- The only thing that I could think that justifies being a feminist
today is you must just want to get laid. There's no reason to believe
in all of these crazy things that seek to strip you
of your masculinity, perpetuate these terrible ideas that men are evil and all these things. That has to be the reason. (upbeat music) - [Female] Step forward if
you agree with the prompt, women have it easier
than they think they do. - Oh. - With feminism, it's
kind of brainwashed women to think that they are
victims in 99% of cases, and all the disenfranchisement
that they would claim in colleges and careers. A lot of these careers
are way easier to get into for women than they are for men, because they're looking to
hire women because of feminism. - Yeah, like in divorce and stuff, they get more property, the kids' rights, all that.
- Yeah. - But more so, I think that from the jump, actually have it easier.
- [Donovan] Yeah. - Like men need to be a provider. They're taught to be tough. "Oh, why are you crying? Don't be a girl." But when a girl is
crying or a girl is upset or anything that happens, usually, they're princess
and they're given the world. - Well, yeah, 'cause with women, they're born with their value. They innately have value. - Right.
- They can create life and they're extremely valuable from birth. - Right.
- For men, it's not really the same way. You have to make something of yourself to be respected.
- Exactly. Like a pretty woman can go
far just using her face, a man can't do that. A man can't go to a rich businessman or like a businesswoman and be like, "I'm good looking. Let me come to your yacht.
- Right. - A woman can.
- Right. - [Female] Let's bring
the disagreers forward. - I have a quick question. Just a second ago you were saying that a pretty woman could
go onto a rich man's yacht and that would be kind of her ticket on, right?
- Yep. - Okay, so did that help women
vote at all being pretty? - But what does that to do with-- - I'm just asking because
I mean, when we're talking about women's lives being
better than they think they are, would you rather be pretty
and be able to get on a yacht or have your liberties? - What are we living
in, like 1950s or 2022? They already have the right to vote. - They have the right
to vote for a long time. I think something you
specifically said shows to me why women don't have it easier. I think it was you who said
women already have their value, their value is already obvious because they can have children. I don't wanna put you into box, but there are large amounts of men. Women are people that have children and then they raise the
child and they be quiet. That is the problem.
- Not at all. - And I think what was really evident to me when both of y'all
came up and talked was, how indoctrinated into the
patriarchy you are, right? You both come up and say, "As men we have to prove something." And those expectations that you put on yourself is a direct
result of patriarchy and the system that feminism
is trying to dismantle. (murmurs) - As are the values that women
have that when they're born that you're talking about? Women did not create those-- - [Donovan] Right.
- Men did. - Those are God-ordained. Men and women are both equal under God and then valued as human beings. In Genesis, you have a
creation of both men and women that are made in God's image, so-- - We're not about to quote the Bible in like some feminist topic.
- Hold on, I mean we can. - We're operating in a country where there's a separation
of church and state. You cannot use religion as a motivation you need with legislation. If I hear one more person use religion as a reason to not give rights to people, probably, gonna fucking explode. People using their own personal ideologies as an excuse to implement legislation, over other people's lives, are simply just not okay with the fact that they can't control
everything around them. - Back to the prompt. I mean, I don't think that women have it easier
than they think they do. And I think to just make
blanket statements like, women in society think they have it easy or men in society have it harder. Whatever you wanna say, I
just think it's kind of naive. Sure, maybe some women
think they have it easier, but that might not be
because they're a woman. It might just be because of
their own set of life challenges and and vice versa.
- Yeah, and I agree. And one of the reasons that I am so passionately antifeminist is 'cause I believe that feminism
pits men against women. Men and women may be equal today, but they're not the same. But also too, women are under
a pressing assault today in this country. They're losing their ability to compete in sports, beauty pageants-- - Oh boy.
- Also just basic things like that to people that identify as women. And no one is talking about it. Feminists aren't talking about it. So now, you have
conservatives having to fight for women's equality and it's making some sense.
- You're making some pretty, blanket statements saying
feminists don't care about it. And you say, you think that all women just are against the men. - Well, to answer your question, yeah. You're talking about women, women are not all feminists.
- [Cloverse] Yeah. - There are plenty of feminists
who are very anti-woman. You know, you saw it
during in the political era where you have people who
will attack Kayleigh McEnany and Kellyanne Conway because
they aren't pro-women, they're not for the girls. - So you, and--
- [Female] Actually, we have like just a little bit left. I haven't heard Kevin yet. - Yeah, when you talked about
the pressures of being a man and having to provide and
having to prove your value as a man, I think those are
real challenges that men face. That's why women have it harder too because they are also being impacted by how aggressive men
feel like they need to be to be able to secure the role that they have to play in society. But the reality of today is that because of the systems that we're in, the patriarchy is negatively
impacting not only women but also men. - [Female] There's no wrong reason to get an abortion. - So, I'll just center the conversation, around the very fact that, you know, we're a group of eight men,
the optics of eight men in a room talking about when
women do and don't deserve to get an abortion. It's a bad look. - That's right.
- So like, for me, from a personal standpoint, you know, I have a girlfriend. There might be some
reasons on a personal level where her and I having
that conversation together, I might say, "Oh, I
think we should do this. I think we should do that." On a legislative level, I
don't feel confident enough to legislate when someone
is and isn't allowed to get healthcare.
- [Quinten] Yeah, right. - 'Cause that's what abortion is. It's healthcare.
- Yeah. One of the paramount
ideologies of, I guess, being "Male feminist" is just the ability to mind your own business.
- Right. - Just to be able to say that this is the wrong
reason to have an abortion. You're already headed down the wrong path. - [Josh] Yeah.
- So being an antifeminist, I look at this and I say, well, I am more religious as well-- - Yeah, so am I.
- So I want to say like, I'm more like pro-life, right? But if a woman decides that
they wanna not give birth, it doesn't matter the reason. You know, maybe she's not wealthy enough. Maybe the father left her, you know, there's so many reasons. And then I also look at
like just gun violence and how we're birthing
kids and we raise them and send them to school knowing
that it, it can get killed. I don't know, I would feel like-- - It's not the best world to be raise child in.
- Exactly, exactly. - I think, a patriarchal element, even in your answer, not
to combat or what have you, the idea of trying to cycle
through the reasons why, and going, "Yeah, I
guess those make sense," is still, in my opinion, patriarchal. - Even though I was on the
feminist side on that topic, it feels like I was put in a position where I was framed as wrong. It felt like you aren't
allowed to have this opinion on this topic 'cause you're not a woman. And I think that's kind
of bullshit to be honest. - Off the top of my head, I know that was mentioned earlier that abortion is healthcare. And I first want to push back on that abortion is not healthcare. Healthcare preserves life, it protects it, it doesn't take it away. It doesn't eliminate it. - [Josh] What about the woman's life? - But when you exterminate
a child that is doing harm, that is not healthcare. - Oh, but it's not always a child, right? It's a discussion when it
becomes a child or not. That's not a gray area, that's not a lie. - It is actually scientifically proven. It is a separate strain
of DNA at conception. If you ask any doctor--
- But if you took that clump of cells out, would it survive? - [CJ] Well, we are all clump of cell. - It's not a clump of cells, that's why you call it a termination. Scientifically, it is a life at birth-- - [Tucker] At birth.
- And scientifically, it is-- - Did you just hear?
- I'm sorry, at conception, at conception.
- It is a life, but it is not a human. - So look, though, the thing is, so and you say, it's about protecting life. Abortions are protecting
lives of thousands of women who maybe are not able to help-- - At the expense of another life. - But you are already prioritizing that other life over the
woman who's carrying that. (murmurs) - It' because of patriarchy--
- That's why you're doing it. - Because of patriarchy you're
all basically saying that. - So, what if we're
aborting a female baby? - See, these souls are more
important than the woman-- - I think, it's absolutely shameful how flippantly our society has begun to treat the topic of abortion. You are literally
exterminating an unborn child, that is wrong, that is wrong.
- To protect the life of another woman. - Then don't have sex without protection. - Really, you don't have sex without protection.
- Then get contraception. - You don't have sex without protection. - Okay, well I don't have a baby. - [Quinten] Tell me, what they can do. - I don't have a baby. - [Quinten] Yeah, tell
them what they can do. - Stop absolving women
and men of responsibility and treating grown ass people
like they are children. - Again, we're not emphasizing
any of those things. We're going straight to women-- - [Tucker] Right.
- And making it their problem. - Exactly. - Well, it's a man's problem as well because if a man gets a woman pregnant, that is his child as well. So, one of the things
that's really important, and what abortion does is it
puts all of reproductive rights in the hands of women. When it takes both parties. (murmurs) She cannot have a child without a man. Abortion normalizes
women making bad choices. We've kind of given a free pass for people to be a lot more carefree about who they sleep with
and not really think twice about the ramifications
that may come of it. (murmurs)
- Once again, we're talking, we're zooming in on a high
level on the end result. We're not talking about
the systemic issues that cause women to have abortion. Hold on, hold on! We're not talking about
the lack of resources that make people feel like
they cannot sustain a pregnancy or sustain a life.
- [CJ] Right. - And those are things that are caused by the way men have set up society. So instead, hold on, hold on, so instead of talking
about the actual issues from the top down and going the whole way, we go to the most
oppressed person involved and make it their fault. - [Female] Mansplaining
is overly criticized. - I frequently come across videos online where a man will respond back
to a broad generalization about women, and they'll be like, "Oh, you're just mansplaining it," as if men aren't allowed to have a voice in the conversation. And I think that the term itself, it's just not really defined. - And mansplaining is just not real. - [Clarkson] Yeah.
- Like it literally, is a man explaining something and these people get angry about it. Like that's the reality of
the times in which we live. And it also, it hurts the ability of men to have conversations with women, because you think, "Oh wow,
if I explain this issue to her and I'm gonna be accused of mansplaining or I'm gonna be accused of being sexist because I don't think she understands it," it's toxic and it hurts
women, it hurts men. And it's just not a way for us to have a functional society.
- And at its core, it's completely hypocritical
because the feminist plight is that women need to have a voice and they're being told
they can't have a voice, and then they turn around
and do the exact same thing and say, "You're a man explaining me. You shouldn't have a
voice about this topic because you're a man." - And we're targeted
because of our identity, and no one cares about it
because we're supposedly "In positions of power." So we don't get to be victims. - Yeah.
- We don't get to say, "Oh, you should feel bad
for us because we're men." So we don't get to have the luxury of having the benefit
of the doubt of society or the media or any of those things. And it's a shame, it's a shame. - [Cloverse] Right, yeah. - I'm gonna speak about mansplaining from a different perspective 'cause you guys are talking
about controversial topics. I'm gonna talk about it from just like a day-to-day perspective. In my relationship with my partner, how I try to be really
mindful of mansplaining is, when she is sharing her struggle, I think, a tendency that
can be conditioned in me through just how men dominate and wanna have to solve
problems and all that is, I wanna jump in and just solve it, and try to explain what's happening here, and try to question her experience, and be like, "Hey, well
did you think about this? Did you think about that? Well, I see this." That inherently in itself
comes off as mansplaining because what is the counter to mansplaining is
actually getting consent from the other person. How do you wanna be supported? Do you want me to support
you and listen to you or do you want me to help solve problems? - Mansplaining is also, not just having a man having an opinion. - Right.
- That's not the situation. The idea is when a man
interjects an opinion that he either is not fully educated on or does not have the appropriate empathy to be able to talk about. - That's what I'm saying. Who qualifies that? Yeah, exactly.
(murmurs) - That's my issue is that-- - Then feel free when a woman does that to say you're a womansplaining. I don't think that (murmurs) - That doesn't fix it.
- There's a reason that term doesn't exist, because you're not allowed to do that towards women in society today. - If you did that, it would be just fine. - [CJ] You just admitted.
- It would be just fine. - I think the difference is though, if that were to happen to men, it wouldn't quiet our voices
to be in completely unheard. My wife is a physics and math teacher. If she has the answer to a
question in a staff meeting, she's gonna have to be louder than the men in the room because that is the way society has
conditioned people to operate, especially, in male dominated spaces. - [Clarkson] Yeah.
- That's what mansplaining is. I have one more question. Is it about the word? - Yeah, that's what I feel (murmurs) - Y'all have a lot of problems
with lot of these languages. - When you say mansplaining--
- Yeah. - You have to understand
that subconsciously we're already creating
a divide when really, a woman can mansplain by definition the way you
guys are explaining it. - Yeah.
- And that's just as wrong as if a man does it, so why is it called mansplaining? Why isn't it just disrespectful? - Yeah, exactly. - So, when your life is not at stake, when you're not being attacked, I think, you can focus on language. When you're not at risk of being-- - You live in us, dude, that doesn't matter. - Men are attacked every single day. - Women are attacked more. - But I think from a societal standpoint, you guys talk a lot
about social conditioning and how women feel uncomfortable. But don't you think this narrative that you're saying right
now is contributing to that, telling women that they
should be scared when they're in an environment full of men, telling women that they are oppressed, they are this, they're that, by telling women they're less than them. - Let me respond to that. They're not telling them that. They're validating the fact
that that's the reality, right? - [Female] Women should be encouraged to be financially independent of men. - I think this one's a no-brainer, right? I believe that men and women are equal, they're just not the same. And I think with that equality
comes equal responsibility to be able to provide for yourself. And when I think about what
could provide "Oppression" if that were to exist would be this idea that they were tethered to
men to live their lives. I think if you remove that tethering, then obviously women are free
to do whatever they please and exit very bad situations. You know, one of the
most unfortunate stories that you hear so often is
that so many women are forced to live in very dangerous circumstances, because they don't know
who's gonna provide for their child if they leave. They don't know who's gonna
provide for them if they leave. And so, I think financial independence for anyone is always just a good idea. - Yeah, I wanna speak about
this through a different lens. I think, it should be like, women should be empowered to
be financially independent. Encouraged versus empowered
takes a different sense of support speaking to how
men feel the need to provide. Sometimes when a woman
makes more than a man, men can feel like they're less of a man, because the woman is
taking more of the boss and provision kind of like
role in the household. So, I think that it's important
to be able to equip women with being able to feel
like they are empowered, and that is a feminist thing because it is breaking
the gender norms of like, what is masculine and
what is feminine role? - Yeah, I also think
it is important though in this conversation
to recognize the women that don't want to be financially
independent in a marriage. You know, there's a lot
of women in our country that enjoy being mothers, and I think being a mother is is one of-- - Incredibly valuable.
- Yeah, exactly. And that doesn't necessarily mean that they're stuck in their situation because they're doing
something very valuable by sacrificing that freedom in order to raise our next generation. - They're just giving a choice, right? - And their their love, is their labor, right?
- Exactly, right. - Their love is their labor in their home. - Okay, I have a few different thoughts. One of them would be the
importance of the family. I think women should go out
and be financially smart, and know how to make money and be able to make money for themselves. But being independent of
men leaves this notion of that you can never trust a
man or that men are unsafe. And the problem that this
brings is in the family. I think--
- Can I ask you why? - Hold on, I'm just gonna
finish my thought, I'll explain. With the nuclear family, you have, and this is for both men and women, they're the most happiest when they're in that kind of dynamic. And to your point about marriages where women makes more than the man, that's one of the biggest
indicators of divorce. And I think there is a societal and honestly, God-given
responsibility for men to provide. So, when men are told that, "Women are gonna
be independent of you," you're stripping away
a lot of their purpose and responsibility to
be caretakers of women to provide for women. I would also say that the
biggest group of people that are on antidepressants,
and it's one in four, are women that are 40, have a career and have no family and no kids, which is the real meaning
of life is community, family and relationships. - Can I respond to one
specific thing you said which is the demographic of women over 40 taking antidepressants? And you're using that as proof that they're the most depressed group. Men just kill themselves. - [Donovan] Yeah, because of-- - So like with all the men
that have killed themselves, if they didn't do that
and were still here, men would predominantly be
more depressed than women. - That's a complete--
- There's no basis, yeah. - Men statistically kill themselves more. - But we're talking about two completely
separate different points. (murmurs) - I think, he's just saying that that statistic is a little bit difficult to process because--
- I'm saying, it's out of context
because the men that get-- - There's other factors. - Yeah, there's other factors. - There's always gonna be other factors, but that's a clear indicator
that women at some point, whether they started wanting a career, will eventually want to fall into a role of being a
mom, having children. Because that is what women
derive the most happiness from. - You got a lot of studies
and stats over here, which is cool, but like, when we're talking about financial literacy
and financial freedom, there are a lot of women
that have the ability that decide to step back,
all those types of things. None of that has to be taken away or omitted in order for
them to be empowered. People should be able to
do in their households what they wanna do. - [CJ] Right.
- [Donovan] Right. - I don't think anybody's trying to take that option away from women. I think y'all think people are, but I don't think that's really happening. - But they are, but they are. We see that in society today. People demonizing women for
choosing to stay at home. Female empowerment also
means empowering women again to make the choice that fits them, their choices and what they want to do. It is just as powerful,
just as influential, just as important as a choice to make, to raise your kids at home if
that is what you want to do, and also be the CEO of Walmart if that's what you choose to do. We can empower women to be girl bosses, whatever you wanna say.
- What do you mean bosses? - Would you empower a male friend if he told you that he
was going to quit his job to be a full-time stay-at-home father? (murmurs)
- Absolutely. - Passion, buddy. - No, that's good. I just wanna make sure because like you're only
defending women who get demonized for doing this and you're
not advocating for men to want to step up and do that too. You're only-- - Because most men don't want to. - Why not, why don't you want to? - Because they don't want to. - Because they just don't want to. It's a choice.
(murmurs) - Are you pro-choice or
let pro-less choices. - This is a trap. This is a trap. - What do you mean by that? - Are you pro-choice or
are you pro-less choice? - When I asked him why
he doesn't encourage men, he said, "Because they
don't want to do that." So then why is it a problem if women don't wanna be stable? - Because it's about choice.
(murmurs) - It's women's choice too. - I'm not encouraging to say no. - He never said that. - I'm saying that they have a choice and I'm not for taking
choices away from women. You may be, I don't know. I'm--
- [Female] All right, reset. Period pain is exaggerated. Okay, I'm glad no one
stepped forward for that. (all laughing) - I'm gonna change my mind. (murmurs) - Yeah.
- [Female] All right, next prompt. Innocent men suffer because of feminism. - So I think today in 2022, feminism has changed drastically, and I think it's really turned
into demonizing masculinity in men while promoting
masculinity in women. And with that, good men are
being pushed the wayside, and pushing parts themselves down and not embracing their own masculinity, because society is telling them that it's wrong.
- 100%. I think, anything that is
deemed masculine is seen as now toxic. And I see it all over social media. You can't really say
anything or do anything, especially, even against
or even for yourself without it being some
weaponized in some way or shape or form.
- [Clarkson] Yeah. - It's a shame that
feminism has become less about actual equality and more about supremacy.
- Right. - Yeah.
- It's not about equal rights, between men and women, it's about women being superior to men, and women don't even
like it anymore, right? I hear conversations with so many girls that are friends of mine. They're like, "I hate
what feminism has become, because it makes me feel
as if I'm a victim." And also to that men aren't
supposed to be men anymore. It almost absolves us
of the responsibilities that we have as males in
society to be providers, to be protectors.
- Right. - And innocent men suffer because
we're made out to be toxic because we're fulfilling our
roles as men in this world. It's absolutely insane. - Yeah, and I mean I disagree a little bit with saying that men have to be providers, but I think, demonizing those
men is part of the problem. - Yeah, you know, I would
disagree a little bit, but I think also too though, what we probably would agree on is that in a society that makes women feel as if they need to be more like men, all you get is really bad versions of men. And when you have men who are
increasingly more feminine, you get men who aren't
being men at all anymore. And I think like that's
a huge societal problem, and we see the ripple effects and the consequence of
that every single day. - When I started hearing y'all talk, y'all have a huge misconception
of even what feminism is. - Well, please explain that. Explain to me that.
- The goal of feminism isn't to demasculate men. The goal of feminism
is to fight for social, political and economic equality for everyone regardless of your gender-- - It is an equality of opportunity
or equality of outcome, because it used to be
equality of opportunity, and that's when I would
say I would be a feminist. - [Josh] But either way-- - And that's become equality and outcome. - But either way what y'all are talking about is feelings.
- Right. - Y'all talking about I don't
like how women make me feel in society about crying,
how women make me, hold oh, hold on, hold.
- Well, the question was about feelings.
- Yeah. - No, hold on.
- It's about our men affect, that's feelings.
- Yeah. - So that's a conversation. - The feminism itself
is not about feeling, it's about like you said, outcome. It's about the wage gap. It's about having access.
- Which doesn't exist by the way, right? But anyways--
- Hold on, hold on, hold on. (murmurs) No, hold on. No, you didn't let me
talk though, hold on. No, you didn't let me
talk though, hold on. - It's about feelings, right? You don't wanna talk about how men feel to talk about how women feel. Let's talk about feminists. - Again, it's not about feelings, period. That's my point.
- How feminists, have turned other women. - Look, can we have the prompt again? - [Female] Yeah, let's
get back to the prompt 'cause it didn't have feelings on. - Exactly.
- It's about? - [Female] Innocent men
suffer because of feminism. (murmurs) - And so, can I pose this question? - But that is still about feminist, right? - On a day-by-day basis, do you think you're negatively
affected by feminist? - 100%.
- Yeah. - 120%.
- I really believe that. - Can you explain to me how on a day by day basis (murmurs) - Because again, masculinity, has this mythical eligibility of power. When someone, feminist, what have you, challenges that, it feels
like oppression to them. It feels like something is (murmurs) it's not challenging. That's my perception.
- Yeah. - Feel free to disagree, but that's what it looks like to me. - And I'm not oppressed, so
I challenge that perception. But also too, to go back to
your point about feminism, that may have been true
with first wave feminism, but with third wave feminism, that is no longer the case anymore. - And I wouldn't even argue because first wave feminism
and third wave feminism-- - [Female] Let's bring
it back to the prompt. And then also just, I
love the ping-ponging, but just make sure we don't
have five people talking on top of each other.
- All right. There's another side to this too. It's the patriarchy. And so that is what you are talking about. It is the pressure to be
strong, the pressure to protect. - But in what ways is our
society a patriarchy today? I know you said value. So I would wanna get clarification on what you define a patriarchy. - So, we should define
patriarchy as a group because I personally, am still having a hard
time defining it today because it is so massive.
- So, we're talking about something that we can't even define. - So, I'll try and define. Do you want me to try and define? - Yeah, let's do it together.
- On a broader spectrum, I'd say patriarchal is
the societal structure that we have set up. That's kind of, what's the word, sociological values of
how we set up a hierarchy in our society. And so it's not--
- And patriarchy is defined by, you know, where men are
in charge and hold power. - Yeah, but I'm not saying, it's a literal thing where
there's some document that somebody wrote where it said, "Men are in charge, women are second." It is a set of sociological values that you see it changing the society. - So we're changing the
definition of patriarchy, which is fine. I just wanna make sure we're on same page. - No, I'm telling you that's
what my definition is. I didn't say there was a set (murmurs) That's how I define it. - So, are you saying we're
not in a patriarchal society? - No, I don't believe we are today. So, the whole idea that our country is an
oppressive patriarchy, it just really gets under my skin because nobody's able to
actually tell me what that is. Well, by definition, the patriarchy would be a society where men have power over women and then women don't have a voice. And in today's society,
that's just not true. Obviously, some people
have power over others, but in our society, that has more to do with
economic status than actual sex. - So going back to the prompt, right? The prompt is, innocent men feel attacked. (murmur) - Suffer (murmurs) - So, if you make a mistake, you should be held accountable to that mistake.
- [Tucker] Absolutely. - Now, with the forms
of internet coming out and communication going everywhere, y'all are talking about feeling attacked for being able to say
certain things are not. - Not attacked.
- If you are-- - I just think that psychologically-- - It does suffer.
- That some innocent men, do suffer from the narratives they push. - But I would also push also suffer. If you're speaking about laws, I think feminism has
changed a lot of laws-- - [Tucker] Like what?
- That now, all are women beneficiaries. So, if you look at divorce courts, if you look at family courts,
if you look at abortion, if you look at a whole host of laws, all of them are women primary, men are heavily affected by those. - So I disagree actually on that. I don't actually agree
on the whole loss stuff, but just going back to the
prompt on the suffering thing, I do think that you have have to be aware that a man can't just go and say whatever they want.
- Right. - Where a female can't.
- Should they be (indistinct) - That is not true.
- Nobody can. - A female can say a
lot more than a man can, especially, online, on social media, on the internet, there's
been a rape threat made and a woman said no one will judge, an eye cancel culture doesn't come in. But if a man said that same thing, they would get canceled immediately. I believe men today are really weak. Mostly, they're lazy and I
feel like there's no courage. I feel like men today are
okay with being losers. And I mean more men need to stand up for what they truly believe in, and I feel like there's not enough. - Back to the prompt too. Innocent men suffer from feminism. I think look at what this entire Johnny
Depp, Amber Heard situation that happened this past year, you have all these feminists rushing to the camp to defend Amber Heard. And then all those things
come out during that trial, and people are like, "Maybe Johnny Depp isn't the horrible guy that we thought he was, right?" So, that is an example of
feminism radicalizing these people to just be like, "I'm gonna be anti-male and I'm gonna go root against this guy." But to the point of the political-- - How is Johnny Depp (murmurs) - [Female] Wait, wait, guys, we have 30 seconds left on this prompt, so just finish your thought. - But yeah, but also to Brett
Kavanaugh, big example there. You have all these allegations that come up when he is going to be the Supreme Court justice that never came up before.
- [Cloverse] Right, exactly. - What did that do as far as enable people who have fake accusations to,
I'm gonna ride the coattails of the Me Too movement and
ruin an innocent man's life. That is wrong.
- Really quick though. Where's Brett Kavanaugh right now? He's on the Supreme Court?
- He's on the Supreme Court. Thank God, because truth won the day. - And then Johnny Depp, was he convicted on the crime? - Because truth won the day. - But that's the point, so yeah-- - He won in spite of feminism-- - There's a pendulum, and
for a really long time, people weren't called out for things. People weren't held accountable. So now, yeah, the pendulum swinging. Maybe there are gonna be
some false accusations and stuff going too far. I would rather have a
million false accusations, like over a million people
that deserve to be in jail, not being in jail. Do you see what I'm saying? - I don't.
- Like I'd rather, people go through false. You'd rather have a million people that are guilty on the
streets than a million people that are not guilty have
to go through a trial. - I would rather have--
- [Female] All right, reset Women are fit to be president. - I mean, really this
is a no brainer for me. - Yeah. - I expected this to be unanimous, but I think this will probably, be the most biggest agreement
amongst the group today. I think that anyone who's born in America, above the age of 35, that's not a felon, you can be president.
- Right. And I think a lot of times,
in these conversations, we focus on the differences
between men and women, but just based off of studies, men and women are very similar creatures. I mean, we're the same species, we think the same on most levels. And to say that a woman
can't do the same job as a man, to me, is completely regressive. Now, I consider myself
an antifeminist today, but this is the type of question that I would be a
feminist for 50 years ago. To me, it should be a unanimous, you know, thing stepping forward. But I look forward to hearing
what they have to say. - I think eligibility and
optimal option is the difference. I think a woman can be
eligible to be a president. I think, is it the optimal situation? No, I would kind of disagree with you where you say men and women
are generally the same. I think we're completely
different in the way that we process information, in the way that we make choices, the way that we build society. Men are very hierarchical in nature, so it's very merit-oriented. I think women are a little
bit more communitarianism or communism, that's what I'm looking for. - Communism.
- Communistic. - You mean community-based?
- Community-based, right. Thank you, where everybody gets one. So you get one, you get one. It's not really based on output, on which I think is good in some cases, but I think in a general scheme of building a structure of government, I would say having it more
merit-based, very capitalistic, where you go out, you
work for your living, you provide for your family. I think that's the way that
men typically builds society. - So even a woman whose
worldview aligns with yours, you don't think that she would
be fit to be president even if her every single view she has. - Right, like I said, she could be fit, but is
it the optimal situation? - No, why would she? So, is the only reason she's not optimal because she's woman.
- I would say it's not optimal because God called men to
be the leaders of society. - So again, you keep going back to God and we keep trying to center Christianity as like the know-all end-all. What about all the religions that had female goddesses
and matriarchal systems? - We also don't have to
sidestep Christianity as if there were not any female leaders in the Bible either.
- Absolutely. - I'm gonna go to the, for my reason why, I
think it was in London, and it's before their
current prime minister, I'm forgetting her name, but she was their mayor
for about two months, and she ran away. She pretty much resigned,
was done with it. And I do personally think that women are more emotional beings. We are not similar. - And that's actually not factually true. There are big differences between us, and those differences are very vast on the spectrum.
- Yes, sort of. - But we are a lot more similar in the way we process information. - I was just trying to
finish what I was saying. I was pretty much trying
to go to the point of feminism has created especially, Western women to be more emotional, more erratical on their decision making and just more emotionally charged. And that's where I brought
up the London thing, where I feel like that's a
good example of that happening where the pressure got to him, resigning is is coward, to
me, like being a coward. - Has a male president ever resigned? - I'm not sure, but Richard Nixon. - So yeah, if I can interject-- - But Richard Nixon was because he was getting put into crime. Like that was a--
- Yeah, so it's double. (murmurs) So if I can interject. So you're kind of using this
one anecdotal evidence of like, "Oh, this one woman got in office." Are you aware of all of history because like literally, men
led pretty much every nation, I'd say about 99% of nations forever. So like yeah, all the good things that have happened from nations, sure, you can attribute that to the men. Every bad thing is also attributed to men. I'm not using this as a argument to say, men are bad and shouldn't be leaders. What I'm saying is, you can point point to any
person that did a bad job and then you can latch onto their gender and say that's a reason why that gender shouldn't do something-- - That's the point.
- It's not a good example. - That's the point.
- It doesn't make any sense. - But I do wanna go back to
you saying a woman as a leader and how some of those
things might not be fit to be president.
- Right. - I think that when we talk about a lot of the
problems men are facing, a woman being president could
actually help some of those, especially, in facilitating a society, we are talking about your
feelings is more accepted. I do believe in a 100%
merit-based society, which is why I believe
that anybody, man or woman, gay or straight, black or white, can be president if they
have the merit to be so. But I think that to say that just because a woman makes some
decisions differently, would somehow have a
negative impact on society, is all just based off of assumption, when it could actually
have a very positive one. - [Female] The gender pay gap is real. - I agree that the pay gap is real, but I don't agree with this
studies that a lot of people use to say that it's solely based
because of being a woman, rather than taking into
account career preference, time taken off, the actual
way you do your job. There's a lot of other variables
that go into these studies and a lot of times I see
the feminist movement say, "Oh, if you're a woman, you're
gonna make less than a man." And it's just a lot
more complex than that. - So, I agree that it's
a nuanced conversation. So, there's like two
things that I wanna put on. My dad, right, do you think my dad
raised my brother and I and my sister the same?
- Obviously, not. No, I would hope not.
- Well yeah, but like in the sense that my dad--
- You're a male and your sister is a woman.
- Pushed me into different things than
he pushed my sister towards. I think women are raised in a way where they're not encouraged
to pursue their interest, and now we're starting
to get to a generation where I think that might happen. But it's gonna take some time. But then, the second one is gonna be that you get what you negotiate. And this is, I can only give
personal experience again, my dad has worked in HR of a company. They offer men more at the
start than they do women, because men are more likely
to negotiate anyways. Women are more likely
to take the first thing that is offered her.
- oh, that's the truth, yeah. - So, and that is the thing where they take advantage of the fact that they know women feel uncomfortable in a male-dominated space. So you are going to get a job interview, you're getting interviewed by a man. Everyone you saw when you walked in for the most part was a man. And then they offer you salary, you're gonna be a little bit
less likely to push back, and that's my personal experience. - But that's not on the
company in that example, that's on the women unfortunately, right? They have to be their own best advocate. They have to stand up for themselves, they have to negotiate better. You look at this issue--
- Will you pay them more? - Yeah.
- Yeah. - But when you look at this issue of the gender wage gap also too, the narrative that surrounds
is absolutely factually untrue. You're looking at the average
income or salaries of men and the average incomes of women. And obviously, there's
gonna be a difference. Men and women choose
to do different things. Like you said, men tend to dominate
higher paying industries, higher paying careers. Women tend to go do other things. - I also think that we also, like there is a level of preservation that is omitted in these
types of conversations. You guys say it's nature, right? I have two daughters. If I push my daughters into
a male-dominated space, brick laying or something like that, who are my kids gonna have to work around? Are they gonna have to
endure a locker room talk? Those are things that are real things that I'm gonna have to entertain and my thought process will not decide where I'm gonna push my child. So, that's why I'm saying, it's not just nature. There are societal--
- No, it's not, I agree. - There are societal things in place that put women at a deficit
when it comes to making money. - If a woman feels
intimidated, that's on her. Like that is on her.
- [Quinten] Exactly. - She needs to fight it. And I don't believe the wage gap exists because you're given the same
opportunity to earn the money. The fact that you don't
fight for your salary or don't fight for the wage
because you feel uncomfortable, it's on you. At the end of the day, it's on you. If you go in and you're applying for a job and you feel intimidated
and then they say, "Oh, we're gonna pay you minimum wage," and you agree to it, when you know you should
be earning like $20 or $30 or whatever, it's on you. You can't cry about it and say, "Oh this is because men dominate." Well, so--
- Wait. Sorry, can I go ahead?
- Yeah, yeah, go ahead. - Okay, so it's on the woman that she feels intimidated, right? That's kind of the paramount.
- Yes. - So then, is that the
same when it comes to like, once you're actually hired
and once you are the energy or the environment that
you work in as well? - Yeah, 100%. - So, the company has no responsibility to make a safe work environment
or anything like that? - I never said that.
- I'm asking you a question. - I said, feeling
intimidated is not the same as being intimidated or
being constantly pushed to be intimidated, you know what I mean? Like, if I were to you and go, "Yo, I'm gonna hit you," or yo--
- No, no, no, I wouldn't say that. The idea that women are tasked
with their own social context and creating the
environments for themselves that they want to operate within, even though they're
continually stripped of power, is infuriating and is disrespectful. It echoed the sentiment of black people keeping themselves down because of the acknowledgement of racism. - I think we'd all agree teachers, nurses, medical professionals, objectively important jobs for the fabric of society.
- In the United States. - And we clearly
undervalue these industries that are women-dominant. Do think that that's just a coincidence? - No, where I would agree with you is, I do think that teachers and
nurses should make more money, but that doesn't factor to the point that there is a pay gap. Because if man goes to be a teacher, he's still gonna get paid
the same amount as a woman. (murmurs) - All right, let's take a job where men and women both participate, like world cups going on right now. Look at the US American men's team-- - Oh my gosh.
- And the women's team. - The men's team is also significantly, more skilled than the women's team and bring in a better audience. - And more people watch it.
- Skilled, how? - More people watch it. Do you think people that play in the WNBA should be making
the same thing as NBA players? - I don't NBA or WNBA players, should be making more than teachers. (murmurs)
- Answer my question. Answer my question. In 2022, women are not victims, but yet we live in a society
that glorifies being a victim, glorifies being oppressed, glorifies people feeling bad for you, when honestly, all it does is again, it provides another
disservice to the people that are these so-called victims. - [Female] I haven't
always understood consent in intimate relationships. - One of the problems is, consent is not always
clearly communicated. And I think that's one of the things that, and has kind of been
weaponized against men. Whether the woman wasn't excited about it or she didn't like the
guy or she was drunk or all these things that they can use to remove their consent
and their responsibility in that they would ruin the
romantic image of that guy if he asked to kiss you or if
he asked to have sex with you at every single point.
- Yeah. - My experience with it has
been a little bit different. As a black kid, I was taught that if you engage in a romance
with a white woman, it's a possibility that she
might falsely accuse you of something.
- Yeah. - So I've always been, I guess, you can say hyperconsensual. What that has done for me is, it has revealed the bullshittery that is all these backdoor cuts that men act like women take
to accuse them of things. It's super possible to
never engage romantically with a woman in a way
that she doesn't want. It's not even hard.
- [Cloverse] Right. - There's enthusiastic consent. You shouldn't wanna feel
like you're talking somebody into something or like, they are "Okay" with it.
- Right. - You have sexual encounters with people that want to have the sexual encounters. - Right.
- That are excited about it. And like that's something
that I do think gets lost. - But to you--
- Oh, one more thing, one more thing, really quick. I know young men that
definitely didn't wanna have sex as much as they were, and they were men, but they feel like they
had to, they don't. And it's like these things, like it's informing young people, like even though you don't want them to have sex at a young age,
you have to inform them of it 'cause they'll do it wrong if you don't. - It's baked into our
culture from the music that we listen to. It's in porn, it's a dominating culture. When you go into a relationship, these are the things that you see, so you try to enact on that. Consent doesn't make
you any less of a man, consent is really creating the
safety for the other person to mutually just be down for it. - Honestly, I didn't really hear anything that I disagreed with over here. It's just the only thing
in this conversation that I worry about is
lack of accountability. 'Cause a lot of times, you know, women or men, it doesn't
matter what your sex is, if you're engaging in sexual activity, you can pretty much signal
that it's consensual, and it can get confusing. But then if a woman or if
a man doesn't verbalize it, and then they go back, they
confuse consent with regret. And I've seen that a lot in court cases or just throughout our culture. - But that's where the
cores thing come, right? And like the context running, like, if they were to say no,
would they have been safe? Would there have been repercussions? Are you putting them in a position where there--
- But is that on the man or is on the woman because if they agree to do it--
- It depends on the situation. - [Clarkson] I'm not sure you're raped. - So, like the Harvey Weinstein thing, like if any of those women say no, their careers are ruined.
- Right, right. - They're in danger, 'cause they're status (murmurs) - So, it's the context. I don't think that false accusations, especially, for sexual
assault are anywhere near as common as people wanna
make them out to be. And I think the much bigger problem in day-to-day life is the consent issues, not the false accusations. - That's undermining it though. - [Josh] Undermining what? Undermining what?
- Because you guys, haven't gone through it. Saying that that is okay is not. - I'm not saying it's okay. I'm saying in terms of
what's a bigger issue that we need to worry about. - Yeah, I think there
are some nuanced issues that we have to pick aside, and I'm picking women not
getting raped over men, not getting falsely accused. - But that isn't-- - I don't think that you have
picked a side yet though. - Those aren't mutually exclusive, and it's a shame that we live in a world that's so black and white that you can't balance
the interest of those who are true victims and also
those who are falsely accused. One false allegation of
rape, sexual assault, discredits a lot of other
real ones in people's eyes. It ruins the lives of
people who are true victims of getting their cases heard
in a fair and positive light. - I think what we're
all circling around is that what we need in our society is
comprehensive sexual education. - Yeah.
- And I think the topic of consent needs to be just as important as the topic of protection. - You probably would
if men got raped more. - [Female] Male feminists
are in it to get laid. (indistinct) - I'm excited for this one because I don't like women sexually, so this is gonna be a very
interesting conversation. I think that if you are a straight male, the way you view women, subconsciously is always going to be, have something to do with sex. - Right.
- On just a fundamental level, just in nature. Now, that might not be the whole premise, but I do think that it has
something to do with it. - Yeah, I think, again, the problem with these statements is
like, they're general. I think there are men out
there that are predatory, and are posing as feminists to
get into the pants of women. - Even on a more like micro level, like, so I was literally, just watching a recent Jubilee video and it was one about a man, he was a self-proclaimed pickup artist. This is almost a direct
quote of what he says. He goes, "Oh hell yeah, I with feminism." - You know, I like to
think I'm a feminist. I (beeps) with feminism. - And I think it's kind
of emblematic of like, there are men that don't
understand the full gravity of how people who are real feminists feel about the situation.
- [Josh] Yeah. - And they kind of see it as like this, "Oh, this cool hot social issue." - [Josh] Yeah.
- And if I talk about it, it puts me in the group of the good people.
- Right. - And I don't think it's always heinous, while there are people
that are doing that. Some of it's just like
such blatant ignorance, they lack the understanding. - Yeah, I think even the posing of the question is indicative of the truth of the matter that I think
a lot of the time it is that because if you align yourself with a lot of the more
traditionally toxic masculine traits and you're not viewed as on-team woman, then you're not gonna be in line with a lot of Western
women in today's society. - I have a few friends
that go to these parties, and they're like, "Oh
yeah, fuck Andrew Tate." They all watch them, but they'll be like, "Oh, fuck Andrew Tate," just so they can get laid
because they know that's how a woman will feel like,
"Oh wow, they listen to me," or "Oh wow, they agree with me," and feel a little more connected. - Yeah, and I think for me, as someone who believes genuinely
in the fact that men and women are equal, but I don't go around
parading myself as a feminist because the only thing that I could think that justifies being
a third wave feminist, being a feminist today, is you
must just want to get laid, because there's no reason to believe in all of these crazy things
that go after your identity as a man that seek to strip
you of your masculinity, that perpetuate these terrible ideas that men are bad and evil
and all of these things that you can't be a provider, you can't be a protector,
all these things. I think that has to be the reason, like you have to get to laid. - Some of us don't identify
with, me personally, I don't identify with masculinity. I might show masculinity, but like, I don't think feminism is
taking anything away from me. - But I think that's a societal problem. The fact that masculinity itself, has become a dirty word is a problem. - I didn't say it's a dirty word. I'm saying it doesn't matter. - Then why didn't you choose
not to identify with it anyway? - Wait, wait (indistinct)
- Because when you say it, nothing in my heart feels anything. It's just a word, it's just a--
- Right. - I don't think anything
I do is because I'm a man. I think that it's because of who I am. - Yeah, yeah, yeah, well-- - Let's hear it. - I think, to your point, asking like, why would
any man be a feminist? So, I just think that we don't all view feminism the way you do, similar to the way that Black Lives Matter
movement has been moved and changed and developed
in terms of the way that people identify it. The things that you
speak about when you talk about third wave feminism is not what I mean when I say
that I am a male feminist. And so yeah, no, if you can't understand that me wanting to make
the world a more equal and level playing field for
my two daughters, for my wife, for my mother, and my mother-in-law, and standing in front of people who want to take liberties away from them, that's the reason why
I am a male feminist. It's a perpetuation of oppression that I'm trying to dismantle. - And for me, I think we're taking this from a very heteronormative
perspective, right? All my friends aren't straight women, so I'm not gonna look at my
non-binary or LGBTQ friends, and be like, "Oh, just because
I can't have sex with you, I'm not gonna fight for your rights." There is no personal gain for just saying that (murmurs) - I agree with you. And I think a lot of us agree
on what we're talking about. It's just these labels are in the way of getting us to that.
- This all blanket statement. - One thing to build on
top of too is to an extent, leading men to want to
take advantage of women, is the very pressure put on by other men.
- Yeah. - That if you're not sleeping around, if you're not getting laid, you aren't, and that doesn't come from women, at least from my experience-- - And that's patriarchal culture, yeah. - If men were a little bit
like, so I'll say this now. I didn't lose my virginity until I was 22. Now, I'm fine with that. If you asked me at 21
how I felt about that, I would change the subject as
quickly as I possibly could, 'cause I was ashamed. - [Quentin] They make movies about it. - Yeah, dude, I mean, I was ashamed of it, but, you know, that's
part of the patriarchy. - [Female] This is gonna
be the last prompt. - [Man] No. - [Female] I wanna hear everyone speak. I want everyone to get their voice in. Be mindful of folks
that are trying to talk. Step forward if you agree with the prompt. I like living in a patriarchal society. - I would say patriarchal society, again, I've mentioned the
scriptural basis for this, but I think patriarchal society is the way that society functions best. Yeah, patriarchy is
just a man-led society. So I think we've kind of
flipped the term on its head to mean something that it doesn't mean, to say that a patriarchy is a
society that oppresses women. That's not what a patriarchy is. So, I think if you have a
patriarchy operating properly, you have men that are responsible and taking care of their families, taking care of the women of society. And in turn, the women
have equal opportunities to pursue whatever career
they want, to be a mom, to be a wife, and to do the things that they want to do as well. - [Man] We're coming to get you. - So, I'll go first. This is a little bit of a
personal emotional thing. At the beginning of September,
I lost my brother to cancer. And I took about two or
three weeks off work. And then I really started
feeling the financial impact up. And I have my girlfriend, you know, people in my life telling me that they wanna help me out financially, but I have this thing internally within me that feels like a leech. In some way, shape, or form, that is because of this expectation that we put on men to be providers, it's really fucking hard. And I can't explain why. I would've liked to have a little bit more
time than three weeks before, I had to start worrying
about fucking money again, after my brother passed away. And I do feel like that
kind of is a direct result of the patriarchy. Like, and I know that it is myself, it's my personal feelings. But I think it stems from the
society that I grew up in, that I'm even feeling
these things to begin with. - I'm sorry. - Yeah, to start, you know, I wanna say I'm
really sorry for your loss, because I can't even imagine what it's like to lose a loved one. So, I wanna thank you
for sharing your story. It's really important for people to hear, but I don't think that it's accurate to blame a horrific situation
on one aspect of society or the patriarchy or this
without any solid basis. - That is, so I think
that's a fair response. And to clarify my statement
just a little bit, that's more of a communal problem. I wish there was a little bit more of a stronger community sense within our country.
- And correct me if I'm wrong, but I feel like a patriarchal
society is not one of support. It's one of merit. It's one of bootstraps. It's one of strengths.
- Competition. - Yeah, it's competition. - You said that a merit-based
society is somehow correlated with the patriarchy. And I don't see the correlation there, because if you look anywhere in nature, everything is merit-based. You know, lions in the safari, it's about strength,
it's about competition. That's just how our world works. And my biggest flaw with feminism today, or any social movement really is that some things are
just inherent to nature. So to try to solve equal outcome and solve all of these
problems, it's just not even. And It takes away from
actually solving the issues that are in front of us
because it's a delusion. - There will always be winners and losers. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. I just wanted to go back and, you know, we've been asking what does
patriarchy mean, right? You know, I don't think
it just means male-led. What I'm trying to dismantle
is the institutions in our society reinforcing
that males are superior. A lot of societal institutions and staples of our society
are reinforcing that narrative that men alone have to take on that mantle of being the one to provide, being the one to lead the charge
on fixing a problem, right? Where, like, what Tucker was saying, we all experience emotions
and react independently and we look for community. - Yeah, so I think a direct
combat towards the patriarchy, is emotional intelligence that we haven't actually
talked much about today. We keep going back to business, money, and all these different things because those are things
associated with manhood. But if we really wanna shift the dynamic, it's about how do we
own the emotional parts of ourselves as men? And that is not a conversation that is had in society enough nor is it supported in a patriarchal society. It impacts men in a way where we feel like we can't let the armor down. - That's what the difference
between third, you know, you were saying like third
wave feminism versus first and second wave. I feel like now, it's about superiority. When you're saying like, you're mansplaining or when you're playing that men do this or men take
advantage and men do that, it makes it as were your enemy, when in reality, it should be more about working as a team, right? - I have a clarifying question. - Yeah.
- So, you were describing that it's shifting to matriarchy, right? - Yeah, matriarchy. Just more like being against, like when you're demonizing men for their actions in general. - Yeah, so when we're
moving towards a socially, matriarchal society, it's mansplaining and it's men being canceled. But when patriarchy is in place, we're dealing with issues of wealth, we're dealing with issues of healthcare, whether you consider it healthcare or not. We're dealing with issues of safety. We're dealing with issues of liberty. We're dealing with issues of choice. It seems that matriarchy is less, I guess, oppressively heavy because all I have to deal
with is you not liking what I have to say. Whereas in a patriarchy, I can't make as much money, that's worse. - Well, it's not just about disagreement, whether or not it exists. And the fact of the matter is, even in a patriarchal
society, which doesn't exist, then women can still go and
make the same amount of money. If women majored in higher
paying fields of study, they would make more money.
- Nope. - When we talk about men's mental health, I separate it from patriarchy, because I think that to be expressive about what you're feeling and
what you're going through, you have to be strong. And being strong, I associate that with being
a man, being masculine. Maybe society would like
to beat you up for that, maybe that's why men are
likely to commit suicide. But that is still an example of strength. - I think that as we get further and further along the generations, we need to start preaching to
young men the type of strength that you are talking about. Self-awareness, discipline, and honesty, emotional honesty. It's not being tough
and not like, you know, being able to go through a lot, but being aware when you're
going through something, when you're struggling, being able to articulate that, right? And doing it to the right
people at the right time. I think that is what strength is. And I think that that's a positive message that we could communicate to the next generation about masculinity. - We ended on consensus.
- [Female] Yes, that is a wrap on male feminists versus
male antifeminists. Nice job y'all. - You say they hate men
while trying to become men. - Not true.
- That is true. - Well, she was fucking being raped. - I am a woman. - Oh, you're a woman now? - Let me give you guys a hug, man. You guys are awesome.
- Yeah. (murmurs) - Don't hesitate brother, man. I can't even imagine that. - Yeah, we need to have that sense of community
like he was talking. (murmurs) - Pleasure to meet you.
- God bless you, brother.
