Hells Angels Undercover Agent Shot First 4 Days on the Job

i got sworn in on a monday raised my right hand took my oath filled out my paperwork four days later i was taken hostage and shot a very difficult way to start your career that hole right there is where the bullet went in my back that's the real shirt that you've kept that's that's what's crazy about it what got you to decide to become an atf agent dealing with drug kingpins and going to mansions and negotiating for tons of cocaine and stripper models bringing them martinis and i was like man you know what i can do that i can do that hollywood's version of undercover one is a hoax i still loved it man i love it every day of it your in hell's angels their purpose is narcotics killing crime money women anything to break the law the mission was to uncover violent crime did you ever feel like those guys got so close to you where you started liking them and then you felt like you betrayed them did you ever feel like that or not at all i felt like that all the time the good people are not always all that good and the bad people oftentimes are not always all that bad crazy craziest you've seen ever on work we're working a cartel case one of the people we're dealing with got sealed up in a 55 gallon steel drum and left out in the desert this human being had become like soup in that barrel how do you keep yourself calm but i felt like i could get to anything bulletproof what you say or what you did or how you acted or responded could be the factor on whether you lived or not [Music] my guest today is jay dobbins he's a new york times bestseller 27 year old federal agent retired federal agent as an atf again alcohol tobacco firearms i don't know why they still have the alcohol and tobacco obviously they did back in the days in 72. but uh he's got one of the most unique stories a very very unique story of what he did going undercover i think on 500 different cases and one big one being the one that he did with uh the hell's hell's angels which for 55 years nobody could infiltrate until jay dobbins showed up and then he was able to infiltrate in two years so jay thank you so much for being a guest on vacation thank you for having me and welcome to your audience yes so you know for me a fun fact is one of my very very good friends was a mongol and he was a mongol who decided to change his life and he was at a locker center valley and he had a crazy life in the past all the tattoos the stories to go with it biker everything but he had become a peacemaker he was kind of trying to get guys to leave the life rather than uh but still the mongols liked him they were still good with them and we traveled together for a good five six years and he would always tell me stories about the mongols and the the fights the battles between the two so i always had to hear stories from this guy when he was a mongol out of crescendo valley but what what got you to decide to become an atf agent you were an athlete before how do you go from that to being an atf agent you become an atf agent from an athletic background by being a failed athlete to be quite honest with you i never had a plan b i was going to play professional football and um everything that i did focused around that when the time came i just i wasn't good enough i don't have excuses there's a lot of athletes out there that like oh if i only wouldn't hurt my knee or i hurt my back or the coach didn't like you i have zero excuses i did every single thing within my power to play professional football i just wasn't good enough um and so i have a clear conscience about that very interesting most most people that that's a very interesting perspective you just gave because you know you have friends who say if it wasn't for this knee injury if it wasn't for this back injury if it wasn't for this ankle i may have made it there you're just saying you didn't make it there but the one story i like that you said when you had a running where was it at when you experienced uh training with andre reed and jerry rice well that was in the process i was still on my original plan a and i went to the 1985 nfl comma which is for lack of better terms or for your audience out there that's not football fans it's the nfl's meat market it is where prospective players come in and you're weighed and measured and tested in the presence of coaches and general managers and owners and they decide whether you are worthy of being a part of their organization so i was an all-pac-10 football player in college i had a very very good college football career so i went to the combine thinking this is my chance i'm going to show off right so i get paired up with a couple guys i've never heard of before one dude was from kutztown state i hadn't even heard of it i asked him where's it at you know shake hands my school's in pennsylvania and i'm shaking hands with them in my internal dialogue is that i'm going to whip your ass today right another dude from this little school in in mississippi that i never heard well we start working out and my my ego and my self-confidence was very high and in 10 minutes i realized i was not going to be a professional football player because these these kids that were my size my build i'd never heard of before i couldn't keep up with them they were they were everything about them as football players was better than me well the kid from kutztown state was andre reed who played 15 years in the late and is in the hall of fame and the guy from the little school of mississippi went to mississippi valley state it was jerry rights arguably the greatest football player to ever wear a helmet and shoulder pads so i was not judging myself against the fairest competition but nonetheless those guys were absolute freak show athletes and uh man i was just i was a common man and let me let me tell you i'm i was a bills fan when i came to the states most people don't know i was a die-hard buffalo bills fan bb kelly bryce pop bruce smith you know uh all those players obviously andre reed thurman thomas they just had a stacked squad those four years and uh to be able to say that you watched andre reid in 1985 and jerry rice at that point did you kind of tell yourself these guys got to kill it in the nfl were you out of were you seeing the major separation of talent between them and others it was obvious like no one knew who they were yet i mean they had good college careers great college careers actually but but they were not on a national stage yet kutztown state and mississippi valley state had not put them on a national stage um who they were going to become was still yet to be seen but even as one of their peers working out with them you you could look at these guys and say i'm like man they're different man these cats are different that's it that's the part right there that's the part right there when you tell the difference between talent and you get to levels i asked kobe one time kobe who did you face off where you kind of knew like this guy's at a different league because he was ranked the 56th best player in high school and he was coming up and he was sizing everybody up and he's like man some of the guys you faced up you knew they were superior and you knew they were going to do something and then obviously kobe ends up becoming delayed kobe bryant god bless us all he ends up becoming who he is today so so you're an athlete you're playing football plan a i'm going to go in the nfl i'm going to be a star that's going to be my career and i'm going to do whatever i'm going to do later on maybe coach maybe stay in the game i don't know what it'll be but i love football at what point do you say i'm going to go be an atf agent i i wasn't drafted in the nfl i went and played a partial season in the canadian football league i played a partial season in the united states football league when you play canadian football it was flutie playing at that time or who were the stars in cfl well um i played with the ottawa rough riders and probably the biggest name on our team like actually didn't make his big name as an athlete our quarterback was a guy named jc watts who ultimately became a congressman from oklahoma jc watts jc watch was the quarterback [Music] a truly amazing man he's a man that's uh that's very important in society right now 100 as a black man as an athlete as a politician um he's got an important voice so you're playing for cfl jc watts is your quarterback and then uh you tried a couple other things there and then and then what are the transition come to each you know i get i get cut into the cfl i wasn't good enough to stick there i i played uh a partial season in usfl when that league folded i actually had a tryout with the chicago bears and i went to a camp with the bears and the coach was mike ditka at the time and and coach ditka when he was letting me go when he was releasing me kind of put his arm over my shoulder on the field and he said kitty goes i love your attitude but you're 20 years too late for this league 20 years how old were you at that time i was 24. you know but so meaning five you would have been a star yeah my style of play just did not the athleticism had had grown and it was you know i say this all the time if you take the worst nfl team out there i don't care who you decide that is and then you go to their practice squad which are the guys that are not on their active roster and find the worst player on the practice squad of the worst nfl team that kid is an amazing football player that kid is a freak show football player that's how hard it is to survive and stick in the game at that level that's perspective that's definitely perspective when you put it that way too to to think about that so by the way we've had mike did gone before i think i was with him at uh his restaurant in chicago we met up we spent a few hours together myself himself and his wife and his interviews on valuetainment one of my favorite guys you know this a guy that changed the game as a tight end and then changes the game as an assistant and then changes the game as a coach and you had one of the best i don't know if you watched the 3430 with him and uh uh uh the whole story of the bears i think it's 84.85 bears document one of the best documentaries i've watched i rented out uh um the entire hotel um in new york i don't remember what the hotel was called the ohika castle in new york we had 32 rooms i brought everybody and all the executives and we sat there and we watched the 34 30 because there are so many great lessons in that documentary with mike ditka so now football doesn't work out you leave football where does atf come in well you know i was a young man and i was lost i never had a plan b um i was like whatever it is i was doing i was very good at being focused on it and and diligent and committed to whatever that was and for the first time in my life i didn't i didn't have a plan a um i knew as much of what i didn't want to do as what i did want to do i i never chased uh my money was never very important to me or my family i grew up in a blue collar family my dad was a carpenter my dad pounded nails for a living my mom was a house cleaner my mom scrubbed people's toilets for a living that didn't want to scrub their own toilets right so we never had a lot but we always had enough um i knew that i wasn't interested in chasing money i wanted something so that when my alarm clock went off in the morning and i put my feet on the ground i felt good i felt excited about whatever it is i was gonna go do to go through and i wanted i wanted to serve i wanted to serve others um and so it's it's uh it's almost hokey to tell this story how it came about but at the time this is mid 80s the television show miami vice was very popular not that not the movie not what like the younger generation is not not colin farrell and jamie johnson is who you were talking about the old the old tv show right and i saw sonny crockett like rolling around south beach in a lamborghini with a hugo boss suit on and dealing with drug kingpins and going to mansions and dealing for negotiating for tons of cocaine and stripper models bringing them martinis and i was like man you know what i can do that i can do that um and and it grabbed me it grabbed like hollywood grabbing but what i didn't realize at the time is that hollywood's version of undercover work is a hoax it's counterfeit right once i was in it i realized that that hugo boss suit that sonny crockett wore was a pair of cut-off camos and a wife-beater t-shirt and flip-flops you know that lamborghini was an old beater car the the mansions were you know were trailer parks and i was i was rolling up to single lines that were on tilt with aluminum awnings hanging off of them and and rusted swing sets and cars on blocks and the the k-pin and the tv show was some guy sitting at a corner bar with his plumber's crack hanging out who didn't have two nickels to rub together you know the big massive dope loads that we saw on television it was an eight ball of coke that was so step down with baby laxatives you [ __ ] before you get high off to be quite honest with you know the supermodels that were smoking and joking were sunny and sitting on his lap they were like straight skanks with three teeth in their head and tits like sweat socks with toes in them with rocks in the toes you know it was anything other than what hollywood had led me to believe it was and when i saw the reality of it and realized that the entertainment industry had lied to me i still loved it man i loved it every day of it i loved every day of it wow the fact that you still loved every day of it that says a lot about the world because you know gary nesner he's the uh fbi negotiator from uh what do you call it uh david koresh with what happened in 1993 at waco he got recruited based on watching the mickey mouse club and he saw j edgar hoover on the show and he said that's how he decided to become an fbi agent because that inspired him by the way this is twice now in one week that says these recruiting stories of how brilliant it is to use a tv show two tv shows to recruit people to the world brilliant marketing if you really don't look at just in a different world look at what back in the day what 25 years ago look what top gun did for the military yeah look what top gun did for naval aviation for for military 80 years man it was like the entertainment business and hollywood is super powerful yes very true by the way i don't know if you know what hitler did hitler did uh the first titanic if you knew the story of the first titanic he made the first titanic and the director was one of his guys and the story was making the the the nazis uh the soldier the hero so people around the world are started saying oh my gosh what great people these guys are so you can also use movies to push a lot of propagandas if you wanted to that's used a lot i mean you know this you're in the world so so now you go and want to become an atf agent you see the miami vice you know you're kind of wanting to have that don johnson type of life you know going out there having a good time career starts how was your first week as an agent oh my goodness i got sworn in on a monday raised my right hand took my oath filled out my paperwork four days later i was taken hostage and shot i i was shot in the back during an arrest situation the bullet uh went in my back in between my shoulder blade and my spine it passed through my lung it narrowly missed my heart and it exited my chest so four days on the job and i was laying in the in the dirt and garbage and dog [ __ ] of this trailer park with blood coming out of my chest like you're holding your thumb over the end of a garden house and i remember what days into it four days i got i got hired on a monday and i got taken hostage and shot on thursday i i remember laying there and a pool of blood was growing around me and an old worn out potato chip bag like in the breeze blew through and stuck in the blood and then blew blew past me and i was like oh my god i'm going to die after four days on this job in a in a trailer park i'm bleeding to death you know like four days on the job i hadn't gotten a paycheck yet that was like that i count them now that was a free test drive and actually like knowing that question was coming have this ready for you so this this this shirt this is the shirt i was wearing that was shot that hole right there is where the bullet went in my back and this hole right here is where it is where it came out of my chest so you know freaking believable like like a very uh a very obviously a very difficult way to start your career now now let me ask you what i read somewhere is the fact that you had the option to get retirement disability for the rest of your life your life and you still turned it down well you know like it goes back to what we said earlier like you know i'm from a blue collar family with me like my folks never chased money i'd never chase money i had attorneys lining up at the hospital come in and say hey kid you know what a million dollars looks like you want a billion dollars about five million dollars you'll never have to work another day in your life let me take this case the government has put you in a situation where they've created a huge amount of liability for themselves you are not yet prepared for this you weren't trained for this they want you and your story to go away you tell me how much money you want and i'll get them to put as many zeros on that check as you asked for it and it'll never see a courtroom and my response was to like just to get out i did not take the job for the money i what i wanted truly wanted was a chance i wanted to get healthy and a chance to come back and see if i could do it right see if i can do it without messing up now jay let me ask you in that moment did your mom or dad talk to you were you like that should i take the money what this is what they're telling me or was it just you made the decision no i want to get back to my job it was it was my decision my parents were around me at the time i think um i think now what uh something years after that event man should i have taken the million dollars you know i don't know but um but i'll tell you what everything in between like declining that money and today i would i wouldn't change a dang thing i wouldn't change one thing so it was the right decision and so you said 30 some how many years ago was it the day you got shot with that shirt i was shot on november 19th of 1987. november 19 1987. why and you kept the shirt from 33 years ago something like that have you ever washed that shirt or no i haven't i use it as it's just a problem it's just a product i use by drinking but it's the real shirt oh yeah that's it that's the real shirt that you've kept that's that's what's crazy about it the uh the detectives so the detectives in the case when i got to the emergency room the medical staff cut the shirt off me and so they the detectives gave it back to me but it was all shredded up and my mother-in-law sewed it all back together for me to make it a shirt again oh so you were married at that time you were already married yes okay because i know you married two kids i read that uh with the family that you were okay so now that happens you come back you recover you say no i want more i want more of this so from there on you go become the atf agent and you you were on 500 different cases is that is that what is that pretty accurate i i was a i was an active participant in over 500 undercover operations sometimes on the point as the operatives sometimes as a team leader sometimes as a cover agent but but i was directly involved you know i had fingerprints on over 500 undercover operations and out of those 500 operations that you were working on outside of the one with the hell's angels which we'll get to here in a minute what which one was you know a couple of them you can say where this was absolutely crazy that i faced off over here here's what i worked on with this i heard something about you did something with the rodney king trial you know the rodney king writes there was a lot of different things you worked on but can you share a couple of the stories with us sure you know the uh the hells angels case which gets all the notoriety and attention is is not my favorite investigation or my favorite case it's i'm not even sure it's in the top five or top ten to be quite honest with you um you mentioned waco i responded uh after the fact to the events at waco i responded after the fact to the columbine high school shooting um i responded to the rodney king riots um so that like i i touched some uh historical events national nationally historical events during my career but you know the reality of this is like as an undercover operator i bought everything from street corner dope up to cartelgo you know i bought saturday night special peashooters in the park up to shoulder launch like anti-aircraft rockets everything from homemade pvc pipe bombs that some tweaker was making in his garage or his mom's basement up to servo remote-controlled c4 devices you know i worked on home invasion infiltrations and murder for hire cases and gang infiltrations um me and my partner uh infiltrated an element of timothy mcveigh's the remnants of timothy mcveigh's crew that was operating in southern nevada after mcveigh set off his bomb at the oklahoma city at the at the murrah federal building in oklahoma city that were planning oklahoma city part two they had intended to blow up three las vegas casinos the mirage the treasure island and the golden nugget me and my partner infiltrated that scheme and defused that plan um another case an undercover program of mine infiltrated an element of the aryan brotherhood and over the course of 100 days bought 100 improvised explosive devices that members of the aryan brotherhood were building for us so that we that we could use you know to do murders and assassinations and intimidations when i look at those two cases in the in the context of the hal's angels case i think they're more important because i think they um had a significant a significantly more important safety element to them if these guys that were going to blow up these casinos in las vegas were able to carry through that plan it's easy to imagine you know thousands of people being injured and killed um this airing brotherhood case where we were buying all these ieds they were selling us selling those devices to us with the intention that we were using them to murder and name people um those were those are important investigations that didn't get a lot of attention that didn't get a lot of publicity that that without a crystal ball to say what would have happened but it's not hard to speculate that they saved lives and saved people from significant significant injuries how how do you become a an undercover and keep the lack of hate and distaste for them and and be able to make them believe that you're one of them and still be able to you know uh catch them committing a crime how do you manage those two personalities um i think uh you have to be a sociopath i i i would have to agree because you know when i when i talked to joe pistone you know donnie barrasco joe pastone who was undercover for the whole uh the the mob families the five families that he brought down six years for him to be undercover i mean that's a long time he was married during that time to be able to be able to do it and i asked him a question i said how do you not flip like you know people can act and then even in hollywood you do as seen as 30 seconds you you do a monologue maybe like what edward norton did in american history exceeds eight minutes that's sick when somebody does that right are you talking about acting for a month two months two years with your case with uh how do you do that how do you manage the two personalities of who you are and who you're acting to be the honest answer to that is not a flattering answer it's not a hero answer there's elements to this answer that i am uh ashamed of i'm i'm regretful of i carry the guilt for um i i wasn't very good at separating my undercover persona from who i was god um i had played that role for so long and so aggressively that now in hindsight regretfully my job evolved from what i did to who i was um and i became addicted to lying i i became i became addicted to the scam to the hustle um and every time i was successful at it my my ego grew and so you know i'll tell you a little story i think that that's a good demonstration of it i had spent routinely months and weeks away from home and i came home one time and my wife told me you cannot be gone for months and walk in the door here and talk to us talk to me and your kids like one of your suspects out on the street in my self-defense i told her i am not a light switch i cannot turn this off and on people who do what i do for a living and treat it as a hobby or dabble in it or treat it as a gimmick end up dead i'm not a light switch and then her response to that was i understand you're not a light switch i understand you have to be on all the time but when you come to this house you better install a dimmer switch and take that attitude down a notch and if you can't don't come back wow she told you that and i had it coming i had at the time it pissed me off at the time i was very resistant to it because i was so in that role now stepping back from it um probably my biggest regret uh my my shame my guilt from all this is the amount of battle damage that i put on my family trying to take care of other people's problems you know in reality in hindsight the people that loved me the most the people that cared about me the most my biggest fans my biggest supporters were the people that i treated the shittiest and and that is uh that's a burden that that i just have to carry that's that's uh i can only imagine by the way are you still married are you guys still together married i i am you know by the grace of god my wife and my kids are so much better than i ever deserve you're still married to the same woman as you were married to when you got into the game uh 30 plus years now we've been married you know our kids are grown and you know i'll tell you um i've given her i've given my life a million reasons to throw everything that belongs to me at this house out on the front lawn and say get out and she has given me a million and one second chances that's an angel right there whoever you married if she's watching this man i salute you uh uh much respect for for that you know to uh to be able to go through that you know it's it's when when i'm when i'm asking the question for you and i'm saying you know flipping and going which side heath ledger is getting ready to do joker he's going to play the role of joker right and he goes and asks jack nicholson who played one of the jokers in the past and he says hey i'm thinking about playing joker i'm getting the offer what do you think and jack nicholson told him don't do it that is the one rule i highly recommend you not doing it because psychologically it mess with my head and you got to realize jack nicholson's done what's the one he did cuckoo's nest the old old movie you know playing a little bit off and nursing a grown man nursing a woman you know that scene and he says don't do joker this is coming probably one of the craziest actors of all time and heath ledger goes and does it and probably by the way i even have a statue of him over here i mean you gotta this guy goes and does the the joker and he crushes it and then he comes out and we know what happens with heath ledger right and there's a scene where i think it's tmz goes to the restaurant that jack nicholson's about to go into camera guy stands outside saying hey jack did you hear about what happened with heat ledger he said what happened he said uh they found him dead he says what says they found him dead he says i told him don't play joker there's a scene it's a very interesting scene when you look at this how dark of a place did you go if you were to say to the darkest of darkest places you went to playing these 500 different events you know people you're around the types of people you're around if you were to say pat i went to the darkest place these three places where the darkest place it was if you could do your best to paint a picture to us what what did that look like well uh i'll answer it this way i have found from my experience that there's two uh types of undercover operators there are are operatives that like have a costume that fits the role that they play and they come to work and they put that costume on and then they inherit that personality and they become that person whatever that whatever that year or gimmick is i was never good at that i was just like what you see is what you get i i talk to people on the street the same way i'm talking to you i i i interact with people i was not good at faking being someone um or at least having a personality other than my personality but i will say this um when we look at the world of good guys and bad guys and good versus evil and and whose side are you on i found that oftentimes the good people are not always all that good and the bad people oftentimes are not always that all that bad and so then i i have so many like character flaws and personality traits that are unflattering and things that i don't like about myself um and some of those i actually learned to put into play and to highlight my undercover world uh that there's there's like i have a dark side to me i try to project positivity i try to encourage people um and promote people but when i'm putting the right situation around the corner like i can be the nicest best guy in the world i can also be the dirtiest nastiest [ __ ] out there um and being able to be those two people that's i'm not sure that that's healthy or normal um but i played on that i i knew that about me and so i used it to my advantage i tried to treat people good i tried to like communicate with people in a proper way but man when you turned on me or when you got sideways with me or my partners or you put us in danger or whatever oh man i was i was the baddest cat on the planet give me one example oh my goodness there's so many to pick from there was a point during the hell's angels case where some of the suspects had gotten some legitimate information and our cover was compromised our cover was uh it was in risk it was like the truth was coming out and the the line was starting to crumble and i was confronted by some hell's angels on that exact thing on that exact information like this is what we're here um and i got so nasty and spun it back on them and turned it around on them that they were full of [ __ ] that they weren't hearing quite accurate information they knew me i had proven myself time and time again over years and years and cited events in sighted situations and got really uh frustrated and angry about it to the point that these people came into this meeting accusing me and in a position of power and i flipped that entire situation on them to the point where we left they were apologizing you're you're july 24th is that what you are are you july 24th yeah interesting now let me ask you if i was in high school with you were you a tough guy were you somebody i didn't want to screw with was that still were those two characters still there if i was in 10th grade with you no like and i don't carry myself like a tough guy like i don't walk down the street uh like looking for someone no but but let's just say if we're buddies if you and i are boys and i'm your i'm your right i'm your running mate like we party together we go to high school parties we we go with the girls we play football let's just say you're the star i'm the blocker i'm the titan we're really really tight okay somebody says something to me and disrespects me were you ready to brawl or no were you more like trying to defuse yeah you know what i um i i didn't and do not try to carry myself as a tough guy but um like like don't put me in a corner man and don't you know don't box me in i will walk away from a problem if i have opportunity i will run away from a problem if i have an opportunity but if you put me in the corner like we're gonna get it out and and like you might hurt me you might hit me or we're all going to the hospital um and you were always like that you were always like that even as a kid you know my my dad who was a huge influence in my life as a young man told me you know what the nastiest worst most vile things someone can say about you is what's the most disgusting name you can be called and as a child i'm i'm running through like like swear words vulgar names right he said let me tell you what the nastiest thing anybody can ever say about you s o f t soft never let anybody say you're soft i wrote this thinking maybe your dad's a coward but soft i like that your dad said never let anybody say you're soft wow that's pretty that's pretty big how old were you when he told me that was it probably you know seven eight years old now you said your dad was a carpenter like yeah my dad was a carpenter and he was uh like and he you know he kind of lived that same life he was a very like peaceful guy he was a sweet man but man that dude was tough he was tough and he was not someone that anybody wanted to tangle with uh jay craziest thing you've seen craziest [ __ ] you've seen ever on work craziest thing you've seen right like witness right in front of you not read about but you witnessed um one of the most disturbing things for me um like like i do not like dead bodies man i'm not i that's it's not my thing right i would not be a good homicide detective because i do not like dead bodies um we're working a cartel case uh with some pretty high-level narcotics trafficking and one of the people we're dealing with got sealed up in a 55 gallon steel drum and left out in the desert and when they recovered that barrel and popped the top of it off this this human being had become like stew like soup in that barrel and i was you know that was like the sight of that the smell of that the thought of someone being sealed alive in a steel barrel and left in the desert and the misery with the suffocation and the and all the things that i that i imagined went into that person's death i was like man i don't care i don't care what you're doing or i don't care who you are man nobody's got that comment that's not a way to go sammy the bull said if i had one way to go i'd want to get a shot in the head is that what he said he said i'd like to get shot in the head that's the way to go because you don't feel anything you do not want to go that way what a way to go what a way to go so okay so now you know the other part i always wonder is uh uh yesterday i was doing a call with some of my leaders and these are sales guys and in the world of sales there's prospecting in the world of prospecting there's getting rejected if you see you know when i was coming up there was a buddy of mine that was the best looking guy in the world but out of all our friends but the guy was afraid of getting rejected by girls and he was nervous what if she says no what if this what if that and he looked he looked like chisel he had the perfect jaw you know those guys that he just had the look and some of us weren't afraid of that and some of us got more play than he did but he was the best looking of the bunch when it comes down to prospecting a lot of people are afraid of uh talking to somebody that's a non-client or a girl because of anxiety it creates this level of anxiety right okay so most people today there are so many books being written about anxiety panic attacks all this other stuff how do you control your anxiety and your panic when you're wired you know if they take your jacket off or your shirt off you may be wire tap you may have stuff that they're going to see you can turn bad you can get killed your life's on the line you're thinking about your wife and two kids you're thinking about the stories over with how do you stay poised because there's many ways for people to tell if you're nervous if you're lying there's many different ways how do you keep yourself calm well you know the fear of failure is a huge motivator and and how do we react to that how do we handle that um you talked about your friendship with kobe um and and there's uh thousands of stories about kobe speaking on the motivating element of the fear of failure uh we saw it over and over in the last dance documentary with jordan how like he like actually invented things to be fearful of to motivate him um like i have a formula right and i think this formula applies to me i think it applies to you i believe it applies to uh sports teams businesses families it is the key for all of us to success how do we overcome that anxiety how do we we're nervous about something we have an objective we have you're trying to close a deal you're trying to accomplish something that's super important to you establish the purpose be clear on what your purpose is be clear on what your objective is have open and honest dialogue have transparent dialogue with the people around you because when you are open and honest and when you speak transparently with people you build trust you build two-way trust the people that you're speaking to the people that you've surrounded with yourself with hopefully because you're being open and honest will that will develop a trust in you and then that open communication you will build trust in them so you get this two-way trust so now you've got your purpose established you've like you've got open and honest communication and you've built trust when you have those three things together you can go solve problems and that is what any high achiever in the world does and it doesn't matter if you're flying the space shuttle or if you're pushing a room as a janitor it doesn't matter if you're in sales or whatever it is that you're doing if you're in law enforcement if you're on a sports team the people that are great and the units that are great solve problems think about it just think about you on a daily basis the number of problems and conflicts that you have to resolve people who are great at it ultimately are our our highest achievers so how do we solve problems through having a purpose having open communication with the people around us and building trust together when we have that together that's how we went down the moon that's how any great thing in the world has ever been accomplished establishing a purpose having open communication with the people around us building trust and then together going to solve that problem that was that was my my professional life in law enforcement in a nutshell none of us ever accomplished anything alone none of us ever get great achievements all by ourselves there's always people around us that help us and encourage us and give us new ideas and better ideas yeah but in those moments like when i think about you and i think about uh uh when you're when you're in that moment and you're getting a call and saying hey jay get all your guns and come meet us at this place why are we going to go kill somebody don't ask questions just show up this is the first year when you're a prospect and you're kind of going through it right and like [ __ ] what do we do and your partner at the time was sue pops right so you and him he's also another atf agent both of you guys are undercover you're getting a call like that i understand you're saying purpose i understand you're saying open dialogue and communication i understand building trust but you're in hell's angels their purpose is narcotics killing crime money women anything to break the law you know open dialogue communication what open communication and then what trust do you have with them how are you maintaining your anxiety in those heated moments when it all of a sudden comes up because there's a big difference between there's a big difference even with that when you're getting a call and saying grab your guns and come by okay you can call the atf and talk to them say guys i just got this call what the hell do i do and then they can coach you through it well you know jay here's what i suggest you do you and pops jump on a quick conference call together and you're getting a briefing fine but what if you're in the moment and you're on the bike and you're going and they said this bastard said this we got to go and do this and jay you know here's some cocaine in here let's do this and you're taking 20 hydroxycuts a day and six red bulls a day and you're trying to hold it together how are you staying calm in that moment in that moment i think that when we look at anything from the outside with without familiarity with it like like things appear to us to be overwhelmed so like for me i look at like some guy who can fly the space shuttle i'm like how does he process all that some guy that's going to operate on somebody's brain how do you have the confidence to take a knife and open up somebody's head and get in there and move things around but they're great at what they do and and what they do becomes routine through training repetition experience exercise all those things right and so when when you look at them and they're saying like man i can never do that people look at what i did and say i can never do that i'm like uh you know what yes you could if you had the experience and the training um and all these things that built up that i had built up over years it those things create confidence and with confidence comes comfort so you're asking like how did i how did i contain this anxiety from these situations that were spinning out of control that were in some cases life-and-death situations and what you say or what you did or how you acted or responded could be the factor on whether you lived or died right i had become so comfortable in my role and so confident in my role that like i felt like i could get through anything man i was bulletproof i had a bullet go through my chest 15 years before that i was bulletproof i had been through all these situations before like i had brainwashed myself into believing that i was the baddest cat on the streets but i was the smartest cat on the streets and so the question is in this comfort confidence equation what comes first what comes second are we naturally confident and then that allows us to operate comfortably or um do we in the undercover world do we build build a persona for ourselves that we're comfortable with and then it allows us to project confidence i've never been able to figure out which one comes first or second but i know this that the people i was dealing with the more time i spent with them i would start to build trust then i would build loyalty i would build their belief there was a point in time where some of the most violent intimidating men on the planet i have no god in my mind would have stepped in front of a bullet for jaybird davis wow because i had i had taken that that loyalty and that trust and that confidence and given them comfort and it had evolved into love in some cases now those same people when they found out that jaybird davis the gun-running debt collecting hitman was actually a federal agent named jay dobbins those same people were looking to put a baseball bat on the back of my head or drag a straight razor across my throat so it can change quickly especially in that world yeah a couple things by the way did you ever feel like those guys got so close to you where you started liking them and then you felt like you betrayed them did you ever feel like that or not at all i felt like that all the time throughout the course of my career i would extend pieces of myself to these people and i would let them into my world and i spent time with people who were sometimes uh involved in some very vicious wicked vile activities and you see that element of them and it's so disappointing in humanity right but then when you spend an extended amount of time with people like in an undercover environment you also see other elements of their life and you see redeeming qualities of their character so that when you see him do something wicked it's like man you're so much better than this and i'll give you an example i i befriended a couple guys in the hell's angels hung out with them enjoyed spending time with them they were smart they were they were handsome uh they had professional careers one was a stock broker one was involved in the investment world or in the financial world um these are smart guys man these are not uh these are are not like the stereotypical guys right um rode motorcycles with them went to parties with them drank with them shot pool with them they stayed at my house i stayed at their house i saw them around kids i saw them around women other people and actually developed an affection for these guys like i kind of like these guys right one night they took a woman at the mesa clubhouse a woman named cynthia garcia a mother of six she insulted them in the mesa clubhouse they boot-stopped her to the brink of death they thought she was dead they rolled her up in a piece of cut up carpeting put her in the trunk of a car drove her out to the desert east of phoenix in apache junction and stabbed her 27 times and cut her head off so like like trying to balance that trying to balance like interacting with these people having them sleep at your house you're asleep and they're asleep in the same house socializing with uh like like being socially interactive with them and then knowing that they have that capability that they have such low uh for lack of better terms respect or admiration for for humanity for another human being that they could take a defenseless woman who had i mean the mother of six and take her in the desert and saw her head off with a butt knife that's that's i don't even know what to say about that yeah that's that's dirty at the highest level i mean psychologically to know that somebody can get to that level i know the mob family will always use the word capable meaning he's capable he's capable meaning he can kill somebody if you cross the line he's willing to kill somebody but there's a different level to capability you know based on this topic going back to some something you said where you said i was invincible i got shot i almost died you know so for me i felt untouchable i brainwashed myself into thinking i'm you know uh toughest guy in the streets there's a book called david and goliath where the author talks about the fact that uh not david versus goliath as david engele the author talks about three different types of people who have close encounters with death whether it was bombing or something it was one person that missed it it's one person that should have died but didn't die the story was those who should have died but don't die can come out pushing the envelope so much more than they did before because they have this feeling of i'm untouchable i'm i'm immort you can't kill me you know there's you can't do nothing to me did you almost have that because some people come out after they get shot and have a close encounter they become more pansies they become scared they're kind of like oh my gosh what if this happens and then there's some that come obviously you came out like this so the story you're talking about the fact that that event made you even tougher thinking you were untouchable did you actually believe that you know along the lines of of that book and that explanation that analogy um to be quite honest with you at that point in time in my life i had i had written off my own death i i had accepted my own death i didn't know uh how it was going to come or by whose hand or what the circumstance might be but and this is not flattering to say i was so all in i was so committed to what i was doing that i knew that something tragic was beyond the reality could be it had become a probability and so but but when you can accept that and balance that i think it allowed me to operate even more aggressively if that makes any sense of course because i accepted my mortality and i realized that there was a probability that something bad or tragic was going to happen during this window over time and when you accept it it's like man you know like it actually it's not a good place to be because as an undercover operator it makes you dangerous and you become dangerous because you start ignoring signs you start ignoring red planets you start ignoring these things that you know and are trained to be triggers for you to heighten your sense of awareness and to pay closer attention you start ignoring and then you start saying man but i'm jaybird and all none of that applies to me that's crazy the level of recklessness but by the way if you read strong generals of all time these strong generals got to the point that you just said right now they have to get to a point where they accepted that like that that is a possibility that is an option i could go in there and die and if you don't accept that you're you're going to be a little bit timid as well so the opposite of that in your world of timidity you know you're you're too timid you can't really go to places that you need to push the envelope by the way you said i was fully all in and i was fully into my my craft were you saying were you all into atf all into jay or all into whatever camp you were a part of um probably all the above i i believed i believed in the mission that i was serving i believed in our battle against violent crime i i wholeheartedly um i believe in the in the objectives of our operation of our mission as to what we are trying to accomplish but probably with more as more and more time uh passed and as i got deeper and deeper into that role it became more and more focused on me and i think that my um regretfully uh to be quite honest with you um i started making selfish decisions instead of practical operational mission-driven decisions um the mission was to uh uncover violent crime find out who was um committing it who was ordering it who was organizing it who was benefiting from it um as i got deeper and deeper in that role my selfishness started narrowing those those decisions and that focus and i started making decisions for me i started making decisions like how am i going to advance in this organization how am i personally going to achieve um and like that that element of that team player element started to fade away and my selfishness started starting becoming more dominant and that's and that's that's that's just not good that's not good you know who was the chief disguise officer we sat down with in dc right outside the white house john a mendez yeah so we sat down with john mendes her husband is uh the gentleman from argo who played i mean you know the story and so i asked her i said john let me ask you this what makes for a good cia agent right undercover she gave me the craziest answer jay like literally i remember till today she said someone like you okay someone who is charming charismatic can sell can convince the other person that they're on their camp but when he takes down russia he never brags about it do you remember that and she says most guys cannot do that because it's so hard you just took down and you know the kremlin what do you mean you don't want to brag about it you want to tell a couple of your friends at a bar and say dude if you want a super bowl what do you say we just beat the patriots we just beat whatever he says in this world you can't brag about it to nobody my my friends my peers uh the the world of undercover operatives who've done like long-term deep cover infiltrations yeah it's it's a it's a fairly small fraternity right and something i've noticed about that's common amongst all these guys is that they're very humble they're very gracious they're very quick to brag on the success and the exploits and the achievements of their friends and their peers but on any given opportunity on any given day they feel that they are the best and that no one else should take that case i've interviewed a lot of those guys and i've been in some for whatever random reasons i've had a chance to spend a lot of time with them and very common true very common they're very similar when you when you talk to them and by the way they play a very important role it's not a job everybody wants to do what you're doing hats off to you you know because not a lot of people wake up in the morning saying i want to have jay's life uh jay similarities of what you saw with rodney king back in the days i had just come to the states i came to the states from iran i was at a refugee camp in germany came out here november 28 1990 and then rodney king i think happened in 92 and i was in la for you know at the time what similarities do you see with what happened with rodney king versus george floyd and black lives matter what we have going on today with protesting and riots man that's such it's a great question it's a question that a lot of people um want a lot of people want to avoid i think it's a question that a lot of white people want to avoid uh people in law enforcement to like sometimes want to avoid it um what i think is is the the common denominator is that there has been such a breakdown in trust in law enforcement there's there's there's no trust there like there's there's multiple reasons for uh why that has taken place over the course of time but the public no longer trusts the police to protect them whether that be real or whether that be uh uh false or imagined or fabricated it doesn't matter the trust is wrong so i i i truly think that um i i really think on the on the massive picture of this that god is looking at us and weeping i think god is crying right now um that that that we that we're all better than this you know and you look at trust and you look at race relations and all these things you know if you go to the to the declaration of independence which which gives us the life liberty and the pursuit of happiness and all men being created equal all men all men being created equal um i think god is is looking at us and he is weeping that we have failed to be able to live up to that it's a tough topic you know but it kind of goes back to what you said earlier which is uh the way you're able to do your work and keep anxiety done step number one was what purpose number two was communication and the last one is build trust and we're missing all those three we're not talking about purpose we're definitely not communicating and there's no trust so uh i i you know i my opinion is all of this stuff got started a lot of it got started and got reignited because roger goodell didn't have the audacity to meet with kaepernick right after he kneeled the first time i wonder what would have happened if kaepernick would have just gotten a call from godel and said hey we want to fly you out to the headquarters and sit down and talk to plus nfl pa and let's address this what can we do to support this imagine what would have happened if that issue was addressed immediately rather than waiting three six twelve months and it turned into what it is today so well i'll give you just one one perspective on that just one man's perspective i think that it is important for us all of us uh be open and willing to change your mind i i think many of us do not want to change our mind we do not want to change our viewpoint and we hear a compelling arguments on either side that should convince us to be open-minded um but like oftentimes our stubbornness doesn't want to let us change it it is okay to change your mind it is okay to say the way i felt about something five years ago or five days ago is different than how i feel about it today it's okay it's very hard to do i know what you're saying believe me i know what you're saying but it's very very hard to do especially when you have all these people that have been ingrained in a way of thinking by their parents and media and teachers and professors and churches and organizations they're part of in communities they lived in it's like betraying your heritage it's a very tough thing to do and i think one of the reasons why it's tough to do is because most people are not willing to reason if you cannot reason kiss a goodbye there's not much we can do about it you get it on the head and i think it's we've become all or none so if you are committed to the to the black lives matter movement or if you're committed to the blue lives matter movement right and and that is what you believe in talk about and i'm sympathetic to your to your cause to your agenda i want to support you i want to be in in many people's case supportive of both those both those things there's people in those camps that out of the 100 issues i might agree with you on 99 of those issues but if i don't agree with you on that 100th if i don't agree with you on 100 out of 100 i become the enemy like i agree with 99 of the of the things you believe in there's one that i'm stuck on hey if you're not all in with me if you don't agree with me across the board line item you're the enemy and man how do we like how do we ever improve or how do we ever get better if if if that's where we're at it's a very very good point it's a very very good point but you know the adversary and the and the media if he talk if they talk about 99 things we agree and who watches they have to talk about the one thing we disagree and because those get eyeballs and if those get eyeballs then all the other people are willing to pay the money to get the eyeballs because when they're showing the nielsen records of how many people watch our show that's what they get a million dollar contract versus a 200 000 contract so advertising dollars tend to speak let's talk lastly about the health angels which is what you were part of for a couple years uh what was it like just give us an idea what it was like when you got in and you know the experience of going through it i'll tell you what it wasn't like it wasn't like the stereotype that um that america holds of bikers these guys were not uh like this pack of greasy slimy dirty motorhead drug addicts were there people within that world that fit that stereotype of course but um they were smart they were especially street smart they conducted themselves socially a lot of times fairly pleasantly i didn't find that i was riding around with guys who were just like getting on a motorcycle to go out at night looking for someone to have their head caved in they were focused they were organized now they weren't necessarily um all of them book smart like educated college-educated booksmart but they have their phds in the street they have their phds and violence and intimidation and the motivating factor in it was hate and was money for what though what did they hate they hated uh their adversaries they hated people that were trying to uh that either insulted them that were disrespectful of them that wanted to infringe on their territory which the infringement on territory then comes back to money is because that's that's where money's made that's where money's made in in crime in in narcotics distribution and prostitution and all those things the the territory you you control and you own expands or or retracts your your your area of operations um so what was your time when you were there what years were you undercover 2001 through 2003. oh oh so you were at that laughlin event so you you were you at the laughlin event i was uh april 27 02. yes yes i was uh i was at uh a party with the hell's angels when the call came in and they all left the party that i was at and went to the harrah's casino and got into the big brawl and the shootout that was all captured on the casino cameras and um yeah and i mean that looks brutal what happened over there looks absolutely brutal what took place that's the big event they talk about i think that's a it was a demonstration of the brazenness and i think it was a demonstration of the commitment and the brotherhood and the loyalty that um they could rally up together that quickly they could uh move their location that quickly and then when they arrived on scene they did not care everybody knows uh gambling casino has got 10 000 cameras around watching everything they didn't care um and i thought a very interesting element is that when the when the battle settled there were mongol vests screwing around where they had stripped off their colors trying to escape stuffed in air vents stuffed in garbage cans some were seen floating down the river there was a casino was on the colorado river um not one house angel vest was recovered those guys were not did not would not take off their colors they were so committed to that patch to that death head to that name they they they were gonna uh they were gonna win that fight or die trying but they were not gonna take those cuts off so you're saying uh the the hells dangers were more proud and brutal than mongols were is that what you're saying i i don't know if i use those terms but i'll say this um the prospecting process the phases for a house angel are extensive and they're long like a minimum mandatory 365 days prospecting as a hells angel before you can even be considered to get your cut um yeah i saw that other gangs like there was times got it where the mongols were actually approaching street gang members saying hey here's a mango's vest learn how to ride a motorcycle if you have to work for something if you have to suffer for something if you have to sacrifice for something it's more important to you that is why organizations um not just in biker land uh sports teams all muslims you suffer and sacrifice and spend time so that when you get it it's me it has me and those angels they know that what they went through to get that cut and they were uh not going to give it up whereas if someone from another biker gang if it just got handed to you what meaning does that truly have what value is that shooting at that makes sense so standards and expectations were higher maybe that's a way of putting it you know uh to to get in and become a made man essentially for uh a angels uh hell's angels was higher than it was to become a mongol well then when you're a member of the hell's angels you are at the you are at the top of the biker mountain you are the king of the mountain um any any housewife any mechanic any school teacher police officer if you say biker automatically what comes into their mind is the hell's engines and when you were at the top when you're at the top of the mountain everybody underneath you wants to knock you out everybody wants that position and so their adversaries are everybody everybody wants to be them and so what does that do that creates paranoia in them everybody's after us everybody hates us everybody wants to be us um and that's that's that's a bad uh formula man that's bad chemistry bad chemistry why because you think internally people are dividing you and maybe somebody on the inside is going to go and tip off what we're doing strategies is that what it is you're paranoid you're worried about maintaining your status you know that uh that everybody wants to be the king of the mountain you know what if you're the um if you're the heavyweight champion of the world you don't get to just say i'm the new heavyweight champion in the world you got to knock that cat out to take the belt and they know that everybody wants to come and knock them out right that is right so just to put some optics out there some numbers out there hells angels 2500 members uh uh mongols 500 hells angels had 230 different chapters mongols had like 12 different chapters hells angels the founder was sunny is it sunny berger sunny sunny barger is a founder and then and then you have on the other side with uh uh mongols was uh what's his name uh penny penny uh roger penny am i saying it right he was a member he was a shot caller he was a shot caller at the time so when these guys were facing off each other and you are kind of going in with your um partner pops and he's also an atf by the way he he does not look like an atf agent like he is a qualified i couldn't even tell like he looked like a guy that was partying all the time using drugs and women he pla he's either an incredible actor or he got really deep into it well let me qualify that just a little bit pops was a confidential informant he was not atf so there's he he was in essence working with us for us um but he was not a badge carrying agent he was a confidential informer so how long had he been himself with the hell's angels well he'd been with them uh the same time i was with them i brought him with me but like he hit it on the head there's no faking pops likes experiences that brought him to that point in time you cannot uh you cannot train through that you can't fake that you had to have lived that life to look and act like that did you trust him i did i did i trusted pops i had built uh you know loyalty with him well before we work the hells angels case i've worked on many operations with them and i did trust them and um because i wonder sometimes i'm like could you even trust him you know like if he's your partner can you fully trust him because maybe he can be bought with you know money women drugs i mean what's his motive he made you know he made some mistakes along the way he got a little bit loose at times he needed to be tightened up you know and jerk his leash keep him online but did i trust him to answer that question as simply as it was asked do i trust him yes i did that's good that's interesting yeah that dynamic is you always wonder especially now that you're telling me he was an atf he was just somebody as an informant that was helping out how how far did you have to go to show loyalty you know how far did you have to go to show loyalty meaning hey did you drugs women crime killing shooting how how far did you go when they said damn this guy is actually legit well i can answer that with one story when i first came into the hells angels i approached the leadership and said what are the rules like like what like what what do you expect of me i'd want to be a good hell's angel i'm you know i've been trained um and the leader of my uh charter said it's your job to kill models that's what we do so for in essence two years i took that information and put it in my back pocket right and held on to that that mindset that mantra as the case was beginning to end um i told the hell's angels there's a mongol in mexico and he's uh threatening us and threatening to like import narcotics into our area and i need to go down there and kill him that's that's what i'm going to do i'm going to go kill him on behalf of the band the people i spoke to were 100 behind him gave me the gun to do it told me how to do it all these things right so go to mexico kill this model bury them in a you know shallow grave take some pictures of them all bloodied up and shot up and beat bring them back to the hell's angels tell them tell the house angels the story of how we had killed the mongol in mexico and and gave them hard cold evidence of the murder that is ultimately what got us over the top where they gave us pests and made us members what they didn't know and what we didn't tell them is that an entire scheme was a fabrication i had told the mom of the angels about this bond with mexico and then with the use of our team and a homicide detective we went out in the desert outside of phoenix and completely fabricated a murder scene and then took the evidence that we had created from our homemade murderer put it in a fedex box had it shipped to my undercover house from mexico so that it would look right be credible um all those things presented the information to the hell's angels and you know one of the elements that's key to undercover work is inaccurate conclusions from accurate observations inaccurate conclusions from accurate observations they accurately heard my story they accurately saw the bloody mongol vessel they saw the pictures of the model in the in the shallow grave in the desert with his hands and his feet duct taped and his brain spilled out in the dirt they accurately saw that they inaccurately concluded that i was telling them the truth and had committed a murder and so when you say how far when your question how far did we have to go to gain acceptance we went to the acceptance where we built a homicide and then sold the fact that we were murderers two murderers in order to get inside the game is it true that you use the cow's stomach to make it seem like the brain was shot up there were cow parts we went to a butcher our homicide detective went through a butcher we had a pound blood we got cow carts like i said earlier like i'm not a big fan of dead bodies but when i looked at this crime scene i was like oh my god that thing's dead like i there was no doubt in my mind this dude's dead you know when i talked to philly and eddie or i talked to sammy or i talked to michael or frank collado or any of these guys that were in the mob world i asked him how much was uh the because you know in the mob side it's more about the lifestyle you know you have money you're rich you're partying coats you know all this stuff and then there's the code you live by but there's women there's partying there's that other attractive part to it as well new york was there hardcore partying going on as well or you were saying no girls with three missing tooth and all that stuff well were you guys partying with woman non-stop there was both there were guys that like you know were professionals and partied like no one else right there was also guys that i ran around with who went to the gym three times a day and uh didn't drink didn't smoke didn't use drugs meal prepped set their alarms for three o'clock in the morning so they could get up and eat a chicken breast because they needed an infusion of protein and there was everything in between which uh which was good and made it interesting and it also made it you didn't have to fit into one box to be accepted because there were so many different types of people so you don't have a crazy crazy party story uh with them oh man i mean there's parties you know like cocaine bashes and nitrous oxide parties and and and girls running around and music glaring and booze flowing and fights and and people [ __ ] in the corner and and all that kind of stuff that's that was normal i was a normal life for that you know what i don't know that i would say it was normal but it wasn't abnormal okay yeah that makes sense so for somebody that's watching this you you keep hearing about ms-13 we some people that know biker they know hell's angels they know mongols banditos obviously we know some of the names right you hear about all these other gangs that are out there which one how vicious were they comparable to an ms-13 i think that uh the hell's angels if you do not cross them if you do not cross their business if you do not cross their territory you may very well never notice that they're there um whereas you know the ms-13 which like to use your example and you probably of all people can can relate to this best when you grow up in a culture and in a society where human beings and humanity is viewed differently than it is in america the things that take place that are shocking to us as americans for some people are everyday common events so if you grew up in san salvador and you see people being beheaded or being hacked up with machetes or being tortured publicly and bodies scattered in the street and that is what you grew up with that is what you grew up with and that's not abnormal to you then you come here and you act like that and we are appalled and shocked and you're just acting what's like what you know that makes a lot of sense because you know sometimes even when i tell some stories from iran people are like yeah whatever he's probably making it up i'm like no and then you go talk to six other iranians they're like yeah that's what happened like no way yeah that was a life interest that's kind of how i was in iran no way in the world yeah well i guess i have to believe it now because i'm hearing it from six different people that are not connected to each other probably what you saw as a child what what some of these people see in in some of these countries as children um is is so far outside our american north american realm of possibility that what to us is appalling to other people to actually children in the world is commonplace yeah i i uh i totally agree i totally agree when i'm sometimes i bought my first truck from mms 13 leader in la and the story is a funny story because my dad's like i found this artist that i want to show you he wants to sell you the truck and i said great i'd love to be able to tell my friends in school i bought a car from an artist so i go to upland which is where the mechanic shop was and i go to upland and says yeah you know it's that guy let me treat this a really nice guy it's good to me and i go there everything ms-13 everything and he's got this nice uh chevy s10 long bed dropped 144 spokes low profile 14 inch wheels system subwoof the whole nine and he says here's my friend you know he's an artist and i'm like and he's part of a very special community this community is called ms-13 i'm like dad ms-13 is one of the most vic you know vicious gangs out there no he's very nice to me anyways i end up buying the car first weekend i'm in hollywood partying i'm 16 years old about to be 16 years old at that time i uh i got my license a little bit earlier i'm at hollywood partying and cops helicopter above us it's me and three of my friends were in the truck cops from behind me cops in front of me helicopter comes they drop get out of the car get up we all get out the car they thought i was him and i had bought the car from him and so because it hadn't yet been registered under my name because it was uh just a week we got arrested that night and then once they found out i'm not a gangster they let us go and they said oh wrong person we got but that was my experience with ms-13 it's a very uh um interesting gang uh in la and uh rumor has it they can go places that others are not willing to go through i mean not just rumors you hear about the stories that you read about how bad of a time is it right now jay to be a gangster how bad of a time is it right now to be a criminal today's marketplace somebody is looking at the saying you know what i'm considering being a criminal one day how bad of a time is it today to be a criminal and a street gang i think as we speak today at this very moment whatever what is it june 24th 25th um it's probably really good because the cops are so distracted uh the cops are for lack of better terms handcuffed police departments are being defunded um if if i was a narcotics trafficker i would be uh pushing as much dope as i can push right now because i'd be like hey man that enemy law enforcement is distracted right now their resources are divided their resources are being diminished now is my window i was totally expecting you to say the complete opposite answer and the way you broke it down makes so much sense makes so much sense the reason why i thought you were going to go to the area of it's a terrible time to be a criminal right now because there's phones everywhere social media cameras you got 330 million cameras pretty much that everybody can catch you doing the wrong thing but no you're saying the people who are criminals number one enemy which is law enforcement they're crippled right now this is a great time to be a criminal i think i think some of these social experiments that are taking place in some of these communities without cops um and with men where and where cops are not welcome or not wanted or being defunded um i fear that those communities are going to find out the hard way um how important law enforcement is but more importantly how good how important good law enforcement is not just law enforcement like um like the the the cops the people in the coptic we have to up our game we have to be better we have to improve like in all areas are you optimistic are you optimistic with uh what's going to happen here soon are you a little bit paranoid and concerned i'm optimistic um in the in the long haul um that i i think what's taking place right now is important and i think that this is going to be in hindsight a great time in our country because i think so much awareness is being brought like even if we don't agree with how that awareness is coming about if we don't agree with some of the tactics the awareness is nonetheless being brought it's being forced into our face um i think we have to improve and we have to get better to move forward as a society and culture i think down the road on the long term we will be better i think on the short term i think things will get worse before they get better on the short term when you say worse what do you mean worse than riots and protesting i just think that um i i think that the uh the militancy in all these groups um is is not going to be satisfied until they get every single thing that they demand and um we're still we're still ways away on a lot of those issues a long ways away on some of those issues um a very long ways away on some of those issues and um the the various factions and people on in every with every agenda you can imagine out there are empowered to fight right now um and maybe they should be maybe maybe this was maybe what we're going through uh uh is is necessary to create the change we need to be become who we should be am i misreading you if i feel like you're walking on excels right now wanting to say what you're really thinking about or no um i don't think i don't feel like i'm walking on ratios but i do think that right now like words are have never been more important words have never been more important because um what we say and how we say it is is scrutinized and it's critiqued and it's manipulated and twisted at times and so when i'm when i'm calculated and when i'm trying to answer i just realize how important words are um and important to who's hearing them yeah what what makes me because i'm constantly talking about different uh you know in our company we're 50 50 50 left 50 right you know and you know whatever let's just say we're 45 45 we got 10 independent or people that could care let's had a call this morning with one of our guys at 7 30. i said politically which way do you lean he says honestly i have no idea what i am i said it's actually not a bad place to be if you don't know who you are you're probably enjoying life more than some people who have taken a position but i've never seen more powerful people be careful with the words they're choosing today i've never ever seen more powerful influential people who are worried about what they're going to say next because of the consequences they may face from a community that may come back saying that was offensive that could hurt them in their lives business financially in any possible way and i'm seeing that across the board i think someone like yourself who's hosting the show i think someone like myself who's a guest um we we want to say how we feel and we want to like be articulate and accurate about it but we also want to be sensitive to other people's views not everybody thinks or feels the same way i do i want to be respectful of them and i have to be careful about what i say and how i say it i own what i say and it's not like i'm incapable of making a mistake or miss speaking on something but like you look at all these factions out there do black lives matter yes i believe they do and i support what they are trying to accomplish do blue lives matter yes i do i support like rebuilding the trust and rebuilding training and making that more professional um but like there's some people that don't want that that won't allow you to like support both sides you have to pick one or the other and and it's it's a it's a again it's a um i i just keep hearing them and i just keep hearing and i wonder like what is needed because uh uh one way of pushing the agenda is when the opposition just decides to stay quiet not say anything because they don't want to piss the wrong person off and that's exactly where they want you to be at for you to be frightened of saying what you really need to say for other people to say [ __ ] i agree with them you know but again weird times we're living in uh we're gonna do our part and we're gonna bring guests on to talk on topics that are gonna be getting people to think and you definitely made me think today from sitting down with you jay i salute you for the life you lived and the service you brought uh god knows how many thousands of lives you've saved that we can't count on you know one day when you go upstairs i'm sure you're going to have to talk to him about some of the parties you did or some of the people you hung out with and things you did but i'm sure he's also going to tell you listen you save thousands of lives on what you do with your job i salute you from me to you thank you for your service and the folks if you're watching this we're going to put a link to his book below no angel if you haven't purchased it i highly recommend you get a new york time bestseller we'll put the link below and jay once again thank you so much for coming out and being a guest somebody team and i really appreciate it thank you very much it was a lot of fun so we've done a lot of bob interviews we've never done anything that has to do with hell's angels and this was a complete different angle talking to jay dobbins who's the right guy to talk about this topic so i have two other interviews i want you to watch one of them is with the chief disguise officer jonah mendes which is who i talked about in the interview she's the one that put a whole mask on and when by president bush senior and president bush couldn't recognize her because they were deciding to take cia to a whole different place it's a brilliant interview if you not watch and the other one is with a f an fbi agent that i interviewed michael mcgowan who did some things having to do with el chapo very very different story and it's possibly being picked up by sly if you haven't heard his story click on that to watch it and if you've not subscribed to the channel please do so thanks for watching everybody take care bye

Channel: Valuetainment

Views: 166,697

Rating: 4.7341652 out of 5

Keywords: Entrepreneur, Entrepreneurs, Entrepreneurship, Entrepreneur Motivation, Entrepreneur Advice, Startup Entrepreneurs, valuetainment, patrick bet david

Id: MFAy95Bd4eg

Length: 96min 32sec (5792 seconds)

Published: Fri Aug 14 2020