Is Britain a Christian country?

post-school I'm Nikki camel right Christianity or the lack of it I sit the headlines well nearly every day this week at the Vatican Baroness Varzi attacked militant secularism the Queen Weyden she defended the Church of England's role in national life and on the radio Richard Dawkins appealed to God our first big question is Britain a Christian country professor Dawkins says we overestimate the number of Christians in Britain and give the faith too much influence in public life there is still a huge gap between the number of people who need a life-saving organ transplant the number of organ donations each year 3 people a day die on the waiting list so the British Medical Association is asking for a debate about previously contentious even illegal methods of increasing the supply of organs our second big question should it be easier to harvest organs for transplant sue Burton's son's organs saved or improve the lives of at least six people but she thinks the new proposals for more active intervention are concerning welcome everybody see the big questions go back in 2001 when the last census the last published census was taken 71 percent of us declared ourselves to be Christians yet we know the churches are pretty empty on Sunday mornings a new survey published this week by the Richard Dawkins Foundation found that the majority who call themselves Christian do not actually practice the faith in any meaningful sense is Britain a Christian country and Richard your foundation was an abscessed Mori poll and it polled people who put Christian on the on the census but what was interesting about it is to a greater or lesser extent whether it be sort of evangelical all the way through to vague belief 78% said that they believed in God that's quite high isn't it the poll that we commissioned was done by Maury which as you know is a very respectable organization and so it can be attributed to Maury rather than to rather than to us the first thing that the poll showed was that the number of people who call themselves Christian has dropped from 72% I think it was in the 2001 census to 54% now then the margin of error might be plus or minus 2 when the final census figures comes out so that's already a dramatic drop in the number of people who call themselves Christian what was more interesting in a way was when we looked further at what those 54 percent remember when I wiped out all all the people who don't call themselves Christian at all these are the census Christians we call them the census Christians when we look at them even they are not in many cases really Christian in the sense that most of the Christians here would for example recognize I suspect and of course they're absolutely free to call themselves Christian if they wish totally free country you can label yourself anything you like what worried us and what still worries us is that if you label yourself Christian then the numerical strength that you add to the Christian figure may then be used by a much our constituency of Christian who will then argue oh well the country is so so many percent Christians therefore we need bishops in the House of Lords and so on so I I want to dispel a misunderstanding which we're not telling Christians you are or are not a true Christian it's up to you whether you're a true Christian but beware of using the ammunition of the percentage number of Christians even though it's now dropped from 72 to 54 beware of using that figure as ammunition for pushing through really strong narrowly defined Christian values when the number when most of the people are in large majority of the people who tick themselves Christian actually don't support those Christian measures but if they say they're Christian in some sense whether it be in it sir you know it's a broad Church as no Richard it's a very broad let's let's the believability I know I understand what you're saying but if they say whether whether they be evangelical or vague you know Christians and it's not what we have in this country we have a kind of a gentle Christianity I mean it's not a theocracy it's not a day is it a danger to ask the precise point that we're trying to you know make that if you boldly ask people on the census are you Christian then you embrace this broad church of people to say oh well I feel I'm a good person I better take the Christian box well that's insulting to Muslims and Jews for a start so how is that informing a policy in a detrimental and dangerous and it's the way it forms policy because time and again politicians after the last census have justified Christian policies christian inspired policies and things like the prenta six reserved seats for bishops in the House of Lords by saying oh well the 2001 census showed that 72% of the country is Christian we must respect them of course we must respect their right to call themself Christian but why not ask them whether they support bishops in the House of Lords and they don't or the resurrection or the virgin birth or and all yes yeah yeah okay what Cole Morton this having quite a lot it would be strong words this week from showing this debate and - Farsi last week referring to MIT this week militant secularists saying they're deeply intolerant using was like you know Stalinist and and totalitarian you've called Richard in your book the the Ayatollah of atheism that not sure if you're aware of that which because I didn't hundred the why is the slightest challenge of the slightest quite not you know challenged by question research indeed research seen as militant no I absolutely right I will let Baroness varsity fight fight in the way that she does and that and that's fine in relation to what I said in the book that was in reaction to a specific moment that I saw I've seen professor Dawkins behave in a way that seems to me to be very similar to the way that I've seen religious fundamentalists perform in meetings and in the way they conduct themselves in public and I want and you know perhaps that was over the top in the book but actually the point is that he I'm sorry professor I think you're a brilliant scientist but I think you let yourself down by behaving like a fundamentalist and I find that distress when was a lot of time I throw a bomb tonight I get you in a minute Richard right the I swear was the last time he threw a bomb well rather than an intellectual ball but can we go can we talk about that this the survey your introduction said that these people did not practice Christianity in a meaningful way was meaningful enough for them to put down on the form that they were Christian now on the basis of a poll I think is a thousand people professor Dawkins is dismissing and largely irrelevant and those are the words that he used the the the belief system of by his statistics more than half the population now where what else the poll shows is that we are still a nation whether or not we're a post Christian Post imperialist nation whether we're throwing off the kind of Christianity that dictated us for five hundred years I'm finding a new way forward in a multi-faith world we're still a country that very firmly and emphatically has some kind of engagement and fascination with God and with spirituality um wasn't that exactly what I said now who feel an engagement with with Christianity so you tick the Christian box absolutely fine I feel a good person so I'm going to tick the Christian box but when we went on to say when you are faced with a moral dilemma do you turn to your religion for moral guidance only ten percent said yes so the whole point is that the people who tick the Christian box entirely welcome to take the Christian box of course they are not denying them that that that right but don't use those figures to justify much narrower Christian policies when you come to make government decisions that's all we're saying more about your Morris in a minute Kristina but I did that I want you to address this this type of militancy you know and because it is a little bit of a backlash towards you then it's a it calls nothing to do with it but there's an article in The Telegraph this morning they've done a kind of who do you think you are on you yeah and they found out that one of your great-great great-great-great-great- whatever ancestors was a slave owner and they've gone aha you may be amazed at what's been going on this week one after another I mean this this one in this in the Telegraph is just the best just the latest I really feel we're rattling their cages when you feel the need when a telegraph reporter feels the need to retaliate by going back 300 years to an ancestor of mine I think he was my great great great great great grandfather who owned slaves in Jamaica I mean how desperate can you get if instead of listening to the argument you say oh he's great-great-great great-grandfather by the slaves to the best of my knowledge this is neither a smear tactic nor a retaliation for anything it was a story that somebody found out and they printed it in the paper I'm not involved in that story and I can't comment on it but to the best of my knowledge there is no sense of a smear tactic or retaliation but I have to admit working for the Telegraph as I do Oh Telegraph for trial we were rather amused by the fact that professor Dawkins has often talked about how religion enslaves humanity and and it was interesting to see that he comes from a family that used enslaved people too but that was what worked in the article then well no idea yesterday yeah I'd say that it was amusing when we discovered but Christina we're all more related to each other in this in this room than he is diligence about their actions but what's interesting about you know this is a political debate yeah well as a religious one and rich has made that point very powerfully these figures are be used in a political way is this a Christian country - I'll come back that one sectors make a point about the slavery issue because for Rochester you know spoken out in defence of the Christian country but I think that we abolish the slave trade forgetting of course that bishops were well the the one of the agencies of the judgment was branding slaves bishops were supporting the commercial trade and I think what we've got is a situation where neither side in this debate is being realistic about the history you know accepting the mistakes of the past recognizing that religion had a good part to play but also a terrible part to play and so did secularism as well is this a Christian country this Chris this country has never been a Christian country I don't think it is Jonathan in terms of well let's take our definition controversially as the values of Jesus Christ why don't we and you're a Christian country really endorsing the values of Jesus Christ come on what would it look like we're to endorse the values of Jesus Christ well we might forgive our enemies a little bit more we might have a more equal society we might not encourage a capitalist system which makes people compete against each other and work Cristina again I think it's a Christian country and it should stay a Christian country why is it really but by Christian country I mean that everything from the language we use every day comes from the Bible the church we walk past on our street is that is a part of the Christian culture um charity all the old all kinds of institutions from hospitals to orphanages to schools were founded by churches so our culture is definitely a Christian culture background where's Dana but not necessarily Christian let's take you know part of our you know the rich man in his castle the poor man at his gate the Lord God made them high and lowly each to his estate was an endorsement of medieval feudalism it was an endorsement of you know keeping inequality as it is does not just like that's religious I still don't even yes I was written by a Victorian lady there's an expression of her values it was expression of religious values but I would say not Christian values you need to make a huge distinction between the two could the two are not the second Oh Jonathan I think that as I said we have a culture that is Christian and it comes in what would completely um confounded Richard Dawkins was that he thought we were textbook Christians you know that we knew which was the first book in the Bible we knew with the first five books of the Old Testament recall no that's not the kind of Christians we are we are everyday Christians and it informs our every life and it means that we do believe in charity and we do believe in helping others and we do believe in turning the other cheek much much more than if we were a totally secular culture I didn't think anything I asked it sauce mori to find out research research is not preconception you know Andrew I mean actually a humanist actually that's not what the research shows at all it doesn't show that people live their lives as if Christianity is the cultural wallpaper it it shows quite the opposite it shows that although they tick Christian is a sort of cultural box and the most commonly given reason in the show is because their parents are religious or because they were Christians a sort of heritage attachment actually Christianity forms very little of the of the common sense of their lives well I can I like tonight is not they're calling this open I know this is employ people for example can I put the same Cara grote because in any you can run it if I'm a primary see he said recently he said he described Britain just as just as just out a Christian country and he said the Bible has helped give Britain a sense of values that has made Britain what it is today mmm what do you think about statement well I think that Christianity has contributed to the formation of culture in this country but it's not the only fact that is contributed pre you know it depends when you start the story of course if you start the story it when this country became Christian crystallized at the beginning if you started earlier you with the Romans and Greeks if you start it later with the secular enlightenment so it's artificial arbitrary to some extent way start the story lots of influences have have shaped us and but I think the more interesting question is actually why politicians are suddenly seeming to be breaking out over saying that we're a Christian country and I think that that's that that's the real question when it's a self-evidently not the case and i'm self-evidently not do you think it is self-evident yes it is I think that let's bring the historical perspective in we are at the end of a period of something like five hundred years in which a kind of Christianity a kind of British state Christianity has informed who we are our laws our language our literature our habits our customs our superstitions that period because of the way that the church in the state of the crown are pulling apart and because of the way that our population is changing is coming to an end and so people who are asking what does it mean what do we do do we throw that away do we keep it is there something about that that we can have anybody saying weighs a mere speck in the span of time isn't it well of course but we're asking at the moment it is this country that we're living in informed by Christianity does it have a residual the Archbishop of Canterbury said we were haunted by Christianity which I think it's a good way of putting it the question is where we go from here but once it's lost its sort of grip on the minds and hearts of people in the country generally I don't think that you shouldn't you be resorting educational group hasn't lost a grip on the totally lost it's good it's that most people are listening to Richard so so according specifically yes it's not according to your survey Richard fifty four percent the country still care enough to say I'm a Christian but when you ask them what they believe it turns out that it hasn't ghost neither my place nor yours to confront what they believe 54 such a peaceful by your thousand-person poll which set out to prove that there were fewer Christians in the country than there than you thought they're not set out course you did 54 percent of the country still cares enough to put down Christian they don't have to put down Christian but when you ask them what they actually believe it turns out that it does not have a very large part in hardly any part at all in many cases in their good and I'm happy to live in a country where the Christianity is ambiguous and generous sourness for other faiths and Susy God is worshipped in macomb so Izumi oh my goodness me like panicking we've had an outbreak of consensus can't be having it makes a really important point and I said we've got to move beyond is polarization actually say what do we want to hang on to and what we want to you know make new okay let's leave that's important question sorry Jonathan lady about that that's here for me are we is this a Christian country and well I my personal belief is that this country is built on Christian values and I think it's a very very beautiful aspect of this country I am a Muslim myself are not there's something I value about this country but I don't think that people are necessarily Christian in terms of the technical details of that faith I think they have a general awareness or a belief in God hmm and over here we say good morning to you good morning and I think we're talking well both sides really a talking croissant in an incredibly practical way and I don't think we were actually addressing the fact that we have a very moral country and I think especially the politicians of the minute and the Tories are using this is a in light of the riots and the exact that as a sort of moral guidance that they want us to follow and but although I don't like the Tories and I do think and that that our country isn't Christian in a practical way we you know the Queen is our head of state she's head of the Church of England but realistically it's the government that leads us we don't attend church but I think people do still hold those values and but then again I think most religions offer those values I think it's very much geographical actually I think that the Far East is incredibly moral and that's you know whether that's because of Islam or whatever other religion okay and I think it's jeffing it's not as practical as we're talking those of interesting entering questions ever thank you for that they saw the whole idea though of this this sort of slightly vague and some say wishy-washy but some say comfortable and gentle form of Christianity and tolerant Christina says we have in this country if you look I mean Richard or Andrew to address this if you look to to France you know which is a richest part of the bottle which is you know validly secular and arguably as a result perhaps of that even has some pretty liberal laws you know banning of the burqa religious symbols and so forth thank you lasers are very lit we don't know be able will that not be a danger well I think that you can you can over-egg the extent to which anglicanism really has led to tolerance and it was very hard you know ride and they it burned itself out with Perceval literally burnt other people but it's burnt it's about the persecution over the centuries and then eventually arrived at a sort of you know tolerant settlement but I think that there are many other factors in this country that have led to that tolerant feeling a sort of a long long centuries without any particular civil war or internal conflict relative prosperity of new economic well we've had civil wars in these islands in the last 30 years oh well okay that's true okay so let's see England and Wales apart partly inspired by Vinci well it no because your question was about Danny yeah which was only established in it was on Christianity in these islands could kind of feel there are many questions in France as well so that can't really be the dividing yeah factor and indeed the French state funds a various Catholic groups even because it's secularism what my argument would be that yes this is a very tolerant country and that's very much to be welcomed but I think that the sort of things that the establishment of the Church of England and the artificially inflated Christian figure preserves are far from tolerant that seventy-two percent figure for examples was used and has been used to justify not just existing state-funded faith schools that discriminate but an expansion of them and it's at the hard edge of political debate that that figure is used to actually inflict damage on other people and that's the problem and that's why the survey is important because it shows that those people who are in that seventy percent or whatever it's very popular a lot of people want to send their children to them if there's some of these specifics are academically so decisive yeah I would not ban the burqa that is that is a liberal hmm some of the specific questions on theologians are interesting as well I camped in a minute dr. cat me but I'm interested in this one Rowan Williams quite recently said you don't have to believe you know in the virgin birth to be a Christian no do you believe in it do I believe it yeah well literally not necessarily well what does that mean literally not necessarily your intention timing identifying me as a Christian which is it did a virgin give birth 2,000 years ago to Jesus cross why I don't know Nicky I know I know that the Bible doesn't matter does it matter to me personally in terms of not really your photo it matter to be a prisoner no it doesn't III think there we are making an interesting move on the basis of what Andrew and Richard were just saying this week we've had a comment from from the Queen who's made a shift and has started to talk about the Church of England acting as a kind of broker using its influence on the state you know those things that are left of its influence in official circles to become kind of broker for people of all faiths now actually I think that's a that's a valuable and a positive way forward possibly it may be the only way for the Church of England's got left do you believe in the virgin birth Christine I do I do I believe in miracles too hmm and do you have to believe in the virgin birth and the reservation price to be a Christian and the whole thing is that you see what is so interesting is that what Richard and the his fellow secularists want is for science to be the only guiding force well a lot of religious people are secularists that yeah and and and and for rationality and reason to be our God but actually what spirituality is it is is a whole other dimension that we enter into and that you know you don't I don't care what you believe and what you say you care if I really care because you keep what are you holding us in I try to clear an Irish game and if we play a numbers game 7,000 members of the National Secular society is just about as much Cristina please so national British hostage appreciation society oh no this is politics let's not let okay wait wait Jonica Jonathan Jonathan Richard what we remind Richard what he was going to say I was just interrupted I can't my car from yeah it was the point at what we did was the point you were making it was the point before that about I'm saying that's not appreciating not appreciated I don't care what you believe so long as what you believe is not used to legislate in this country and affect what the rest of us believe why do we have 64 sorry twenty-six places in parliament reserved for bishops of the Church of my knowledge finish could I finish let me finish why not have 26 places reserved for white men this is another if you did that if you did that there would be outrage and quite rightly why do we have 10 digits places reserved for the bishops of the Church of England what do you think what do you think about this well I don't know about the virgin birth or not do you think that's key to being a Christian do you think all those sort of fundamentals key it's up to them what they if they want to believe supernatural nonsense that is up to them but don't force it on the rest of us okay what about you use doctor can't mean doctor cap doctor can't me do you think this is a Christian country now let me give you much limb perspective on what you ask I have been working for the last 30 year with hundreds of Christian organization pro-life family morality chastity marriage letter sexual etcetera why I walked because this is my stomache values the same we share together they sell value and this value are very few today implemented what's gone wrong what's gone I mean I agree I disagree a lot with professor Eshel document but in this point it's not consent article 30 Ten Commandment are broken day and night by majority of attrition in Britain we badly need to go to back to Christian value and if you implement your Christian value we have our Islamic Latin lesson exactly like you but in the same time we believe by the way about not licentiousness and depravity or all those things for an area we believe in very many believe in Jesus we believe in Ten Commandment etcetera a lot of potential to million British Muslim to Christian Britain but practically we should be careful don't say just kalsekar t we are practically multi-phase we have many religion ok it's also we doing ok ok right ok so two main points on to make first of all it's important to remember that faith is a force for good and I think it's often portrayed that you know this always a chance of that there's something like just inherently kind of extremist about religion so you have to actively moderate that's not true now secondly thing is when you look at the poll that's been commissioned that it says that people are not Christian according to this textbook definition I think is this over time there's been an evolution of people's affiliation to their faith just because they do not take the books according to what we may consider to be traditional you know religious people does not mean that they are not religious I mean Michael said earlier that they cared enough to tick the box say I'm Christian so you cannot say that because they don't follow all the commandments therefore you are not a Christian it's like saying like it's a very poor example they on radio 4 went they hoped your professor Dawkins that you couldn't pronounce name the book of Charles Donnelly therefore you're not good enough atheist that's wrong same thing you can't do that to a Christian Singh just because you don't go to church as regularly as it says so therefore you are not a good enough Christian that's incorrect you cannot go down that route people choose their values and that's up to them we can't say that's what makes your question that's what makes you Muslims Andrew I mean nobody's saying that just to clarify I think note the survey itself that richest foundation did that the more I did which is found extrapolate from it there's no what's being said is that after the 2001 census results were published and there was a very high proportion of Christians lots of Christian lobby groups lots of bishops lots of politicians lapped upon those figures with glee and said look it proves what we've known all along Britnie still a Christian country it just defies faith schools it justifies contracting out public services to Christian groups it justifies this that and the other now what this research is attempting to articulate and demonstrate is that that was a mistaken assumption by those people because actually that seventy-two percent has been hijacked and what that 72 percent believes is not what it's being claimed to Belize but is something else is that's the important we see that given everything that you say does that mean that you want the state to take back from the religious institutions any work that they do with youth any work that they do with schools any work that they do I say no I said it to what state what is the point what is the point of doing this poll well it wasn't my fault okay so what would if this if there were to be a sudden awakening of atheism and also secularism two different things yeah what would we lose I think we would lose a great great deal because we would lose in the public space we don't want just the government to be dealing with on running schools with running charities with we want voluntary spirits and many of these faiths are very urgent these faith schools are yes under the mania very Bank of them at funded many of them aren't and what we do no problem with that is it's the state funded ones which are a third of all our state-funded schools but but are you going to have are you going to have a state funded charities are you going to have state funded um hospitals are you going to only have sex today so secularism doesn't affect the thriving civil sphere we already have that sign it affects what what's funded by the state in our public life which should be you know treat people without privilege or discrimination on the basis of religion if there are state-funded schools they shouldn't be choosing pupils on the base nobody down here good morning hello I first question you asked is that this country's a Christian Christian country yeah well I believe if you are buying Christmas presents and mr. eggs yes it is a Christian country well this yes it is a Christian country but when it comes to moral issues I'm sorry it is not what I believe is the our government professors research could be actually used as a positive manner thinking that yes we are failing as a Christians and we need to upgrade that every time there's a wedding or marriage take place I think that should be actually applauded rather than discriminated against acts I think family should be family life should be encouraged abortions and single parenting should be discouraged and help people to stay within marriage is create a stable families Christianity support is this your view of Christianity like a slightly different view of Christianity but I think the important things we have the conversation about it and what worries me is while we have this polarization we don't get a sensible conversation so let's discuss now would it be good to give tax breaks to married couples I don't think so I would like to see tax breaks to civil partnerships I'd like to see people be able to you know heterosexuals to think it's an object and and gay people to build a marriage Jake has a tolerant Christian view you kind of have a Christian country and have a faith faith faith oriented country when it have a civil partnerships and you're encouraging X Y Z I'm sorry I do not want me to discriminate against anybody but as a Christian view of government what is a Christian view of the state and to me it is one that allows for plurality effectively a secular one which is not value free but doesn't impose any one religious form on the nation and surely that's what it you know at the best religious view is at all yeah cool well absolutely I think we are in a position where we we will have to find a way forward that allows for plural plural don't even say the word we have a thousand I think actually you know Richard we don't have no God we have a thousand gods instead of one in this country we need to find a way forward to allow that to be and to celebrate that nobody really believes that there should be 26 bishops in the House of Lords these days we've got to change I really have fun on page but what we do have to find a way forward a way forward that reflects the fact that Britain is still fascinated by God yeah yeah and still nice go but there is a point that we there I've been debating with a number of people this week they do believe there should be twenty six bishops and as well do believe that church schools should be able to discriminate in their missions and employment and I think that does need to be challenged I think we need to be honest about that and there are religionists who are you know need to become account as well as there are sectors in what interests me is that there are religionists on one side there are atheists on the other side there are by Richards estimation 30 million people sitting in the middle scratching their heads watching this program and going what about us thirty million I wish Richard you finally you've said faith is a spent force in the UK do you think the trends are very much the you know religion is slowly crawling into the dustbin of history yeah I think so I'm actually showing some signs of desperation and when you think that what what faith actually is is believing something without evidence how can you possibly justify believing something without evidence if it's if there is evidence it's not faith anymore it's evidence it's what people who believe in science believe in what percentage of the universe don't you know anything about these days that's a very great idea a very great deal and I don't say therefore I believe CERN so I say I'm waiting to find out we're working on going north not more research so the truth then why do you have faith in things like the virgin birth and I rarely racism I'm glad you don't but may you do I do a night ritual I know you do how can you justify believing something which there's never I tell you it's because I believe in the resurrection the reason is it offers me a hope of the future and the vision and actually it shapes my ethics and I come to similar conclusions in some areas to you because of my faith you get there by a different route can we disagree on some things because I come at it that's very important to respect but very revealing you believe something because it gives you hope Niki's my case rests we are going to leave it there listen thank you all so much for taking part if you'd like to have us a about that debate log on to bbc.co.uk/topgear audience tbq at mental TV we are in Cardiff next week then on March the 4th we're in York to record two shows and we're in Leicester on the 18th of March

Channel: Tr3Vel0cita

Views: 335,024

Rating: 4.8059421 out of 5

Keywords: Is, Britain, Christian, Country, Christianity, Religion, Politics, Faith, Government, Secularism, Secular, Law, Bishops, House, Of, Lords, Unelected, Bias, Fairness, Bible, Scripture, Superstition, Evidence, Science, Evolution, Abortion, Homosexuality, Gay, Marriage, Stem, Cell, Research, Debate, British, Humanist, Association, BHA, Atheism, Atheist

Id: IYd6k7peIwU

Length: 32min 55sec (1975 seconds)

Published: Sun Feb 19 2012

Reddit Comments

[u/PWC1004]

OP, could you also post this to r/AtheistVids?