This Cop Infiltrated The Hell's Angels | Heartland Radio 2.0

I'm real excited about today super excited the whole crews here mm-hmm the past steps in in a second we got we got [Laughter] he's literally too excited you see is by the way every time I think I want to say a tone digs at tone deaf goes in my head so you know that anybody else ty Schmidt Bailey and Zito we're all here because you know we have probably just buddies gonna go down is one of my favorite guests all time if not favorite guests without further ado let's get to behind [Music] [Laughter] joining us on the phone is a retired federal agent completing 27 years of service with the Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco Firearms and Explosives you're not supposed to leave out the e everybody leaves out the e he's best known in law enforcement circles for being the first federal agent to secretly infiltrate and ride with the Hells Angels no big deal he's in New York Times an international best-selling author you can find his book snow angel my heroin undercover journey to the inner circle the Hells Angels and catching hell a true story of abandonment and betrayal anywhere that books are found or you can go to Jay Dobyns com if you have any questions about getting the Jay Dobyns [ __ ] alright Jay thanks for coming in brother right on man thank you for having me and thank you to your audience yeah man about coming in I mean we're doing this by sky that's our first Skype interview we're pretty excited about it we had a couple bugs to work out there at the beginning but it looks like we're all good now so man I want to start off just to this its overall give people a picture of what you are because our listeners know my law enforcement background so you were always a legend among people that worked in the undercover community around here everybody I worked with the older guys had the story about you and then and then I would pass on that story to new guys when they joined the unit you know like hey this this guy he was the guy he was like our undercover Jesus right he had accomplished more and undercover work pretty much more than anybody else so that's why I wanted to have you on here and tell your story you started off you're a football stud right yes well I don't know if you'd call it a stud I was a football player like when I look at my football career I was a great high school football player I was a good college player and I was a terrible pro so you were you were a wide receiver at the University of Arizona where did they go after that I did you know what I had no plan B night was gonna be a pro football player and I went to the 1984 NFL Combine right and I was an All pac-10 Player and I was going to go and and show off and show all those Scouts and coaches and general managers how valuable I was right so I'm we're running and jumping and doing all this stuff and I find al Davis with the Raiders out on the grass okay and I ran up to him and said coach Davis how am i doing man I you know I'm a Fred Biletnikoff fan and I always loved the Raiders and he looked at his score sheet and he said Dobbins Dobbins you're the fastest local guy I've seen today so so they put us together in this group right and and I'm with a couple guys never heard of these dudes same size same build one guys through a little school in Mississippi another dude is from cuts town state okay I didn't even know there was a cuts town state right choice shake hands with them hey man where's your school oh we're in Pennsylvania and so I'm thinking to myself internally my internal dialogue I'm whipping everybody's ass today right right so ten minutes into the drills I realized I was not going to be a professional football player but the guy from cuts town state was andre reed who as you guys know played what fifteen years and the league's in the Hall of Fame and the guy from the little school in Mississippi went to Mississippi Valley State it was Jerry Rice so I was not necessarily judging myself against the fairest competition but nonetheless I could I just physically could not do what those guys could do I couldn't run or jump or or anything that they could do so my plan B like I didn't have a plan B my plan a failed and I didn't have a plan B right well there's no shame I mean very few people on the planet can't compete at that level but you obviously were a gritty sumbitch I guess at that point to be a slower white feller that caught footballs even to get to that point it's pretty good so I'm assuming it's pretty much grip based so we need we need we couldn't have found out you couldn't go to the NFL did you like half cop in your blood and through your bloodline through your family what made you think oh that's what I want to do you know what I'll tell you what I didn't and at the time this was mid 80s you know the television show Miami Vice was super popular and so as an audience we had never seen a cop show like that and everything had been very procedural like uniformed cops and detectives and then all of a sudden Sonny Crockett shows up and he's wearing a Hugo Boss suit and he's driving a Lamborghini around South Beach you know when he's he's dealing with these flashy flamboyant kingpins and there's a ton of cocaine on some barge out in the harbor and he's he's at these mansions and there's these big titted stripper models bringing in martinis yeah oh yeah you know what man I think I can do that yeah that show had its all hooked back then I think so what how did you end up with ATF was there like it was that by design or was it one of those things where I'm just gonna ply with everybody first want to take me gets me you know it was fight design because I knew I wanted to work undercover or at least try to work undercover okay and ATF had the most still does the most dynamic undercover program in federal law enforcement so that's what that man that's where I wanted to go that's where I you know that's right I knew I knew where my home was okay so how when you go in sorry so like why worked I had to start as a uniformed officer for a little bit and then I became a regular detective and then then I had to go to undercover so they kind of picked from people that had outside experience you know in other fields before you could get there it federally do you just walk right in undercover you're hired for that or you got to work your way from like a regular field agent well you know it starts pretty quick and but I came prepared now I have a prop for you right I was waiting for the star was waiting for Pat to show up what's going on man I am so excited I got hired on a Monday right four days later I've been on the job for now I haven't been to an academy yet and I got taken hostage and shot right so I'm going to show you this shirt if you can see it right oh he's that hole right there house where the bullet went in my back it went through my lung it narrowly missed my heart and it came out of my chest right there a lot of blood they pour so that you know what that was four days we get paid every two weeks I so let me pull back a little bit cuz you jumped into that fast you had not even been to the federal agent it cannot be flexi I guess it's called man on the was called then you had even been to the Academy and you're working in an undercover capacity how does that happen how did their like dude you you just you look so much like what we need you look like a goes back that there's a there's a football tied to it right we're going out to arrest this cat and he takes off and and and runs from us well you know what I wasn't fast by NFL standards but by cop standards man I was four three so I went and and and tracked this dude down and and you know and not knowing what I'm doing all right I get taken hostage and shot like four days on the job and I'm laying in the [ __ ] of a trailer park with blood coming out of my chest like you're holding your thumb over a garden hose oh right and I reference that like the Miami Vice was my inspiration right I was thinking like man I don't remember this episode was how long were you held hostage how did that tell me how that went down exactly so even if that person you become AHA the cat that we were chasing swung around behind me had a gun to my head stuffed me in a vehicle that was there and was basically holding the gun to my head saying let's go get me out of here let's go and the Manitoulin I had a moment of clarity and I was like this cats gonna shoot me but I'd rather him shoot me here with some of my partner's around right then 20 miles down the road where he's going to execute me on the side of the street right yeah so I pulled the keys out of the ignition and just dropped him on the floor and when I when I wouldn't leave this probably 15 second gunfight erupted inside this vehicle with like dozens and dozens around fired with with me just sitting there you know absorbing it so you have your backup your boys are firing into the car they're firing into the car from the outside the guy that had me hostage shoots me and then is firing back out of the car so it was like it was like a Quentin Tarantino sequence so you're dead in that guy's head and that guy said when he shoots you he thinks you're dead now he's gonna try to kill everybody else we had learned afterwards that he had stated like there is no way I am NOT going back to prison you know he obviously had some bad experiences there very likely in the shower and wasn't going back that's the worst do to deal with pertain Andy Dufresne in the same scene it's always I know it's like that's like the worst possible scenario you started off your law-enforcement career with the worst possible possible scenario because every cop out there has had a moment where they just acted without thinking and ran to where they shouldn't have ran and got there and thought oh [ __ ] that was stupid and but nothing happens with you you got held hostage is shot and you got caught in the middle of a gunfight you're four days in well tell you what so I get transferred to Chicago because I wanted a kid I wanted to work undercover right and it's like well you can't do it here there's too much publicity around this shooting so I get transferred to Chicago a year later I'm in another gun battle I did an undercover deal for some machine guns with some gangbangers outside of Joliet Illinois and got into a shootout with these guys got shot got run over by a car also the job I'd been like shot twice run over by a car hey I don't mean to laugh but this is some of the most insane [ __ ] life stories I've ever heard in my life here's the thing you know what I loved it I loved it you have to because every day yeah I assume we do or four days in I get taken hostages shot I'm putting in my resignation you signed up to stay on for another 26 now all these attorneys these liability attorneys lining up saying hey man we can get you millions at you should not have been put in this position you weren't trained the eight the government has huge liability for what happened to you uh-huh like let us make you a millionaire you know but I grew a man I grew up in a blue-collar house my dad was a carpenter my dad pounded nails for a living my mom scrubbed people's toilets for a living I didn't know what money was millions of dollars didn't mean anything to me I just wanted to get back and try to do it the right way undercover I'm even for my background I am like in all right now first of all I didn't know you could just walk right into undercover yeah I was wondering why I haven't done that excuse me I would like to be undercover throw me out there so I can potentially get shot tomorrow I assumed that had something to do with the era I was probably now they're like you know hey we're gonna make sure everybody gets trained before the who before we throw them in the middle of a drug deal or whatever but work is dying yeah it's it's just it's not that it's not that common anymore but in the late 80s man we were we were thriving and surviving behind street operations and undercover work before we get into the big case let's talk a little bit about like what the mindset of being undercover like in the difference between deep undercover and why the stories I've told these listeners you know my undercover work was like day-to-day all right today you're gonna go buy some rocks in this housing project and then afterward I went home with my family there's a good day's work you know you to go deep undercover like in an infiltrating capacity where you got a blend and actually live as one of them whatever like there aren't very many people that have ever done that there are very people that can do it like you go I saw I've explained to our audience like if we look at the PAP be in the NFL that's the one percent of the top one percent right the one percent that made it to a Division one college at that level and then one percent of them makes it to the NFL there's one percent of all cops who can just full bad guys on the street for street level bias and stuff and then there's one percent of those that can do what you did so what it explained the mindset of first of all I want to this life secondly once you're in there I mean you obviously just loved every minute of it what about you makes you that person well I think your analogy was spot-on so you use this NFL analogy right and Pat's experiences you know in the NFL and we as fans we criticize athletes and we critique athletes right but what people don't realize is that if you go to the worst team in the NFL and then you go to their practice roster the guys that can't even make their 53 yeah and you look at the worst player on the worst practice roster in the NFL that guy is an amazing football player and he's better than any of the people that are out there criticizing ever dream to be right yeah so like you that you translate that and undercover work there's hundreds of thousands of cops out there but there's only a handful that can survive and thrive in that environment or want to you know no one holds a gun to your head and makes you do it you have to want to do it agreed and I think Pat what it will appreciate this analogy as well not only that be your it like just like a player is in the NFL like their GM your chief your captain your supervising agent whatever they they didn't play you know what I mean they they're never we're undercover but here they are making decisions for you and trying to tell you how to do your job how frustrating is that well yeah you get people that advance and then all of a sudden they got a title behind their name and if they think that makes them an expert in every field I could even fathom in this one I'll tell you what I'll tell you another sports analogy where it ties together for your show is that like any wide receiver out there can catch a slant that's that that's part of the business you have to be able to catch a slant but how many of them are willing to drive over the middle to catch a slant its willingness man the great ones are the ones that are exceptional will go in there and they're willing to go inside and get that ball no one that they're gonna get their teeth caved in right yeah the same thing goes for undercover work like like I wasn't exceptionally great at it I was willing I was willing to try and I was willing to try to do things that other people didn't want to yeah no I think it makes perfect sense did you feel we scared first time he did it did you feel like oh sure I'm about to [ __ ] my pants right now yeah well I think part of it is learning to be comfortable while you're uncomfortable yeah and you know those those first couple deals man you're trying to talk to a guy and you're trying to B Street and you're trying to be smooth and then like your hands are shaking so George Jung when he was walking out of that Airport with cocaine in in blow he says like in his mind he has to just go there for you did you just have to go to a place where you like [ __ ] it I'm a gangster now that's what I am is that just kind of what you had to do there's times there's red flags when you know like man this is going bad I need to remove myself from this there's also times where those spidey senses are tingling and it's and you can tell it's trippy and you just literally have to like pull your nuts up and use your expertise and your experience you know and it's it's comfort and confidence and it's it's the same as in sports I don't know which one comes first but when you're confident then it allows you to be comfortable or you're comfortable and then it allows that swag of confidence to come out I don't know which one's first or second but I know they go hand in hand absolutely and it's a different that's a different fight like you're you're out there you're a warrior but you're a warrior with your mind when you're undercover right so SWAT guys I give them all the credit in the world they're badasses you know they're warriors with a gun they act as a team and they go in and they're ready for armed combat where you're out there like all you have are your wits and your ability to talk some [ __ ] that's all you got you don't carry a gun most the time right that's perfect you know and and as a story so we raid the Hells Angels club houses after my infiltration and all the SWAT guys are there and they're taking trophies in front of the in front of the insignias and I hand them the camera back after I took the picture and I said you know what the difference between you guys and me is and agree I love the SWAT guys right there at their exceptional they saved my ass many times I'm like you guys have weeks to plan for this and you do tape drills and you show up with knee pads and elbow pads and em floors and a sidearm and Kevlar helmets and and Kevlar vests with ceramic plates in goggles and interpro burned outer perimeter dogs helicopters all this [ __ ] right all your oakley's and your boots and all your [ __ ] I went in there by myself with a five shots tucked in my boot and a and a body wire taped up the back of my leg yeah that's the difference between me and you okay what what what alpha what a moment that had to be that smart responses typical SWAT you know they take a drag off their cigarette and they're like too bad for you dude you should have came with us all right so let's step into Operation Black biscuit that was the real name of it right that was the name of the infiltration operation into the Hells Angels yes named after a hockey puck but it was you know what the the case agent didn't want any leaks he didn't want anybody being suspicious or curious so if this was some kind of glamorous cool Hollywood name he didn't want to trigger anybody and he's a huge our case agents a huge hockey fan huh so when he named an operation black biscuit it had a hockey theme but all the supervisors thought it was racist you want to call arias all right so you get grabbed up as as the undercover guy the UC guy right so there's a case agent who's obviously got some kind of investigation going on with this chapter of the Hells Angels there in Arizona in Arizona actually in the West Coast were like running wild like with impunity the violence was out of control so the case agent came to me and wanted to take a crack at these guys and everybody said it was impossible you know the Angels had run for at that point like 55 years in their history and never been fully infiltrated mm-hmm and so like I said man I I'm not necessarily sure I was ever smart but I was always willing of impossible infiltration you've been shot twice already at this point are you want to go - yeah [ __ ] it you know over the course of my career I was involved in well over 500 undercover operations mental and TOD like you said everything from-from dime bags on the street corner out of the park and eight-balls up to cartel dope you know I bought like peashooter Saturday night specials up to shoulder-launched rockets missiles street dope - cartel dope pipe bombs that some Tweaker was makin on the workbench in his garage up to servo activated like remote-control c4 devices so when that case came around like I was I was grown I was you know I was prepared for it yeah and you had the resume this is probably the biggest case I assume that field office had probably approached up to that point but by the way but any sense to you that this was the Holy Grail because I just speaking from my own experience like we if you got an opportunity like this like everybody always looked up to you right in my community anyway like its kind of chance man if I if I could really just get in there and infiltrate this big crew or whatever like I'll be a legend I'll be known forever like was there a sense going into it that like this is a really big deal this is like this hat needs to work out there was there was that sense of massiveness to it and there was a sense of like to be quite honest with you there was a sense of intimidation to it you know I was like man like I've always operated as this hood rat as this as this white trash trailer park like drug-running GUG dealing hitman right so then you're entering into this biker world and they're they're protocols and the rules of the game are different right so I had to learn that on the fly a little bit were you like you're a motorcycle guy like you really no really not really I had to get up to speed pretty dang quick because you're riding with guys who are the best motorcycle riders on the planet you know these dudes go out for a carton of milk and they they take the front wheel off the ground man and ride wheelies to you know go get a pack of cigarettes oh man so you had to get on a bike you trained up I saw the part in the special where your first ride with them you were going 100 miles an hour at least you said is that correct yeah literally needed to have a pair of pliers to get my hands off the grips when that ride was done so you start all right so obviously you can't just hold on I ride a lot I like I I ride my bike a lot I've seen some guys though that that ride that are talented riders I would be scared shitless just let alone the fact that they can all [ __ ] kill you immediately let alone that bike could have killed you probably numerous times if I was there any sketchy situations on the bike but you know what as I gained their trust and their loyalty and their love I no longer was worried about getting shot or stabbed by these guys and I was worried about driving my motorcycle into a telephone coz there's some shaky times even for like the most experienced rider there's some [ __ ] that pops something you got bot holes [ __ ] anything that could just happen that could ruin your life well you know like riding in California we're riding in packs we're riding like super fast two by two like 18 inches apart and then you know you're on a California freeway and you start getting into traffic and these guys start splitting lanes but they don't back off the throttle these guys are splitting legs at 80 miles an hour [Music] because like me just thinking of myself pretty experienced right at this point like over a decade worth of riding there's still some times where I'm like oh [ __ ] that kind of product I'd have been sketchy I'm not an outlaw riding around my first time that's insane we'll think about and the last thing you want to do in this in in this Hells Angels pack in this group of guys is be the [ __ ] we don't want to be the guy that pumps the brakes or pulls to the side it's like you're a call in or you're not in yeah all right so let's talk about how you earn their trust like you couldn't just walk right into the Hells Angels chapter you started off with with a little affiliate group or what do you call it a little feeder group yeah you know it's not like you like walk up to the clubhouse door and knock and ask for an application right right you know so yeah there was actually two infiltrations within one we infiltrated a smaller outlaw biker group that was based in Mexico and infiltrated them not to investigate them but solely for the purpose of wearing their patch wearing their cut so that we had eyes we had credibility in the eyes of the Angels okay so we were already in that world right so and then we just started running with the Angels and and doing all the craziness that they're in and then at the point came where I was actually confronted by the Hells Angels leadership and said you're either coming with us or you're leaving the state but you are no longer allowed to ride with this other club it was an ultimatum how did why did you where were you given that ultimatum I think just because they saw us we created the illusion that we were making money that we were running guns into Mexico yeah and I it's it's all with these guys with any criminal syndicate man it always comes down to money and I think they saw guys they liked guys who represented the the lifestyle and the image they wanted but they saw money going out the window yeah I'm speaking of money then alright so we you like giving a real good budget on expenditures and [ __ ] like cash you can float around from me you know what I always had a lot of money in my pocket a big wad of money in my pocket and I made sure they saw it every chance I could give yeah okay was it also so I watched the episode on Netflix the the feeder group that you were in the first the first bike gang that you were in wasn't there a guy in there who was starting to spread that you were a cop to Hells Angels that is ultimately that's the backstory to what I said about this ultimatum the gang we infiltrated we we got in on them and then ignored them and they didn't like that and they started telling the Angels hey man these guys might be counterfeit man they showed up and and ran around with us for a little bit and we haven't seen him so the Angels actually within the big picture of the Hells Angels infiltration there was a cell of Hells Angels that that were on a murder mission for me and my partner's hmm and they were gonna kill us because they thought we were trying to infiltrate the gang and I went to one of the Hells Angels leaders convinced him that everybody was wrong that everybody had me wrong and that's when the ultimatum came that said hey man well I don't know what's going on in the past but from now on you're either with us or you're gone and I don't want to ever see your face again Wow but you had to be grinning on the inside you like [ __ ] I mean man this is all objective right yeah well you know what that's a great part of it but now I'm under their thumb now I'm under their control I lost all my independence when they when when some chapter president called at four o'clock in the morning and said bring me a vanilla milkshake I didn't have the ability to go tell him to go [ __ ] himself anymore yeah I think about that so they were there they're running coffee for the [ __ ] Hells Angels selling t-shirts washing bikes polishing guy's folks running their girlfriends the doctor's appointments all these unglamorous things that you don't see on Miami Vice that aren't cool but they don't have to do to be believable in their world it's man it's it's all a test-drive because your lunch every day you were a prospect right so it was a prospect yeah so hey they do they do really well on merch right the Hells Angels they're there their swag yeah oh my goodness and like you go to one of their runs a rally and and I did that job to set up a folding table table and then I'm sitting there selling t-shirts and hats and bumper stickers to doctors and lawyers noting all this fanboy base that comes out that some guy who like he's pulling people's teeth during the week and on the weekend he puts on a pair of wraparound sunglasses and a Hells Angels support [ __ ] and he's Billy badass I was one of the guys like if some reason I was always attached to the ATF - had a couple friends there so they would always grab me and my partner to go work with them but they would always take us to the swap meets to work surveillance there it's because in the Hells Angels one time we did it they had a hell of a March piece of their merch and then they churn millions and millions of legitimate dollars through all their swag it's unbelievable but you know they're a legendary like good for good reason their batteries and their staple of America you know what I mean it's a helmet great they're a part of Americana like we as a culture are fascinated by them you look at the success of like the Sons of Anarchy show like our culture is fascinated by that world but it's like looking at the mob world like those television shows in those movies let us go into a place that the common man isn't going to go yeah I'm gonna go there and so there's a fascination with it for sure well and I think I I'm one of the people that are fascinated by him always have been so I loved going to help on that stuff when I could but did you find like when you're in there like you know what if this things were different like I'd be friends with a lot of these guys like yeah they're criminals and I'm a cop but beyond that we get along well I'll tell you this as an undercover operative as you know you can never completely eliminate the human factor so you're dealing with people at times who are doing vile despicable things but then you see a side to their life that that's human you see them with their families with their kids and you see elements to them that you're like man I like this side of you right you know there was guy there was a couple guys who I had grown very close to in the Mesa charter of the Hells Angels bases outside of Phoenix like these guys like I slept at their house they slept at my house I partied with these guys I ate with these guys they took a woman into the Mesa Hells Angels clubhouse they boot stopped her to the brink of death they wrapped her up in a in a rug took her out in the desert and cut her head off she Wow now there was elements to these dudes running around with them like they were like enjoyable like she wouldn't pool with them drinking beer with them riding bikes with them hanging out they were likable at the same site they were capable of decapitating an innocent woman because she insulted them so how do you separate that Wow I think man that's right so me I gotta think all right first of all well get to this the psychological part of it after we wrap up this case you did this for how long total were you on a two-year run with these guys you're wrong and two years like when I say two years I'm saying every day every night yeah week after week month after month with these cats you're in it and at home you have a family I did yes I do how did that work out not very good yeah yeah you know there was actually I came home one time and like like I'm in my in my street persona and my wife says to me you cannot walk in this house after being gone for weeks or months at a time and treat us like we're Street criminals and then in my self-defense I was like man I'm not a light switch I can't turn this on and off yeah people that dabble and what I do for a living end up dead and then sure response was well I understand you're not a light switch but when you come here you better install a damn dimmer and turn this did you have to kill anybody to get in well that's actually a good question yes and no so actually the way we finally pushed our way over the top was I told to hells angels that one of our adversaries was down in Mexico and I wanted to go kill it right that was I wanted that I wanted the job they gave me a gun to do it they obliterated the serial numbers off of it they gave me the instructions on how I should do it and we went down to Mexico and killed one of the Mongols motorcycle gang members beat him with a bat duct-taped his hands and his feet buried him in a show shallow grave shot him in the head took pictures took the bloody cut off of them took it all back to the Hells Angels convinced them that I had committed a murder for him when I did that they put a vest on me they put a cut on me and said like welcome to the gang like you took care of business you showed that you are ready to be a member what they didn't realize it was all a hoax we fabricated the entire murder and bluffed them into thinking that we had committed it Oh [ __ ] on I saw you guys had fake goat brains and fake blood all over the place the pictures were very very convincing we brought in a homicide detective and I knew what my story was gonna be because I wanted my story for this murder to fit my cover so I told this homicide detective this cat's got to look like he's been duct-taped like he's been beaten with a ball bat and popped in that so the homicide detective built that built a crime scene that fit the story I was going to tell and then we took pictures of it and before we actually put those in play the homicide detective took those pictures to a homicide detectives meeting and passed them out and said does anybody have a John Doe out in the desert I caught this case and I don't have any leads and all that homicide detectives are looking at the pictures and once he saw that the homicide detectives the guys that deal with this every day believed it was legit then he called the dogs off on them and said hey man I'm sorry I had to run this on you because we have an undercover that's getting ready to put these pictures in play and I needed to make sure that they were legit Oh homework man that's awesome triple-stamp a double-stamp being can't jump yeah but way better and that came because you came up with that idea because the case had reached a point where because you were a prospect that it was harder to get the kind of evidence you could get when you're an independent and your agency was about to pull the plug on the case right so you came up with this idea all the above good on you but we were we were tapping out on money we were tapping out on time I was physically mentally spiritually exhausted man from two years with these guys I was literally I would work all day and night and I would go to sleep and I was so worn out I would boohoo cry myself to sleep at night thinking that I couldn't go another day and then I'd sleep for a couple hours charge my batteries get up and be like okay you know what I can go a little bit more right if we were we were tapped out it had to come to an end one way or another and I was like I'll be damned if I put all this time in and I'm not getting that patch yeah the only God ever do it yeah you're a bad [ __ ] man I don't know if people just in your regular life recognize like I'm not the best undercover guy out there ever not even close but what I'm good at is surrounding myself with really smart really talented people and when they're amazing it helped me be amazing right that that's like I was smart enough I wasn't smart enough to decline the case I was smart enough to surround myself with brilliant people to help me how much all right so speaking of your help when you're out there interacting on a day to day basis obviously you can't be wired up with a transmitter constantly or were you with a recorder of some sort or was that only on alright today we have a clear-cut objective we need you to record today some days yes some days no it was it was hit or miss you know if I felt like I was going to get shook down or patted down or searched for a wire obviously you know that's not the day to have a piece of electronics like duct taped up your ass right right all right and let's say on any given day or you're in there they discover you're a cop your cover gets blown how close is back up or is there any background as you know like there's typically there's cover teams hovering you know whether they're paying at or not like you know what you'd net you're never quite certain whether your wires working yeah you're never quite certain I always viewed me as my cover team I always viewed things that like if I have a problem it is not on anybody else to solve I have to resolve it because I always looked at the cover guys I thought the best these dudes are gonna do is show up late get some retribution and hose my brains off the pump off the porch that's as good as it's gonna get yeah that's a good way to look at it you have to out of necessity this is something I used to help teach at this undercover school Top Gun and they call out here in Indiana are you guys busting somebody outside by the way there's been like 45 cops by by our office since we start talking so in that school Todd you were top gun instructor so this is one like did that mindset that we always teach the new guys this when they come in because we're the role players they come in to do their bye or whatever and we're like okay stop right now [ __ ] goes bad I pull a gun or I go to the drawer for a gun I call you out for being a cop what's your plan bus signal I'm gonna call the bus signal I'm like okay you're what your transmitter is gonna work about 60% of the time so maybe you saved the bus signal as your secondary plan and come up with a different primary plane like what is it we're like there's a door right there primary plan is get my ass out fast as I can as I scream Mickey Mouse Mickey Mouse Mickey Mouse or whatever my bus signal is is it something that you said earlier you talked about like buying Street dope and then we evolved into this conversation of like infiltrating an international organized crime syndicate right from having done balls and and and and you know I think by in the street dope is more dangerous to be quite honest with you really like you're in this big syndicate and you spend time with them and you gain their trust and you gain their loyalty and you gain their love and these there was no doubt there was a point in time where these guys that I was working on would have stepped in front of a bullet for me right but when you're buying hmm Street dope out of the park or out of somebody's crack house that is super dangerous especially when you're dealing with kids because they don't have enough life's experiences behind them to know what it means to point a gun at somebody or pull the trigger on somebody super Dane Street work Street undercover work super dangerous more dangerous than what I did in my opinion well that's so interesting guys taking you you've done one offs though where it's just oh we're gonna use you for today you're gonna know you're never okay well I was gonna ask you the difference I would have assumed for me I would have been scarier to do what you did but definitely I will argue and you're not gonna win this argument it's more psychologically damaging it's amount of time you spend like over the course of time it wears on you but you know what what's more dangerous than knocking on the door of a crack house with people that don't know you especially like when you're in the hood and you're a white boy trying to buy a rock yeah you're a robbery victim perhaps blasted off that porch right these guys like once I won their trust man they weren't gonna hurt me they were gonna protect me yeah well that's interesting it was the regular except for the 80 miles an hour weaving through traffic until you show up in court and testify against them the things you don't think about there was a typical white boy undercover move like you would go out when you had to go to the hood all right I'm gonna be robbed today sure thing like yeah I walk in the projects we get robbed half the time you know like one of my best friends bought more crack rocks out of inner city Detroit like and this a white boy then is imaginable right and this dude rest is like with a baseball cap and like a golf shirt and Dockers and loafers with tassels on them and he walks up to the crack house and says I'm here to buy crack and they say get off my porch and he's like man I don't get off your porch because guess what your neighbor's selling crack and this neighbor is selling crack someone's gonna buy it and you know what like you think people in the suburbs don't smoke crack I don't want to be here to come down here to get my product and I know you're gonna sell me at white boy prices I know I gotta pay more for it I don't even care because I'm marking it up when I take it home anyway so just sell me the damn rock that's the most fun [ __ ] Mayo job is having it's like it's like doing comedy like crowd work versus telling the joke having to think on your feet is the most fun like coming up in the moment and I never pretended to talk street or in that stuff but it just was myself because you know what people who look like me and talk like me like crack just as much as everybody else so I you know I love being that guy and be like well yeah you don't look like you belong here yeah I'm here buying this so my girlfriend doesn't come here and suck your dick for it and keep my twenty bucks so this comes down the indictments the raids all that stuff what was the the final like aftermath like how many how many people did you take down the whole Charter with this done I think we arrested 55 people 16 of them were charged with Rico we had a couple death penalty charges on the guys that beheaded the girl yeah now the sad side is that the are government internally started arguing about how to prosecute the case and present evidence and we have blew up our case the good guys have blew up they're two-faced all on our own which as as the undercover operator is extremely frustrating because I'm like man blood sweat and tears for two years and now you guys with neckties on are gonna [ __ ] this up are you kidding me so there were some problems on the investigation and with it was problems like it what they were legal problems on discovery like what we were gonna let them have what we were obligated legally to let them have what we were gonna hold back what were we gonna use to protect informants and things like that stuff like way outside my pay grade right well then they burnt your health down after right - well you know when the case ended and now this international organized crime syndicate who they believed jaybird Davis was this gun-running hitman when they find out that j-bird Davis is actually Jay Dobyns a federal agent yeah there's what they were a little bit pissed off did you not get arrested that same night that everybody else got arrested I assumed they would arrest you and then take you out the back door or is that what happens sometimes yeah we do that and that's a good tactic sometimes we didn't do it on this case but you know what when all the buddies that you've been running with for two years are all sitting in a jail cell together and like the one guy who was in the mix isn't there they figure it out pretty and they did that [ __ ] and they did burn your house down all right Oh like when it came out the death and violence threats were dude they were through the roof right I had the Hells Angels had a contract on me they sold a contract to the Aryan Brotherhood they sold a contract to the ms-13 the Russian mob the Bravo is in on it LA street gangs were trying to get in on it so I had four or five murder contracts on me there were threats out there to kidnap and torture my daughter who was a teenager there were there were threats out there to kidnap my son from school there was a threat out there to videotape the gang rape of my wife and make me watch it and then ultimately in August of 2008 yeah arsonists attacked my home and burned my house to the ground Wow Wow were you home did you move my house gone my wife and my kids were home and Soviet you know ultimately the investigators come out they determine it's an arson and and they said you know what this this was a botched failed assassination attempt that's what it was yeah so did you did you not go into I guess cuz you're like witness protection sounds like it was created for this exact situation is that not inaccurate you know Pat I'll tell you what man there is no such thing as witness protection for cops witness protection is for informants witness protection is for cooperating defendants you know like will put Sammy the bull Gravano in witness protection he's got 17 murders behind him so that he'll rat on John Gotti yeah but but if Todd needs some help hey dude you're on your own man when you signed up for it that's the mentality do you now that did you at least like you still live in Arizona like you're you're so close to where all this went down has it finally like are you to a point now where you're like okay everything's good now or do you still from time to time you catch yourself watching what's going on behind you at a restaurant or looking next to you when the car pulls up at the stoplight beside you yeah you know what I'm pretty careful I don't live in fear because if I live in fear they win but I live with caution I know what they're capable of I've seen what they're capable of but like I try to live my life you know I am I stood up to it and to be quite honest with you after this amount of time they've just found new people to hate man I think they're bored with me yeah today like how do you like did you ever have to like psychologically I would assume this takes a toll that there's some sense of PTSD or something associated with putting yourself through 500 some undercover operations list maybe being the biggest but you had a lot of others to the is there any after effect cyclones tell you what like there's a good side to that there's a happy ending to all that right I was an absolute train wreck I was like the nastiest darkest most despair I hated everybody man to be quite honest with you but it highlighted for me it highlighted my failed spirituality right I realize I'm a control guy I tried to control everything right and make everything go the way I wanted to and I realized I'm not controlling anything man none of this is on me and I realized you know if the only time you're talking to God is when you're in trouble you're in trouble yeah it's true it's very true yes man J was the decapitation incident was that the wildest thing you saw in person in your time I was not I was not there when Cynthia Garcia was murdered I was aware of it after and then and then tried to pursue the two murderers like i named kevin augustiniak and a guy named paul eyesight became a focal point of what we were trying to do because we were trying to tie them in to the murder we had a decapitated body this lady had she had like five or six kids bad that like mom just doesn't come home one night after going to party with the Hells Angels you know and so we were trying to catch them but we were trying to get justice for those kids - how do you stay out of that like how like I assume there was other occasions whether like hey can you help us can you help us kill this person or things like that how do you stay out of those situations well I'll tell you one you know I'm I'm in Phoenix and I get sent on a murder mission to kill some guys in Las Vegas and it's non-negotiable and they're telling me you're gonna do this this is how you're gonna do it and then the the kicker the caveat was we're gonna be hiding around the corner and if you don't kill them we're gonna kill you that was I mean those were the rules right so in route to Las Vegas I get in contact with some cops the Las Vegas metropolitan Police Department tell them what the plan is and actually the cops intervened on the targets of the murder and got him stopped and got him held so I showed up to where I was supposed to be when I was supposed to be there waited around patrolled around like I was ready to take care of business when that when the victims never showed up in the eyes of the Hells Angels who were watching all they knew was that I was there ready to handle the work that they gave me they didn't know that I had orchestrated to have it diffused hold on so you just called the Las Vegas police department hey what's going on yeah so I'm gonna cop put them in the Hells Angels they want me to kill a guy is there any way you guys we pick him up make sure he doesn't show up there and they're like yeah you got a buddy ten-four we just got done arrested some blacked-out kid on a strip anyway that's that's an oversimplification of it but it's not that far off I get people at Las Vegas Metro that I could call and say hey man this is j-bird I'm running up here this is the deal I need some help and I need it now but but your explanation of it really isn't all that far off from the truth I'll buy your network I just called like I need this taken care of and you know the two guys to reach to in that area exactly I had worked I had worked with the with the Vegas Metro guys like very closely I had spent a lot of time in Vegas after Timothy McVeigh blew up the Oklahoma City Building right I got sent to Vegas cosmic VAE there was some remnants of McVeigh's crew in the in the Southern Nevada area so I got sent there to try to scoop up and figure out who was who in the zoo there who was left after McVeigh you know did his deed in Oklahoma City and in the process of that case we actually got in on a crew of people that were planning to blow up three Las Vegas casinos as a part of Oklahoma City part two they were gonna blow up the Mirage the Treasure Island and the Golden Nugget and we diffused that case in the process of this undercover infiltration but I so I built some strong bonds with those guys in Vegas I had a man I got sent there like I had people to call that knew I was legit three bombings like I've never heard of it we just called you I was that guy that say three blocks that these cats were planning Oklahoma City part two this was the the leftovers from McVeigh and they were like hey McVeigh blow up the Oklahoma City Building in Oklahoma City but so what it's in the heartland it's in its farmers and ranchers and good Christians we're going to knock the piss out of America in Las Vegas where there's drugs and booze and sex and prostitution and gambling like David we're going to make a bigger statement and we in on a crew where we actually sold the crew c4 bombs that they were going to use to cause these three explosions and then when we transferred the the devices to them you know we knocked him off and that was the end of the case that's something his resume that wasn't so up there by the way I'll tell you why you don't hear about it it was like Section C page nine in the Las Vegas Sun is because Las Vegas is driven by tourism and the newspaper sure as hell ain't gonna promote that someone was going to blow up 3-prime casinos on the strip Wow what's your relationship like now with law enforcement and particularly the ATF for the most part it's very good like I've always had a love with for street cops for people with boots on the ground for the agents that are out there taking the risks to keep me and you safe with ATF's executives with ATF's top-shelf bosses huh men they wouldn't if I was laying on the street on fire they wouldn't piss on me to put me out really what Wow that's a--that's a real big big certificate of appreciation there I mean Jesus Christ you're Jay Dobson well you know it when you deal and probably in any business right probably in your business in Sports one anything when you deal with people that are insecure and then you put corruption and power and titles and influence behind them man that that's a dangerous combination man yeah it's real political up there so I don't know I don't know if you saw this or not but the Secret Service appreciates me ever seen one of those I don't know if you ever seen one of those I mean I know you saved three blocks of Vegas but I don't know if you've ever done one of these I've done a lot of [ __ ] and I don't have those now I'm jealous you ever protect the governor and any 500 J during your time in the infiltration process you were obviously gathering information put a case together on these guys but were your eyes opened it all - the way they operate as let's call it a syndicate in the sense that you could take that information and use it against other operations in the future or was it mostly just all about taking down these specific groups that's a great question these guys that angels have modeled themselves after traditional organized crime so you have various tiers in various levels of criminality with everything down to foot soldiers down on the ground who are doing the dirt and then money flows up to the kingpins you know to the compost to the bosses and and they're smart about it they're they've taken the organized crime model in how you know the the the five families of New York operate and they've turned that they've sold that model and adapted it for themselves that's a great question they there's a bottle Network there was a guy here it's a doctor and he was a member of the Hells Angels like in Franklin Indiana I think it was cuz every now and then they would be like hey go drive by the doctor's house there's two bikes outside to get the plate doors and he guy there was a Hells Angel that was part of the case we worked on that was a pilot for America West Airlines Wow right and this cat like when you saw him he looked like a pilot for America West Airlines right but then he'd come home and roll his sleeves up and he was covered in tattoos and the best part about this he was not a guy who was out there doing a lot of dirt but he was flying a commercial airliner three days a week with hundreds of passengers on it but the best thing I loved about him was that he would bring flight attendants back to our parties that's why that's how I got Pat's dead yeah in with all the stewardesses everybody knew that that Ralph made his trip from Phoenix to Seattle and back Phoenix on Thursdays and Thursdays he was gonna drag those flight attendants and say hey you guys want to party with the Hells Angels super cool super fun super crazy you're gonna have a great time you know and then these flight attendants would show up and they'd start like pouring booze down their throat and roofie in their drinks and the [ __ ] was on what's scariest thing you ever done outside it was it would it be included in anything you said here like that would this one thing that like if you had your biggest almost [ __ ] my pants moment I think probably when I was most scared was that first undercover deal when I like not these big glorious glamorous sexy ones like that one where you've never done it before I was actually meeting with a gangster on the south side of Chicago a black kid who was selling me a gun that was used in a murder and we were doing a trunk to trunk deal he popped his trunk I popped my trunk we exchanged money the the contraband exchanged and man like if he was paying attention he would have known because I was scared shitless yeah you'll never forget it probably all right you know you do it and then you you have some success and then you do it again and then you do it again it's like anything else you know you look at someone that operates on someone's brain you look at the guy that flies the Space Shuttle and we say like oh man I don't think I could do that yes you could with the right experience and training and the amount of time it takes you could do it that like what I did anybody could do it with the right experience and training and and and all those things that go into making anybody great at what they do and willingness that's I think that's the biggest and courage and bravery a lot of things that you are just leaving off the list here that not everybody has that you definitely have thought you as well by the way so you're now retired from the Hells Angels okay right now we're talking to you you have probably ten rings on your hands right now tat it up your goat yeah you have eight rings on your hands you're tatted up you have one of the most legendary biker goatees I've seen in a long time I mean is it it's still very much a part of you the biker lifestyle it appears that disco tee is a lot like your hair was before you got the haircut man like it does its own thing mugshot I'm sure you guys saw that what the hell yes you know and literally have not had these rings off my fingers in like for any reason in probably 20 years really for any reason I sleep with them I take a shower with on my workout with them on one hand I have the Virgin Mary which to me symbolizes like innocence in purity right on the other hand I have a lion because I love the saying everybody wants to be a lion until it's time to do the line [ __ ] right very good do you still ride I have a motorcycle that literally sits in my garage with a sheet over it that hasn't been ridden for years oh so that's not something like you need you left with this love of just right it was never I was never one of these live to ride ride to live guys I got that all out of my system with these cats for sure yeah so what do you do now what's what's life like now for Jay Dobyns I well like right now I coach high school football I've coached high school football for the last ten years we're right in the middle of an undefeated season where the number two no and that at the school I coach at we literally run our high school football program like the college program I was a part of 30 years ago it is a year-round like huge commitment for the coaches for the players for the parents everybody I have I have a podcast for cops called Copland where I've interviewed some like superstar cops that have all kinds of crazy dynamic amazing stories I've written a couple books as you mentioned in the interview you know I'm a public a public school kid so I think people are amazed sometimes then I was actually able to put sentence together and make a paragraph and then make a chapter right I do some public speaking I do training for law enforcement groups I do some interpret speaking and and that may not that keeps me just as busy as I was when I was out buying dope and guns and bombs when you are when when you said Copland earlier that you ran a Ford to in Copley and I was like oh good name there Copley and I'm happy to hear that that's podcasting or so it's a it's a good it's a great [ __ ] brand and I didn't hesitate to mention it because it's so small and so tiny and so unknown it's absolutely no threat to you guys no we want more people to listen I think people like you who have done so much for the community should succeed and we hope everybody listens to that I honestly hope everybody on earth listen as big as you want that's awesome yeah you have to go around more street cred than anybody else in that whole field so you should be the host of Copland usually you know like and I don't take myself too serious like I'm proud of what I accomplished I'm proud of what I did but I don't take myself too seriously as soon as you start taking yourself serious and that's that's dangerous man I don't do that you get hit up by Hollywood mutts like hey you wanna come and do some consulting on this film or what I have I've done some consulting I actually consulted I don't know if you guys are familiar with a movie called den of thieves oh yeah bin exam so I was the law enforcement consultant on den of thieves and if you watch close enough I have a scene in den of thieves with O'Shea Jackson and Jerry Butler nice Jerry wasn't on me that's a boy boy boy or plays a guard at the at the Fed yeah at the at the at the Federal Bank and and I've come to note Nate and I like me if you are if you need a good story for your podcast Todd once armed the bad people yeah he had a gun on his leg he kicked the trailer door in gun went flying off his leg armed the bad guy door slams shut he has no gun they had first time wearing an ankle gun when you like when you spend a career in law enforcement when the boys get together and and this the same thing happens in sports when the GU boys get together everybody's got these glorious arrest stories and cases and busts and seizures and search warrants but when the boys get together those are the stories and those are the stories they love because they're real yeah it's the same thing like when I see Pat do it when they like he has an NFL buddy or former teammate in there they all talk about the funny [ __ ] that happened in the locker room or one night when they went out you know those are the things you hold on to and all we can sing in no one's telling the story like hey remember when we chase these guys and we got in the shootout and we arrest everybody there since stories like remember the time I [ __ ] my pants on surveillance I'm about to shoot my fans I have a meeting I am so thankful you stopped by are laying right here today man this is awesome to be here with you guys thank you they still have a lot of questions I have to go I am so sorry but man what a [ __ ] legend you are sir thank you an impact hey Jay I'll get you out of here it's been almost an hour man I can't thank you enough any time at all that you passed through Indianapolis please holler at me and come by and see us here I'll hook you up with whatever I can hook you up with with the comedy club or wherever else you know if you want a night out I'll go I'll go buy you dinner and some new drink I drink hey I noticed you've been you've been hitting a vape I and in the I assume you just smoked sing after sing after saying in the a yes but there was a point in time during that case I was smoking three packs of cigarettes a day I was smoking like lighting them end to end about as fast as I could smoke em Plus like drink in a case of Red Bull and eaten hydroxi like two old items oh yeah none that ruined my heart the hydroxy cuts that still had the ephedra in oh yeah I want to notice like candy but you were jacked subin so why did you did you was there workout time at the clubhouse there with you no I'll tell you what man I ran with guys there's Hells Angels that literally our professional world-class Fitness bodybuilders really like they don't drink they don't smoke they get their rest they're like doing meal prepping and and wakin up at five o'clock in the morning to eat up fillet Wow and go to the gym and and so yeah so like I took that and and and jumped on that and went into the gym with these guys yeah - well you're like yeah I'm stuck in this two years undercover operation I might as well get [ __ ] built eight thanks so much once again it's want people to know that your books are out there I'm gonna name them off again one more time no angel my heroine undercover journey to the inner circle of the Hells Angels which I assume it's this operation black biscuit ground complete story of that and then catching hell a true story of abandonment and betrayal this is more like an overall your total career your body of work exactly Thank You Man obviously to two great books I can't wait to read it go to Jay Dobyns dot-com find out more about what's going on with him and what he has available and please please please listen to Copland you guys are bugging me all the time about good cop podcasts and we've yet to be able to come up with one I guarantee you that's I must listen so go over to check out cop Lane I assume it's on iTunes Spotify all that stuff it is it's on all of them and I mean I'd like you know we're kind of just getting started but we've interviewed like Donnie Brasco Joe Pistone you know like some some legendary you know some some legendary military law enforcement firefighters like with stories that literally like when you're listening to these dudes tell their story like I'm sitting there listening to them and like tears are running down my face with some of the with what some of these people went through to take care of me and you and our families right and so that's what it's about nice man good for you everybody check that out I can't thank you enough one more time guys let's give it up for Jay thank you

Channel: The Pat McAfee Show

Views: 608,802

Keywords: pat mcafee, heartland radio, 2.0, hells angels, hells angels 2019, hells angels documentary george christie, show, podcast, sports, nfl, ncaa, football, comedy, lol, stand up, for the brand, punter, kicker, motorcycle club, outlaw bikers, harley davidson, sons of anarchy, hells angels mc, american chopper, hells angels prison run, hells angels ride, hells angels on wheels, hells angels forever

Id: xI9S6kq1Y9U

Length: 69min 14sec (4154 seconds)

Published: Thu Oct 24 2019