Realities of Life With A Narcissist | Therapy & Theology

hi I'm Lisa Turkish I'm here today with Jim our counselor and therapist in our discussion Jim kress he is here in Charlotte North Carolina has an amazing practice and actually he's the counselor I've worked with so much here in Charlotte and really really appreciate then I also have the resident theologian for our conversation today director of theology with proverbs 31 ministries Joel Moodle male who has I've also worked with but not in a therapeutic sense right just in studying all of these great principles in the Bible so our last therapy and theology conversation was around narcissism what is it where does it come from what does it do when it presents itself and today I want to almost have part to that conversation and talk about what do we do if we are in a relationship with someone who is presenting some narcissistic tendencies but let's back up first Jim and tell the story of where the term narcissism or narcissists even comes from be glad to it comes from really from Greek mythology and there's this guy narcissus who was to give you the shorter version looking into a reflecting pool and saw his image and fell in love with that image so much that he could not do anything but stare at his own self and then eventually died and and who could be around him would be an echo who could only echo what they heard narcissus say so a miserable lonely existence so it could sound exciting at first I get to look at myself in the mirror and the reflecting pool and fall in love with myself but the end is a tragic existentially alone death and in that story what was the echo doing echoing only what he said which ties in to the feed the narcistic feed the empaths who are there often we use a word codependent that they are there to really be in the dance of or the relationship with a narcissist is you better be good at echoing what he is saying or she is saying about him or herself and echoing and feeding back it is a perpetual mirror different than the mirror we talked about in the previous podcast of what a mother and a baby or even a father and a baby needs to mirror back basically worship thou art worthy I worship you at all costs they always seek an echo and Joel you know I'm a spiritual sense this brings up all kinds of things right because if you hear that that you know narcissus needs us to echo back worship our mind can instantly go well is God that right but I think we have a couple of spiritual things that we must remember about God that he is the only one able to handle worship no because he doesn't do it he did he doesn't receive it like a human receives it and he doesn't do with it what a human would do with it right yeah I've heard this quote before that the human heart is not created for fame and I would say you could almost say the human heart is not created for worship in that way so what are your thoughts around that a Gustin a south african Bishop of Hippo he has a famous quote one of my favorite quotes of his he says our hearts were restless until they find their rest in you and so God in His perfection the one of the first accidie does is create he creates creation you know so even the idea of glory and self-glorification it's just an interesting upside-down way of thinking that God would bring glory to himself in the creation his expression of creating all these other things and then he gives the the beauty of humanity of his own likeness and his own image and so I think we have to understand their different categorical ways that we understand each other and God and God is outside of our personal categories you know and so he is perfection he is like the purest form of love that we could ever think of and so if we at times we might be tempted to think well is God narcissistic you know this you have these narcissistic tendencies and it feels not fair well the problem is our actual heart alignments are knocked off kilter you know and so we're trying to define God based off of our faulty definitions and verses seeing well no we need to reset our hearts need a reset and we need to see God imperfection based off of his terms in his categories well and I also think you have to remember God did something that a narcissist will not do mm-hmm and that is that God gave humans the choice to love him or not love him and a narcissist cannot do that yes a narcissist says you must not just love me you must admire me and if you don't I will plan my exit so I never give you the chance to exit and that's the opposite of what God does God says I will give you a choice to love me and if you don't I'll continue to pursue you until your dying breath absolutely so I think that's an important distinction and and why you know that I feel like it's such the ultimate act of humility that God gave humans the choice to love him or to not love him yeah and I think that's an important distinction for sure don't you think - i'ma borrow your words there because I'm gonna use these these are good what you just said God says and he will pursue people till their dying breath and the narcissus says you'll be relationship with me you better pursue me yes till your dying breath yeah you will be cut off yeah just it almost mimics god it's such a disorder of worship around an hour and I almost think to the giving our worship to God and keeping in mind that we are made in God's image to me sometimes I feel like you know it's it's almost to me like lifting up who God is so I can better understand who I am in relation to him like God you are faithful therefore I am safe God you have a plan therefore I don't have to be stuck in fear you know what I mean so God's worship it it it it it we give it to him but it doesn't end with him yeah you know it's it is it comes back on us as the reassurance of because he is there therefore I am you know and even an identity sake you know because God is the one who created me and he he is the one who said I knit you together in your mother's womb God you are the creator and you create good and therefore you know there is good in me that has been created yeah in fact while we're working on the trustworthy study we actually went through the attributes of God you know and one things that I love to do is to actually go through and say okay what are the attributes of God well God is omniscient which means he's all-knowing okay god I can trust you because you're all-knowing I don't have to be all-knowing cuz you're all-knowing God is omnipresent right so he's everywhere at all times well that is a relief because God you're everywhere I don't need to be everywhere you know he's omniscient he's omnipresent he's omnipotent he's all-powerful God because you're all-powerful I don't have to stress out over the reality of my limited power yeah you know and I don't have to try to be so controlling when things feel out of control I can remember who is in control right so let's get to this this thought about just a reminder that narcissistic wounding which is where the presentation of narcissistic tendencies come out it presents his pride but the wounding is actually a deep shame we talked about that in the previous podcast and I encourage you to go back and listen to that one if you haven't and again I want to remind everybody we're not talking about this because we want you to suddenly start diagnosing yourself or diagnosing other people but I do think it's healthy because in its most base form at the very end of the spectrum is selfishness and we all have selfishness because it really is if you if you think about the wounding of it it's this emptiness wound and to some extent we can all be like the person that's holding out a cup saying fill me right and so I think this topic is very interesting to talk about but when when that selfishness is taken to a more extreme presentation you can find yourself in a relationship where someone is making it all about them and at first the relationship feels so thrilling because they're charming and they feel grander then just the basics of life right and so it is a very seductive thing to get pulled into a relationship with someone who has some of these narcissistic tendencies but what you come to eventually realize is you are there to be a supply of endless adoration and period admiration to them well there are no else and one way it is one way and in the two types of nurses that are classically known as covert and overt narcissists and so watch out especially for the covert because the overt Narcis what you've just described is they can be exciting that's certainly not boring seductive and all this can feel good up front people will miss they'll see that nurses coming but they'll mystic over that the more overt narcisstic over one will be but I didn't see that up front they were kind it might be a doctor there with could be a minister could be just someone they're in a relationship with and then suddenly two three kind of conversations or relationship encounters in then it becomes more overt two classic types of narcissism overt and covert the covert often doesn't show up later and it could be like I didn't see this coming and what what what is the presentation of that I said one is that the relationship really you start to understand it really is just one way towards them and is it that they just don't ask very much about you or is it that they when you need them they just don't have very much together keep going you're good yeah right and then part of the field look I call it every Narcis has a boomerang mentality it'll come out through you and so what that feels good but it's always going to meringue right back to them so part of that is will always be that usually the impact experientially or the echo or the narcissistic supply usually experience it they don't have a me the meaning I'm not even aware of Who I am they're having me I've got almost this other centered thing filling myself up because there's a benefit for the feed person the empath or the codependent picker term they get a benefit of being in the dance of road ship with the nurses but the nurses you'll look for science it'll always be about him or her like always even when it feels like it's not just look closely so you want to observed a lot of observing of the nurses it always be about that person narcissist has never met a boundary that they like or will honor so if you begin to say no or not this time watch body language just a twitch or whatever else okay so watch if you don't have in a moment where they might feel that nurses this is a moment might be a simple moment that this is a moment should be all about me and I want to be praised and you don't praise maybe others are and you don't join in or you're by yourself and you don't praise you'll see the action reaction or an ab reaction sometimes we call it away for them and then lastly is inside with that narcissistic person one of the telltale signs is listen for a monologue not a dialogue if they're going on waxing eloquent and going on sometimes run a timer and watch metaphorically or literally they will go on on in a monologue and you sit there go this is a one-way conversation it's not hard I'm telling you the sparks spot someone with narcissistic tendencies they're very much out there if you watch not hard to spot ok so I would imagine some of the listeners right now would be having a response like me like oh my goodness I can instantly work out times I've been selfish in and maybe I've had monologue conversations and you know a narcissist you know what I'm saying Jim you know what a technical is in sports you know I'm throwing the yellow football yeah why you already know the answer you both do will notice the self-awareness Lisa just talked about mi the narcissists are not self-aware a sociopath can be more self-aware more calculated so when you say I'm having the thought and we've already said our disclaimers we're not here to diagnose anyone okay we're not doing therapy as such on these podcasts you went to self-awareness oh my goodness is that me could I be that you've already kind of dear old as a narcissist as a narcissist is never gonna ask that question does it make sense okay I know you know that right yeah how's terrifying Jim you better I feel okay perfect well now that we've got that settled but I think Darius you too because I know if I'm listening to this that's that's starting to emerge in my head so we just had to settle that okay I encouraged him then how does the narcissist or the person with those tendencies become aware of that well you're getting into which I'm not afraid to go to the basic the treatment or the therapy or the discipleship or life coaching of a narcissist and part of that is even in the second research would be something like dealing with cognitive behavioral therapy CBT that's not CBD right so no your letters but it is it is to get them to have some level mirroring back to them I call it what you've asked me before Jim we don't want to feed the narcissist and yet Jim you talked about you do feed the nurses I'm doing that strategically to know you want to shut you want to shut the whole thing down the narcissist confront them so I feed them by giving them affirmations and say I'll ask questions like you're not but if you were a narcissist Joe are you open to a thought see right they get to feel the power that you mean I get to respond they don't want unsolicited advice but I'll compliment them I'll feed them that way part of them to get them on board that they might literally as best you do feel safe with you yeah and be able to open up and say is this how you want to live do you ever feel like the relationships not working if I can get them open I'm not worried about deep characterological change I'm looking for a one degree change that I can build some safety that they'll begin to open up and sometimes if it's just pure strategy - how not live as a narcissist that may be all I get but I'm gonna try at least so one thing to remember and we talked about this on the last show is when dealing with a person with narcissistic tendencies were even narcissistic personality disorder which again is a mental illness that must be diagnosed and and actually a much smaller person of the population would would qualify as about 1% okay so in the situation where we are dealing with lots of different people lots of different personalities I think it's always important to remember that if you start to pick up that someone has an absolute lack of empathy toward you big sign that's a big sign and I think if it is apparent that they are always gonna push you away before you would ever have an opportunity to reject them that's another big something and so let's talk about the work environment maybe somebody's in a work environment and they're like wow I I think I'm in this kind of a situation here's some of the thoughts that you may have if you are working with a narcissist mm-hmm am I crazy am i crazy because at first we talked about how seductive it is to get pulled into a tuition with the narcissist that's right but living there long-term it will start to make you feel crazy why is that Jim because it is quite simply crazy narcissus will treat people this is a classic calling card of a narcissist they'll treat people as an object not as a person so we're not wired to be objectified relationally or in any other way so inside you're there and we're nicer built on some level of interaction well it's a one-sided relationship with the narcissist so it is crazy then if you try to be kind and affirm and you get some brownie points thrown your way or they affirm you because again the echo or the supply gets some they get a little reward there we got to be honest about that in the end we'll realize there is a hole in the narcissist bucket he or she will never be filled up and I certainly can't praise him enough and it will always boomerang to be about this person so I feel like we've gotten some dialogue we really got some interchange we don't it's a monologue in a one-way street I thought it was a bit of a two-way street here did feel like that for a while be aware it will never be a two-way street so it's crazy making because I but I thought I had something here you did but it wasn't what you thought and also in some of the books that I've read part of the reason you start to feel so crazy is because you start to feel like you are the problem they want you to be the problem at some level yeah and at times that that pushing away if they sense that you're gonna question them or if you one-up an idea like I'm thinking in terms of a business meeting no that's another they have to do everything they can to absolutely shut you down so they would think nothing of berating you publicly in a meeting where you walk out and feel absolutely cut down to zero and suddenly they positioned themselves in the meeting as the one who knows how to rescue everyone else from your bad advice Karrie part is all the research or nurses of usually that narcissistic person is unaware that they're doing it in the moment if you think it's all calculated you don't understand narcissism so it's often a sociopath more calculated a narcissist is not aware in the moment in the moment that they're doing these things so whether it's like they're conscious here it is with a hot iron or something else that's the scary part this enhances the fear of it they're not aware they're doing don't steal the glory of the narcissist or in the metaphor of The Wizard of Oz sometimes you're not trying to do it but your Toto you just pull them back the curtain to see and what's the words pain Oh out of the narcissist mouths pay no attention to that man behind the curtain sometimes you I wasn't trying to expose you one-up you in a business meeting I know this wouldn't happen but imagine if that ever happened in a board meeting in a church and you want up a pastor or something that wouldn't happen well it could be who knows but the idea that somebody's just trying to put their their wisdom in or make a statement but the narces feels like this is a threat to my very core well no it's not but they think it is and bad things happen when they feel threatened so what are we supposed to do about it I think it's helpful to give people some scripts and then Joel I want to go to some biblical examples of where we see some of this play out in Scripture and the heart attitude of differentiation between different biblical characters that some display some narcissistic tendencies and other that take maybe a mistake they've made and their response to being confronted or called out and the difference that they do but I've read two interesting books Jim and you recommended both of these one it's interesting you just mentioned Wizard of Oz because there's one book title called the wizard or Wizard of Oz and other narcissists right and these aren't Christian books there but they are very very helpful counseling books the other is a book called the object of my affection is in my reflection no learners book and in that book she gave some great scripts so let me just read this really quickly when you insult me so this is like if you we were in that business meeting that we just talked about so let's say Jim we're just gonna let you play the role of the narcissist now that you are okay so you've now attacked me and now I know I've got to address this with you but I do not want to have a conversation where I'm tapping into your shame because remember that's at the root of the narcissus so I've got to figure out how do I confront without being confrontational and I also have to remember what you said you you need to feed the narcissist and it isn't that you are playing his game it's that you know how to best help him here right outsmart the narcissist a little bit yeah okay so here are some examples Jim when you insulted me during our meeting it made me feel very blindsided I want to learn from you because I've already shut down as a nurse's so you know okay but does this help I want to learn from you well you started with when you insulted me I'm gone okay as a narcissist I've left alright so then I need to start off with Jim when you said blah blah blah are you open to let me tell you what I felt okay so there's the competition they say yes I was very good but what racquel saying in her books she's saying I want to learn from you because you have so much to teach me my request is that you stop calling me names so that I can really listen without becoming distracted if this happens at future meetings I will have to leave the room temporarily but but be assured I will return so that's what we have said so I don't know and I'm not fighting her caliber nor I've met her I like her she's great I think for me that implies a little bit further down the road versus the first time he insulted me but after a while I want all the clients I work with people I work with to get their boundaries clear and say look I'm calling it what is this is about fourth rodeo with this okay when you insulted me there I'm claiming my truth I'm not feeding you anymore bla bla bla and then it's about I'm gonna have my he's on my side and I don't want to pull the narcissistic thing they all want to boomerang to come back to them the narcissist I don't want to be like that I'm gonna shoot what I call shoot straight like an arrow versus a boomerang my error is I'm gonna speak my truth Ephesians 4:15 in love and I'll say when you insulted me when you said this I felt and put up a boundary I think that for me would be down the road initially with a person if you don't know the person we've never spoken your truth then I think that's just going to be game one I'm gonna fight and secondly I would think she's implying there I would make sure that I don't do that in in the public square exactly yeah so we have a friend Lisa who often in our theology study days will raise Brian and I just want to represent for the average person I'm having a role reversal in this environment so so I'm gonna raise my hand that's for the average average person what y'all are just describing feels like so much effort like even thinking to the nuances of how to present this question and where the person is what would you say for the person like me who just feels like it's not worth it this seems too hard I would start can I speak to that for ya I would take your own wisdom and ponder that very question is it worth it I don't have to show up to every drama I'm invited to and to say I want to ponder is it worth it for me to engage in this person once I go down three quick points if I can real quick tell you that educate yourself the Internet is filled with more than you could do in a million years to read and go on with the sign symptoms two types of narcissist some people say there's six types educate yourself about that so get really aware of what to look like look for signs and symptoms be it's simply an observer of the person all of us have that wisdom man I've come from James the person who lacks faith or pretty relaxed wisdom ask God God give me wisdom with this person I want to be discerning and just simply be an observer I see that and don't doubt yourself this is going on notice I feel unsafe here different than your unsafe I'm not feeling safe here said it earlier in the podcast half community call friend and say look this is what's gone not gossiping this is what was said or done I feel unsafe I feel gas lighted by this person can I tell you the person says look I know you I would feel the same thing so you can be an observer and then of course in a healthy way stop feeding the narcissist at that point knowing because there is a PAP and you deal with corporate America and I really believe in churches as well at times in corporate America I've had people in my office myriad of time saying if I draw healthy boundaries with a narcissistic boss even with HR and all that involved I'll probably be fired blacklisted cut off something so I have to be aware your equipment is it worth it some people have had to leave a job saying I'm not fighting that fight anymore and you know I think what you're saying - joel is I can't remember this big long script so let me give you just some simple statement ok that again I'm pulling straight from Raquel but I like that's a very interesting opinion you see you're what you need to do is you you need to in the moment be able to get away from whoever is in the situation so if it's the narcissist attacking you then your job you're gonna have to get away and regulate and this is a narcissist I wanted to lean in when you said I thought oh yes Evan that's a my gyms version you've said the narcissist in a good way there that's an interesting opinion not you dummy but I found myself landing him that is an interesting opinion I mean I need to think about that for a few minutes you know I um I'll get back to you on that yeah or here's another one she said I really want to think about what you're saying okay so that I love that and then another one is why is this so important to you I'd love to know more listen to the nuance of the language may i yes why is this so important fair imagine of different suitable chain music the softer voice almost have huh tell me what is this sound part C is so important - I believe you why is this so important that's that curiosity piece to feed them a little bit so I don't hear anything that sounds like why is this oh why is this so important I believe it is tell me more and then to others like maybe so or hmm could be hmm it was interesting I remember one of my friends her name is Angela Thomas she's an author and a speaker she sometimes when she gets harsh emails from people and I don't know if she's picking up on some kind of narcissistic tendencies anything like that but I loved her response she told me one time she says sometimes I just simply write back you could be right I guess we'll find out in heaven and she just leaves it at that so I know we're running out of time today but really quick Joel two personalities that I think about from the Bible that are such a good distinction to study is Solomon and David mm-hmm and I know when I look at the life of Solomon it started out so promising so amazing so many blessings from God right but there is this real pivotal moment in first kings where it says but Solomon clung to his foreign wives and I think about that in this conversation I'm not saying Solomon was a narcissist but I am saying there's such a distinction between Solomon clung to those wives and sacrifice to their for sacrifice to the foreign gods betraying his own relationship with the Lord after the Lord had blessed him so much and the response of David who was also caught in a not great situation with multiple multiple situations right and including the one with Bathsheba yes and and what he says in Psalm 51 yeah he doesn't blame anyone else he doesn't shame anyone else he did not cling to what he wanted or what he felt like he must have from other humans he simply said god I just stand here read Psalm 51 I think it's any last thoughts as we wrap up today yeah I mean Psalm 51 we can kind of camp out there someone created me a new heart Oh God and we've started this in depth Lisa that Hebrew word for creatives bara which is not a heart renovation like I need you to come in and do a chip and Joanna and do some you know new appeal in here no it is actually I need you to create something brand new in fact this is the exact same war that's used in Genesis when it says that God created the heavens and the earth he created ex nihilo Aladin Ares that means out of nothing and so this is that hope-filled message of where are you on the spectrum of narcissism are you on tendencies is this a disorder where clinical psychologists would say there is no hope well as believers my goodness we have hope and his name is Jesus and Jesus to the power of the Spirit can literally create something that is so brand-new and that heart can be brand new I was just studying on the word in RKO the Greek word which comes from Martin narcissus that's where we get that that word it means to grow numb by applying pressure like narcotic like narcotic very much and it was really interesting the tense of the word to grow numb it's not an instant numbness it's over a period of Thomas I'm hearing the both of you talk I'm thinking my goodness there is opportunity time and time again for healing for restoration for renewal but I thought it was interesting about the pressure that it's by applying pressure what is that pressure and I thought about sometimes when you sit on your foot you know and if you set your foot for too long it gets numb and you don't like all of a sudden then you try to stand up and it's just this weird feeling well what happened your blood circulation actually got cut off from your foot so over a period of time the source the heart that pumps blood was not able to get to that extremity to that foot and I just began to think oh my goodness I think what's happening over a period of time for the person struggling with narcissism is that they are cutting themselves off from the source of life and that person is Jesus and so what we have to do is point them back or in our hearts and their hearts back to the source of living water can I join you on Psalm 51 you back though how does the passage start Narcis will say that typically has vertical have mercy on me oh god that's how that passage starts he starts off with be merciful on me that's humility and I work with hopefully a narcissist can can learn some behavior on say would you try do you feel like are you willing to be willing to be willing to repent or own then so yeah maybe back here I am have mercy on me o God vertical humility love it so the last thing I'll say is we wrap up today is maybe you've been listening and you've been thinking about a significant relationship in your life and you're now concerned that maybe I don't have the theological training to be able to properly navigate this I don't want to think that this person in my life is a narcissist but I don't know what to do about that that's why I want to encourage you definitely like Jim said get educated there are some fantastic books we recommend it to hear on the podcast but also find a trusted Christian counselor to help you navigate that relationship because it is going to be hard for you to navigate it on your own and be honest with yourselves you know I think for me sometimes having a more positive bit in life I always want to believe the best and I think that's a really good quality until it isn't and so sometimes it's really hard for me to believe that what I'm experiencing is as damaging as it is and so here's what I want to say to you it really isn't about diagnosing the person you're in a relationship with as a narcissist that's not what we're trying to do but if you are in a relationship that is abusive that is one way that is taking the best of who you are and beating it down I don't mean physically so much I mean emotionally if you walk away from that person and you think less of yourself every single time it really doesn't matter if they are a narcissist or not you need to get help so who you get help from a trusted friend someone trusted at your church a counselor maybe even a sister or brother but you need to find someone that you trust and you need to be honest about what you're experiencing and tell them you need help so we'll end it there today thank you guys so much be sure to stay in touch with us you can subscribe to the podcast you can like and share that's right we're tell people about this and use this as a resource to start toward the healing whatever feeling it is that you need thank you so much [Music] [Music]

Channel: Proverbs 31 Ministries with Lysa TerKeurst

Views: 205,791

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Length: 36min 24sec (2184 seconds)

Published: Tue Nov 12 2019