Men's Rights vs Feminism: Is Toxic Masculinity Real? | Middle Ground

hello everyone welcome thank you for tuning in for middle ground which is all about disagreeing and having a dialogue that's right make sure you stick around to the end because we want to discuss more about the ethos middle ground but for now we hope you enjoy you said that women are misguided we are not misguided we do not need you to Shepherd us [Music] hello I would yes an intersectional feminist Marxism to me feminism is fairness I think that it's unfortunately misguided feminism is a flow of movements aggression advocating for the human rights of man as a class I start laughing I would hope to get some insight and probably if anything agree on a lot more than disagreeing I actually hope to get a little bit more understanding of why some men think this way we'll see [Music] hi my name is Zach and I am 24 years old this is Chris I'm a PhD student at the University of Southern California and I'm also titled my specialist who challenges discrimination against men on college campuses and I'm 30 years old hi I'm Derek I'm school by brendi oh I'm youtuber and I also muscle noticin in cell which is an involuntarily celibate hi my name is Alicia I am a writer poet and teaching artist hi I currently work in the pet health industry and I'm 30 I'm 24 I'm a graduate student with a degree in Health Sciences and I'm excited to be here today I know as a woman that I don't have the same physical strengths men and women are built differently I think whenever things are built differently it's for a reason right but at the same time the amount of limits that have been put on women historically like the fact that not too long ago we were just allowed to like start voting even today like the wage gap just all types of stuff like women just don't have a lot of rights that are just it should have nothing to do with what gender we are to be able to be paid equally or just be treated with respect so yeah I do believe that of course there are biological differences between men and women and of course there should also be legal equality of course I disagree with the idea that women face systemic discrimination you just mentioned the wage gap which has been debunked so many times I've studied evolutionary biology quite a bit and men and women are very different from not just a physical you know the bone structure the neurological department as well as well as the chemical balances and also I don't believe that men and women are equal under the law either they should be rather children are not equal under the law and it's not because we hate children it's because we love them and we want to protect them so if you believe we're not equal then that you're inferring that one would be greater than the other so let me let me so that's right yes as far as not being equal I don't think that that necessarily means inferior or superior when it comes to certain things like roles like childbearing a woman is going to be far more productive and a lot more nurturing than say a man and when it comes to doing a lot more of the heavy lifting and the work a man is probably going to be more suited for that role and I don't think that that makes them any better or worse we are just built created and born different I would also like to elaborate I am NOT saying that they are worse overall or better overall they complement you said yeah they do complement each other you know to flee if they worked very well together we need each other for working their offspring I mean that that's just that's part of the beauty of it and I think trying to equalize them and make them the same and you know transition and all that I don't believe is going to be the most conducive when it comes to the fan went raising children but also just for overall well-being I want to note that you brought up children being unequal to adults I just hope you weren't comparing women to children I mean I it was technically a comparison okay I don't need you to protect me I just need you not to harm me I can protect myself I'm very capable of doing what I need to do okay okay sure 100% I am a in cell or an in cell advocates I suppose I don't hate women at all I just I think we're different and they have aspects that are superior to men as well it's just very contextual on the on the subject I think that toxic masculinity is definitely a real thing it's kind of just the idea of what masculinity should be but it goes wrong a lot of the times saying that violence sex power being a controlling person makes you a man I see it in very unfortunate places like when the young men were boys in my family even from like toddler age are told you shouldn't be crying boys don't cry and what that turns into I see it when I'm in a bookstore and a guy who tries to get my number says why y'all always got to act like that and he sincerely had this like cracking voice like he was hurt but it was an entitlement and that's toxic masculinity it's saying like you don't realize how your behavior is harmful what does toxic masculinity mean is it character traits is it upbringing the suppression of feeling for a lot of men because throughout childhood they're told man up so because of that there's a lot of repression repression then is usually channeled into anger for some people because they don't not always know how to express because they're totally not to express so upbringing and that's part of it okay but not something that's inherently far down of men no I think that you know when you're showing your emotions especially to like you know random people random women in some cases they will view you as weak I was raised by a single mother I love her she's a few no she's my mom I love her but I could have used being told to to act like a man I think back there were some cases where I was too emotional and that negatively affected how I you know what happened to me may I ask a question sure what is your definition of weak as a man um not being as forward as you could be not being as honest or you know trying to be not as emotional as you don't need to be you know you don't have to cry over a cut I know you know sometimes cuts hurt a lot but sometimes it's necessary to be strong for the benefit of not just yourself but for the people around you you know it's fine to to act emotional in certain cases but I don't think it's fine to act that way with a woman maybe you know you have a really good friend and he sees you cry like her you know your best friend and you're crying about something really personal I think that's fine feel like you're completing two different situations because you started off with saying random person or even women so it feels like okay this is a woman that you don't have a bond with or any type of relationship with and then you mentioned or from your best friend you know that's okay to cry well that woman could be your best friend that you know like what so and again a woman so because you don't see us as equal as you said before I don't think showing emotions is a sign of weakness I actually thinks it's a sign of strength men do live shorter lives and that's because of a repression of emotions and that's due to many things that patriarchy has instilled it has been shown that a person's well-being their life span is shortened when they are not able to express their emotions in addition when they don't have physical touch or when they don't have a partner to keep them company we're human beings here we need to talk to each other and if you think that our health isn't affected when you're not able to express that you're sad or upset you're wrong I think that men's rights activists are only men's rights activists as a response to women expressing that they want more equality I don't think they focus on actual men's rights issues and rather it's just an attack on women and feminism I can speak from a hiring standpoint on when it comes to things like affirmative action and there are certain rules that that traditionally men and women have been able to serve in and now women can basically do all of those things right because we've had such a strong advocacy for equal representation in the workplace whereas for example you know you'll never find a man as a midwife nurse and I don't think it's appropriate that's why there are those differences women like the most important parts of society have an advantage there's a lot of positions that men simply aren't getting hired at anymore because of you know the fact that they're a man and it's not just in in in in the workforce it's also I would say you know it's a lot easier for a woman to to find a relationship even if she you know says it's awesome finding the right guy is so hard it really isn't but the fight sometimes for a lot of guys finding a girl at all is hard if I have to consider what I wear before stepping out the house because I don't want to draw some type of attention I don't know how many other men have to consider is this outfit going to be condemned safe for me any situation that I have experienced where like I physically felt endangered simply because I don't want to give my number out it's part of that entitlement for men you're not entitled a conversation when you're not entitled to my number that aside it's like are you gonna make one example of the entitlement of men when it comes to asking for your number be the all-encompassing thing that all men have a problem when it comes to approaching women well firstly it's not just an example it's not necessarily all men I don't dislike men I love sports I play video games I have bros I hang out with dudes we just want men to realize that if you have friends that are having locker room talk as a man as an ally please say something to your friends do you think we're pressing that is really the solution here though if it's a healthy male space I don't think that's healthy I think it's again it's Ellen if you're making jokes and you're doing all jokes that are harmful jokes are not healthy because they just lead to people normalizing things people always say oh it's just a joke but when someone else hears it they don't realize how that resonates and again how that turns into violence like this is not an isolated situation I'm only thinking of three off the top of my head because if I think of too many it's gonna I'm gonna spawn so what's the alternative men shouldn't talk about these things no I think men have a healthy dialogue I don't think men have to be toxic in order to have a conversation I know plenty of men that are able to have conversations about healthy productive productive things just like women are well it's not obviously something that I have personal experience with but only 1% of all people on the d'être are women in this country so when women and men commit identical crimes women are much more likely to for example escape the death penalty and that's just plain sex-based discrimination I agree on that's true look I'm thinking about basic needs like around the globe the women who don't even have like proper like sanitary like products I mean I have to agree to small things like attacks on a box of tampons do you think I choose to do this monthly no trust me so why should I have to pay taxes when this is a medical necessity it should we're just like dismissed a lot of our symptoms a lot of the things we report especially women of color but women across the board are just treated a lot less equally I'd say that I'm an advocate for what I believe the role that men play in society I believe that their views should be expressed openly that they should be given a platform to do so and I believed in men unapologetically and unashamedly being men as we were created I think in my heart that there are things that men are entitled to I am all about human rights and I try to consider I do consider the rights of every human but every time I hear of a men's rights activists I hear anger and I hear very illogical reasoning and it just boils my blood because it's a setback for all of us I think a lot of times when a movement is created the other side thinks that they're being attacked or think that it's some like attempt at erasure that's not what feminism is about at all what do you need a whole men's rights activism movement for I'm sincerely confused well I mean like I will advocate for positive masculinity and what men should represent and healthy outlets for men like I still think the Boy Scouts should be exclusively the Boy Scouts for example one of those things where I would like to think that we could get some common ground is when it comes to the clear biases that are in the court system especially in the marriage and family court system right and and right there is what I would advocate for when it comes to men's rights the things that stand Valli like that I'm hearing from y'all that are like violet to me come from a place of like I am treated like unfairly by the system versus a lot of the things women are saying it's also America and a system as well but a lot of is like harm from men how and where how and where what where's this harm from men coming okay it started when I was young I'm not gonna talk too long I was 16 got a bottle thrown at me because I told her boy I know it started when I was in a club a boy touched me I said no he kept touching me got to the point he got violent he gets to the point that the only reason why a man decided to stop touching me in the bookstore I talked about earlier is because he realized my husband was not too far away he said sorry bro never said sorry to me that's why and that's off the top of my head this is why I get upset because I'm like I'm here to talk about like how you feel but when you just dismiss the fact that women actually have experiences that's when it seems like it's about more than your rights it seems like it's about your ego and that's where I get pissed off not where you tell another human being that their experiences what they're telling you right in front of your face is not valid I didn't say they were invalid said how and why I'm trying to understand why because it happened it happened many times it happened yesterday okay I think some of the things that you guys are touching on such as the court system and gender roles are a subject of patriarchy and that's part of what women are trying to dismantle is those traditional gender are there is a feminist organizations that have done anything for example to challenge bias against men and fathers and yeah of course can you please give me like a list of feminist advocacy organizations that have engaged in any meaningful advocacy they are just those issues because they are actually none okay I know that you came with your little research or whatever I didn't come with a list of like feminist organizations but I know actively that there are women's organizations that are trying to dismantle those injuries just one name just one again somewhat the list my dude there are no such organizations I think that has been significant progress over the last decade or so especially in the legal field but I think there are still significant disparities that need to be addressed such as poor health conditions bias against men in the criminal justice system bias against men in family courts and a bias against men in the educational system especially in colleges men unfortunately many of them don't want to even have this open dialogue that we're sharing right now we need men to help be allies to help speak to other men it strikes me like the way you phrase this you almost want men to say certain things that you want them to say I supposed to maybe actually listening that what they're saying is just kind of like men being allies men talking each other men had cetera I'm completely ok with that but I'm not going to repeat like feminists talking points to other men we all believe different things we may be under the label of men's rights activists but for example I'm probably the most traditionalist person here I think we should be allies but maybe us being allies in a patriarchy wouldn't be so bad you know us going back to the past wouldn't be so bad it would probably be a lot happier we were you know getting married and staying married and having kids and you know going to church and all that well speaking the three of you I feel like there are your each coming from different perspectives so it's hard to you know again just like the FEM are our perspectives it's hard to generalize so to me I feel like there are certain things that even though we're not fully agreeing on it where things may get lost in translation or verbage they may not be high percent correct that we could at least agree on can I ask one question what would you envision would be the ideal man with the end goal of feminism as far as educating men or working to dismantle whatever patriarchy is like what what does that man look like it starts with childhood we have to teach children as well as girls because we're also taught because of toxic masculinity what are what a man should be as well I think that we just need to hold men accountable in order to kind of make progress we need help from people that will listen because let's be real when we express our concerns a lot of men refuse to listen but they would be more likely to listen to another man do you also feel like you have an ethical obligation to challenge other women or other feminists men for example they deny that men face discrimination when it comes to things like oh man can't be abused I've actually have had this conversation with another woman and it's the idea that just because I mean maybe physically stronger than us does not mean they cannot be abused and because of that again fairness women need to be held accountable as well I want to understand their viewpoint as a woman and a woman of color I know how it feels to be disenfranchised so I want to understand why they feel the need to have a men's right movement I don't think there's ever a time in my life for a person says they're hurting and I don't at least try to listen or understand my only thing is that I want the same in return so when I'm genuinely saying I'm hurting or I've been through something and it's not just a personal experience because I actively do this work I surround myself with women saying I've been hurt by a man before I get that you have stories but I mean that's actually my question I haven't heard y'all stories like I've set up here and said I have three on the top of my head I have about 30 plus roughly and I haven't heard y'all say this is what happened to me I don't think that I'll ever invalidate a woman's feelings when she says hey I've been abused or whatnot I don't think any of us here are rightfully saying that but I think what's dangerous is when emotional testimony that may not always be what it is gets you know creates bias right okay I feel empathy for women being lost being this guy look mm I don't know outlets you can go do you have any bit of empathy for anybody said yes I really do feel a bit evil why was that so hard to say like for the stuff that we said you have any any bit of empathy for the stories I say I do like I'm not even trying to be hostile just generally want to know yeah I just think they'd like a lot of the problems that have happened in your life are because society is not patriarchal it's not traditional it's it's we're gone we're lost we we're gonna fall in states right there is a change of guard not necessary change of guard but things are evolving things are changing and I feel like a lot of men speak from a viewpoint almost a fear a lot of men are having a hard time grasping that and feeling comfortable with it I do feel empathy for your personal experience but I cannot sympathize with your ideological position because that ideological position is built on a fallacy and a fallacies actually cost like very that's causing very real consequences for men as a class in this country so I understand that you are here with us it's kind of the good feminist so to speak that you feel empathy for men and I believe you but I do not believe you're a movement and I do not believe your ideology [Music] I'm sweaty you are very articulate are you okay that was interesting John what do you think it means to disagree thoughtfully I think when you disagree it's important to acknowledge the other side's opinion and to kind of respect that opinion and to know that maybe you can't change it and I think like we've had a lot of middle ground where people stick to their sides but they at least acknowledge and try their best to understand where the other person is coming from and sometimes I think that's the best we can ask for well we want to hear from you all to let us know about you know something that you may have agreed with or disagree with we want to see the same type of meaningful dialogue in the comments below we'll be looking out for those as always make sure you leave a comment like subscribe I'll see you guys next time [Music]

Channel: Jubilee

Views: 9,699,126

Rating: 4.8083596 out of 5

Keywords: jubilee, jubilee media, jubilee project, live deeper, blind devotion, love language, middle ground, spectrum, men's rights vs feminists, feminism vs men's rights, what is the men's rights movement, mgtow, toxic masculinity, gender roles, gender equality, gender pay gap, gender bias, family court system, is sexism real?, what do feminists believe?, men's rights activists, traditional gender roles, feminist movement

Id: hOUGNGWmN0k

Length: 24min 2sec (1442 seconds)

Published: Sun Dec 01 2019

Reddit Comments

[u/Jakeybaby125]

Should've had better representation. Those three men were deliberately brought in as stereotypes of the mens rights movement perpetuated by feminism.

[u/ChrisKleinFanGirl]

This channels videos are so biased

[u/[deleted]]

I literally remember one of the guys asked her a question and she randomly started crying about her sexual assault and he just sat there, so lost at to what was happening

[u/[deleted]]

It's funny when I see an MRA giving excellent points then the feminist just goes for that little example and be like "so we're like children? We don't need your protection." xD made me laugh

[u/Drayelya]

Pretty one sided video, a big part of it was failure on the men’s part to challenge the women with counter questions that point out the vast inequalities under the law and on social media.

[u/the-mega-sad]

One thing I noticed a lot, the feminists were a lot more defensive and weren’t as open to hearing the opinions of the men’s rights activists. The men used facts, statistics, and personal experiences, while the women used common clichés and opinions based off of that of the ideal of feminism, instead of developing their own ideas and beliefs. One of the women came across as passive aggressive, attempting to subtly insult the men. The common theme among the women, is they say one thing and do another. They say they want to be more understanding about the other side, yet they act closed off, like their ideology is set and nothing will change that or break through that barrier. I will acknowledge, the women had some very good points, and them men, some not-so-good points. But it seems to me like the women wanted to silence the men and cut them off as they were trying to say their peace. As this is all happening, you don’t see the men interrupt them once, they don’t step up and say ‘hey, I’m talking, may I say what I need to say?’. They’re silent, they let the women talk, and once they’re done, they attempt to voice their beliefs, but instead of returning that kindness, the women build up their barrier, become defensive, interrupt and insult the men as they’re talking. Double standards have a huge presence throughout this video, and it’s noticeable.

[u/[deleted]]

It’s ironic I’ve heard feminists accuse mras of gaslighting when feminists are the ones who say misandry doesn’t exist, I’ve never once heard a mra say misogyny doesn’t exist.

[u/OnlyOneIronMan888]

I like the part where one of the women says she didn't bring a list while the other guy is stating facts

[u/PeanutbutterDruidess]

Honestly I think the only way this maybe could have been a fair “debate” was if the mra had a woman on their side. I find in discussions like this women only consider another women’s perspective... and that’s even a stretch.