by the time I've done my scam I'm already gone now you're the lead guy but there's some other people involved I figured out how to get Social Security to issue Social Security numbers to people that didn't exist that's crazy to me Brandon green Michael White Lee black reservoirs oh yeah you always think you're clever until the judge is looking at you going what are you doing I created banks satisfy the loan on a house and I applied the loans at all the lenders at the same time and they all lend me money so it was easy $400,000 you made I got your high school transcripts I got everything I then go in the DMV I get a driver's license I got a house I got whatever I want who's at fault here they'll be arresting me as Garry Sullivan the male prostitute the male prostitute it's a homeless guy he's blowing guys for 20 bucks a pop I don't know if he's got a driver's license I know it's horrible I feel bad not judging me are you at this point Hardy hardcore alcohol drugs rock and roll or no this chicks a maniac we got had four thousand and a double bag we're spending money like you can't believe the FBI was waiting to catch me everybody had given me up I mean I'm too cute to go to prison this is not gonna work out well for me I know it's coming down I'm just gonna pull out two or three million dollars and I'm leaving that would have been it you think so nothing's changed it's so right for fraud did you ever think you would make it take sweet victory I know this slice yeah why would you bet on Goliath well we got red tape now you came in given values contagious this world of entrepreneurs we can evaluate this happy run homey look what I become I'm the one [Music] my guest today's got a special story and let me tell you why I brought him on board this is a man who in two years figuring out ways how to fraud the bank he made eleven and a half million dollars eventually he was on America's most wanted list secret service specifically FBI was after him three years they couldn't catch him eventually they caught him in 2006-2007 he got 26 years he just got out six seven months ago July of 2019 and he's got a book out called shark and the housing pool on the run with the Secret Service's most wanted list having said that my guest today Matthew Cox Matthew thanks for coming out sure no problem so this is you gotta you got a crazy story here man what's what's the story with you learning how to go up against the banks and you know make eleven and a half million dollars in two years and some say forty million some say other numbers so how did you even get into this business see how did I get in the business I was I graduated USF with a degree in fine arts which is essentially you know I don't want to say useless but I couldn't make any real money doing that I have a learning disability I tried I actually tried my hand at being an insurance adjuster got my two twenty property casualty license in Florida became an insurance adjuster was laid off twice that industry was not working for me I had a girlfriend that had gotten a job working for a subprime lender and she said you're made for this you've got to do this you absolutely would be phenomenal at this and the nice thing was all the paperwork was done by the processor so all I really had to do was get clients bring him in structure the deal and most of the paperwork that was processed by the processor so it worked really well like the first month I think I closed like I closed like like a couple of loans next month was like for loans and it was six then it was eight then it was 10 then they made me a branch manager eventually but within a year so I opened my own mortgage company so you left them I left them who were you with that first it was Eagle lending it was a legal limit yeah well they went under yeah well a lot of them do yeah some of them you remember like you know there was big names that you would remember yeah so Eagle ending this is in Florida well this was in yes this was in Florida but they were in several several states okay and so a year later you decided to start showing deal right and what happens next I hired a bunch of brokers I had probably a dozen guys working there and the problem was it at Eagle essentially sorry essentially at Eagle lending very really a first loan I ever did everything looked great except for one piece of paper which was a verification of of rent my client or my my borrower had a 30-day late my manager told me get rid of the 30-day late you got a loan you'll make thirty five hundred bucks if you send this to underwriting the way it is you're done mm-hmm so she actually pulled out a bottle of white out and gave it to me said white it out make a copy so I made a copy I mean I was - I'd never done anything wrong before made a copy sent it in sweated bullets for four or five days went through underwriting everything's great loan clothes I got a check for 3500 bucks you know it in Bolden me and the next guy if he had made fifty five thousand dollars he's going to get a loan but he made forty five so if that four became a five we've got a loan well I changed the W - you did that over there or you started doing it I started doing it at Lynette Eagle oh I'd ego net Eagles but then when I started my own place it just it just ramped up and before you know what all the guys working for me are doing fraudulent loans and we just became a you know a mill I'm not saying all the loans were fraudulent but a good portion of the loans were fraudulent loans when you were doing it at your place can I ask you a question about Eagle sure when you were there let me ask you this because sometimes in the world I was in LA and when I was in LA I mean countrywide new century you remember do you remember these guys yeah guys are making full five hundred six hundred thousand dollars per month is what they're making and it's no income no assets creative financing you know don't worry about it everyone's got a seven twenty seven forty all this other stuff some of the guys that did it right came from a place that taught the right habits some of the guys that picked up the bad habits came from a place that was very normal to have the bad habits would you say you picked up some of those bad habits from being that eagle or even prior to that you kind of figured out some creative ways to make money even as a kid in high school or coming out of high school yeah I know I I really didn't it was it was definitely at at Eagle and it started with the with my the manager of the store and she was she was making money she was closing loans I was desperate to make money I was desperate not to end up living in my parents spare room and and I just slowly it just it just started creeping up on me before you knew it it was just all-consuming I mean I I you know and and look I enjoyed it that the fact that matter is is that you know getting over on somebody on the on the banking industry on an underwriter and kind of faking them out or something it there's a certain I guess perverse pleasure and that you know you start if you feel good you feel smart you feel sharp like wow it really did something the loan closes you make a chunk of money and it just it just it just got bigger and bigger expanded from there and of course my brokers are all doing it now and and there's so many people in the industry subprime was so corrupt at the time even when we got caught and we got caught all the time I got caught with a couple million dollars from a bank one time talk to the guy it was um Pinnacle Bank Corp out of Chicago talked to the owner he called me up he's like look we've got clearly this is fraud we pulled all these files we got a couple million dollars they'd already sold a million to household bank and I'm sitting there saying look if if you're trying to tell me that you want me to buy back two million dollars that's not gonna happen so we need to come up with another solution here and he goes okay well nobody want look here's nobody wants the FBI digging through their files here so we're gonna go ahead and sell this million to household in a in a in a sale next week so if any of them come back on us just promise you'll help us get rid of them of course the likelihood that they were gonna catch that fraud two months or three months later was it was very unlikely so of course that sold in and I mean I got called multiple times it eventually you know eventually a broker that had worked for me got caught and committing fraud and she wore wire she and her husband wore wire on me because they knew I had been doing fraud and they got me to admit things on you know on tape and so the FBI came in they they said look we're going to indict you and so they indicted me well they did actually I've waited a night it doesn't matter you know essentially they they said you plead guilty to this fraud and you lose your mortgage company and so I said okay I mean by that point I think when the FBI came in which was at a later time they said that the mortgage company they they estimated it had done it like 40 million in bad loans over the course of like two or three years but that doesn't mean that that's loss just means that you got a two hundred thousand dollar loan that you shouldn't have gotten mm-hmm and they're saying that's a bad loan that's two that's two hundred thousand dollars and bad loans well you made the payments or maybe you didn't I don't know but it's about they estimated around forty million so at that point at that point I you know I should have claimed bankruptcy should have moved in with mom and dad but I've got I've got bills I don't want to take a step back so I decided to go ahead and and escalate the fraud and I decided to start flipping houses in an area of Tampa known as bore City Tampa Heights area I don't know if you've familiar where it's a nice area yes at the time it was rough it was rough I mean the median house the median house in that area was probably worth fifty to sixty thousand dollars God so I go in and I start buying up houses the problem with buying those houses is that the people that live in those areas don't they don't have good credit they don't have their down payments you know they quit their job a week before the loan closes and so you're struggling against your buyers so what I decided was that if I could get around the buyer somehow to borrow the money against the houses which which meant I had to start creating the buyers so I started creating my own buyers and creating synthetic identities and I figured out how to get Social Security to issue social security numbers to people that didn't exist and and they were ready creatively yeah it was it was it was you know I want to say it was difficult but it was it was really a lot of phone calls they were just coming up with the documents and it wasn't it was complicated but it wasn't once I got the system down it wasn't that hard it Social Security will issue a Social Security number to a child under the age of twelve twelve months old without the child being present so all you have to do as the parent is show up with the birth certificate and the shot record and you say my child was born I never got a Social Security number issued and they'll issue a social security number to a child who's ten months old without seeing the child and of course I would go in using a fake ID and they would check the computer they go you're right this child exists but we don't have a social security number for him we will issue the social security number they mail it to you so then I would go with that social security number I would then order three secured credit cards make the payments for six months and suddenly I have six hundred and 690 credit scores you know six fifty seven ten credit scores so I've got this perfect synthetic individual that can now buy my houses for forty grand so I'm buying a house for forty grand the problem is I would clean it up a little bit and even if I sold it at top dollar for sixty or seventy I'm making 30 grand 25 grand it's not worth it so that the issue is you need to borrow more I need you to borrow more money in this synthetic individual name so I need to get the houses to appraise higher so I was dating a girl at the title at a title company and she explained to me how how sales were recorded and of course do you know anything about appraisals you probably know which part well I like to appraise a house yeah of course I know would oh yeah right you need an appraisal well the way they gauged the value of the home is they look and they find three other comparable sales in the area within one mile with that sold within one year and so what I did was I said okay well if I'm trying to sell this house for 150 thousand I can't get an appraisal unless I can find comparable sales and she explained that look if you pay the extra doc stamps on that on the sale those recordings will not go for they won't record at 50 they were recorded 150 or 200 if you pay an extra seven hundred dollars it adds a hundred thousand to it so now I'm buying houses for fifty and I'm recording the value at 150 or 200 and I'm doing it all over the place in the name of synthetic and intimate individuals don't exist and this was the dumbest part is that I'm naming these guys James red Brandon green Michael white Lea black yeah Reservoir Dogs just I mean and I thought it was so clever I really did you know you always think you're clever until the judge is looking at you going you know what are you doing you're just suddenly you're always okay that was a jackass move my bad but so I've got all these houses and these guys buying he's buying five houses we're recording the values for 150 to 200 thousand the appraisers the banks are I'm ordering an appraisal from the bank countrywide is coming in and saying they're their own appraisers coming out and they're they're looking at they're going yeah it's worth two hundred thousand there's a comp two blocks away here three blocks over here they don't realize I own all those comps in various names I'm creating the market can I go back on a title when he said you pay $700 a little bit more the comps are going to favor you who helps the benefit the comps for you is there somebody that puts bigger numbers who is that person what happens is a lot by your house for 50,000 okay and I close obviously a title company that I know okay person and then I either would say I want attack I want a construction credit for a hundred thousand dollars added to this fifty thousand our sale so now they would say well that would make the sale 150 thousand Matt it's going to cost you an extra seven hundred in taxes and I would say that's fine I'll pay the extra seven hundred because it's point 0:07 for every hundred thousand seven hundred bucks so okay so it's noting that the title represented so fraudulent you just inks gonna cost another hundred thousand dollars on construction alone 0.7% seven hundred bucks it's $150,000 on it's not a $50,000 or even if I bought it from you for 50 and I explained to the title company let me record it I'll bring it down there and record it and they go if they know me they're like okay well why well I want to get a copy of the recorded deed okay no problem Matt I go down I fill out the paper I change the paperwork right then I just add a check for $700 I recorded it I go to the clerk here you go they go okay 150 oh okay it's 200 you added an extra $900 hmm jumps up almost 100 and instead of a hundred thousand 140,000 plus the 50 now it's 190 mm-hmm so I'm doing that and so the whole market shoots up through the roof it goes from like the a medium price of 60,000 to like 190 to 200 I think by the time I was done they said it was at 250 so but all these guys are buying five houses so James read owns five houses worth two hundred thousand a piece that he bought for he's got two hundred thousand I'm borrowing a million dollars on these houses so I'm borrowing a million dollars on houses that I've got maybe 250 and another hundred thousand dollars to clean up a little bit I'm making six or seven hundred thousand dollars for each one of these guys and there's several people involved so this is what this is what we were doing this there's several people now you're the lead guy but there's some other people involved correct I got now let me ask you if you don't mind let's go back to when you started your own mortgage company until you had that issue when you start your mortgage company what were some of the forms of creative financing that you guys were doing because I've I've heard many different forms what were some of the ones you guys did you know the thing is a lot of people talk about the liar loans yes you were mentioning the problem with the liar loans is that you dip eclis the person still has to have decent credit you come on no income no assets right yeah over 720 or 680 right so if I've got some guy that works at tire Kingdom who's got a 590 he's not getting a liar loan but what I can do is I can get him a subprime loan if I can prove his income so we would change his w-2s and pay stubs to say he made enough money and we would fake his down payment so I created banks online I created banks I would make a website that said Bank of Ybor and you could go to the website and looked at it looked like a legitimate small bank and I had bank statements and so if the underwriter asked for the bank statements because you need to prove that you had the your down payment in the bank for 90 days so this guy who works for Tire Kingdom has bad credit and been at three different jobs in the last two years we would either fix his credit sorry fix his w2 so that he made enough money or we would say he worked at a place where he didn't work but we said he worked there for five years and some friend of mine owned the business and would say that now I'd come up with a w toothpaste dadada they would verify his employment then his we would verify his his down payment was in Bank of Ybor well there is no Bank of Ybor so if they said well we want bank statements okay we'd send him I had original bank statements I'd color bank statements they look perfect we send him the underwriting if underwriting called to verify it someone would open would answer the phone bank of Ybor help may help you sure hold on let me get you Jennifer yeah we'd get on the board internally working for you no no there's no banker no no I totally get it but the person that would answer this is Bank of Ybor they're in your office yeah we'd answer banker that's why I'm saying yes okay and back you know they're typing as if they're checking to see if this guy's a real guy okay they faxed over a verification of deposit if they have to it it seemed very legitimate to countrywide who would then lend a hundred ninety thousand dollars on a house that was worth 40 we maybe put 10 into it so you know you end up making 100 to 150 thousand dollars for each loan and this guy's borrowing a million dollars like this so we're making a chunk of money so so the other party said the the would he call it white out you know the whole white out thing which was very big I mean that's what you did with Eagle right right learn the one time doing what about it just do wide-eyed unchanged it a it was forgery there which you white up with the signature and there was what you just did right now what you talked about there was many different creative methods to getting financing done what were some other methods that you you know maybe you guys that are heard about that was very unique that you don't quite often hear out there in the mortgage industry you know the stuff that I did is so it's just so it's so over the top you can't it's like one of the things I did was to get obtain financing was I would satisfy the loans on my own houses so I buy a house for two or two hundred thousand it's got a hundred and ninety thousand dollar mortgage I'd create a false satisfaction of a false satisfaction and you you know when you when you borrow money from Bank of America and you get a mortgage on your house and it gets paid off you paid it off how does public records know it was paid off Bank of America sends a satisfaction of mortgage saying hey you know Patrick borrowed $200,000 but he paid it off here's the satisfaction proving he paid it off and they record that and now it no longer exists it's there but anybody who searches the title can see that there that mortgage has been satisfied does that the question is when that document arrives does anybody ever call at public records does anyone at public records call Bank of America to verify that they mailed in that document and the answer is no till today till today as far as I know faraman I've talked to a couple title guys it's a couple years ago I talked to a guy that in prison that worked at a title company said oh absolutely not nobody's nobody's verifying those because it's a recording system so what I would do is I would borrow money two hundred thousand dollars on a piece of property then I would create that a satisfaction of mortgage from the lender let's say mortgage warehouse for instance so I create a satisfaction of mortgage from mortgage warehouse and I've done them from everybody Bank of America Lock oviya countrywide son trust tons of them so you I would then go downtown I'd say hey man listen they mailed me this but I called them and asked them what it was they said they were supposed to mail to you and public records would say oh you're right this happens sometimes and they would go ahead and record it and so the document gets mailed back to the person that created it well of course that's countrywide but they don't know there's there's just forty thousand countrywide addresses out there probably not probably let's say four hundred they don't know they don't know where their mailing it says return to sender countrywide and then it's got an address well I just give an address to some vacant house so they'd mail it to a vacant house I go a couple days later and pull it out I've got it it's recorded now when I call the lawyers title and say hey can you pull the title on my house to see if anything shows up they pull the title and they go yeah you don't have anything on your house does the mortgage show up no there's no mortgages great I then turn around go to SunTrust Bank or whoever I want and I say look I need to borrow two hundred thousand on my house they order a title their title comes back and says nothing's uh nothing's on no no title on your nope no mortgage on your house great I need to borrow two hundred thousand dollars that you're sure no problem they pulled my credit they lend me the money I borrowed the money I borrowed a million dollars like five mortgages on my own personal hot residents like a million dollars on a house that honestly wasn't worth two hundred thousand borrowed my bar at one point was it it was it nine hundred thousand nine hundred thousand in a house another one I borrowed four or five hundred thousand on a few different houses that were only worth the me a hundred got three or four mortgages on them just by satisfying alone or by doing shotgunning which is when you satisfy the loan on the house so that I don't owe anything on this house I probably do but I satisfy the loan so what I do is I turn around I go to four different lenders or five different lenders and I apply for loans that all the lenders at the same time they all search the title for the house there's nothing on the house there's no mortgage showing up on the house and they all lend me money well they mail in their documents so when they arrive to arrive on Monday one arrives on Tuesday when arrives on Friday all the clerk does is recorded to record it they scan it shows up they scan it they show it doesn't matter if there's five different mortgages showing up it's not illegal the clerk isn't it's not her responsibility to say hey this is odd there's five mortgages on this house the point is is that every closing I go to I walk away with a check for one hundred fifty thousand so now I've borrowed six hundred thousand dollars on this house that's worth 150 or 200 and it's called shotgunning so now I've got six hundred thousand I deposited in the bank I pull out all the money with any month or two I don't even have to make a payment because I just take off because I probably did it in somebody else's name or some of some fictitious person I've done that when I was on the run I did that over and over again so it was easy for hundred thousand dollars you're making oh yeah it's like a million I did 1.3 million did nine hundred thousand one time but at four hundred thousand when I took off on the run I I had I always say this I had no money I had about 80 grand but to be on the run with 80 grand that's nothing the way I was spending money at the time so I went straight to Atlanta I've got like four hundred thousand dollars I rented a house satisfy the loan borrowed 400,000 pulled the money out of the bank took off but I didn't part of my name obviously there's a fictitious no the this this is a pretty crazy stuff I want to get a little bit deeper into it but let's go back to the part where you're getting socials under the age of 12 you're going in here's the idea you give the fake ID yes we see it then they send you to social to an address that you're staying I'd use the social you go get five credit cards then you're building credit you go to six eighty seven twenty then you go get a house the ID that you use to get the social is that a fake ID that you're using initially it was that I was using fake IDs but then it fairly quickly I realized it was easier just to get the DMV to issue me the driver's license no real light no real idea for the kid under twelve years old under two hundred twelve months old well keep in mind when I create their their credit profile I don't put the age of a twelve month old or a ten month old kid I put that he's a 34 33 year old man well even if it shows up even if it shows up in the credit profile when they pull it fraud alert social security number just issued issued within the last year you know what happens you know many times I've been there when somebody's pulled it and they've looked at it and they've gone that's weird there's a fraud alert here really what is it you trust me if you're in a bank using a fake ID and they got that the loan officer says to you huh that's strange that's not something you want to hear I mean it's taken everything in me not to just bolt out of the door I'm already terrified so I'm sitting there and then you've got the loan officer going huh that's strange and I go you know what is it and they're they're like it says fraud alert and I'm like really and they're like yeah Mike huh well what why and they go well it says that your social security number was issued within last year really that is strange this is your social yeah you've got my two years w-2s they go yeah that is strange oh and they go well and you've always used absolutely you've got my driver's license they're like yeah okay yeah that is that's weird okay so anyway they just keep right on going I'm never once had a loan turn down because how many times has this has happened a few times two or three times two or three times this is out but they could have done anything they could have they could have called I think there's US citizen gov which verifies your so state of birth and everything else they they could have done anything they no they just went oh man I have so much documentation and there are lots of fraud alerts that come up every time you alter your name in any way it says fraud alert because it'll say Matt be Cox Matthew be Cox fraud alert two different names got it or you know em Cox it fought alone well this is the this is the date of birth and it doesn't really have it it just says issue recently it doesn't seem right because I pulled his credit and on the credit report yellow although it does say fraud alert issued but then it also says that his date of birth is 1971 or 1969 so that doesn't make sense so they disregard it right away because you're sitting there in front of them and I'm a clean-cut guy and I don't appear to be nervous or leaving so I have all the right documents and you need to talk to your loan or your boss or whatever we need to take get this taken care of let's get going yeah I'm good thanks they just keep going I've had that happen much time so so when you're using when you get a social for a kid less than say 10 months old it's a fake social that you're getting when that when the bank gets the social on there and the bank runs credit and credit comes like or even a credit card company MBNA you know Visa MasterCard American Express whatever ones it is when they're due to social they're not checking how old the person with the Social Security is I mean no I mean they're no well let me get two straight so so I can write out the application myself and I can say same name everything's the same as a social right and I use that 10 month old kid social to get a credit card but I can put age 34 but on here to get the social these 10 months the creditor that gives me the credit card for $500 or $1,000 or $200 they don't they don't have a way of verifying whether this person fictitious characters 34 years old or 10 months old know what hey first of all you know what I miss I understand what yeah well there's two different areas here one is let's say Matt Cox myself let's say I wanted to suddenly start using a different social security number okay I would have an issue because I already have a credit profile sure these guys don't have credit profiles Lee black does not have a credit profile there's no Lee black so I take Lee black a fictitious name I take an address I take a date of birth and a social to a ten-month-old and I run all of that I slip that board and it creates a new profile that they that there's no disputing information too now in the public records they hey say hey there's some guy out there named Lee black he was born in 1970 he's got this Social Security number and he's got any applied for a visa and he lives at this house now maybe the visa says no we're not they deny him because he has no credit well then they say but you know we will do mr. black will get give you a credit card if you'll give us to 103 bucks right John 5300 whatever yeah so I give him the three-year crystal-blue the credit with that absolute right in six months in six months if I get two or three of those in six months I've got 700 credit score's I did it over and over again well Matt what I'm asking for is the creditor the bank when they run a credit on you with that social that you put 34 years old we Equifax Experian strands Union they don't report back the H that matches the age that was put on the application now there's no way for them to verify with Social Security other than to know that the social security number was recently issued and there's only one of the three agencies that even checks and they'll say hey this was recently issued in the worst case scenario they'll they'll do is say can you send us a copy of your driver your driver's license that's crazy so you make a copy of the drivers rest you know how many times they would say we're not they would pull the credit and they'd say hey this is a this is a a like a UPS box right but you have a like it let's say you go to UPS you get a real address but it says box number 200 and they would say hey this is a UPS store and I would say no it's not and they say well give us a give us a water bill and I say sure and I give him a water bill with a house address and they go well that's weird we have this listed as a UPS okay yeah and they still mail it you know it's a UPS box you're mailing it just I gave you a utility bill they they have little things that they asked for people just if you're really saying it's a residence they don't want it they want to mail it to a residence in not UPS box then they ask you for something if you can provide it you're good they just mail it and I'm making the payments for so long and then something happens the guy gets into our card you know how many times I had guys there three or four houses are going to foreclosure the mortgage companies are writing letters they're writing letters saying that they're going to do that you're going to put you a collection we're gonna foreclose I would make a copy of a five car pileup where somebody had been life-flighted out and I would make a copy of it I'd retype it and I put my guy's name in it then I'd write a letter with a copy of that from his sister saying he's in critical condition the doctors say even if he comes out of the coma he'll never work again you might as well just take the house they stopped coming around I mean most people they stopped paying and they run it I would stop paying but then I confront you and say this is the reason this is what's going on I say hey I'm thinking about going to bankruptcy I'd write a letter back they just they just go away most people take off and that makes them think something's wrong but if you can say the kid mind you if they called their employer their employer says no he'll no longer works here they don't just stop answering the phone he doesn't work here anymore didn't they get a letter saying he was in and up he was in a car accident so and of course they're gonna sit they've got a reason so they go away now we understand what happened he was an accident it happens he lost his job it happens they go away so and I feel bad about that I see you did you I sees no ID on your face you know I'm not worried about you I'm not I'm actually not processing it the way you think I'm processing it look I run a company and for me we're designing a software it's technology right now we're putting a few million dollars into it but it's all about creating rules so guys can't beat the system it's this isn't about this isn't about what you're doing you know like for me listen I mean obviously what you're doing is Roger now you want to did your time twelve years and for you right you did your crime and you got the punishment for right that's what the you break the law you get caught you're gonna go to jail just kind of the system works just like in the financial securities you're gonna lose your license get terminated get fine you know all this stuff that you got to do but I'm just wondering how kind of a system is it that somebody can run a credit and it's not gonna tell the bank that is trying to get financing from TransUnion Equifax or Experian that this client it just got their social and the date of birth is you know 7 10 2019 rather than 7 10 you know 1990 it's a big difference between that you know so but all they know is it was issued within the last year and they think that could be a mistake must be a mistake he's got three credit cards the person that thinks this must be a mistake how much is that person getting pays that at $35,000 year person yeah okay I got it yeah thank him and probably makes money based on loans he knows I can get this guy alone is there a fraud alert but I can get him along got it with if I just overlook that so I'm gonna overlook it because it doesn't make sense so yeah you know ears ago best buy one away from Commission's they stopped paying commissions on their sales guys because they weren't doing customer service it was just kind of like a cutthroat and customers are kind of feeling like it's a little too competitive right so they want to a different model I think Nordstrom's did it I saw this as well at one point they wanted more to be hi man how are you how's everything I'll spend a little bit more time talking to you sure it's a house family everybody good yeah what can I help you with okay I'll show you on so they paid a little bit more salary but no commissions because their motive was they don't want to be the cutthroat environment sometimes certain people you don't pay commissions to like those types of guys that are positioned that way where they are willing to get the loan to go through that's a guy that shouldn't be getting Commission it should be just you're doing your job is what you're doing and your job is more to play defense and to play often so the common structure for those guys I don't think is set up properly okay so now let's go back to where you are you're now you know it's thinking about one of the things you asked me when was a creative financing was one of the things that people do I'm sorry I just dawned on me what my brokers would do is they would say that the guy was owner occupying a property that he was an owner on so if I'm buying an duplex I can get 80% financing from countrywide if I because it's an investment property if I say I'm gonna live there I can get ninety five to a hundred percent so I all you have to do is your borrower says he lives there so I remember one time we did not once that we did this multiple times remember one time we must have done eight different loans at one time I still remember the brokers name that did it but I'm not going to say his name but he did 8:8 owner-occupied properties duplexes all at the same time with eight different lenders for one woman and her husband was a sheriff's deputy and one time I think we did six loans for also duplexes owner-occupied and for a realtor for a big-time realtor in Brandon Brandon's outside of Tampa we did that a lot where and one time we did it and two of the loans got happened to be like on the same credit line so one was a big bank which was like Washington Mutual they had done they they had their credit line was a smaller company we didn't know they were it was just an extension of Washington Mutual essentially they were using their credit union so Washington Mutual ended up with two of the same loans so they ended up calling the broker and saying look we got two owner-occupied duplexes what's going on she comes in my office she's like oh man we got a problem and I'm like what's up she's like this guy he's a lawyer for Washington future all he's threatened to sue me put him on the phone I get on the phone we talk a little bit it's called the FBI and you know I tell him look you don't want to call the FBI who knows who was it your company that might've been doing something wrong I don't know what this just what my broker is doing let's figure this out so he lets us refinance it they actually discounted they gave us a short pay you know you know a short sale yeah but short you know so we'd have to pay them the whole 95 miles they drop it to like 80 something because we couldn't get the same type of loan they took a huge cut and they paid my broker a commission to refinance the loans and they sent her flowers when it was all said and done it was it was I've at that's in the I remember was so funny I mean it's not funny it's horrible but it was like shocking because he just had us over a barrel but they didn't you know they just want to they just want to pass just let's just get through this and move on let me ask you rates being so low when you were running and and mortgage boom was crazy were rates anywhere near where they are today no nothing no no they were they were still there were five six seven percent yeah so so so look the problem was way higher so subprime is even higher than that so prime was way higher than that yeah they're at least at least a couple at least 200 basis points higher so if it's the rates five percent it's seven or seven and a half yeah eight or nine but I mean what do I care I'm only gonna make a few payments so for you as a completable yeah so how much how much of your sill was to a real customer how much of it was just pure market manipulation and and and putting packages together you mean when I was on the mortgage guy yeah will you actually having a lot of real loans coming in oh yeah yeah but it was I'd say let's say it's let's say it's 5050 I mean we had look we were I was an FHA approved lender you know we were doing we were doing conventional FHA approved VA approved I mean it it it was a part of it was a legitimate company but the fact is if you had a pulse and you walked in my place you're if you walk in that door and you had a pulse you were getting alone you're getting you're getting a little get applause unless you just unless you decide notch if you come in I want this house this is what I want this is what I could I'm gonna get to that house got it I'll do whatever I gotta got it how much are you how much is your legitimate income coming in at that time I mean I may be 40 50 percent and what would that look like five hundred grand a year me yeah oh no no I'm not making it is this Tampa Florida this about 15 years ago Tampa so what a granny oh yeah okay 202 I got to underground so you have a good life you're not making because you said the loans are 50 grand 100 grand hundred 50 grand you're not doing there's not there's not there are a couple new two hundred thousand two hundred fifty three hundred thousand but there's not a lot and are you getting correspondence at the back end on the back end or not at that time yeah we're getting quarters of a point we're getting a yield spread that they call it yield spread it's it's like 1 or 2 points you get hey listen when I first started you get like 2 or 3 point I really got down to the point where they they were like this is just too much they were doing one or two they didn't need to do it and they felt like they had to do it and and it was getting even more money coming in got it now let me ask would you consider yourself a better salesperson or more at a deal maker what would you consider yourself I mean I I think I'm a good salesperson but I think like I had a I wrote a story about a guy named Vitaly and vitality Rana basically like a boiler room type of the situation where it's just high pressure lots of high pressure you know he they they push and push and push until you close and that's not my style my style is more it's more value it's more this is why the product is a good product this is why you need the product this is this is what it can do for you you know and you need to make a choice and if it's not forget it I'm not gonna I'm not interested okay I totally understand that I wish you the best of luck I hope you do find the product that you want and we move on maybe I call them back in a couple days maybe they call me back maybe it's it doesn't work out at all but I'm not a high-pressure guy it's more like you have to believe in your product and you have to know the value of the product that's that was more my sales technique keep in mind that in the mortgage company it's it's this is what we're charging this is why we're charging it and if you think you can go to Bank of America and get a hundred and thirty percent LTV loan that doesn't exist by all means go but they're gonna throw you out you're coming right back here you know and and of course they are coming right back and they when they walked in the door like I said fifty percent of them roughly already knew they had an issue they meant someone got it somebody directed them to me so were you more deep paper or we actually doing am bees as well we were doing a and B we were doing you know like that FHA approved we were doing conventional loans we were doing I wasn't doing those we had certain brokers that enjoyed like doing those it literally if I you came in and you had all of your Docs and you were this perfect 750 perfect documentation client it was like okay call Susan I'm not this is not for me I'm not interested in doing this loan you're gonna argue about the interest rate you're gonna argue about how much what my broker fee is you're gonna nitpick about you know the home inspection and you'reyou're a problem I'll take the guy from tire Kingdom or Walmart that knows he's been beat up he's got some things in his credit and he thinks I'm Superman because he's thinking this guy can do anything I've already been turned down my two banks no way I'm getting along I've got it that makes sense well what do you so you were saying right now you're doing the scriptwriting you're doing all that other stuff can you right now work for somebody else or no can somebody hire you and start selling or no sure yeah I can I can work for someone absolutely I've been offered jobs I just can't like like I said I can't move I'm I have to stay in Tampa um you know my my mom she's like listen she's 90 years old she's in a home I had lunch with her I've breakfast with her four days a week I typically have dinner once or twice a week I don't live very far from her and like I said I mean it's I just can't I was offered a job in Seattle I've been off our jobs are in Los Angeles I got a buddy that is in it wasn't Atlanta when he offered me the job but now he's offered me a job in Nashville like I can't go you know so I haven't I have to stay in Tampa cuz I went long cuz you know yeah she like I said a minute ago he she she came and this is a woman that came to see me every two weeks the entire time I was down through breast cancer through a stroke my brother would say mom you're sick maybe you shouldn't go this week and she would say well I'm sick but we're going and he'd say well well you know you get so tired she goes oh well then I'll sleep in the car we're going so you know I you know like I said I've been enough of a of a son that the least I can do is hang out you know as long as I can as long as necessary so you know moving is not an option if I have to live in someone's spare room I got to drive a piece-of-shit Jeep well that's what's got to happen that I'm hanging out as long as I can in the meantime I write synopses I write books that's that's what I'm doing to get by so it you know it's it's an issue but you know I'm making it work mama could pass a zero judgment too you know oh she loves me she's cheap yeah she's she's a she's good yeah she's she's good how was she when you were growing up how was your relationship with her I know you were send your dad you know three months is good then he goes on two weeks yeah and and then he goes back to being normal again how was she when you were growing up I mean she was she's a rock you know everybody thinks their mom's the same you know but she uh yeah she was she was the glue that held our our entire family together when she's talking is she telling you hey you know Matthew is she telling you how you'd be good please don't go back and do it again or no it's just relationship conversations life nothing when I guess they're not yeah yeah just curious like she uh I'm you know she said you know it's it's always you know you know she's you know you always hear about the Jewish mother right you know but the Catholic mother's just as bad you know it's the oh you don't have any you don't have any collar Church I'm like no mom I have collar shirt you don't wear them oh I'll wear a collared shirt next time you know she's like you know oh so you're not shaving anymore we're growing a beard is that what you're doing you know I'm shave Alice do it well next time so next time you'll be shaved yes ma'am I will be shaved next I might god it's constantly what are you doing for work oh you're you're painting okay okay and that's working you're selling those I mean she's a you know and there's money and I'm selling books mom I got Barbara in the books there's money in that it's not a lot of money but she's uh yeah she's she's awesome that's cool that's cool can so long-term you want to be in the world of writing books and do turning those into documentaries movies that's what you want to do long that's what I want to do I listen the average writer on the street is constantly trying to get to the guy that are in prison to get to the good stories while I was in prison I got four and five guys a day coming up to me telling me their stories it's a good good way of putting right so the gut they can't get it they've got to write a letter they got to ask him to add them to their core links can you email me can you write me a letter back my guy just has to meet me in the library tell me a story and so every day I'm hearing stories that I'm like look you got a drug story I understand what happened I know it's up but I've got like six of those stories and it's just not there's nothing unique about it or you didn't steal enough money or it's not so I'm looking for unique stories that are over the top or just extremely unique so they're worth writing it's worth dedicating two or three months to write a synopsis plus I have all these guys there I've all of their documents most of these guys are fighting their case so as opposed to some guys sitting down with me just telling me the story and you like a reporter you can bare verify a little here and a little there I've got your entire I got your I've got your um your indictment I have your FBI interviews I've got the police reports I have the transcripts and I can verify everything I know what you're saying is true that gives you more credibility as a writer when you write it and they're gonna have more interested in it more interested in right hopefully who are you in high school oh I'm just troubled I was kid I've learning disability my dad was an alcoholic I mean it was you know what will you use selling weed will you need a guy after you in the game ever you know ever you'll drop or point oh GPA guy were you you know I was see I was getting C's and I went to a school with about 25 kids in it for five private kids with learning disabilities and I end up graduating they're fairly Evans with C's end up going to college and got a degree in fine arts and said USA USA yeah it did great in at USF but you know like I said when I graduated I just don't that much I could do in the business world but who were your like meaning did you have a temper were you not good with authority did you get pissed off with your dad did you have a falling out with your dad did you have a point to prove your screw the world what what happened what which one were you know I mean I definitely wanted to try and get respect from my father he was a a big influence in my life but he was an alcoholic he was a he would go on binges like two three week binges and then he'd be sober for three months and be a great guy but he was belligerent he'd my mom used to call him he give you a tongue lashing he wouldn't spank your anything but and he'd talk to you like you were just a dog so you know and you know and I've got like about a learning disability I've got I go to school with very little kids and they're only a few kids they're even close to my age they're spread out throughout Tampa so I don't really have a lot of friends so I mean it's it's you know I would say I'm I was a troubled kid but I wasn't getting in trouble I wasn't not a drug guy now never never into drugs really yeah I had a lot of girlfriends okay so you would will you a party guy or no no not really just girlfriends just girlfriends sports I'm five foot six that's not a lot no baseball second base there's no sports at the school it's got 25 got it got it and movies music what's your inspiration like what are you reading are you a you a not reading anything I've got a learning disability I'm watching TV I'm watching movies what are you watch some movies you know that at that age what am i watching gosh I'm just curious like what's stuck with you like what inspired you are you rocky guy or you a you know Godfather guy or you know I'm gonna definitely have seen all the Godfather's off and you know obviously who hasn't was there a character like men I like this guy because this guy gets away with everything which is something I would say all of that I'd say happened when I was older it became crime movies I loved you know I the score I loved sick movie huh really great movie matchstick men you know catch me if you can the heist you know grifters I mean you know those types of my god blows make sense love those movies were you a yeah what was that the story of a Hughes were you Howard Hughes guy or no IIIi did seen a movie and but were you fan of his or no you only from what I saw from the moon okay so catch me if you can I mean that's a six story with you know to to be a true story and eventually FBI hires them to help them catch the guy right when you watch that were you like wow this guy didn't get away with anything he was amazing it was amazing so to you he was an amazing story yeah how old were the first time you watch that how old was I was I in my 20s 21 felonies yeah so was there a screw the bank they already have so much money I don't give a about the bank was it you know the hell with these you know people that are doing countrywide they're already screwing people anyway so what's wrong with me making some money what what was there any of that or no you're just kind of like I'm just trying to make money to have fun I want to say is a combination of one I listen no scruples at all about taking money from the bank I had no problem I didn't see that saw it as an institutional crime I didn't see it as hurting anybody and you know there are people that will drastically disagree but what I stole I felt like was was a pittance you know so I I had no problem at all with it you know and listen to me I'm like I said to be honest it's it's a huge thrill and it does it it absolutely you know made me feel like I so I mentioned this to sorry in the book I was let's talk about you you feel like James Bond you walk into the bank and you provide them with fake ID Social Security card fake w2's fake pay stubs and they're calling you mr. black the entire time and then they cut you a check for $250,000 you walk out the bank and they thank you for being a great customer I mean you you that's that's that's double-oh-seven stuff I mean you feel amazing I'm walking I've got fake passports I'm walking through customs mr. Carter mr. you know so-and-so and they're looking at my document these are state these are issued by the US State Department going in and out of the country with a different passport so it's it's an amazing feeling you know I do it's the thrill of getting away or is the thrill of making them look like an idiot I think it's I think it's getting away it's definitely getting away with cuz I'm not around for anybody to look bad so I'm it's getting away with it and this is the thing about the money too is that I'm not a flashy guy like I never do I never had a Lamborghini I didn't wasn't driving a Porsche I'm driving a 40 or 50 thousand dollar sports car and I'm perfectly happy I'm not flashy I don't want didn't want a bunch of it engine I want a pretty girlfriend and a decent vehicle and that's it even when I have a million dollars in the bank I'm driving a fifty sixty thousand dollar truck I'm not trying to drive a Ferrari it just wasn't my style I'm not looking for the attention are you running are you running with a crew like are you partying with a group of you is it well by the time by the time I start my own mortgage company we have a fairly tight knit group and everybody's kind of you know they all know you've got Realtors you've got a group of Realtors you've got a couple appraisers you've got some underwriters that you're dealing with I bought an underwriter a he wanted what do you want we were giving him a couple to $300 every time alone went through we ended up giving him he worked for a United capital lending I think we gave him I got him a compressor like a a gay guy it was a silver compressor with like red interior I thought it looked horrible he said I want this car you get me that car you make all the payments you give me the car he said everything you have goes straight through it did to us it was it was a good six months so everything you put it's gonna be able to provided it looked right like me he's getting any certain to look change this called the appraiser Jim he's fixing and he's like saying to me now is anything happen through when you go cut or no I I when you went down did a lot of people go down or no no because what what happened was when I took off on the run because I was on the run for three years so while I was on the run the FBI was waiting to catch me so they're investigating but they're really waiting to catch me because everybody's just going to blame me so they're thinking if we catch Cox now you can't blame Cox because we're gonna give this guy we're gonna threaten to give this guy 50 years he's gonna give up everybody so you guys are all so these guys are giving me up as on they're talking to them they're all saying it was Matt I didn't know it was Matt I didn't know so they're thinking when we grab him and listen when they grab me they had a stack you know FBI 302 SR that's the the name of the interviews that they get they could be is a 302 I had 302 forms and I have mo I forms a Memorandum of interviews from the sea service and I mean I had a stack everybody had given me up of course most of them had given they'd given me up by covering themselves yes I did this but Matt had told me he told me this so I didn't know so I did wasn't aware of what he was doing so yeah sorry I was just crazy crazy stuff when you're on the run for three years are you at what point did you know you're on the Secret Service wanted list I got what point wasn't like okay oh my gosh these guys are really after me oh yeah I had I'd gone to well when they came to get me was it was a sheriff's deputy that came and told me look the FBI's formed a task force well there was a task force formed by the FDLE for the Florida Department of Law Enforcement they handed to the FBI there was already I'm already on probation remember I told you I got I had lost the mortgage company I started this huge scam went for about a year and a half two years got eleven and half million dollars or borrowed 11 a half million dollars we're all making good money but suddenly on like a Thursday this air of Stephanie shows up and says listen I used to date this chick on the works for Tampa PD he was with Hillsborough County he said she came to me because I'd done a bunch of loans for him came to him in the morning early one morning like six o'clock in the morning said look your buddy Matt Cox is going to be an arrest in the next few days I worked on a task force we just handed it over to the FBI they're gonna rest in the next couple days so he tells me that on a Thursday so I have literally an hour left in the day and the whole next day did get out as much cash as I can because I'm thinking I'm leaving I'm already on federal probation the judge is not gonna be happy so I'm definitely going to prison I can't go to prison look at me I mean I'm too cute to go to prison this is not gonna work out well for me so I mean I've seen Shawshank I know what happened so I'm ready to take off so I within uh within a day or so I get like 80 grand out in cash this is one you were talking about right so I go straight to I'm got this girl with me named Rebecca Hulk I had been dating her a couple months I barely know her she desperately wants to come with me she's in love she's wonderful everything's great and she was she held it together pretty pretty well for a couple months and she knows what's going on oh she knows 100 old guys got it and so we take off I don't realize that she's bipolar she's not taking her meds she's within right word I'm gonna out before we start we're at each other's throats she's nuts so I get 80 grand out we take off on the run we go straight to Atlanta we rent a house i satisfy the loan on the house I borrow about $400,000 I pull the cash out of the bank it's funny because why would you was thinking a minute ago I just think of one of the stories I was gonna say to tell you was that uh one time I had gone to Kay I was cashing checks for like 84 like 8,000 9,000 under the $10,000 and so at one point I got a check for like 29 grand I think man this is ridiculous you know I'm sick of this we're going in here and here's gonna take another month so I said I'm gonna start cash and larger checks and she's like that's what they don't do it and I said no it's okay I'm gonna cash it so I go in I had stolen a guy's name by the name of Scott cogno and I had gotten an Alabama driver's license issued to him so I have a real ID I have a real social Real ID everything's real so I go in the bank give him the cashier's check that had been issued by the title company when I refinance the property I had him issue the title the checks in two different guys names what larger amounts one of them was 29 grand a lot most one were eight or nine thousand one was 29 so I go in I said hey my name is Scott kono I need to cash this check they go well that's odd and I was like whew okay they said why don't you put in your bank and I said well because my banks in Florida they're gonna hold it for who knows how long this is 15 years ago so they go doesn't make sense and I go well you know this is a cash transaction bank you can give me yeah we do largely okay let me tell me let's talk to manager manager comes out he says okay he said what's going on I said look I need to cash the check and he was okay so he takes a check of my ID and my credit card he leaves and I remember Becky the girl I was on the run with she calls me up she's calling what are you doing I go on what's taking us so long with the guys being in the cherokees he's wait he's doing verifications and stuff I don't know she's like okay well if the cops show outside call me and so I hang up we wait we wait guy comes back and he goes okay mr. mr. Cogan I have a question for you said how did you get the check issue to you and I went well it was issued a guy refinanced his house and he paid me the check okay why and I went well not that you know there wasn't any of his business but it wasn't a hard question so I'm like I'm trying to alleviate the his anxiety so I said well I'm I'm adding an addition on to his house and this is part of the draw and he was like that makes sense and that's make sense and it was all right he was okay he leaves five minutes later she's still calling what's going on I don't know he's got my stuff he's we get out of there no I can't he's got my stuff I can't leave hang up he comes back he goes um what are you gonna do with cash like oh are you serious and he goes well I'm just you know it's it's I feel apprehensive about this and I went well I'm gonna cash a lot of the guy's checks we give them checks and they don't have bank accounts because you know they just don't they're laborers and we're gonna cash some of their checks and he goes okay that makes sense leaves comes back finally comes back and I said hey what's going on you know and he says listen he said I just were just doing a series of checks on to verify things and it okay and he says uh I said what are you doing is what we're trying he said we it turns out the dish check was issued by on a house owned by a Michael Shanahan and I was like right right and he goes he said right so we're just trying to verify that Michael Shanahan issued the check that's all well there's a real Michael Shanahan and I'm thinking oh my god huh well that's not good and I'm like okay okay so he leaves Becky calls what's going on here they're trying to call Michael Shanahan she's like get out a bank no like I can't this guy's got my I leave the bank for sure they're calling the cops I have to wait hang up the phone a minute later my phone rings I look at it I don't recognize the number I pick it up and I go hello and there's a woman like hi this is Kimberly from SunTrust Bank is this Michael Shanahan I'm like yes it is and she goes hi we have someone here at the bank trying to cash a cashier's check that was drawn on your on your from the title company and I'm like okay and they said what would you was it how much was the acknow for ya the mascot kono is thirty about $29,000 even I think and she says that's right mister thank you very much mr. Shannon said how did you get my number because if you called information you would have got his real number and and I go how'd you get my number oh we called the title company they looked on the application that I had filled out and I'd used the cell number and they said we just got it off there I hope it's okay no problem no problem ok thank you boom hang up the phone five minutes later still the guy comes out with some woman counts out the money to me gives me the money I stand up and he says Mr kono I would like to say that I feel very uncomfortable about this transaction I said well what is it exactly because you know I can't put my finger on it I said well it'll come to you and I walk off listen I was terrified terrified I like to think that when the Secret Service showed up you know five six days later a week later he realized wow so you leave oh you're attached like four hundred thousand dollars we had for one thousand and a double and we leave but we're spending money like you can't believe I miss radicular going to Jamaica we're going to burn you know we're already in hardcore yeah we're going to Las Vegas this chicks a maniac she's nuts I mean she won't I literally had to make her I threatened to leave her three different times I think I put two in the book she calls she begs I'm sorry Mike you've got to see somebody you I get her to start taking Zoloft she takes it for about a month she stops taking it she doesn't like the way it makes her feel she goes nuts yes she gets the cops called one day on me two o'clock in the morning it's I mean listen I was a hostage situation I mean I fit was I this is the Becky girl yes she was over-the-top just insane ma'am are you at this point partying hardcore alcohol drugs rock and roll or no you spit under control not you it's not me okay my father's an alcoholic I don't drink I don't smoke at all ever so you're not doing control you you have control right now not because you're not have a control issue I'm young no I've got some I got listen I got major problems I'm a narcissist antisocial I mean how got some issues are you July July 2nd your what's your birthday yeah July said your license your birthday yeah narcissus and would you would you consider yourself pathological liar as well or no no you wouldn't put yourself there no absolutely not to be able to face some of these guys and stayed that yeah no natural like there's a there's a fine line there's books written about sociopaths that they can just look at you and tell you would you say so you're somewhat there or no wellness animal a sociopath what I'm saying is I'm not a pathological liar or pathological liars tend to Tyndale they feel good about lying they they lie it's impulsive they almost can't control it yeah some of them there are different versions of pathological life I wrote a whole book on a guy named Marcus shrinker who's a pathological liar and so I've read I've read multiple books on the subject and studies and he's clearly a pathological liar what's the difference in your eyes pathological liar sociopath what's the difference well most almost pathological liars are always pretty much always sociopaths so you could be a sociopath and not be a pathological liar how is that well a sociopath is just someone who has it they are not basically you're like a stick of furniture to me they have almost no empathy at all no sympathy for anyone no well that about a pathological liar someone who can't control his ability to tell the truth he's impulsively just lying he enjoys lying it's a thrill out of lying out of fooling you my lies are simply designed to acquire money and move on I'm actually a matter of fact a lot of the articles if you read the Atlantic one of the couple of the different people that they talk to in my case they said the thing is in cox's in Matt's personal life he's extremely an honest person it's only when it comes to running a scam so if I'm running a scam of course I'm gonna tell you what I need to tell you to acquire what I what I want but in my social life I'm not I'm not gonna lie to you there's nothing no tell you the truth this is what's going on you'll deal with or you won't so sociopaths to you is is there's no emotion yeah your stick of furniture you're not I don't I wouldn't say emotionless I mean Atlas there's very varying degrees of everything there are people that are are schizophrenic and they happen to have a little bit of paranoia on or to small subjects then there are guys that are extremely delusional they just see things that aren't that they're hear things that they believe things that are just outrageous you know so there's always varying degrees the moment you came in you look paranoid from the moment you stepped in you were paranoid oh we I cuz you keep mind how this all occurred I literally got a couple emails and I had seen the program and I seen the same same of the bull and I'd seen the other one a part of another one I watched the whole whole thing which we talked about the guy with the Michael Franzese yes yes yeah which was great he was great and so it happened very quickly and it was like okay there was next thing I know I'm walking in I mean I I think like I'm CIA or do you do when you came a little bit because I didn't I thought at some point we would somebody would say hey talked you know asked me some questions you know at that like crazy yeah of course I thought there would be some kind of a setup instead I didn't I'm walking here I'm still waiting like okay well at some point they're gonna sit me down and say okay well here's what we're here's what we know here's what we're gonna film and here's a instead I walk in and it's and it's like sit down I know everything about shop and then Hawk is over here to your right yeah the intimidation it's a little shocking Wow okay my question would be do you think today are we set up in a way where a Matthew Cox of 20 20 March 20 20 can be prevented from happening or a Matthew Cox of today can still do what you did in 2006 no I think that's funny because I did a another podcast I did a podcast and the guy and there the comments are outrageous but a lot of the comments are oh this could never happen this could know it nothing's changed you know that there haven't been not like there's all these public records is still recording listen in New York they have a huge rash where people are simply just there finding people's properties that have no mortgage on them at all and they're trance the deeds to people - - they're like they're doing a quitclaim deed to somebody that like a buddy of theirs and then they're selling the property out from somebody cuz it happens to be some abandoned house it's in decent shape they'll get access to the house they'll get an appraisal Nilsa I'm gonna transfer the house from this person - you record it nobody's contacting the original owner nobody's caught it's a recording system so you know that those things are still happening satisfying loans that still happens in the way that I did it the combination of the way the combination of scams that I I used was unique so every time I did it they very quickly zone zoom then you know or connected it with me so which ones can't be done today I don't know that any of them couldn't be done other than the fact that borrowing the money is more difficult but it's not impossible the only difference is most of these loans now instead of changing a w-2 typically they're having you sign what's called an 88 21 form and they're sending it off to the IRS to verify your employment so they're saying you said you made 75 thousand dollars last year you didn't that's a lie they're doing that now there's a lot of most-most mortgage companies how much it costs to the bank to do it it's almost free oh it's free they don't send it to wisely and all of them do it it's it's more paperwork and it's and I think if you're mailing off if if you're mailing off ten thousand and one's coming back bad is it really worth it I mean mostly even the bad loans a lot of just pay yeah but I give you an idea on the insurance side on the insurance side there's something called the Nexus right so where they check what medication like I can check if you say I'm not on any medication and I'm the insurance company underwriting you right I can go through a testing center that the you know reporting place that can send me an email back and say no the math you take Soloff is on you know prozac and he takes this this he takes blood thinner these are the things he's been on for the last six years all right then I come back on like wait am I can't give you preferred underwriting right but that testing costs me 25 bucks right to pay to that reporting agency so on the insurance side sometimes people don't want to do it because they don't want to pay 25 bucks times 10,000 policies it's a quarter million dollars a month of a cause that's thirty million dollars I can keep that dream dollars and put it for underwriters but you're saying on the mortgage side there's no cost to it finally IRS the IRS so I'm not sure that the IRS they are would in every bank do it IRS did not use to charge do they charge now I don't know you don't I don't think okay so let me ask you this other question let me ask you to set the question this other question is which part of the things today I know you said some of it like the IRS of verification so if it's not being fixed today and it can't everything you did can be done today if all of it can be done today who's that fault here meaning you know it when you're in the sales world the processor wants it to be funded just as much as the loan officer does right right and whether it's the title the appraisal guy making 450 or titles making a thousand seven hundred two thousand dollars depending on the side alone there's a lot of people that want to get this loan to be funded right the only person that takes the hit is when wha will realize China's no longer buying their paper on the back end and they shut it down and one who goes from being a 330 billion dollar company in oh five to being sold to chase for one point nine billion dollars so really the only person that takes a hit on the back end is the one that can't sell the paper kind of like that one guy that the two million dollars they sold a four million right and they come back but my question is because there's so many people that have had their hands in the candy jar like everybody's getting a piece of it does anybody want all of this to be stopped and if yes who well I can't imagine first of all I mean fraud just they love to throw like the numbers it's three billion dollars or trillion dollars okay yeah but overall it's it's it's very little it's the percentages it's not even like one percent is for all I mean it's it's so minor it that that why would you spend all of this money when the actuaries have already accounted for a certain amount of fraud so if we know there's gonna be a certain amount of fraud we account for it what is the real incentive to try and fix it it's a marketing loss the way they would look at it right for mobile marketing loss right what what's the big deal we're good we're it's really not hurting us we can commit and complain but the truth is it's really not damaging and it's more of things more true I think it's more trouble to put up all these all these regulations over-regulated right now a lot of these individual people are gonna get hurt the people that actually need the loans aren't gonna be able to get the loans because we're trying to stop all this fraud but the truth is the fraud really isn't harming us as much as it it is as much as people think so flip the coin FBI hires you okay and they say come on in we want you to help us out we want you to catch the modern-day Matthew Cox would you know exactly how to catch all of them would it be trends that you can but there's not by the time I'm by the time I've done what I I'm doing by the time I've done my scam I'm already gone how do you detect that scam unless you want to revamp the entire this guy's are greeting those tough to kind of leave and be gone right that's the biggest temptation of a scam artist because he can't it's always the next hit is the last I'd like the movie Carlito's Way right we said well you know babe this the last one I'm doing and we're gonna go and live over there even listen even I have even I have the same thing I was on the I was on the run three years Dateline was coming out mm-hmm I just been in Fortune magazine had just done a piece on me so I was in bloomberg businessweek did two pieces Fortune magazine there were thirty some-odd articles in the st. Pete Times Chicago Tribune ditto that's the whole time I'm on the run so I know it's coming down and I know that Dateline was about to come out and I'm ready to go I'm leaving and I'm thinking I'm just gonna pull out two or three million dollars and I'm leaving and I don't make it to that let's say I had gotten I like to think that would have been it do you think so I like to think so but you know what let's just face it almost every time I did something that was it because you're greedy or you're overconfident look I'll tell you tell you one time one time I go to I'm on the run I was on the Secret Service's most-wanted list by the way at this point mmm-hmm what year is this oh six or so obviously oh oh four no no no this is this is oh five I'm gonna say this is I think of the mortgage industry or four or five right I had gone to Las Vegas with Becky okay we at this point I'm surveying homeless people to get their information but I've come up with a survey form that says we're surveying homeless people to get to determine where where we're going to place our next homeless facility I work for the Salvation Armie I've got a little badge I know it's horrible I feel bad so stop judging me so they have no they have no idea they're good for twenty bucks they're filling out the form I order all your all your stuff I got your high school transcripts I got everything I then go in the DMV I get a driver's license I'm driving I buy a car in your name I don't even need that you know I know of course I go to Social Security I get a Social Security issued so I've got clean Social Security I got credit I got a house I got whatever I want in your name you're some guy that lives under a bridge in Los Vegas now I'm in South Carolina I remember the guy this is funny because I would be the guy and said the guy had gotten in Las Vegas I meet him while I'm doing the survey I asked about does he have any a criminal record he says he's got several arrests for prostitution but they were misdemeanors I said okay he's a my real I go so you're a male prostitute he's like yeah I was like okay whatever so I take the thing I go to South Carolina I go to DMV I get a driver's license in his name I then go buy two houses and then after I buy those houses I satisfy the loan in his name satisfy the loan in both those houses I then go to multiple mortgage companies and I borrow money on the houses one of them I borrow like three four hundred thousand the next one I borrow like close to a million dollars on the house their house is only worth two hundred thousand in the bank I'm cashing checks I'm pulling out four or five six hundred thousand dollars over the course of a few weeks Becky by the way the whole time every time I would go into a bank this didn't all the time but a lot of times she would say what happens if you get arrested and I would say if I get arrested they'll be arresting me as the guys name was Gary Sullivan they'll be arresting me as Gary Sullivan the male prostitute the male prostitute they will not run my prints right away because my identity is not questioned back then they didn't have the scanners so they're gonna run they'll go scan yeah but it doesn't necessarily run it through a 'thus so that's a new thing they're doing the scanners now right what they didn't at the time they had them but it wasn't they weren't I said look the worst that'll happen I get arrested it'll be a minor charge get me a lawyer get me out on bail we'll take off she goes okay so I go in the bank one day I go into a walk oviya I'm waiting to get cash a cheque for like six grand and I cashed pulled out 50,000 60,000 under that account I had like eight accounts well next thing I know BAM a cop walks up with a grabbed me from behind they arrest me they walk me in the back I'm done that's it I already know I mom so Secret Service is most-wanted list this is it they take me back they sit me down all the customers are looking at me guy says mr. Sullivan we're waiting for the detective to show up I'm thinking detective okay that's like FBI or something I guess he's coming well then this cop comes in and he says hey I'm with the Richmond County Sheriff's Department we understand you know we Wachovia fraud department called us they said you're running some kind of a scam you're pulling out cash I go are you seriously owes you know I said look man am i under arrest he's like no I said I feel like I'm under arrest and I show him Michael my constant go take those off it takes them off me they call the Wachovia head of security he's on the phone he says okay now what's going on he's borrowed how many loans because he said you've got three loans on the house I actually had like six they only caught three and I said okay I said yeah is that illegal and the guy goes do you know I'm not really sure I remember right then thinking I'm walking out of here I got just got to convince this guy I haven't done anything wrong while Kobe is telling him I have done something wrong but if I can get out of here so I start arguing with him this guy saying he's got all first mortgages I'm saying they're not all first mortgages Wachovia is first mortgage - they know they lent me a first mortgage I said and who are the other ones any I go and he goes oh SunTrust and so it's over right SunTrust is a credit line the other one is a second mortgage that's the three and he's like well why did you he wants to know why you brought him took out all that money half a million dollars on $200,000 house I said bro I don't know how it works I work for a labor company I give my business card I said all I know is I came here the woman I told her I needed half a million dollars the loan officer said I can get you this much I got a friend over here she can get you this much this much it sounds to me like they got a problem in the bank I don't know anything about it he says okay okay and the guy screaming it's a shotgunning scam he's you don't understand he's doing this he's doing he's like and I'm Salem and I wouldn't know how to do this I don't know what he's talking about and he says yeah I don't this guy is he works for a labor company he doesn't and he's like why are you pulling out all this cash like a web cache and guys checks I mean I got a bunch of Mexican guys that doing roofs and they don't take checks or I give him a check I cash a check I mean is that illegal now that's not illegal okay so then he says uh his ID his ID starts with zero zero zero and he goes no it's a real ID it was a real ID he was it's a real ID r this guy was in California Wachovia hmm he was no our ID start with zero zero zero and he said uh he said trust me I brought him through NCIC it's him this is Gary Sullivan and I go oh now I'm not Gary Sala by oh come on bro what are we doing here man what are we doing he goes I know binaries okay and he says okay so he talks to the guy they this guy literally is arguing with him he eventually says okay I'm gonna take him downtown have him fill out a police report I'm waiting for the district attorney to call me back I don't even know what to charge them with if I can charge him with anything I think you need to talk to your loan officer hangs up the phone I then get up when I get up the two sheriff's deputies are there and he says do you have a driver's license and I said this is an ID and I said yeah I have a driver's license I said but it's in Nevada I don't know if Gary Sullivan 8 he's a homeless guy he's blowing guys for 20 bucks a pop on the park bench I don't know if he's got a night a driver's license one of the cops says I'll check he goes out to his car he comes back and he goes he does have a driver's license and he goes okay it's cool and he goes yeah here's well it says he's five foot ten and they look at me and I go with the good pair of shoes and they all go huh and so at the same time he says I remember he had said something about that's right you're from Nevada and all the cops look at me and they look at each other and they kind of grin and I realize he said he ran me through NCIC he thinks I've been arrested in Nevada for prostitution and I thought off the block how it was just ridiculous so they could be my ID I follow him to the police station when I we were gonna say I literally almost want to say listen man that's all on my knees Mac Cox they followed me the police station I go in the police station fill out the police report I'm waiting and hallway my wanted poster by the way is on the wall there's all these posters my only color one on the whole wall you're seeing it I'm seeing it I'm pissing in my pants when I leave Oh before I got there when i was i fall took my own car when i'm driving there becky calls me i pick up the phone and she goes oh my god what's going on and i say i tell her what happened and she goes you don't understand they just raised you to number one of the secret services most-wanted list you've got to get out of there I said I can't there's a sheriff's deputy behind me that the other guys in front of me I got to play this out and I say the works that are happened is I get arrested you get me out on bond shoes I'm not getting you out on bond I'm not getting you a lawyer she had like six hundred thousand in cash of your month my money she was now living in Houston and I'm like what are you still together or no well we're not together we're we're still changing but we're not goodbye others yeah okay she we hate each other so I go into the police station fill out the report guy walks me out I get in my car I leave I go straight to two more banks and get out more money until another person recognizing me goes to make a phone call I jump in my car and I leave so that was like that was insane and what's funny about that so I remember like a week later it comes out in the st. Petersburg Times comes out and says you know fugitive caught in South Carolina released by authorities and it was a big article about how they grabbed me they brought me downtown I talked my way out of it they always mentioned that like on American greed they always mention it what a play will write about you know six now god it was it that was a short that was probably a couple thousand words um were they right they just it was they really blue they made it sound like I was this you know like the what was it the most ingenious you know prolific mortgage fraud con artists of all times and yeah is that some great some great sound bites you know the big thing they always latch on to is one of the things you were asking about like how flaw the system let's say when I was satisfying the loans one time I satisfied a loan using the name C Montgomery burns from The Simpsons so this is so it's so C Montgomery bone our burns satisfy the loan to like Federal Savings and Loan Bank and I thought remember thinking it was cute and it was funny let me judge had no sense of humor found it did not find it what are you you don't like to make people look stupid but you like to make people look stiff you'd like to say like look how dumb you are that you're allowing me to finance loans on Reservoir Dogs by Quentin Tarantino you idiot great movie it is a great movie I have a story with them my sister is getting married to my brother-in-law CEO Mac and we're sitting at home and my sister said look you got to try to impress my dad my dad's not comfortable with us getting married so he comes over he says yeah I think we should watch a movie my dad's a traditional Middle Eastern guy so he puts in Reservoir Dogs you back with you I mean if you've seen the movie multiple times you know the guys your guy now they've been married for 15 16 years and love each other but that's a reservoir does it I think was his first movie that did he put four hundred thousand dollars into it made 14 million one of the biggest hits story like Riera return wise and he becomes who yesterday so at what point do you get caught and you said it's done when was that there was too late November 2006 I had moved to Nashville and Nashville like you're trying to find the church because there's this that the capital of Bible Bell you know in America you go into church trying to be Christian or yeah I'm just trying to look I just like country music yeah so I I go to Nashville and I buy a bunch of houses in an area and I start the whole thing over again I pull I think I borrowed like three and a half million or something like two hundred 2.5 million I forget what they say they said three nine million I think it was only at two point five so I borrowed some money and I'm at that point I'm dating a girl and she and I end up seeing another girl and she my girlfriend ends up finding out who I am pleads with me not to Tilly because I was like oh I you know who I am I got to leave but we're living together we're in love I think it's okay she ends up confiding in the other girl the other girl turns me in mmm got it had Secret Service shows up they arrest when you say the other glues it's like a three-way relationship okay got it God um so I end up getting grabbed I I get you know it was bad I mean I knew we knew we knew Dateline was coming out by that point all these articles had come out they learn about you but what you're doing right okay Dateline did two one-hour specials on me one before I was arrested and then one after I was arrested once I'd been arrested the US Attorney came to me and said we want you to do an interview with Dateline be interviewed by them and they said they consider it substantial assistance I mean you've you've interviewed guys before so you know a substantial assistance you know it's cooperation with the government substantial assistance means you cooperated with the government which led to an arrest or a conviction so she told my lawyer I will consider this substantial assistance because by the time I get caught everybody's already told on me people have gone to jail there's a whole bunch of people that haven't gone to jail but I'm you know and I'm not I'm definitely ready to cooperate I'm ready listen I'm ready to do anything I got I'm looking at a huge sentence so have they caught you when Dateline called you or no not yet no no they when they caught me they caught me and within a month or two Dateline had eight lines episode came out okay guy was leaving the country cuz I knew it was coming out where were you gonna go - I was gonna go to Australia because if you at that point if you showed up at on Australia with Rihanna a couple hundred grand yeah you became what wasn't even at that point it was a citizen if you want it to be fingerprinted and run you could be a non-resident alien you were allowed to buy property you were allowed to start a business an imam very intrigued Australia right so so I got a driver I got to be there I couldn't get a job but I could hire Aussies I could buy property so if you show up it's just a few hundred thousand so now you know who else wants awestruck yeah Jordan bill for also one to Australia I did hear that well I did hear that very interest obviously Jordan Belfort has been we done a couple things figured I was on his he was on our thing we're I telling the story so okay so you your plan was to go to Australia right to do that but then they catch you here they grab me I mean well and that's what prompted it we were pulling out cash one of the things that prompted a conversation between my girlfriend and this other girl we're asking her to cash checks get to get us some help cos some cash and she says what happened and so that calls it a thing well here's what's happening date lines coming out here's who he is he's got to get out of country she calls the Secret Service so we're thinking we're all good she's thinking I can get rid of this guy and end up with this girlfriend so what happens is I get arrested they swooped in they arrest me they a few months later Dateline come does come out it was called the thief of hearts Becky had already been captured Becky we had been captured already a year before big he's already in she's already in and she does it the whole seeing thing is based on Becky and her in an interview with Becky saying oh he's a horrible guy he's manipulative he did this he did that you know so that comes out then the US Attorney says they want to interview you we want you to be interviewed and you know my lawyers like look they're gonna make you look bad but they'll consider substantial assistance they'll reduce your sentence she said you got to do it you're basically done so by that point I go so I go and I do the interview just before I'm sentenced we're thinking they're gonna reduce my sentence giving me a 5k won and reduce my sentence they say yeah you know it's really not enough but you said you'd consider substantial assistance than the US attorney said we did consider it and it's not enough so I get 26 years I go to prison prison prison I'll probably do a medium security prison guys or the day I got there a guy got stabbed on the REC yard guys are getting beat down with locks did you ever get beat that like them never had a problem ever had I'll only fight I ever had or issue I ever had was in the low and the medium I never had a problem within a few weeks of me being there I started teaching the real estate class that guy that was teaching it didn't want to do it anymore he was doing he wanted to do legal so he asked if I'd do it I started teaching it well I had a great class and it was the medium so you could be pretty open with what you talked about so I had a great class guys are walking around the compound he cost what's going on hey man out how's it going so on hey I mean huge massive guys everybody's very happy you're protecting me would they protect anyway it wasn't it wasn't that I needed to be protected I didn't talk to anybody if you noticed like it was like being a non enemy combatant like literally there's stuff going on all around you my head's down I go to I I go to my go to the unit I go to work I taught GED and and then I go and I teach the real estate class guys want to know about certain things I'll meet you in the in the meet you in the library I can go over stuff with you I take we tell take notes we do scenarios it lasts about an hour once or twice a week everything's great now even some interesting cats in prison though yeah well I was there for three years then I went to the low okay god right where did you start writing when you start to writing scripts I think you did wrote a what did you say you wrote your own a memo right did you write a memoir for a memoir for a guide for Ephraim Devereaux Lee which was the lead which was the character and Jonah Jonah Jonah Hill place him in war dogs yeah I wrote Deveraux Lee's a memoir while we were incarcerated how was he he was let me did you see the movie of course and you what did you think of Jonah Hill what'd you think of the character psycho sociopath who was a great leader and a manipulator he made Devereaux Lee look cuddly compared to Delta Roly Deborah Roly is cunning super smart super smart super manipulative super cunning I mean you know I wouldn't trust him for anything but you cannot you can't underestimate him he is but he is absolutely extremely sharp you know I wouldn't dare take that away from him and that the thing about him is that as vicious as he was in business and that movie doesn't come close by the time I was done writing that book you know I liked him he was he had on a bill has an ability to get you really to like him to you know it but but I liked him because I thought we were a team you know he's the kind of guy you want on your side you definitely want him on your side the tough guy or no he's not a tough guy like a brutal guy he's a sharp guy he's a does he have the piercing eyes like you or no like you see like that as well or no cuz your eyes are on fire like then typically a lot of guys that are brilliant that they think million things in their mind their eyes are like the way you are was he like that is what we're no intense I would say he's extremes very intense okay it's very intense on all the time on all the time okay always yeah definitely he's definitely energetic definitely you know he's just it's you guys still keep in touch or no no no so good an end well the relation I don't know he sued Warner Brothers over the film they alleged that Warner Brothers had gotten a hold of the manuscript which it appears that they look like they did there was a they sued them they went back and forth there was a you know there was a settlement they I that sued Warner Brothers and Devereux Lee we dropped the Warner Brothers suit we sued Warner Devereux Lee we ended up settling with Devereux Lee and you know and even during that that in negotiations it's extremely tough extremely you know he's a sharp guy he's sharp guy so I wrote that story I wrote a story about these guys come called the story I wrote was oxy Rush had said I sent that to a reporter with Rolling Stone they ended up writing an article based on what I had written it was called the dukes of oxy and that was sold to New Line Cinema mm-hmm believe it was New Line Cinema and it was optioned you know the film rights were sold it was so it was optioned hmm it's been optioned they've renewed the option several times since then wrote a story about a guy named about a credit card counterfeiter which is honestly one of the most amazing stories which is a credit card counterfeiter named John Bozak who sold about three and a half or about three and a half million dollars in credit cards to the Russian mob been listed on several indictments was Secret Service was after him got it's just a phenomenal story I wrote a memoir for him what else wrote a this guy named Marcus shrinker that actually in 2008 when the whole financial crisis was coming down shrinker took his airplane up called in a distress signal the windshields imploded I'm bleeding and then he sets the autopilot it's supposed to go out over the Gulf and he jumps out faked his own death it's been everywhere the huge story and he ends up landing and then three days later they catch him because the airplane runs out of gas about a mile or two before it hits the Gulf because he didn't account for the fact that the door was gonna be open so it burns off a lot more fuel and it ends up crashing into like a swampy area and guess what that whole plane was just destroyed but the windshield was still intact so they know immediately not in the plane the doors open I mean he thought it goes down the windshields gonna implode when it's the anyway they catch him so I wrote a book about him pathological liar that's a phenomenal story I've written about about over a dozen almost 20 how was a guy like you didn't do good in school such a good writer why are you writing I mean I know I had a lot of help listen you got guys in Coleman that are locked up guys from NASA you got lawyers you've got you've got guys with 180 IQs I mean these are brilliant guy I write that guy's in from NASA you got guys in from absolutely there are they're amazing guys that are in there listen I'm not saying 90% of them are just drug dealers low-level drug dealers but there's a whole slew of guys that are super sharp lawyers doctors I never go to the doctor you just you just go find dr. Iglesias and he's in you know b3 and you say hey listen doc my knee it's killing me and he does a little exam there and he says okay you're you need to stay off it for two weeks and I can't go to the doctor if Coleman these guys for like piays nobody will hire on there so so you don't get the top of your field and end up working for the Bo P that's just not how it works like sense so yeah so so you just got outta nine months ago ten months ago yeah be eight months seven OMA how you feel being out what are your plans now I feel good I mean I've got I've got a website with all my stories on it how are you making money right now I'm working as I've been hired to write a biography by a lawyer it's kind of a vanity project super amazing lawyer I've got two other books that I'm supposed to write I've got I'm selling books on Amazon so that's some money mm-hmm you know my bills are low listen here's one thing I learned is I don't need a lot of money I'm stay I'd say extremely humble I live in someone's spare room I Drive a piece-of-shit Jeep I spend virtually no money my whole thing is I'm writing the stories I want to be a true crime writer I want to get them turned into documentaries into films no one desires to go back to old house absolutely not 100% no temptation listen you know you never know what am I supposed to say the factory oh listen I told my probation officer I said I'm gonna give it a year and if things don't go well I'm gonna come we're gonna commit a massive massive fraud I'm believe in the United States because that's where I thought you told them that oh I told her she listened matter of fact she even told me this is horrible because she even told me don't mean basically she didn't say it but she basically said stop mentioning me in the podcast look I don't want to be famous stop it so I mean you know and she's the nicest person she's extremely strict she's concerned she's concerned but the truth is things are going too well for me to out at this point at this point listen at this point I've got I've got documentaries that are about to be made I've got a series that is supposed to be made supposed to go to Los Angeles on the 18th and 19th I'm to meet with a you know with a production company that makes films for for Netflix and Hulu they have like four of them on there right now so things are going well the low interest rates doesn't turn you on right now it does nothing pause nothing for me mother let me ask you this just from your experience how long can is low interest rate rates last how long can it last this is all fake money right now I mean I you know I was just thinking every time I'll see like some etrade cámara like like one of these these just like you know they're doing the mortgages you know over the internet or something I just look at things it's so right for fraud that's why I'm saying that it's you know but it's so ripe for fraud yeah you watch my show what's your first thing you thought when you saw make sure you like yeah I kind of knew this was all the things are the pictures great right so what'd you think about it you said I know listen in the big short yeah do you remember when they come to Florida you make me quarter they meet with the mortgage brokers that are like oh I'd focus on like strippers yeah those were my brokers those were my guys if you want to know who were who worked for Mack you sales used-car salesman those guys right there there's my strippers there they're nut jobs they're going to conventions were just like that phenomenal conventions I went like I mean you know it was it was outrageous and those idiots those were the brokers that I hired I think we're good you didn't have to be that that great so you know especially if you can go in and bring me the documents I got all these documents these two need to be changed and I change them you gotta loan you did you watch accountant would Ben Affleck the now isn't being as that what is called the accountant no no well you got a watch I missed a lot of movies but well you got to watch this one I bet that's right you just got out seven eight months ago go watch the accountant and then tell me what you think about the accountant some tells me you may like it I don't know if you watch it's a very would you agree I think is the you may you may like the movie it's an interesting story tell us about the book before we wrap up here shark in the housing pool tell us what this is about it's that's the story of for me basically it it's a brief account of you know it's a memoir it's a memoir tell a little bit about my my upbringing the what influenced me slightly it's a look and then it gets straight into all the fraud in the mortgage company and then it's me on this life on the run the scams it's it's extremely I don't look I think it's super interesting of course I'm I'm biased I wrote it so but everybody that reads it loves it it's a phenomenal story you you've just gotten bits and pieces of here's what the client says so you just did this kind of contradicts what you said he was not some boring banker type in a gravy flannel suit but a hip young daredevil who was who were expensive clothes drove flashy cars and loved to skydive that's that's what they say you know that they always hype it would you drive you said a truck what were you driving I mean I've driven every thought driven mercy I've had Mercedes I know Lambos Ferraris Porsches no no it's too flashy I'm I'm a now action gangster did you watch America against or no yeah I think I love you know exactly seriously well I mean listen it obviously today's story I told it's gonna be a crazy story and I I was in the world with a lot of friends our mortgage that would do modification remember one modification care that was a whole opening for more fraud to be taking place but if if you if you haven't heard a story you want to read more about it click on a link below to order his book shark in the housing pull Matthew Cox thank you so much for coming out I enjoyed listening to your story you got a crazy ass story I got to tell you that phenomenal story appreciate it yeah a lot of us here glad I came what a crazy story to think about the fact that a Matthew Cox today could still happen because the system's not strong enough to prevent from that taking place obviously he's got a incredible story very entertaining story teller and see in different perspectives of what he had I want to hear your thoughts of today's interview comment below as well as if you haven't watched my interview with Jordan Belfort the first time he and I sat down together I think you would like his perspective as well and if you haven't watched a Mark Cuban interview that I don't know four years ago five years ago I think you'll enjoy this one as well I do if you haven't subscribed to the channel please do so thanks for watching everybody take care bye-bye you [Music]
