I think a lot
of people don't realize, but the abuse actually kicks up after you leave the relationship. It gets worse because the
person who is abusing you will stalk you, will chase you, will blow up your phone, will show up at your house. It is very dangerous for people, I'm not gonna gender it, for people who are leaving
abusive situations, it gets more dangerous. And so cheating, forming another
relationship with somebody, may actually help that person find safety. - My question would be like, how would it help them find safety if their relationship is already abusive? I would think that that would anger the person more to where- - It doesn't matter, though. That's what I'm saying. - It's the disclosing
of the internal reality. - We are all humans in our bodies and you have a right to feel
comfortable in your body and to feel safe. And whether or not you
have to make a decision that makes you immoral, or whatever, in order to protect your safety, that is okay in my eyes. I don't think about right or wrong. I was raised in the church, so I was grilled a lot
about black and white and right and wrong. - Me too.
- I just can't. And my dad was a pastor, it's crazy. - I know we brought up
specifics and everything, but I think if we're just looking at the specific prompt in itself, I think that there's always a choice, there's always a choice. I understand, you know, maybe if someone's under the
influence and, you know... I can see how that could
be literally blurred. But I think in general,
if someone's sober- - Yeah, cheating is a choice. - Cheating is a choice. - No, I agree. And sometimes it's life or death. - And I think that that's
where we can put the fault on that person, because they made that conscious decision. - But what is the purpose
of assigning fault? - Well, I mean, I'm not
saying there's any purpose. That wasn't the prompt. It's like the prompt was, like, that the person is at fault.
- You're going off the prompt- - Boil it down.
- And she's answered it. - I'm trying to get deeper.
- But my point- - I'm trying to get deeper.
- No, I understand. I love that. - It's still that choice to where you have to have the accountability held for you. I think that's where it's important to have the right or wrong. Regardless of whether we think
it's black or white, yes, I feel like if we do not
have an objective choice of what is right, what is wrong, then we should just be in a
world that's a free for all and jail is emptied out, no judicial system. The thought process in my mind, I know it was brought up, that, okay, that may be their only way
outta the relationship. But then it was later brought up that sometimes getting
outta the relationship is the worsening part. So if you're leaning towards getting out the
relationship anyway, are you going to create more havoc? - No, what I meant is that
you have a safe haven now, that somebody, which also might lead to
more toxic situations. But I just mean if you were so desperate to get out of a relationship and you know that that
abuse is gonna crank up as soon as you leave, now I have somebody else to protect me. That's what I was thinking. And I do think that,
again, like, blame, fault, I prefer accountability. I think that's the thing. If something can be right, something can be wrong, something can be in the middle. - And right and wrong is
very subjective, like, it's very different for everyone. - [Gen] Last thoughts, last thoughts. - Right, at the end of the day, at the end of the day, whatever my, like, reason or excuse, or
whatever you wanna call it, it was a choice that I made, and I cannot put that on the other person. - We have to move on. Any last concluding words for each person?
- I wanna say one thing say. I wanna say one thing. - [Gen] No, we gotta move on
to the last concluding words. - Once a cheater, always
a cheater isn't a thing. I believe that there is forgiveness. I believe that you
should forgive yourself. I believe in confessing to your partner, I believe that you owe
that to that person. if you are cheating, you know, you need to tell them. And you can change. There is a new life for you. But that's what I'll say. I'll leave it at that. - It's great to, like, be able to have a conversation and see the other side and the other perspective
in a safe space, you know? So I I don't really have
any concluding thoughts about the conversation other than thank you for the conversation. - To hear your perspective, it all made me think and it... You know, the interesting thing for me is knowing why I cheated and where I am now just as a human being with my maturity,
understanding of the world, and my own history of abuse and trauma and how it, you know... It's like I've forgiven
myself a long time ago, so it's not about that. But kudos to everyone
for just being respectful and really being vulnerable, so yeah. - Obviously going
through being cheated on, it wasn't a great experience. But I am, I have a different perspective than I have ever had, like, than I ever would've had
if I didn't get cheated on, because now I know how to communicate, and I think that that's
like the biggest thing and the biggest gift that we all have, is we're able to speak and
we're able to communicate. - Yeah, I think, like, throughout this whole conversation, I think I learned that
communication is preventative on all different measures. And if we can learn how to have
that communication prior to, it can help us stay away from, like, the hard conversations after. - Right.
- 100% agree. - [Keith] So, yeah. - Tell it to all of
America and all the world about nuance and talking. - Ask for permission, not beg forgiveness. - Thanks for joining this
episode of "Middle Ground" of cheaters versus cheated on. - If you guys wanna
shake hands and embrace, please do so now. - [Chris] I'm giving hugs to anybody who wants a hug.
- I'll take a hug. - [Speaker] I'll take one too, let's go. Nice, you too.
- Oh, thank you. - Nice meeting you.
- Thank you. - [Chelsea] It was so lovely. (group chattering) - Yes, yes.
- Nice meeting you. - [Chris] Thanks for the hug. Oh, thank you. Thank you, that's great. - Yes, you're awesome.
- Oh, thank you.
