♪ >> Doug: WELCOME ONCE AGAIN TO "FR. SPITZER'S UNIVERSE". I'M DOUG KECK HERE AT THE INTERSECTION OF FAITH AND REASON COMING TO YOU FROM OUR STUDIOS IN THE HEART OF IRONDALE, ALABAMA ON MOTHER ANGELICA WAY. LAST WEEK, WE WERE TALKING ABOUT HEALINGS AND WE'LL TALK A LITTLE BIT MORE ABOUT THEM AT THE TOP OF THE SHOW. AND OUR MAIN TOPIC, WHAT DID JESUS SAY ABOUT HEAVEN AND HELL. THAT, OF COURSE, WE'RE LOOK AT YOUR QUESTIONS, AND YOU CAN EMAIL US AT "FR. SPITZER'S UNIVERSE", ewtn.com FR. SPITZER AND YOU CAN TWEET US AND SEND IT TO FACEBOOK. LOOK AT THE ADDRESSES ON YOUR SCREEN. NOW, FOR ALL THINGS FATHER SPITZER, THE MAGIS CENTER. magiscenter.com AND ALSO, FROM ewtnRC.com YOU CAN GET BOOKS RIGHT THERE. LET'S TURN AS WE ALWAYS DO, TO INTERFACE THROUGH THE MAGIC OF TELEVISION, FROM FATHER SPITZER COMING LIVE, INTO VIEW ON THE GREAT MONITOR THERE. AND WELCOME, FATHER SPITZER GREAT TO SIGH YOU AGAIN. >> Father: GREAT TO SEE YOU, DOUG. >> Father: WELL, LAST WEEK, WE WERE TALKING A LOT OF THINGS RELATED TO THE HEALINGS AND WE STILL HAD A COUPLE OF QUESTIONS TO GET AS A FOLLOWUP. WE NEVER SEEM TO GET TO ALL OF THE QUESTIONS. BUT HERE'S ONE THAT CAME IN, A PERSON RECENTLY WROTE TO US,OFF LAST WEEK'S SHOW. THIS QUESTION HAS BEEN BOTHERING ME. WHY DID JESUS MAKE MORE WINE FOR THE WEDDING AT CANA? THE APOSTLE PAUL WROTE THAT DRUNKARDS WILL NOT INHERIT THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN. HOW DO THESE TWO PARTS OF HOLY SCRIPTURE FIT TOGETHER? WHAT IS THE OFFICIAL AND HISTORICAL TEACHING? EMILY. >> Father: WELL, EMILY, I THINK HAVING WINE AT A WEDDING CEREMONY WAS PART OF A VERY IMPORTANT CELEBRATION. ONE OF THE MOST IMPORTANT, NOT JUST FAMILIAL CELEBRATIONS BUT RELIGIOUS CELEBRATIONS IN ISRAEL AND OF COURSE, IF THE FAMILY RAN OUT OF WINE BEFORE THE APPROPRIATE TIME, IT WAS REALLY SIGNIFICANT EMBARRASSMENT. OBVIOUSLY, THE MOTHER OF JESUS IS RESPONDING TO THIS NEED. SHE SEES THAT HER FRIENDS ARE LIKELY TO BECOME VERY, VERY EMBARRASSED SO SHE PREVAILS ON JESUS AND JESUS AT FIRST DOESN'T WANT TO DO IT. HE BASICALLY SAYS, LOOK, MY TIME HAS NOT YET PRE VEILED FOR HIS TIME AND SHE WANTS HIM TO DO AND ONCE SHE GIVES THE WORD TO THE WINE STEWARD, DO WHATEVER HE TELLS YOU AT THAT JUNCTURE, JESUS DOES PERFORM IT. AND REMEMBER, THE CAUSE AND EFFECT HERE ARE NOT, YOU KNOW, WE NEED MORE WINE SO THAT PEOPLE WILL GET DRUNKER. THE WHOLE IDEA OF THIS, BEHIND JESUS DOING THIS, IS FIRST OF ALL, HE WANTS TO PLEASE HIS MOTHER. AND HIS MOTHER IS DOING IT BECAUSE SHE WANTS HER FRIENDS TO AVOID EMBARRASSMENT. THEY UNDERESTIMATED AMOUNT OF WINE THEY WOULD NEED. AND AT THAT JUNCTURE, THERE WOULD BE SOME EMBARRASSMENT AND SHE PREVENTS THAT. AND I THINK THE IMPORTANT PART OF THE STORY IS, EVEN THESE THINGS, THESE LITTLE THINGS. JESUS IS NOT CONCERNED WITH THEM. IT'S NOT JUST THAT JESUS IS CONCERNED WITH THINGS OF GREAT MOMENT. HE IS CONCERNED OF THINGS OF GREAT MOMENT AND CONCERNED WITH THE LITTLE THINGS ON THE MINDS OF PEOPLE, OR IN THIS CASE, A SIGNIFICANT EMBARRASSMENT ON THE MINDS OF HIS FAMILY FRIENDS. AND SO, HE ACQUIESCES TO HIS MOTHER AND IN SO DOING, HE PERFORMS THE MIRACLE. NOT REALLY ABOUT PROVIDING A SUBSTANCE OF GETTING PEOPLE DRUNKER THAT'S NOT REALLY THE WAY TO LOOK AT IT. >> AND ALSO, MY UNDERSTANDING WOULD BE IMPORTANT AT THAT TIME IN HISTORY THAT PEOPLE TENDED TO DRINK WINE BECAUSE IT WAS SAFER THAN DRINKING THE WATER. AND ALSO, THE ALCOHOL LEVEL I BELIEVE WAS SUBSTANTIALLY LOWER? I'M NOT SURE BUT THEY DIDN'T OVERDO IT LIKE WE DID TODAY. WE THINK OF MORE LIQUOR AT WEDDINGS AND WE'RE TALKING ABOUT A MAJOR ABUNDANCE HERE. SO, I DO THINK THAT THEY REALLY DID HAVE THESE THINGS WITHIN MODERATION. THEY UNDERESTIMATED THE, WHAT THE FAMILY HAD. AND WE'RE NOT ABLE TO ACCOMMODATE THE SOCIAL EXPECTATION. JESUS' MOTHER RUSHES INTO THE GAP. >> AND WHEN SOMEBODY TELLS YOU THEY ARE DRINKING HOLYLAND WINE WITH LESS ALCOHOL, THEY ARE NOT BEING TRUTHFUL. OKAY, THE TRUTH COMES OUT! >> Father: THAT'S RIGHT. THAT'S RIGHT. >> Doug: NOW I KNOW. NOW I KNOW. UP NEXT. HAVING TO DO WITH HEALINGS. BUT RELATED TO OUR LADY, HELLO, FATHER, COULD YOU PLEASE DISCUSS THE MIRACULOUS HEALINGS THAT THE LORD BESTOWED FOLLOWING OUR LADY'S APPARITIONS, PARTICULARLY A OUR LADY OF LOURDES. AND NOW, WE'RE MOVING OUT FROM THE NEW TESTAMENT TO MORE MODERN TIMES AND CONNECTED AGAIN TO OUR LADY IN CANA. >> Father: YOU IF YOU WANT SOME GOOD SOURCE, GO TO THE INTERNATIONAL LOURDES MEDICAL COMMISSION ON GOOGLE THERE. YOU ARE GOING TO GET A WHOLE LOT OF INFORMATION ABOUT THIS. BUT LOURDES IS A VERY GOOD CASE IN POINT OF HOW THE BLESSED MOTHER IS CERTAINLY HELPING US AND HOW SHE IS ACTIVE IN THE MIRACULOUS HEALINGS IN THE 20TH AND 21ST CENTURIES. WHAT'S SO INTERESTING ABOUT THE LORD'S MIRACLES, EARLY ON, IT WAS RECOGNIZED THAT MIRACLES WERE CONTINUING TO HAPPEN EVEN AFTER THE APPARITIONS HAD STOPPED AT LOURDES SO A MEDICAL COMMISSION WAS SET UP THERE, AND THE MEDICAL COMMISSION, VERY IMPORTANT MEDICAL COMMISSION DOCUMENTS, X-RAYS, PATIENTS, AND DOCUMENTING REAL MIRACLES THAT TAKE PLACE THERE AT LOURDES. NOW, THERE ARE MANY MIRACLES THAT ARE ATTESTED TO, PROBABLY MIRACLES AND I KNOW, I THINK THERE'S 71 OF THEM THAT THEY HAVE OFFICIALLY DECLARED, ABSOLUTELY NO NATURAL EXPLANATION. I MEAN, EVERYTHING HAS BEEN RULED OUT. AND LOURDES HAS THAT, WITH VERY FINE DOCTORS AND FINE DOCUMENTATION THAT CAN REALLY SHOW MIRACLES THERE. THOSE YOU CAN RULE OUT NATURAL CAUSES. ARE THERE MANY, MANY MORE MIRACLES THAT TAKE PLACE AT LOURDES THAN SIMPLY HAVE BEEN APPROVED THROUGH THE SCIENTIFIC COMMISSION. ABSOLUTELY. YOU KNOW, PROBABLY 50, 60 TIMES MORE MIRACLES THAT HAVE TAKEN PLACE THERE. THEY ARE VERY PROBABLY MIRACLES WHERE THEY JUST COULDN'T GET ALL OF THE DOCUMENTATION IN PLACE TO SHOW THAT, RULE OUT HE INVENTED ARTIFICIAL STITCHING. ONE OF THE FEW PEOPLE TO HAVE DONE, THIS OBVIOUSLY DIVINE PROVIDENCE IN AND OF ITSELF TO GET DOCTOR CARROLL INTO THE CHURCH. THINK THAT WAS PART OF IT. AND ALSO TO HAVE HIS TESTIMONY INFLUENCING GENERATIONS OF PEOPLE. AND ONE TIME HE WAS LITERALLY RIDING ON A TRAIN DOWN TO SOUTHERN FRANCE SEES THIS WOMAN WHO OBVIOUSLY HAS BEEN SEVERELY EFFECTED BY A TUMOR AND HAS SWELLING ALL OVER HER BODY. SHE'S TUBERCULAR. AND HE LOOKS AT HER AND SAYS, THIS WOMAN PROBABLY HAS, AT MOST, TWO OR THREE DAYS TO LIVE. THERE'S NO POSSIBILITY. WELL, BY QUOTE UNQUOTE, COINCIDENCE, IF YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN, HE'S ON A TRAIN COMING BACK FROM SOUTHERN FRANCE AS SHE'S WALKING ON TO THE TRAIN AFTER HAVING HAD A MIRACLE AT LOURDES. WHEN SHE GETS BACK ON TO THE TRAIN, SHE'S WALKING ON HER OWN POWER! ALL THE SWELLING HAS GONE DOWN COMPLETELY! THERE'S ABSOLUTELY NO SIGN OF ANY KIND OF TUBERCULOSIS, ANY TRESS ON THE BODY FROM YEARS DYING ATROPHYING FROM TUBERCULOSIS AND SHE WALKS BACK ON TO THE TRAIN UNDER HER OWN POWER. AND ALEXIS CARROLL LOOKS AT HER AND SAYS, YOU COULDN'T BE THE SAME PERSON THAT I EXAMINED ON THE WAY DOWN HERE. AND SHE SAYS, OH, I'M THE SAME PERSON. RECOUNTS THE CONVERSATION THEY HAD TOGETHER. AND HE'S COMPLETELY BLOWN AWAY. AND OF COURSE, THIS BEGINS THE STORY OF HIS OWN CONVERSION. IT'S COMPLETELY OUTSIDE OF THE PROSPECT OF NATURAL CAUSATION PLANING IT. LOURDES IS ONE OF THOSE EXTRAORDINARY PLACES THAT WE SEE CONTINUING MIRACULOUS MINISTRY OF BEING CONTINUED. AND BY THE WAY, THAT CONTINUES TOO IN THE NAME OF JESUS. THERE ARE MANY PRIESTS OUT THERE, WHO DO HAVE, AND ALSO, MANY LAY PEOPLE WHO DO HAVE SIGNIFICANT HEALING MINISTRIES IN THE NAME OF JESUS. SOME OF THESE PRIESTS HAVE SOME VERY, VERY INTERESTING MIRACLES. PADRE PIO, THERE'S SOME VERY WELL DOCUMENTED MIRACLES THAT HE PERFORMED, ESPECIALLY ON A BLIND GIRL, IN PARTICULAR, WHO DID NOT HAVE PUPILS AND WAS RESTORED TO SIGHT. MINE, THERE ARE SOME REALLY, REALLY INTERESTING MIRACLES IN THE NAME OF JESUS AS WELL. AND OF COURSE, MARY ESPECIALLY AT LOURDES. JUST A GREAT QUESTION. >> Doug: AND LOURDES IS OBVIOUSLY, BECAUSE OF BERNADETTE, STILL A POPULAR APPARITION SIGHT. AND ACTUALLY, WE'VE BEEN BRINGING IN THE ROSARY FROM LOURDES IN ENGLISH, I BELIEVE, ON SUNDAY MORNING, WE'RE LOOKING TO EXPAND THAT AND IT'S VERY, VERY POPULAR AND WE'RE CARRYING A LOT OF THINGS THIS MONTH FOR FATIMA. WE'RE ENTERING INTO THE YEAR OF THE HUNDREDTH ANNIVERSARY OF OUR LADY OF FATIMA. LOTS OF EXCITEMENT GOING ON. >> Father: YES, MANY HEALING MIRACLES AT FATIMA BUT NOT AS MEDICALLY ESTABLISHED OR SCIENTIFIC VERACITY AS AT LOURDES. >> Doug: NOW, THIS MAY BE A CATHOLIC QUESTION. BUT SOMEBODY ASKED THIS ON FACEBOOK. >> Father: WELL, I THINK SOME MISUNDERSTAND THE PART OF MARY AND THEY INTENTIONALLY DOWN PLAY HER PART IN THE ECONOMY OF SALVATION. EVEN TODAY. THINK THE MISUNDERSTANDING COMES FROM TWO DIFFERENT ANGLES. ONE ANGLE IS, YOU KNOW, A SPIRITUAL MISUNDERSTANDING THAT SOMEHOW IF WE PRAY FOR THE INTERCESSION OF MARY, WE'RE GOING TO TAKE SOMETHING AWAY FROM JESUS. THINK FULTON J. SHEEN, VERY FAMOUS TELEVISION BISHOP, BASICALLY PUT AN END TO THAT. ONE TIME HE WAS ASKED JUST THAT QUESTION BY A FRIEND OF HIS. DON'T YOU CATHOLICS THINK THAT EVERY TIME YOU SIT THERE AND PRAY TO MARY, YOU ARE TAKING SOMETHING AWAY FROM JESUS. AND FULTON SHEEN LOOKS UP AND SAYS, WELL, LOOK, IF I LOVE YOUR MOTHER, DOES THAT MEAN I LOVE YOU ANY LESS? AND THAT SORT OF ENDS THE QUESTION. I MEAN, LOVE IS NOT OF THAT SAME ECONOMY. IF YOU LOVE SOMEBODY'S MOTHER OR YOU LOVE SOMEBODY'S FRIEND, YOU LOVE THEM MORE NOT LESS BECAUSE OF COURSE, THE LOVE HAS INTERPERSONAL CONNECTION WITH OTHERS INTIMATELY CONNECTED WITH IT. >> IT'S NOT LIKE SOME GAME. >> WELL, I LOVE THIS PERSON AND SO I CAN LOVE YOU AS WELL. >> THAT'S RIGHT. SAME THING WITH BIG FAMILIES. IF YOU HAVE SO MANY CHILDREN YOU CAN'T POSSIBLY LOVE THEM AS MUCH AS YOU CAN LOVE ONE. YES, BUT YOU ARE LOVING THEM THROUGH ONE ANOTHER AND YOU ARE LOVING EACH PERSON AND THEY ARE LOVING YOU BACK. THROUGH ONE ANOTHER. AND THAT, THAT PRECISELY SHOWS THAT LOVE'S DYNAMIC KEEPS MULTIPLYING NOT THROUGH US, THE BLESSED VIRGIN MARY, BUT ALSO THROUGH THE OTHER SAINTS ACTIVE IN THE ECONOMY OF SALVATION. I MEAN, JESUS CREATED ENOUGH SPACE FOR ALL OF US TO PARTICIPATE IN THE ECONOMY OF SALVATION EVEN AFTER OUR DEATH. AND CERTAINLY FOR THE SAINTS TO DO SO AND OF COURSE, THE BLESSED VIRGIN MARY PAR EXCELLENCE, SHE'S THE MOTHER OF THE DIVINE FAMILY WHICH IS THE MEANS THROUGH WHICH SALVATION HAS OCCURRED. SO, YOU KNOW, I JUST THINK THERE'S A MISUNDERSTANDING. >> THAT'S A GOOD WAY OF THINKING ABOUT IT. I HAVEN'T THOUGHT ABOUT IT IN REALIZING THAT'S HOW PEOPLE DO TEND TO DOWN PLAY OTHER CHRISTIAN DENOMINATIONS DOWN PLAY IT. AND WE THINK THAT THE MOVE OF THE PASSION OF THE CHRIST HELPED IMPROVE BLESSED VIRGIN MARY'S STATURE WITH SOME PROTESTANT DENOMINATIONS. NOW, JUST BEFORE WE GO TO BREAK, WE'RE GOING TO TALK ABOUT OUR TOPIC, HEAVEN AND HELL. BUT THE SAME QUESTION. PEOPLE GO TO LOURDES AND NOT EVERY ONE IS HEALED. WE TALKED ABOUT THAT WITH OUR LORD LAST TIME. AND WHY IS IT NOT THAT EVERY ONE IS HEALED? IS IT FAIR THAT SOME GET HEALED AND SOME DON'T GET HEALED? >> Father: YOU KNOW, I THINK IT'S ALWAYS FAIR BECAUSE IT'S IN GOD'S WISDOM. LET'S GO THROUGH THE CONDITIONS ONE MORE TIME OF THE AND I'M GOING TO ADD ONE OTHER THING. IF JESUS IS GOING TO HEAL, RIGHT? HE'S GOING TO HEAL A PERSON WHO WILL NOT HAVE THEIR SALVATION IMPEDED BY IT. AND YOU SAY, WHAT COULD BE WRONG WITH HEALING. SOMETIMES REAL PHYSICAL OR PSYCHOLOGICAL CHALLENGES, THEY HELP US TO GET TO HEAVEN. THEY CERTAINLY HELPED ME TO GET TO HEAVEN. THEY CERTAINLY HELPED ST. PAUL TO GET TO HEAVEN. AND THEY CERTAINLY HELPED A LOT OF THE SAINTS GET TO HEAVEN WHO ALL SAID THAT THEY ARE, THEIR CROSS HELPED THEM TO BE HUMBLE, MORE RELIANT ON JESUS. HELPED THEM TO GIVE US UP FALSE VIEWS OF LIFE, HELPED THEM TO GIVE US SUPERFICIALITY. HELPED THEM TO TURN TO GOD IN EVER GREATER, DEEPER FAITH AND SAW THE MIRACULOUS WAY IN WHICH HE MINISTERED TO THEM DESPITE SUFFERINGS, DIFFICULTIES, CHALLENGES AND THEIR CROSSES. IN OTHER WORDS, JESUS IS NOT GOING TO, ALL CROSSES ARE NOT BAD. MOST CROSSES HAVE SOME REALLY GOOD OPPORTUNITIES ATTACHED TO THEM THAT ARE VERY NECESSARY FOR OUR SALVATION. OR ARE NECESSARY TO HELP OTHERS TO SALVATION. SO, THE FIRST THING IS, YOU WOULD HAVE TO GET TO A POINT WHERE THE CROSS ITSELF IS NOT GOING TO INTERFERE WITH OUR SALVATION OR OUR ABILITY TO HELP OTHERS TO SALVATION OR OTHERS TO SALVATION ITSELF. THE SECOND THING THAT HAS TO, YOU KNOW, BE ACCOUNTED FOR IS THE WHOLE AREA OF HUMAN FREEDOM. AND I'M JUST GOING TO, NOT JUST SIMPLY, YOU KNOW, THE NECESSITY FOR OUR FAITH. BUT IT IS ALSO THE NECESSITY THAT WE, YOU KNOW, HELP THE FAITH OF OTHERS IN THE FREEDOM OF OTHERS AND THAT ARE GETTING A HEALING WILL NOT IMPEDE THAT. THAT OUR GETTING A HEALING. BUT THERE'S ANOTHER ELEMENT BROUGHT OUT AGAIN AND AGAIN. WHAT IF JESUS PERFORMED MIRACLES AT EVERY TURN OF THE CORNER. WHAT IF, YOU KNOW, ANYBODY WHO REALLY SINCERELY ASKED FOR A MIRACLE, JESUS JUST GAVE THAT MIRACLE TO THEM. THERE WOULD BE ABSOLUTELY NO NATURAL LAW THAT YOU COULD DEPEND ON. BECAUSE OF COURSE, ALL HAVE YOU TO DO IS SAY, DEAR JESUS, PLEASE SPEND SUSPEND THE NATURAL LAW RIGHT NOW AND BOOM, CURE WHAT HAPPENED. AND ONCE THE CURE HAPPENS, WHAT KIND OF WORLD WOULD WE BE LIVING IN? WHAT COULD WE ANTICIPATE. THE LAWS OF NATURE WOULD BE CHANGING EVERY SPLIT SECOND FOR EVERY MIRACULOUS NEED WE COULD HAVE. IT WOULD BE LITERALLY A WORLD OF CHAOS! WHERE GOD IS JUST LITERALLY INTERFERING AT ALL TIMES WITH ALL NATURAL LAWS. YOU COULD NEVER BE FREE IN THAT ATMOSPHERE AND NEVER KNOW WHAT WAS GOING TO BEFALL YOU. AND YOU WOULD NEVER KNOW IF THERE WAS A CONSEQUENCE OF ANYTHING BAD THAT YOU WOULD DO OR CONSEQUENCE OF ANYTHING BAD THAT SOMEBODY ELSE WOULD DO BECAUSE IT WOULD BE INSTANTLY CURED. BECAUSE JESUS WOULD DO EVERYTHING RIGHT AT THE MOMENT IT HAPPENED. SO, LITERALLY, YOU ROB PEOPLE OF THE CONSEQUENCE OF THEIR ACTIONS. ROB THEM OF THE KNOWLEDGE OF WHAT HAPPENS IN THE WORLD. AND RIGHT? YOU ROB THE INTERCONNECTION BETWEEN PEOPLE WHERE WE CAN HAVE AN EFFECT ON THEIR CURE. WE CAN TRY TO HELP THEM OUT IN THEIR NEEDS. WE WOULDN'T HAVE ANYTHING LIKE THAT BECAUSE JESUS WOULD RUSH AHEAD AND TAKE CARE OF ALL OF IT. THERE WOULD BE NO NEED FOR YOUR COMPASSION, NO NEED FOR ANY HUMAN COMPASSION BECAUSE JESUS WILL TAKE CARE OF IT AND GIVE THE CURE IMMEDIATELY. WHY IS IT SOME PEOPLE GET CURES? BECAUSE SOME PEOPLE ARE GOING TO BE SIGNS TO THE WORLD. THAT JESUS' POWER, THE POWER OF GOD, THE COMPASSIONATE POWER OF GOD IS ACTIVE. BUT IT'S NOT GOING TO BE IN A WAY THAT WOULD JEOPARDIZE THEIR SALVATION, ABILITY TO HELP FOR THE SALVATION OR THE SALVATION OF OTHERS OR THE FREEDOM OF OTHERS. ALL THOSE THINGS ARE GOING TO REMAIN INTACT, AND NOTHING CAN BE DISTURBED ON THOSE LEVELS. SECONDLY, THAT SIGN HAS TO BE ONE THAT'S SIGNIFICANT, CAN'T HAPPEN ALL THE TIME OTHERWISE HUMAN FREEDOM WOULD BE DESTROYED, OUR KNOWLEDGE WOULD BE DESTROYED AND OUR EFFECTIVENESS IN DOING COMPASSIONATE ACTIONS WOULD BE DESTROYED AND OUR CAPABILITY TO EFFECT SALVATION AND COMPASSION WITHIN THE WORLD WOULD BE DESTROYED. THESE THINGS WHO CHOOSE AND WILL BE ASSIGNED TO OTHERS. >> Doug: VERY GOOD WE'RE GOING TO GIVE YOU A CHANCE TO TAKE A BREATH AND HAVE A GLASS OF WATER. AND WE'RE MOVING ON TO THE PROGRAM, WHAT DID JESUS SAY ABOUT HEAVEN AND HELL. QUITE INTERESTING. YOU ARE GOING TO WANT TO STAY WITH US, WE HAVE MUCH MORE AHEAD. ♪ ♪ >> Doug: THANKS FOR STAYING WITH US. I'M DOUG KECK AND IN THE MIDST OF "FR. SPITZER'S UNIVERSE", WE'RE TALKING ABOUT, WHAT DID JESUS SAY ABOUT HEAVEN AND HELL. WE'LL SEE FROM SCRIPTURE AND WE'RE TURNING FROM OUR EXPERT, FATHER SPITZER OUT FROM CHRIST CATHEDRAL STUDIOS IN ORANGE COUNTY, CALIFORNIA. LET'S TURN ON TO THE NEW TOPIC. WE KIND OF MOVED BAST HEALINGS INTO NOW TALKING ABOUT HEAVEN AND HELL LIKE TWO SIDES OF THE COIN. THEY SAID, FATHER, IN THE BIBLE, IT SEEMS THAT JESUS IS ALWAYS TALKING ABOUT HOW HARD IT IS TO GET TO HEAVEN AND HOW EASY IT IS TO GO TO HELL. MOST OF US SEEM TO BELIEVE WE'LL GO TO HEAVEN AND THIS SEEMS LIKE A STRETCH BASED ON HIS INTERPRETATION OF WHAT OUR LORD SAID. SHOULDN'T WE TELL PEOPLE THAT THEY ARE NOT OBEYING THE LAW LIKE JOHN THE BAPTIST DID. I GUESS THE PERSON IS TRYING TO SAY, THE WAY IT WAS TYPED UP, SHOULDN'T WE TELL PEOPLE, LIKE, THERE USED TO BE A SHOW ON EWTN, BROADEN WHY IS THE WAY AND MANY WALKED THE WAY AND NARROW IS THE GATE. AND SOMETIMES THINK THE PERSON IS SAYING, SOMETIMES YOU FEEL LIKE TODAY, LIKE THE UNDERSTANDING OF A FORM OF UNIVERSAL SALVATION THAT DUE TO GOD'S UNENDING MERCY THAT AT THE END OF THE DAY, THERE MAY BE A HELL BUT NOBODY IS IN IT. >> Father: AND THAT COULD BE A DEFINITELY MISIMPRESSION THAT YOU COULD GET. BUT SINCE WE KIND OF STARTED WITH HELL, LET'S START WITH HELL BEFORE HEAVEN HERE. LET ME JUST GET INTO A LITTLE BIT ABOUT HELL AND THE IDEA OF IT. FIRST THING IS, YOU KNOW, WE WOULDN'T WANT THE LISTENERS TO BE THINKING THAT GOD IS OUT THERE YOU KNOW, BUSY SENDING PEOPLE TO HELL. IF YOU READ THE PASSAGE, BROAD IS THE WAY THAT LEADS THE WAY TO HELL. IF YOU READ THE PASSAGE CAREFULLY, JESUS IS TALK ABOUT OUR CHOOSING HELL. OUR MOVING IN THE DIRECTION THAT IS GOING TO GO TOWARD ECONOMY, NARCISSISM, ANTI-LOVE. AND THE CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH DEFINES HELL AS THE STATE -- THAT'S GOING TO BECOME IMPORTANT IN A MOMENT -- THE STATE OF DEFINITIVE, SELF EXCLUSION, FROM COMMUNION WITH GOD AND THE BLESSED. SO, THE STATE OF DEFINITIVE SELF EXCLUSION FROM COMMUNION WITH GOD IN THE BLESSED. AND WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE DEFINITION OF HELL, WHAT'S GOING ON, THE KEY WORD IS SELF EXCLUSION. SO, WHAT THAT MEANS, YEAH, WE CHOOSE. GOD IS NOT SENDING PEOPLE TO HELL. WE EXCLUDE OURSELVES FROM THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN. AND YOU WONDER, WHO WOULD DO THAT? WHO WOULD CHOOSE NOT TO GO TO HEAVEN. AND WHAT JESUS IS TRYING TO WARN US ABOUT IS THAT WE CAN DO THAT. RIGHT? WE CAN ACTUALLY GET TO THE POINT WHERE WE ARE SO IN LOVE WITH OURSELVES, SO IN LOVE WITH OUR DOMINANCE OVER OTHERS, WORSHIPPING OURSELVES SO DEFINITIVELY, WE CAN GET NOT ONLY JUST EGOCENTRIC BUT VIEWING OURSELVES AS OUR OWN GOD. RIGHT? IN THIS ACT OF WORSHIP, SELF IDOLATRY, SO FAR INTO IT THAT WE BECOME ALMOST ADDICTS OF IT AND WE NEVER WANT TO GIVE IT UP. NOW, HE'S WARNING US, JESUS GIVES WARNING AFTER WARNING. RIGHT? DON'T GO THERE BECAUSE IF YOU GO THERE, AND IF YOU GET ADDICTED BY THIS, IF YOU GET ADDICTED BY TAKING ADVANTAGE OF OTHERS, ADDICTED BY THIS SELF IDOLATRY, ADDICTED BY DOMINATING OTHERS. INTOXICATED, WHEN YOU GET INTO A PLACE WHERE EVERYBODY IS LIKE YOU, ADDICTED BY DOMINATION, ADDICTED BY SELF IDOLATRY, NARCISSISM, IF YOU GET TO THAT PLACE, RECOGNIZE THIS. IT WILL BE A PLACE OF EMPTINESS. LONELINESS. A PLACE OF DARKNESS. A PLACE OF GREAT PSYCHOLOGICAL ANXIETY. GREAT DEAL OF SELF ALIENIATION AND GREAT DEAL OF ALIENATION FROM OTHERS. THE ABSENCE OF LOVE. YOU MAY NOT WANT LOVE, YOU MAY WANT TO REJECT LOVE BUT THE ABSENCE OF LOVE IS GOING TO BE PAINFUL. AND I'M TELLING YOU, THERE WILL BE WAILING AND GRINDING OF TEETH IF YOU GO DOWN THE PATH OF PERDITION. WHY LONG AND WIDE? WELL, WHY IS THE PATH TO PERDITION LONG AND WIDE? BECAUSE THERE'S SO MANY WAYS OF GETTING HOOKED ON THE SEVEN DEADLY SINS IF I MIGHT JUST GET TO THE POINT. SO MANY WAYS OF GETTING HOOKED ON DRUNKENNESS, GLUTTONY. SO MANY WAYS TO GET HOOKED ON LUST. SO MANY WAYS OF GETTING HOOKED ON GREED. SO MANY WAYS OF GETTING HOOKED ON SLOTH. SO MANY WAYS OF GETTING HOOKED ON ANGER. SO MANY WAYS OF GETTING HOOKED ON ENVY. SO MANY WAYS OF GETTING HOOKED ON VANITY, PRIDE, AND POWER. THEY ARE ALL HOOKABLE. AND ONCE THE DEVIL GETS THE HOOK IN, HE TRIES TO DRAG YOU MORE AND MORE IN. NOW, OF COURSE, YOU CAN GET SCARED AND YOU CAN SAY, WAIT A MINUTE. HERE. I'M GETTING INTO THE DARKNESS AND I'M SO FAR INTO THE DARKNESS, I FEEL LONELY, EMPTY, ALIENIATED. HELP ME, LORD. DOUG, THE MINUTE YOU START SAYING, LORD, HELP ME, LIKE PETER DROWNING IN THE SEA OR, JESUS IS GOING TO PULL YOU OUT OF THE WATER. NO DOUBT. HE'S GOING TO START HELPING YOU. BUT THE MOMENT THAT YOU SAY TO MARY, HELP ME MOTHER MARY. HELP ME, ST. MICHAEL, HELP ME LORD JESUS. THE MOMENT YOU START SAYING THIS, YOU ARE GOING TO BE HELPED. BUT YOU MUST REALIZE THAT THESE THINGS ARE VERY ADDICTIVE AND YOU CAN GET INTO THEM VERY DEEPLY. AND POINT IS, YOU CAN GET INTO THE DARKNESS AND WHEN YOU GET INTO IT DEEPER AND DEEPER, YOU GET INTO WORSE AND WORSE THINGS. LAST, WE TALKING ABOUT DRUGS, YOU CAN GET INTO WORSE DRUGS AND PORNOGRAPHY, WORSE PORNOGRAPHY, YOU CAN GET SO GREEDY THAT YOU CAN JUST BE ANNIHILATING PEOPLE RIGHT AND LEFT TO GET, WHAT, ONE MORE BOTTLE OF CHATEAU MARGEAUX AND YOU CAN GET INTO THE POWER THING, BECOMING A HITLER, GETTING INTO VANITY SO MUCH YOU CAN BECOME A KING LEER. DON'T THINK FOR A MOMENT THAT SHAKES PAREN CHARACTERS SHAKESPEAREAN CHARACTERS HAVE DEADLY SINS UNDER THEM. ALL THOSE EXAGGERATED EXPRESSIONS. DON'T THINK YOU ARE INCAPABLE OF IT. IF YOU GET HOOKED AND YOU ARE ON THE ROAD LONG ENOUGH WITHOUT REPENTING OR COMING BACK TO THE SACRAMENTS, WITHOUT PRAYING AGAIN, WITHOUT STARTING TO BATTLE THESE THINGS, I'M TELLING YOU, THE ROAD IS WIDE TO PERDITION AND YOU CAN CHOOSE HELL. BUT YOU SHOULD NOT INTERPRET THAT STATEMENT. SHOULD NOT INTERPRET IT AS ESSENTIALLY GOD IS BASICALLY SENDING PEOPLE CAVALIERLY INTO HELL. HE NEVER DOES THAT. HE'S SO INCREDIBLY SADDENED BY ANYBODY'S CHOICE TO GO INTO THE DARKNESS AND FOLLOW THE DEVIL, RIGHT? BUT FOR ALL INTENSIVE PURPOSES WHAT JESUS IS TRYING TO TELL US IS, HEY, THIS IS RABBI SPEAK, RIGHT? AND RABBI SPEAK FOR, SAYING THE ROAD IS BIG AND WIDE, HE'S SAYING TO YOU, YOU GOT TO BE CAREFUL THESE SEVEN DEADLY SINS. THEY ARE EXCEEDINGLY ADDICTIVE. YOU HAVE TO BE CONSTANTLY AWARE, CONSTANTLY REPENTING AND CONSTANTLY RELYING ON PRAYER AND THE SACRAMENTS. CONSTANTLY TRYING TO BUILD UP THE STOCK OF VIRTUE SO THAT YOU CAN STAY AWAY FROM IT. BUT IF YOU DO THOSE THINGS, YES, THE UNCONDITIONAL LOVE AND MERCY OF GOD IS ALWAYS WITH YOU. WHY? BECAUSE YOU WON'T ALWAYS CHOOSE HELL YOU WILL NEVER WANT TO REJECT LOVE, GOD, AND YOU WILL NEVER GET SO ADDICTED TO THE DARKNESS THAT YOU WOULD LITERALLY REJECT GOD AND THE BELOVEDNESS OF GOD AND THE OTHER BELOVEDS IN THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN. YOU WOULD ALWAYS HAVE YOUR SAINT. I BY NO MEANS HAVE IMPERFECT. I'M IMPERFECT INDEED. BUT I KNOW ONE THING. I'M SANE ENOUGH THROUGH REPENTANCE THAT I DON'T REJECT GOD AND THE BLESSED IN ANY DEFINITIVE WAY AT THE END. I FIGURE I GOT PURGATORY COMING UP AND I NEED PURGATION. BUT I'VE GOT ENOUGH SAINT TO KNOW THAT I WON'T DO THAT. BECAUSE I DO DEPEND ON THE SACRAMENTS. I DO REPENT. I DO PRAY. AND THAT KEEPS THE SAINT LEVEL UP. FOR ALL INTENSIVE PURPOSES, DO I THINK THAT PEOPLE SAY THAT? YOU CAN GET INSANE IN THE DARKNESS, IT'S VERY ADDICTIVE OUT THERE. AND SOME POINT, YOU SAY, I PREFER THIS THAN LOVE ANY WAY. SOME PEOPLE, YOU KNOW, EVEN SOME PEOPLE SAY THEY ARE REPULSED BY LOVE. IMAGINE SAYING THAT? THAT MEANS YOU ARE REPULSED BY GOD. >> Doug: AND THINK OF THE TERM LIKE HARDENING ONES HEART, HAVING A HARDENED HEART AND THEY TALKED ABOUT PHAROAH, AND ET CETERA, IS THAT ALSO A THING THAT A PERSON JUST BECAUSE INURED TO THE LOVE OF GOD OR JUST A FUNCTION OF DESPAIR, SO INSULATED THAT THEY CAN'T BE REACHED? >> Father: WELL, I THINK THERE'S AT LOVE TRUTH TO THAT. IT WOULD HAVE TO BE A DEFINITIVE HARDENING OF THE HEART. PLENTY OF PEOPLE THAT HAVE HARDNESS OF HEART. BUT LIKE SCROOGE, YOU KNOW, THEY CAN BE RESCUED FROM IT. THERE'S CERTAINLY A POSSIBILITY. BUT HOWEVER, THERE ARE LOTS OF PEOPLE WHO MAY NOT, NO ONE KNOWS, EVER GET OUT OF THE HARDNESS OF HEART. HARDNESS OF HEART, YOU ARE RIGHT, THERE'S A DESPAIR ELEMENT IN IT AND SOMETIMES THERE'S AN ELEMENT OF PURE LOVE REPULSES ME. I JUST CAN'T STAND, YOU KNOW, THE IDEA OF DOING GOOD FOR PEOPLE. MY OBJECTIVE IN LIFE IS BASICALLY TO GET AS MUCH AS I CAN, YOU KNOW, FROM AS MANY PEOPLE AS I CAN, COME WHAT MAY IRRESPECTIVE OF WHATEVER ETHICAL NORM IT VIOLATES. I WANT IT TO FOR ME. AND OF COURSE, THERE IS THAT EGOCENTRICITY AND THERE ARE PEOPLE NOT IN LOVE WITH GOD OR OTHERS. THEY ARE IN LOVE WITH POWER AND SOME WHO ARE IN LOVE WITH MONEY. AND THESE THINGS, IF YOU FALL DEEPLY IN LOVE WITH MONEY, POWER, LUST, IN LOVE WITH ALL KINDS OF THINGS THAT ARE THE SEVEN DEADLY SINS WHAT ENDS UP HAPPENING, YOU WIND UP LOVING GOD AND OTHERS LESS IN ORDER TO LOVE THE SEVEN DEADLY SINS. MORE, THEY ALMOST BECOME, THE MONEY THAT SCROOGE IS RUNNING THROUGH IS, YOU KNOW, HIS FINGERS WITH SUCH GREAT DELIGHT. >> IS IT ALSO IN A SENSE LIKE THAT, THAT SOMEBODY IN A SENSE LIKE BECOMING SO DEPRAVED IN A PARTICULAR WAY, WHATEVER THAT MIGHT BE ULTIMATELY IS REPULSED BY THE GOOD? >> Father: OH, YEAH. ABSOLUTELY. THE GOOD REPULSES THEM. AND WE WERE TALKING ABOUT EXORCISMS A COUPLE WEEKS BACK. IF YOU NOTICE THAT IDEA OF A DEMON BEING REPULSED BY WHAT IS HOLY, WHAT IS GOOD, THAT'S VERY, VERY EVIDENT. YOU KNOW, THERE'S ACTUALLY AN ANGER AND A RESENTMENT TOWARD HOLINESS AND THE GOOD. AND AN ATTEMPT TO SAY WHEREVER HOLINESS AND GOODNESS ARE MANIFEST, IT HAS TO BE INAUTHENTIC AND HAS TO BE FOR SOME PURPOSE OTHER THAN BEING GOOD OR BEING HOLY, RIGHT? THIS PERSON, YOU KNOW, IS SOMEBODY WHO ANNOYS ME AND HAS TO BE SHUT DOWN. YEAH, THE REPULSION TOWARD THE GOOD GENERALLY MANIFEST ITSELF TOWARD WHAT IS HOLY OR GOOD AND JUST REPUDIATION OF WHAT IS GOOD OR HOLY. AND ONCE YOU AGAIN TO SENSE THAT'S IN YOU, YOU KNOW, THAT'S THE TIME AS THEY WOULD SAY, TO GET YOUR ACT TOGETHER. IF YOU FEEL LIKE, I'VE FELT THAT WAY. I'VE FELT REPULSED BY GOOD ACTIONS, HOLY ACTIONS, YOU KNOW, BY LOVING ACTIONS, CARING ACTIONS. YOU KNOW, IF MOTHER TERESA IS REALLY REPULSING YOU OR I MEAN, SAINT THERESA OF CALCUTTA IS REPULSING YOU, THAT'S THE TIME TO GET YOUR ACT TOGETHER. YOU ARE IN A DARK ZONE THERE. IF JESUS IS REPULSING YOU, THAT'S THE TIME TO GET YOUR ACT TOGETHER. OR IF YOU ARE JUGS PLAIN NOT SCARED OF THE DARKNESS. -- JUST PLAIN NOT SCARED OF THE DARKNESS. YOU START GOING INTO THE DARKNESS OF POWER AND YOU FIND YOURSELF BEING MORE FASCINATED BY IT THAN STARED SCARED OF THE EMPTINESS, BELIEVE ME WHEN YOU MOVE INTO THE DARKNESS, YOU WILL FEEL EMPTINESS, LONELINESS AIL ENATION NOT ONLY FROM YOURSELF BUT FROM THE TOTALITY. AND IT'S THERE. YOU MAY BE ACCOMPANIED WITH FASCINATION, YOU KNOW, WITH THE GREED, MONEY, LUST OR WHATEVER BUT THE SAME TIME, THE EMPTINESS, ALIENATION OR LONELINESS ARE GOING TO BE ATTENDANT ON THE FEELINGS OF FASCINATION. AND WITH IT. SO, PAY ATTENTION WHEN YOU FEEL THAT EMPTINESS. YOU SHOULD GET SCARED, YOU ARE MOVING AWAY. AND THAT'S THE TIME THAT YOU WANT TO REPENT TO THE LORD OR IF YOU ARE CATHOLIC, I WANT TO GO TO THE SACRAMENT OF RECONCILIATION AND YOU WANT TO GO TO THE HOLY EUCHARIST. YOU WANT TO GET BACK TO THE SACRAMENTS. AND YOU WANT TO, JUST SAY HAIL MARY. YOU KNOW, SAY A DECADE. YOU DON'T HAVE TO TRY TO BECOME MOTHER THERESA OVER NIGHT. I MEAN, YOU GOT TO GET BACK ON THE ROAD. AND YOU HAVE TO DO IT IN A WAY THAT'S GOING TO REATTACH YOU. >> Doug: THAT'S LIKE THE YEAR FOR THE PRODIGAL SON. YOU MAKE THE EFFORT, YOU TURN BACK, TOWARDS HOME, AND OUR LORD COMES OUT TO GREET YOU. WE'RE GOING TO TAKE A BREAK RIGHT NOW. MUCH MORE AHEAD WITH FATHER SPITZER AS WE TALK ABOUT THE WHOLE IDEA OF HEAVEN AND HELL. STAY WITH US. ♪ ♪ >> Doug: WELCOME BACK TO "FR. SPITZER'S UNIVERSE". WE'RE TALKING ABOUT HEAVEN AND HELL WITH FATHER SPITZER. AND ONE OF THE THINGS I NOTICED THAT WE TALKED ABOUT BEFORE, THERE WAS AN ARTICLE ON THE WEB, HEAVEN ISN'T EARNED BUT HELL IS. AND I THOUGHT THAT WAS AN INTERESTING WAY TO THINK ABOUT IT. SOMETIMES CATHOLICS ARE ACCUSED OF WORKS RIGHTEOUSNESS TO GO TO HEAVEN. IT'S NOT EARNED. BUT HELL IS, IN A WAY. WE END UP CHOOSING THAT FOR OURSELVES. HERE'S A QUESTION THAT A LOT OF PEOPLE HAVE OVER THE YEARS. AND THEY SAY, HERE'S THE REAL QUOTE, UNQUOTE BURNING HELL. AND THIS IS FROM MARY. SO, HOW DO WE UNDERSTAND IT WHEN WE THINK OBVIOUSLY A POPULAR IMAGE. WHAT WAS OUR LORD TALKING ABOUT? >> >> Father: YEAH, I THINK WHAT JESUS WAS TALKING ABOUT THERE WAS, THESE ARE IMAGES, RIGHT? AND THESE IMAGES WERE NOT MEANT TO BE TAKEN LITERALLY. FOR EXAMPLE, THE TERM GEHENNA, FREQUENT TERM THAT JESUS USES FOR HELL. GEHENNA REFERS TO THE GARBAGE DUMP OUTSIDE OF JERUSALEM. AND OF COURSE, IT'S A DISGUSTING PLACE. IT'S A PLACE THAT DOES HAVE COALS AND SUCH THAT ARE BURNING. AND IT'S A PAINFUL PLACE, DISGUSTING PLACE, DARK PLACE, RIGHT? SO, HE'S TALKING ABOUT GEHENNA. AND THE WORD HADES IS SOMETIMES USED AS WELL. AND HADES IS A GREEK TRANSLATION OF THE HEBREW SHEOL BASICALLY, THE DOMAIN OF THE UNDERWORLD, DOMAIN OF THE DEAD. ALSO, IT HAS THAT CONNOTATION OF PAIN, EMPTINESS, AND ALIENATION AND LONELINESS. BUT ESSENTIALLY, THE IMAGE OF FLAILS, WAILING AND GRINDING OF TEETH, THESE ARE IMAGES. YOU KNOW, IT'S METAPHORICAL, SYMBOLS THAT POINT BEYOND THEMSELVES TO THE PAIN OF HELL. AND THE PAIN OF HELL IS THE PAIN OF BEING WITHOUT GOD IT'S THE PAIN OF BEING WITHOUT THE LOVE OF GOD, THE COMPANY OF GOD. THE FRIENDSHIP OF OTHERS. REMEMBER, YOU DON'T HAVE FRIENDS IN HELL IN THE TRUE SENSE OF FRIENDS. AND WE'LL TALK ABOUT HEAVEN LATER. IN HEAVEN, YOU DO HAVE TRUE FRIENDS AND YOU SEE PEOPLE AS THEY REALLY ARE. AND IN THE TRUE MYSTERY OF THEIR BEING AND YOU ARE UNITED WITH THEM IN EMPATHY AND IN HELL, THERE'S NO EMPATHY. BASICALLY, WE'VE CHOSEN OURSELVES ABOVE WITH EMPATHY FOR ANY OTHER HUMAN BEING OR SACRIFICE OR THE GOOD FOR ANY OTHER HUMAN BEING. AND OF COURSE, ANYTHING WHICH IS COMMENSURATE WITH GOD AND THE SURRENDER TO GOD SO THERE'S NOTHING THERE. SO, THAT'S A PAIN. AND OF COURSE, THE PAIN IS REALLY ONE OF EMPTINESS, LONELINESS, ALIENATION, GUILT, WASTE AND YOU KNOW, NO COMPANION SHIP, NO LOVE AT ALL, RIGHT? JUST BASICALLY WHAT WE MIGHT CALL RELATIONSHIPS OF CONVENIENCE WHERE WE MIGHT BE ABLE TO TAKE ADVANTAGE OF OTHER PEOPLE. YOU KNOW, IT'S, LIKE, WHO IS AFRAID OF VIRGINIA WOLF, WRIT LARGE DOWN THERE IN THE DOMAIN WHERE EVERYBODY THINKS LIKE THAT. AT THE END OF THE DAY, YOU CAN PRETTY MUCH GET THE POINT THAT WOULDN'T AB HAPPY EXISTENCE. >> AS I RECALL, VIRGINIA WOLF THREW HERSELF IN A RIVER TEND OF HER -- AT THE END OF HER LIFE. SO, SHE HAD HER OWN DESPAIR. >> Father: YES, ABSOLUTELY AND THE WHOLE THING OF ARGUING. >> Doug: WELL, THAT MOVIE WAS ALL ABOUT ARGUING. RICHARD BURTON, ELIZABETH TAYLOR AND GEORGE SEGAL. >> Father: THEY WERE ALL KILLING EACH OTHER. >> Doug: RIGHT. HERE'S ANOTHER QUESTION. OKAY. WHY DIDN'T HE JUST PUT THEM IN HELL AND HAVE THEM LEAVE US ALONE? >> THAT'S WHERE HE'S GOING TO EVENTUALLY PUT HIM. BUT TEMPORARILY HE HAS NOT PUT THEM IN HELL. WHEN SATAN WAS DEFEATED, SATAN CAST DOWN TO EARTH AS THE LISTENER JUST SUGGESTED. AND HERE'S BASICALLY WHY. ALL OF US HERE ARE IN A COSMIC STRUGGLE BETWEEN GOOD AND EVIL. AND THAT COSMIC STRUGGLE INCLUDES NOT JUST HUMAN BEINGS BUT THE COSMIC STRUGGLE INCLUDES ANGELIC BEINGS, WHO ARE GOOD AND FALLEN BEINGS WHO ARE DARK OR EVIL. AND YOU ASK, HOW IS THAT PART OF THE LIFE THAT WE LIFE? WELL, IT'S PART OF IT BECAUSE WE'RE INVOLVED IN THIS TOTAL COSMIC STRUGGLE. CAN THE DEVIL WIN AGAINST YOU IF YOU HAVE FAITH? NO. CAN THE DEVIL TAKE OVER YOUR SOUL EVER? NO. IS THE DEVIL GOING TO HAVE THE LAST WORD OVER JESUS? NO. IF YOU PRAY THOSE PRAYERS THAT WE WERE TALKING ABOUT, IN TWO EPISODES BACK, THE FIRST ONE, ST. MICHAEL PROTECT ME, MOTHER MARY PROTECT ME, LORD JESUS PROTECT ME, LORD JESUS, I PLACE MY TRUST IN YOU. IF YOU ARE PRAYING THOSE PRAYERS, YOU KNOW, IS HE EVER GOING TO WIN AGAINST YOU? NO. THERE'S NOT GOING TO BE ANYTHING LIKE THAT. BUT IS TEMPTATION PART OF THE ECONOMY OF SALVATION, OF THE STRUGGLE BETWEEN GOOD AND EVIL THAT WE ARE IMMERSED IN. YES. TEMPTATION IS PART OF IT. IT'S NOT JUST OUR OWN INTERIOR CHOICES. WE ARE SUBTLE TO TEMPTATION BEYOND THAT. THAT'S PART OF THE STRUGGLE THAT WE HAVE TO CONTEND W. WILL GOD'S MERCY ALWAYS PREVAIL AGAINST ANY SIN THAT WE COMMIT BECAUSE OF TEMPTATION. YES. AND WE DO HAVE TO ASK FOR THAT MERCY AND WE DO HAVE TO TURN TO GOD IN OUR NEED FOR THAT MERCY. AND SINCERELY, RIGHT? REPENT OF IT. SO, I MEAN, YOU KNOW, WE MIGHT HAVE TO DO THAT 10 TIMES A DAY. YOU KNOW, TO DEAL WITH TEMPTATION THAT IS WE SUBMIT TO WHICH ARE MORE THAN THAT SOMETIMES. CERTAINLY IN MY CASE SO THE KEY THING OF COURSE IS, WELL, WHY WOULD GOD HAVE DONE THAT. BECAUSE IN GOD'S OWN WISDOM, THE COSMIC STRUGGLE BETWEEN GOOD AND EVIL, WE AS HUMAN BEINGS HAVE A PART TO PLAY EVEN WITH THE DEFEAT OF DEMONIC ANGELIC DEITIES AND TO BE IN LEAGUE WITH ANGELIC DEITIES SO THAT WE'RE PART OF THE BIGGER STRUGGLE. GOD DIDN'T LIMIT US TO THE LITTLE STRUGGLE. YOU IN YOUR LIFE -- AND I FORGET WHAT THE NAME OF THE QUESTION WAS, BUT IN YOUR LIFE, YOU CAN -- ELLEN. OKAY. ELLEN, YOU CAN ACTUALLY DEFEAT EVIL ON A GRANDER SCALE AND COOPERATE WITH GOOD ON A GRAND ANGELIC SCALE. YOU HAVE BEEN CALLED TO THIS DIGNITY. AND EVERY HUMAN BEING IS CALLED TO THIS DIGNITY. NOT JUST TO THE STRUGGLE ON THE EARTH. BUT TO THE STRUGGLE IN THE HEAVENS AS WELL. AND EPHESIANS 6:12 POINTS THAT OUT. WE ARE NOT JUST STRUGGLING AGAINST FLESH AND BLOOD. GOD HAS ALLOWED US TO BE INVOLVED IN A HEAVENLY STRUGGLE. AND THE HEAVENLY STRUGGLE, WE WILL WIN. AND WE WILL HAVE AN IMPORTANT PART TO PLAY. IN TOLKIEN'S CATHOLIC GENIUS, HE PUTS FROTO, A HOBBIT, A LITTLE CREATURE, NOT EVEN BIG CREATURE LIKE A MAN. BUT AN ALVIN CREATURE, NOT AN ANGELIC CREATURE, RIGHT, BUT THIS LITTLE HOBBIT IS GOING TO THROW THE RING INTO MOUNT DOOM. AND YOU SAY, WELL, THAT'S JUST A FICTION. WELL, ACTUALLY, THAT'S THE PART THAT WE CAN -- JESUS OF COURSE HAS ALREADY DEFEATED EVIL. HE'S THROWN THE RING INTO MOUNT DOOM. BUT YES, WE CAN PLAY AN INCREDIBLY IMPORTANT PART IN THE COSMIC STRUGGLE. IT'S DIGNITY WE'VE BEEN GIVEN IN OUR LIFE AND DIGNITY TO WHICH HE HAS ALLOWED US TO PARTICIPATE. WE HAVE A BIG PART TO PLAY BUT IT CAUSE EXTRA TEMPTATIONS AND STRUGGLES AS YOU IMPLIED. >> THINK ONE OF THE THINGS FOR ELLEN, IF SHE'S FEELING OVERWHELMED, TO TRY TO UNDERSTAND WHAT ARE ALLOWING HER RECEIVE TO BE OVERWHELMED, TOO MUCH MEDIA, CAR NEWS, YOU KNOW THINGS LIKE THAT, TAKE IT TO PRAYER. GO SEE A PRIEST, GO TO EUCHARISTIC ADORATION AND SEE IF THAT HELPS CENTER YOURSELF BETTER AND NOT FEEL SO OVERWHELMED AS MUCH. >> Father: THAT'S RIGHT. AND OF COURSE, REMEMBER THE IMPORTANCE TOO OF THE EUCHARIST AS YOUR PROTECTION AGAINST EVIL. REMEMBER THOSE PRAYERS TO ST. MICHAEL, TO MARY, THE LORD JESUS AND REMEMBER THE POWER OF THE NAME OF JESUS. OBVIOUSLY, THAT CAN MID GAIT THE FEELINGS OF BEING OVERWHELMED AS WELL. >> Doug: NEXT UP. OKAY. FR. SPITZER, DID THE CHRIST DESCEND INTO HELL AS THE CREED SAYS? WHAT DID HE DO THERE? THINK YOU HEAR IT TRANSLATED, INTO DEAD OR TO THE DEAD OR TO HELL. BUT A LOT OF PEOPLE ASK, WHAT WAS JESUS DOING IN HELL. WHY DID HE GO THERE? >> Father: YES, H-MM. DURING BETWEEN THE TIME OF THE CRUCIFIXION AND THE RESURRECTION, WHEN JESUS ALREADY HAD VICTORY OVER THE DEVIL AND VICTORY OVER SIN, HE'S GOING TO LIBERATE ALL OF THE PEOPLE FROM THE DOMAIN OF SHEOL. REMEMBER THE TERM HADES, THAT'S THE GREEK TERM FROM WHICH WE GET THE TERM HELL. AND THAT TERM HADES IS A TRANSLATION OF THE HEBREW SHEOL WHICH IS THE REALM OF THE DEAD. QUITE RIGHT, DOUG. AND THE BASIC TRANSLATION IS THE DESCENT INTO SHEOL, DESCENT INTO THE REALM OF THE DEAD. NOW, WHAT DID THE ISRAELITE PEOPLE BELIEVE ABOUT THE REALM OF THE DEAD. THAT'S THE PLACE WHERE PEOPLE WENT, AFTER THEY WERE DEAD, THEY HAD A SHADOWY EXISTENCE IN THIS KIND OF DOMAIN OF THE UNDERWORLD, RIGHT? IT'S THE NOTION OF HELL THAT WE WERE JUST DESCRIBING A MOMENT AGO IN THE SENSE OF THE DOMAIN WHERE PEOPLE HAVE MADE A DEFINITIVE SELF EXCLUSION FROM COMMUNION WITH GOD AND HIS BELOVED. SO, THE ESSENTIAL DIFFERENCE MERE IS HERE, IT MEANS, JESUS HAD A LOT OF PEOPLE TO LIBERATE FROM THAT SHADOWY EXISTENCE FROM THE REALM OF THE DEAD PRIOR TO HIS COMING AND EVERY SINGLE PERSON WHO COULD BE JUSTIFIED AND MADE RIGHTEOUS BECAUSE THEY TRIED TO FOLLOW THE LORD BY THE DICTATES OF THEIR CONSCIOUS AND THE REVELATION THAT THEY KNEW, YOU KNOW, AS VATICAN II TELLS US, IF THEY HAD THAT PURPOSE IN THEIR LIVES, THEN THE LORD WENT DOWN RIGHT AFTER HIS CRUCIFIXION, LIBERATING EVERY ONE OF THEM FROM THE DOMAIN OF THE DEAD AND BROUGHT THEM INTO HIS HEAVENLY KINGDOM. BUT THEY WERE NOT IN A REALM OF DEFINITIVE SELF EXCLUSION FROM GOD AND A THE BLESSED. THEY WERE JUST IN THE REALM OF THE DEAD. AND THAT'S WHAT THAT MEANS. UNFORTUNATELY, THE WORD HADES IS TRANSLATED INTO HELL. BUT HADES WAS THE TRANSLATION FOR THE TERM SHEOL. BY THE WAY, IN JESUS NINE WORDS IN PSALM 22 THERE, WE SEE THAT IN THE VERY LAST STANZA, YOU KNOW, PSALM 22 THAT JESUS SAYS, HE IS, INTENDS TO LIBERATE THOSE WHO HAVE GONE DOWN INTO THE DUST. AND GOING DOWN INTO THE DUST IS THE DOMAIN OF SHEOL AND OF COURSE, REFERRING TO JESUS' DESCENT INTO SHEOL TO LIBERATE THE JUST DEAD WHOM HE BRINGS INTO HEAVEN. >> Doug: THANK YOU SO MUCH, FATHER. IT'S BEEN SO GREAT BEING WITH YOU THIS WEEK, AS ALWAYS, TALKING ABOUT THE CHURCH AND HEAVEN AND HELL AND WHAT OUR LORD HAD TO SAY ABOUT IT. AND ALSO, IN THE COMING WEEKS, WE LOOK FORWARD TO DOING SOME MORE. ONE OF THE TOPICS WE'RE GOING TO LOOK AT, HAVING TO LOOK AT THE CATHOLIC VOTE, OUR ELECTIONS, HOW OUR CONSCIOUS AND CULTURE OF LIFE, RESPONSIBILITY ALL FITS TOGETHER AS GOOD CITIZENS OF THE WORLD AND CERTAINLY THOSE IN THE UNITED STATES. SO, WE'LL SEE YOU NEXT WEEK, FATHER, AS ALWAYS, A PLEASURE. THAT'S FATHER SPITZER FROM OUR ONE AND ONLY ORANGE COUNTY, CALIFORNIA CATHEDRAL AND STUDIOS. AND HERE'S HIS BOOK WHICH IS AVAILABLE THROUGH ewtnRC.com AND ewtn.com. AND BEFORE WE MENTIONED, WE HAVE FATIMA EVENTS, INTERNATIONAL ROSARY ALL KINDS OF FATIMA EVENTS, CANDLE LIGHT PROCESSION HAPPENING TODAY 4:30PM EASTERN TIME AND LOOK FOR THE HOLY MASS IN HONOR OF OUR LADY OF FATIMA COMING UP THIS THURSDAY EARLY IN THE MORNING, 5:00 AM. AN ENCORE IS AT 12:00 TOO THAT DAY. GREAT EVENTS COMING UP FROM FATIMA AND WE'RE TALKING ABOUT THAT. SO, THANKS FOR JOINING US RIGHT HERE IN "FR. SPITZER'S UNIVERSE". ♪
