Should Creationism Ever Be Taught In Schools?

uh well back in the fifth century st. Augustine had no trouble understanding the creation story in Genesis as allegory rather than historical fact but today sixteen centuries later after Darwin's discoveries the scientific conquest of space and the unraveling of DNA some religious people still insist children should be taught creationism as fact should creationism ever be taught in schools right professor Andy McIntosh if you're a creationist let the real question Nicki I'm not asked you oh geez the real question is and should it should you be teaching I know you're a young earth creationist as well so you think it's in thousands rather than millions or billions of years the earth why should we be teaching biblical fable rather than proven science well you've loaded the question the problem is if you actually look at the alternative the natural bedfellow of of evolution is atheism not everybody of course is an atheist I'm not saying that but the natural bedfellow of evolution is atheism so we have to decide is there going to actually are we going to separate the facts from the interpretation that's the important issue here we need to have a level playing field Nicky not everybody obviously is going to agree with my position but we need to look at the science without this loaded interpretation which says you must always interpret it using a naturalistic framework how do we come to be how did mankind come to be nothing to damned if that must be dealt with in the religious knowledge issues that obviously every position has philosophical implications right that could be dealt with in the religious knowledge class nothing to do nothing to do with a insight nothing to do with ape-like creature Nicky let me just make my point in the science we need to look at the science carefully and we need to separate interpretation from facts so that we can look at the facts carefully and understand where people are coming from nobody comes to the facts without baggage that includes the evolutionist the evolutionist tries to deny this he says oh we don't come with baggage but actually the natural baggage they come with not everybody has this view but the natural inclination is towards atheism professor professor professor bombo's kiraku you're a geneticist I am yes and what's your baggage well my baggage is I was brought up as a Greek Orthodox Christian and but I still teach evolution to university students and if you ask whether creationism should be taught in schools my answer is yes but you package it up with other improbabilities like in the Christian Church Jesus walking on water feeding the 5,000 and the raising Lazarus from the dead these improbabilities should be packaged into something we call religious knowledge we cannot let this kind of thought contaminate biology and biology is a rational science there's no theory of evolution is any other there is a theory of gravity evolution is a fact it is supported by by hundreds thousands that's not to say that you can't have people doing evolution experiments who are religious I mean I have PhD students in my own laboratory who are doing evolutionary experiments but they're still religious that's fine that's their views but we should not be teaching children in schools creationism as if it is fact there is not a shred of evidence I can I can bugger off so here there's nothing it David I know you want to come in as well there's not a shred of scientific evidence but you believe the earth is about six between 6,000 and 10,000 years old I mean the dog was domesticated 15,000 years ago okay my current research is actually interview but this whole issue at a practical level in the classroom what it actually means for example to be a creationist pupil in in a typical secular school what it means to be an evolutionist pupil in a typical Christian school and that is the level at which we should be considering this I just want to give you a little story and I hope you would give me time to say because this debate is happening at the wrong level say that there's a science class going on now I'm sure it wouldn't be true in this particular school that we're situated in at the moment but this could be a very typical scenario in many schools the teacher says right we're going to be studying evolution now evolution is a theory of origins but actually it's not really a theory it's so supported by the overwhelming evidence that it's effectively a fact for example the overwhelming evidence from the fossils supports what Darwin taught now somebody puts their hand up please miss now this is a young woman rag or teenager from a Christian creationist background and says and she would say excuse me miss I've I hear that the other people interpret the fossils differently now this is what could well happen immediately that she is subjected to abuse but what she says is what if she says the moon is made of cheese because I'm talking about these pupils I'm involved in research which shows that pupils in this scenario are very very badly affected because they are expressing something that's very important to them and what will typically happen or don't about typically what will often happen next is that and I've been subject to this sort of thing myself is that you then get a lot of personal abuse so another teacher might well say finish please no we've got to let other people talk with every yeah we've got to let the the conversation evolve David David following the the professor's earlier comments I'm not too certain to my natural bedfellows are some of them may be atheists and some of them may not be atheist the point is there are some people that still believe that the earth is balanced on the back of an elephant there were some people that still believe that the earth is flat but do we actually teach that do we actually suggest that to young people as you said rightly said Nicky some people might believe that the moon is made of cheese some people believe might perhaps that the Sun still goes around the earth as they did for a time but we know that that's just not true anymore for as much as we know that the Battle of Lee as much as we know the Battle of Hastings as much as not really well I'm sorry sorry the lady want to carry on speaking it was the lady was a gentleman was it one sorry right some people might think the Battle of Hastings was in 1266 but we don't actually teach that we teach it in people want to believe in the privacy of their own home in the privacy of whatever religion they practice they're free to do that but to teach young people things that we know are not true is tantamount to an abuse of young people in a situation come back see please okay moving it on the abuse goes both ways because there is a listen we're done would you come in here there's the imam at a mosque in East London who has studied science and studied the science of evolution if you let me finish and has concluded that evolution is perfectly compatible with the Koran and he's got a load of abuse I mean you've called him an upper State he said he's abandoned apostasy he's abandon his faith for which you believe is a capital crime and under Sharia you think there should be the death sentence for that but you've taken your children you home educate them so they yes they don't learn the the awful calamy that we may well be descended from ape-like creatures once again you're making a very load of comment before you ask your question but you're first of all you've got to look at the fact that to any practicing believe of any faith his scripture is fact now we recognize other people do not accept that as fact we realize that yeah and we realize that they may have other viewpoints based upon their viewers upon Scripture and based upon reality so to Muslim the Quran is fact yeah and so therefore to say that somehow a religious person is illogical is irrational it's not actually true because they just have a different set of things that they consider to be true facts in the same way you will have some scientific disciplines disagree with others yeah so admit let me finish my point yeah so we're having a school you have what we as poor people are asking for is that those people that do choose to send their children to a school yeah the dog home educate they don't send them to a a religious school or whatever that when their children are taught and when the young adults there are taught that they are told that there are alternative theories that yes there is a body of evidence which supports this particular theory but other people really differently I mean I when our used to be an atheist many years ago yeah what this lady was talking about actually happened to me when I was studying applied biology at University I was I was basically shouted down by a lecturer because I suggested that there might be alternate average your smile you are a man you are a man of firm opinion I mean on your on your website you said number of things you say for example that let me see now men without when without men without beards look like you also say that you saw called a yes well you say that yes you also say that you support this stoning of somebody for adultery and in Somalia and you praise the Taliban as well so your James abroad you want to come in here oh well in defense he wouldn't get invited on to programs like this if he didn't post nonsense like that on his website so we are all we are all in a way complicit in the pushing of the extremist envelope but but to return to creation no he's easy attempt to be Faraci he's very relevant because he's piled a load of abuse on to the Imam in in London in East London have been leading the charge and my personal problem with that is is is I think we all bear some responsibility for the with the greatest of respect so for taking you seriously and and that is why you have been that is why you have the talent to influence decent men like the Imam in the East London Moscow has been in receipt of really quite frightful threats I'm sure not you can use but to talk about creationism for a moment and just to address our creationist friends if a child turns up at school and receives bullying for believing a lie the blame lies with the person who has told in the lives not the person who I have been is Peggy finished that the issue of baggage on the journey of scientific discovery you display for a professor a frankly staggering ignorance of the facts everybody from Copernicus to Google Galileo to Darwin all struggled with an immense legacy of a judeo-christian system they were almost dismayed and disgusted by their discoveries but they saw that they were fact Galileo got excommunicated may these people face heresy accusations they face death threats but the facts aren't afraid were much more important than clinging to a notion that makes sense of like you and then I will let you come back in the top of Darwin first of all first of all I think was received from James as the sneering attitude I apologize for that it's a steam attitude I apologize it's a fuzz ladyboys for somebody who doesn't go a beer it frankly is it I don't know James's got a beard so he's alright my comment he's gonna finish my comments yeah uh without further ado cool hopefully yeah if you that particular comment was related to Muslims obviously a normal thing that's up to him how he keeps himself here but there's a Muslim we are told to keep a bit as a Muslim it's up it's a choice whether you grow up grab it or not to go condemning people hungry and calling people non-muslims well again there's a big tradition of respect for difference of opinion with an Islam so to go around allowable wait a minute why Katherine is is it is LOM used to be at the very forefront of scientific debate I'm sure there's no conflict between science and Islam and if we look at the history Muslim scientists made a huge contribution to science for medicine to astronomy and I think we need to reclaim that that heritage and uh with the incident of this Imam all the mainstream big Muslim organizations came out and condemned the threats and abuse when intimidation will no vet let you you were making threats I meant no threats against I'm on what their own hero Nikki look me I've got my pointer wait a minute sure sure I'm gonna make my point here there was no fresh what was explained was that this man had a pasta catered yeah and that if he had been under a Sharia law state everything sure okay is not nobody suggested any violence its money help headed people out there who might have Christina reso I will come to you right after we've heard from Christina Christina I just feel that that should this be taught in schools well yes but never in a science class taught it it should be taught in religious education as precisely the way not to read the Bible and not to interpret the first chapter of Genesis which is one of my favorite passages and it and it's about truth it the truth is about a beautiful picture of God's involvement with with the world and this loved this beautiful attitude but to teach it as scientific fact is tantamount to abusing people's minds but that but there is no conflict between rigorous science as this lady was saying and under and a certainly my own Christian faith and I know many theologians who are also astrophysicists and you know I sit there and I watch Brian Cox explaining and it's so exciting learning about and also there are many Christians many Christians who read evolution and I think the science is just magnificent it is when something it is the grandeur and the majesty of it deepens their faith absolutely so really did did did the Chihuahua come from the wolf listen I have to biology degrees I studied biology on your notes you'll know the answer to a question yeah it's did it yeah definitely creationist have no problem with that no no problem of that whatsoever right and that highlights one of these I've heard incredible untruths here this morning and one of them is that modern science began through people who were resisting Christianity it was the exact reverse this is very easy to find as I say I only have one degree but that's the opposite of what I said but me it was people who believe the Bible who and who were affected by it to establish modern science they were creationists when I was at university this was recognized that's what I said you're asking for is that a level playing field a level playing field where the evidence can be discussed and we also want rigor because you at the moment evolution cannot be questioned that is very dangerous just as the opposite view is also dangerous I accept that why did you go either to genome when it was decided montage your question is why did the genome when it was discovered absolutely mirror the Tree of Life that had been mapped out about paleontology by biologists and that carefully it doesn't but look what we have here what we have here sorry what we have here is a debate we need to therefore reflect that in our education institution public universities in our caucus we live in a rational world over the last few hundred years since medieval times but people started to do experiments they've questioned God they've questioned creationism and what they've come to through through through lots of work lots of labor they've come to the realization that we live in a rational world that can be explained scientifically there is no need anymore to invoke this higher power this intelligent design of this God whatever you might sub there is no requirement because then you get into this you get into this argument well leave in a ruse designed the design from Christianity it's infinite mirrors Naomi oh obviously religious myths should not be taught in science lessons they are not comparable and you don't believe in evolution you accept it it's a fact the real danger actually can't swear you have state-funded or even private religious schools where they are allowed to teacher very very narrow a religious curricular these people dangers it can be when you are not given alternatives so technique ages weekly dangerous Wyoming is that prospect primary schools in this country are not required to teach evolution of science so even a primary level particularly some religious schools children can be not being taught evolution in science and then also being taught instructed in these sort of creationist young-earth limits which are complete myth they are not science and there is no grounding in them and that's a really dangerous thing it's really bad for young people in this country not to have the opportunity to learn about different types of these and also what a scientific theory is this stuff be taught in science classes I don't think in science classes I do think in religious classes and I think what is so important is we've been missing the point about what the implications all of this we want children to grow up as adults who respect each other who understood women to understand where each other come from if we actually say we will not teach one belief in schools you know why why stop there why stop there why not then teach about Hinduism or you know Sikhism or Islam you're imposing a moral value and it ended with his belief in reincarnation I think we should teach all beliefs I think we should we should actually give children knowledge so that they can then decide for themselves what they believe as they grow if they don't understand each other that is a recipe for a divided and a broken society the Royal Society motto is nullius in verba that is on the word of no one I believe that is what we should have since sick since the 1600s when the Royal Society was set up they basically said look hands-off with lots of philosophical baggage let us let the evidence lead that's what we are asked yes that's what's happened not what is had on his face so much is happening what's happened is is through a hundred years of experimentation the genome doesn't does reflect the map of Life salute I mean of course it does you take any gene and that reflects the truth that spambot remove an only bambbles view it's not only my bosses use 99.8 of some percent of scientists in the world good enough disagree the point is you know if you have faith you have faith that's what it is yes in evolution it's it's faith and faith is being so gullibility because it means that you're not questioning it means you're not looking at the available evidence and not looking at the available scientific evidence and if you don't look at the available scientific evidence that you're not questioning enough you have faith faith is different the availeth is different from having a scientific backing to what you believe there's any what sermon what is the what is for you that the killer fad that will make us all think Oh actually maybe information and at the what we imagined genome because modern paleontology is not material no we mean it was updated phone this is not the chemicals which is actually governing what's going on it's actually the arrangement of the letters the nucleotides if we want to go into detail and that information is non material everything is pointing to a non material intelligence now we have to go to the religious knowledge class to discuss that but the science clearly has a signpost saying there is a god but I think what happens as science progresses religion and faith contracts into the space left by science clearly science content everything but we can explain a lot more today than we could ten years I'm explaining I'm a ten years later ten years from mistake would explain more because religion and faith will contract and contract into those spaces but sighs it's a not next David David the reality of God is not dependent upon whether you believe in creationism or whether you believe in a vice-versa you know that that's that's a false dichotomy that's a false trail completely from a religious education point of view I'd even be very careful Christina about actually bringing creationism into that except actually enabling people to have some understanding of biblical criticism the origin of biblical books per se how they came to be written and what they came to be written for but I don't even know why we're having this debate because as I said earlier I was no agency well it's almost like saying that you know the Battle of Hastings took place in 1266 you know we know that we know as far as we have as much detail that we were able to access that the universe came into being about 13.7 billion years ago we know that we have fossils that extend beyond five to ten thousand years ago and it isn't just a matter that we descended from from apes it's a matter of how the whole evolutionary processes work and some of us would like to say that there is a God don't mention too that it reflects the beauty of creation and the beauty of sign grandeur in the majesty of it yes very much indeed I'd have to say I disagree with this my back's absolutely killing me cuz I've only been walking upright for a few million years for you and I would vote you of course your scientific knowledge but I don't see a religion and science as foes I see them as friends because what ultimately what both religion and science are interested in is the truth about it and they come at different ways and I think they can help one another and as someone who has a faith I get very excited reading about the discoveries that you make so please carry on being a scientist but don't say that it makes my faith shrink it's perfectly possible like john john paul ii he even is perfectly by a specific country many religious people look at the evolution and it deepens their faith because they save the grandeur the majesty the subtlety the miracle if you like of that is just amazing we are where we are but how we got there is an incredible process and you know that better than anyone and religious people have got every right to be able to say that is fantastic and you know god might not have been there all the way through because we have design faults clearly but he was working through evolution that's a perfectly rational rational religious position he says the natural friend of Darwinism is atheism it is not David it's not is it awesome no Darwin I rejoice in the theory of evolution because I don't even think it's just a theory I believe it to be scientific fact and I'm not an atheist otherwise I wouldn't be in the job that I'm in well this is thank you very much indeed you may have something to say about that debate log on to bbc.co.uk/topgear Birmingham and Croydon during May the full details are on our web page

Channel: Tr3Vel0cita

Views: 635,662

Keywords: tbqs, creationism

Id: kaV6uIC6t1A

Length: 23min 30sec (1410 seconds)

Published: Fri Feb 03 2012

Reddit Comments

[u/I_read_a_lot]

A lot of people in this show need to visit a psychiatric ward soon.

[u/Beliskner]

A fun to watch video.

Thanks for posting.