Psychological Tricks To Win Any Negotiation | Chris Voss

welcome to the show I'm Jordan Harbinger several years ago I met an FBI hostage negotiator who had revolutionized the way the FBI deals with terrorists bank robbers and other hostage takers who would gladly hold a gun to your head to get what they wanted now my good friend Chris Voss is one of the leading experts on negotiation anywhere today we'll learn the subtle art of letting someone else have our way using psychological leverage archetypes of different negotiators and personalities as well as something called the Black Swan rule treating others not the way we want to be treated but the way they want to be treated now there's a reason that Chris has changed the way we negotiate with both terrorists and teenagers at home or the home office and if you liked our previous three-part series on negotiation with Alex Koontz then you'll really love what Chris and I have for you on this episode of the show remember there are worksheets for every episode this one is no exception those are at Jordan Harbinger calm in the show notes and also check out six-minute networking if you want to learn how I book all these amazing people for the show that's over at Jordan Harbinger comm slash course we teach you my networking tips and tricks' systems to keep it all engaged all right here's Chris Voss I read the whole book of course again which is great because you still learned there's so much in the book it reads like a more interesting instruction manual or textbook with actual stories which most textbooks don't have because there's never any practical application the things you read in a lot of textbooks but I noticed that even after how long you been doing the FBI thing how long were you doing that 20 years 24 years 24 years you said you still feel fear during the negotiations what do you mean by that what why are you still feeling fear after well you know I mean that nobody ever gets away from it you're wired into it it really would just matters what you're scared of it's nothing that scared it's what were you scared of you know I'm scared of not doing a good job I'm scared I miss something I it took me a long time to realize I'm actually scared of being afraid scared of being scared yeah you know like like the like if fighting words for me you're coward because the last thing I want to be as a coward or the what conversely you know the worst one of the worst names I ever call him but it's a coward like if I say you're a coward I probably despise you okay yeah where are you from woods Europe Iowa okay is that a cause that sounds like it's like a Texas thing okay so how boy like all he called me yella yeah Marty McFly yeah because me yeah that's kind of what I'm thinking if somebody called me a coward I'm like I don't know how personally would I take that yeah right now they're different yeah we resonate with different words now I don't think it's an Iowa thing I think people are guilty that everyone sure you know it's a little bit you know were you born I mean we believe you know my company that you're born one of three types fight flight or make friends it's a descendents from the caveman days and people who put it in other ways you know caveman saw something you know do I eat it does it eat me can I make with it it's the same thing yeah I happen to be from the fight tribe so okay but the world splits pretty evenly into thirds I mean you get into a real problem the prompt rejection bias I am normal if you will thinking that other people think like us yeah so for flight we think everybody's fight yeah yeah that you know you think everybody's like that I can remember first time I got introduced to a concept I was was when I first went up to Harvard Law School's from negotiations course in their executive class and they gave us his tki thomasgillam and conflict mode instrument breaks you into five types knocked you out you're left with one of those three and remember the sitting there thinking like every one of my hostage negotiators damn well better being assertive because we got people's lives on a line projection you know it's how I am that's what it takes to do the job as it turns out that's only one each type has stuff they bring to the table that are necessary no one type has the market cornered and as I looked over my hostage negotiators I had those that were primary analysts and I had those that were primarily relationship oriented people and I was primarily assertion and what you really need is all three so that just happens to be the tribe I started out and and you got to learn the rest so we have personality archetypes that affect our negotiation is that what I'm hearing that's who that would yes okay yeah and you measure that from a tester you just kind of say this person is this one this person is that one based on their you know you're gonna get you can get a pretty good feel early on problem when you have miscommunications and miss matches and communications or barriers you know impasse is almost always a type problem a type mismatch problem misunderstanding of a conversation classic example the accommodative relationship oriented type the worst thing they can do to you is stop working on a relationship because that's the thing they value most if we're talking it's awesome if I shut up it means I hate you or I'm furious the meanest thing relationship or in person can do is give you the silent reading you know and that's how these signal fury now the analytical type on the other hand love silence because they live to think so you get an analyst analyst and a comedy are talking to each other the analyst goes silent because they grateful for the opportunity to thank the accommodated relationship oriented type is like oh my god they're upset I better talk the analyst can't think because the accommodator keeps talking right this is just like you should shut up and the commenter is going I gotta talk and if the other person is assertive or relationship oriented I should say and then viana was just thinking the relationship oriented person's going oh they're mad at me they're angry right so we have that it's kind of like the internet book the five love languages or something yeah it's for relationships of course but it sounds like these personality archetypes exist in negotiation as well yeah and so do you in the beginning of any negotiation do you try to ascertain which type of communication style the other party has is that important well you want you want to you want to pull you know pull the information as you go in reality should be working and having a great relationship all the time so you know we like to start with of the nine negotiation skills there's two that everybody likes and so you start out with that till you know the other type which is basically you know really listening really dial in and because everybody wants to be listened to and then if you run into problems your first question is probably misinterpreting what they say you know problems on mind it's sort of like the real problem with cross-cultural negotiations everybody wants to learn cross-cultural negotiation yeah because I still want to be me but I want to know the tiny little things I got to do to make you happy so I can still be me like an American alright so don't show the bottom of my feet to somebody from the Middle East and don't shake with my left hand and then I could do everything else wrong yeah yeah you know we're looking for shortcuts as opposed to really adapting to the other side right so we look for these kind of even know you'd call them sound bites yeah go don't cross your foot and point it at the Saudi prince because that'll make them mad and then right while you just ignore all of the other more nuanced exactly the things that would actually require work to learn and practice right yeah better to just open up a fortune cookie and learn something yeah that makes sense okay and I know that you use this in parenting which makes sense you got to negotiate with kids but what about people day to day I mean are you looking at personality archetypes and communication or negotiation styles with everybody that you meet kind of automatically you know it's you know are you looking for it or you're focusing on it or are you just trying to remain aware of it right right and it's a little bit more just remaining aware of it or so and make some predictions about how people are gonna react to different sorts of gestures you know an assertive type I'm a natural-born a certain you know we're not good at reciprocity because we think we're so logical that if you gave us something it was only logical that you should give it to me therefore I don't know just a little sense of entitlement maybe yeah you could call like that if I got it I should have got it the relationship oriented person we want to trade stuff back and forth all the time so if I give you something I'm really happy I'm like a puppy dog with a ball you know throw the ball again let's do it again and we get really flummoxed when the assertive just seems to be completely oblivious there you gotta throw the ball back and the assertive is thinking like what's your problem you know I don't know what the matter with you so tiny little things like that again you it's when there's an impact somebody communication is broken down is probably gonna be type mismatch I wonder if it's been a little annoying since you've written the book dealing with family and friends where they they look at every action that you have that you do and they're like oh I'm not doing that you're doing this thing that you're doing the reciprocity thing I'm not playing that game ah the hardest part is with my girlfriend oh yes because she's heard me give a thousand interviews talking about this stuff so she's heard me talk about her guard gets up a little bit and I'm like you know I can what is that what is that line from the movie the negotiator okay you know Kevin Spacey the character he's playing I can listen to you and actively listen at the same time yeah it's in a way people people get that people do get a little defensive the closer they are to you the more defensive they might get oh man how do you shut that down because I would imagine there's people especially if you're dealing with a somebody who's also really aware of negotiation skills or your say you're not dealing say you're dealing with it like a terrorist and the Philippines which you talk about in the book are they if they're reading into your actions that could kind of blow up in your face because even if you're not trying to do some sort of trick to them they might perceive it that way and you have to manage that yeah well all right so first of all it kind of starts with who's where's the other side coming from like if my son and I use negotiation techniques all the time he's my chief operating officer he's a print he's a chief negotiator for a company the word we want to collaborate so of course we should be able to use negotiation techniques with each other we'll both come from a great place or potential clients you know if a client wants to cheat us then that come from a good place we're probably not going to make a deal with them we're not trying to cheat our clients you know so they don't need to have their guard up around us what we're gonna over deliver so it's really on where you're coming from now then you're talking about a terrorist there most of them that negotiate are the classic assertive negotiator and I got one or two moves period they're used to intimidating people and that's it they're demanding name-calling assertive the craziest thing is that I didn't realize when a book was written but we realized since we come out the procurement negotiator in business is almost the exact same type as the kidnapping negotiator internationally well wait so so somebody somebody in Abu Sayyaf is the same as the procurement / guy one one just has a fancier rifle and maybe a hostage right people they in business boy they they intimidate they call names they do everything they can't to pound a heck out of the other side huh I am imagining we're gonna get some emails from procurement people they're like it's not true I'm not like that you don't start with bad ones every no no here's a funny thing every we do a lot of open enrollment training 50 people in a room there's always one or two procurement people there and you know I'll say anybody here from procurement and get out well let stay but I'll say tell me I'm wrong about you guys tell me I'm wrong really and every like now you know I mean I was said I was a lot of procurement people in supply chain I was at a supply chain conference one time one of the guys was talking me off to the side and he said you know we you know when you procurement you got to be really careful that you're not suppliers you're the biggest customer or only customer because you'll end up putting them out of business right and I remember thinking to myself if you're doing did you hear what you just said they know there's yeah it's not win-win at all at that point it's not good not a good the big advantage is to and sales people are horrified of procurement I mean they find out procurements on the other side and they just start to have nervous breakdowns the only time procurements going to be involved is when they really want you can you explain what procurement is so in case people don't don't know German are the the buyers the contracts negotiators calls them contracts negotiators some companies call them there either in contracting northern German those will be their titles but their job is to buy on behalf of the organization okay now what happens is the organization will identify a supplier they want and then procurement becomes involved procurement does not waste their time on suppliers they have no interest in ever so if procurement gets in a game with you buckle up let them call you names don't get upset calm down they're only talking to you because they really want you and if we realize that up front chasing them down the don't get scared right you know I I had a director of sales call me says I want you to teach my people how to not cut the price when someone from procurement calls us with 48 hours left in a quarter and I remember thinking to myself if you even have to ask me that question your structural problems are far out of my ability to change but the reality is all I could do is say no because the procurement guy who calls with 48 hours left and a quarter feels that's the only time the entire quarter he had leverage 48 hours his leverage is gone right so wait 48 hours well you don't wait 72 hours you got them interesting yeah I think a lot of people don't know that they have any leverage that's also in never split the difference is that you always have leverage and I thought well wait a minute what about in a kidnap situation they got your aunt you don't have any leverage but even then you have leverage and it's a it's a classic example that we love to ask people the person with all the leverage you know I got your aunt you got you the ones got the leverage cash is king right who's got the cash yeah you know they don't you probably don't actually want my family member ha ha ha screaming and whining in your basement I'm gonna give them back yeah if you want to get rid of that person I tried them for a briefcase full of money at that point some point yeah ya know but the it's a it's a buyers market kidnapping in reality is a buyers market but that gets back to leverages in the eye of the beholder that's true I suppose because unless you're talking about you're an American and you're being held by a group overseas your aunt is only really valuable to you they can't turn around and go oh well we got a better offer for your aunt from this other person down the street yeah yeah yeah it's like you're the only buyer for that particular product exactly you might really want that product you might really want your aunt back but nobody else can outbid you there's nobody else exactly yeah that's interesting I hadn't really thought about that I thought for sure the exception - you always have leverage was when you were talking about a kidnapping but actually even even there yeah was sort of amazing huh well and your stuff has to work because if if your negotiation techniques don't work in the FBI for hostage situations someone someone dies theoretically yeah let me draw a fine line cuz I had to learn that early on - I learned it from my old boss Gary Nestor but he would always told us and it took me a while to figure out what it meant we got the best chance of success we never guaranteed anybody success we just guaranteed them the best chances so by death you know you said it's always got to work best chance of success if it works 99 times out of 100 0 100 kidnappers you're gonna lose one person oh man so you always have to be kind of ready for that emotionally you should be I don't know that you're ever actually ready till it happens and but then depending upon how have you you prepared yourself accepted and told yourself at least intellectually that it was a possibility then you get through it and what I ended up doing was I actually pointedly recruited the veteran kidnap negotiators with people that have been in situations that somebody got killed who are the best because the other thing at that point in time - is one of two things happen if you're kidnapping negotiators somebody that's killed you say you know what I could do something else you know like a different job let me let me go do something else within the FBI I don't got an appetite for the you know I wanna whatever it is you know maybe I want to do witness support I don't know what but they're gonna decide I think that much fun or they're gonna say I'm never gonna let this happen again I'm gonna double down I'm gonna get smarter I'm gonna work harder I'm gonna go back I'm gonna think about every single thing I did and if there's one even the tiniest thing I would change or get better at I'm gonna go back and get better at it and those people would become the best negotiators because we're always going to propose solutions to scare people what do you mean by that um I might say stop talking to the bad guys now yeah that would freak me out I'd be like I want to keep talking with them because I feel like as long as I keep talking with them my wife's gonna be okay exactly sure but we may know from the profile of the situation that at this point in time if we stop talking the other side's gonna get worried in order to regain control instead of doing something negative they're gonna do something positive because then they can regain control and a completely different mindset so let's let's give them let's trick them into doing something positive because they're gonna try to regain control and they'll they'll be real specific instances where that will be crystal clear that that's what they're gonna do oh man to be sitting next to you must have a lot of people standing next to you especially during these kidnap situations where they're like you better be damn sure about this because you're sitting there like alright well what we're gonna do is we're gonna leave them alone for 24 to 48 hours and then they're probably to put your your mom on the phone and then that person's like what are you talking about you better be right about this right how do you gain that person's trust or do they just have to trust you got to know that moments coming okay if you know what's coming you prepare in advance so you tell them in advance hey look we might have to ghost them for a couple days just be ready for them well I'm gonna say you know there's a really good chance we're gonna do something that's gonna scare the hell out of you you know I don't know exactly how all this is going you know I got a team with me this is not just me saying this I got a team I I'm a representative of our entire body of institutional knowledge this is not my decision everything I do I bounce off a lot of people by wente in advance we're gonna ask you to do stuff that scares the heck out of you and actually and I'm I'll say them I'm gonna tell you in advance I want you to be scared it's gonna help us in a negotiation how's that well what actually happens when you do that first of all the bad guys if they satisfied you're scared they think they got the upper hand and they relaxed you know fear is their control mechanism so their overriding desire is for you to be scared yeah mission accomplished if you've got some kidnapped relatives now they think they're gonna get what they want and they they relax they're less worried about deadlines they don't make so many threats they chill out but the other really crazy thing about the way the brain works is if you have a negative emotion and you say fear and instead of me trying to say eliminate fear I say I like it it'll make it go away right it dissipates takes the edge off problem takes it takes the edge off tremendously because you'll be like what you want me to be scared I'm not trying to suppress it at that point as soon as you stop trying to suppress it it's one of the keys to making it go away okay so this ties in a little bit with what you wrote about with cognitive I think with cognitive bias and having to with knowing that we all suffer from this cognitive bias we can't just have these robotic negotiations and part of that is there's an emotional component to negotiation a lot of people think oh if I do this they're gonna do this if they do this then we're gonna do that and that's sort of like a rational computer program right negotiation right and that doesn't work because we have to take into consideration this emotional component of negotiation how do you prepare for that are you looking at kind of a road map in your head of all right the logical response would be this but I think that we've got this emotional component where they're freaking out because the military is looking for them in the jungle so there's a little bit of fear or there's a little bit of urgency that they're feeling that wouldn't dictate this type of response how do you how do you even know are you able to predict what the other side is gonna do most of the time or are you looking at maybe two outcomes the logical outcome and the emotional outcome and it's going to be one or the other well we there's no such thing as logic first of all at all at all period okay it's like beauty it's in the eye of the beholder no it's logical to you and what's logical to me we're gonna make up based on what we care about mhm which then sort of takes the definition of logic out if it's based on what you care about so we start that there's emotional tension we'll try to think about two to three moves ahead no more than that and we'll think in and and we'll think on a couple two or three different sets of outcomes now we're never going to hit one exactly but actually if we think on both extremes and we're prepared for extremes it's going to land someplace in the middle and we're gonna be prepared for no matter what the reason why you don't think more on three moves ahead is and it's kind of hard to envision this but everybody wants to think in terms of chess you know rotations chess right well just connect all the pieces with Springs under tension because when you make a move in chess all the other pieces stay in exactly the same place but if they were all connected by Springs every time you moved one they'd all move a little bit and by the time you'd made two or three moves almost all the chess pieces would have reset which meant all of your analysis is now gone because the entire board got reset and that's what happens with emotion so you think I don't know roughly where I want to end up there's about five different ways to get there let's see which one we go off on first so you're not looking at like okay we do this and then that's probably gonna happen then we're gonna do that and that's probably gonna happen do you have to take each move individually based on where you are right in that moment because if the chess pieces are all moving every time you do something then you're dealing with a whole new scenario after each move that much after about after each third move like you get a pretty good idea what the next move is gonna be but you go very much farther than that and I'll give you an example Chase Manhattan Bank we talked about it in the book yeah the bank robbery bank robbery i I'm a second negotiator on a phone humid gown as a commander of the NYPD team he puts me on a phone he takes this guy off he says you're up you're next this is what I want you to do bad-guy been hiding his name from us the whole time we're pretty sure we knew who he was by the time I'm getting ready to get on a phone we'd also been talking to him about letting hostages go is this crit is it Chris Watts guy named Chris walks yeah hey great first name right yeah depends on depends on your emotional perspective yeah but all right so we're asking about hostages we got no reason to believe he'd hurt the hostages which was bad analysis he beaten all of them at that point and that's we didn't know that's a bad sign I would assume generally it's a bad sign so Hugh says we're gonna switch up and go is we're not the ordinary Hancock handoff with Jordan be like Chris is gonna come on the phone chris has been listening the whole time let me introduce Chris and you have been listening the whole time I have okay that's the normal handoff and I would say hi I'm Chris you know I've been sitting with Jordan the whole time and as a matter of fact I've been listening to everything here's everything I heard why would you switch negotiators sorry to interrupt you but I'm curious what why go hey Jordan was negotiating with you before he's gone now now it's me Oh what's the point of that it could be you're doing a bad job yeah that's probably why it also could be you and the hostage taker I have got such a great relationship going that the minute he comes out the relationships over and that's why he won't come out Oh interesting so there's this he wants to keep that going for some reason some psychological attachment to the negotiator yeah I was I was I was on I was on another barricade and I'm listening and the hostage the guy was barricaded and a negotiator having such a great conversation I turn the commander and I said he ain't coming out as long as he gets to talk to Jordan we're gonna be loves only friend yeah George is only proud man so it could be a variety of reasons you know you got to call in a moment but anyway Hugh puts me on the phone and he says we're not gonna do the ordinary handoff you're just kind of take over the phone so you're talking to me now and we're gonna do it really abruptly all right and then when you get a chance you can do a couple of other things so we do a complete abrupt shift and our bad guy is kind of like oh well play games with me huh now of course this is not what he says but he talked to me for a few moments puts me on hold he goes and gets a hostage with no warning and all of a sudden I hear a woman's voice on the other and the phone say I'm okay mm-hmm and I I'm sorry who is this who is this she says I am okay and then the phone goes dead she goes away now not in a million years we have predicted that going forward but he's like you want to play games I'll play games too he goes and gets a hostage he puts her on the phone doesn't say anything threatening he never gets on the phone and says now I want to remind you I got hostages it's all implied because he also knows the bank is surrounded with the seventh largest standing army in the world NYPD 7th largest standing army in the world they got 50 caliber machine guns they got SWAT guys they got bombs he's one of he killed he's smart enough to imply a threat without stating a threat because he knows if he says you got an hour if you want to keep the hostage alive what's gonna go in and somebody's gonna put a little red dot on his forehead he's gonna be gone but we never could have predicted that move and if we if we had a whole game plan mapped out that we were sure was gonna work that would have all been wasted time as soon as he put the hostage on the phone cuz it blew the Planum - that's my chessboard it reset the chessboard what was the point of the abrupt shift in negotiation and negotiators without doing a handoff what was that why do that we were trying to show him and us more maybe not entirely subtle way that we were in charge and you can do that you can do in any negotiation you could risk something the other side might not like if you've been stalemated for a really long time and we'd been stalemated for five hours and a stalemate by definition is a low threat level so it's you know risking a u-turn and what happens after you turn it come becomes an s-curve and you come around someplace else and you're in a better place okay so we we were risking a setback because it we'd been stuck for so long you mentioned that when people feel listened to they listen to themselves more and they clarify their demands and their desires so how would that look in practice is that because what I'm imagining this I'm imagining somebody just kind of being fake-nice to the hostage-taker on the phone so that they feel heard or something I guess I'm trying to imagine what this would look like in practice well in a bank or in a business negotiation well I guess the exciting version is the bank robbery but the practical situation is the the business negotiation yeah well you know I could say look you you you know you see you're not gonna hurt a hostage but you're not gonna let anybody go you know how those things add up you know you know I'm gonna I'm gonna if I need you to hear what you're saying I need to pick out a couple things that you say that don't add up and then I say how do those add up so you're forcing me as a hostage taker to reconcile what I've said and maybe think about what I'm doing that is exactly the point and that works in hostage negotiation or some business negotiation and and it's actually probably more important in business negotiations because most business people will stay stuck in a rut on us with a strategy that's taken them nowhere and and they'll say they have big goals and so I can say to a head of sales um you want your salespeople to be more productive but you're not going to give him any more training how do those things that up hmm it reminds me of the how am I supposed to do that technique it's a version of that is it okay yeah exactly right you know how is a great deference award you know one definition of confrontation is a focus comparison so I take your actions and I take your words and I use the word how to compare them it's just a focus comparison so that in practice would be somebody asks you for something like give me a million dollars or I'm gonna shoot your your aunt say well how am I supposed to do that how am I supposed to get you the money yeah that's just that's just a straight how it's um that's deferential but it shifts the entire problem back onto them which at least wears amount so do you how much of negotiation especially in a hostage situation or actually business and that for hostage for that matter is wearing the other party down to the point where they just want to if it's a hostage situation go home take whatever the hell they can get leave or in business they just want to go to the bathroom or get lunch and just not be in that damn conference revenue well it's wearing the other side down if the other side is an aggressive throat-cutting negotiator or if they're from procurement sure yeah you know depends upon who's on the other side or if your emotions are out of control you know your emotions are gonna get tamp down as you get exhausted if your emotions are out of control and negative way you know it's important to draw a fine line it's not emotions that are bad it's negative emotions that are bad positive emotions actually help us perform better how do you harness that and practice I would imagine it's got to be pretty tough knowing there's a bank full of people and you've got a harness positive emotion I mean what are you doing to get yourself in a positive state oh well I mean the defensive wound on a bank I mean I'm gonna remain optimistic over the outcome even with you like you're a bank robber and I'm talk to you on the phone ideally you've made it escape demand ideally where's that ideal that shows that you want to live oh right right if I make no escape demand you're wondering if I'm just gonna if you haven't made an escape demand there's a really good chance that you're planning on dying today suicide by cotton so absence of an escape the man is a really bad bad bad bad bad sign in a barricade bank robbery if you got a guy barricade in his house ain't getting make an escape domain because that's where he lives but if it's a if it's a bank or something like that and there's no escape demand you got a real problem do you try to lead them to an escape demand or are you actually seeing if they'll do it because you want to get it there a read on their situation now you got to read them yeah you know you you really can't lead people because something and what they're saying is going to give you the out so I just got to listen for it okay right because if you just say how do you plan on getting out of there they're just gonna make something up but it's gonna be like I'm gonna start doing bodies out to you let me go oh man so I don't want to go there yeah you don't accelerate that timeline by any stretch yikes yeah youyou've also one thing that's fascinating to me is that smart people often don't make good negotiators that was actually really disappointing for me because I thought because you're really smart guy naturally I'm a well-studied guy I went to law school I'm gonna be great at negotiation and then I read the rationale for why and I thought that crap that is me I would totally fall into these traps can you outline what some of that is because I think a lot of people think they're really good at negotiating because they're intelligent and they can solve a lot of problems yeah you want y'all smart yard and the problem with that is you might not intend it that way but it makes me feel stupid as a as a hostage taker or as a right yeah in business I mean the more the more you show you're smarter than me the less I want to be around you because I like being around you and that's not good news for a long-term relationship so you know that's a real problem the other problem is there's an efficiency problem that was completely obstacle we would think if you want somebody if I want to tell you the answer me telling you it's very passive on your side it's what we refer to as a didactic exchange you're just sitting there listening passively and there's some pretty solid data out there that if I want to get a point across you in in a didactic exchange where you're just listening you're just passive you're not you're not engaged I got to tell you 19 times that's a lot it's a lot it's it's it's the least efficient way to get a point across is to tell somebody cuz you got to tell him 19 times now if I slow down if I use questions to affect your thinking if I shape your thinking so that you discover it right if then it's my idea to things okay you discover it faster and it's your idea so I got two things going for me now it took less time overall and you embrace it much more because you feel like you thought it this would this seems like a parenting that's be kind of handy a parenting right like well maybe you know how much a parent thing is just human being the human being yeah I think all of it yeah it's just that one human being might be a little bit more emotional or irrational kids more our kids more rational than adults I don't even know well again definition of rationality you can count on kids to be more optimistic and adults to be more pessimistic so who's better off probably the kid in a lot of ways yeah you know there's and that's that'll give us off unto almost a whole different journey on cognitive learning but kids are more present in the moment that's why they learn faster than adults do dogs are always worried about outcomes always considering what happened in the past always worried about where it's going those two things by definition takes you out of the moment which means you're not learning as much you're not figuring out the moment as fast as you could be kids learn languages faster than adults do do they have this magical power no they're not distracted by the past or the future the way adults are and they just have more focused in the moment and probably less worried about looking stupid as well that's part of the worry they were more in the future how am I gonna look this doesn't work out interesting book out there called the culture code Daniel Coyle sure yeah very first part of it right for groups kindergartners business school students CEOs and I think lawyers more interesting set of samples see it for four teams marshmallow challenge you get macaron dried macaroni string in a marshmallow as a team construct the highest tower what team wins the kindergarten really huh third second place of the CEOs third place are the lawyers last place are the business school students that's funny no surprise lawyers coming in and coming too high right yeah yeah but the kiddie cars because they're there they don't care about looking stupid in front of each other so they don't care about make a mistake so they try 400 different ways and they finally find a handle ball and they interact then they support each other and nobody gets bent out of shape or nobody gets concerned or embarrassed and and they win every time and the Business School students are still making spreadsheets until the clock almost runs out let me finally throw something together and it falls over yeah yeah I can imagine yeah and I actually took a harder look at that too because I don't think it's Business School students per se I think it's the age range and the typical age range you're talking about you mid 20s to early 30s and in sort of my view my experience that's when people are at their some of the most individually competitive times do you find that negotiating with people hostage takers for example do you see differences in the age group like hey if someone's 19 and they take hostages is it a different negotiation than if someone's 60 and they take hostages or is that kind of no yeah it would be completely different really yeah because they're you know their views of the past in the future gonna be completely different and which is gonna affect your threat level how can you tell aside from the age what are you looking for for their assessment of the past in the future they're gonna start giving it to you right away it's remarkably that stuff in any circumstances remarkably easy to hear if you actually listen I'm really listening for first you look for pronouns then you then you'll look for levels of emotion then you know there's gonna be implications indicators of the future and nearly everything that they say they're optimistic young person or the old either person okay either optimism or pessimism about you know where things are going oh you know what's in the moment or you also look for specific types of losses personal professional losses are the biggest ones you know big personal losses big professional losses and so you're looking at people's calculation over losses and then how does that affect their vision of the future okay so when you see that somebody is maybe younger or optimistic about the future does that bode better for the negotiation itself or is it just a difference that a tactic yeah well if they're optimistic about the future then yeah you got somebody can work with it and you know they just staring they're in the midst of a coping situation sometimes gone sideways for the mom there's a pretty good chance - just trying to sort of get their feedback under them emotionally and especially if if they're optimistic about the future then they feel like and they can they're resilient over whatever comes out of short term they'll get over it so you're pulling all these different levers depending on what people are giving you are you mostly reacting to the hostage taker or are you following through on a specific set of plans more or less that just takes different detours based on what they're doing you try to figure out how you can get out in front what does that mean well I need to start a assess you know what's driving you know what you know what loss is there what negative emotions there the hostage negotiation skills are just emotional intelligence tools I can start to hear what negative emotions are driving you and I know how to turn them down I will listen for what those positives might be and I know how to turn those up and as soon as I started getting a readout of where you are sort of on you know there's a buffet of choices that I then have and so now now I can get proactive and start to get out in front of something if you just need to feel back in control your barricaded your man of your wife instead of saying do you want to get out us alive do you want to see your kids again do you want to live those are all yes oriented questions if you really mad at your wife I might say you want your wife to win hmm and so that's no right I know from my experience that when you say no you feel in control that's why people say no yeah so you might want to give them a know so that they regain control I feel like it's five times as good as yes will ever be so knows even better than yes at least five times better really across the board in all circumstances all circumstances so you're trying to get them to say no or get to a no I should say business deal i I lay a proposal out in front of you instead of instead I said saying would this work for you I'll say is it ridiculous to think this might work for you yeah of course I would say no unless it's actually ridiculous somewhere well if if their problems with it when you say no you say no it's not ridiculous but here are the problems if I say would this work for you you can't say yes but here are the problems it's really hard to do that so you're scared to say yes because you think you've just agreed to the deal right so that's when you're gonna go maybe and then you got a dancer you got nothing you're scared to answer at all but since since you've already said when you've already said no to something whatever you say after that you don't feel there's obligations that go along with it I said no it doesn't work here the problems I never said I'd agree if I lay the problems out if I lay the problems out and you fix them I will agree but since I never felt like I said that an import of fact if I fix all those problems I now have a tailor-made solution to you that you felt in control right so the know is almost like a highlighter it's like Envisat it's like an you're seeing the invisible ink at that point yeah it's a nice point because you can I'm telling you exactly what's wrong at that point and then you can go all right circle it mentally circling these three things change those and then we in theory we have a deal yeah yeah instead of just having you shoot something down or lose control by saying yes what you're not gonna do especially if the stakes are really high right right right yeah I mean we got a lot of people that are focused and on air they lay a proposition out to somebody and I say well you know what's wrong with this you know what are the obstacles here there's gotta be obstacles you know help us identify them so this is cooperative almost no matter what because you're you're doing a deal whether the person's kidnapped a family member or they're robbing a bank or you're sitting across from sharing a pot of tea at a business negotiation that's friendly or you're parenting your kid so these are all cooperative regardless of whether or not it's all a business deal seemingly yeah I would imagine that cognitive bias comes into play especially when emotions are really high and you talk about this a little bit in the book is that why you have people all right let me let me back this up you see these things in movies right where there's there's a hostage negotiation and there's like the police captain's on the phone and the commissioners on the phone and the mayor's on the phone and the hostage negotiators on the phone and then some psycho is on the phone and there's 15 other people listening on headphones one is that accurate to what is the point of that are you trying to is it sort of getting everybody's opinion I mean what's the point of all this all those people are on the phone with a bad guy yeah I feel like I said only gonna want to have one person on a phone you're not gonna want to swap out a lot of people oh I just mean listening to the call oh well let's think you can call if people know how to listen as a team what does that mean everybody everybody everybody got specific assignments stuff you're listening for like your only job may be to keep track of how long the conversation lasted why is that why is that important because the longer the conversation it's an indicator we're making progress because of it's sort of a trust barometer or yeah I think that's a fair that's that's a fair assessment but there's and then so then I might have somebody else you're only listening for the negative things that they say that sound negative Rican Street as negative you're only listening for the positive things they say I mean when somebody starts talking between the words that they say and even more importantly the words they don't say or their tone of voice there's more information there than one person can keep up on roughly we can we can listen at a rate of about 400 words a minute we speak at a rate of 140 160 words a minute that's why we think we can listen to more than one conversation just awards but there's five times as much information in the tone of voice and there are in the words so 140 times five we're banned what's odd is now you're already shot the bandwidth of one person Ellis I see so you've got people listening for vocal tonality like you said the positives and negatives and that has to be a specific person because I'm sitting here while you're telling me that I'm like I could do that all myself but that's exactly what people who get people killed in hostage situations think right yeah yeah yeah I hire me for that I'll you know give me give me seven people yeah you give me seven people to listen to everything will all pick a different part we'll all have very specific assignments and we will come up with an encyclopedia of information ideas and clues in a ten-minute conversation so these seven people are these all these people all on your team yeah negotiating with the hostage negotiation thing and then the call ends and then what everybody goes and sits down and says all right what did you hear what did you I mean how does how do you construct this in the moment cuz I would imagine you can't say all right everybody file a report about this this has to happen pretty quick I would imagine these hostage negotiations time is always of the essence so you got these seven people that you pick for your team and are they all hostage negotiators or they're all trained they've all got to be trained and do they always do the same thing like is there always a guy am I always the voice tone guy am I always the positive that kind of depends got everybody's capable pretty much doing any job our best negotiator will not be on a phone or best negotiator will be running the team anyway any and then because of that like almost any one of the team members can be on the phone because whoever's on the phone's got the support of seven people and we we can almost take our least trained negotiator and put them on a phone so that's in a way that's almost like the least important maybe not quite least important least technically skilled part of it probably if you're a coach as long as you're coachable be a you're coachable you're you're taking input from people on notes and plus while you're talking I mean you're looking around and maybe somebody's written something on a board and they point to that and then you say that like in Chase Manhattan Bank Robbery again in the book you know I'm on the I'm on the phone I'm talking to the guy and talk to the guy I'm working on them to really my my point is to get a hostage out which is what the hostage negotiator is supposed to do and somebody hands me a note and says ask him if he wants to come on and with somebody that was listening as it as it turned out I didn't even know at the time who was from I found out about I think I found out like three years later it was my friend Jamie Jamie Sudan yo Jamie is sitting there and something in Jamie's instincts is telling him that this guy wants to come out more than anything else he just hears it his radars picking it up our subconscious where our radar is is is literally 20 million times faster than our conscious and Jamie's subconscious his instinct is picked it up any rights asked him if he wants to come out and I see no popping in front of my face on where it came from doesn't matter so I go do you want to come out and there's a long silence on the other in the lion and the guy says which is a great big giant yes yeah a great big giant please figure out how to give me out yeah I want to come out but I don't want to get shot I don't want to get shot I want you beat up and as it turned out what he was really worried about he was worried about his buddy shoot him when he went out the door and then his co-conspirators laughter whatever yeah or as soon as he got out the door he thought the NYPD he was gonna catch a beating and he's like I don't know how I'd do it that's that's what we found out later on that was what all that meant so we continued to talk we continued to talk and when he says I don't know how I do that like everybody goes like holy cow okay get him out of there every woke us on getting him out I'm talking I'm talking I'm talking again pipe out I don't know maybe half an hour later no note comes in my hand I don't know where it's from as it turns out it's from Jamie again and the note says tell him you meet him outside and I say to him how about this how about if I meet you out from the bank yeah so did you walk up to the bank door not quite yeah I'm a customer yeah because normally first of all FBI doesn't do as a general rule we don't do face-to-face really yeah so so we're scrambling we decided I got to go out I don't have a bulletproof vest I don't have a ballistic helmet you know they're grabbing the vest from this guy in a grab and a helmet from this guy and I'm trying to put this stuff long and I'm scrambling to get outside and the plan once I get outside is I'm gonna stand behind one of the SWAT trucks it's got a PA on it and I'm gonna talk to him from the PA I'm not gonna walk up how was that better than the phone yeah who cares right I guess whew and felt better you know and we don't know what he's thinking so I and it was it actually was it was funny haha hostage story funny haha yeah the people inside are like this story is not funny but I get out there get on the PA I start talking to him at this point I still don't know this guy's name crazily enough that's the way it evolved so I said hi it's Chris I'm out here so SWAT standard operating procedure is to barricade the exit from the outside so bad guy suddenly doesn't run away so SWAT has barricaded the bank from the outside which everyone has forgotten so I'm trying to talk this guy out the door we don't know how many bad guys are inside we don't know how they're gonna react we don't know they're gonna start shooting we know what the hell's gonna happen he comes to the door and you thinking okay I was he rattles the door it was like he's nervous right I mean oh crap I'm trapped in here now they're on the outside we'll go now what do we do we forgot to unlock the door and with no plan of how to unlock the door so SWAT commander SWAT guys you know those guys don't get rattled you know they quickly they they scramble a couple guys ballistic shield these two guys get behind a ballistic shield you know they go up really really really really slow again we don't know how many bad guys are inside and we don't know what those gonna happen you know are they gonna see him if somebody can jump them who knows they just get up there real slow to get the key and let the door real slowly back away and Bobby comes out I'm trying to put myself in his shoes I don't know if I'd want to leave I you'd after I would have to trust you so much to be like yeah I'm gonna stroll out of here yeah sure I wanna I guess also I have no choice I'm stuck in a bank with a bunch of other criminals that I'm thinking of might shoot me too well you know I you know decision some people you know you make the decision I mean what holds you back from your decision your fears the big the biggest fear that was holding him back was that he was gonna get a serious seriously beaten when he came out did not happen and the fear the drove amount was he had come to the realization that every additional minute he stayed inside since he planned on coming out every additional minute he say stayed inside was gonna cost him jail time so the clock is tickin did you tell that you told him that was don't don't need him to think that realize that he's come to that conclusion on his own there's also since you don't know for sure what's gonna happen to the hostages that's not resolved yet he needs to get out of there before this goes bad on the inside so he's all sorts of losses are driving them to go out the door I don't want to be here when this goes bad I want to minimize my jail exposure every you know the status quo when the status quo costs you that's when you leave the status quo whether you're in a bank whether you're in a business deal that's most people don't make deals because they're comfortable with the status quo even if they shouldn't some boiling frog analogy you know you can turn the heat up on a frog and it'll stay they'll get comfortable when they should leave you have to be aware that the status quo is worse than the possibilities and that's when that's when people make decisions to change the status quo you highlight that for him like hey you know the longer this lasts the worse it's gonna be that seems like something I would hear at a movie with alright you highlight a but not like that right that seems you don't want him to panic right right right you don't want to sound like you're threatening right yeah that sure that makes sense so you you go back yeah you're gonna ask you how question I I might say something like look man and how can I go to the judge in your behalf if you don't come out that's saying the same thing but it's using how question again is really deferential and so you owe you always you confront people with how questions because it leaves them the option of the decision and they don't feel backed into a corner is this how you mentioned before slow things down is that what this is as well slowing things down bad physical questions yeah and we're slowing things down because we want them to feel that sense of control and not like this is moving so fast that they don't have Congrats it's it's the first and biggest reason the other thing too is you know Danny Kahneman wrote a book called Thinking Fast and Slow yeah slow thinking is in depth thinking you're using a how or what question to trigger in-depth thinking which also is exhausting so if it's my intention to gain the upper hand by exhausting you that's what I'm gonna do so you're creating more cognitive load for me to come up with this reason a law school some yeah yeah well I read Daniel Kahneman's book right yeah Thinking Fast and Slow will link to that in the show notes as well so I'm you're really making my brain do work right so that I'm eventually like just beat up tired yeah you're tired you're worn out and you own it you know Elmo strips ownership is is is the issue huh yeah this is this is really interesting because it seems like it's a really slow game of you're grinding these guys down a little bit but you can't make it seem like it you can't beat them up you have to let them just drain their energy reserves on their own yeah and principally again it's draining negative energy because you don't make good decisions in an angry state of mind you know there's an old saying you give a speech when your anger it's the best speech you'll ever regret yeah I've heard that I think probably from you but are there tricks then for getting into a positive emotional states when the states are I I mean you're you said optimism but do you want them in a positive emotional state as well well it would sequencing in context as a general rule in a crisis hostage situation you don't want to you know you don't want on your fork you just don't want them negative business the more positive frame of mind we're both in the better deal we're gonna make and the more likely we are to want to do another deal and that's probably the only the only flipside difference between business negotiation and hostage negotiation hostage negotiators at least 90 percent of the time I'm using the soothing calming voice they night if and the FM deejays less to calm you down slow you down and maybe 10% 5% I might have Anna beat voice selectively flip those for business 90% of the time I need to be upbeat 10% of the time I may need to say something like we can't do that instead of no so 10% you know for me to lay something out that I need you to think about in a serious way which it should be a minority of the time a small minority I'll use that's when I flip the voices that makes sense you're switching between this logical brain where they have to calculate something in crunch numbers or do something in their head and keeping their emotions engaged enough where they're happy to be there with you and they feel like it's a cooperative engagement yeah and and you're actually you have more mental ability in a positive frame of mind I mean that's the mindset of flow which is where optimum human performance is is highly positive okay so what about when somebody asks you for something impossible right this is one of the the top takeaways from never split the difference that how am I supposed to do that type situation but what happens when somebody asks you for something impossible business we can come up with an example easily but I'm thinking in hostage situations you hear this ridiculous stuff in movies all the time with they're like yeah we need a helicopter and a private jet and you know you need to drive the van around the like you're you know you're not gonna help these guys get into a helicopter landing on the roof of Chase Manhattan Bank it's not gonna happen but you can't say you're delusional man there's no chance of that happening you have to do something when faced with an unreasonable request how do you handle that how am I supposed to do that and then I mean that's that's the opening move what if they just say land the helicopter on the roof of the dam building and I'm saying but if I do that how are you gonna let the hostages go okay so it's always make them think make them think make them think right right huh yeah it's kind it's kind of crazy how it works I finally got it flipped on me once I'm in a we're doing a simulated terrorists prison takeover we're doing some training interestingly enough we weren't Jamaica and I'm playing a bad guy and I'm the most experienced negotiator fun I had a great time yeah plus I figure you know I I'm better than either my opinion I'm better than negotiate is on the other side okay and I'm saying you know you got a I'm holding these people you gotta let my colleagues out of jail and did ago shared on the other side says he wants to let them go and then it up until that moment the thought in my head that I hadn't thought it all the way through cuz it would be enough just to let him out of jail sure let him run around Kingstown yeah well they go half a mile and a wait for him and pick him up again it's not just how do I get him out of jail how do I make sure they get away I hadn't thought it all the way through and it never even occurred to me till they asked me that question in a simulation and I remember saying to myself I didn't think this all the way through so even you who kind of maybe developed a lot of his tactic it works yeah a good question makes you slow thinking Danny Kahneman thinking in depth thinking you become aware that you haven't thought it all the way through you immediately see it falling apart two steps further than you thought and that completely stops you in your tracks completely which is the point of the question stop the other side in their tracks so you pause I know that the formula this is like pause apologize mirror slash applies a question so can you break down that formula a little bit the the pause is clear and then you literally say sorry sorry Jordan but how am I supposed to do that is that is that kind of how this is applied yeah yeah and it's that simple it is as stupid as it sounds absolutely so your girlfriend and kid must use this on you all the time you know it's a great way of letting somebody know also it's another way of saying you just asked him possible with me you know it forces good how am I supposed to do that question forces the person being asked to take a hard look at exactly what they're asking the other person to do now they might not change their mind that's not the point the point is to get him to stop and think okay cuz I'm thinking people right now are going wait a minute they're just gonna tell me exactly how they expect me to do that but that's okay well two things first of all everybody imagines it yeah that's how it simulates in my head right that's how everybody simulates in in your head now slightly out of nine out of ten times it doesn't work out that way and so we got a lot of people Wow well one kind of doesn't realize there that you success percentages you'd be happy with those percentages if you went to Vegas you got a gambling system if are you gonna do is it works more than 51% of the time or more and pretty soon they're renaming the casino after you right sure yeah so again or you're banned from the casino which is more like but every now and then somebody on the other side says because you have to if you want the deal that's actually a great answer because everybody's job is the negotiators find out how far we can push the other side without driving words from the table right and when somebody says if you want the deal you'll do it you now know that's as far as we go what happens when people get angry this is probably happening far less in business situations but I would imagine hostage negotiators or people who work hotshot stage takers they get pissed off they're like look man I'm the one with the gun I'm the one with the civilians stop jerking me around I'm tired of answering your stupid questions I'm hungry I'm tired it's hot in here quit asking me stupid stuff and his which should completely baked your brain hostage negotiations are calm more than business negotiations okay how is that even possible I haven't run into a single business negotiator doesn't have at least five stories of somebody on the other side screaming at him slam the door calling them names refusing to call names on a phone constantly everybody's got those stories yes hostage negotiators have one too okay why is that the case well again because as soon as the other side feels listen to why get mad and a hostage negotiator starts listening right away business negotiation we sit down I go like I ain't interested in what I you had to say you're gonna listen to me right I hold all the cards I gotta win my boss needs to see me as the smart guy in the room yeah yeah we don't do that as hostage we calm people down real fast how do you do that for first its voice I mean FM DJ voice i FM DJ voice actually what does that really mean before I finish the sentence if you can see me or if you could hear me and if we're on the phone you could hear me my tone of voice has gone in and hit something in your brain called mirror in there runs those mirror neurons have triggered an actual chemical reaction in your brain chemicals are being dumped into your brain and into your system that slow you down before I've even finished a sentence that's how that happens and that works even with like psychopath sociopath type folks that don't maybe everybody's got mirror and everybody's got mirror neurons okay I was I'm not sure on that I you're probably right I haven't the psychopaths the sociopath that's a result of principally of conditioning nobody's contending that there are functional physical things missing from their brains they're talking about something happened in their development interestingly enough there was a there was a syndrome the reason why people hold babies and hospitals and in orphanages now because if children aren't held enough in the first year of their life they have that's when they learned how to bond and if you haven't been held enough in the first year in many children and orphanages or abandoned or in hospitals for extended periods of time are not picked up and held they haven't learned how to bond so they end up with developmental stuff they they have issues in the rest of the life bonding with people and if so that something is absent that after they were born okay I think I vaguely remember reading about this it's just been a while some of those these books all blur together after a while especially there especially with all the junk science out so you just need to read one book yeah just one just never split the difference boss I'm imagining well I guess that's the book you recognize in two thing that you should mention yeah that's my idea I think I came up with that you identify and label emotions when people are feeling them to calm him down I read that I thought that was a brilliant tactic it's how does this work in practice I'm screaming at you stop asking me stupid freaking questions send in the pizza and two million dollars I'm gonna start whacking some of these dumb kids I got here you know stuck on this Bank what are you doing to calm me down at this point yes you're listening but what else I mean I'm just pissed off it's been 13 hours I got nothing left in the tank I'm over it I'm gonna say I'm gonna say sounds like you're mad at this whole situation it sounds like you want to get out of there and what does that do the labeling what does that do to my lizard brain the simplicity of it will obscure how effective it is what I'm actually trying to do if I say something that sounds like when that hit your pitch your brain you actually ask yourself is that the way it sounds it triggers a thought in your brain like a logical aural of rational and identify and will it triggers an identification a labeling of it if you will it causes you to contemplate it sort of as an issue decide what you're thinking they did a the book is the upward spiral they I wish to remember the author's name they did an actual experiment they induced negative emotions in people by showing pictures picture made him scared and sad made him lonely wherever it is they're monitoring the neural activity I show you picture to makes you angry and a specific part of the brain lights up it's a portion of the amygdala where the negative emotions are housed and that lights up the electrical activity is going crazy crazy crazy I show you the picture and I just say what are you feeling and looking at it if you're feeling afraid you say I was feeling of afraid and they the part of the brain that was lighting up now stops lighting up so labeling the emotion blunts it or gets rid of a triggering of contemplating the emotion not denying it not suppressing it not pushing it not trying to get rid of it anywhere just a triggering of an awareness of a negative and every time they did that that portion of the brain that was lighting up stop lighting up not some of the time every time so if I say it sounded like it just tired of being here that causes you to think about it and the part of you that was frustrated tired annoyed it doesn't you don't mean for it to happen but that part of the brain stops lighten up what if it's a positive emotion do I not want to label it then that's the stupid thing because positives then reinforce positives so I do want to so I want to label negative emotions too blunt them and label positive emotions to really it's like the North and South Pole of a magnet has the opposite effect complete exact same device complete opposite effect huh why is that that I haven't you know well first of all I don't know why it caused the negative part of the amygdala to shut off I just know it did you know and they said there's so much of the brain they got no idea why it works they just know it's there a little bit like gravity we really have no idea how gravity works nobody's jumping off you ain't gonna go jump off the Empire State Building because gravity is still gonna be yeah I don't think it works today yeah I don't understand it therefore I'm not gonna hit the ground right so it's still there and the emotional reactions in our brain are very much like them you know do we completely understand them but their effects are unmistakable from practice the effects of labeling positives are unmistakable if if you say I want a car and a million dollars a car means you want to escape you want to live I'll say it sounds like you want to get out of this okay so that will reinforce your positive desire to live yeah so you're not necessarily even sounds like you're reading between the lines you're not saying okay let's talk about the car let's talk about the money you're actually reading their intention instead of what they're actually the more you read between the lines are more powerfully effective huh because you're telling them why you're actually let me repeat that why is that the case well it you know it's it's triggering the recognition inside and again this is a gravity issue I just know works and we see it on a regular basis and we see it actually kind of in really funny ways his is a great one with customer service people because they're they're battered children right you call customer service as in everybody it's a dream that all day every day you know we wonder why they're in a bad mood they're getting screamed that all day every day I'm gonna phone with this woman and I'm not doing a great job and she's like give me short answers she's barely standing on a phone or tone is really clipped and well she's got me on hold on trying to fix an airline take it with no fees sure I can I can just imagine her turning to her colleagues and saying this guy's lucky I'm on the phone with him at all mm-hmm all right so let's go into bizarro world you know tactical empathise what's the other side to you not what's your view or what's true tactical empathy is what now tactical empathy is what we use in the book Daniel Goleman would call it cognitive empathy we call it tactical because since we know how the brain works we might as well use in a tactical fashion so if she's saying that I'm lucky that she's talking to me at all in her view of the world she's being generous oh I see so she gets back on the phone with me and the first thing out of my mouth is I appreciate how generous you've been with me so far and I can feel her mood instantly change and her tone instantly changed and she says I give me another moment to look into this yeah turns out I can solve your problem pretty easily I just didn't want to but you don't want to be fear of course why she puts this she put cuz this guy's been a jerk like everybody else but I you know I lines I know there's a positive emotion in there that if I can punch it if I can hit that target and tile it up it's a pretty good chance you're gonna change your mind and that's exactly what happened she's not in a limit I something else I got a chair she puts me on hold she comes back on all frees away they get the ticket changed so we reinforce people's what current opinion of themselves or we just try to read their mind in the moment and then tell them what yeah well yeah it's it's all kind of gonna be implied its current opinion of themselves depending upon which you want to reinforce you know what what what do they tell themselves in a moment you know if if they're acting stingy then their view is if you're lucky to have any other time they're actually being generous you know sometimes it with a little practice you can hear around this stuff pretty fast and that's really all it takes it's just practice huh okay I like that example a lot actually so this dovetails nicely with what you call the Black Swan rule which is don't treat other people the way you want to be treated treat them the way they need to be treated right yeah so can you flush that out or is that kind of what we just talked about or is there more to it no it's it's really more that you know the assumption that everybody assumes they're normal when in fact at best you may be normal with the third other people out there so you get into this thing called well I'm going to treat you the way I want to be treated you know if I'm gonna sort of I want answers so give me answers and I think I'm treating you the way I want to be treated I like people to be direct with me I'm gonna be direct with you well that's probably not true you know you you may not want to be spoken to that directly that bluntly if I'm doing a Golden Rule I like to be asked I love clarity I claim I crave clarity I once had colleagues say that I I crave clarity Eric Barker writes a fantastic blog and book of the same name barking up the wrong tree he's his clarity's violence you know trying to try to get clear let's get clear about this it often is perceived as a very violent exchange verbal exchange so you know you got to be real careful about assuming the how you're wired is how somebody else is why because you can put something on them that they just might not resonate with so we try to read what they need and give them what they need instead of assuming that they need the same things as us exactly okay yeah and what sort of principal factors do you look for you look for the communication style whether they were assertive cooperative was the other one five five make friends fight fly to make friends okay yeah yeah yeah well you know really to some degree everybody's gonna want to be heard out you know which is everybody wants to be heard that's why I show up in a negotiation I want you to hear me so I if I start hearing you out plus it's gonna give me a good read on which of the types you are you know have you thought through every detail you pride yourself on the details have you done a lot of research on me cuz you pride yourself on relationships are you really firm on what you want cuz you pride yourself on getting what you want those are basically the three times you know so I'm gonna let you start talking and I'm gonna I'm gonna start to get a real clear feel for where you are plus also when I see maybe some holes if I adapt to how you are you're gonna let me show them to you you know where does this not add up well the book is loaded with very detailed negotiation examples from both hostage situations and business situations there's a lot more than we could get to here and it's I think it's probably got to be one of the most widely regarded books on negotiation even if even if you do say so yourself so thank you very much for your time my pleasure thanks for you you

Channel: THE JORDAN HARBINGER SHOW

Views: 214,726

Rating: 4.8602004 out of 5

Keywords: Chris voss, hostage negotiator, negotiating, never split the difference, never split the difference summary, how to negotiate, chris voss negotiation, negotiation skills, negotiate, emotional intelligence, podcast, interview, lifelong learning, the jordan harbinger show, jordan harbinger, soft skills, social science, social influence, social psychology, personal development, self development, podcast full episode, chris voss podcast, chris voss interview, chris voss masterclass

Id: GwKoxnIvZJI

Length: 77min 25sec (4645 seconds)

Published: Tue Feb 26 2019