'Be A Man': Modernists and Traditionalists Debate Masculinity | VICE Debates

I'm so tired of like paying 150 for a first date and then you just ghost me and the next week I'm like hurting for cash I'm like I could have really used that 150 like why did I have to so the trade-off of like going on a date and as the man being like oh this sucks I have to pay or as the woman being like oh this sucks I might get murdered it's like a pretty big yeah how you guys doing my name is Krishna thank you all for being here and talking through masculinity what it means to be a man Etc obviously we couldn't fit every man in the country into this room uh we tried to get a diverse perspective but of course that caveat we're not everyone I wanted to start by telling you why this is something that I'm interested in I have an eight-year-old son and I'm seeing him absorb what manliness might mean like I'm thinking to myself like what does it mean to be a man to start maybe we could just introduce each other to each other and if you were to describe what it means to be a man or to be masculine oh my name is Tahoe I'm a black man from the hood when I was young being a man you had to be tough you had to be hard and now to me being a man is a lot different now to me being a man is knowing when to be soft knowing that you don't always have to run the charge you can actually listen you know what I mean so things have changed a lot over the course of the years for me I'm Griffin and I don't identify as a man um I'm non-binary I still have elements of you know my identity that are masculine elements that are feminine elements that don't fall within that range and I I personally just don't feel tied to like the the Norms or the confines of gender at all well welcome my name is Dylan and I think that the notion of masculinity is just some something that can be possessed by man or woman man woman non-gender conforming person what it means to be masculine is just like you know changing and like very fluid but I think that you know masculinity is something that just you know like you embody based off of just like how you show up in this world as a man and just and just like you know how you go about being your day-to-day how you show up interesting yes what's up guys my name is Paul I'm a fitness entrepreneur uh I'm an immigrant I came here when I was four years old with my family it's kind of funny how we're talking about it my take on masculinity is is not about talking as much as doing I think at its at its core a man has to be efficient competent and be willing to do what it takes for for themselves and their and their loved ones I was not always a good man I was not always what you would call a healthy masculine man and so as my life has changed I've identified Five Points that I think make a truly masculine man masculine okay I think Point number one is a man who walks with God Point number two is a man who stands on principle Point number three which is a masculine man is self-sacrificing so someone who is willing to sacrifice for point for the people that he leads a true man is a leader and number five a masculine man is never a coward that's a lot there yeah um and that let's get into that as we go on I think what it means to be a man is responsibility as a man it can come with a lot of power and with great power comes good responsibility in short words does it that's from Spider-Man yeah Uncle Ben um James well uh my name is James Killen uh former United States Marine turned Air Force officer uh got a couple combat tours but I'm also a father of three girls um who mellowed me out the idea of of masculinity is something that I find interesting because it is changing and I can actually see those changes in myself and I think that's one of the reasons why uh why I wanted to do this panel thanks for your service Andre hey what's up uh yeah men men men uh I think uh my idea of a real man is uh you know someone that gets the job done you know and um provides and all that I don't even know what that means anymore but um yeah I don't know it's changing every day how do you think it's changing no it just seems like everything is changing every day it's like a new world order you know so I don't uh I have a hard time keeping up with stuff so I feel like tomorrow it's going to be something else and people are going to comment be like you're wrong dude it's this now but it's hard to talk about some of this stuff because you feel like you might say the wrong thing I'm not really masculine myself so I can't I feel like I'm like the wrong person to ask you know maybe the right person to ask Christian what it means to be a man is to be a adult human male that's sort of a very formal definition but I think that might be a good place to kick off because there's a lot of talk of writing of research these days that says there's a crisis in masculinity is there a crisis in masculinity and if so like what is that crisis thing that I see is is a lot of deconstructing generational trauma the be a man Boys Don't Cry you know this that and the other thing and I think that's actually one of the reasons why we see it as um as a crisis because we're actually trying to redefine uh what it what it means to be a man and none of us have any idea um because we're just out here trying to be whoever we are that's right I think that historically being a man was rooted in patriarchy and misogyny and now we realize how harmful that has been over the years um and so we don't really know how to define where we're supposed to be and I think the reason as they're saying is a crisis is because the box has gotten so small for just being say straight just being a hetero right because if you do anything women judge you what do you mean anything if I dance a certain way or if I wear my hair a certain way if I dress a certain way they go real men don't do that real men don't do that and so you get scared to move a certain way because you don't want to get judged or outed out of the accepted part of your community um and I think that that kind of has Us in an uproar and we don't know where to be like where's the safe place to be for men now you know what I mean and it's kind of disturbing you know I was what you would call a toxic masculine male growing up and I had good men that sewed into me you know they gave me good advice but I never found manhood and I never understood my place as a man until one day I humbled myself and I gave my life to the Lord Jesus Christ and I'm telling you right now walking with God changed my life forever can you define toxics masculinity like I would say toxic masculinity is like what he was just saying where you're using that that leadership role or that aggressive nature in a harmful way to harm other people to get your way so the biblical structure for manhood is very humble it's self-sacrifice not self-motivated but it is motivated by principle and standing on what's right so there is a clear-cut vision for manhood in the Bible that I live by and I think our culture used to live by and I think our culture has lost its way I think everybody sort of has a different definition of toxic masculinity I don't find masculinity toxic in it of itself but I do believe believe in bad men and bad men exist but does that mean every man is toxically masculine no we were talking about a crisis on masculinity I think that there's a lack of understanding there so it's like masculinity being masculine isn't toxic it's just like there are portions of it that you can dive into that make it toxic because I think a lot of what we think of masculinity is tied into patriarchy right which is to say like for the longest period of human history like men dominated women and got the Lion's Share of stuff I think a lot of times some people make masculinity into a caricature like it has to be this Alpha bro tough guy and I find the low-key guy who you know is a really great father and a great husband and maybe not like drinking raw eggs every day to be a lot more masculine than the alpha bro who's going and like banging 20 women per weekend and not a responsible man I find it more masculine to be a good guy I think the background of this is that we are saying that gender is this like real thing that has real ideas and implications and Griffin I'm wondering as you someone who identifies as non-binary how does this conversation strike you well I think that it kind of becomes like irrelevant whether or not we attribute like having like a good ethical Compass to being like masculine attributing that to like the gender constructs which we have made up which are like somewhat pointless like kind of just feed into needless roles that uphold the patriarchy without even knowing it a lot of those things are just things that people should be doing because they're like morally right like if you're in a family you should probably support your family and I really don't think that it has to do with like your manhood these characteristics that we're talking about are baked into an old system of domestic life I think that's actually where we get toxic masculinity like none of us can really describe what it is but we can see it when it happens so we learn it right this is something we learn from the world it's something we learned from like TV and and it's maybe something we learned from our dads too tell me about your dad I'm um a first generation kid my dad is from Guyana um grew up in very humble beginnings poor family first time I remember my dad's home he loved me was when I was 17. and he was like saying like he was proud of me um because I was about to graduate high school and things like that you know I'm appreciative of all the other things you know being present as a provider but in terms of like you know the conversation piece and like oh I want to talk to my dad about you know sex or something or I want to talk to my dad about oh this um this person broke up with me and I'm feeling pretty sad about it I didn't have those conversations so it's like emotional language as part of like how you talk to your dads yeah and my definition of manhood came solely from my relationship with God it didn't come from my father it didn't come from the good influences around me is God a man yeah and God is a man and God and God is a father and he's a good father he's a perfect father and so I think there is a clear definition of manhood where I guess that's where I diverge from everyone else in the room I believe manhood is clearly defined by God it is the perfect example of what a man should be Christian I see you not in your head I grew up in a divorced home um when you do grow up in a broken home and you don't have a father in the home you recognize how important sort of both males and females are and raising a child and being in the home there's a balance between you know masculine energy and feminine energy absolutely and I feel like there's um there's both within everybody and so there's a balance that um with masculine energy in itself that I think a lot of people have trouble trying to trying to like reconcile within themselves like yes being a man you work hard you take care of your people but you got to be able to have that emotional side too which is where the feminine energy comes in y'all y'all just like triggered something in my head when I was speaking about having both in the home to me I didn't really have it there and it made me it made me feel a way but I think that I always wanted one and so I wound up at a certain age going outside and trying to find what masculinity was outside and so I went on the corner and there were 20 of us on the corner and none of us had dads we were all messed up and so we all taught each other the wrong way to love to be loved and then I think in society there's way more people like that and a lot of kids who don't have fathers in the home excuse me look for that father in the world or in a different way yeah yeah um well first I think that like attributing like proper Family Values to like a heterosexual couple with children is like just not effective like I think that it's obviously like a heteronormative take to be like man and woman and then a child and that's how you create like a good family whether it's like a single mother single father or like a queer couple like I don't think that it's necessary to like attribute men and women to like certain roles in the household I think that it's only due to nurture those gender Norms that we follow male and female matters God gives you one of those identities you take on that role and now you're responsible for not or for fulfilling that role there's a masculine crisis because men are not taking responsibilities for the god-given roles that they have in society and so when you take away the the need to say God made you this or God made you this now you don't have to take responsibility for not fulfilling what you were called to do when you do that you also take away other things that somebody else may do if I have a woman or a partner that wants to take on certain roles and I say hey those are my rules that God gave me in society now I'm suppressing that person like at the end of the day we're all human beings you define who you are and how you behave under God that's what God gave us free willingness I think that the religious beliefs should not be used to like dictate how other people identify how the people live their lives humans need predictability and when we put each other in these boxes it gives us the opportunity to make decisions quickly and I think that's what we're fighting is as a civilization at the moment is the desire to put seven and a half billion people in specific boxes so that we can have some sort of predictability or or stability in in our lives I was in emotionally abusive young man in in my 20s because I had an idea of what my wife should do and it caused a lot of of stress why were you the way you were you know I had a lot of anger uh I had a lot of uh pent up rage I had you know some combat stress that I had to deal with also that I wasn't dealing with because men don't show emotion there is a social construct that benefits men and so the responsibility that I've learned as I've gotten older is learning how to not enforce my power learning over women over people you're saying that that role gives men more privilege like an advantage and privilege I'm saying that it is more self-sacrificing I do not have free time I do not have hobbies I do not wake up during the day and do what I want to do ever I'm thinking about my wife my kids my business but that's your decision and that's not like like a mandatory thing of your masculinity well if you believe that God is true I don't can you believe that he is God then you do have that responsibility what privileges are you like do you are referring to like what privileges do male do men have we've constructed this entire Society to benefit us break it down like what privileges exactly like we talk about the wage guy or if you look at Roe versus Wade men controlling women's bodies even if there might be those privileges there's also more men who commit suicide more men incarcerated I think when you talk about like incarceration rates and things like that like like things that men are a victim of I think that it's important to like recognize like I don't think that men are oppressed solely on the grounds of their men I think that men like experience oppression based on like the intersections of their identities which is you know why we see like different like lower class jobs being worked by men or like higher suicide rates or like incarceration rates going up because like men like black men Brown men indigenous men queer men trans men etc those people that like face oppression they experience oppression but it's not solely due to their identity as a man but I think I think dating and sex is probably a very interesting place to think about this because it's changing field as far as like what people expect of each other I date in New York City a lot and dating wise there's a lot that's like asked of a man like first dates are like nightmares dude it's like I'm like what do you want they got like a checkbox like are you gonna pick me up are you gonna oh are you gonna walk on the outside of the side while you're gonna open the door you're gonna pull out the seat are you gonna pay for the mail are you gonna be interesting during the dinner are you gonna be funny during the dinners and then when you walk home or you're gonna drop me off you're gonna watch me walk inside and then are you gonna text me after and it's like it's like trying to defuse a bomb like if you think you'd like you're like red wire blue wire and you're like one little thing and you're just done and it's like I'm I'm to the point where I'm like I'm so tired of like paying 150 for a first date and then you just ghost me and the next week I'm like hurting for cash I'm like I could have really used that 150 like why did I have to you know what I'm saying the trade-off of like going on a date and as the man being like oh this sucks I have to pay or as the woman being like oh this sucks I might get murdered it's like a pretty big you know imbalance on a first date should the man or whoever identifies as the man on the date pick up the check show of hands who thinks yes yeah is a weird yes okay sorry sorry how would you put it I very much love gender roles I like masculine men and I want my masculine man to pick the check up my friends seem to be the same my girlfriend seem to want that as well but I have a male friend who was naturally doing that and with the dates he was going on with women they were offended that he like took the check so I think like hey if this woman doesn't want him to pay and she wants to show she can pay go off I think it's a matter of preference like you know if someone picked it up for you like you develop a kind of Rapport respect with that person like so be it if the other person you know the woman you're with doesn't want that then maybe it's not the match for that person so I think it's dependent on the situation but I think that there's such a thing as Financial abuse and Men seeing a lot of time because they spend that woman has to be under them or owes them something um I think that's when you can talk personally I love to take care of my partner I love that feeling that I give them that they're taken care of when they're with me and that's when it's with friends anybody if you're with me I got you like I guess what I'm hearing from you Andre is that there's like a lot of pressure to uh inhabit the masculine side of the social expectation and yet you might not get the benefit that you would have expected Generations ago and that puts you in a weird position yeah well we live in a city where there's eight million people and uh you know a lot of these girls especially if you're really attractive guys are hitting on them all day so they feel like celebrities you got so many options I don't blame you I'd be the same way it becomes like with somebody better I think technology has a big part to do with that now like modern times like online dating well Instagram especially as a girl you're gonna have 30 DMS yeah a day I think that's a that's a bigger reason why it can be tougher for some men not success there's a toxicity to femininity as well there is there is a toxic side to both genders I think anybody can be narcissistic but I think that it's like weird to randomly attribute that to like women in New York because they're being complimented all day there's a term it's cool absolute power corrupts absolutely so it but that is when we talk about masculinity that's what we've had we've typically had that we can do whatever we want and we do it because we squeeze we corrupt we take historically you take over things places that you don't like and you rate the women and you take the gold and you and you know you do what you want because you have that power now when we see women have that power we're like whoa she's literally just getting a taste of the power that men have had for centuries but on the flip side of this perspective of dating of like the poor guy who goes on these dates and gets ghosted and and it's it's a struggle to date on the other side of that is uh men have more sex men cheat more they have more affairs so if I'm a woman and I'm looking for a guy um I would be really selective I would have a list of what I was looking for and the guy would have to meet the those standards then they would be high I think over the last several years the metoo movement has given a lot of insight into what women are feeling in the workplace what they're experiencing how they're being abused and otherwise silenced how institutions of power have kept them silent and we've heard some really awful stories and some terrible I want to hear from you guys what you think about where what the metoo movement did has it gone too far what does it mean for you I think it's good for women to expose men who are doing evil things in the workplace I think it's been a good thing in exposing sexual abuse there's also the opposite side of that coin where where women are allowed privileged to do certain things that men are not so in the workplace I I was working at a place where a woman was grabbing me inappropriately doing things that were inappropriate and when you bring that up to your co-workers you know what they say they laugh and they say you should be excited right so if a man is sexually abused the the stigma totally changes the same thing me too necessarily like is what prevented people from believing you in your story and like your story is valid like I'm not here to suppress that but I do think that like it's worth noting women are far more likely to be victims of sexual assault you just experienced a little bit of weakness that women feel most of the time when we're talking about constructs you know you guys are saying we need to deconstruct masculinity I'm saying there's there are unequal biases with both genders when it comes to it not necessarily being as viewed as valid if that happens to be the case because of other men though you know what I'm saying like other men are the people that downplay that and that's where we come back to the talk of you know patriarchy and things like that was put in place by men and is enforced by men when I went for I went for a walk to get dinner last night now I walk several blocks because I wanted to check out a a few things um and it was dark uh not a single time did the idea that I would be physically or sexually assaulted across my mind not a single time now I can imagine that that doesn't really work out for for women it comes down to biological differences as a man you're more likely to be able to have a more of a chance to fend off someone attacking you as a woman not really so that's why you know we have things like mace and tasers or having a gun is it something about um it's hard to admit that you're a victim yeah for sure for so and to complain about it people look at you like remember Terry Crews you can get his nuts squeezed and right it's like why don't you do something why'd you learn look how the world ridiculed him you know oh you got you ain't do nothing like oh you're a you know so we as men especially super guys that grew up in a super masculine house we don't really like to admit weakness and there's and it's in our language right like don't be a like don't be a like it it's it's very internalized that yeah that's all examples of like toxic masculinity like it's never to invalidate somebody's experience but like like it must be obvious that like these are rule rules and roles enforced by men and created by men well in in toxic masculinity and power kind of go hand in hand I mean we're talking about peanut butter and jellies you know what it is I think sometimes we've got to go to work and like if we're caught complaining about it we're like emitting weakness it's like you're not a man how does that feel it doesn't feel great but that doesn't stop me from doing what I need to do um if you talk about a little bit of pressure that goes with it yeah there's a little bit of pressure if you can withstand it you become a successful man but what does that have to do with being a man like surely like a woman can do all those things so why even attribute it to your gender that's a good point but I think also um if you're talking in terms of biological differences generally men are more logical right more reasoning more I disagree there is no scientific backing for that whatsoever I think I just think it's a commonly used stereotype I mean the talking about okay you guys can say that I think more about me like I'm more of like a logical you know factual based guy like I have emotions um but you know I don't let that deter me from what I need to do like my my reasoning do you talk with people about your emotions a lot I mean I have people I have friends I have close guy friends I can talk to you do yeah there's an interesting uh thing came out where like guys these days have fewer than three friends like it's hard for men to make friends with each other I think that's a big problem now and because a lot of times because you hear about you know the suicide rates going up I think that's a big reason for men aren't allowed to talk about it with safe people so if you talk about masculine crisis that's the crisis right there I think that men find friends very easily in terms of like oh yo you lift um 240 out of 242 let's like to spot each other like basketball whatever but I think that we've we have superficial relationships in those friendships you know in which like it's very like surface level like coming back to what you're talking about we don't talk about feelings and and things like that that comes back to how you know you're brought up and how like Wars are taught in certain ways how we go about talking to each other and how we go about expressing ourselves how much of this is is men putting ourselves in a little box I can tell you uh I wouldn't have shared my emotions with people when I was younger um but I have people in my life now who I feel completely comfortable sharing my insecurities my vulnerabilities you know how I'm feeling that ends up being one of the reasons why men end up with limited friends because I mean how many people can you actually feel like you can be open and honest with but there's something holding there's something holding people back yeah and I think it's us I think we're we're doing it because we're putting ourselves uh in in this masculinity box if you will I think that vulnerability um for men oftentimes of you to surrender and like that is a you know what I mean that's an example of weakness in which like someone can possibly take advantage of it or it used to be viewed as such you know where it's like all right cool like he cried oh that means he's soft so now I can challenge him and this is something that I really struggle with um as a black man that grew up in the hood you couldn't be soft you you couldn't come outside you know what I'm saying so you you had to take on this this Persona in order to be a quote-unquote man as I got older I realized I still had to do that with women I had to be a certain way for them to look at me as a man and if I didn't perform in that manner they also called me a yeah they want a real like right so it's like as Progressive as I may want to be is the world accepting of that on as a whole because even if the guy even if the other men don't like it but the women like it I might be like I don't care what the guys think as long as the women like it but there were spaces where the women will be like look at him he wants a finger on his butt sorry no let's talk about fingers like you know what I'm saying like heat that's the type of guy he's not my type of guy and I can't be open with sex or accepting having gay friends pardon you know that's what you like but I can't right right you can't be open about certain things because then you become questionable and you're pushed out of the safe space you know sex is a difficult thing for for men to talk about even with each other especially if you do have some kind of Kink because you you're not allowed to be vulnerable You're not allowed to be weak you're not allowed to fail and a lot of people that when you say the suicide waste you give up because you have nowhere to turn I kind of disagree with you on the fact about that pressure is causing I think it's more the lack of support and guidance for a lot of guys like they don't know where to turn like they like a lot of guys you know suicide I think is like when you lose hope right so they just don't have hope what about them not wanting to go get it because this place is to be there's people to go you can go to church I mean you can go to therapy but I don't feel like you know when when you say guys don't want to express weakness I think taking that step is a lot is hard for a lot of men because then that expresses weakness it's hard for a lot of guys you know what's interesting that what I'm hearing is that as men you also are victimized by the sexist expectations of masculinity it also makes it um hard for men to uh love themselves um and and love themselves enough to understand that they're in trouble you know and um I know that's something that that happened in my life it was but before I did finally go to therapy and get the demons out that I needed to get out um it took me meeting uh a woman who actually made me want to love myself you found a woman who gave you peace and and changed you a lot while gray if if a man is dating a woman and she doesn't like that he's not masculine enough it's kind of like to me I feel like too bad for him he should go find someone else that's part of the dating scene everyone has things that they like and things that they don't like I feel like your preference is your preference but at like some point I think it's like noteworthy and responsible to like understand where those preferences or like originate not necessarily I think our life experiences uh form what we really want in our dating life and because I grew up in a broken home and I didn't have a man in the house I want a man who gives me security and protection I don't think me deconstructing masculine is going to do that for me I was missing that in my childhood and that's what I wanted a man I tend to diverge from like the Freudian daddy issue stuff when it comes to like congratulations I'm so happy for you I want a man who gives me security thank you I think I think if I'm with a woman and the bad days I've had is when I'm like talking about my problems I'm complaining about something I'm not going to see that woman if I'm projecting more strength and I'm more charismatic I'm positive I'm probably going to see that woman so I think as much as like guys you know you want guys to be vulnerable that doesn't work a lot of times and I think it just comes down to that that's what I'm saying that's what it is that's what I'm saying it sounds like a lot of you are saying that's wrong yeah I didn't think it is what it is I just think that Society teaches you you have to be a certain way and that's really nice and that's my issue because if this is who you are your character right it just blossoms into this person that loves to pay for dates loves to open doors and loves to walk in the house then that's fine but when Society tells you that from a young boy that that's the only way to be as a man this is the only way to be and you think about things like uh say people want to download that that don't want to come out till later because they're scared of societal pressures right you should be able to be whoever you want without Society telling you you have to be this way in order to fit in this box pressure is on like the body like pressure is to be buff to like look good there is a certain pressure I guess you can call it for guys to look a certain way especially if they're trying to attract women so I think it comes down to just men who look a certain way tend to look more competent they can protect I was just going to add on to what you were saying if a guy looks fit if a guy looks strong okay as a girl she's probably thinking if I'm on the street and somebody tries to do something to me I know that he can handle it I also think generally like guys who don't have the body that they're looking for are generally they're not as healthy um it's not just a look thing it's just a health thing yeah you know the body and mind are connected um if someone is strong they're probably going to look strong and they're probably going to feel strong so I think um when you say it's a pressure I think it's it can be construed as a healthy pressure hey get strong be strong because you're going to be a healthier and more mentally fit individual for example I was a gymnast and I think you know the training that I did not only trained in my body but it winded up training my mind and making me a stronger human period as the skinniest person here um I'm pretty skinny she's skinny all right as the seconds no it's like I don't know it's like yeah you do I've had a bunch of girls like friends on me and I'd be like why and they're like you're just too skinny I'd be like damn I mean they kept it or so real I can't that's yeah but I'm trying to say that yeah is saying that there isn't a good and natural connection between like feeling good healthy habits looking good and there's a masculine ideal to that of some sort does anyone disagree with that here I do body and diversity exists across like multiple spectrums and I think that it's unfair to like only attribute like mental fortitude like mental strength to like physical strength not having like a perfectly in-shaped body doesn't necessarily mean you're unhealthy by any means and I also don't think it necessarily means that you like lack mental fortitude I don't think I'm saying that um um to look strong is the only way to be mentally strong um I think as long as you feel like you have a competent physical body I think that's going to benefit your mental health how do you define competence yeah I think in terms of what you're trying to do so if what do you or your student like do you what are your endeavors in life me yes I'm a student athlete okay what kind of what kind of sport I'm a springboard diver okay do you um train to do springboard diving yeah okay and do you feel good when you train and you do well on the springboard yeah I think that's what I mean that's what I'm talking about if you feel confident at the Endeavors you're trying to do I think that's but I think a lot to like non-athletic people who may not be in like like the same physical shape as like an athlete would be who are competent in what they're trying to do because that like action has nothing to do with like they're like so that's where I disagree with you that's why I disagree with you I think some people who don't realize the potential for their physical to blend into their mental is something that needs to be talked about I think it's undervalued it's not that you have to work out to have a confident mind it's that working out does help with competency we already know when you work out endorphins are released people feel better there's so many times I wake up I don't want to go to the gym it's going to be the worst day ever I'm in a bad mood I go my endorphins are released I'm great I'm woken up like we we have the science for that so especially it's not like plays very little we've had presidents in wheelchairs there were very confident successful men who couldn't walk and so I'm going to say that I just I don't like with my stomach when I'm having sex my stomach like is over her butt or whatever like I want to eat less me Paul can change that you're fat we've spent all this time like deconstructing masculinity and all these things but then it seems as though if a woman or someone dating says Hey I want a swole guy Suddenly It's like sorry I don't think that's a societal pressure that's what that woman wants and she's entitled to have but it's context so I also you know I have body type yeah I agree with this like there's I'm not going to say what it is but there's certain girls where I'll go on and I'm like you don't really have the what I'm looking I don't say that because that's the dick but in my head I'm just like ah this isn't gonna work right one thing to have a preference and another thing to make like a sweeping like conclusion and then like broadcast it everywhere no people are entitled to date their preference because when you look at statistics they say that what is it like 70 of CEOs are over the size six foot four for example so there is amongst men a pressure to be bigger and bigger men tend to be in charge and that's proven statistically proven and so there is a pressure for men who are naturally smaller naturally overweight naturally not as fit to become fit or to become bigger oh and every one of us here have heard little man syndrome oh yeah he's got Napoleon syndrome he's got little man syndrome that's the thing though yeah there's nothing you can do about it and that's where that's where it becomes harmful specifically like you know you know short King Spring or whatever like a person I mean you can't like I mean there is like I guess like on Twitter I've seen like oh people getting a surgical procedure to break their legs and add six inches to their height or something like that it's like you know like but like besides that we just like a really expensive procedure which also like comes into social economic background and things like that as well too it's like you literally like you literally can't do anything about that I think that's where it becomes harmful which all right like if there is the pressure in which like I can't date a person or I can't like get a position or I can't do X Y and Z because I'm not a certain height or um something I literally cannot change about myself then what now what is Big Dick Energy it's it's it's when confidence crosses the line of arrogance that's exactly people told me I have bde you have bde yeah people told me I have BDS you did in that background not to show up look at that I think I think bde is like just a confident man I don't think it's an arrogant man I don't find arrogance to be big dick energy I find it to be insecure if you're arrogant you're trying to like I don't there's no I find it's so odd to equate somebody's like the size of their genitals to like the quality of their character like what that's nobody it's like a metaphor but then it comes back now we're getting into like you know a deeper conversation which like some men see you evaluate based off the size of what the game between their legs you know what I mean yeah so like that's why the conversation with big energy comes into into place because people feel as though like you know man that's like you know more that's packing more down there you know I mean it's more like you know one they're better in bed they're like more different people they're exuding a certain energy so that like the state yeah the stereotypes you know so the stereotypes associated with having a big the lack of a need to overcompensate to society because you know you're adequate you know what you've got you walk with confidence because like you can tell when somebody's putting on because they lack in certain in certain ways and Men me and people I know equate manhood and masculinity to their dick size and how much money they got like it's like yo you feel more confident and sometimes that kind of stuff bleeds into violence and you see that in domestic violence situations like men are like the perpetrators of that by and large is there something wrong with masculinity when it becomes violent 100 I also think because of testosterone in a number of different things men are inherently more violent but being able to control it that's yeah it's being able to confess where the responsibility comes in yeah I think you know you hear the whole saying like um it's better it's better to be a warrior in a garden than a gardener in a war and I think there's a lot of wisdom behind that saying oh George Orwell said uh said people sleep peaceably in their beds at night because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf I think that's a that's a big thing but the the key is to be to be ready to have the ability and and also the humility and the confidence um to not use it unless it's absolutely necessary I don't think we teach boys that enough because I think promoting violence is extremely toxic is there something inherently violent about masculinity inherently violent I don't think so I don't think so if a majority of men were bad evil violent a lot of us would not be sitting here today okay we still be in the in the in the in the Stone Age you know I mean that's why I I kind of push back against that that idea that inherently men are violent inherently masculinity is bad it's violent because I don't I don't believe that that's true why do you think that such a vast majority of mass shootings are done by men I think that's a mental health issue I think that and and this is why we're talking about men in crisis yeah because men are more willing to to do what they have to you know to not do what they have to do but to take action in terms of that and that's how we talk about this you know man in crisis a lot of those Mass Shooters are males because a lot of males if they don't know how to have an outlet or to find Outlets to to talk about what what their issues are that's what it comes down to we know that these Mass Shooters most of them are white males we know that so when I talk to to a lot of white males that are that have traditional value say or maybe a traditional upbringing they feel like they've been made to be the villains of society and so I feel that pressure a lot of times I feel like hey like when we're having this conversation even I hear words like patriarchy traditional uh Society right so I feel like I'm being put in a box and and made to be the villain and I hear this from a lot of white males I feel like I'm the bad guy I feel like I'm the villain so maybe at some point mentally they're breaking and becoming that villain they're becoming that monster that they've been made out to be be the exception if you're worried about being put into a box that is one that is like clearly harmful based on like what people are doing then don't do that Master dress is like obviously like a sensitive topic but a lot of them are like men with like little to no friends who like go out in like a burst of Rage commit like atrocities and I don't think that it has to do with how they're hardwired as men they think that it has to do with how Society like treats people like that I agree with you on the point that men need support and they need someone to to talk to and talk about these issues I don't think that men have been taught emotional intelligence throughout life right we know so we respond with anger all right if I'm disappointed if I feel resentment or feel contempt or I feel embarrassment or I feel jealous or any of these things that pull under that one thing we respond with one way and if we learn how to communicate better if we were able to say yo you know what I resent that you spoke to me that way or you know I feel jealous you know whatever if it was okay for men to express those things we wouldn't feel the need to just go you know what you you can take any two three-year-olds you take a three-year-old boy and a three-year-old girl I have two girls you know their first instinct is to lie to me to manipulate me to to say their sister said this when she didn't I have a friend that has all boys you know what they do they throw a fire truck at your head bam that's a natural response that's not a learned behavior they're they're talking about that's totally a learned behavior and you give kids only like cars and gun and GI Joe action figures and give girls Barbie dolls like you I don't think you could say it's one or the other I think there is some interplay between both thank you guys for your honesty your like willingness to go to uncomfortable places willingness to debate one another yeah I'm interested to see like what sticks with me like in days to come after after our conversation because I think so many things were raised in such sort of a diverse perspective group thanks for having us oh thank you yeah we should have discussed the importance of handshakes you guys had a masculinity is something I think that's misunderstood you know I had some people agree with me and disagree with me the entire thing is uncomfortable and my favorite part oh oh that's hard um agreeing to disagree with certain other people and I liked when things turned into like this weird conversation about daddy issues y'all got my number when you gonna do another one what was I figuring when the conversation went to buttholes what answer that [Music]

Channel: VICE

Views: 2,527,619

Keywords: documentary, documentaries, docs, interview, culture, lifestyle, world, exclusive, independent, underground, videos, journalism, vice guide, vice.com, vice, vice magazine, vice mag, vice videos, film, short films, movies, love, sex, politics, violence, suicide, mental health, men, god, patriarchy, gender, Support, dating, gender roles, masculinity, Identity, Male, gender norms, toxic masculinity, #MeToo, Fathers, Liberals vs conservatives, debates, big dick energy, masculine, fatherless, gender confines, expectation

Id: 9nE3EQEBzc0

Length: 43min 15sec (2595 seconds)

Published: Wed Jan 11 2023

Reddit Comments

[u/Prodigy195]

Ok finished the entire thing.

• The former Marine's point about humans wanting to put other people in boxes so we can more easily identify and understand how to engage with them was solid.  I do think that is a key part of the struggle men are having. Men want to get outside those boxes but are scared of the ridicule and potential backlash they will face from society. And not only scared of the potential ridicule/backlash, scared to even admit they're scared of potential ridicule from others. It's like deeply suppressing any fear of anything.

• The guy in the cowboy hat stances are basically encompassing a lot of the things I see wrong with how men are viewed in society.  "I don't have free time, I don't have hobbies, I don't wake up in the day and do what I want to do, ever".  That's an unbelievably sad statement yet he's saying it almost as if it's a point of pride.  We shouldn't shoehorn men into this role of workhorses who's purpose in life is the work/provide for his family and then eventually die. We can and should have desires and goals that are just for ourselves. I've had some men question me when I refer to my wife as my "partner" asking why I call her partner.  The main reason why is because I'm intentionally showing that we're equals carrying the load both fnancially and domestically.  We both make good salaries to pay bills, we both handle stuff with our kid, and both keep up the house as best as possible.  We're partners in everything so that neither of us gets to a point where we feel like we don't have free time, don't have hobbies and can't wake up and do what we want to do at least a day or two out of the week. That should never be the case for a man in a relationship.

• "As progressive as I want to be, is the world accepting of that as a whole?". I think I most closely identified with the guy who said this in the video (the black guy with the jean jacket top and camo pants), at least at that part.  I'm a black man who grew up in a 95%+ black area and the way he described HOW you had to act hit home. Gotta be hard, gotta be ready to fight over any disrespect, can't be soft ever.  You can't just be you.  I'll watch football/basketball religiously but I also watch HGTV consistently.  I do BJJ/MMA but I also love to bake cookies and cakes.  Now that I'm an older adult I feel much more comfortable doing whatever the hell I want but growing up and even up to probably college age, I felt the need to perform certain ways of masculinity and suppress/hide things from people that would potentially get me judged by others.

[u/DeathToPennies]

Much of this “debate” takes for granted the existence of some archetypal masculinity, and it seems to generally be plagued by the same issues many of us MensLib guys face. While the most conservative participants here don’t hesitate to define manhood, the ones more willing to engage with the idea of toxic masculinity struggle for the words.

I thought this would be a good post for us to discuss, not just so we can attempt to answer some of the topic questions together, but also so that we can formulate effective means of communicating our vision to the “traditionalists” who would write us off as simply being anti-man.

[u/spaceman_spifffff]

I will say overall, I was really surprised by how well the discussion went. A lot of conversation treating gender as an abstract amorphous construct that traps and snares all people in different ways. Even the more “traditional” guys agree to that mostly. Not too much wasted on anti trans talking points I which I expected.

The black man wearing the denim jacket in the front’s point about women enforcing gender roles on him and making him feel like he cannot dance a specific way in these scenarios was a very good moment. I think there needs to be more men describing these experiences if we are going to make progress removing the power gender has in society today.

[u/Prodigy195]

Ok I'm only like 20 secs into the video and this is unrelated but $150 for first dates?

I'm 36 and haven't dated in over a decade but is it no longer expected to grab like coffee for a first date? People are going to outright nice sitdown dinners?

EDIT: Also realized that Hershel Walker's son Christian, who is one of the most peculiar/inconsistent commentators I have seen online is on this panel. Part of me things he's a poor representative for this conversation but also part of me thinks having a gay man with a father like Hershel Walker is probably a perspective that is hard to find.

[u/akebonobambusa]

I have been watching that old show My So Called Life. There is an episode, maybe 11 maybe episode 12, where they explore toxic masculinity but since it was made in the mid 90's they don't call it that.

The show is completely framed from a teenage girls point of view. And in most of the episodes it is exactly that. But in this one they go and explore the males in the show and their participation in it.

The dad is dealing with his wife being the breadwinner and him trying to start a career that has something to do with cooking. Jared Leto is upset that he is falling in love with Angela because his friends consider her the weird girl. The neighbor boy is struggling with what today we might call being an incel because he almost sees Angela as his because he has known her for so long. Ricky is pretty confident with being gay but he is very worried about fitting the stereotype when the new English teacher wants him to be in the drama club. The English teacher himself is uncertain about being a leader to the kids and being a role model.

The english teacher brings the show to its climax when he tells Ricky no one should be ashamed of who they are. Then he brings into class a sonnet where Shakespeare talks about how he is falling in love with a girl that by all accounts is ugly. He describes her features and the words used are not flattering, her hair is wire like, etc. But what Shakespeare concludes is that the reason he falls for her rather than a super model Venus figure is because the girl he is falling for is real. The myth is just that a myth the girl in front of him is real.

I bring all this up because for one, especially the older men on the panel here, grew up in that time and were exposed to all those ideas. This deconstruction of what it means to be a man has been a topic of conversation and has been evolving for a very long time. From the 90's...from Shakespeare's time.

One of the definitions to define someone as a man in regards to a boy rather than a woman, should be accepting the world for what it is not what you imagine it to be. Because you can only then work to change the world for the better. In that episode of My So Called Life the strange flip was that all the female characters knew who they were they were very confident in what they want and what they are. The men in that episode were lost and wandering trying to find exactly who they really are, not who they, or the women they are involved with, imagine who they are, or dream of what they will become.

it was an interesting 30 year old fictional exploration. So much flannel though...on everyone.

[u/Sharlach]

I saw this on my youtube feed and figured it'd be shared here as well. Still working my way through it, and so far, I agree with the NB one a lot, but they're being unnecessarily antagonistic and the comment about women getting murdered is not a counterpoint to the guy complaining about paying for dates. Women are scared to be murdered, we know! Is that why men have to pay? Is that the deal we've reached, are men supposed to pay because women are scared of being murdered? Clearly not, and shoehorning in whataboutisms like that while men are discussing issues is exactly how younger guys get turned off of feminism in the first place.

Only one worse is the Jesus freak. And Christian Walker threw me for a loop, wasn't expecting him.

[u/bigboymanny]

I just got to the part where there talking about dating and I just wanted to make an aside. I'm a young, feminine bisexual twink. Getting constant sexual advances doss not make you feel like a celebrity, it feels kind of gross. Like people are trying to exploit your lack of experience and body for their own gain. Especially bc alot of the guys who make advances are almost double my age. I imagine most young women have similar experiences and feeling about it.

[u/kilgoar]

Small gripe, Griffin was really bumming me out. I've been to men's support groups, and they work best when men can be open and vulnerable, and non-judgemental. Griffin may have spouted all the current buzz-words, but they were absolutely putting down a lot of experiences.

"I don't mean to undermine your experience, but this statistic..." "I just want to say that having to do a lot doesn't compare to being murdered as a woman"

Also, their constant faces when people would talk killed me. Like, someone says something and they just looked perplexed, or annoyed, or bemused, or smug. I would rather not say anything than have someone visibly react to what I say like I was an idiot.

I was glad when Christian stood firm and said "I don't need to deconstruct why I want a masculine man. I do and I'm okay with that".

If men are going to be supportive of each other, we have to go in without trying to be perfect in our presentation, and really focus on acceptance and empathy.

[u/WesternIron]

Watched the opening clip, already, misinformation.

Women are more likely to get murdered by someone they know, not by a stranger. Its the same for rape/violent crime.

It's the opposite for men.

Yah, you are probably not going to get murdered on the first date.