- [Announcer] Middle Ground
is a social experiment that brings humans with
opposing beliefs together. These discussions may contain viewpoints that are the result of misinformation. Remember to seek out
experts and to be critical of your own biases while
forming an opinion. Please see the humanity
in each participant and as always, we encourage empathy. - So when you say we're just
redefining what being a man is, you have to understand you're
redefining a fabric in society that has kept the human race and got it to where it is today. - But do you see the
state of our world today? It's not perfect. And it's been led by men
throughout all of history and look where it's gone. (mellow music) - [Announcer] Step forward
if you agree with the prompt. "Masculinity is disappearing in America." - I think that masculinity
is disappearing. I think that it's a concerted effort, to emasculate men, I think that some people feel
threatened by masculinity and the typical way that
men carry themselves, leading families and
different things like that. So I think that there's a effort to mitigate strong men in America. - There's a few different ways
to think about masculinity. But just looking at the definition
of the term 50 years ago. You had people like John Wayne, you had Martin Luther
King, you had Sean Connery. You think of like masculine
features as in beards, hairy chest, big muscles
think stoic, being brave, being rugged, being a provider. Today you have people like Harry Styles and Timothée Chalamet. You have people that
are completely contrary to what we were looking at back then and those values of those
masculine characteristics are completely devalued. - I do believe that
masculinity is going downhill, especially if you look at
like the testosterone levels. Now the testosterone levels
for guys is going down, compared to generations before us. So, yeah, I agree. (whoosh air) - Hi, I'm Gilbert. I'm 24 years old and
I'm a conservative man. With my beliefs and having
a trans man as my friend. We don't really talk about politics. Someone being trans doesn't make me like them any less of a person. As far as pronouns, when
referring to my friend, I don't really use the pronouns
that my friend would want. I just say my friend or I say their name, just because I feel like I'm
giving into the narrative that men can be women and women can be men if I use the pronouns that they want. - I do see that masculinity
is under attack completely. But my definition of
masculinity, like you said, has a lot to do with the traits
that are associated with it. As a gay man (chuckles) of all of us, I'm not the most masculine man. But I do think that the
good aspects of masculinity are definitely under attack. But I don't think that it's disappearing, it's just being channeled
in different ways. - It depends on how you look at it, because a lot of the traits can also be embodied in
women and in femininity. So when we look at masculinity, I think that we have to also look at what is the actual definition
of femininity and masculinity. And if we're defining
masculinity by being stoic or muscles or body parts, then is it really masculinity? - A lot of times when you
guys spoke about masculinity, you associated with men being manly. But I think more women are
embracing their masculinity. Masculinity is still there. I mean, just other genders are using it. Being courageous, being powerful, more women are standing in their power, which is again associated masculine, but it's not specific to just men. Women are no longer submissive,
they're are dominant. Women don't need men. And I think that most
of America's realizing that anyone can be powerful on their own. - I believe that the masculine
traits are inherently in men and men have to take a position. You made a really good point by saying women are now
becoming more masculine. They feel as if they don't need men, which I think is the problem here. I think that the way we been
designed by God, in my opinion, is that men are to lead,
men are to be strong, men are to be brave, men have to take their rightful position. The way our country has been
structured to this point have been because of strong
men who have taken a stand, who have fought wars. Now I feel like it's getting so lopsided that our families are degrading, people don't know where
they're at in this country. - Now in 2022, masculinity
is being redefined. And I think what happens
is people get upset when things start to change. I think that nobody ever wants
to take that away from men. I think that what we want
to do in the world now is start to understand
what is masculinity. And it's always been
really associated with this very machismo space. And now there's different
kinds of men in the world. There's not just biological men. There's also trans men or people who wanna be masculine. So I think what's happening now is people are pushing against change. 'Cause change is scary, and
people don't understand. And so I think men, biological men, feel under attack, when I that's
not what's happening here. - The point that you made is 100% correct. There are different phases and people are experiencing
in different ways. The feminist movement is, I think, they are attacking masculinity within men. I don't want a man to open a door for me. I don't need a man in my life. I can do all these different things. What they're doing is attacking men and that's what's causing a problem. - What part of the feminist
group feels like it's attacking? 'Cause I know that most feminism is like wanting equal pay or- - Well, you just said
that women not needing men is somehow empowering. Having a man is somehow less empowering or being an individual is somehow less. - But that's how women feel. Women actually are saying that
because that's how they feel. It's like-
- That's not how every woman feels, that's just an assumption-
- But no one's saying every woman. Women speak for themselves. So all of you are gonna
have different opinions as biological men. Women all have different opinions. You'll see a very specific
group of women saying this. - You did just say that's how women feel. So are you speaking on
behalf of all women? - No, I'm not. Let me take that back. The women who are saying
that feel that way. - Why do you feel that women
in general feel disempowered? - No, I don't think in general. No, no, no, that's a
generalized statement. You can't say that, I said women- - But you're the one-
- No, I did not. I said the women who say that. - You associated somehow, women are now embracing masculinity, which means that they
are now more empowered because they don't need a man or if- - They don't need a man. Men feel empowered when women need them. - But I don't think
that women's empowerment comes from having a man
or not having a man. So why is it always associated that a woman's now empowered
because she doesn't need a man. A woman has always been empowered. Women have never been-
But they've never felt that- - That's not true, that's not true.
- I mean if we go back to the 1920s, if you're gonna do that, but that's not-
- But of course- - We're talking about society right now. - Right now, you actually think women are empowered right now? - Absolutely, women are empowered. - 'Cause of the vice president? And how long did it take for
her to become a vice president? (whoosh air) - [Announcer] "There is a right and wrong way to be a man." Take a second to think about it. - I think that when I originally heard the question being
asked, I didn't agree with it, but men are not abusive individuals. Men are not to be cowards. Men are to lead their families. And men who do not display that, I don't believe that they
are men, in my opinion. And all of the qualities
that I see in my father is what I believe a man should be. - All of those characteristics
are what make a man. And when I see a man be
a coward in the truth, and just speaking the truth or
sticking up for what's right, especially today in America,
with everything going on, I'm like, those are not men. (whoosh air) My name is Clarkson. I'm 24 years old and
I'm a conservative man. My biggest question for the other side really is are you happy? Anybody that wants to
fundamentally change society and change gender roles,
to me that's not happiness. And if we wanna fight for acceptance, we need to start with acceptance, which is accepting society for what it is. - At the end of the day, we're all men. And I don't believe there's
any wrong way to be a man. We're just redefining
what it means to be a man. - But there are things
that naturally come to men. So when you say we're just
redefining what being a man is, you have to understand you're redefining a fabric and society that
has kept the human race and got it to where it is today. So just like aimlessly throwing out, "Oh, well we're just redefining
what it is to be a man." That's not just like a light subject that we should be talking about. - But why do you think
we have to stay the same? Why do we need to have the same thing for 100s and 100s of years? - Do you not see the state-
- It's not same thing. - It's just the same.
- It's just keeping the same qualities. - But do you see the
state of our world today? It's not perfect. It has been led by men
throughout all of history and look where it's gone. - So we're talking about redesigning what it means to be a man. So what do you wanna
bring to traditional men? - I think it's embracing
that you can be vulnerable. I think that a lot of men
wanna portray strength, strength, strength. But men are people. And I know that men have feelings. - Being a man and masculinity, those are two different things. And I believe that we can
redefine whatever that means to anybody by including other types of men or other types of masculinity. I, myself am a father. I have a child. Some people would disagree
with me being a father because I am transgender. But that being said, I present
to the world as a male. My child sees me as a man. - There's proper ways
to be vulnerable, right? You don't have to break down in front of your family and cry. It's okay to suffer in silence as well. Strong men, I believe exude the qualities that you guys are referring to. I think the problem is
overcorrection, right? Some people believe that men need to cry and lay on the ground and
be feminine, like women. (whoosh air) My name is Brandon. I'm 34 years old and
I'm a conservative man. I had a lot of curiosities about what it's like to be a person who believes that they're trans man. I feel like God has created
all of us very uniquely. And although I have beliefs and I follow the Bible to the tee, I still wanna know from other people what their experiences are,
doesn't mean I have to agree, but I really want to know
what other people are feeling from the person who's
experiencing it real time. (whoosh air) - [Announcer] "I have male privilege." - Oh, sit over here. (both laughs) I've lived both lives. And I can tell you firsthand
that it does exist. I am taken much more
seriously in my career, since I've transitioned as a man. Prior to transitioning, I
would work just as hard, if not harder for the same
position, and not be considered. The minute that I transitioned, I am immediately taken more seriously. I can give you an example. Obviously with COVID there's
like the mask mandate, right? So I have to tell customers all the time, it needs to up your nose, right? All day, my manager who's above me, who is a woman will have to go to them, tell them they give her a fight. But the minute I just look
in their direction, it's up. It doesn't seem like a privilege, but it is, because now
my manager has to work three times harder for
something that's so simple. - I think the word privilege is the thing that turns a lot of people
off with this conversation. But that being said again, myself, living my life as a female,
pretty much half my life, and then now half my life as a man. There is no way I could not
be honest about the fact that my life has changed drastically, also being a white man. That's also a conversation a lot of people don't wanna have, but I have privilege of being white and privilege also of being a man now. I can walk into any room
and command that room in a heartbeat because
people just do that with men. And I think the thing
is that biological men are born into that space, so
they'll never ever see it. Why do we now, as women
who have become men, get to have this thing? It's 100% because we are
men, we look like men, nobody would ever know, no one would ever know
that we used to be women. So it's actually a real lived experience. - So I agree with a lot
of what you all are saying as far as like transitioning. But as a black man, privilege
looks way different for me. Because if I'm walking down the street, then I'm seen as a threat by police, by women, by anybody else. Being seen as a man is
where my privilege stops, and where everything else begins. So I don't see it as privilege. - Okay, I got a lot to
say about this topic here. First of all we have to be transparent and honest with each other. I think that not everybody on this side presents a 100% like a man. Like if I saw you in the streets, I wouldn't think you were man. Men have it really hard in this world. And they always had it hard in this world. The wars have been fought by men. They've died in the 100s of 1000s. Men commit suicide more, men
work more the dangerous jobs. If somebody broke into
this place right now, who are they gonna expect
to defend everybody in here? It's gonna be the man. If your family fails, they're
not looking at your wife. They're not, they're looking at the man. I just want people to understand it. There's some advantages that men have. And then also men do struggle
in custody and all kinds of different things.
- Oh, no, a 100%. I 100% agree with you as a man now, right? But I think my perception of
it is different than yours. 'Cause you were born male,
you were raised male. You have a whole other space in that. And I totally respect
your opinion on that. And I believe that that
is a true lived experience as a born man. - Yeah, and let me add with the black man, because we have a different, a total different reality in that. In no way form or fashion,
do I go into a room and I feel like I'm lesbian. I think I command presence
when I go into a room because the way I'm dressed and I'm tall. I go in the streets, I've never had a person across the street. I've never been attacked
by a police officer, I was a police officer. I've been pulled over probably three times in my entire life. - My biggest question with this and why I don't necessarily
agree with it is 'cause when it comes to privilege, there's not really a way to quantify it. It's very subjective. So like your version of male privilege and your version of male
privilege are very different. - So it's hard to see the other side 'cause you never lived it. - Yeah.
- The difference between you and us, is we see it, because we've lived it, you have not. So it's easy to speak and be
like, well it doesn't do exist. Well, how would you know? - Well, I'm not saying it doesn't exist. I think everybody has certain privileges. But I think the question here is what defines male privilege over women, 'cause women have privileges too. So is there a graph that
you guys are calculating to make men have more than women or what? - The privilege is not
acknowledging what you have that comes so easy. - So do you think that your fear, because you live both sides, do you think your fear is
something that you have in your mind or you think it's a reality, because no one-
- No. - Lemme say this, you never
really changed as a person. You're the same person as you were
- Right exactly. - So you have the same physical
capabilities that you did when you were a woman.
- No, no. - You don't? - No, my strength is
entirely different after taking hormones-
- Well, what percentage would you say? - More than a 100%, I weigh like 100 pounds-
- But you're still not probably as strong as me. - But it's not about strength. It's that women are targeted. Men are not targeted. I mean, maybe sometimes, we're not saying it's never gonna happen- - They're targeted by other men- - Right, right, but women
are targeted more that men I think women have less of a safe space. - I disagree, men don't have a safe space. If you go to certain cities-
- But I'm talking about- - They get murdered by other men.
- Okay, but I'm not talking about certain cities. I'm talking about everyday life. - Yeah, everyday life.
- Not certain cities. - Have you ever been attacked as a woman? - I have.
- I haven't. - I've been raped, I've been attacked. I can go on and on and on. I was homeless, living in the
streets, raped all the time. It happens, it's a real thing. I didn't see the guys on
the street getting raped, but you- - But men do get raped.
- 100% but the experience- - Do you get kids down the street, like- - I mean women say things to me. When I was the police officer- - Do you feel threatened? You feel empowered though, right? - No, I don't feel powerful
at this it's disgusting. - But do you feel scared? Do you feel threatened
when a woman calls you? - No I don't. But I don't feel threatened
if a man try to challenge me- - 'Cause you have that male privilege. - Right, as a woman, you'd feel different. - What if a man was whistling at you when you were walking down the street? - I've had it happen to me. I had gay men whistle to me but- - And how does that make you feel? - I don't care.
- Okay, cool. - I mean, as long as you
don't touch me we cool. You may think I'm attractive that's fine, that's cool, I get it. - I think women will say the same thing. As long as you're not
trying to be predatory, and I've seen it, because I go to clubs with
my friends who are girls, and I have to tell the men to literally leave them alone
because they keep going, and they're predatory and
they're literally scouting out for women that are drunk or
whatever, not even drunk. She could say no 1000 times and they're still gonna bother her. But the minute that I
say something, they stop. - Women are not as strong as men and they get targeted. Sure, yes, that is a privilege
that men have over women. But that doesn't mean
that men have privilege because of that one situation. Men commit suicide way more than women do. - Because if we're gonna go that route, trans men commit suicide twice the rate.
- I know, you're right. But that's not- - I think what's important here is to distinguish the fact that yes, no one is negating the fact
that women can get preyed on. There's situations where
this happens, right? No one's gonna deny that. But we're also just trying to say that it's not like a one-sided coin
here where there's no pro... Like men are just... We just have it good and
we can do whatever we want. We we can't even be the
next Supreme Court Justice, 'cause we- (Buck laughs) - But again, I live as a man. So I see the difference. Now when I said I have privilege
and I walk into a room, of course, but then there's other things that are expected of me now as a man that I would never knew
were expected of me. - So would you guys agree that women, that there's such thing
as female privilege? - Absolutely.
- Oh, sure, a 100%. - My wife has privilege
because she has me. - That's right. - So, so you don't have
to worry about her safety because I'm there. - I don't believe that as a man, there's marketing for women-owned brands. like I said I can't be the
next Supreme Court Justice. Women are very much more empowered today, which I think is... I don't have a problem
with it, good for you. But I think that the man I am, I probably have privilege
'cause I'm six foot 210, like no one's picking on me
when I walk down the street. I used to live in Chicago and I used to walk home
all the time at night. But like, it was that smart? Probably not, but I felt a little safe. 'Cause you, I'm not five
foot 100 pounds. (whoosh air) I'm Max, I'm 29 and
I'm a conservative man. In today's society, women and
men can be whatever they want, and can be successful or strong, or as big of a leader as they choose. So I'm just wondering in a society that is so seemingly level, more level than ever before, why are we transitioning to
different genders to defined and what are we looking for. - [Announcer] "Biology determines gender." - So sex and gender people try to argue that they're different, but sex and gender
actually go hand to hand. And our biology being a man comes down to every fiber within our body. So whether that be DNA, chromosomes, testosterone levels, bone density, there's a whole bunch of
different factors that go into it. And it all has to do with biology. - So biology, I a 100% believe in biology. Today we talk about biology
being a social construct. I disagree with that as
a transgender person, I was born biologically female,
I always acknowledge that. And today I live as a male. Now that being said sex and gender, they are trying to separate those things. Gender can be... I've chosen my gender,
as you see, nobody would, I think, probably understand
that I used to be a female. Now, many people do, like you just said, believe that sex and gender are one thing and you can never change those. I'm not trying to change anything. I'm trying to show the world
that this is how I've feel by presenting the outside. But I think denying biology is where we get into a lot of problems. - So if you wanna be
seen as a man then like- - [Buck] Right on.
- Who are you to... I don't care, you do
whatever makes you happy. But I think we get... It becomes a slippery slope. It's like, how are we going
to deny basic human facts? Like there's transgender.
- I think that causes problems and it causes problems for me. - Yeah.
- Because the minute I start denying your biology, now you feel attacked by me. - Right.
- And I don't want you to feel attacked by me. I never want you to feel,
I want to be a part of, if that makes sense. You don't have to agree with my choice of how I live my life. But all I ask for is respect. - What do you have on your driver license and your birth certificate. Did you change it too-
- So that being said, I transitioned to live
as a man 29 years ago. So that was way before
you see any of this stuff. And I had to acknowledge
my biology, right? That being said, my license, I travel the world it has to say male, can you imagine if I
showed up at the airport, they're like "female," (laughs) "dude, there's something
wrong going on here." But I actually got my birth
certificate changed to male. I was the first person to
do that here in Los Angeles. But that being said, I kind of think that it
might have been a mistake to do that now looking forward today, because I never thought we would be having this conversation. - I'm glad you said that because I love that people can express themselves. We live in America. It doesn't matter what I
believe or my religion is. I love that people can
live their best life. I never in my life protests or try to go against a
person who want to identify. The problem is, is when you begin to
try to change language, and you begin to try to change reality. And therefore it changes on the children. And all of that becomes problematic. If a person says, "okay, I acknowledge I'm
born as a man or a woman, but I want identify as this." Cool, I respect that. And even if I didn't
wanna see it that way, and some people may be
a little more ambiguous. I wouldn't never disrespect you I'll call you by your name. - That's right.
- Whatever name that you wanna be associated
with, I'll do that. And I think if everybody in the country can get on that same page. I think we'll see less division. - I've noticed in a lot
of the trans individuals that I've met, the older generation
who had it a lot harder in society to be accepted is a lot more willing to
have the conversation. - We didn't have social media. I didn't have cell phones. I didn't have computers
when I transitioned. This is how you build bridges. (whoosh air) I'm buck, I'm 59 years
old, and I'm a trans man. Because I'm an elder trans man now. And there's a much newer generation. There's a definite space where I have a different way of being
than the younger generation. And why I tend to call
myself a transsexual man. And I believe in biology,
I believe in binary. So it really does not necessarily align with a new thought
process that is happening with a newer generation. - So I love this question. With trans folks, biology does change. Our bone density does change. Our muscle structure does change. Our testosterone levels do change. So biologically, we do change. Anatomically, now that's where
surgeries come into play. So when we're talking
about biology and gender, that can't be changed. Our biology, absolutely
and concretely changes. - Not the DNA.
- But our biology- - DNA is not changed. - Yeah, DNA is not
gonna change for anyone. - So you acknowledge there's
a biological difference between males and females. Because some people on
the other side with say, there's no difference. Like I could look like a
girl, not having testosterone, but I'm still a male. - Some people are male, some people are female, chromosomally. But when we start to take testosterone, our bodies do biologically change. - What about trans men who
don't take testosterone? - Then their bodies don't biologically. - That their biologically
still female, right? - Well, and gender in itself
is something we get to choose. That's just like you said- - In your life, you get to choose, you don't get to choose it for the world, but you get to choose-
- I get to choose my gender. - I've been a testosterone for 10 years. Okay, going on 11 years. - But there is some anatomy
that will never change. - That's right. - You still have ovaries. You still have-
- Yes. - The female reproductive system. You said that you had a child. - Yes, I've given birth. I no longer have female reproductive. - Right, right, but you, you had that. You will never get male productive organs. - Now, when you think about it, the male and female
productive organs are similar, and they're nearly the same... They're different,
they're different in size. - Even if-
- They biologically- - And they are different
functionality too. - Not necessarily because
the test and ovaries are very much similar. One an egg, one is a fertilizer
and that's the difference. - But I never can produce sperm. - You're absolutely,
you're absolutely right. - And they can never produce ova. - And you guys are saying that genders like a social construct, is
that what you're saying too that you could change it. But also if you wanna
be technical about it, age is a social construct. Your ethnicity and race
is a social construct. And I'm Hispanic, I can't say I'm Chinese. 'Cause I like Chinese food (Buck laughs) I could bleach my skin all I want- - No race is not... How is ethnicity gonna be a construct? - There's all social construct- - How exactly-
- If you look up is race a social construct, ethnicity a social construct,
is time a social construct? Everything's a social construct if you wanna think about it that way. But we have set truths and
we can't change those truths. If you wanna say you're trans man, that means you're a biological
female that thinks that- - No, I am a biological male. I'm an anatomically, anatomically- - See he's have a different
version of it then, and I think it's a really
important that you understand what're gonna-
- And it's anatomic, okay. Because biologically I have shifted, okay? Transmitting going from one to the next. - Biologically and all these things. I know that there's importance
for you guys, but meeting me, you're seeing me, you would never know. So why is it important? - We no, cause just-
- And I'm just curious- - Just say if I was a woman,
just say if I was a woman and I wanted to date you, what are you gonna tell me? - I would tell you that I'm trans- - No, no, I'm saying you can't
tell me that you're a man. - I mean, I'm still a man. - No, no, but you gotta tell me, you gotta tell me that
you were born a woman. You have to.
- I don't have to. - Well, 'cause if I go down,
if I see in your pants. I'm gonna see something different and that will be troubling to me if had expectations.
- But again, this is like leading off the topic. But I mean to answer your
question, if you must know, I do tell the person that I'm talking to or interested to that I'm transgender. I don't think that you need it to... You don't need a penis to be a man. And I know that you may disagree, which is fine, I get it,
but I don't want one. - No, I have a question for all of you. Do your penises make you man? - Yes biologically
- Part of them- - Is that what makes you a man? - Say being abandoned grain within every part of your body so our cells are-
- Right. But If you had to look at
the difference between us, and between you, now, would that difference
be the lack of a penis? - If we were naked-
- Okay, so if we're gonna minimize being a man to that particular anatomy. - We didn't we didn't minimize. - No, no, no, I'm asking
the question, okay? If we minimize it, because this is where we're
going is anatomy, right? Because that's where we've gotten- - A basic biology.
- So if we get there, so do your penises make
you more men than us? - It's part of what does.
- It's not making more or less, we're a biologically man. You are not a biological man. - It's not a spectrum. So it's not a question that we can answer because you're saying on the spectrum, would this make us more of a man than you? But no, it's because we are
a man and you guys aren't. - Well, we're different-
- So, so we're not men. - We're different-
- Is exactly what you just said.
- In my view, you guys are appropriate the gender and you are living as a man, but biologically you are not a man. So to me you can't say, okay, well does that
make us more of a man? That's not even a question to ask because you're not a biological man. When it comes down to asking questions that make me start to
change what the truth is and what the truth isn't, putting it on a spectrum
when it's an objective truth. That's where I draw the line. - What's the biggest
problem with what he said, it doesn't make what
you feel any different. The biological truth is the truth. And why can't that be the truth? And you also say, "but I feel like on the
inside that I'm a man, and I'm gonna present that way." - The argument is that
people try to invalidate who we are with that. I'm not saying that you
guys are doing that, but a lot of society
in the world does that. Well, biologically you're a female. What hurts trans people
that people don't realize what they're doing is it's very harmful. You gotta be aware of what you're saying and what you're putting out there. You know what I mean, like- - Yeah, yeah, no, a 100% I would... And that's why I think we all agree. We would never try to offend
you or anything like that. To be honest, if I saw
one of you in the streets. I don't care. It is not gonna bother
me that you want to... I would know unless I pulled
your pants down or something. Why do you feel like you have
to present the way you do, facial hair? Could you be a man without
having facial hair? - I mean, yeah.
- Because you feel like you're a man. - I'm in the early stages of testosterone. I haven't hit one year yet, but personally for me, I
crave having a full-on beard like these fine gentlemen,
you guys all, (all laughs) like, I crave it. (all laughs) But I do believe, like not having this little small (mummers) have going on, it does make me feel more dysphoric. It makes me feel like, oh, this is how it presented
before transitioning. - Do you feel like it's something that has gone wrong at birth? Like you're born and you say, "well, genetics and evolutions says this. Why do I feel like this yet I have this?"
- Yeah I think questioning, it was something that I always wondered, because sometimes lot people say like, "oh, it was a choice," which I hear a lot on the
other side all the time. Like it was a choice, I was legit born this way. I could remember from, I think four or five years old where I didn't feel like a
girl, you know what I mean? And I can't tell you why that happened, it was just my path in this life. And it's something that I honored and it was really hard
for me to continue living, especially when puberty hit, like time of month comes in. Obviously they anatomy changes. And that was the biggest
thing for me where I knew that okay, I can't do this. It's like you're not in your own home. (whoosh air) - [Announcer] "Children should
be allowed to transition." - Well, I was gonna say,
I find it very interesting that you and I are the
only ones that stepped up, especially since we're younger. - You should allow children
to feel what they feel, because I felt the way that I felt for as long as I can remember. And it's something that I cannot deny. - Yeah. - Although my mother is
supportive when I was younger, I wasn't allowed to wear boys clothes because that wasn't right. Now, I know we're talking
about transitioning. It doesn't always have to be hormones. It's like transitioning in society. So being able to dress more masculine. I did when I was younger, but
as I got into middle school, kids change, people are mean, so I dressed how I would in society. So I dressed like a girl or whatever, but I think that children
should be allowed to express themselves in whatever way makes
them feel comfortable. - Kids are struggling to be who they are. And there's more rates of
suicide for trans individuals because there's literally
being laws put in place to prevent them from being who they are. And that's not right, that's not right. (whoosh air) - Okay, so I work with children. This is where I have
like the biggest problem with the trans stuff is with the children, because people like... I'm sure you guys would agree. You wanna inject them with
the hormones to stop their puberty, their normal puberty. They haven't even developed
the prefrontal cortex yet. And you wanna stop their
natural puberty from occurring to affirm their gender. And then later on they regret it. I think that's not a good thing. - See, that's why this
is a loaded question because transition can mean
many things for children. Now I totally, as a transsexual person, disagree with giving children, hormone blockers, medication, surgery. What I do agree with is
socially transitioning, which means why... 'Cause I did that, okay. And I did that in the 60s and 70s. My parents dressed me
like Buck, I was a boy. I didn't have any problems
because I just lived... We used to call it a tomboy, right? So that was totally... And I went through puberty
and I did all the things, I do not believe children
can make those choices. And I do not believe it's okay and ethical for a parent to make
those choices for a child. But I do believe gender
dysphoria exists in children. I had it a 100% it's there. But to give medication to a
child is so unethical to me that you would actually... Exactly what you said, you're stunting brain growth, you're stunting all of these things. They don't have enough research on it. So I'm in agree with transitioning,
medically for children is okay for me. But I do believe in a social space. - When you say a social transition, it's interesting to me because we can't control what happens
in a social situation. - That's right, that's right. - So to me, and we talk
about suicide rates among young trans people. This whole ideology is telling people to derive their value
off of what somebody else is saying about them or what
somebody else firms to them. So we'd say that society is the problem and we're not allowing
people to be who they are and that's why they're committing suicide. But maybe it has to do with the messaging that we're sending to these kids that you derive your value from if somebody uses your correct pronoun, or you derive your value. If this person accepts
you for wearing a dress, be who you are, but tell them to be empowered about it, and not get that empowerment
from somebody else. - That's right. - I feel like that's really
kind of inconsiderate to say that someone would take their life because what someone else says to somebody that is important to somebody, I have friends who their family does not use their correct pronouns and they transition and they
live in the same household. This person struggles with
depression and anxiety. Could you imagine living in
an environment like that, where you're no longer validated? That's coming from your own parents. - But if you base your
validation off of other people, this is a hard truth. But if you're sole valuable- - No, you definitely have to listen. (cross talk) - I do what I want. But for everyone, that's not the case because everybody has
different personalities. - Right, but that doesn't make it any... That doesn't mean that we should be- - But we're not acknowledging though, is that in that environment,
it does not support. - I'm acknowledging that. We're saying that for some reason, they should look for that
validation from somebody else. - When you love somebody
and you have a family you want them to- - But you're focusing on the individual. You're focusing on the people
outside of that individual. You're focusing on
empowering that individual. - But part of being a person
is needing to be validated. You don't need to be
validated ever in your life? From your family or your friends. - I get my validation from
within and then then (beep) - Right, but if we're
talking about children. Okay, I was an eight year old, when I found out that I wasn't
biologically male, right? I was eight, when I found out that I wasn't
the same as my brothers. And so going through that process, I attempted suicide four times
because my mother was like, "well, you are a girl." When you're eight and you're 12, and you don't have anyone
else that is in your space, when you don't have anyone else that lives in the same houses
you, to tell you you're okay. Where are you supposed to go? How are you supposed to garner
your own self validation? If the people that are raising you, don't validate who you are. - As a father, my duty
is to raise my children the away I believe is right. And if my child, some
how struggles with this, which is fine, we'll
have that conversation. But I'm going to let it play out the way I believe it should be played out. And at 18 years old, you can
do whatever you wanna do. If you don't wanna wear
dresses, that's fine. Just wear it, if you
wanna dress like a boy, don't make you wanna be a boy. Don't mean you have to be a boy. My mom was a tomboy, and my mom had me and my
brother and she's a woman And she lives like that. But you may wanna dress
a little different. Maybe a boy wanna do cheerleading
or something like that. But that don't mean you need to transition to something else. So I want that to play out,
until my child is old enough to make that decision on their own. Also, you have to teach your children to have balance. Because if you just mommy and daddy to acquiesce to everything
you want, that's not reality. You have to understand that mom and daddy may not see me this way. They love me. I see myself this way and I disagree with how they speak to
me or how they're... But I love them as well. I love... Like my son, if he said it, he was... And I'm a Christian. And I don't believe in homosexuality. I don't, I don't. I respect anybody that feel that way. I never protest you at all. If my son came to me, it
would be a struggle for me to wanna go to his wedding. I'm just gonna be honest. But I think that my son should understand, this is the way my dad feel, I love him. This is the way I feel,
and we have mutual love. And that don't mean I hate you,
that just mean we disagree. And I wish that same sentiment would be. And I think it it's
the same on this panel. There's no hate in any of this, I love every single person on this side. And we may think of things differently, but we love each other,
it can't be one sided. (whoosh air)
- I am Luckie. I'm 41, and I'm a trans man. One of my greatest fears as a trans man is my life being taken from
me, because I'm a trans man. Transitioning in a black neighborhood with gang members as neighbors. They weren't having that. So the more that my body started
to look a lot like theirs, I was challenged on a regular basis, I was beaten up because
someone recognized me from prior to my transition. And approached me and confronted
me and called me a liar, and told me I was a (beep). And I out of safety was like, "I don't know what you're talking about." And they cold-cocked me,
and I lost the front tooth. - [Announcer] "I grew up with
a positive father figure." - This is good.
- (chuckles) Yeah. - I think for me it's surprising because I would believe
that a woman who.... Or a person who's born as a woman who now identifies as a man, didn't have a positive
role model as a man. And therefore they felt
somewhat insecure as a woman, which makes 'em feel a certain way and wanna be a certain different person. Maybe they want to be the man
that their father never was or whatever the case may be. And so it was very interesting. I'm being honest. It was interesting to see
pretty much a majority of you guys come forward. - That's so great. I think that's really
important that you say that because I do think a lot of
people probably feel that way about guys like me, right? That our fathers are... We didn't have the right
upbringing or what. My father was amazing. I grew up really like a little boy. I always felt like a little boy. My parents actually raised me,
and I'm 59 years old today. So that was in the 60s and the 70s when we didn't even talk
about this kind of stuff. But my parents actually felt it from me. So I think that that's a misconception that people think about people like us. - Any good father pushes their child to one be feel self-love. And to feel like they
can be who they want, do what they want, and have life liberty in the
pursuit of happiness, right? Like our founding fathers. So it's fatherlessness or having a missing dad is one a pandemic on its own. And it's one that obviously
I'm sure Brandon can attest to. It's so critical to have
a father in the house because kids get lost
when they don't have one. And having a father
that's loving and strong, and someone you can rely
on is the reason why we're all comfortable with who we are. - I had several different
father figures in my life. So it wasn't... I had a dad, but then I had my grandfather and I had my uncle, it takes a village to
raise a child. Right? But all of those different
perspectives raised me as a well rounded human. If we take the masculinity out of it, just as a human, I got to
see different perspectives. And so now as a father that
has given birth to a child, and that child being a male. I'm able to raise him
with those same ideals that I'm able to identify because of the father figures that I had. - I didn't have my father growing up. He was not present in my life at all. So it showed me that
some men can't step up, like my grandfather and my
stepfather who have taken me in, and showed me how to take care of myself, how to be strong and dependable. And all I've been able to do is give more love to all
people that I interact with. So it was really important
for me to have those figures. - I think this is a really important thing to show people that are watching this. 'Cause a lot of times I feel
like we can blame any issues in society or anything that
arises on the generation that came before us. So any issues that arise in our society, it's like, there's not always
a reason why it's happening. We just need to address
the issue and solve it. - I grew up with all women. My parents were divorced
and I live with my mom. I had my aunts. So I was raised by women, but
my dad was there sometimes. And then my stepdad took me in as his own. So I had my stepdad as a father figure. - I grew up with all women as well. My mom used to tell me, I have to be your mom and your dad. So like there'd be times where I got both. She was super sweet with
me, or really strict on me. And she taught me a lot as well,
like growing up with women, it taught me a lot of vulnerability. - When we were talking to you I was like, I relate to you
very well. (Jacob laughs) - (whoosh air) I Jacob, I'm 27 years old and I'm a trans man. So the relationship with my
dad and how unsupportive he is, has been a challenge for me. But it's something that
I've learned to grow past. And I encourage everyone that even if you don't have a
parent who is supportive to still be authentically yourself, because your life is
meant to be lived for you. And I think that choosing
my happiness above all else has made my life that much better. And I wouldn't change anything. Even though he wasn't supportive. I still wouldn't have him here. - Listening to all your guys' points. I would definitely say, yeah. I did have a father figure. He was in the Marines, and he has this very
toxic masculinity mindset. A lot of anger built up that I can definitely tell he suppressed in the Marines because that's
what he was taught to do. That's what the Marines are about. He always carried that with him. And I think that's what
he tried instilled in me and my siblings at a very young age, which made it hard for me to
be vulnerable with myself. And I just saw a lot of anger issues that were very violent sometimes. And since coming out as trans, I feel like he's been more
willing to understand me more and trying to figure out
who I am as a person. And because of that, I feel like our relationship
has definitely got a lot stronger since then. - Okay, and imagine if it was to come home and then try to be
vulnerable after suppressing so much pain and hurt for years. So it's good to hear that, he's learning and kind of
evolving and opening up. That's something where
you guys were talking about vulnerability, right? And it's like, there's times when it's good to be hard. - (whoosh air) "I don't show
emotion as much as I'd like." - I definitely have sense and noticed since transitioning
that being testosterone has made me cry less, which is very interesting
because I believe that, before I transitioned and
started taking testosterone, I feel like not being able to cry as much, it makes me feel, I'm like, "damn" I wish I could cry right now, but it's not gonna happen. - (whoosh air) Hi, I'm
Gibby, and I'm a trans man. Before transitioning I guess
only presented as lesbian. But since transitioning, I've been able to be more
comfortable with my sexuality. I've definitely seen on
like dating apps and stuff. A lot of conservative men,
fetishizing trans individuals. And it's interesting
because a lot of the time they say that they don't identify as gay or within the community. And yet they're fetishizing my community. - So I don't know about you guys, but I always speak my mind
if I feel a certain way, I'll tell somebody. And that probably costs
me a lot of relationships, but that's just how I am. (laughs) - I Don't think there's anything wrong, I know we talked about
vulnerability a long time ago. I don't know there's anything
wrong with being vulnerable. I think like we said, there's
times and places for it, knowing when it's okay to be vulnerable, and being self-aware of that. And then being strong when you need to, and being sad when it's appropriate. But I certainly am not as vulnerable, or not as emotional as probably I should, just 'cause it's not something
that I always did growing up, but I don't feel like I have
issues like suppressing. I just feel like I kind of
get it out in other ways. - Yeah, that's great, look at it like that because I believe for me
like my personal experiences. Because I was one to
transition at a very young age. And my dad being in the
military, being a veteran, he would see me being vulnerable
at times and he'd be like, "well don't you wanna be a man?" And that would make me feel like, "oh, am I not supposed to
be vulnerable anymore?" Now that I'm gonna transition. And it was just like very hard for me 'cause like I said earlier, it was hard for me to
have that father figure at that time of my life. - My process of digesting
emotions is by myself, and I use that time to self-reflect. So if I'm feeling angry or if
I'm feeling really passionate about something or
whatever the emotion is. Sometimes I pull back and
I don't show that emotion because I'm reflecting on it, and trying to understand why it's there. So I think a lot of times
people can think men aren't showing enough
emotion, but in reality they're just self-assessing
why that emotion is there in order to see what
it's trying to teach us. - Right, I think for myself, when I was female, I was much more angry. I was just reactive, angry. Like, (roars) and then as I became a man, I cry more now as a man
than I ever did as a woman. And I think it's 'cause
I'm at peace with my self. And so before I was just so
angry about being a woman and everyone calling me
she and seeing a girl, and I'd just be... And I was a fashion model. So that really just took
it to a whole other level. And then once I became a man, it was like, "whoa, I can actually relax." And I think I do the same thing. I self reflect on myself. I want to be this type of
man that is more vulnerable and that is more
accessing my own emotions. - [Announcer] Thank you everyone. - Right on.
- Thank you. - That was cool, that was cool. (men chatting distinctly) - Can I take a picture with you? (cool music)
