- Being a non-binary person
that sometimes has the choice to either go into a men's
restroom looking like this. You can look at me looking like this. - No, it's just interesting. I thought this was a trans debate. That's what I thought.
- Oh, don't even. - Non-binary people fall-
- Non-binary people fall under the trans umbrella. Yeah, so I don't know, maybe you could educate
yourself a little bit on that. - I think I could educate you.
- And maybe then you would figure out-
- I think I could educate you. - You know, what reality is.
- Oh, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa! (energetic dramatic music) - [Interviewer] It is a safety concern for trans women to
share a female restroom. Can the agreers please step forward? - Before we begin this episode, we know there's been a lot of
anticipation for this topic. - That is why we are excited
to release an extended cut of this episode featuring all prompts on our Middle Ground Patreon. - This is something that you guys have been asking us about for years, and we're excited to
finally be able to do it. And when you support our Patreon, you help us to make "Middle Ground" a show that truly promotes understanding and creates human connection. - And that is the point
of "Middle Ground." So now, let's get into the video. - Forward.
- Oh. (participants chatting faintly) - There's no-
- It depends. - Yes.
- Yeah. - So I think that to start
it off, though, too is, it's not necessarily
saying that trans women. It all comes down to self-ID. When we moved into a self-ID process, there are a lot of people,
there are a lot of men just simply self-IDing
into being trans women to utilize the female
restroom and to harm women. I think it's the biggest-
- Or just be there. They're getting arousal
from just being there. - You know, there was a
photo, or it was a video that went viral I think
like, just two weeks ago with some like, whole man with a boner in the women's restroom. And there's just some poor
woman filming it like, "Am I just supposed to like,
accept that this is here?" So I think there's levels to it. I think that trans women
who are actually trans, you know, we're talking
gender dysphoria, transitions, making the effort, you know, probably once you reach a
certain point in your transition where you can actually
assimilate within that space and not cause a disruptance,
that would probably be the ideal time to start doing that, right? Whereas, you know, a cross-dresser
who is emboldened to, in this current climate,
say that they're trans because now anything
is trans if you say so, that person should probably
stay absolutely out of women's restrooms because you're there to get your rocks off,
and the women are there to take a poop and a pee,
so it's not the same. And you know, I really
empathize with women who, you know, have an issue with it. And I can probably hear
some women commenting, "Well, how do I know the difference between a fetishist and
a real trans person?" It's hard. It's hard. However, that's the only nuance
that I know to give to it, which is, there's different
reasons people are trans, and some people really are
trans because they're horny and some people are trans
because they really felt that way from, you know, a young age or whatever. - See, I agree to an extent. Like, when you go to transition, and this is a fairly universal experience, you know, once you get to
a certain point of passing, that's about the time that you would start going
into the other bathroom as opposed to not make the
same sex uncomfortable. - Mm-hmm. - Once you reach that
point in your transition, a lot of things change. But you know, you start to see things from another perspective. You start to see things
from the perspective of a cis person.
- Yeah. - And I actually offer
some solutions to this because I believe the free market can handle all of this stuff
because in government-run and government-funded buildings, there should always be a
third space for us to use. And I do, when I go to the
Capitol and stuff like that, I always use third spaces. But I think that private property
owners can make the rules for their establishment and figure out how to enforce those rules. - I mean, I wouldn't say third spaces for trans people.
- They're not being allowed, though.
- Exactly, like, we're in a state right now-
- Just in general. - We're in a state right now
where you have to allow anybody to use whatever restroom they want. - If you're a decent human being, you do what causes the least disturbance. So for example, I filmed a
YouTube video a few years ago where I entered a men's restroom just because I was just
running into comments who were like, "Well, maybe
you should use a men's restroom if you really feel like the way you feel." And so I said, "Okay, let's
do it. Let's put a camera." And I was kicked out within seconds of the entire establishment
and it was a whole ruckus. So that's what I mean by,
if you're a decent person, you do what causes the
least amount of problems for people around you. And if you're, you know, a moral person, you're gonna be
conflict-avoidant in general when it's something like that, right? It's like, what's the point
of causing issues for anyone? Especially if you're
really just trying to pee. - Just put your head down.
- Get it done. - Go in, get out.
- Right. - [Interviewer] Can the
disagreers please step forward? (participants chatting faintly) - I wanna comment on Blaire's point. The one thing I kept hearing through all of the nuance is passability. - Also that.
- 'Cause ultimately, ultimately, when we
talk about passability, it determines how you get
harassed in the bathroom. Because honestly, if you don't
look so passable or whatnot, people are gonna say, "Oh,
that's a man with a dress on." And then there's gonna be discourse. But the reality of it
is, honestly, who cares who's trans and who's cis
going in the bathroom? You should be minding your
own business being able to pee and do your business in
peace, for the most part. That conversation around
this man with a boner on or whatever like that, I saw that picture and I thought to myself, "That's really a right-wing talking point and conservative propaganda
because that's their ideology." - How is it propaganda?
- When it comes to trans. I'm speaking, that's their
ideology when it comes to trans is because trans, I'm sorry, conservatives have a
basic-level understanding of what transness is in the first place. And with all due respect, I do not think any of you are basic, but they use you as the baseline to amplifying this propaganda. - How is it propaganda if it's
a thing that really happened? It was caught on video. Like,
it was an actual occurrence. It wasn't staged.
- Okay. - It happened, and that's not the only, it's not an isolated incident. - But that's not enough for me to say because actors can do that. Who knows, they could have been an actor trying to make a point
against trans people. But this has always been our battle. It's just like, from what I
just heard you were saying with your talking points, 'cause I did understand
what you were saying. I just just got the word
passability out of there and- - Which, I didn't say that word at all. - No, I'm saying that word.
- No, he said passability. - I'm saying-
- She didn't say it. He did. And the problem the left-
- I say it. - Okay, I didn't, I couldn't hear it. I just couldn't hear it back there, but no, what I was saying was-
- The liberals always use the- - Yeah, no, what I'm saying is, I'm not saying you said that word. What I was getting out
of what you were saying, the one word that was coming
to me was passability. This is Blossom saying it. And so passability politics is really a thing in our trans community, especially when we come to
the debate of restrooms. - Well, you can say it's politics, but actually it's just real life, right? It's just about-
- Correct, I agree. - Where you're able to assimilate
to and where you're not. And I think one of the biggest problems in the trans community is,
the community by and large has seemed to reject assimilation
and seems hellbent on- - That's not true. - I think it's absolutely true, which is, you see people talking about
how you don't need to work on your transition at all
to enter women's restrooms, and I think that that is so selfish. - That drives me crazy.
- It's so disregarding of women who may or may
not feel uncomfortable. - But the trans woman
experience is not monolithic, so who are we to police transness? Why are we policing
other people's transness and how they show up?
- I'm just listening to women. - We have to to protect women. - But why are y'all policing, though? That's what I don't understand. - But you're using words
that we're not using. - There's policing.
- It's not policing. We're listening to women.
- It is policing. - And if you have 50%, we won't say 50%, but if you have a large chunk
of the population of women saying that they're uncomfortable
with a certain thing, a good person leans in and listens, they don't just reject it.
- So why are you not listening to other trans women, Blaire?
- I do all day and right now. - Okay, so, but you didn't... And I'm not trying to be
combative or whatever like that. I'm just trying to figure
out, you know what I'm saying, what the middle ground
would be between you and I because you said one
side, and that's great, but what about the side of trans women? If we're not bringing both
sides into this conversation- - Here's what I would say then. - Then it is unbalanced. - Here's what I would say then, because I do understand both sides. I didn't, you know, I'm almost
a decade in my transition, which means I was one time
a year in, six months in, two months in, so I understand that. But I also knew at the very
beginning of my transition that if I'm not at a place physically where I'm not making people feel, or I'm making people uncomfortable, then that's on me.
- Right, correct. - That's my responsibility to make sure that I'm going places a certain way to make sure that they're comfortable. - Because it's for your
safety also, too, right? - It was my response. - But you also say that
your safety plays a part. - I know that you seem to be
looking it through the lens of always trans being the priority. I'm looking at through the lens of women being the priority here. There's plenty of situations-
- But why, why, why? I just wanna know why around that. - Because it's them who would fall victim to not actual trans women, as I said, but people posing as trans women. People who are actually trans-
- But trans women are also victims of that as well.
- Pause, I'm sorry. I would love it if the two
of you have said your piece and I would love to hear-
- Yeah, everybody's- - Yeah, yeah, I just
wanna make this point. - Nobody else is talking. - I just wanna make this point as well. But trans women also experience violence and also need that protection.
- No doubt. - And so that's the thing.
- No doubt. - Like, it should be
an even playing field. I'm not saying you're wrong,
but what I'm saying is, I would like to challenge
you to expand, to make sure you're being inclusive
of both sides or whatever because we gotta have-
- I am. - We have to have these
important conversations between cis women and trans women. - I mean, I think-
- And I'm just gonna say, and I'm not gonna just say cis women. I'm gonna say women, biological women. I wanna make it inclusive of everyone. - I think the middle ground, though, is, and I feel like I'm not coming at this from an extreme place. I feel like an extreme
place would be like, no trans women in the bathroom ever. That's the extreme position. I'm saying, work on your transition, take it as your responsibility,
and be respectful. And that's the middle ground, right? - This is a self-preservation
issue, right? So if somebody's in the
bathroom and they have a boner that looks bad on all of us. And when people, and when our community's not calling that out and not
saying that this is wrong- - But how many, I'm just-
- No, I get it. - How many cases has that occurred? - It happens a lot. We see
it's happening all the time. - No, I heard there's-
- I wouldn't say it's happening all the time.
- I have to actually see a Twitter account.
- Okay, stop there. I'm sorry, 'cause like, I just wanna make sure the
back and forth goes everywhere. - I mean, there's Twitter accounts with millions of followers that show this stuff multiple times a day. - [Blossom] Okay, now I know
what we're talking about. - And so we're showing
that these types of things do actually cause harm to trans people. So if you're looking at it in a trans lens and to say, "What are we doing?" We need to combat that stuff and come together to combat that stuff. - It does not encompass the
entire trans experience. - No, you're right.
- That's all I just wanna say. - Yeah, I think I see a
lot of different points from everybody here. Honestly like, I can understand like, how some women may feel unsafe with men in there in the restroom. Men, when I say men, I mean men. I'm not talking about trans women. So, being a non-binary person
that sometimes has a choice to either go into a men's
restroom looking like this, looking like this. You can look at me looking like this. - No, it's just interesting. I thought this was a trans debate. That's what I thought.
- Oh, don't even. - Non-binary people are-
- That's what I thought. - Fall under the transness umbrella. - I will say that.
- No, they don't. - Yeah, so I don't know. Maybe you could educate
yourself a little bit on that. - I think I could educate you.
- And maybe then you would figure out-
- I think I could educate you- - You know, what the reality is and what transsexual means so.
- I'm sure there's- - [Interviewer] Oh,
whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. - A non-binary Jubilee episode. - (sighs) Wow, it's-
- Only the people- - Well, because it's not a
debate about who is really trans and who is not.
- It can be. - We're talking about restrooms. As a trans non-binary person,
when I go into a place that only has men's and women's restrooms and I'm dressed like this.
- Mm-hmm. - My choice to go into the men's restroom at that point puts me in danger. - Six years ago when I, I've transitioned almost eight years ago, but six years ago it was
never an issue for me to use the women's room. Girls would literally drag me
in there with them and say, "Girl, you need to be in our bathroom." And I was like, "Uh..." I felt uncomfortable
back then. I don't pass. I know I don't pass,
so that's a me problem. And I'm not gonna turn
my fear of being attacked in the men's room into a woman's problem. It's still a me problem, so I need to work on myself, and it sucks. Does it suck? Yes, it sucks. I don't pass. I know I don't pass. But I still respect
women enough and I'm... Some trans people aren't capable of handling themselves against a man, but I am confident in
my ability to do that. And not everybody can. I get that. But it's just now, six years ago I used to
use the women's room. Now I don't because women have spoke out. They've come out and said
"We're not comfortable." There's too many
self-IDed people out there just taking advantage, and I choose to use the
men's room to protect them. - I can definitely
actually almost empathize with a lot of trans women and their experience in the bathroom, and a lot of the turmoil
with going in and, you know, especially with passability. But the layer that I feel
like in the conversation that's missing here is actually trans men. And also the fact that I was
born biologically female, and a lot of the things
that trans women experience of violence in the bathroom is what I experienced as a child. So the reason why my education
here is not necessarily to create an idea that I need to conform to Eurocentric standards. Myself, I'm a six-foot-tall
trans man, size 13 shoe so I don't fit into the
Eurocentric standards of what a woman is, and
I never did as a child. I was, you know, bullied
relentlessly for this and isolated from many spaces. So this discussion about trans
women being in the restroom also affects biological women
because here's, guess what, you know, biological women
come in all shapes and sizes. There are, you know,
a lot of lesbian women that deal with this issue
that I've related with and empathized because we both get pulled out of the restroom and thrown
and guys try to beat us up 'cause we're in a restroom with women. And then on top of it, to add that layer that it's not even being
discussed in any mainstream that this is just completely wiped out and that you're standing up for women, but you're not standing
up for women children. You're not standing up for biological females that are children. You're only standing up for
what really affects you. And it's kind of sad that
the idea that passability is, you need to work on your transition. A lot of folks, especially
in our community, have no access to
finances, resources, jobs to even get their foot in the door to get access to hormones. So you're putting all of these barriers just for them to be able
to go to the restroom, which is a natural thing
that we all have to do. So what do I need to do? Piss outside? Because that's how I was
treated my entire childhood. - I would. - I just feel like when
this whole topic comes up, like, it obviously goes back to like, there's dudes like, jerking
off in the bathroom. And like to me, like when
I hear that, I'm like, "Okay, like, but that's not trans women." So when we talk about this conversation and it seems like the fear is like, literally cisgender straight
men who are being creeps. And what sucks is cis straight
men can be like, creepy and then it's like trans women, trans men are like,
paying the price for that. - Yes-
- And I feel like, you know what, that's
what's really hard about it is because then I think
people get the idea or some people have the belief
trans women are just like, they're just men in dresses,
you know what I mean? But at the end of the day, like, for so many trans
women and so many trans men, the safest place for them is the bathroom that aligns with their gender. And if you go to a place
where it's illegal to do that or you have to go and like, what's your ID or like
your birth certificate? It puts you in an
objectively unsafe situation. And for me, like I'm like, if
I walk in the women's room, I mean, I know I like,
look like I look 12, but like I feel like
someone would be be like, "Get outta here," you know what I mean? But like, that's the vibe. Like, I think you gotta remember like, when we're talking about it
and we're talking about like, these creepy dudes, like, in the bathroom and not trans women.
- Here's the middle ground. Here's the middle ground. Y'all ready? We're gonna be so happy with this. This is the middle ground. We all actually agree. It's
men that are the problem. - Yep.
- It's not trans women, real trans women, however, the problem is, our community has really
eroded any barriers to actually being trans in the sense of, your average crossdresser can
identify as a trans woman. - But then it's not a trans woman. - Well, I'm glad you feel that
way. I feel that way as well. I agree with you wholeheartedly. However, with the state of
the political correctness within the trans community,
you can't really say that. Like that person is-
- Correct. - Is this person saying
they're a crossdresser? - And they're self-IDing.
- No, I actually agree. - No, they say that they're trans, but they're a crossdresser.
- Oh. - I actually do agree
with you, Blaire. 100%. - I take mine back.
- Wow. - That's one of those things. Yo, I've told you. I'm really like that. - Let's go.
- Oh my God. - And the reason why I say
that is because sometimes when we self-identify, some people can take advantage of that. - Yes.
- And that is something, unfortunately, that we cannot control. But we have to combat it with
facts, with the research, and with the information that
is presented in front of us. It seems like we're the ones
that's teaching everybody else because we live in a
predominant cis world. We're teaching them about us. And I just really think we cannot afford to be intellectually dishonest about our experiences as trans people. - There is something
that I think we can do. There's solutions to this. Like I do think something like,
you have to be on hormones or something like that
for two years or something before you can even change your
ID, like, across the board. That would eliminate the crossdressers from being able to go there
because then you can say, "Hey, my ID says this." And so it shows that you've
actually taken steps. It's not about passability. It's about how long you've actually been taking the steps to transition. - [Interviewer] I support
the transgender military ban. - Agreers? - I know.
- Oh my God. - I think that oftentimes when
you talk about trans people in the military, people
forget that most places, if we're talking about feet on the ground and really going into war zones are really dangerous for trans people. And so it's really an extra risk. - You're talking about the
culture that exists over there. - Yeah, the Middle East.
- Yeah, yeah, so... - It's like, that's not
exactly trans friendly. - The friendliest place for us, yes. - It's actually the opposite. The medications that we take
sometimes put us in conflict with being able to
actually be combat ready. But there is some nuance here, obviously. Like if there was a trans
cook or a trans medic, I'm not exactly gonna be upset. But for the most part
when it comes to combat... - I hate supporting,
like what you just said, I hate supporting it because
it goes to the narrative of the, should athletes compete in sports? You know, but-
- Trans athletes? - Yeah.
- They shouldn't. - The drugs we take do
weaken us, you know? So we're not, like you
just said, combat ready, but we're also not as physically strong as the guy counterparts
standing right next to us, so. - And I will say like,
as a person with HIV, I was diagnosed at 18, I
couldn't go into the military, like, because I couldn't get
BIKTARVY overseas, you know? - Yeah, so I will say as
probably the only person that served in the military on this entire panel.
- You have? - Yeah, you shoulda spoke first. - (laughs) It's okay. The thing about it is, I think that there is a
lot of nuance in this. I actually have friends that are currently
serving in the military. I think there was a lot
of misrepresentation of what the trans ban actually did. You know, you have soldiers, if you have surgeries, they go on profile, which means they can't
actually do their job. They can't do PT. If you have bottom
surgery, it takes a year. And so as a leader, that
person's filling a position of a job of somebody
that should be doing it. I don't mind somebody who
is actually on hormones going there because
there's a lot of people, I mean, people take PTSD
medications overseas. They actually take six months
of medication with them. So a full-out ban I
don't necessarily support because I think that any and
everybody in the military, as long as you can do your job, you can go in there and
nobody really cares. But it is those times when, if you can't perform your
job, that becomes an issue. You talk about with HIV, actually, most people don't even realize this. If you contract HIV while
you're in, you can stay in a nondeployable job.
- Yeah. - Right, and then also, you know, if we wanna just get super real, you have the trans suicide rate. And if you really wanna compound that by the veteran suicide rate, that's not exactly a concoction- - Right.
- For very positive results. So I see how a trans ban
could actually benefit us, and Lord knows I'm not
trying to get drafted so I'm all good with it.
- Period, period, yep. (dramatic tones resound) - Hey.
(Alexander chuckles) - I think it's very discriminatory to keep trans people out of the military. We pay our bills here.
We pay our taxes here. We are Americans. We deserve
to serve this country as well. However, you all did
raise some great points about the concern and
safety of trans people, and I do agree that something does need to be done about that to protect us. Who's protecting us in
the military? Who is? - I mean, if you're even
diagnosed with like, mild social anxiety, you're not eligible to enter the military. If you have like a crooked
left, you know, pinky toe, you're not eligible, so discriminatory, I mean, that word sounds pretty, in today's climate, very much
like, oh no, discrimination. But it's not always bad. Sometimes it's for the
safety and it's like, you know, when it comes to the military and when it comes to keeping America safe, that has priority over
anyone's feelings being hurt. - Discrimination is discrimination, and I don't think there's
any other way around it. - [Blaire] It's not always
a negative thing, though. - It's still discrimination.
- We need to protect- - Doesn't mean it's negative, though. - Our troops over there,
while they're over there you're talking about, or protect them before so they can get in? - Oh, it is important to protect all trans
people in the military. - Well, we can't with
resources protecting them. - And so what if the
best way to protect them is not putting them in the
Middle East with Muslims that are gonna kill them? - Well, I just wanna interject
your point about suicide. So as somebody who has
worked in community service with community members directly, a lot of their suicide
issues actually revolve around access to finances. And the military is one
of the highest employers of transgender people. So we actually see the suicide rate drop. And for me personally-
- Well, that's a good point, but it's one of the highest
employers of anybody. - But if you're suicidal
and you go into a job that has a high likelihood
of PTSD, causing PTSD and all these other issues,
then it becomes a big issue because then you already
have one mental illness, and then you're compounding it with more. - And when you're on, you
know, a very strict regimen of, you know, if you're trans
and if you're really trans, and we can get into
who's really trans later because I'm gonna have
a lot to say about that. - Yeah, I wanna know what
you're talking about that. - But if you're gonna
be on hormones, right, you're not always gonna
have access to those drugs when you're deployed and when
you're in those situations. That's why I say if you're, you know, a line cook or something, if you're whatever, that's one thing. But if we're talking about combat, you're not exactly gonna have access to your testosterone blockers and your- - How do you know that? Because
medical care is covered in- - Because they don't have
those kind of pharmacies in the Middle East.
- Medical care is covered in the military so they
should have access to that so that is false information.
- Not necessarily, no, if you- - And also, you guys
are forgetting the fact- - Right, but-
- Well, hold on. You guys have all forgotten the fact of, what is the flip side for
these transgender individuals that are signing up for the
military and they're taken out, and that was their life plan? Where are they supposed to work, and where is their
employment supposed to be? - No, I agree that-
- Because the mental illness that happens through homelessness- - I agree it's horrible.
- And the lack of resources that come.
- I agree it's horrible. - So that is also the flip side of that. So folks don't have- - But they didn't kick anybody out. - Hold on one second. But if they don't have access to a job that could offer them support-
- My eardrum. - And research and access to
medication, access to benefits, lifetime benefits, that's something that most transgender people
in any sector of any job- - So do you want an
answer to your question or are you just gonna rant? Because I can answer if you said, "What about those people
that were kicked out?" I actually think it's bad. If you are someone who was
in it and you really are, because just like, you know, Sara, and I've met many trans veterans that I've paid respect to
you publicly on social media, and I think it's amazing, actually. So if you're kicked out
and it was once, you know, the norm that you could-
- But what's the resources you're offering them?
- I'm speaking, though. If you're kicked out
and it once was the norm for you to participate in
the military, that's sad. But at the same time, if
that is what is determined for the ultimate safety and
effectiveness of the military, nothing should come before that. - Blaire, have you ever worked directly with trans people?
- Because the second bombs- - Have you ever worked directly with- - I am right now, I am right
now. We're surrounded by that. - No, directly in services in terms of non-profits and
actually getting clientele. - Sir, she's a trans person.
- She's not grassroots. - That's my my entire career. - She is not a grassroots person. - Not grassroots?
- Because truth be told, a lot of our community- - What does that even mean?
- Is in grassroots. - Have you ever had a client list- - Nonprofit organizations
that are trans-led- - Of transgender people that
you actually took care of? - Hold on just a second.
Hold on just a second. - Took care of them like
what? Like paid their bills? No, I don't-
- I'm sorry, excuse me- - Offering them services,
getting them through services. - I've helped a lot of trans
people in my life, yes. - Trans-led organizations
that are ran by trans people. I really wanna see what you've
done for those organizations 'cause I don't see any of
y'all on the front line. - I'm on the front line-
- The front line? - Fighting against the-
- What are you talking about? I've dedicated-
- I'm on the front line. - Hold on, hold on. I've dedicated my entire
life to, in my own way, and you can disagree with
it because we all have our vehicles and our methods-
- Correct, absolutely. - Towards promoting trans acceptance and the ultimate progression of the quality of life of trans people. I've dedicated my entire
life to that, right? I access millions of
people every single month on all my social media, and I have people reaching
out all the time saying that I've saved them from just
like we mentioned, suicide. - But what are you
physically doing, Blaire? - Physically, physically-
- Physically doing. That is the point. - Have you ever taken on a client load? - Okay, so here's the thing.
- Have you ever had someone come to you homeless
and give them resources? - I'm sure you guys feel very-
- Do you have like, a trans humanitarian youth
behind you or something? - You guys are asking questions, and you have no interest in the answer. I'm sure you guys are very, very proud of the fact that you can walk-
- Because you're going around in circles, Blaire,
that's what we're saying. - How could it be a circle when I haven't answered
the question at all because you keep speaking? I'm sure you guys are very proud that you can enter a building and work with 25 people at a time. I access millions every month, babe. - Oh, that is not what nonprofit work is. - That's what I do. You know, you- - You are so disengaged from that. - It's really disappointing that you would ever
equate community services- - This is disappointing, actually. This is disappointing, actually. - This is very disconnected.
- It's disappointing that you would disrespect
all of the people that are in community service and all of these social workers that
actually do help trans people. - Correct.
- Okay, pause. - And it's really
disappointing that you guys are disrespecting what
the fuck I do, right? - [Interviewer] Blaire, Blaire, sorry. - When you say something
about what is grassroots, that's the problem that I feel that some trans influencers
are disconnected. - Well, you're using a metaphor for something that's professional. - That is not a metaphor. - [Blaire] They're gonna speak
in platitudes the whole time. - That is a tangible
resource organization. - [Blaire] That's what they're gonna do. - Because if you... This is where y'all's privilege come in because if y'all don't need services- - My privilege?
- My content is a resource. - If you do not need
services from nonprofits- - First of all, ma'am,
don't come for my privilege. - That are trans-led, you
have privilege and you have- - Because I was raised by
drug addicts. I have HIV. - I'm sorry.
- I create the resources. - I would rather-
- I create the resources. - Work with detransitioners as a resource. - My content is a resource. - So we're gonna work with detransitioners who actually need our help.
- Okay. - [Interviewer] Um... (Blossom laughs)
- Hello. - But we're not talking about military. - Oh my God. - [Interviewer] Get to another one, but I'm gonna give you one more chance. - It's the condescension for me, you know. - I will take a step back and let other people have an opinion. - I feel like, so like Blaire said, like when you wanna go into the military, like, they gotta like,
check you out and like, are you fit to go into
the military, whatever. For that reason, I don't feel
like a ban on trans people in the military is necessary
'cause I feel like, who's ready to go to combat
and who's ready to go in, like, they'll get in. I think there are people who
are like, able to do that. Maybe people who aren't. And I feel like that will be determined without just a ban across
the board, and yeah. - So it wasn't actually
a full ban, though. That's what people don't realize, okay? - You can still enlist. - Nobody got kicked outta the military. They didn't take a single
person outta the military who came forward and had gender dysphoria. Two, it was actually easy. It's more open to serve under the the ban than it was under Don't Ask, Don't Tell. - Yeah.
- Okay? So you could actually be a trans person and present however you wanted off duty. You could go to a ball in
a dress and nobody cared, and they couldn't kick you out. And serving in the
military, it's not a right. They can disqualify you for
any reason, physical, anything. People get kicked out all the time because they can't pass PT test. - Right.
- And overseas, yeah, you don't necessarily
have access to refrigerators for your testosterone or
any of that other stuff. So if you're taking injections,
it's a lot different. - I'm supposed to refrigerate it? - I don't know, I don't take testosterone. - And that's gonna melt in the Middle Eastern sun, believe that. That estradiol is gonna be- - Female hormones are
not always refrigerated. Let's just make that clear. - Well, my concern would be that like, who's joining the military
not to serve in the country but only to get the cheaper drugs and the paid-for surgery.
- Hello. - And I don't want that trans
person defending our country. - Okay, who's joining the military because they got a woman pregnant and they just need to pay their bills? There's so many different reasons- - I don't want that person either. - [Shane] Why people join the military. - Because I want dedicated people. - And also, there are
easier ways to get the- - I want dedicated people
that wanna defend the country that I live in and protect us.
- There are easier ways to get drugs, there are
easier ways to get drugs than to join the military. That's a big commitment
to get drugs, dude. - Let's put it this way. There are far less debilitating things that will disqualify you from access to the military then trans. And if you wanna put it on a scale, trans is one of those things that for a lot of people
is quite debilitating, whether it's mentally,
physically, whatever. If you have, you know, social anxiety, if you have depression,
any of these things that are less mentally
taxing than gender dysphoria, all those things, then why is
it that we should have like, a go around because we're trans? I go with what the generals say. I go with what the people at the top say this is what is the most effective
way to have our military. - Just not General Milley.
- I just really hope- - Just not General Milley.
- That the people at the top- - No, not him, you know what I mean? It's levels to that, too. - I just really hope that
the people at the top that you're referring
to aren't transphobic because let's be clear of the
isms that are in the military. - My God.
- We live in America. People are allowed to be.
- Excuse me, I'm speaking. Do not interrupt a Black trans
woman when she's speaking. - You've interrupted me hella times. Hella times.
- When it comes to isms- - Did the interrupter just say- - Again, if you are Black-
- Use her skin tone to say you couldn't interrupt her? - If you are Black and trans-
- That's amazing. - And you want to go into the military, I'm quite sure that my experience would not look the same as y'alls. And if we can't wake that up, then we're really being complicit. - They don't look at your race. - I don't think your skin
tone makes any difference. As somebody-
- Well, yes, it does as far- - No, as somebody who
served in the military- - [Blaire] But it doesn't, but it doesn't. - For you to tell a Black
person that is so problematic. For you to tell a person of color here- - But why do you have to
put Black in front of it? - Because I am! This is my experience
and this is my reality. First of all, that is so disrespectful- - It has nothing to do with
your transness, though. - To tell a person of color-
- I'm gonna have an aneurism. - A Black person how they should feel. How dare you sit up here and say that. - Okay, well, it's disrespectful for you to tell a white
person how to feel. - You screamed at him and used your skin- - I did not scream.
- Yes, you did. - You're being disrespectful.
- Rewind the tape of screams. - You wanted me here and I'm here. - Your screams.
- So whatcha gonna do? - [Jessica] Rewind the
tape. That was good. - [Interviewer] Let's stop. - You wanted me here so I'm here. - Replay.
- Right. - You in particular.
- So be respectful. - Calm down and speak
like a normal person. - Me in particular? What
are you talking about? - It's not my fault that y'all
don't understand respect. - [Interviewer] I'm sorry, let's pause. - You're interrupting everyone. - Oh my God.
- Can you please stop? Stop, stop. We're good.
- Okay. - You need to calm down.
- No, you do, honey. - [Interviewer] We're
gonna change the rules. - My God, someone get a Xanax for her. - [Interviewer] Okay, the rules are- - Oh, keep it cute,
girl, Keep it real cute. - Oh, that's inappropriate-
- Bodyguards outside. - But the rest of the shit isn't. Okay. - Keep it real cute now. - [Interviewer] The rules
are, you cannot speak when somebody else is speaking. - Fair.
- Okay? - Mm-hmm.
- Aw. - [Interviewer] We haven't
found a middle ground. That's okay. - I think we did.
- Okay. - I feel like there was a
little bit mixed in there. - Yeah, I agree with
what y'all were saying. It wasn't really like... I thought it was great-
- So imagine when we disagree. That'll be fun. - I feel like it was really interesting hearing your perspective
about being in the military, and I don't know if there's really like a true middle ground
found, but I feel like I have like, a better understanding of kind of where you're
coming from with it. - Yeah. - And I feel like a lot
of points make sense, and it's also an issue that is hard to get a definitive
answer and agreement on. - Everybody doesn't
have the same struggle, and that does include in the military. People, some people in our community have to go through much
more extremes than others. And so for me, my question becomes, how are they being taken care of? Especially when a trans person
comes out in the military, yeah, we have these things enacted, but that doesn't mean that in reality and in physical time that
they're being treated under what is in the law that's
supposed to protect them. So that's where I'm coming from
or whatever because reality and what's on paper are
two different things. - But they are, so this is, again, the culture of the military. This is a debate that we have as civilians that the military doesn't have, okay? Just plain and simple. If you can do your job,
nobody cares who you are, what you do, what your
extracurricular activities outside of the military are. All they care is that they
can count on the person to the left and right of 'em. And again, like I said
before in the very beginning, if you can't deploy and
you can't go do your job, then there's really not a big
reason for you to be there. - And to agree with your
point, I'm not in the military, nor am I a military general, but I trust that military generals know how to get their
troops deployment ready. And if someone is able to go
through all the rigorous steps, take out the trans, but they've
been able to meet medical, health, all of the hoops
that need to be met, I don't see any reason to take
away someone's opportunity to serve this country and to be proud of serving this country
because being American is something to be proud of. - Yeah, and like, the trans
ban didn't actually do that, like I said before. You just couldn't go
actually like, take hormones and transition while you were in, and it was a lot different
'cause I served in 2010, 2011 before Don't Ask, Don't Tell was repealed so I know what it was
like before that as well. - And I totally agree
with what you're saying so there's some middle ground. - [Participant] There's
some middle ground there. - Let's go, people.
(participants clapping) - Thanks.
- Group hug. - I brush my hair at the haters. - [Interviewer] Schools should include trans conversation in sex ed. - [Announcer] Join our
Middle Ground Patreon to watch this exclusive prompt. (dramatic tones resound) - [Interviewer] It's okay for
minors to get top surgery. - Hm!
(Sara chuckles softly) - Really? - You guys weighed in on that?
- That's pretty vile. - I feel like the vibe is like, as someone who had top
surgery and went on hormones, like, it's a very emotionally
intense experience. I think in terms of like,
minors getting surgery, like, the reason why
I'm not like, no to that is because I feel like maybe
someone's like 17 or something. I honestly feel like it is
a really intense surgery, but I feel like if somebody's
like 17 or like late 16 and like, feels like it's right for them, I mean like, people are really different. I know for me like, top
surgery when I was like 16 would have been like so good and it would have literally like, saved my spinal cord from
like, binding all the time. That's why I'm like, yeah,
like I feel like in instances, like, it can make sense. - So I'm not a trans man, so I don't have the experience or whatnot, but I do think that it
has to be done safely. There is a process when it
comes to having these types of gender-affirming surgeries,
you know what I'm saying? Talking with your parents and
then going to endocrinologists and going through therapy to make sure this is right for you. People have a choice to their autonomy. Now, I know that everybody does not. - Yeah.
- But those that do or whatnot should choose with the
right medical education. - Yeah.
- They should choose with safety and with full
understanding of what is a benefit and what may not be a benefit. - I agree with a caveat
that there does need to be some sort of process, which there is, by the way, in place. - Yeah.
- Yes, absolutely. - Sometimes does it slip through? Yes, things happen because again, as I said earlier, this is a big world. But to again negate people the ability to walk through a door that
you have walked through, I'm gonna say this again,
and then close it behind you is a little bit of a slap in the face for anybody who's seeking transition. - Yeah.
- Mm. - And as somebody who has
experienced top surgery and also waited quite a bit of
time, a lot of severe damage, actually, was created to
my rib cage that my wife, who is half my size actually
has the same size rib cage in the back as mine. And these are permanent damage to my body because I binded for about eight years, and there's even still issues
that I have with breathing and certain issues that
I face that, you know, unfortunately, if I had
that surgery a lot earlier, I would have a better posture. I'd have a lot of pain
that is not within my body that I have to deal with on a daily basis. While simultaneously
the idea that, you know, I get maybe under 16 top
surgery would be something that would possibly even make
me a little uncomfortable. But I also know that I was
homeless at 16 paying my own rent and left my home at 16
and had to live my life as an adult very early. So I was able to make
those decisions for myself, but I think it's weird that
others can't seem to see that I could make a
medical decision for myself when I had to physically
take care of myself. And I look at some of these
younger kids and there's a sense of jealousy there and excitement
for them at the same time because they now have access to memories and being in the space and being
in a comfortable body that, you know, I had a lot
of isolation growing up in my childhood because
I didn't feel comfortable to present in a female
space or a male space. I was isolated constantly from school, from the outside world, from my family. And my transition, my top
surgery has done nothing but take physical pain off my body, especially with as large chested as I was, and having to bind for
as many years as I did. (dramatic tones resound) - I don't think any minor should be having
life-altering elective surgery or life-altering elective
medicalization, period. And so when I work on
bills across the country that do ban this for minors, there's a couple things I point out. I point out that I don't
think a 16-year-old female who wants breast implants should
be able to get that either. When we look at what
we allow minors to do, like surgeries and stuff like
that, they're not lifesaving. They're not. If you don't get
it, you're not going to die. It's not like getting,
like having appendicitis and having to get your appendix removed or anything like that. It's elective. I think
that's the key point here. - Agreed. - My thing about surgery, I'm actually vehemently against
surgery, like, all of it. Top surgery, bottom surgery, all of it particularly because
you need your genitals. Like, it's just that simple.
- Hello. - You know, you have these people now who have non-functioning fake
penises and vaginas that, you know, you've had issues like, for instance, Ritchie had where like, your urethra folds in half and
then you can't pee no more. - This is about top surgery. - Oh, are you not getting
top surgery too, yeah. - Yeah, I mean, or just
surgery in general. I don't think that that's necessarily, like you said, it's not
like you have appendicitis. It's not like you've got like a bone spur. It's, you know, like, you don't- - I disagree with that because
I was in physical pain, and the moment that I
got that top surgery, the pain was alleviated.
- Well, that's need. That means you needed a
breast reduction, my friend. - No, it's just binding, dude. - No, it's from binding-
- Binding goes crazy. - It causes some issues.
- I mean, I binded for eight years. I know, like, it sucks, but-
- I know, but- - Like, you just keep binding, like... Honestly like, my ribs are like, I'm like, ew, I hate my ribs. Like, they're all like, messed up. - It's your body type.
- Is that an issue with safety of binding, though? I'm actually curious about this. - Yeah honestly but the thing-
- It's the safety of how they teach you to bind? - I think it comes with
like, the size of your chest. So like, I had a big chest so like- - Same.
- I had, like I had... It was the only way, you know what I mean? - [Shane] Same. - And I did try and
like, bind like, safely, and I did buy like, reputable
like, binder brands. But it is a lot when you're
doing it for a really long time. - I used to wear it for
three days straight. - I know, me too. And that's what it's like,
you're not supposed to, but like- - Was your doctor telling
you that that's not safe? Because you're not even supposed
to wear it for 24 Hours. - Oh, yeah, of course.
My doctor's old school. - Yeah, but you know, and
I did have to go through- - Six to eight hours is...
- Like very, for top surgery and testosterone, like,
I had to go through like a really big process. And I think that's my thing is like, instead of an age thing,
I think there's like, there should be a process. You should have to like,
live as that gender and be seeking care and be
having like, a therapist for a long term term and a
psychiatrist for a long term and an endocrinologist for a long term. And like, it's really like,
specific to the person, and I think would be
like, really rare anyway. But that's just my stance. - That I agree with to an extent. - This is definitely the prompt that I am the most passionate about because I think there
are few things more vile, more irresponsible,
more, you know, dangerous than saying a child can consent to permanently removing a body part that serves an extremely
important function. Detransitioners all over the country can never breastfeed their children if they can even have them
because if they did other things, that can stop them from
having kids at all, right? The idea that a child can
consent to a sex change, to gender-affirming surgery,
if you believe that, there's really nothing
that you can believe they can't consent to, right? Because that's pretty extreme. That's a permanent body modification under the best circumstances. So you wanna move aside
all the complications, all the things you can't do, the sterilization, not being
able to feed your kids. You can even set that aside. Just the permanent body modification. I mean, you have to be so demented to believe that a child fully understands. I heard a few conversations about, "Well, if the child fully understands." They don't. They don't
because they're children. That's like how being a child works. - I'm 21 and I still don't understand. - Like if a 17 year old's
like, living as male for like, five years, it's like-
- The prompt was about minors, and 12 year olds are getting top surgery so it's easy to say, "Well,
if it's 17 year olds..." Okay, well-
- In my state, that's actually the legal age. - There's a nuanced conversation
about, even 17 year olds I guess because the age of
consent in some places is lower, but that's not what's happening, right? It's 12 year olds. - When we talk about minors, it's like, what age range are we
really talking about here? - Anyone under 18.
- Because the thing is, when we talk about
detransitioners or whatnot, all I hear is a lot of regret, right? Regret that they got these surgeries, regret of the complications,
regret, regret, regret. And that's fine. I'm not taking away anybody's experience because these things do happen. But let's also remember,
again, there is a process. Now, I have a lot of empathy
for those detransitioners that have gone through the
process and they are suffering. I do have empathy for that.
- But it's not just detrans people, it's
not just detrans people. - But that's why I'm just
talking about in the conversation for this particular conversation. And I understand what you're saying 'cause you're absolutely right. There are more people
that are doing that, but- - Even among adults, we
all do different things in our transition.
- Correct. - Some of us want
bottom, some of us don't. Someone want top, some of us don't. - I understand, but-
- So you need a lot of time as an adult to figure
out what you wanna do. - But see, the thing is, though, some adults don't even
understand what they want to do so that's the kind of thing.
- Exactly, so how can a child? - But see, children, wait a
minute, let's not underestimate- - Am I on a different fucking planet? - The power of these kids today, okay? They are very much more educated because they have much
more resources and access than we did coming up.
- Wow, so they're advanced- - So let's be very clear about that. - And they can consent.
Who else says that? - And when we talk about detransitioners, that has been the main topic here or whatnot 'cause we wanna-
- But it's not now. - Bring detransitioners in to
the room so there's the space. - [Interviewer] Okay, Blossom,
great, we got your point. I would like to open it up-
- Thank you. - To everybody else-
- To your point about, the reason why I'm against
it is because, like you said, the children need to go
through the proper steps, the parents, the doctors. But in the state of California, if you as a parent tell your minor, "No, you're not getting this. I'm not affirming your gender,"
I'm taking your kids away and California's gonna
raise your kids for you so how is that?
- Canada too, Canada too. - [Jessica] That's not right. - [Sara] We also know that
like, all those safeguards that you're talking about,
they're not happening. - Yeah, that's what I'm saying. - [Sara] They're not happening at all. - California will take your kids. - And we know because there
was a whistleblower out of St. Louis and this isn't
some conservative whistleblower. She was married to a trans man and she considers herself queer. So she blew the whistle and said that they had an in-house doctor. If you couldn't find a
affirming therapist to sign off on the form, they would pencil whip it. - But do you believe
that it should happen? Do you believe there should be a process when it comes to medical transition? - No, there is no right process for kids to hack off their breasts. - Oh no, I was asking her,
honey. I'm sorry, I was asking- - No, no, no.
- Well, I answered 'cause I'm here in the room, so. - No.
- Okay. - Thank you. - I feel like personally, like
if we're talking about like, a 12 year old getting
top surgery, like to me, that's just like medical malpractice because I know for me
like, to get top surgery, like, I could only get it at 18 'cause my insurance covered at 18, but I had to start that
process like, long before. Like even hormones was a long process. So I think there's like,
an area of literal, like, medical malpractice
because no, like, kid at that age should be getting that in my
opinion 'cause you do not know. But I do think there are
instances where like, a 16 or 17 year old like, could get it. And I don't know if that means like, banning like, below 16
or like whatever, but- - So in the UK it was the... I can't remember what it was. It's the reason why they're shutting down the Tavistock Clinic in the UK, though, is because they found that when
you start a child on hormone or on puberty blockers
then hormones, it leads, it's basically a foregone conclusion that they're gonna end up having surgery. It puts them on a path to,
it's a sunk cost fallacy. - I just, again, I don't
understand this obsession with- - Obsession.
- Other people's children. - It's about caring about kids. - It is, I'm talking. Oh my God! - Obsession?
- Get it together! - I have it together. - [Interviewer] You guys
have to, you have to stop. Let Alexander.
- Yo, the obsession. The obsession with the conservatives about other people's kids. If it is your child, it is your choice what you do with your kid. - Just to talk about someone who's at 16 and their level of consent
in the state of California, from my understanding, someone who's 16 can also drop outta high school, which would severely affect their life. And they have access to that
decision if they want to because say, they want to
get into the job market or whatever their, you know, reason is. But they have that option
to make that choice at 16. I will agree with you that someone at 12, I'd be uncomfortable with
somebody at 12 years old getting surgery completely
because there's still a lot of the world for them to
learn about themselves, how to navigate it, et cetera, et cetera. But for us to have access to be able to drop out of high school if we wanted to and make such a life-changing
decision that could affect, I mean, you economically,
socially, so many different ways. But then to say, "You know what, you're not old enough to make
this decision," for me, again, as somebody who was 16 and
was in such a religious family and all the restrictions that I had, if I didn't have access to those things, I don't know if I would be here. And I've learned a lot
through my transition and through my access. And I even grew up in the wild, wild West where everything was still on YouTube and we didn't really even
have medical providers really even giving us guidance,
and especially trans men. So I find it rather
uncomfortable that we're able to make a 16 year old be able
to make that type of decision. An 18 year old is allowed to
go into, you know, service. But for some reason we
can't give that same access to a kid to have that consciousness 'cause I can tell you
at 16, I knew who I was. Not at 12, not at 14, but 16, there's a certain level of
consciousness and experience that you've experienced in society that you understand the pocket you fit in. - But just because other bad things happen doesn't mean that that is okay. Its like, so just because
they can drop out of school means they should be able
to cut their breasts off? - [Interviewer] Thank you. Non-binary should not be considered under the trans umbrella. - Let's go, girl. - [Alexander] This is evil. - I think that the concept
of a transgender umbrella is inherently an issue, right? Because when you're talking
about something as nuanced, complex, full of social
dynamics, medical dynamics, so many things to be considered, when you're talking about a transsexual, you should really be specific, right? And this entire concept, actually, of transgender is relatively new. Like, it came about in the '70s
or '80s through queer theory when originally it was about transsexuals, which was considered a medical diagnosis, which was a medical process, and it defines something very specific. So for me, when I hear that non-binary, which if I'm to understand correctly, means that you-
- I think androgynous. - Right, and it means you, you know, identify somewhere in
between male and female. That's not what a transsexual is. - The definition of a trans
person is somebody whose body has been altered or
somebody who identifies as a different gender,
whose body has been altered by hormones or surgery.
- Right. And there's two genders,
so if you wanna say, you know, you identify
as different gender, it has to be one of those two. - That's the big argument, yeah. - Which would make you a transsexual if you're actually trans. I think it makes about as much
sense as saying that bisexual is under the straight umbrella. It's like, no, that's a separate thing. And I think there's beauty
in being separate things. There's beauty in having your own lanes. And my concern is, there's so
much, clearly as we see today, really heated conversations
about trans people that when you start adding
in queer theory, non-binary, it just makes it muddy, and
the people at home, hello, don't know what the fuck
you're talking about. - Here's the thing about a lot of the- - That's true.
- People who identify as non-binary, so to speak. When they do so, they typically
don't medically transition. - Right.
- And when you do so, at that point it's a costume.
- Mm-hmm. - It's gender non-conformity,
right. And so we- - Because they can take this
off. I can't take this off. - Yeah, as Blaire is saying, we look at gender nonconformity,
which used to be okay. You can wear what you want. You can present however you want, but it doesn't make you
something different. You can't, you know, as Blaire was saying, it comes out queer theory,
which is postmodern neo-Marxism, which means that there's no
such thing as absolute truth. They don't believe there's truth. So it kind of erodes the
structure of society, and it's actually really
regressive in a lot of ways because you end up getting it to where it's literally
based off of stereotypes, which we've tried to,
for so long, get rid of. Like, it's okay to be
gender nonconforming male or gender nonconforming female, and that didn't make you non-binary. It didn't make you trans. - When I meet a trans person,
right, like a trans woman, a trans man, there is
an inherent comradery. Like when you, you know,
mentioned, "I can't take this off," part of me almost got
a little bit emotional. I know it's hard to believe
people think I have emotions, but I really do, and because
I saw you in that moment, and I said, "You know what,
we are similar in that way." We may be different in other ways. We don't know each other
very well, but we have that. When I talk to or I'm
around a non-binary person, it doesn't really, you know, click. It doesn't connect because
it is so different. So I think that's inherently, I should be able to see some
semblance of my own issue within that person.
- You're in community. - [Blaire] And I don't when
they're non-binary at all. - And so I have no issue
with non-binary people. I just don't think that we're the same. - Yeah, same.
- And so when, like I was saying before,
like when our acceptance rate has completely been destroyed
because these people are initiating violence in our name, they're gonna self-ID out of the category and then we're gonna be the
ones left holding the bag. - Yeah, it's just, if sex is a binary and you're neither of those,
then you're not trans. - [Blaire] Hello. - I think it would be
really hard for a cis person to truly imagine what
it's like to be trans and what it's like to live
with that and be born that way. And I'm not non-binary and so I really cannot
picture what it would, 'cause I'm a binary trans person. I can't imagine what it's
like to be in between that. But just like how the cis person can't really truly understand that, it doesn't mean that it's not
a thing and it's not real. And I really believe that
we have like, 85 years, like, on this Earth
and like so many people spend so much time being like, sad and uncomfortable in their bodies. And if we were just all comfortable, like, if somebody like wants
to go by a name and like, dress a certain way and they are saying, "This makes me so comfortable,
this is what makes me happy," there is no reason they shouldn't do that. And my God, there is no
reason why we should say, "Well you're not a part
of this 'cause like, this is us and like, this is whatever." Because literally like, we
could all sit here and agree that like, non-binary people are like, not a part of the trans
community or whatever, which is not my opinion,
but we could like... That doesn't like, change anything. Like, there's a whole,
we have a vast community, and I believe that non-binary people are a part of the community. 'cause I have so many shared experiences with so many non-binary people I know. We have very similar
experiences in growing up with dysphoria, with
transition, with anything. And nobody has to do anything. Nobody has to transition in a way they don't want to transition. And yeah, like, let's be a happy family. My God, let's all just be happy. That's my vibe.
(participants laughing) - Yeah, or fight the fight together. - Yeah, like, let's do it.
- Because honestly, like- - We have separate fights,
though. That's the thing. - No, I don't know if it is.
- We're weakening our borders by creating this divide
within our own community. This is so silly. Look, I actually understand
like, a lot of the points that are being made here
from the conservative side because I grew up conservative. I voted, when I was 18, I
voted for fucking Bush, y'all. - Damn!
- Girl. - Like, I was conservative
conservative, okay? - So we're the same age. - So it was not until my later
age that I kind of decided like, you know what, let me be more open to different types of communication, different types of people. I actually talked so
much shit about pronouns like they, them, all this. I was like, "What is this trash?" When it first started really
coming out, I did not disagree. I did not agree with it.
I was like, "What is this? This is stupid. How can you be a them?" Blah, blah, blah, blah.
- You were correct. - And I did the whole
thing. The grammatically... You're interrupting me.
- But you were correct. I'm just saying. I'm agreeing with you. - They asked you not to
comment and you're commenting so if you could stop, that
would be great, thank you. So anyway, as I was saying,
you know, so I changed my mind because I got to spend
time around other people who were non-binary,
who were non-conforming. And I got to speak with them and I got to experience their
life and their experiences. And then I realized
myself, I'm like, "Shit, maybe this is what I've been
experiencing my whole life." Only because I was exposed to it. If I woulda never been exposed to it, I would have never known that this could have been my experience, and I would have lived the rest of my life as a different person,
as somebody who I'm not. And it's funny that you keep talking, that some people keep talking about, "Oh, you need to go through HRT. You need to have surgeries
in order to be trans." That is all garbage. - Another thing I never
said. It's just so crazy. - Again-
- I did. - You're still interrupting
me while I'm talking. This is the second time now.
- You're addressing me. - This is the second time now. - If you can claim someone
said something they didn't say, they should be able to correct
you in the moment, I feel. - Do you feel good now that you
said what you needed to say? - I feel fine.
- Wonderful. - [Blaire] I'm sitting pretty. I'm fine. - So, I mean, sometimes
it's like the power that needs to hold me back because- - I mean, you're appropriating
a medical condition. That's what you're really doing. - I exist. I am proof that non-binary people exist and that it is a thing. And because I'm sitting right
here in front of all of you, all of you, I'm a real person. This is my experience (brushes
mic) just as yours. Sorry. Just as yours is a trans
experience that as a trans woman, as a trans man or as whatever. But I'm not here to
belittle your experience or to tell you that you don't exist. And that's the difference
between you and I, that you're trying to cancel, you. And when I say you, I'm
talking about conservatives. And maybe it is you.
You're part of the thing. You're part of the thing
so why is it not okay? - So here's where I get to interject because there's a lot
of things said about me. - Stop addressing her and
just talk to everybody. - But what is your dysphoria?
- Well, there was something- - [Interviewer] Okay, I'm gonna let you- - Okay, so another complete, I
don't wanna say the word lie, but I guess that's what it is, about what I've said here, right? I never said you don't
exist so we can add that to the long list of things y'all have said I've said that I didn't. We know you exist. You're here. You're not fictitious, right? My point is, you're different than me. And I don't even think you deny that. But yet when I say it,
it's an issue, right? The same way that he said
he can't take that off. You can, right? It's different. At the very least, it's different. And when we have a community that there are so many
categories, demigirl, demiboy, astrosexual, all this shit,
but y'all can't fathom that maybe that would
be a different category than what I am when we
have such different, as you keep saying and everyone
keeps saying, experiences? It doesn't make sense. A bisexual is different than a gay man. - Can I ask you a question? I just actually wanna ask you a question. What is your dysphoria, though? Because gender dysphoria or sex dysphoria, as I would rather call
it, is an uncomfortability between my secondary sex characteristics. Not just what I wear on a daily basis because masculinity and femininity doesn't have anything
to do with being trans. - But that's not true.
But that is not true. You can have dysphoria without having to be dysphoric
about your sex parts. - But what is your dysphoria?
What is your dysphoria? - You can have dysphoria about anything. Straight cis women have dysphoria about their breasts all the time. They get breast augmentation.
- It's not dysphoria. - That doesn't mean, that doesn't mean that I'm not dysphoric
about certain things. That doesn't mean that.
And you don't know my life. You're not in my life. - [Sara] Well, that's why
I asked you a question. - You don't know what I experienced, the different things that
I experienced personally. - I cannot believe that
I grew up as, you know, this five-year-old little kid experiencing just
crippling gender dysphoria, like horrible thoughts,
struggled so much my entire life to be sitting in this room and you're explaining to
her what dysphoria is. - I have my experience.
- It's amazing. - It doesn't mean that
I didn't have crippling- - [Blaire] You got a different experience. - It doesn't mean that I- - You got a different experience. - We all have a different experience. - We all have different experiences. - Which makes us different.
- I know, but we all both not- - [Interviewer] Okay, okay. - It's okay, y'all.
- Different things. That's it. It's that simple.
- Okay, okay. No more comments-
- We don't identify as our gender at birth. - Obviously, I'm not a non-binary person so I can't speak for non-binary
people, but I can talk about what I've been taught
by non-binary people. From what I understand, when it comes to some non-binary people,
sometimes they have to go into the gender binary
for a safety reason, depending on the
environment that they're in. A non-binary person
stepping into this world and dismissing the gender norms
of what people think a man and a woman is supposed
to be like is so powerful. If you don't wanna be mutable
to the times of the expansion of the trans and non-binary
experience, then just say that. I would rather you just say
that you are not willing to move forward, learn
the new terminology, learn the new pronouns that
come with the trans umbrella and the trans experience,
for the most part. And also it's, I'm sorry, one more thing. And also, too, there are non-binary people who have different sexual orientations. Let's also name that too. There are so many layers of nuance that we could really get to
when it comes down to the root of what being non-binary is. - But what's the definition?
- That doesn't make 'em trans. - My big thing when it
comes to, and you know, I agree with a lot of the
things that you just said. I actually love you. I adore you. - Oh, thank you. Right back at you. - But here's the thing,
right? That's not the prompt. The prompt was, "Is it
different?" And it is. Again, when I go out, I can't like, take my beard off, girl. It's not coming off.
- Right. - You know, unfortunately, you know, as much as I hate having facial
hair despite being a guy, you know, like...
- Real. (participants chuckle) - Yeah, like, I can't
go and reshape my body. I can't go and shave my Adam's apple down. I've been on this since I was
15. What if it had gone wrong? - So I have an interesting experience with non-binary myself. As someone who has presented
as a binary trans man, I also don't take testosterone. So for me, especially
throughout my transition, I took testosterone for
a short period of time just to get the beard and the
aesthetics that I wanted to in my transition, and once
I reached those goals, I personally didn't wanna lose my access to being able to give birth to a kid, especially with being
with my wife for 17 years. We've been wanting to have
kids so I wanted to, you know, have a backup uterus, so to speak. And in that process of doing that, I've discovered a lot about
myself and my own identity of what is a man and what is a woman. And for me, when I take
a look at the issue in the conversation, there's
kinda two things happening. Simultaneously, our community
is infighting with each other instead of looking outwardly
at the structural systems that are actually truly
affecting us with laws, politics, access to medical care and et cetera. While simultaneously, we
see that the idea of fitting into the patriarchal
structures, the misogyny, everything that is kind of placed in us, I don't subscribe to that. I mean I, all my life have
been breaking the rules of what gender ideology is
just by my pure existence. I didn't grow up with the idea of knowing what trans was my entire life. I discovered that,
actually, being homeless. I didn't discover that
through some collegiate access to college or influence from others. There was no one around me that knew or that I knew was trans. I discovered that myself. But as I've aged in my transition, 'cause I've been trans for
damn near almost 20 years now, I've discovered my own
fluidity in that area because I actually enjoy
my female side too. - [Interviewer] Doctors are
manipulating trans medical care. - I think there's three
types of doctors out there. I think there are the
ones who absolutely think that they're doing this
for the right reasons. I think that there are the ones
who are absolutely doing it for money, like we saw at Vanderbilt. The people at Vanderbilt literally said, "This is a huge moneymaker." And then I think that there are, I don't know if it's incompetence
or ineptitude or laziness because what we're seeing, not
just in the trans community, we're seeing in society SSRIs
being pushed on patients. Mental health doctors are
pushing so many different drugs without getting to the root issues. - See, I have a interesting
perspective on this. I've been out for 11 years this year. I've been on testosterone
since I was 15 years old. And even looking into it,
I waltzed my little ass up into that doctor's office
and I left on testosterone. He gave me my first shot in
the doctor's office that day. - Oh my gosh. - I was 15 years old.
- Oh! - What if I had been wrong? What if I had been wrong? It
really just is that simple. - I'm joining the convo.
- Wow, nice to see you. - 'Cause I think like, I
don't think it's like a huge, widespread issue, but I
think when we have like, a for-profit healthcare
system, it does happen. Like, I feel like there are doc... I believe that people should be evaluated and go through tests, and like for me, getting on testosterone
and getting surgery was a massive process in my life. But I do think that it probably
happens, just like you said, like with SSRIs and stuff. Like, things are overprescribed. - So, I do think it's a massive issue. I think that society in
general, as Sara mentioned, is over-medicalized right now. We're in this weird climate where there are entire political movements behind if you do or you
don't have a vaccine. You can't enter this building
if you do, you can if you do. You know, it's like, crazy. But you know, when it
comes to the trans issue, I think just the fact that there were really
almost no detransitioners as recent as like five, six years ago, and the fact that it's exploded now shows that it is a massive issue. And you know, I think that
I can reflect what you said. I was over 18 when I started my hormones, but I had a 20-minute appointment. And just like you, I walked in and out with an estrogen prescription. Insane. I wasn't tested for my levels. - I didn't have to see a therapist first. - No.
- I had no letter. - And you were a child.
- I was a child. - That's crazy.
- I was 15 years old. - [Blaire] And that is
a very, very common- - In one of the most conservative
states in the country so if that's what's going on in Georgia- - Wow, wow.
- Damn. - I can't imagine what's
going on everywhere else. - [Blaire] California, hello. - Yeah, when I went for
my initial appointment, I literally helped my doctor find gender dysphoria on his chart and mark it for me.
- Oh, that's insane. - And I walked out with
my prescription that day. - Yeah, I mean, 'cause I do a lot of work with the detrans community,
and the problem is, is I actually don't really
care too much about, you know, if you are an adult and you
walk into a doctor's office and want estrogen and you walk out, I don't think that's an issue. What is an issue is when doctors are not giving all the information, when they're actually telling you that this is what's right
for you and then it's not. They're actually
manipulating their patients. They're manipulating, you know, they say, "If you don't do this,
you're gonna kill yourself" and all this stuff. So I would actually rather a doctor say, "I have no idea what
this is gonna do to you, but it's your body, your choice. You can do what you want." And then leave you on your way and you can make that decision. - Right.
- Right. - I think they're not
asking the patient why. Why do you feel this way?
It's a simple question. - Another thing I was never
informed of, you know, when I started my hormone
journey and now it seems, you know, like common sense,
but I was, you know, 20. So it's like, you know, even 20 year olds can have oversights. No one told me I had to freeze my sperm. - That's crazy.
- So- - And we need to talk about that. - I'm years into estrogen. I reach the point of adulthood where you maybe meet a partner where that might be
something you wanna do. And I learned that I can't and it's simply because that
doctor didn't care to tell me. And why, who knows? Maybe
it was because of money. It was easier for him or better for him to get me in and out and get that money rather than maybe a
couple more appointments where I'm having to figure out, you know, how to freeze my sperm in the meantime. But a lot of these doctors
are also activists. - They also don't tell trans men that they're gonna go through menopause. - Right, so there's a lot
of issues with trans men. Buck Angel talks about that. - He almost died.
- A lot of issues. Yeah, he almost died.
- He's a friend of mine. Like, yeah.
- Yeah, insane. - [Participant] Y'all take the back. - So I actually almost walked up first because I do feel like the
system is like, pretty broken and there's not enough education, the medical system for doctors to be prescribing all
the things that they do. Again, discussing SSRIs. Like, I was a victim of that myself. And so, you know, I
empathize for those stories. I understand that that does
happen. I'm not negating that. But I think to negate,
you know, medical service to somebody who needs it, who
it might be life or death for just because you feel some type
of way about it isn't right. Like, why do you care what,
you know, little Timothy or Sally are doing or whatever. Like, why do you personally care what... - Well, Timothy and Sally-
- Well, they're children, so. - Are eight and 12 so. - [Interviewer] Okay, sorry,
we're doing no comments. - But we're not talking
about children seven or 12, and this doesn't happen often. Has it happened? Yeah, it
has because that's the thing. It's a big world. Like,
things happen all the time. Things we can't even imagine
happen. It just is a reality. But again, to walk through a door and then close it for other
people to walk through, that's kind of messed up in my opinion so. - So to your point for being
able to receive hormone therapy in the way that you did, I
had a similar experience. I was able to walk in and
get access to hormones, and that system was
set up through advocacy because of what a lot of community
folks are actually facing when it comes to access to
hormones, access to medical care, access to all of these things. So a lot of these nonprofits
actually got rid of a lot of the red tape because for
some individuals like myself who was actually homeless
during my transition process, I would have never been
able to afford access or get through all of those process. Now can I admit that there is
some medical malpractice? Yes. I myself had issues obtaining
testosterone consistently. - Mm-hmm. - You know, for some reason, you know, the script doesn't match up or you gotta get in contact with a doctor. And it was part of the
reason why I chose actually to go off testosterone
because I didn't like the idea of not having constant
access because I was worried about the damage that it
could cause to my body and also because I wanted to keep intact my reproductive rights. From what I have seen when it
comes to these detransitioners from my understanding in
terms of the statistics, trans people are 8% of the population and then the detransitioners are somewhere from one to 8% as well. So all of these laws that are coming in is to affect the entire
community as a broad while the percentages
that were affecting people is so small, while simultaneously,
if we looked at things like in the past like HIV
with things like AZT drugs that were harming folks, those folks went through all of those processes
and learned the research of what it was to
properly take care of HIV through that unfortunate,
horrible, horrific process. - I mean, it was basically chemo. - Yeah, I mean, AZT was killing people and they had no clue what we're doing. Now, unfortunately, because trans people have not gotten access to
medical transition as long, and especially in the
transmasculine community, there's a lot of research
that has not been done. So to a degree, yes, we are Guinea pigs in the shot in the dark,
but just like in the '80s when AZT was being discovered or '90s when it's being discovered, those folks had to go
through that process. And I was given informed consent and understood that when I signed that. - We just don't know because
the studies aren't there, like you said, right? So the problem is, when you talk about like the detransition rate,
what generally happens is there's no follow-up. The longest study that's
been done is five years out. The average detransition happens
between four and 10 years so we're not capturing all of that. Plus, if you haven't had your
primary sex organs removed, you literally stop, you
just stop taking hormones and then you never go
see your doctor again. And so they never follow up and
you just fall off the rolls. So the stats on detransition
is completely false. - So I wanna say something. First of all, I want to
empathize with everyone here when it comes to the healthcare system 'cause it's not always for us. I don't think that doctors
are manipulating trans care. I think they're still
learning about trans care. And to your point, there
is not a lot of research 'cause the research is
still new and fresh. You know, detransitioning is
a thing, but truth be told, detransitioning is
actually rare when it comes to not just wanting to be trans anymore. Now, the underlying factors within that is healthcare conditions, which
I actually heard a trans man who is famous talk about. You know very well. I agree with what y'all were saying because these issues are very, very real. But also I think it's
really because doctors are still learning about our experience. - So I just have to say some things that were brought up
about detransitioners, which I found just a
little bit ironic, right? Because for a community that is 1% or less of the general population,
we can never seem to find it within ourselves
to find empathy for it, even if it is the 1% of our community, which is detransitioners, and for the horrific
medical malpractice, abuse, mental and spiritual
turmoil they go through. It's like, so we want
the rest of the world to say this 1% matters,
but our 1% doesn't matter. That's the first thing. The second thing is, it's
not as if they detransition because of, just like you said, the loosening of all the
restrictions to get on these drugs. It's like, that's not a good thing. Gatekeeping is a good thing. Like, making sure the right people are getting on these drugs
so there aren't regret cases, there aren't botched cases, that's what we have to go
towards because right now we're going down the slippery slope of, anyone can get on it. Every single person here,
I'm pretty sure, just stated that they went in and walked out in an hour or less to get their hormones, and that's a huge problem.
- Not everyone. - Especially a child. - Because of things that
have happened to me- - Yeah, at 15. That's crazy.
- I can see a future where transitioning for adults is banned. Like, I can because of everything
that's going on with kids. - I think most of us are against
a ban on stuff like that. Obviously-
- Yeah, obviously, but... - We're all sitting here for a reason. I think I had the common ground, though, 'cause everybody here
kind of also admitted that we don't have the research. - Correct.
- And so when we don't have the research, and I'll
tell you, I think that adults can do what they want, but I
think we don't push forward with transitioning children
until we have the research. We do the research, and this is actually what
Genspect pushes as well. Genspect organization, they
push to get more research on it so we absolutely know what this does because even the WPATH guidance, the latest guidance from WPATH, everything that it says
even about puberty blockers, it cites a study and then
it says, "We don't know." - To your point about gaining research, how do you expect the medical
community to gain access to research if we're just
preventing these folks to actually go through
any of the processes to learn the scientific
method of what is happening? Just like with AZT drugs where we learned that that was actually harming us, and now we have things like BIKTARVY. - Yeah, so it's the same way
as we have with any research. You have a very select,
very heavy gatekeeping crew that you're allowed to, you know, create these studies around. And you need a good checklist to be like, these people show all the actual
signs of gender dysphoria. They are having like, very
strong distress, you know. And every state that's passed
bans on access for minors also has provisions except
for in the most extreme cases to conduct studies on. - [Interviewer]
Gender-affirming transition is suicide prevention. (footsteps tapping) - Look at our unified front. - I mean, obviously it's a
known thing that trans youth are at greater risk of suicide
and just suicidal ideations, which are horrible and will plague you and like, ruin your
life and make it awful. And so I know there are a
lot of kids in a lot of pain. And growing up as a trans
kid, I was in so much pain, and I feel like I could have
been spared of a lot of that and gotten to enjoy my life a lot more if I had earlier access
to gender-affirming care. And even the gender-affirming care that I did receive later in my
life, and I went on hormones when I was like 16 and
I got top surgery at 17, that completely changed my
life in the most dramatic way. And so yeah, I think
it is life-saving care, and I think a lot of
trans people would agree. - I agree as well, too. I think gender dysphoria is a real thing, and we all deal with gender
dysphoria differently. I know for myself or whatnot, there were times I wanted to end it all. And for me, I went to desperate measures to align my body with
how I feel on the inside. And for some of us, especially
living in the South, we don't always have
access to hormone care so some of us have to
go to the black market. We have to do things to our
body to be able to align us to where we are not
willing to commit suicide. I don't think gender, I don't
think that's the only way. I think there are other ways
as well, too, but honestly, sometimes people just
want somebody that cares, that wants to listen
as part of the regimen to being able to prevent suicide. - I've chosen to not medically transition in my bottom half, let's put it that way. And this is the first time I'm actually saying this out loud, but I am having facial
feminization surgery and- - I've had it. - That was an incredibly
ridiculously difficult journey, even as an adult who has a really good job and access to really great healthcare. But I still had to go through
so many, so many hoops, and I was still denied by insurance. And in my own personal life,
I've also struggled quite a bit with mental health and,
you know, a lot of that really relates to
certain parts of my body. Like, I always hated my
body when I was younger and I didn't understand why. And you know, and I was
always dressing, you know, as like a cis male and
I just had all this, this stuff just didn't fit. It just didn't feel right, and it was just like
this darkness in my life. Like I just wanted it, you know, gone. And I just learned to live with it. But then eventually, like, you know, after figuring out who I am and all that, like, now I know like,
this is lifesaving care. Like, this for me is lifesaving care. Like who knows where I
could be in a few years had I not known who I am
and had access to care. (dramatic tones resound) - How y'all doing?
- Hey, you guys. - No. - I think too often we hear, you know, that if we don't affirm
our child's, you know, gender identity that's
different than their sex, then they're going to commit suicide. We hear this all the time, especially from the detransition community whose parents were told this
and it was manipulative. We hear politicians say this all the time when they're trying to, you
know, stop bills or pass bills. The problem with that is that's the same line that abusers use. So when you're in a relationship, if you're going to leave
somebody and they say, "If you leave me, I'll kill myself," then that is an abusive
situation and it's not, you know, so that's the premise we start with. Transition, I mean,
we're all here, we know. Transition is not an easy process. It takes a heavy mental toll. And so I really think that
if you're already suicidal, you have to get that in check. You have to be in a healthy
place before you can even think about going through the
medicalization of transitioning. You can socially transition. I
think that's absolutely fine. But I think that, you know, before you even think about
medically transitioning, then I think you have to have
your head right before that, and hormones will make you
feel kind of crazy anyways. So I think that that's
why, yeah, it's not. - Crazy. - See, when it comes to
gender-affirming care, I appreciate everything that gender-affirming
care has done for me. And I thank God every day that this was the right decision for me because I have friends like Ritchie who, it wasn't the right decision for and now he's missing genitals so, you know, when it comes
to it being lifesaving, the reason I didn't step forward, even as somebody who might
agree with that prompt is because correlation is not causation. - Hm.
- What do you mean by that? - Just because something
is related to another thing does not mean it directly causes it. - Okay. - There's a little thing called a self-fulfilling prophecy, right? And sometimes when we create a narrative, it can kind of take on a life of its own. So I know there's a lot of
talk about suicide statistics in the trans community, and interestingly, almost all of those statistics come out of LGBT activist organizations who have an incentive
to put those numbers out to portray this image that
we are suffering greatly, we're under attack, and then
all of those suicide rates are due to societal mistreatment. And when these kids are
being told, like you said, when they're going into these doctors, the doctors are telling their parents essentially emotional blackmail. They're saying, "Trans your
kid or your kid's gonna die." And they say it in front of the child, and they set up this false dichotomy as if those are the only
two options moving forward. And here to tell any child
feeling any type of way, those are not your only two options. In fact, there is a vast
array of options in between and around suicide and transition. Therapists and doctors aren't
even legally allowed to say, "No, you're not trans. You're actually experiencing A, B, or C." And that's the case with
detrans people as well. They have this huge host
of issues, depression, body dysmorphia, anorexia,
eating disorders, maybe sexual abuse in their past. People don't know that a
symptom, a long-observed symptom of sexual abuse is wanting to be the other gender to cope with it. - So I- - This has been in textbooks
forever so I just think... I'll wrap it up really quickly. I just think it's a false dichotomy that it's either death or transition, but with that said, I agree with you. I appreciate everything that
transition's done for me, but it's too much of a roll of the dice and I think it's unhealthy telling people, "Do it or you're gonna
die," especially a child. - So for the LGBTQ organizations,
we also have to remember that they are relying
on reputable resources, and a lot of those reputable resources are the medical research
that has been put out there. So all they can do is
take that information and be able to disseminate
that into the community. And-
- To be quite honest with you, hold on just a second, to
be quite honest with you. And let's also be clear
that these researchers are also collaborating
with these organizations because they are the ones
that have the most outreach to the community that they need to serve. - Yes.
- Which is the trans community because oftentimes the reason why nonprofit grassroot
organizations are created in the first place is because
there was no place for us. And so it is really hard
to get that research to be able to do that. We can agree to disagree, but the research has not
been completely fulfilled yet because a lot of these people don't even know about our experience. And that is why it's important that we make it very
clear what we need to do. - There's also, speaking of the numbers that come out of LGBT
activist organizations, there was a little number
that the life expectancy of a trans woman was 35. That was rescinded a couple
years ago after like, over a decade of that being like, just factually, you know, shared. And I always thought that my life was statistically gonna end at 35. So, but those numbers were based on, by those organizations, prostitute deaths. So it's not always the
most reputable numbers they're getting, you know what I mean? And these activist organizations
are political, too. We get caught up in calling them activists and we think it's this
emotional spiritual thing, but they are political organizations. - Yeah, so I am an activist, and so a lot of what you're talking about really was focused more
on Black trans women because Black trans women do
not live past the age of 35 because oftentimes it is our group within the trans community
that is often murdered. We're often harassed. We're
often discriminated against. And so a lot more of that focus
has had to be around Black, brown, Indigenous folks because oftentimes the research goes missing for us. - They sourced it from
prostitutes, though. That was the source of the stat. - But see, the thing is though, even when we talk about prostitutes, trans women have to sometimes participate in sex work to survive. - But they based it off cis
prostitutes. Sorry, I'm done. It was just, it was false number. - So from what I understand
is, a lot of that focus has always been around Black trans women because we do not get
to see the age of 35. You are in a place, when I say privilege, you're in a place of privilege where you do not have to
worry about the harassment and the discrimination that I face, I face as a Black person,
I face as a Black person. - We're not gonna get into that. - I'm not gonna say that you do not experience
harassment or discrimination. That's not what I'm saying. Because like you said,
you're a person of nuance. And so follow me here. When I come as a person of
color, as a Black trans woman, you and I do not get to
have that same experience. - You went to the White House. I didn't. - There are more rooms
that you get to walk in that I will be forbidden in. And one thing about it is,
that's why it's important, like, someone like me has
to create her own space to be able to counteract-
- So did I. - What you're doing, and I'm not saying- - So did I.
- And I'm not saying that you don't, but
what I'm saying here is, what I'm trying to get
you to understand is, my Blackness should not have to pay for your whiteness that is destroying- - That doesn't even make sense. - My community because of privilege. - I'm destroying your community? - [Interviewer] Okay, stop there. - So are you gonna tell
all of my exes that? - How are you gonna say that
and then that's the end? - What you're talking about, too, is there's not the research. You're right, there's not. Everybody likes to cite the Turban study, and Jack Turban is a complete activist. You can just go to his Twitter account and see how actively
involved he is in this and how financially- - I'm sorry, what was his name? - Jack Turban.
- Okay. - And you can see how much
he's financially gained off of this study. And the issue is, is the
study is based on a survey, and so it's based on a survey of adults. And so when you're doing a, one, surveys are not
scientifically accurate. They're the least accurate
way to do a study. And so when we're basing
all this medical care off of a survey, it's a huge
issue, and it doesn't serve, you know, it doesn't really... And that's what they're
citing to prove that, you know, gender-affirming
care reduces suicidality. - My question is, if
they're using a survey in terms of how they're gathering
data, what do you suggest, then, to use a tool then to gather data? Because from my understanding,
a lot of those surveys are actually more accurate because folks are actually not in front of somebody so they're more comfortable
to answer these questions. Again, we can have a
difference of opinion, but what tool, then, do
you suggest folks to use if they're not using a survey then? How do you gain that data? - Well, you're talking to
therapists who can speak, not, they can't violate HIPAA, but they can give statistics
on their patients. You can look and see how
many people have entered into facilities because
they were suicidal on that. And then you can go back and see, if we gave these same people
gender-affirming care, how did it help them? 'Cause I see a lot of, again, go back to the detransition community because we affirm their gender so much, there's so much, you know,
they're now having issues. They're, you know, contemplating suicide at a higher level as well. - [Interviewer] Great. - I enjoyed this debate for what it was. You know, it was quite
ugly at certain points, and I wish that it was all
trans people on the panel because that would have
been more appropriate. - No, I can't.
- Wow, you're so offensive. You're an offensive person.
- Okay. - Human being, yeah.
- Okay, okay. - Just so you know.
- Well, I find a lot of things over here offensive as well. - Oh wow. Yeah, you're disgusting. - And I have to, trust me, the
feeling is more than mutual. But I will say that it
was very enlightening, and I hope to be back at Jubilee soon. - I definitely think this was interesting. Obviously, I don't think we
have a lot of common ground on a lot of things, but
I think we found some. I think what most conservatives
in general believe is, as an adult, you can do what
you want with your body. I talk to conservatives all the time. We don't allow children to
make decisions for themselves on a wide range of issues. And that's why we don't let them, you know, mutilate their bodies. - I mean it was, yeah, like, it was educational, enlightening. I got to learn a lot and
it's nice meeting all of you. - I liked hearing the
different perspectives, and I feel like even though I'm like, definitely in my beliefs, like, I understand where things come from. I just do not agree saying that everybody on this panel is not trans. I think it's bullshit. And I think you're trans and
you're a part of my community. - Thank you.
- Yep. - I really appreciate it.
- Yep. - I, despite all of the madness, enjoyed conversation with all of y'all. I love debates. We don't have to agree with each other, but these conversations
need to continue happening because they're not
happening anywhere else. And so until we're all creating
more platforms around this for ourselves so other people
can understand, then you know, let's keep at it.
- Yeah. - I mean, honestly,
regardless of my interaction with Blaire here today, we
are all, for the most part, I think mostly in an echo
chamber in our own lives. So it's nice, actually, to be
in front of all these people, especially the ones who don't
see the things the way I do because it also opens my
eyes to see, you know, like, maybe I could rethink X, Y, Z or maybe there's
something I learned today. I'm not closed off to
learning something new or to changing my mind
because I've done that before and I can do that again, and I
will evolve as a human being. - All I have to say to
the general public is, start thinking of reasons why you supported doing this to kids. - Hello. - And to that point...
(participants laughing) - Come on, Shane.
- In conclusion. - It's just, I'm hoping that folks will be able to understand
why the activism is there and what it is because generally
there may be mistakes made in that light, but at the end of the day, we are, as trans people, trying
to gain access to society in a healthy, safe way and also
see a future for ourselves, which is something that I never
had access to with the way that I grew up and a lot of that ideology of not being allowed to
do things when I was 18, even though I knew exactly who I was. (lively music) - [Interviewer] Wrap
it it up and walk off. (lively music continues)
(footsteps tapping)
