- I actually attended
quite a few pride festivals and they were amazing, but do I agree that holding pride
festivals are a good thing? No, I don't agree because
being gay I do believe is a sin and that does something to the land. Like, when we celebrate that, it can cause earthquake,
diseases, all these stuff to start to happen according to the Bible. - [Announcer] We are approaching the 150th episode of "Middle Ground" and we need your help to
continue making more episodes. Join our "Middle Ground" Patreon and help us make "Middle Ground." (upbeat dramatic music) - [Narrator] "You're queer even if you suppress
your homosexual desires." Can the agreers please step forward? - I think the idea of
being ex-gay is dishonest. I think psychologically
we know, sexuality, though it can exist on a
spectrum, is part of who we are. It's an innate part of who we are. And I think claiming ex-gay is claiming that you've
changed some part of you that I don't think can be changed. And I think it's one thing to say I've chosen not to lean into my desires. It's another thing to
say I've been healed from or completely eradicated
those desires within me. - Yeah, I agree. While I wanna honor and respect each person's individual
journey and their own identity, an orientation just can't be changed. You can live it out in a different way, but it is how you were created. - Yeah. - And psychologically speaking,
it is damaging, actually. It leads to depression
and anxiety and obviously, like, suicide or suicidal ideation that the fruit of trying to change actually is damaging to
one's soul and psyche. (wooden block knocking) - [Narrator] Can the
disagreers please step forward? - The only identity I want to claim over my life is child of God. I hate labels and so, even as
I came outta the closet, like, I didn't like to to
announce myself as gay. The only identity that I clearly see with inside of myself
is being a child of God. It's what He has defined for me as a man. - Why is there conflict there
between being a child of God and other parts of your identity? - It's not really up to me
to get to define who I am. And a lot of times, even
in my own life, like, I thought that I wanted certain things and then I realized that those
things were not good for me. So I base just my belief and my identity on what
the Word of God says. - Does that work in reverse? Like, what if you want to
be a singer or a painter or something that is positive? Do you say, well I can't do that 'cause I can't find scriptural support that says I can go be a painter. Like, how do you feel
about that in the opposite? Don't you think that there
are things God instills inside of you to show you
maybe what His plan is for you? And I'm with you, too. My identity is in Christ, but there's so much that makes me me. I'm somebody's son,
I'm somebody's brother. I love Celine Dion and Taco Bell. (Candice laughing) Like, there's all these moving parts to make Gilbert who Gilbert is. - Yeah.
- And I just wonder, like, where do you draw the
line if you think that, you know, God has to tell me who I am. Well, what if that's how I see this? God is always telling me who I am. - Yeah, there are certain
things inside of us that they're not bad things. And so like if I wanted to be a singer, I did want to be a singer at one point. So I'm like, oh, that's awesome. Like, the Lord might
want that for my life, but at the same time I also
have to surrender that to Him and just tell Him, okay, like
this is what I want to do, but you also get the last say because at the end of the day, like you were formed in the womb by Him. He knows you better
than you know yourself. - For myself as a Christian,
as a believer in Jesus Christ, I believe in the power of deliverance. I believe that you can be completely delivered from homosexuality. Not only because of what the Bible says, but because of my personal story. You know, I used to have sex with men. I used to dress like a woman, used to have a desire to
possibly be a transgender if it wasn't for the grace of God, but God completely changed my desires. You said that your identity is in Christ, but your identity is also in the LGBTQ, I don't know for sure, or do you identify as somebody in the LGBTQ? - Right, so like I was saying, there's many things that make me me. When I say that I'm gay, it means that I'm being
honest about my attractions. It's not just, like, a sexual,
it's also psychological, it's romantic, it's all of these things that I cannot have with a woman. - Sexuality is a choice. Everybody has the right of free will to choose what they want to
do, but at the end of the day, our subjection to should
be to the Word of God. I can quote numerous
scriptures where it says that a man and a man and a woman and
a woman is forbidden by God. It doesn't mean that God hates
the person that's doing that. God loves everybody, but he hates the sin. And it also says that those
who approve of such things or those who practice such
things will endure hellfire. - I think I'm probably the
most unique person here because I firmly believe, first of all, sexuality and gender are not a choice. And I say that as an intersex person. So I don't know if you guys understand what being born intersex means. You might've heard the term hermaphrodite. I was born with a condition
called de la Chapelle syndrome. I'm chromosomally a female, but there was a gene mutation
on my dad's Y-chromosome that caused me to develop partially male. And then when I finally was
starting to hit puberty, I was actually developing
more like a female. And I dunno, I just think
it's disingenuous to say that sexuality or gender is a choice because I never got the
choice to be diagnosed with the intersex condition that I have. I think that there is a lot of things we just don't understand
about sexuality and gender. So I come from a like a scientific place. I don't come from a religious place. - So I'll say this, I'll agree that having same sex attraction
is not a choice and stuff because I had same-sex attraction
since preschool and stuff. I didn't have that choice and stuff. I was like, oh, why am I
attracted to guys like how girls and guys normally are
attracted to each other. But I definitely will say, like, you know, as a Christian from a
theological standpoint, you do have a choice to act on it or not and God gives us the power by the strength of the Holy Spirit to
have us walk in a life that is holy and pure
and righteous before Him. - In services, what always breaks my heart is that you have pastors that
are singing worship songs like "break my heart
for what breaks yours, open up my eyes to the things unseen," and they are able to
have this palatable way of accepting LGBT people by
calling them same-sex attracted. But then when we come into
their church and we're like, but, okay, yeah if you
wanna use that language, but we're gay. These orientations, they don't change. - But like I said before- - We're getting the face to it. - What makes you be
able to define yourself? - The definition of the word. I mean, it sense, it's that easy. - But who gave you that authority? - To speak the truth? God. - No, to identify yourself. - Like, I'm using a definition of a word. - So to you, like, you just can claim whatever identity that
you want for yourself. - [Gilbert] No, unless it's true. - I had to come to the
realization that I was gay. When I was seeking a
relationship with the Lord, I told the Lord, I said,
Hey, this is how I feel, this is what I like, but you're gonna have to show me that you're real. You're gonna have to prove yourself to me. And He did, and He took
those desires away from me. He's given me strength
to overcome my desires of falling into homosexuality again. But that doesn't mean
temptation is not there. You know, I don't get
tempted as I did before, but even the Bible says Jesus
got tempted by the devil. So like, it's not,
temptation is not a sin, but I'm just saying that
the deliverance part comes from the Holy Spirit
giving me the strength over that and completely taking it away. - There's a religious component, but the psychological component is that then you're repressing a
part of your sexuality. It's not gone, it's still there. - It's not.
- But you're choosing to not engage with, and that's fine. - But why do you call it repressing? Because there's lot of things- - Because it's a part of you that you're- - That we do that, what we would consider something that I don't wanna do. Like, let's say, I love Big Macs, I love going to McDonald's, I love eating. - Yeah. - But that's not necessarily good for me. - And you repress that. - Would you say say that I
repress my need for a Big Mac? - Yes.
- Yes. - Yes, absolutely.
- Exactly. - That's literally the
definition of the word. - Why does it have to be negative? - You're repressing it.
- It's having self-control. - Why can't it be something positive? Yeah, like self-control.
- It's self-control. - Self-control is beautiful.
- Self-control is repression. - And that's what the Bible
says, to have self-control. - So I think it's self-control to say no. - That's one of the
fruits of the Holy Spirit. - Exactly. - But you all are, you're saying that this is necessarily negative. I think- - Right, agreed. - Ex-gays, I want you to be honest and say, I still have the attraction and I'm choosing to not engage with it, rather than telling people they can actually be healed
from their sexuality. That's not true. (music crashing) - [Narrator] "There is scientific
basis behind being LGBTQ." - Let's go, girl. So I mean I feel like this prompt is very much about someone like me. I think there is scientific
basis behind being born and LGBTQ community. There are, like, so
much scientifical basis for someone like myself and we've existed since the beginning of time, but the media never platforms
someone like myself. Like, I can't name one
famous intersex person and I'm an intersex person. - Yeah.
- I think it's mighty time that like we bring intersex voices forward because I think not only
can it help our community, but it help the trans community
with a lot of the struggles of like people in
validating their identity in like their manhood or their womanhood or their just their personhood, you know? - I think psychologically, scientifically we know that homosexuality
occurs throughout nature. This is not a question anymore. And the idea- Welcome.
- Sorry. - The idea, this language of unnatural, which does unfortunately come from the Bible, is just untrue. Scientifically, we know that homosexuality is a naturally occurring
phenomenon in many species and in humanity and so
anybody who's trying to claim that it's not an innate
part of human beings is not doing that from
a scientific standpoint. - I don't think any animals are asking to be delivered from their homosexuality. - Yes.
- And like, if we're gonna come from
a religious standpoint, as someone who was religious
for the first 13 years of my life, the common
saying, God makes no mistakes, I don't think God made
any mistakes about me. - Amen. Amen.
- And also. any of just like my average
transsexual brothers and sisters and non-binary siblings, like, I don't think there's anything
inherently wrong with that. (wooden block knocking) - DNA cannot predict sexuality. It cannot predict if you're gay, it cannot predict if you're straight. And also too, with intersex individuals, we cannot use the case of intersexuals to generalize the LGBT community. - But if someone could be born like me, why could someone not be born homosexual, bisexual, transsexual? - The psychology is clear though. There is not a single
psychological association in the country that
would say that sexuality is something that can be changed. They would say it's an innate reality. - Now.
- And for gender as well- - Because it used to be, like, they did have psychological terms. Homosexuality was
considered to be a disorder. - In the age of Freud, but
we've moved on since then. - We've debunked that. - Why have we we moved on since that? Was it the gay rights movement? - No, Freud was- Science progresses as
we get new knowledge. That's how science works. - I believe if you were born
with a vagina, you are a woman. If you were born with
a penis, you are a man. - What about my two X chromosomes? - Okay, so you were in
war and a grenade went off and you lost your penis.
- Yeah. - What would your gender be?
- Still a man. - [Candice] Okay, but
you don't have a penis. You have no genitalia. - Yeah, well that's what God gave me. Whatever God gave you,
whether, you can cut it off, you can strap it on, whatever it is. I believe that's still what God made you. - So God gave me-
- So God gave her- - Non-functioning genitalia-
- An intersex condition- - But the DNA-
- Until I have reproductive, like, created from surgery. - But the DNA doesn't change. - I wanna ask a question, though. What are, like, if- I don't wanna be, you know, insensitive... - No, I'm an open book so ask me anything. - But reproductive organs,
like, they don't work? Like, do you have a womb? - So for me, no. I was born with literally
almost no internal sex organs and non-fully-developed sex organs. So when I was born, I basically had a partially-formed phallus,
but I did not have testes, did not have ovaries, I
didn't have any inter- Prostate, anything like that, and so when I started
going through puberty, I never got very masc- I never got like a lot of facial hair, but I did grow breast tissue naturally. So like what do you say to someone like me who's walking around with
breasts, but you know, I literally was never gonna be able to father or mother a child. There's a lot more to the conversation than just like penis, man, vagina, female, XX this and like I have
XX chromosomes, but like- - XX, that is male. - XX is female.
- Female, yeah. - So I am chromosomally a female, however, like, my condition's called
de la Chapelle syndrome, but it's also known by some
people as XX male syndrome because like again, people just associate the penis being there
as somebody to be male. But up to 50% of people with my condition do end up going under some
feminizing transition. I'm happy to share my story because I think it's very important. I think it would help a lot of
people understand that like, if I could be born this way, why could someone not
be born a trans person? Why could someone not be born a homosexual or bisexual person? - Well, I wanna apologize
for the Christian community because I think there has
been a lack of education between gender and then also sexuality. I look at your case and I'm
like, man, that's horrible. That sucks. Like, attraction,
flesh-full desires, lust, all these types of things, those are different than gender. - As a believer in the Word of God, I believe that God
created a man and a woman. So when it comes down to intersex, I don't believe God is
the author of confusion. That's why I don't believe if you have a little breast tissue or you have some, you're now growing facial hair, I can completely switch over to a female or I can completely switch over to a male because I have certain male or I'm a woman and I have a beard. I still feel like what's
between your legs, what God has created you,
God created man and a woman. There's no, I don't see any intersex. I don't see any of these things in my- - Wow. Wow. (Abigail laughing) - That's the Word of God. - [Gilbert] That is
tremendously dismissive. - The very first being that
was curated was genderless. - Was Adam. No, Adam was a man. - No.
- Adam was a man. - Let's just go with that, let's just go. Adam and Eve are the first, okay? But just because something is the first, it doesn't mean that it's the standard. If you look at Adam and
Eve, then you're like, oh, that's what we have to be. They're the blueprint. Well then, that goes
down the slippery slope 'cause then what was their hair color? What was their eye color? What was their skin color? And any deviation from that
means that you're evil. - I'm also to a therapist and I work with a lot of
children who have autism. Seeing families who, you know, question why was my child born this way? I kind of think of that
scenario in my head. Obviously you don't autism,
but you being intersex and coming out here, I
think it's a wonderful thing because you guys-
- Absolutely. - Your stories are not really heard. I think of the scripture when a man went to Jesus about his
son who was born blind. And he said, why was my son born this way? Is it-
- Generational curse? Is it because of his parents' sin? - Yeah, is it a result of my sins? And Jesus respond and said, it's so the glory of God
could be seen in him. You know, that brings
a lot of comfort to me. And when I think of a rare
case of your, I know you don't, you're not religious, you
don't believe in that, but that's how I see you. You know, I see the glory of God in you. - And I'm so glad you
can see the glory of God in part of the queer community. My prayer is that you can see it in all of the queer community. (music crashing) - [Narrator] "Conversion
therapy has positive outcomes." - Praise the Lord, yes. - Thank God nobody stepped forward. - Thank God nobody stepped forward. (wooden block knocking) - [Narrator] I guess can
everybody come forward? (all laughing) - I believe conversion
therapy is detrimental because I believe the only person that can convert you is Jesus Christ. Homosexuality is not the only sin. Murdering is a sin, thieving is a sin. If I were to steal that jacket from you and run outta here, that's a sin. You know what I mean? I don't believe conversion therapy is is really converting somebody because I believe homosexuality
is a demonic spirit and the only way a demonic
spirit can leave a person is through the power of Jesus Christ. - So do you hold homosexuality
and murder on the same level? - They're both sin. - Well, can I say
something about conversion? I actually experienced conversion therapy. So I actually was an attendant
of the Exodus Ministries, if you guys are familiar with that. - That's what I'm sure
was all gonna come up. - Yeah, it was devoted to getting people to just have heterosexual attractions. And I remember we went up to some mountain and there was protestors
outside of the hotel and I was forced to go
there by my parents, but I don't think that it worked just because Jesus wasn't the center. And so while I was there,
the only thing that I learned was like, this is how you
can be more masculine, this is how you can be more
manly, by playing football, and then the girls, they
would teach them how to, you know, put on makeup. - Did you ever pray? I don't know, I'm asking. - Did I pray, like, the gay away? - Well yeah, I know we all
made those prayers, of course. But I mean, 'cause I
never went through that, that's not my journey, so I was wondering in those practices, did
they not incorporate like spirituality and prayer? - They did, but it wasn't,
like, the main goal. Like, I've been able to
recognize Jesus as the change of my desires to be able
to say my desires changed to want to submit my whole personhood to the lordship of Jesus. I don't feel it. I'm like, well I still
have attractions to men and I'm look looking around the gym and I'm like, wow, these guys
are, you know, good looking. - Yeah, yeah. - I'm still, like, I want to
submit my desires to the Lord and that came out of my
desire to want to serve Jesus, not necessarily to want to be heterosexual or to want to be more manly. - I mean, I spent years
and years and years doing exactly what you're talking about, fasting, praying, being
prayed over, delivered, all of the things that I
was told I needed to do to take away my desire, that
I would submit to Jesus. And the time that I felt most
filled with the Holy Spirit was when I kissed a woman. That is when I was filled
with peace and joy. You know, just like I want
to respect your stories, there can't be a disproving of
the spirit of God in my life. That is a personal experience just like you're having
personal experiences. My personal experience and
my community and my family all bear witness to the beautiful fruit of the spirit of God
being in my relationship with my wife and in our children. - Can you link that
fruit back to the Bible? - Yeah.
- 'Cause if you can't link it back to the Bible-
- 1 Corinthians 13. - It's not the fruit of the Holy Spirit. - Or you're in just like
God's redemptive order. You know, like if all
the women in the world decided to have sex with women and all the men decided
to have sex with men, there would no longer be any reproduction. - God has created us diversely. - There are plenty straight
people who cannot reproduce. - Of course. I'm just
saying that there's an order to the way that God does things, and so- - But if God produced me
then like why couldn't God produce like just a normal gay person or just a normal transsexual person? Like, anything like that? I just don't think that
you can really pray, I couldn't pray that away. - I have a question about
the word conversion therapy because I did a year of conversion therapy and that was meeting
with a ex-lesbian person and we prayed through my sins. The idea behind conversion
therapy was that there was trauma in my
past and that was causing my sexual orientation to
skew and so I spent a year doing all of this prayer for deliverance. And then I hear some language here being talked about like being
delivered of homosexuality. If it's not being done by
a clinical psychologist, that doesn't change the fact
that it's trying to convert you from being one thing to another thing. And I think that is objectively harmful. - It's not about bringing that community from gay to straight. - Right.
- Thank you. - It's bringing them from gay to a relationship with the Lord. I'm married today, I have
a baby on the way, right? - Congratulations.
- Thank you. - Yeah, let's go, bro. (laughs) - But I think when I
tell people my testimony, they take the highlight of my story as me being married and me
having a child on the way. But the highlight of my
story is me coming from a gay lifestyle to a
relationship with the Lord. Okay, my desire to be with
a man is no longer there. I want to be with a woman, right? But it came from my
relationship with the Lord. So it's about bringing that
community from a relationship with the Lord rather than from gay- - I'm a therapist, I've been a therapist for almost 20 years.
- Yeah. - And I would say at
least half if not more of the clients that my
team and I work with are people just like you. They call us and they
say, I have three kids, I have an amazing life. But in time, all it has
brought is suffering. That is their story. - Well, to be a Christian
as part of being suffering. I mean, you should know this. It's like Jesus, He denied himself. He put himself on the cross. Like, there's probably gonna be- - But she's saying suffered unnecessarily. - That's right. - And why do we need to suffer as people for a book that was
written 3000 years ago? I'm sorry.
- Well, long-suffering- - I just like...
- Is a fruit of the spirit. - We have like 80 to 85
years on this planet. I don't wanna suffer for any
f- reason that I don't have to. And I've had to suffer for
the first 24 years of my life. - The more you suffer doesn't
make you more of a Christian. It just, yeah. - And what did Christians
do before the Bible? Right? There were thousands of
years before there was a text and even when the text came,
most people couldn't read and they didn't have access to the Bible. So what did they do? - I think it comes down to
how you said your experience with the Holy Spirit being filled up with the Holy Spirit
while kissing a female. What is the fruit that
comes from out of that? - We have children, we
have a beautiful home, we have an amazing community. Our families love us and support us. We are happy and healthy. I mean our life is so, so blessed. - But my thing about that
would be, I would say that God cares more about your
holiness than your happiness. But my thing- - You're defining heterosexual, your whole wholeness or
holiness as heterosexuality. - Well no, no. Absolutely not. - Gay people can have that, too. - No, no, no. Oh, I'm definitely not defining that as heterosexuality. - But in the way that you're speaking, you're like, it's not about being gay. Jesus wants me to be holy. Why are you pitting those two
things against each other? Gay people can live holy lives. - Exactly. - Well, I would say that, I'm not talking about
people who aren't religious. If you're not religious,
hey, you can live your life the way you want to, but
if you do claim to be a follower of Jesus, God
calls us to be set apart and practicing homosexuality is a thing he calls us to be set apart from and that's just the truth. - That's not in the Bible.
- That's not in the Bible. That's not true. - That literally is true.
- Sorry, sorry. Just can't lie like that about the Bible and not have me say something. (music crashing) - [Narrator] "A healthy family requires a male and female role model." (music crashing) "The pride movement is
negatively affecting younger generations." - I experimented with
bisexuality when I was a teenager and I didn't know what it was. I didn't know there was a label. I just did it just because I felt good. But it was until college I realized. like, oh there's a community, LGBT. So I was happy that I found my identity in the pride community
and I still do have family and friends who I love
who are in gay marriages. But after being born again,
just the word itself, it just didn't sit right with me. There's definitely an agenda behind it, speaking spiritually, right? I just think that we need to be more aware of how we use that word pride. - Yeah, no, I, for the
pride, like, you know, speaking specifically
about like pride parades and like the entire month
of June celebrating pride, if it's a thing that like
people are inviting children to and people, like, you know,
in Gen Z and things like that and like you see like
genitalia just like out and like people just
naked and stuff like that. I'm like, that's not
sending a good message. They're gonna view you guys as all sexual and all lustful and stuff, no self-respect or anything like that and like, I just don't personally agree with that. But then also, they view
disagreeing with them about their lifestyle as being homophobic when that's completely different things and they're literally
training people, like, no, if people disagree with
you about who you are, about the life that you
live, they're homophobic, they're scared of you. - [Gilbert] There's some validity to that. - They wanna be away from you.
- There is. - [Rodereck] And I do not agree with that. - When I went to my first
pride event, I was 17 and I was like, oh, people
like me, I get to be out here and you know, and while I was
there looking at the float, there was a drag queen
that was performing. She's fierce and it was all great. But then there was this
like a go-go dancer right next to her and she
performed a sex act on him right there in front of me, and I was 17 and I was one of the older
people, there were kids and stuff and everybody was cheering and celebrating and I just felt like
this wipe out from me. Like, is this what that is supposed to be? But for me that was way too much. And in my line of work,
I do work with kids and I'm hyper aware of
what they're exposed to. I'm very protective of kids. - When I was eight years old, I was introduced to homosexuality through watching the show,
"RuPaul's Drag Race." That's what really
introduced me to that, right? The bible talks about in Matthew 6 how our eyes are the lamp to our body and if we allow darkness into our eyes, we allow darkness into our body. All of those who are
in the LGBTQ community, but some are pushing this
demonic agenda on the kids because kids' minds are sponges and when you show them
that being a man and a man and a woman and a woman
being together is okay, they're gonna grow up thinking, okay, I can do the same thing. And when you do that, you're
turning a whole nation into, you know, no procreation,
none of these things. It's an antichrist agenda,
especially in the education now where they're teaching kids about gay sex and transgenderism is
okay and all that stuff. I feel like that thing
is wrong and I feel like it's a call to repentance,
to turn back to the Lord and really just stop that stuff when it comes down to the kids. - To me, I'm conflicted because I know that the gay rights movement
has done a lot of good. Like, if it wasn't for
the gay rights movement, there would literally still be people who are killed today just
because they face homosexuality. You know what I'm saying? It's just that okay, we can
see these individuals as equal and we don't wanna kill them anymore. And that's partly Christians,
Christians are to blame. Like, we would kill like
gay people and trans. - And trans people are still murdered. I've had three personal friends of mine who have been murdered for who they are. And so that's why I step forward partially because I do think sometimes
there are overtly sexual things that are maybe done in front of kids. And like, I say this
as a drag entertainer, I don't like to perform
in front of any kids because I'm very much, like,
keep your kids at home. 'Cause also they're not
even tipping me anyways. A lot of times they're
loud, they're annoying, they're spilling, if I'm at a drag bunch, they're spilling food
everywhere, not my thing. While I do think it's important
to teach kids about safe sex and all types of sex,
whether it be homosexual, bisexual, whatever type of sex. I think it's like an age thing. - To me, like, I actually
attended quite a few pride festivals and they were amazing. I loved them. I was so
excited to be there, but that was because I identified
and it was the first place that I ever felt truly welcomed. And I think as Christians,
we need to make more spaces where LGBTQIA, they can
come into the churches and feel welcomed and feel safe. But do I agree that holding pride festivals are a good thing? No, I don't agree because
once again, being gay I do believe is a sin and that
does something to the land. Like, when we celebrate that, when we celebrate these festivals, it does bad things to the land. You know, it can cause earthquake,
diseases, all these stuff to start to happen according to the Bible. (wooden block knocking) - I think we need to separate the idea of pride and public acts of sex. Those are not the same thing. But also, I am a mom
of nine-year-old twins and we are the ones who put meanings on things for our children. Bodies are not bad. So even if our kids see
some, an exposed body part, we don't automatically say that
that's bad because it's not. But we do talk about how
some people might feel that that is negative and some people might feel that is as positive. - I think there's like
biblical precedence to that. Like, God created us naked
from the very get go. But then now, once again
with the introduction of sin, that's where lust can creep its way in. And so a child that maybe
saw a penis genitalia, something might happen there where that had they not been exposed to that, maybe they would've remained
a little bit more innocent. - I definitely want my kids to
stay innocent, you're right. Like, I'm not like look at this, you know. To me, that is absolutely harmful. But if we are in the world
or even at a pride festival, which they love, my kids, they feel so much of God's love in pride. They are drawn to it because
they see God's goodness and love reflected in it and they see their moms who
they love reflected in it. They have no definition of bad in that. - That just kind of
doesn't sit well with me, especially like the fact
that you're a Christian because pride cometh before destruction. So I just like cannot
agree with that statement. And as a Christian, maybe we
need to re-look at our Bible. - That's pretty offensive
and pretty judgmental. The pride that's mentioned in the Bible is different than the pride
we're talking about here and it's different than
the pride in a parade. What we're talking about
is actually something that even Christians I'm
sure would identify with and that is just like
we are almost mirrors of God's diversity and inclusion and love that it's like this light
coming down and hitting me and reflecting off and that enjoyment, when we reflect God's creation
and goodness and love, that is so, it's enjoyable. And so that's really what pride is about. - These stories though
are far and few between. I've been to probably
15 parades and festivals over the past 10 years. At any festival where there's
going to be drunken people, like, this is Mardi Gras as well. Like, this is anywhere. - [Gilbert] The media focuses on, too. - So uplifting these one
stories and say look, there was a penis exposed
at this pride parade, this is all what pride is about, that's what happens in the media, that's what furthers LGBT oppression because we're demonizing
us as some sexual deviants that are trying to groom children. That's not what any of these do. - [Abigail] That's right,
people didn't say they do. - Well, why is that like- - We are way more scared that
we're gonna be harmed at those than my kids are gonna see a penis. - I'm 1000% against,
whether it's Christians or just normal people
who are not religious, who bash the LGBTQ community, killing, I'm not for that, I don't stand with that. Though I believe that it's a sin, live however you wanna live, just don't push it on the children. - Would you say the
same about Christianity? Don't push Christianity on the children? - Exactly.
- No, well- - Well, that's the thing,
there is an influence. I remember back in the
day, it was a campaign that was called, It Gets Better. I did not have a good
childhood growing up, especially with all these
attractions, living in Miami, very machismo culture,
and looking at the TV and being like, well, it's
gonna get better for me. Like, eventually like I'm gonna be happy. But it was that influence
that kept me going to want to be gay, to
think like, oh my life is going to get better if
I just give in to this. And I am very thankful for the
people on this panel as well, for us pioneering a new
movement, the holiness movement where we are telling children, hey, if you have these
attractions, that's okay, understand these attractions,
what do they mean? And let's not throw it out the window. But I don't want another make it... - They're dealing with acceptance. - [Samuel] Things are gonna get better. - They're not dealing with the attraction. They're dealing with
wanting to be accepted for their attraction,
that's the difference. - It Gets Better, actually, it gets better because it's incredibly painful to live in a community like you described. - Yeah.
- And I can only imagine the amount of pain that
you've experienced. I would love to transport
you to a different place, a different home, a different family, and to see if your
experiences would be the same. I think they wouldn't. (music crashing) - [Narrator] "LGBTQ people
won't go to heaven." - I wanna make the
distinction between people who have same sex attractions and people who are actively living according to those same sex attractions. Because the Bible says in 1 Corinthians 6 that if you're practicing homosexuality, you will not inherit the kingdom of God, as a drunkard, so as a reviler. The New Testament alone
has enough evidence that the lifestyle of homosexuality is sinful and against God and we can't say that we're followers of Jesus, but yet live according to our flesh. We can't say that we're
filled with the Holy Spirit, but yet do what we wanna do. You mentioned 1 Corinthians 6, chapter six, verse 9 through 10 where it talks about
neither the homosexual, neither the drunker, neither the thief will enter the kingdom of heaven, but we forget the verse after that. "But such were some of you, but you were washed by
the blood of the lamb." - Amen.
- That's scripture to prove that there is deliverance
from any demonic spirit, including homosexuality and
those who practice such things or those who even approve or support such things will go to hell. That's why I disagree with those who call themselves gay Christians. You cannot claim something divine and demonic at the same time. - If you're gay and you're
like, I don't want God, God is not gonna force you. God is a gentleman. And I think that's the saddest
thing is that most people, they've been told, oh,
gays are gonna go to hell, just automatically, and that's not true. That's not true at all. You know, it's a process
of sanctification. That's what we read about in the Word, that it's like, it's present, it's future, and it's past tense in sanctification. (wooden block knocking) - I just want to say, and
you guys are putting yourself on the spot, you all
stepped forward on this knowing that she was in the
room that literally is saying that you believe that
she should go to hell for something that you have
even literally confessed that you realize it's a
biological, scientific thing. - Her DNA says that she's a female and since she's a female- - But not fully, though. - She's living as that-
- She's LGBT. - Well, that's something
completely different. Gender from attraction is different. - The prompt was LGBT people. It wasn't people who are
engaging in sexual conduct, whether you're straight. It just says LGBT people
and you all stepped forward. Don't gimme this whole thing about, well, if you're practicing... That wasn't the prompt. Y'all came forward, y'all stepped out and said that she was going to hell. - Yes, I did because I don't
believe she was born a woman. - That's not for you to decide. - But listen, listen. - You don't have the authority to do that. - Listen, I love, this is my friend. I have love for this person. - This is how you treat your friends? - Yes, I tell them the truth because I want them to go to heaven. - But you don't know the truth. You know more about truth
about her than she does? - Brother, the truth
is in the Word of God. But let me explain myself.
- What do you think about me? - Oh, Mylanta, Georgia. Are you paying attention
to anybody's words that don't agree with you? - She was born with a penis. - She explained her story. - Not a fully developed penis. - That's not what makes- Okay.
- Not a fully developed penis. I wasn't born with testes, I
wasn't born with a prostate. - Thank you.
- Yeah. - I just wanna say at the end of the day, God looks at our heart. If you ever decide to become a Christian, I'm just saying, like, He
doesn't look at our appearance, He looks at what's in our heart. - The second that you all stepped forward, I honestly started to get
a little bit teary-eyed. - Same.
- Because I was thinking the millions of people
that might see this. - That'll be watching.
- Yes. - And what it says it, it
goes to how you view God, that you are scared of God. God's love is ever expanding. The gates of heaven are wide
and God welcomes all of us in. And so it says that your
view of yourselves and of God and the world is a scary
place and it's just not. And that if you can claim, sir, that I can't be gay and Christian, that actually can't happen
because to be a Christian, the definition is for me to have a relationship with the divine. You're not inside of me. So you cannot prove or disprove that just like I can't prove or
disprove your experiences or your relationship with God. I am a gay Christian and I have the spirit of God inside of me. There's no scripture that you can point to that can disprove that because it's about my personal relationship
with my soul and heart, with the divine being we call God. - I actually do. I have two scriptures. - I just told you, you
cannot use scripture, sir. - How?
- But we're Christians. If you're gonna hold the Bible above my personal relationship
with Jesus Christ, then you have held the Bible as an idol. - Thank you. - What Bible do you
read? I'm just curious. - The same one. - The Holy Bible?
- Yes. - I actually feel like a better question is what Bible do you read? - [Xiala] Okay, but what translation? - What translation?
- KJV. - Agreed.
- KJV. - Okay, so there's a documentary out now, brand new, got bubble wrap right on it. It's called "1946."
- And it's false. - The movie. You can disprove it? - Yes I can because we have
the original Greek manuscript which he knows all about. - Yes, and arsenokoitai
does not mean homosexuality. - Maybe you can watch the documentary and you can go into Yale University and you can go through the vaults and you can see what the
Bible translators decided on, which was released in 1946,
and have your own opinion. But ultimately, you just
cannot deny that the fact that the word homosexual is a combination of malakoi and arsenokoitai put together, I would even say forced together, it was challenged by David
Shelton, who wrote the letter to Luther Weigle, who was
the head of Yale Diversity and he admitted, he said, you know what? You're right. This is a bad translation. - And see, I think the
arrogance in the conversation that is off-putting to those
of us who are openly LGBT is that by saying, you
know that gay people are going to hell, you
have placed yourself in the place of God and
said, you know the hearts, you know how God is going to judge and that I think is anathema. I think that's an un-Christian
unbiblical stance to take. - Would you say that it
would be wrong for us to tell a drunkard,
like, he spends the rest of his life being a
drunkard, would you say it would be wrong for us
to say, hey, the Bible says you would not inherit the kingdom of God? It clearly says that. - I don't think drunkenness
sends anyone to hell. I think it is by grace we are saved, through faith, not of ourselves
unless anyone should boast. - Okay.
- But he has an addiction. - No, no.
- No. - He has a different
theology than what we have and that's the real issue, is
that he believes in all grace, so everything-
- Not all grace. Don't put words in my mouth. I believe that God will
ultimately redeem everyone, every knee will bow,
every tongue will confess. - But that's not what the Bible says. - [Samuel] But do you
believe in repentance? - That is literally a
verse from the Bible. - That's not what the Bible says. - That is literally the Bible. - People will spend an
eternity separate from God. - Yes.
- Because of their sin. - Do you believe in repentance? Do you believe that
repentance is necessary? - Of course, I preach repentance- - But not repentance from homosexuality. - Because homosexuality
is not a sin biblically. (music crashing) - [Narrator] "It's healthy to
experiment with sexuality." - You know, like, I've
experimented with women and men and I found myself attracted to both. I would say more to men, so like a 75/25 I guess I would say. It was a very fulfilling
experience to know who I was and why I was feeling these attractions and if these attractions were like valid or they were like really grounded in how I was really feeling
and stuff like that. - For a lot of people, I believe that they are very much on the
straight end of the spectrum or the gay end of the spectrum
talking sexuality-wise, for a lot of people there
is ambiguity in between and in our increasingly
open and inclusive world, there is now space for people to say, well, if I'm not on those polls, then maybe I need to figure out myself. And I think my greatest
harm and trauma in life came from being a part of a church who, when I started to
realize that I didn't align with heterosexuality in the way that I was taught I needed to, said there is no experimentation. There is one way for you to
be, you have to be straight, and in order to be straight, you should go to conversion
therapy, X, Y, Z. That's very objectively harmful. It caused me objective harm. And I think it's such a great thing now that we live in an era
where we can tell kids and youth as they're coming into puberty, there's not a mold for you to fit into. You are created, beloved, unique. Figure it out, figure out what
works for you and it's okay. - I mean, it's healthy to try things out while simultaneously being
deeply connected to yourself and listening to your soul and your heart and the divine that is within you. That's how we learn as people. That's how we were created to
learn is to try things out. Now, if you're going over
a boundary of someone else or an internal boundary that
you have and you're not, and you're shutting that down, that's where harm comes when you start to harm yourself or harm someone else. But if there's a consent happening, how beautiful that you could
be listening to yourself and honoring yourself
and honoring someone else while learning about yourself. - Exactly.
- Absolutely. I tend to be kinda like what
you were saying, Brandan, more on the very gay side. (all laughing) When I was young, I kissed
a girl and I didn't like it. For me it was like I didn't necessarily want that experience, but I
guess it kind of confirmed that it's not for me. I feel like there are a lot of people who are kind of still figuring it out. There's a lot of people
where it's not as clear for them as it is for me,
whether you're gay or straight. Or even if you're like, hey, you know, I'm kind of trying to figure this out. I'm not really comfortable
with being sexual. There's so much more to intimacy
than just the sexual act. But if I'm a gay man, I'm
not gonna be complimentary to a straight woman. That's not gonna be a relationship that's gonna compliment each other. I don't think that I necessarily
need to engage in that and marry her and then take
over that spot of her life that could be going to a straight man. I think if you are marrying someone outside of your orientation,
that is absolutely one of the most selfish
things that you can do. - It's important to say
that in this question. - It is.
- Exploring sexuality does not mean having sex. - Sex. Right.
- Right, exactly. - It means exploring who you are and how you're attracted and
how you show up in the world. (wooden block knocking) - LGBTQIA+. What's in the plus? More experimentation,
more, if you wanna do this, whatever you wanna do. If you wanna have sex with
a dog, have sex with a dog. If you wanna have sex with a- - Oh, God.
- No, it's not. - If you're a boy-
- That's so off, sir. - That is so disgusting.
- Have sex with a boy. - I don't support that.
- No, that's not what that is. - If you're a woman, you
can have sex with a woman. All this stuff is leading to that, though. So when you tell a nation
and you tell a society to fulfill the lust of the
flesh, which is what it is, is you're telling them, oh,
just do whatever you want. Whatever you feel, these things,
and that's why we have to- - There is no harm in homosexual sex. There is harm in sex committed
with a child, with an animal. And that is completely wrong. I will never support that as
a person in this community. And that it's very important to say that. - It's very important to say that, yes. - Anybody who tries to attach
to that part of the community, I don't want anything to do with them. - Same, same.
- So you're understanding- - We're speaking up against that. - Maybe it's your experience
and I feel really sad if that's been your experience, that is not what it means to be LGBTQ+. - I feel like I have a
little bit more of a heart when it comes to homosexuals and everyone's struggling in there. Like, I faced so much struggle in my life. I was bullied all throughout my childhood and I was suicidal at one point. And so it was rough. And that has also helped me to understand that I think it's okay
to recognize the emotions and the feelings that you're having and to make room at the table for that. Like, the last thing that
I would want is for someone to not be able to talk
about the attraction that they're feeling in
church or to feel judged or to feel condemned or to
feel hatred from someone or even to be killed for just speaking up. And that still happens today
and that's what makes me sad. - Okay, so I've heard
multiple of you guys say, like, about creating a safe space for LGBTQ people in a church, right? To talk about certain things. What do you say to someone like me who has experienced sexual assault and witnessed sexual assault in a church? - I think that's horrible.
- Yeah. And I've been sexually assaulted twice, once before I was a Christian and another time when I was a Christian. And so I would say to you
that I sympathize with you and that it's horrible and
that was not God's will, that was not within God's
plan and that's evil. And whoever did that should be punished according to the Word of God. - But the problem is, is
that the Catholic church in particular does not. The person who did that to me and to other would just move parishes and it's a shh, don't talk about it. - Yeah, and we would
100% disagree with that. Like, for me personally, like
I come against the church a lot and a lot of the sinful practices that it has done in the past and stuff when it comes to SA and when
it comes to covering things 'cause I mean, when I
first came out as gay and stuff like that, and I
went to a Baptist church, there wild, but I wanted to
talk about how I was feeling and they were just like,
no, just go be with a woman. Just go sleep around with a
woman and then you'll be fine. I'm like, what? Are you serious? Like, that's so harmful. - Even like, we're
social media influencers and I rarely ever get seen,
our testimony be put on a stage in the Christian churches,
Pentecostal, Baptist. Like, I've had a YouTube
channel for five years. It has over like 500,000 views and rarely ever do I get a call
from the church being like, hey, come share your testimony
or come speak on this. - So I went to a Catholic high
school and my freshman year of high school we had
somebody come and speak why homosexuality and,
at the time, transvestism is the word they use, I
hate the word transvestite, but they used that word,
why that was sinful and why that was wrong
to our entire school. - Okay, so I actually grew up a Catholic and I don't agree with
a lot of their doctrine. You need to be born again.
- Yeah. Yes. - To know the Word of God. I think, you know,
experimenting with my sexuality was not healthy for me. I didn't even realize what
I was doing at the time. The inclination came
to me from a young age and then, you know,
throughout my teenage years, I'm like, hmm, I like boys, I
like girls, let me try this. But later in my years, I
dealt with so much anxiety, I dealt with a little bit of depression because of like the
stress of going to school. And when I went through my deliverance, I didn't go into my
deliverance being like, oh, I need to be delivered
from being a bisexual. I went into my deliverance wanting to be set free from anxiety
and doubt and you know, all those things, and
so, answering the prompt, I don't think it's healthy. - I would agree with the prompt and disagree with the
prompt at the same time. Agreeing in a sense of like,
if you're not religious at all and stuff like that, I
think you have free range to do that, experiment
and do all these things and stuff like that and find
out like who you think you are and stuff like that and
experiment in that way. But I do say if you are claiming
to be a follower of Jesus or like, in the context of
like Christianity and stuff, like, I do say that like
the Bible would come against you trying to, you know, go out there and have your experiences and do this and experiment with that one. God's like, no, no, no. Like, no experimenting here. You're called to follow the scriptures, you're called to be led by my Holy Spirit and to submit to me ultimately and stuff and whatever that looks
like for you, that's- If we're calling ourselves
followers of Jesus, Jesus should be the standard
of who we are following and who we should submit our lives to. - Yeah, I think one of
my first experiences, I lost my virginity through
an app called Grindr and so I was led to experiment on Grindr and I opened up doors that I wish I would've
never opened up before. And that's where I'm like,
no, don't experiment. Like, if you're having the attractions, like, understand the attractions
but don't go out there because now I struggle a
lot with sex addiction, I struggle a lot with temptations. There's some things that you can't unsee and that you can't undo once
you've opened that door. - Yeah, so when people struggle with the things that you've mentioned, it's usually because
they've repressed it, right? And that there hasn't
been like a healthy way to express that and experience
it as you've been created, - Which makes it worse. I wanna ask the panel something. It seems that this whole
conversation is going in the way of experimenting with the same sex. Do you feel that way also
with the opposite sex? Like, let's say I was
someone who was like, hey, I'm gay, I don't wanna be, so maybe I should try
to go and date a girl. - I would say no because
to me it's not about, once again, getting into a
relationship with a female. It's about holiness.
- Yes. - It's about experimenting in Jesus. It goes for the same sexes. There shouldn't really be a difference. And that's why I'm like, man,
I hope we don't have division because it's the same,
heterosexual, homosexual, even though for the homosexuals,
it's been far, far worse, but now let's not do that. Let's forgive, let's move and progress. - I think we found some
middle ground on this issue because I do appreciate what
you just said, I really do. Because even though we
may fundamentally disagree about, you know, the whole affirming somebody's same-sex orientation, I really do feel a little bit encouraged that it's not your guys'
stance to go push somebody into a heterosexual relationship. Because I do feel like that's often what the church tries to do. Kinda like what you were
told, you know what I mean? Like just go date a girl, you know? All the time that we were talking, I kept thinking about Jesus
healing somebody on the Sabbath and how controversial that was. - Yeah. - Because that was a loving thing to do and all of the religious people of the day where like, clearly you
are breaking the law by healing somebody and
it wasn't just something He did once, He was a habitual healer. - Oh, yeah.
- He did it all the time. The law is for love and we get sometimes so weirded out by how are we supposed to
love each other that we forget that it's really just treating
your neighbor as yourself. Do unto others as you would
have them do unto you. It's supposed to be so, so easy. - I just want to implore
all of us to honesty and I don't think it's
honest to claim to be ex-gay because not one of you have said that you have actually been
delivered of your sexuality and by promoting that message, you're causing unnameable harm
to young people in churches who are going to think that
if they pray or go to therapy or follow your version of Christianity, that God is going to take away their sexual orientation
and their sexual desire. I've not heard that said here. I've heard, I've chosen not to do this, I've chosen to turn away. Say that, but don't promote
this message that you can be or should be healed of the
way that God created you. - [Narrator] Thank you. You can thank each other and... - Thank you, guys. - I feel like, yeah, I just- - Love you guys.
- Group hug. - [Gilbert] This is not personal. - Nice to meet you.
- Nice to meet you. - [Samuel] It's not personal. - Yeah, give you a hug.
- Absolutely. - [Rashad] Yes, yes. Good, yeah.
