TRUTH Behind Essex Boys Murder Case?: Stephen Gillen

the people are staunched to that life they don't get anything don't you went to the robbery game very very quickly you know like the violent stuff can't fit in you know you should different things you know there'd be the drugs thing we'd collect debts do whatever had to be done to get the money back it's an evil life Dodge but not all the people win it are evil you know I knew all the guys Danny was a animal make no bones about that there was only one of him Dodge did you ever come across Charlie Bronson yeah I know Charlie very well do you think he should be released now the high security prison system the only one they don't like they will package you in a way that they can lose you in the system you come across Pat Tate Tony Tucker and Craig Rolf at all there's a lot about that case that I've always played by the rules of that life and believe you me I know a lot but I literally the dog's line mate it's funny it's been going on for 30 odd years now and there's no answer people saying they know they don't know do you know Stephen welcome to the show mate it's nice to be here Dodger it really is with you yeah mate really looking forward to this one um let's roll all the way back where did you grow up and how did you become a one of London's most feared gangsters well we'll get into that like like the low ball Dodge and all this um I was born here in in England in the UK and then as a born baby pretty much six months old I was taken over to Belfast because my family come from now you know my mother but I ended up being left out until I was nine years of age then I come back to to to London after that England London so you know I I uh formative views was there of course it was right in the middle of the of the of the war over there it's crazy because they call it the troubles troubles to me is a fight down at the end of the road not shooting it out every night from the flats and bombs and all the rest of it but you know there you go you know I see a lot of horrendous stuff over there but of course there's a kid it was normal to me because that was my that was my environment I didn't I didn't know anything about the world then my um surrogate mother she died of cancer when I was nine so I was the little boy with the case on the boat go into an alien Place really you know and that was it wow and what was that feeling like being in an island what we're talking what decade are we talking here what year roughly we're talking well I was born in 1971 yeah so you know if you go from there to late 70s yeah early 80s okay early early early 70s going going up to you know uh 280 yeah but that was when it was really hitting it over there it was right in the middle of the of the of the problems over there the war you know and what was it like with going to school there did you have an English accent you go straight out there did you build an Irish accent what was the well when when you're a baby of course you don't have an accident at the six month old Dodge so I was really in that environment and every in every sense of the world I'll tell you what the school's over there you'll be terrified if you didn't have your own work and you was in there on China yeah because you know there was this big uh Christian Brothers they should call them it was this big black flowing you'd be terrifying them yeah they used to line up the whole class if if one person does spoke out a turn and it you know they'd give it to you but this thing called the strap so it was fairly strapped the strap they used to call it was like this big thick piece of piece of um uh leather yeah you know and to get the hands you know and uh but it was very much like that needless to say you know people over there have a very very high figure of learning right you know yeah yeah but for you though I want to go back a bit further because did you have an English accent in an Irish School how was that no I didn't have that you know because I was I was I was taken over there six month old as a baby so I grew up with the Irish accent okay but when I come to New England it was the other way around I had the Irish accent clever and then when you come back to England what was your movements what part did you move to well I come back I started off in West London which you know which withstand Cricket wood just for a little bit because my family was still right and um you know of course I had that action didn't I right you know shawar was different but you know it was to see and I um had a few fights as you do I found it really really hard to kind of settle because our you know although London was a fast place where I'd come from it was really different so I started getting it to travel really really quickly just where but I was really angry Dodge you know this is where the you know that rage and that anger really appeared in me you know and it was kind of downhill from there what was your relationship like with your mum and dad laughs to be honest my dad I wouldn't know him if I passed him in the street Dodge this is a thing I've never met him right so you know that's that one I mean mum it was like cat and dog right one of the things was unfortunately I didn't have that bond with me mum yeah because she wasn't there I had the surrogate mum she'd come back to England you know to make a better life for us but I had no bond with this woman so when I first come over that little bit I didn't know this person so I'd missed out that that that and that was that was tough and what were your movements then going into school sort of like your 14 15 up to 18s ah well I kind of I didn't settle well I was always in trouble from the off Troublesome kid always kind of in trouble but I realized in many ways Dodge it wasn't really about travel it was you know I mean I don't know if they call it ADHD now whatever they call it but my process that's still the same today of course but a lot different you know I was a kid I couldn't sit still so that translated you know with everything together into other stuff and I was always kind of at the front or always the one where the light was kind of you know I had my own uh problems anyway settle in so that's what it was like but very very quickly I um you know I was put into foster homes which was Care Homes some of them very very brutal so that that was another Spiral then I've heard all sorts of stories over the amount of people I've been on who've been in Care Homes what was Care Homes actually like in the 80s they was brutal you know I mean I went to a couple uh one of them you know was the main one I went uh I went into a place in Hertfordshire you know and it was mixed but we were skinny kids you know I talked 13 you know 13 14 right you know you know so there's a couple of brutal staff in there not like sexual stuff but they beat the cranny out of you I mean it's you know they smashed my head off uh you know the walls concrete you know they're dragged yeah you know along the floor you know and these was big men then to us you know it was a proper Liberty I mean I should always try and protect uh you know the kind of younger ones there was a few of us in there who just said something in us like that spirit so we wouldn't have it even then but they shallot me in this spoiler room which was a packing white Libby right so it's kind of a boiler room and a couple of times they left me in there in the night they put me in there locked the door Dodge you know you've been there with a ratch and you know the creepy crawlies I mean this was the kind of thing and how many years were you in the care rooms for fair was kind of I was in there for years because what happened was then we would we'd run away from there right shall we do silly things you know because you'd have no money right with Nick silly cars and do silly things stupid nonsense you know we'd go back to London and then the Nick asked because we was just stupid kids so they'd take this back and they'd go round and round so that was the start of the criminal Journey really which was nonsense right and yeah that was that was the part of it so a few years there in the middle bit but it started to become criminal then because of the because of the charges these are the Early times the first bit right sort of how did how did your criminal sort of Route go then you started nicking cars then what sort did it move on to well we started you know I went back to East London which is which is where I grew up in bethnal green and you know I was really I had to fend for myself as I always kind of had your time really when I come over to this country right that's when it really started you know so the truth is you know when we're young you know we're always susceptible we're looking to be long we're looking for a family right you know we you know we need that kind of thing so I was susceptible to that right and of course I you know I got into the wrong company like gangs and stuff like that because I was a lot like them I'd come from broken homes right you know I had to fend for myself I didn't have that you know emotional intelligence or instruction or clear boundaries or anything like that so it's like birds of a feather you flock together as an old as an old saying you know it was a bit of there but of course you had the older ones as well who was you know a lot more advanced a lot more older you know and you'd be groomed you'd be groomed and Away through as is the progression of this crime going into organized crime because they usually you know they see you in them or they say oh here's one right you know he's a mad kid because I was madder than everyone else I'd always do more than everyone else I was that kind of kid yeah but that was just a protection thing really now looking back but that's that's the way I've done it so of course I stuck out a bit they thought oh yeah someone who who you know has something about him so we can push him more more at the front and all that right so as a kid you're a game oh very game yeah I kind of had to be a Dodge you know kind of had to be and give me some examples as you're going through those sort of 16 17 and 18 19 year old what was going what was good what was happening with you do you know what I really kind of lost the plot where I am now in my life is a completely you know different place but looking back with hindsight I suggest how damaged I was right you know I mean I'm getting silly fights it was one I remember the first time I went away with this guy it was over a stupid thing it said something you know about a Walkman or something back in them days so we got in a fight pass fighting with him you know it was much bigger than me and it was like we're fighting you know like your kids are fighting but I couldn't assume owe him enough so I stabbed him right I mean there's no point in that it's just senseless senseless violence but I was so gone with it that was okay to me because I'd already been dehumanized and and I was you know I was quite damaged already were you did you find that going to the Care Homes you were massively hurt then you didn't have your mum and your dad there look looking back now you know I'm a self-development expert now many moons right 15 52. okay right you know but going back now you know with the knowledge that I have I can see the depth of the damage I have of course it's always in the past and it does so I was really set up for this stuff it's not an excuse I'm not the exclusive guy but there are elements where I was positioned for a lot of stuff that was you know out of my control so I had to deal with it so I was forged for a lot of bad stuff really really early on and just had to get on with it I had to navigate it so bad choice is going and more bad choices going and more bad choices and you're conditioned you know quickly with this kind of stuff so that first fight there did you get banged up for that I I did for that one um but I got banged up before that for another kind of a fight right you know a game fight and I went I went to do Sue when I was uh 14. you know and I'll remember the only thing uh Detention Center so this was a short sharp shot it was like an army camp you go in there everything was on the double it was marching you know all of this game right so you know they're trying to really sort you out right yeah basically this was the thing about it right but you know that was the University of crime the first one the only thing I remember about was I was so bad even then with the court so today postponed the court date until 10 days after my 40th birthday so get me in there so they could you know put me away that was the start of the prison thing you know and what'd you go in there for it was cheap gbh but it weren't like a serious one this is my first thing yeah it was abh but they didn't make it gbh and it was a fight right and then how to progressed then you went on to your next fight having to tear up over a Walkman stabbing someone what did you get for that uh 12 months if I recall for that okay yeah 12 months which was nothing really I mean look you know I remember how old were you when you got 12 months which I must have been can't have been more than 16 okay something like that Dodge I mean I remember because I stabbed him twice right you know I was having a fight with him and I remember you know it wasn't us getting beat it's I couldn't know him enough it's just like crazy so I escalated it you know I stabbed him you know a couple of times yeah I think you know it was a bad thing you know but you know he wasn't on death's door it was no big long knife but it's a very very serious thing right so you know I suppose even even at that age 12 months was quite uh you know the sentence that they give me right you know and did you see that like as a bit of a badger Voda getting banged up around all your peers around you at that age you know it's so sad to say it but absolutely I did at that time it was like you know I'm up and coming I'm going to be more than everyone else you know you don't around with me but you know apart from all of that nonsense you know the translation of it was it was actually nothing to me at that time yeah to do that right do you know what I'm saying and that that was the thing about it and what was it like being that sort of Age game right I'm I'm now got 12 months I'm gonna be in prison for this amount of time or I'm gonna do six months whatever foreign Dodge yeah you know and as much as you think you're doing this stuff on the street or whatever you're involved in going to prison is never a nice experience right you're losing everything but when you hit prison especially as a as a youngster is coming back I remember now I went to um what's it called felchem yeah felchem for that so that was the first taste of Youth custody as they used to call it fought me way all the way through that yeah literally all the way I mean it was stupid stuff like I can remember because there's all gangs in there and it's it'll be eaten right but you know I'd go into the up you know this is the kind of guy I've gone to the up plate you know and I had loads of black friends you know I still do I grew up with him but there'd be gangs of them in there and a few was kind of like you know the tape people's counting all this kind of nonsense you know I wasn't gonna have that was like but I'd go in so you make a stand and you like thing right you know so I'd go through you know I can remember in there an instance I went through I went through the up plate where you get your dinner and the guy behind the up plate had been you know giving me a bit you know kind of testing me to see if it was you know and I remember what are you a lot you know so I just jumped over the up plate started doing him there and then right in front of the screws I mean it's you know seriously right I mean it's Madness but that kind of genome and the Moon that kind of way in and them dose what do you think made you so angry do you know the anger and and the fearlessness thing you know I've done a lot of work in this obviously but I think you know I'm looking back now because the angle was to really drive a really burning Trail for all the really serious stuff was to come later but I think what it was was everything that I valued or anything that I loved or read in my life it was always taken away from me and destroyed you know and I had that from an early life you know from Dave Dot and what I see I realized that life was cheap so I was really programmed with that suspicion with all of that you know you know you have to be careful what you do where you go or you think you know all of this you know and anything can happen at any time so it's about survival so it sees intrinsic really basic human human kind of things that I was always working on so then when you got out there what was your movements how are you earning money what are you doing for a pound note what was where were you living when you come out of Felton yeah I kind of I was kind of on the streets in a way but I won't because I'll be staying you know I was out I was feral I was with the guys I'd be staying here yeah well it is yeah you know it pretty much isn't it you know uh there's a great old saying uh strange faces suitcases and no digs seriously it's like that you know I mean I stay here I stay there you never you know you've been with a birdie or you think you you're only a kid still but you'd be with the guys you know and you'd basically be out turning you around to anything where there was a few quid you know around that time even at 15 16. you know there'd be guns around this thing that was the first it's been there'd be guns around us people with guns around us so it was some serious stuff you know and it went to the went to the robbery game very very quickly you know like the violent stuff because that was a quick hit where the money was but anyway where there was money where you'd move stuff or take that there or go and do that you know or go and uh weigh him in and you know I can't get that money from him or or do this or do that you know all this kind of stuff this was the early stuff right we're not early stuff going up through that so we're talking like mid 80s late 80s now when you started getting into the proper robberies look it kind of there was a little gang of us a little group of us who was just kind of together right you know and a couple of them I'd met when I'd been away funny enough and weird kind of Rue we got together when we come out our paths had crossed so again we were supposed but we was all kind of at the same game really right you know with the same you know the same kind of background so it was look you know it started off you know Banks wages snatchers you know stuff like that you know anywhere where there was a few quid right you know crazy stuff um you know which you know I mean it would go on to all kinds of stuff that was the start of it but then you know you might create in a robbery game because then you're looking you know you get wiser you get you get you get better at it right you know you were the older ones don't forget as well I had a lot of the older ones around me really really early right you know so I had a real expeditious journey in this life you know because I had some of the family that was around me they was like really active serious Target criminals you know Vans post office fans all of that stuff is like 40 50 all that they were already you know and all the people they used to associate so this was this was the upbringing and then the programming and you it's you know this is what we do this this is how life is this is how you conduct yourself this is how you hold yourself this is what you do this is what you don't do so it's like it's something to uh aspire to in a in a in a in a crazy way but that was that was there from from from early on did you have any mentors there you're saying you had people older than you there's a couple you're looking up to go and I want to be like in Monday yeah absolutely absolutely you know I know it was very very close you know I wouldn't mention names right but they was very very close right you know and they was they was you know they was family right you know there was family so you're a lot more susceptible to when you've got your close people family like that and you're seeing that lifestyle you you you you're seeing how you need to conduct yourself and this is how we how we do things what sort of rules were laid on the laid on the plate for you well you know the obvious ones you don't you don't grasp you don't Lolly on you you know on your own you know you don't kind of go outside the circle you don't speak no one's business you don't talk out a turn right you know you hold yourself right you know you don't let anyone take a take a liberty with you or whatever because if you have a bad turnout it goes bad on you it reflects on everyone else so you know you've got to be aware of the family and you know all of that stuff flying the flag right you know those are the those are the main things and obviously like we don't have it with with no one who's not you know be careful who you have it with yeah do you know what I'm saying are you talking about the family what family are you talking about well you know I you know I don't want to go into it too much but I'm talking about my family that I had you know at that time and um you know I was to marry into as well right you know that was part of it right so but there was you know I mean even my brother even me Brothers right later on at that stage where I you know I've got Brothers as well you know my uh mother you know there was a stepfather you know they had Brothers you know I had Brothers writing a sister you know they've all been to prison right you know you know I was arrested with my brother with a gun and light and stuff like that so you know it gives you just just another little picture about the Dynamics of of kind of the close but the uh the outer family and it must have been a lot harder back in the day to get older guns than it is today um late 80s we're still talking here early 90s yeah I mean to us it won't really Dodge to be honest I mean I know what you're saying and it was kind of hard because people will actually come to us like the guns to say like Steve look you know I've got such and such like money I'm looking for a you know it was a lot of drugs guys and the younger ones you know because they was coming up you know and these was quite big in their own these was to become very big but even they couldn't get them but for us you know there was a few people we had a few people you know and it wasn't it wasn't that hard to get them anyway anyone who's well connected and get hold of anything these days and it's the same back then in early 90s and whatever yeah I think it's always like this it's certainly known necessarily you need to know enough anyway but then it's definitely not who you know kind of what you know right yeah yeah and what was your movie you mentioned drugs there did you ever get involved in the drugs game look you know I mean I did this is the thing here with this you know there's no old spot right you know and I don't do the I cut the fluff right you know and I'll go straight to it drugs was around then and we was kind of really big at that time it was the Ecstasy scene I love you Rave scene later yeah the Rave scene and all that stuff cocaine was about then Charlie but it was just kind of a little bit of like powder and it was more soon for the celebrities or people so I had to write a few questions rock stars or the football oh this was the thing I mean we used to get it because it was right in the middle of it right but that was that that was the thing right you know so it was a lot to do with that you know and we was involved uh you know at that time heavily and other stuff because you know they used to call me king of the clubs at that time Dodge seriously you know uh seven days a week I was out I was one of these kind of guys and it was young you know you're having a good time but yeah we was you know we was really involved and all that and all that kind of soon so yeah and back in the day were you carrying were you carrying anything did you ever when you were going around were people after you for anything or were you protected or looking over looking over your shoulder were you ever carrying anything with you truth is pretty much all the time mate to be honest I mean look you know I had a real thing that's in my book the monkey puzzle tree Camden Palais yeah where there was a little you know a little firm there it was a drugs thing we had fell out with them so like you know we had to live in the map we took we took them down somewhere on West London we took all their stuff off them with guns give them a few slaps down there and left them right so you know it was all that kind of stuff shouldn't have done that but you know it was who catches do first and it was Madness right you know it was just at times but you know about two months after that we used to always say because we was doing all that stuff you know a few roads you go out with a phone but of course I'll be out all the time and I'm like you know I mean I really didn't have any fear you know really in them days I didn't dodge you know so I went out Camden Palais I was in there walked into walked into the Champagne Lounge they were all there the whole photo you know and a whole firm of them I've got a bird with me you know and they're like nine-handed all the top boys you know but I fronted it because it you know it seemed me straight away to come up one of them he said ah it's a drink and a movie yeah without a scar down in your boat I went in why would you mug you know I right in front of it but I had a I had a luckily and it saved my life this night I have to say I had a you know a knife damn his shock which I'd put damage front first you know to get through because I remember I got through because Lenny McLean was on the door I knew that I say Lenny was on yeah then he was on the door right so this was the thing but it was a funny one that's right Dodge because I got in right Lenny and all that he knewers so I went to the toilet but I took the knife Factory thing I put it down in shock and lucky I did right because I thought to myself all right you know you've got the Champagne Bar which is all lit up but outside it's sort of dark and the music and the right you know and all that and I was I was a little bit at me not to be honest all the music and all that right but I you know I kind of knew right if I make a move now to come out of here they're gonna make a move right you know and they did right so as I as I went to go out you know it's open playing door there's no doors you know I went to come out one of them's come over the back with a bottle smashed it cleaning my Edge right now you know when you when you see actually suit colors hmm like red and blue like you've taken so I went down with it all that colors thing right proper whack but I just kind of knew Dodge I knew if I go down here of course right so there's something that I took the force of it but when I went down I went straight to me straight to my shop so when I come back up I had a knife there like that so they're all around me and four of them coming in the same music right so we're having it and it's crazy because this blood's dripping down your thing and now there's all these birds that he's up saying ah you know leave him leave him so I'm gonna get away from me because every time they try and come around me you you know these people are trying to come in they're going to finish it yeah so you know this is what happened right so look you know I actually I had to get away from there you know I had to you know I was never going to win that one out front of it with them I didn't think they had to think to take the Liberty but you know we're going to come back right but they did you know it is what it is it's set life so I got off right you know but I went downstairs you know I remember I had to go through all the people down there dancing and all that yeah people are looking at me dodging him what's happened to this guy you know they're like that so I got down there you've got the doors there which are you know the doors which you go out right so I kicked the door and I got out of this little Alleyway down there down the side it took me out you know and I ran down here so of course the alarms are gone off someone's at the doors right so the bands just come around and down there all right so anyone's never seen me they said what's happened to you mate what you think we take it back in I said no no mate I said I'm all right mate I said I just need to get home because I thought I don't want to go around to Lenny now yeah yeah yeah and I was it's going to be made him in there I said no mate I said I'm all right mate I just need to get home so you know I'm going down the road now I'm thinking I don't want to be nicked I can't be seen on the street now while Bill they're going to come straight on me and saying what's the thing with you mate right because blood was streaming out because it's like a little cut out right so anyway I you know I got through here but I found out a friend of mine you know my lot I said look come down here I should have done me right so you know this is just a typical typical you know example in days but you know they come down then they would stand there all right my friends right you know and they bring a lot of tools down there there was flare guns down there there was Guns there was swords there was a whole lot you know we was plotted up over there over the back over there waiting for them my nap was gone right you know I was so so so crazy we were you know I'm going to say what I was going to do but it wasn't going to be good right you know and in the end my pal at me Steve you're not right mate you know we're gonna we're gonna take you to the hospital because you're going to get us all nicked but you know what I'm saying there's just a little example so you know but it was that kind of a thing there was too much of that Dodge really we went on everywhere huh it went on everywhere didn't it Camden Palace amateur whatever clubs it was it that was the times what was your relationship I never met Lenny what was your relationship with learning like Lenny Lenny like me I think because you know I weren't no threat to him they only was a animal make no bones about that right you know he broke my Pal's jaw and you know in three places you know he snapped up a few people around me that was really close friends of mine that was Lenny right you know but I always got on with Lenny right you know and I was like that with the older faces and the older ones with me because I've been brought up like that you know and either way about me to you know get on with people rather than rather than you know be falling out with people I didn't mind other yeah and it means your competitors or how that was going that was fair game but I was kind of brought up within values so you know I weren't no threat like chaleni right you know and I got on well with him and of course he's got his uh you know you had Jamie right you know his boy and all that different stuff you know and I was at the East End as well so you know this always goes well he was a tough man money I've had a lot of my powers and knew him well we're like mate dodgy was another level it was another level yeah I don't yeah you know there's no uh a question about it I don't I don't really know did there was only one of him Dutch how he was then but I was just see him all the way through as well even after when he when he got arrested for that murder and I was with him I had a little stint with him in Brixton where I you know and he wasn't too well then at that point he's trying to keep it from everyone so I you know I've got to know Lenny you know even more then you know where did you go what was your movement say you said on a roll back a bit you said you got caught with a mate with a gun do you remember the first time you did your first bank robbery yeah there was kind of because there was a few right you know and by bank robbery it's a funny kind of because we started doing the banks and the wages snatches and all that stuff really early on in the day it was a bit we used to wait for them to come out and do them which is a bit different than going in there but it's still bank robbery yeah right you know what I'm saying depends how you want to skin a cat yeah so so just for this just for listening out there because they might be younger listeners back in the day everyone was Cash you knew everything's cash you know the wage slips are going to be in there what's your mind thought process when you're going right I know the time is I know on the door there I know who's going to be dropping the money off what was what was the plan well you know the things you would look at look uh when it was to Pavement uh you know across the payment you know they do damning runs so you know you'd never take the first couple anyway it was pretty much 25 Grand you know they wasn't sure to take across the payment you know so you knew that right you know we knew Anyway by the time we get them you know once once you open them boxes you've got a little it's like a little plastic thing in there with a zip you don't need the candy because it's got everything it's got with the money how much it's got in there well there's 17 grand yeah checks whatever right but um there was crazy stories I'll show you one I'll show you one I was in a car with a guy right you know and we took a box right and this guy in a funny way I kid you not he had one eye he was a one eye getaway driver this guy right but he was one of us right so he was he was he just happened to be here come on yeah you know you're gonna do it right your turn you know because it could be trusted in that way right anyway so but um when I jumped in I took the box when I jumped in the car right you know this is a really really built up area I won't say where it was someone somewhere in East London right when we got in there with the with the Box you know all of a sudden the die come out in the car the whole red Dyer the whole car so he's crashed into the into the railings can do it anyway it already crashed into the railings so I'm like disembark right disembo out you know now this was Madness because you know I'm you know I'm uh close to prayers because I can hear that I can hear the sirens everywhere you know and I know what they're like when they come they come you know they're going to close down that vicinity quick you've got a big chance you're going to be nicked down right so it's quite a thing right you know I mean you're racing with that you think in prison going to be Nick it's very serious right you know you can't get 10 years for that right straight away so we kind of split up by the box right but you know I've gone around the back to Flats and all the rest of it you know I've opened up the thing and all that I've got rid of the box I had to I couldn't be running with a box I I had to bust that box quickly right took the took the money out of it which is in the in the little plastic thing never forget it it was it was it was a boiling day right you know I I the police coming Dodge right and I know that I can't stay on the road so I'm going to be Nick this is happening really really fast by the way right they're closing in so there was this bit of grass kind of thing you know when I see a couple of people sunbathing there you know I didn't make a decision so what I'd done after you know I took off my top Blake knew their right because I couldn't have like moved or like ran I've been nicked simple as that right you know they was on it so you know I put the money on the thing the gun and all that put me chop over it and I was there like that oh listen I'm telling you no no I'm telling you right but you know of course I'm like you know I think I'm going to be Nick do you rock all them feelings going through me do you know I mean what's going to happen here with this right but I have to look like a sun baby I have to hold it together there like I'm chilled I'm not chilled mate you know anyway the old people come in but they do that thing I don't know you know they do that thing in London is they'll pull right up and they'll just kind of stop right you don't ever look at you yeah you know like see if you reacts or not you react you're gonna spook you're gonna run like you know what you so he's done that to me a couple of times just come up like that and I was but then they went off okay but anyway you know I you know I kind of got out of that and um you know about 15 minutes 20 minutes late I thought right I've got to get away from here you know I was you know was kind of close in a place where I knew some people right in the flats and all that so you know I made the bolt for it right you know I'm not gonna remember it was still kind of early morning time right you know because I went around my pills uh flat you know on the second floor you know so I go up there I knock on the door it comes out in his dressing ground all right he says I says all right you know I said do you know where I've been right well you know it's just woke up it just goes to show the start realities of of Life Dodge doesn't it you know but I'd put the other bits in there in a little bag right this little bag that I'd picked up this little brown kind of bag you know so I come in anyway and I'm watching him you know so I put the bang on the on on the Little Kitchen pit there yeah I sounded a little flat into this Den so he's making a cup of a cup of coffee he's just serve up a bit of gear yeah all right you know cocaine's do it all what is you know this Christ is his life right so anyways this is a bag he's like oh what's that in there of course he has to have a look don't know and when he looks ah come around here bring that round here I said listen you know where I've been you know I said you're lucky I'm here so of course that was a you know another story what was when was the time when you got banged up and got 17 years what was that for well it's for armed robbery you know we've been what happened Dodge was I'd had three trolls at the Old Bailey so the first one I believe the second one you know we was nicked in the city Liverpool Street round there right but I was looking for a gun because the car drove away which was stopped by the old building and they found you know there was a gun underneath they said oh done a move you know I put it out I've slung it under the car right so we went to went to the Bailey the second time and um was found not guilty conspiracy Rob go with the firearm two and a half years so done a year for that and then they give me home leave right because my son was born in uh Sid all right now so I come out Dodge and outside's crazy right you know I mean it's about you know in the East End at that time I remember always there may have been about 30 maybe 25 armed robbers really really active really hardcore like active we all knew each other well the ones we did we knew below they was we'd all worked together at one point or whatever or you know was going to work together or whatever but there was a an old building it was called Albert Albert Patrick which is really crazy because I've met this guy many many years later he was a commander with a flying Squad but they was just you know it was very very crooked you know and I know that because after I got my 17 they went in there the Ghost Squad they see fit up kits they were shooting people they was planting guns on people so they took apart rig approach rig approach flying Squad these were the times right that's why I say that so he was clearing up you know you know a lot of people people in my family people close to me you know they all they all went 14 10s 12s you know a lot of big cases all different kinds of cases right you know without going into it so this was the this was the environment I come into right straight into it again now I wanted to go back I really did I really aim to go back but on that last day I missed it it just didn't happen you wanted to go back where to prison right okay you know they give me they give me a home Loop right so I'll get the homeless but I have to go back yeah and I really wanted to go back I did right you know I didn't manage to do it I didn't go back that's the end of it I didn't go back so now I'm on the run now you know unlawfully at large the whole the whole thing's changed right so you know it was back to the same thing of like you know you know robbing and all this kind of stuff and dumb you know it was the same thing we was we was just living living at that and you know a lot of the other organized crime stuff I mean there'd be you know all kinds of stuff Dodge you know they can't fit in you know you should know all the guys down who had all the you know they was printing money like it was out of water yeah I'm chilling yeah you know all that game you know a lot of different things you know to be the drugs thing you know there's even you know we've collect debts like we'd go around there with certain people like you know we was up for that we'd go and do whatever relatively done to get the money back um you know all of that kind of stuff you know you know a lot of brute stuff as well would even take money off other people and all that stuff it was it was just you take liberties look were you Taking Liberties look you look back now as a 52 year old you're looking back now roughly how old have you have been then mid-20s early 20s early 20s when you look back do you look back you actually properly took Liberties yeah I mean you do yeah there's no other two yeah you know there's no other way to say you know to dress it up that's the place that we was in right you know and you know there's a lot of stuff you know which wasn't pretty which wasn't nice and I certainly wish I had a you know conducted myself in a you know in another way right you see one of the things that I've learned as well about a lot of people like this organized client people or whatever you know I've been around it's an overall life Dodge but not all the people win it are evil some of them are really really talented but you know we kind of for some reason because of what's gone on usually behind us or what we think is around us we have to go down to the gutter to get our to get our self-respected uh and our honor what we perceived to be to be our honor right which of course is wrong we know that now now we're forwards you know we own businesses of look you know in 20 2019 I was nominated for International Peace Prize for for conflict resolution I've really gone you know the full circle of this to say that so I ever I have a you know I have a real real um understanding of the journey right but yeah looking back yeah that's how it was so what was it so when was it then you actually got banged out for 17 years right right so what happens is like you know we're out they were doing all this stuff I'm unlawfully at large so it's a different kind of game you know you know there's nothing stable about it and you need money right you know you need money when you when you when you run the Run uh Dodge right so you know we was we was looking at a lot of things and on that day you know the old Bill used to come on as an office or all the time now because it can't be on you all the time because of the money they need to find it they need to say why they're going to put a full team when yeah or why they're going to do this or how long it's going to be so you know I was really any anti-surveillance uh conscious yeah and you'd come out your ass you'd feel it in a strange stuff would be happening around you and you'd think you know that's not right you know it's just strange stuff you know it should even be at points I'd say to people they're out there they're watching us it's gonna Something's Gonna go down with these people I'm telling you you know so you know they might say oh you're paranoid I say you know I'd say all right there come out with me for a morning and see what happens yeah I remember saying that to a lot of people I'm telling you after we'd go out you know for an hour people be saying yes too yeah you know what so you were rocking it straight away undercover old Bill people oh yeah okay look we used to able to we used to have the tandy's radios and all that as well so we was into the place frequency yeah so we do stuff yeah you know we'll be we'll be out in surveillance with him you know kind of watching them I mean look you know I'd do a lot of stuff I'll give you one instance you know uh especially on meets with people right you know even I'd you know I'd be very very cage you know I would think for obvious reasons but you know I'll always call people to meet me pretty much right you know I had a few places I used to go one of them there'd be like a tall Fletch there you know so if the meeting was at one I'd be there at 12. yeah you know I'll be up in the flats watching all the roads and everything you know just before just before uh you know when I'd phone him up I'd say look look I'm coming to you mate I'm just I'm stuck in a bit of traffic here yeah where I'm going to be there just watching everything always looking for the Trap always you know that kind of thing right you know because there'd been a lot of a lot of experiences it was like that so this was the kind of game what are you using as well yeah you're getting paranoid using gear and getting power and that's a double whammy yeah Dodge I was at that time but it was you know for me it was kind of the drinking and sometimes it'd be that cocaine thing would come in and then you had the parties with you so you'd be up for some of that and it was party party so you're just being affected by that I mean I've been clean now 17 years I had a drink 17 don't smoke don't do none of that stuff you know so look in battlemented different world of Consciousness now where I am and discipline but I can see the old self and and just our nuts that was right where I was at that time right but on that day it was kind of crazy because I didn't see him you know I didn't see him but you know we had this we had discount in this place where they used to put all the money from all the betting shops and all that stuff you know we've looked at it a few times right you know what I mean you know and they used to collect all the money there right so it was worth looking at right but we looked you know to be honest we've looked at a few things that day right it just so happened you know we fell on that you know and we see an opportunity but they had been honest you know all day for a couple of days knowing that we was you know they'd watch this and see we're getting ready you know teams getting you know together and all this stuff you know I had Cody's from Burma's across the water you know I mean they was well-known well-known family right she's not mean so they know that certain people are getting together in their movements to say right you know this is looking like they're gonna you know they're gonna hit something or move on something right I didn't shame I honestly didn't see him which is I just didn't see him so you know I just kind of you know they said there was you know I was just remembering I'm police right you know they said I fired a couple of shots which was proved in the old bayley Dodge I have to say they went off accidentally right you know and even so I would never want to kill anyone or anything like that for me it was about escaping right but I remember you know when I heard that it just all goes in slow motion and it was dark because this was a Christmas time and it was about four or five o'clock so it was dark right you know I was coming to a Christmas Zoo kind of time that time and I remember running and zigzagging you know I mean I thought I was going to die right I thought that's going to be it right you know and I had to go and I was you know I was getting rid of stuff but I kept a gun and I remember thinking waiting for the shot to come I kept just you know zigzagging down the roads right trying to trying to trying to throw them off a uh firing position right didn't come right didn't come right so you know I've gone into the flats but you know they ended up they've got me there was helicopter said it was like the whole bit and but they actually fitted me up there but you know and this come out in court after because it was the same people in all these flying Squad but they moved all the stuff in my pockets and everything Dodge you know so they took one glove and they put it on the road right round where the shots was fired the other glove they put in my pocket to link me right you know all all the cartridges and all the other stuff you know was everywhere but they put another one in my pocket so they searched me search me search me right this is a serious incident and they searched me again they took me Lehman Street which is the high security police station so search me again and then Fremont Flair when they've done the forensics they found a stocking stocking mask let me bog here three months later so you know it was all do you reckon they were just there to get you to go right we've got a game off the streets he's a pain in the backside I was going to carry on doing it and doing it and doing it if they're setting you up like that it's got to be there's got to be a bigger picture for him look this is part of it guys most of us know that and kind of when you're in Broad and that kind of thing when I remember how it was or that cat and mouse game to them it's fair play if they know you're you know an active armed robber serious out there live firearms you know and it takes a certain different level who's actually going to use them they're robbers and there's robbers there's divisions a lot of robbers right you know what I mean you know they see that obviously as you know a major threat so someone needs to be targeted you know and taken off the board right by any means you know this is this is because there was a time of coming to law didn't it there was robberies happening everywhere around London everywhere every Bank everything going on bookies when there were law come and said right the old bill now can let five onto the robbers something something happened where it slowed all the offerings right down look I have to say the truth for that one Dodge is a couple of my pals was actually killed by him now right one was on home leave you know they they shot him through that they thought he's going for a gun but he weren't he wasn't armed you know they shot him through the through the windscream in the car killed him another friend of mine was shot seven times seven times I lived right another friend of mine was shot in the leg you know they didn't have guns on him yeah this was where the fit up thing was coming because they had this fit up kit which was gone balaclava all this you know they found it in the thing fit up kit so he was calling it you know and I read all the paperwork after and it was crazy does because they were saying you know when when this police officer shot so and so in good faith I thought where can you shoot someone in good faith you know and then they didn't have a gun so of course they had a problem and this is where they was coming in planting planting okay right and it was all in the paperwork and they all got on telling you they didn't get Nick none of them but there was there was kind of four or five of them it was the nucleus who was at it really bent you know I said he was doing a crazy thing they were setting up robberies for God's sake one of their main tricks was you know they had all the grasses he was giving them all the information they was taking big big portions of the money of the reward money right and uh that was their best trick right but the old Bill was taken backhanders of the reward manner well there was rewarding money you know giving out for all this intelligence yeah so of course they knew a lot yeah you know and then the other people they was working together but they was even knocking yeah you know the informant says giving him a lot of pittance and trying to take the big whack out of them that's what I was doing I'm sure what roughly are we talking here we're talking this is um layout is going into the 90s and when did you get banged up I got banged up nine two nine two one yeah going into 92. yeah right and what did you get actually banged up for 91 92 yeah it was possession of firearm position of a firearm with intent to endanger life conspiracy to Rob all right you know there was a couple of couple of counts of that you know and your other charges they put Firearms without a license and all that like stuff that was the and what did when you were in court that day what how many years did they give you I'll remember because we had a trial right and then you know the place was place was filmed dodging it was like it was really really contrived day it was where were you uh the Bailey yeah okay again and it was a big thing because we'd screamed fit up and of course there was a lot of stuff going on with this right and it was crazy because the flying Squad a was taking us to court all trolled up and all that and it was it was just stupid like I said be sitting there laughing you know and they're not really kind of messed up way there was a reflection of us it was a stupid game oh he's like you know I mean my otherwise this is what it was like just just to give a window closes this is as stupid it is right but they was you know really at it as well behind the scenes so there was a lot of people in there but there's some weird of course we said their planted evidence and all this you can imagine what it was but I got 69 years right you know we got 69 years but it was all concurrent you know I don't remember sitting there dodging it was just like um 12 news for this and 11 years for that and so much years for that all I was listening for was the biggest number because I knew that was the one they're going to come off you know and the rest are big concurrent you know so I heard the 14. conspiracy of Rob and then they made the other three was the thing consec so that was the 17. wow what was that feeling like when they said to you right you've got 17 years Stephen I mean it's it's kind of surreal because uh it's so messed up because when I was in that Bailey going through that and it's a it's a tough thing to go through and trial like that right you know with your life you know your life really there writing the balances when I've got it it's like I always knew I was going to get a lump of bird like that or a sentence you know and I remember I looked at it you know I looked at my code there and I remember really kind of there was a bit of a on the thing I mean look you know we both felt it but I remember that and then we walked down you know and I shook his hand you know I said well you know that's it then right you know what I mean you know we'll have to get on with it now you know and that was that was the start of it I remember that you know and what was prison life life is you get into K prisons B what was it what was it like what do they put on you yeah I was I was a cat right you know I was high risk at the start yeah double A so you know I was in I was I was in Brixton in the unit there in the SSU right that's going to be brutal Britain isn't it that was crazy when we were still right yeah I mean it was crazy honest to God um you know you're up on the chop up there yeah and it's you know it's uh a prison room in a prison you know that was the start of it a sterile area when you come out all bomb proof doors and it's you know the start of the cow thing right because they were still building bill marshalling it that that hadn't been built otherwise we would have been there for you know higher risk exceptional risk but then it was it was it was there you know and then you know I got moved from there and I remember you know I they they they put me in Wandsworth because they said that they had intelligence I was trying to smuggle a gun in to Escape right so you know there was a big thing about it even police was called in they interviewed me the whole bit in the prison right but you know they said to him look you know after after I got my you know my sentences look you know the security implications are taking this guy you know to court again over this and the sentence that he's got anyway it doesn't make no sense to pursue this right on what it is or wherever so it was all left right that was the start of it so look you know I mean not to say this this is their intelligence what they was saying you know of course these people are never always right right of course right but when when you have that kind of exposure or your name or whatever comes up in that kind of a way at the start of a sentence and obviously you're marked anyway right so you know I went to Parkhurst and uh next right you know in the Isle of Wight which was one of the best places to be then you know all the all the all the faces was there then all the all the names of today all the proper people right you know all of them anyone that you can think about right you know you're Eddie Richardson actually playing Batman upstairs and I can go on and on and on what about did you ever come across Charlie Bronson yeah I know Charlie very well there's a lot of Batman Me and Charlie in the in the in the thingy right you know I got I got very very very close to Charlie because you know the truth is I've done my sentence quite quite quite quite badly people COPE in a different in a different way Dodge I would never advise people to do it the way I you know done it I mean the truth is look you know I have to say I see them break a lot bigger harder stronger than me mate every day of the week but there was just something in me there was that little bit of me in there that I just wouldn't give it up I think that was my sanity or my self-respect or that a little bit of my personality that was left therefore if I give it up I'm gonna die so I'm gonna fight for it so you know I've done a lot of solitary you know about four years a lot of gang stuff in there still you know I see people killed in there in front of me there's a lot of a lot of violence in there and of course you can't escape from in there you just go round and round and round so you have a booth in there it might go on for 10 years yeah and you keep going around because you're all cat age together you're all you're all in it together but you know you have your really good friends you're really people but of course you have other people you're not so friendly with so just go round and round in this system and um yeah I was you know their class me then as one of the one of the one of the most disruptive prisoners in the in in the system you know and they say all this I mean you know this is just just just labels but they've built were they all close supervision Center in um uh Milton Keynes you know they built that and Marion I'll remember you know I spent 15 million on it or whatever you know it's another prison within a prison it was a crazy gift but when they when they selected Charlie Bronson to go there he was seventh and I was selected you know as number eight to go there after him so you know it just shows you like the times what were you what was how would you explain you as a personality inside prison look you know I you know I knew all the guys right you know and I was there you know you have to remember there's a lot of guys uh dogs even now see them and they talk stuff and this and that but they weren't out right you know they weren't there you know and it's crazy right but you know the thing that I say is well it's really funny about this criminal stuff or crime stuff or the prison stuff what it was or what it you know I'm in a place where you would say to yourself who wants to be any of that stuff anyway yeah that's not a life who wants to be the boss or anything who wants to be living a life like that it doesn't show that you're using the best of your abilities or your talents does it let's be honest so you know I don't glamorize this stuff or anything like that you know I certainly went through it you know I certainly walked a walk all of that stuff all the two sure you know I was released as a Cate as well you know I've done 11 years nine months I was released as a cat eye they had observation on me from the gate that's another story but look my experiences really really easy is that the people are strong to that life they don't get anything Dutch of course they don't you know there are children you know they do everything to break out and wipe your nose in it so take you apart you know there were certain people certain big names or whatever you want to call them you know I was having 10 20 year runs on the street you know how is it possible we know how a lot of it's possible there's a lot of them was in bed with the old bills just a game so you know if that's the kind of life that we're talking about it is what it is it's the same all over the world right but you know the Play Store I'm in is you know people say to me as well they say look Steve was you bad was you mad all of this to I say you know no no no but yeah you know I would have been all of them things at some point of course you have to worry man you won't be accountable for your actions but I just had the courage I had the time in you know idea intervention uh I had the circumstances either the opportunity and the support to find my way back to myself yeah right there's a big difference because that's meaningful change you know this stuff is many many years behind me and it's crazy because I've done so much work Dodge to get away from all of this and you've got the papers there you know they've got me down it's number one this and but the papers do all the same way to sell papers yeah then you've got idiots that say oh dude and I think myself mate you know what you're talking about you know you wasn't even there but the thing that really makes me laugh is look you know you don't even get it yeah because I've never glorified this life and you know I paid my dose you know and 10 other people's I've done everything the hard way right and you know and um I don't say that that life's glamorous you know I say look at me now you know I'm the CEO of my own company I have wonderful people in my life you know wonderful children you know I you know I've got the resilience code where I'm changing people's lives all over the world I'm just about to start a you know a UK tour I do a lot of um you know I do a lot of uh uh Moody stuff I do a lot of other stuff that helps people doing a lot of good stuff a lot of good stuff that's why we're on here today because you're not glorifying at all and what have you my point I want to just go back is a couple of things I picked up on there you got a 17 but you did 11 years and seven months you say uh nine months 11 years 11 years and nine months in cat a yeah and released look I'll tell you what why did you not go down from a cat a to a B to C to do good question look the premise is if you're okay right in there is that you go from a b c d do being open so that's about Rehabilitation so they get you ready you know to go back into society you know I didn't get none of that don't forget what I said how we started they're saying about guns in prisons and all that then segregation and you know then all the fight with the screws and this that and the other you know the associations they said that I had with people and what was going on and you know all the rest of it you see this is a this is a a real management plan of the high security prison system and it's kind of like what they've done to Charlie but in a different way is anyone they don't like or they will package you in a way that they can lose you in the system so your fair game right and they'll really try and destroy you as much as they can there's no Rehabilitation it's about containment security and breaking yeah right so you comply yes this is a real big prison service word compliance right but you couldn't have complied if you if you've got a 17 thinking I'm gonna do eight and a half but you end up doing 11 years nine months how many add-ons did you get how many months extra in the Years except I didn't I didn't get any add-ons because I had to set this anyway right and the thing was was I was this was the thing about it Dodge was I was under the old system right so I can remember when I was meant to go home that day in belmarsh right they've kept me right up the northern circuit for five years just to break me because it'd make it hard I'm right at the other end all these tricks I used to do so they take me down to Belmont so give me an example at Northern circuit well the northern circuit would be Franklin Durham ludes you know I was on that circuit for five years okay just to make it so hard for my family from the south to keep coming up but look you know you know I had some wonderful people around me I have to really respect you know what we've done together at that time you know and they was there for me right you know and it's very important at that time that they was you know what I was going through it's part of the journey right for all of us right but um so they bring me down to Belmont for the last couple of months nice fat classic right you know classy not even you know that had been two weeks I wouldn't have been surprised right but you know they've given me two months right again but I'll tell you what they've done this big contrived kind of kind of to do at the end because I was still a cat thinking oh you know no one wants to release a Cate like this guy right or whatever but because almost under the health system they couldn't do anything about it and I didn't have a license over so far we have to let this guy out there's no monitoring there's no because they've changed the law while I was in there but I was under the old system so they couldn't do anything with me I'll come under the old system so I'll remember in that morning you know they call me up to the office I was meant to go home you know they didn't come let me out they call me up to the office made a big show award-winning performance right you know there was um Governors and Pips and all that you know and it Badcock good cop right Dodge and one of them said we've had a look we've done a scan and they said it's what they said right we've done a scan of all the prison sentences as we do you know don't forget I've done 11 years right for them to do a scan right you know not a month and three months ago we've done a scan and we've noticed that you didn't pay a fine I don't know whenever it was years ago so you actually have another 60 days to do oh that was a game right so anyway when who says this is another one there says I'm not having this this man has done his sentence I'm going to go to dot one you know in the home office short they're playing with me here didn't they right they're trying to they're trying to keep me keep me thinking right keep me down right so I thought no way I fought these people and they're right at the end they've done they've done the last kick in the ribs right I thought it might come right so they put me in the you know they put me back but they kept me there all day and then they come back at four o'clock and so we've sorted it out get your kit everything's done you're going home so they let me out of with the courts when the courts was going on but I found out later dodged that the reason what they've done that was because I was waiting for the observation for the surveillance outside to be ready and it wasn't ready in the morning you know when I found out because uh one of my one of my friends in there Chrissy Chrissy peerman one of the screws said to him after I'd gone out they said here you know you know your pal Stevie Gillard you know when yeah he said they had all old Bill I'm out there for him the other day when he went so come after me and I remember when I went out and I was picked up you know and I went back you know I felt them same crazy feelings again following again okay I thought no way you know what all that period of my life was gone you know it was like going out one door into another but I found out that because I wasn't because I was still okay because I wasn't on a license and they had no they wanted to know where I was going and they'd heard I was going to fly out of the country yeah so that was the thing they wanted you know they wanted to know where I was at and where I was going and all that so Charlie brunson's been banged up for 50 years do you think he should be released now it should Dodge absolute look is Charlie Bronson the most dangerous prisoner in the system of course he's not I've seen little skinny guys like that really damaged they run up behind you stab you in the back and run you know in the neck and run how dangerous is that it's not more dangerous than what Charlie is I'm telling you there's a lot of dangerous people in the system right you know and you learn in them kind of environments size all this thing you know has nothing to do with it right you know there are different forces at play right Charlie has positioned himself he's an ample of course in all the rest of it but he's 17 now right you know and he's still in the cages he's still a cat a I went through all of that stuff so you know I can speak from expert experience right the guy's been given no charge no no chance or you know Rehabilitation or anything it's their trick and they've railroaded him right down the line so you know uh it doesn't say a lot for justice though Dodge yeah this is the problem I'm not even talking about Charlie right you know you know and I've been on a lot of big platforms and they'll ask me about this you know and I say look you know there's a lot of other things that play here because if you're gonna say we're the law and you have to pay for a crime in the judicial system that what you've done then the other side of that is that when you go back into like Society you need a fair chance and so does society when you're re-entering it she's kind of having a cake and not eat it you know but this is what this is this is what they're doing so it's double standards and it gives that a really really bad really bad message do you think that if he got let out he'd become a hero and then and then the government and the police and everyone wouldn't want to see that look that's part of it obviously is you know he's got this kind of media brand and all this stuff that they're branded in with so it'd be like this performer absolutely of course they've done one there but look you know if you take all that stuff away right the hype they haven't give Charlie a chance the opportunity I think it should engage I think it should be loud he's 70 years old dude I mean he just wants that last bit of Freedom he ain't gonna go and do anything stupid now if anything it probably probably be nice and calm and relax because he's enjoying the freedom but there's a massive argument both sides isn't there look the other part I'll say on child because it's worth mentioning this about Charlie Wright just to just to cut the fluff in it everyone talks all the bad stuff and they're great at throwing stones aren't they that's right but not none of them are really a decision to even know what they're talking about it does a lot for charity you know 70 70 years of age even in all them psychologists are saying that at that age all the risk diminishes totally at that age so if you want to you know go by their standard as well or he's got that does a lot for charity he's a really good artist he wouldn't have to get himself in any more trouble would he yeah you know but you're right to get by with a few pounds right might be a bit of a media circus for a while but that's going to change as well calm down off yeah calm down after a while wouldn't it you know I think I think they should release him I do too yeah I do what's your what are your thoughts what have you had any if you come across Pat Tate Tony Tucker and Craig wolf at all I knew I knew Pat quite well I knew chucker right I renew I even knew Jasper right Jasper's the one who kind of uh Billy Jasper is coming after right who was you know it kind of you know you had the people who come in he was saying that it didn't you know happen with that grass or cross them all up Mickey steal and all the rest of it you know it happened a different way I knew Jess but Jasper was around in the old days with us I mean he was shot in the night and everything uh Jasper Billy Jasper in the old days you know the last time I see him I was in brixture moving uh Billy Jasper but you know there's a lot about that case you know I mean I was on uh Essex murders like the sky you know the Sky series you won that documentary I am yeah yeah yeah there's a lot about that case you know which hasn't been told and can't really be told in a way because there's some people involved in it who have passed now who was involved in other ways but who was kind of really put up for being for being involved in that but look at the end of the day right Dodge I'm not going to go into it but look I've always played by the rules of that life and balloon viewing me I know a lot obviously out of a lot but I let sleeping dogs line mate yeah of course I will and it's not my business anyway I'll let sleeping dogs lie right I've always talked about myself or much or what we're doing or where it's been appropriate and I'm new to you know I didn't do all them news what I'd done to suffer like that to be something that I'm not right so it is what it is right you know it is what it is there's a lot of people for and against but you know I knew all their people involved in it it's funny and it's been going on for 30 odd years now and there's no answer full-on answer people saying they know they don't know do you know what I can say is that you know as I said you know I know a lot of stuff and we hear a lot of stuff most of this stuff I have to say is bang on the button right within the circles that I was some of it's not of course it's a bit wind addressed or a bit spun so that's what I can say are there any names that spring to mind in the prison system over the years you've gone he's one of the hardest and toughest men I've ever come across there's been a few there's been a yeah there's been a few there's been a few you know there's different kinds of toughness Dodge and there's different kinds of kinds of hardness you know as you know physical toughness absolutely Mariah janara Moon you know that game list that Claridge that Warrior thing absolutely um but you know I've learned right you know especially look you know there's two kinds of violent violent people generally you know in this you know concerns a lot of the real you know the real hard people that I've ever met they don't necessarily like violence they see it as a tool but they'll use it if they have to or definitely if they're cornered right that goes for a good 80 plus percent of people but then you have a smaller bit that are not too well in a sense and they Thrive off it you know they get a buzz off it it's like a drug so that's the two different kinds of like violent people how they you how they use violence but you know I mean I ca I come from the former it was a tool didn't really like violence but our Jews here you know and our Jews whatever level of violence at a certain time I felt I needed to you know a lot of it was a bad protection or survival you know pretty much right but you know I've learned I've learned in in later years certainly you know where I am now that of the four strengths mental emotional spiritual physical is the lowest one yeah when you're really there you know as a human being or I you know where you can create wonderful things move wonderful things I'm talking about big things in the world then it's emotional mental and certainly spiritual absolutely which are the keys to the real depth of courage and toughness resilience uh so you did 11 years nine months in the cafe which I couldn't think of anything worse personally stage but you you've done it you've moved on in life you're a different person you are today tell me what your world looks like today because I'm seeing you everywhere I've seen you in books and see you in movies and seeing documentaries and seeing your own business live shows tell me exactly what you're up to yeah I mean I can remember first thing I go back a little bit just to just you know so people can get an idea of of the real kind of changing in the moment I can remember two years before I come out of the of the big sense I was still in it right and um I uh Millennium Knight I'll remember when everyone was out you know it's big Millennium night right you can only imagine everyone having a good time I can remember I made a you know decision I was on my news in that dark shell as it went into the Millennium you know and I you know I shed my little prayer right you know to the higher powered a big man whatever you want to call it up there and I said look you know I realized I had to you know I was destroying myself I had to sort it out right you know and I wanted to change everything and it was going to change and that was going to be it and I was going to go out there and I was going to be the best that I can be I remember doing that because it was a moment of course I would never you know thought I'd be anywhere near doing but you know I always say dodge uh to people life doesn't give us what we want it gives us what we become and it really does right you know so it doesn't matter that we fall down a bit or we have a hard time or we make some bad choices you know we are uh Limitless possibilities as human beings and we can change it in a moment we really can in the field you know how do we want to do that what do we want to set up the next hour and the next day the next week the next that was you know come out it was a big start of a journey for me so you know I went out of course I you know I transformed my life right you know I started by nothing you know I had to change everything you know you know I see someone I'll remember right you know and they said to me you know it was like a kind of early early Mentor he said Steve you only need to change one thing I said to him what's that he said everything he said everything I'd never forget it so clever I mean I you know I'd intellectual understanding of what of you know what he meant in Dodge but I didn't get it in the deeper levels where I needed to now of course I do of course he was right but that was that was the journey so now I you know I um I've got my own company uh co-founder of raw media creative Studios we build a lot of global global Brands here we're also very big in film TV book to film you know all that stuff we're International you know privileged to work with some amazing people you know around the world very very creative because we were very hard at that we continue to work very very hard of that part of it of course is is getting the right people into my life but you do that when you change from the inside out it's an inside job right you know and you have to keep going and um so you know I've I've you know I've had a few businesses we build businesses I've done a lot of the stuff that I didn't do in my younger days you know I got a business degree you know I finished third at you know the top of the you know the people who was doing that you know you know I went there because I always thought well you know if life had been different you know I wanted to check if I was thick or not yeah because I wasn't I was all right done really well right seriously it's really as easy as that especially if you've got a degree of course well yeah yeah you know all this stuff was about getting the good stuff into my Dodge getting the health into me and moving the darkness you know I use work as a a massive tool like to focus on you know of course I've been you know I've been clean now many years all these years as well so um you know I've done a lot of good work to save a lot of lives there as well uh some exclusive stuff I've just got a two uh two book deal so the monkey puzzle tree which you know was option to be a film of course in La they're actually making that into into a Trilogy now but with the writer strike over there you know in L.A we work a lot with them there's also you know it's a big project and it's you know we've had covered we've had all kinds of things but we're there with that right and um so there's a you know a book deal now that's you know that's coming so that's going to be you know released as a second edition now with you know I'm going to write a bit more in the monkey puzzle tree because most happened and then I've got another book which is coming out which is called the nine steps of transformation which I'm you know I'm really really proud of I have to say because you know I've been forged for this dodge and it's a book in the same kind of Vanoss 48 Laws of Power Robert Crane powerful this kind of because it took me a long time to get to be the person with the expertise and the skill set and the right time where I can do that Justice right but you know we're there now with that and um yeah um I'm just about to start uh UK tour now yeah so you know um that's really good it's called Uh Stephen Gillen ready to talk you know we've got a wonderful promoter there uh star goes entertainment you know of course they've done a lot of people they've done Michael Francis was part of that tour and he's just done it a lot of other celebrities there David I can go on and on and on with the kind of nose in there that we but you know they're wonderful guys as well so the first um first event is September 2nd Kingston Kingston uh London yeah um tickets are selling fast for that they really are but that's about giving a lot of value right you know we've got something really really you know we've got a wonderful model there now for you know for people where we can engage with them so there's all the there's all the notorious stuff there's all the dark stuff they want there but there's a real a lot of the gems and the transformational stuff there as well you know good for you Stephen I've really really enjoyed this I really thank you for your honesty oh thank you and there's a lot of stories in there and we'll probably end up doing a part two at some point well look don't you arrive you know I've always loved what you do you know you acquire quiet guy yourself you know it's wonderful to be invited down to your you know your wonderful place here and it's one of the reasons I wanted to come and do this because there's no fluff we're straight down to it me and you up and down we can sit down two guys you know have a good have a good chat about things and uh no hidden Corners so it's been a pleasure thank you you're a gentleman good man Steve good man good luck to you foreign [Music]

Channel: Dodge Woodall

Views: 161,578

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Id: zEKFpvYCFrU

Length: 83min 17sec (4997 seconds)

Published: Wed Aug 30 2023