A Narcissist's Aggressive And Manipulative Tactics, featuring Jim Brillon

foreign [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] healthy I'm so pleased to be here with you one more time and as you know sometimes I like to bring in guests for interviews and today we're very pleased to have a therapist from the Huntington Beach area in California we have Jim Breon Jim I'm so pleased to have you here with us I want to give you a proper introduction but thank you for being with us here thanks Alex it's my pleasure thank you okay now you're a therapist there in Huntington Beach and you work uh you mentioned to me that you work mostly with individuals but you do some couples work uh with with respect to relationship issues anxiety depression trauma addictions and you know as a fellow therapist like yeah I know exactly what you're talking about and then also you have a presence on Tick Tock Instagram YouTube gymbrion.com b-r-i-l-l-o-n a good French name and so you're you're well represented out there and I've I've seen some of your material and respect what you're doing so thank you so much for being a part of our program here today we're going to be talking with our audience about the topic a narcissist aggressive and manipulative tactics now let me just pause right there Jim when you hear me say that is our title just what just a stream of Consciousness what comes to mind when we think about narcissism uh being prone towards aggression and manipulation at the same time sure well I think you know as far as the aggressive stuff you know we we look at things like narcissistic rage and you know the way you know a narcissistic person can throw temper tantrums and be overtly aggressive but I think most of it is is is passive aggressive in some way or another it's it's emotional manipulation and the problem is that people don't even realize that's what's happening to them you know uh we think we look at things like gaslighting and and projection and all of those different elements of it um and I I think one of the reasons that it's so uh difficult for people to cope with is because it's often invisible because outwardly people outside your you know your home know one person and you know a very different person you know yeah yeah and uh I want to get into that more deeply as we go along um when I when I look at uh the whole topic of narcissism there are multiple ingredients that go into the making of that pattern apply but if I had to pick one thing that would tip me off that says okay we're dealing with somebody with strong narcissistic Tendencies it is in fact their willingness to exploit and manipulate and then when you take all of the other ingredients of narcissism their need for control their lack of empathy their craving to be in the superior position uh they're insensitivities in general they're high defensiveness but what that tells me is these individuals are just sitting ducks for anger and so when you have someone in your office that you're talking with and uh you you begin picking up on the fact that there's something amiss here what things do you watch for that would tip you off that would say I'm dealing with somebody that has some pretty strong narcissistic Tendencies what do you watch for well I've seen that you know with especially in couples you know when you start to see that one person is is always um they're always the victim you know um and in couples work you know I talk about autonomous change you know each person has to agree to change whether the other person does or not and I see a lot of that well well you know they're not doing it so I'm not going to do it and then there's this underlying just kind of seething anger and then when they start then projecting that towards me I'm like oh that's that's what that is you know um it is that it is that anger and then they'll deny that anger um you know kind of twist things so that they they they tell you I don't like the way you just suggested that to me and I'm like all of a sudden I'm finding myself having to defend myself and I'm thinking okay that's that's what we're dealing with yeah in fact I I use almost the exact same terminology you just have that undertow that you call it that that simmering anger that's just sitting in there okay now a common belief that I have is that you can tell a whole lot about an individual's level of emotional healthiness or Not by watching how they manage conflict okay it's in those moments of conflict that you really reveal the the fullness of your uh emotional well-being so when a person is in conflict with a narcissist uh whether it's on the home front or extended family or at work um what might they be able to expect with respect to that narcissist expressions of anger because you've already just mentioned that there could be that rage there can be the passive aggressiveness the gaslighting me well what what might we watch for uh and prepare for knowing that if an if a narcissist is angered this is what we're likely to see what would you say well I think if somebody's if if somebody is uh going to be outwardly aggressive they'll they'll do things like like rage at somebody or make threats to someone and that's a way of intimidating people because when somebody's yelling at you or towering over you you know you're you're most likely going to shrink you're going to be become smaller you're going to become defensive and and I think that's that's the the outward rage um sometimes they'll end up creating drama you know just uh creating some kind of drama to to get you on the defensive so that you're um explaining yourself all the time defending everything that you say and everything that you do um guilt shame name calling kind of those over-the-top reactions that make them feel powerful and then puts you on the defensive and and you're they're basically dumping all of their feelings onto you uh and you're kind of answering this question as you speak but what do you suppose that narcissist is hoping to accomplish by taking that kind of overpowering and uh forceful approach toward another individual what are they wanting to accomplish well I think a lot of times when they when they get to that point maybe their mask has been pulled just a little bit you've kind of seen you know beneath the surface and they don't like that so they're going to turn the tables and you know that there's all of that grandiosity and superiority um and that makes them feel powerful but um you know we have to remember that that deep inside they're you know they're angry but anger's a secondary emotions so there's these primary emotions beneath the anger that they're feeling too and that could be shame it could be embarrassment and you embarrass a narcissist they're gonna they're gonna lash out well and again you're you're talking my language uh uh anger is in fact a Primary Emotion um let's pick up on that chain element that you mentioned okay let's suppose that that you're in a conflict with a narcissist okay you know that's not a shock you know we're not going to agree on everything and so uh you say something and uh that and the narcissist says I don't like the way you're talking to me and you're you're trying to explain yourself that shame factor that the narcissist is sitting on um they're the narcissist is not going to say out loud hey you're making me feel shamed uh instead they're gonna just lash out at you but what is it about that shame that uh that is so informative with respect to the way that they manage their anger what's what's going on really at the at the core of it all yeah well I think shame is a it's a social emotion when you when you feel shame you feel like you don't even belong or you've done something where you don't even fit in but I think specifically with a narcissist they're so um they're so resistant to feeling that that's you know one way I I think of Shame is it's it's um one side of a coin of contempt shame is when you're in the one down position where you're contemptuous of yourself and then a narcissist when they start feeling that they'll flip into the one-up position which is grandiosity and that's a whole lot more comfortable because you know shame is like um you know it it they could be triggered by the fact that for for a moment you know um they've been seen for who they are um people have seen them as a as a manipulator um or just simply flawed or right yeah because because even admitting that you know I'm a limited flawed human being like me like you like everybody they can't do that you know if you and I had a conflict and let's let's just go ahead and assume we're two healthy people okay uh if you and I had a conflict and if you said hey Lester something that I'd like to talk with you about I'm troubled by something if I have a reasonable sense of well-being then I would be able to say well Jim tell me about it and then the same thing and if I might say well there's something that I'd like to discuss that I'd need to get off my chest and you would say the same thing and we would actually have a pretty constructive dialogue and we would actually be able to move on our way in a a healthy way and and learning more about one another and being able to uh to blend better because of our differences narcissists can't do that and you you mentioned that uh there's this uh this contempt that they hold on to uh let me toss out a term to you and see what your reaction to this is uh the way I I'm kind of saying the same thing but I I see that they sit on this um this try rate of self-loathing I hate certain things about myself being known because I can't accept that Within Myself and that's the self-loathing uh do you see that as being very much at the base of the narcissist need to be manipulative and put the emphasis on that other individual well I think that makes a whole lot of sense you know because if I were to admit you know that then then uh I'm not this flawless person that I present myself to be you know um and ultimately uh one way to look at a narcissist or some other high conflict personality is that they're emotionally immature um they they never really matured past that point of healthy narcissism to the point where they realize that oh other people have needs too you know sharing is is is good um you know and then when you're that emotionally immature and you tend to externalize everything um rather than looking internal um you know you have to project all that because it's it's too much to hold on to but I I think that term self-loathing I think is is really informative um I think generally when when any of us get super angry about something we might be seeing something in someone else that we see in ourselves you know oh let's just go ahead and take the word Mike out of it yeah exactly exactly now when the narcissist comes on super strong and they they have that forcefulness that you talk about what kind of response are they looking for that would actually play right into their game well I think getting getting you triggered and getting you in a position where you're having to defend yourself or explain yourself because often they'll they'll they'll uh pepper you with with questions and before you even have a chance to answer they're asking you another one they're always keeping you on an uneven footing so that you're dysregulated there's that emotional contagion that happens so you pick up their emotions um and and if you're dysregulated then they can go gotcha [Laughter] look what I have to deal with yeah yeah look at what I'm up against here now oh and you're so on target with that um yeah and yet if if you were to uh to say wait a minute I I know you're frustrated and you try to calm that narcissist down um typically they're not going to have anything to do with that because it's like you're you're trying to get them out of their game and they're just going to keep it going okay you mentioned um a couple of other terms one was passive aggressive what are some of the passive aggressive ways that narcissists can respond to conflict so I think the the classic passive aggression is the silent treatment you know stonewalling um avoiding people you know because that's that's a way of and you don't have to be a narcissist to to do that but it's a way of punishing the other person you know I'm and it's communicating that whatever you've done is so bad that I'm I'm not even going to talk to you about it um but then I'm worth my time exactly yeah you're not you're not worth it but then that puts puts the other person into this constant ruminating what did I do was it that what you know and you're constantly questioning scanning what did I say what did I do you end up apologizing for something you know it must have been something that I did yeah yeah um but you know the passive aggression um with withdrawing that's a that's a big one withdrawing intimacy or withdrawing affection um and then in in a lot of the the way that they communicate you know um they have every cognitive distortion in the book um they personalize they over generalize they they label um and that you know when you think in terms of passive aggression all of that um uh I think the whole narcissistic abuse cycle is is passive aggression you know the idealizing and then the devaluing the discarding and the hoovering and you know yeah rinse and repeat um and that's that's so much a part of it and then another word that we use and you didn't you didn't use the word this time but you've already mentioned it a little earlier uh the word gaslighting uh they're wanting to keep you in a state of confusion and and if if you try to explain yourself well one of the things that they can just simply do is just kind of play this innocent victim you know how am I supposed to talk with somebody who clearly isn't interested in knowing me uh you're over there being so defensive and they accuse you of everything like you say that they do and uh somehow uh it's never the narcissist's fault uh it and there's there's the not just the blame shifting uh but what do we call it um where you uh you put the blame on the other person that you created in the first place yeah that's pretty like projection yeah exactly doing the doing the things that they're doing and that's a that's a great way to um you know if you're if you're cheating you accuse them of cheating so then they're not looking at you you know um if you you know you cheated at a at a game or in a relationship or in politics you accuse the other person of doing that so then you you shift the argument away from yourself yeah yeah um yeah let's let's contrast that with a healthy form of anger um I don't know that you know what about my history but I've done a lot of Anger Management workshops and things like that and um what I would explain in those workshops he is anger in and of itself is not an inappropriate emotion and so when we asked well if that's the case then what is healthy Anger Management how would you describe that as a contrast to what we've been talking about yeah I I agree I think anger um in the in the right intensity for the appropriate amount of time directed in the right way can actually be very productive you know can help people to get stuff done uh you get ticked off enough you know you're going to make sure that you get that work done you're gonna get that stop light put on the corner or whatever it is um but you know like you mentioned um if you and I had a problem we could talk to each other if we're healthy but people who are unhealthy or emotionally immature if I have a problem with you I'm not going to talk to you about it I'm going to go talk to somebody else about you yeah yeah and uh and of course uh you're never going to come out on the good end of that equation are you right um in in fact uh I just want to get a reaction out of you on this I I would explain to people uh if I were to say hey there's something that's bothering me and this is what it is and notice my tone of voice it's pretty plain flat Bland and just straightforward that's anger and sometimes people say well that doesn't sound like anger and my response is well that's because um unhealthy people have taken that emotion and given it such a rotten reputation that when someone comes along and says well what I'd like to do is I'd like to do it in a proper kind of way I can go ahead and stand up for who I am and in the meantime I don't have to treat you like an ingrate in the process and a lot of individuals don't think of anger and respect as ever being on the same side of the page when in fact actually it can be I mean talk to me about your thoughts on that yeah you know there's there's such a thing as as righteous anger you know when you look at Injustice um you you have to be righteously angry about that in order to to create some momentum to to create change right you know but again you have to you have to own it you have to admit it instead of denying it pretending that I'm not angry um but but I think a lot of us grew up in families where it wasn't okay to be angry um you know maybe you had emotionally immature parents and maybe they did too but you know there's only a limited range of emotions that are acceptable and you don't you don't get to be angry you know so I think a lot of us learn different ways to to suppress it or repress it or put it in a box pretend that we don't have it you know so here you are as an adult trying to engage with another adult and uh if uh one or both of you have not really come to terms with your own Origins and early influences you're carrying all of that unfinished business on the inside and uh yeah and and I'm curious to hear your thoughts on this but as a therapist I often found that it's difficult to work with couples in particular about having healthy anger management if you're just teaching them techniques you know what I mean as opposed to teaching them to to tap into healthy Insight uh and then out of the healthy insights come better behaviors I mean would you have some of the of a similar kind of thought and and uh you know inclination in the same direction in your therapy office yeah I think it's it's I mean techniques communication techniques are are great but they're they're really not enough and um I think helping people learn not to avoid having ruptures because every relationship has ruptures but it's how you repair the rupture that matters you know so I will help people learn how to process you know the the anger and the other feelings without relitigating the argument and get beneath the surface to why was I triggered and and that way you actually teach each other about your family history sometimes you know and you you get to the point where each person can actually own their part of it that's great big huge um and then what can I do so this won't happen again what can we do so this doesn't happen again and um you know getting more to that us Consciousness as opposed to the you versus me and and sometimes with couples both participants can can do that uh more often than not you'll have maybe one that says I'm signing me up and the other says yes sign that person up I want to put it on the other individual I want to ask a couple of questions about some of that beneath the surface thing we've mentioned Shane but another of you mentioned that anger is a secondary emotion um anger is also uh secondary to a person's fears and um when you have somebody that just cannot come to terms of their anger they're constantly blame shifting and accusing but uh They Don't Really tap into what's going on inside of them what fears do would you say is driving that outward anger I think it could be it could be fears of being of being judged or being seen you know as as imperfect or um you know being uh misunderstood you know especially somebody that that grew up where you never your voice was never heard you never got to be an individual you weren't given nurturing experiences and permissions to be you um you know it can be it can be implicit fear you're not even aware of as fear that this is happening to me again you know that's the part where we're so disconnected from our own feelings that we don't even realize that I'm I'm projecting my fear onto this other person but we don't realize that was then this is now kind of a thing yeah it doesn't belong here but I'm bringing it into our now equation yeah that fear of rejection and all the rest so okay so let's suppose you're trying to be as healthy as you know how and that narcissist is projecting all of this shame and fear onto you I guess the question uh is well then how do I not get triggered with my own issues of Shame and fear uh especially when it just kind of uh sneaks up on you pretty quickly you don't have a lot of advance notice how can we prepare our hearts and our minds so that we don't get triggered with our own internal issues of fear and shame that's that's a great question and it's particularly difficult when um you are being kind of gaslit and undermined and uh you're starting to doubt yourself you know and I think we have to do our own work you know and learn how to trust our own reality you know but that's hard when somebody is trying to undermine that the whole time um I think it's learning how to have compassion for yourself so you can actually look at your own flaws your own issues your own fears um and and try to heal those from within um you we need to work on not being triggered but you know our narcissist knows exactly where your all your hot buttons are and you know you can try to move them but then they're going to push even harder and faster to find out where you moved them to yeah you know not that I try to make um conflict resolution and responses just an academic thing uh now having said that one of the things I try to do is I would work with patients and say I want you to tell me what kind of characteristics that you'd like to be most predominant uh within your life and and I'd get them to list them out and everybody says kind of the same stuff well I want to be more patient or understanding and all it's like okay let's come up with a list of about 20. and okay let's keep going respectful or uh you know calm or steady or fair-minded and on and on we go self-restraint and then I wonder then if if you can um rehearse and Advance the circumstances in which you're least inclined to be that person and and sometimes you just go through those kinds of scenarios in advance so that you've got a bit of a mental rehearsal that you can draw upon I mean is that something akin to what you might sometimes do in your therapy office yeah absolutely I think you know um if you if you uh you know if you if you want to be less judgmental you got to work on that you've got to First notice when you are judgmental so you gotta you've got to bring in an element of mindfulness you know where you can actually be be present you know without getting caught up into thoughts and emotions um but it's it's work you know it's it's practice and if we if we you know want to transform the types of person we are you know it's sort of like um it's sort of like the the old Fable of the the two wolves right like there's two wolves fighting inside of me a black one and a white one and I don't know which one's going to win you know and and the answer is the one that you feed you know so if if you feed kindness and compassion and generosity then that is what's going to grow in you but if you feed defensiveness and and anger and hatred and then that's what's going to grow and I that's where you can see the the dynamic that happens between an empath and a narcissist oh now that that word mindfulness sometimes I think it's used so often that we lose sight of what it's all about but it's an extremely rich word um and what it tells me and and I love and I've seen some of your material online and that obviously that's someplace you go uh first it tells me that you slow down you calm down um you remind yourself who I want to be and so we can't get caught up in the rush uh that that argumentative harsh controlling person is wanting to pull us into that's easier said than done though isn't it it is it's it's really really difficult and um you know we talk a lot about setting boundaries and limits for people but narcissists don't respect your boundaries you can you can set them you know and it gets it becomes sort of an art in setting a boundary or a limit with a narcissist you can't you can't say I don't like it when you do that please stop because they'll do that more yeah you know it's it's more like like you know saying something to them like uh you know you're entitled to your distorted view of me and I'm okay with that so you're not calling them out but you're just labeling you know what the the behaviors but yeah trying to not be triggered and and trying to not let that um part of you you don't want to be come out when somebody is purposefully trying to bring that out in you that's that's hard um one of the things that that I explain is when I establish boundaries I'm not going to say that it has nothing to do with that other person because obviously there they are but you see boundaries are not for you they're for me and what I mean is I'm just going to go ahead and Define myself and I'm going to live inside the parameters that I know is part of my healthiness if you'd like to join me that would be really nice and if you don't join me I'm still going to be who I am and that's what I mean and so when we ask the question what what does the narcissist want from you they want you to be triggered just like you said but what if I decide well that's your game it's not my gain I think that and that's that internal strength you were mentioning a few minutes ago yeah and you know I I think at some point you eventually have to make a decision um can I stay in a relationship with this person and be who I need to be or do I need to end the relationship do I need to go no contact or limit my contact and yeah that becomes a very complicated set of decisions that are then even triggered different more difficulty emotions loneliness and separation and and one size fits doesn't fit all does it I mean everybody's situation is a little bit different [Music] you know one of the things that uh uh that I uh have heard people come complain about they may say something like okay I had this manipulator in front of me and Dr C I did everything that I could to uh to be that calm and steady person and it didn't work and what they mean is I couldn't force that other person to be any different right and and so what we're saying here is well the fact it does work with or without that person's cooperation wouldn't it be nice if they would but uh can we kind of summarize and say well a manipulator is just going to be a manipulator an unaware person is going to be unaware but I get to be who I'm going to be separate and distinct and and that's an enormous realization that sometimes people have a hard time putting into play I mean intellectually we can say that but in in practice that's pretty hard yeah to actually feel that because when you're in those types of Dynamics you you literally can't tell where you end and the other person begins you know right especially if you're a highly sensitive person you you pick up other people's energies whether they're projecting them at you or not yeah yeah so uh I guess our message here today is uh know what you're dealing with and know that they have a whole lot of Unfinished Business and Chaos that they're bringing to the equation at the same time know who you are and uh and it's not just okay to be separate and distinct it's necessary yeah and uh I mean that's if we can get more and more people thinking that way uh then I'm hoping that we can at least make a difference with the folks that we encounter right yeah I think that's that's you know ultimately that's the the biggest part of healing is is recognizing that you can be a distinct individual with all of your own needs and and preferences and you don't have to justify that you know um and let it be let let them be who they're going to be you just work on on becoming the best version of you that you can be Our Guest today is uh Jim Breon out of Huntington Beach California Jim it's such a delight to hear from you and and you have such a a calm presence about you I can only imagine that it's a delight for individuals who work with you uh and I'm sure you're a very good healing presence for many people well thank you let's say I I feel the same it's been a pleasure to talk with you and you're doing some good work so keep it up thank you and thank you for being on our broadcast here I wish absolutely nothing but the best for you as you continue okay thanks that's appreciate it okay now if the team healthy for those of you uh who are listening here Jim Breon can be found at gymbrion.com b-r-i-l-l-o-n and I'm sure that he would love to hear from you so uh encourage and support him as you're able to so thanks Jim so much for being a part of of our program team healthy I'll see you next time and I hope that the rest of your week goes well thanks so much thank you

Channel: Surviving Narcissism

Views: 53,889

Keywords: Covert narcissism, gaslighting, passive aggressive, anger, self esteem, NPD, Dr. Les Carter

Id: qp9D80tvjks

Length: 33min 10sec (1990 seconds)

Published: Tue Sep 05 2023