Chris Voss | Negotiating As If Your Life Depended On It | The Wolf's Den #105

[Music] hey everyone jb here the real wolf of wall street in the wolves devil another awesome episode here now sometimes i spend 10 or 15 minutes giving my version of the world and some what was on my mind for the day because i feel like doing that but today i have such a cool important guest someone i think was has information that's so vital i'm not gonna say anything other than you need to meet this man chris voss former fbi negotiator extraordinaire in many books never split the differences one you might have heard of we have an incredible conversation where we really dig into this idea of what's the difference between sales and negotiation and where do they overlap how are they different it's really powerful stuff you want to miss a second of it first a quick worse from our sponsors to pay the bills and then you listen to chris voss and i go at it and it is worth the price admission all right so i want to tell you guys about one of my favorite parts of every morning and that's when i have my athletic greens right now athletic greens is offering a free one-year supply of vitamin d and five free travel packs for the wolf then listeners you'll basically never have to buy vitamin d again simply visit slash athleticgreens.com to get started with this limited time offer again simply visit athleticgreens.com bonus and get your free year supply of vitamin d and five free travel packs all right so chris vos thanks for coming on uh you obviously are an expert in negotiation right and i want to get right to that and discover and dig into some of the things about like you know how does negotiation differ from sales and persuasion or are they one in the same or is it a different side of the same coin here so let's start with the fact of like how would you say negotiations differs from a sale yeah you know that's one of the questions that we struggle with all the time they're they're so closely interlinked i think uh potentially in the sales you know me being a negotiator maybe sales a little more involved in creating the initial attraction which then begins to when does that become marketing i don't know but as as soon as you as soon as i want or i need or in anybody's head in my view you're in a negotiation so do i need cooperation do i need collaboration do i need somebody else to do something i see that as a negotiation i'm not sure that i could draw a clear distinct line between the two what about you i think the way i would look at is okay so when i'm in a sales setting i always say you have the first four seconds that first impression is critical because it establishes that unconscious thing are you an expert in your field are you a novice are you sharp or so would you say those first four seconds are equally important in negotiation yeah i mean we often refer i usually refer to it as the first seven seconds what do you have to establish in the first seven seconds what are those elements and then how do you establish those those elements there's one thing to know what they are and completely another one to be able to establish exactly right right exactly so right if i make fun of that i said you know i've been saying it's four seconds since i think in 1988 and then harvard did a study that at seven seconds like well i guess i was wrong but i beat him by 25 years so i feel pretty good about it you know because i've been saying that always that was one of the reasons why i enjoyed reading your book because you're not being an academic to start off with yours you know regardless you know let's take out morality all the other external nonsense out of it you're phenomenally successful period in a time period before this stuff was established via academic rigor so you got gutter instinct you know what is your gut instinct and so if your gut instinct was telling you 25 years ago it was four seconds you got a few seconds exactly right you get great exactly i think you're good my gut was and and the reason was that was that unless in those first few seconds whatever they are they don't they don't like you know have that right sense of you they will try to take control of the conversation and so the next step i would say so we both agree whether it's the negotiation or sale the first few seconds critical and the reason for me that it's so critical from a sales point of view is that it establishes you as an expert that allows you to control the flow of the encounter because if if they perceive you as a novice they will try to flow the control the flow is it the same in a go in the negotiation close um and what what defines control like you know i like to say a secret to gaining the upper hand that a negotiation is giving the other side the illusion of control i mean in a negotiation in particular at some point in time there's going to be autonomy issues the other side's got to feel autonomous so they're going to push back so if i give you the illusion of control your autonomy is never going to be threatened and therefore we could i could guide you you know what's guiding what's controlling semantics is what we're talking about and yeah sure what what do you call it what do i call what ex what would you explain what you mean by um the um sort of like the the illusion of control like from a sales perspective it would be that an office salesperson thinks that control means you're doing all the talking when in reality control in sales means you've asked a really important question and they're talking and you're listening you're in contr you know they're talking you're actually in control because they're answering a question that you ask so is that very similar to negotiation or different yeah you know i would talk about i want to trigger specific thought process on your side you know i and i might want to get a very specific sequence of thoughts going on your side you're talking about asking a question in order to trigger thinking in the other side i'm trying to trigger very specific types of thinking in the other side got it so very similar again right and is there a certain point in time and also one of the things that i teach in sales is that it's very important that it's not just your body language when you ask a question it's how you respond both tonally and body language as you listen so it's all those [Music] the interaction while someone else is talking that lets them know you understand them you feel their pain it makes sense you're in the same sphere of understanding is that part of what you know you think is important in negotiation about a thousand percent and that was one of the things when i read your book that i thought was a really brilliant part of it is having never interacted with you before i figured you were a master of tonality right which is important for sure and also but tonality when you're listening as well like i think people forget that it's when like it's really important i think when you ask someone a question and they answer and as they're answering you're like [Music] oh yup got it like and that shows them that you understand them you're on the same page so to speak yeah you're encouraging them you're making them feel good about the interaction you're making them feel regard and respect exactly it means they want to talk some more right you let them talk themselves out of your deal and then the next spot is there a certain point in negotiating when you say okay we've kind of gotten to the to this point where i know what i need to know i've asked what i have to ask and you have to say well it's time for solutions so to speak of like here's the deal is there a certain like crossover point yeah well it got instinct i mean is the other side talked enough so that we've laid out a pretty good deal on the table between the two of us you know if we have we got the have we got the elements here for a great deal a great you know deal that you're going to love a deal that you're going to feel good about uh yeah and so then i'm i'm going to i'm going to set it up if i'm ready to move forward there's a pretty good chance again we're going to go back to this whole idea of questions if i think we're at the part where we should move forward start cutting this deal i'm going to say some of the effect of how do you want to proceed what's the next step what's the next best step i'm going to cheat on a question where i'm trying to trigger your thinking let's go back now to just a pure negotiation first of all how did you get into this did you like did you was it an accidental pathway like you just sort of stumbled in on one day you said you know what i want to be a negotiator and you know i mean i guess you're in the fbi and how did that come about yeah i know it was definitely accidental plan b as a result of something really bad like the best things in my life that happened to me came as a result of what externally seemed like a bad thing so i was fbi swat uh tried out for the bureau's hostage rescue team which is fbi equivalent of the navy seals a lot of them are former seals re-injured my knee realized and had had it reconstructed yet again you know realizing that i'm in there right now by the way going through that right now with my knee i can't believe you just said that okay keep going disastrous like i feel your pain yeah yeah exactly so but i'm like all right so i love crisis response because i like decisions you know in crisis people have to make decisions this dithering of inaction drives me crazy so we had hostage negotiators i didn't know what they did it didn't sound that hard you know i could do that i could talk to terrorists how hard could it be and so i just i want to stay in crisis response and i made the shift rather difficult one was initially rejected to be a hostage negotiator but i found my way there anyway i i guess there's the questions that i want to ask you because i feel like i'm like a a 10 year old boy speaking to a police officer and i want to know the suit and there's the ones i think that are more appropriate to ask on this podcast that will give people the most value but i have to ask you at least one of the questions that like any young boy would ask what's the coolest thing that ever happened to you like what's the craziest thing that ever happened to you as an fbi hostage in the ocean give me something like really a great amazing story just for the hell of it just one all right so you know we uh we set up outside uh of an apartment where some fugitives in a 27th floor of a high rise in harlem back when harlem was a tough place you know not all gentrified like it is now and we we took the we took the circus and we you know we took swat we took everybody and we were sure that these guys were not there now they were they had been involved in a shootout with automatic weapons just a couple days before we figured the sounds of the circus coming up the stairs they're going to be long gone we spoke to that apartment they didn't say a word for six straight hours one-way dialogue and at one point in time before we knew they were inside one of the swat guys said to me like if i was inside i had to come out you're doing a great job and about six hours in one of the snipers on a nearby building said we just saw a curtain move and we were sure it was empty now we know these guys are inside bottom line we talked all three of them out they never said a word they come out in utter silence we talked all of them out six hours of non-responsive one-way dialogue they all surrendered that was a great feeling how did you without that was that a strategy that you ran or is it just sort of finding your way hit or miss now you know you got a basic offense a basic game plan one of them is repetition the other is the hostage negotiator's voice which is a late night fm dj voice yes you got who you got by the if you by the way i was gonna say if you don't do this you could definitely have gone and be like carol what was the name of carol king on at 95.5 wplj and you got that great dj's voice for sure i get to get dj's voice it's a soothing voice but then basically you know to use sales terms we talked to them about what the clothes would look like for six hours which i said when you come on you kind of come out with your hands first gonna make sure that we can see you so that nothing bad happens to you you're gonna move out slowly nobody's gonna hurt you you're gonna be treated with dignity and respect so we're painting this picture of a peaceful surrender where nobody gets hurt right six hours and finally they're like well these guys aren't going away i might as well come out and not get hurt and they came right she just wore them down basically repetition and sort of language patterns those hypnotic language patterns where you're just implanting that same thoughts again and again and again yeah yeah and then like we use the total three negotiators and every time because we switched out you know i talked for about an hour and i'd hand it off somebody else and i'd say you know emilia's getting ready to come on now he's gonna talk to you and we're not going away and then when i came back an hour later i said all right it's chris again it's like i said we're not leaving we're not going away till you come out and we're just not going to go away and ultimately when they came out it was kind of funny i said and i said to him you didn't speak for the whole time why you know why didn't you talk why don't you say something and they said well we wanted to get away and i said well then why did you come out and they said well you kept saying you weren't going away so we finally believed you and decided what is there a particular hollywood movie that you would say best captures what it is an fbi hostage negotiator really does well you know let's say negotiators overall i mean the negotiator was samuel jackson and kevin spacey that was the closest now yeah there's a few fundamental flaws there but we used to actually occasionally use clips from from that movie as teaching points so it was it was as close as anything i've seen hollywood do got it and what's the worst like typical what's the worst characterization die hard you know unfortunately guys yeah oh yeah we need two more fbi guys right [Laughter] you know uh i bruce willis who i think is a wonderful actor you know he was in some negotiators movie that i i couldn't the first three minutes of that i couldn't i couldn't watch anymore like which one was that you know i can't i can't i it was so it was so horrible you know god bless him he's out he's out there he's a phenomenal actor and also right there yeah great actor yeah he's only reading a bad one he didn't write he didn't write the script so it's not his fault exactly that one was better eddie murphy and metro i think well you know he runs inside right away you know to talk to the bad guys i guess that's a good way to get people killed do you want you want to stay away from that idea now i think i saw another movie like that recently the fbi just goes he just look he's like the great he just walks right in that's his methodology that's going to get people killed right and unfortunately it has i mean every you know every couple years some some sheriff someplace or some chief of police because they saw it on tv they say i'm going to go here and talk to him myself and they go in they get shot and then then you know the guy's family says well you know he saw it on tv like yeah well it got him killed didn't it again i'm intrigued by more of the fbi stuff for the stake of great stories but i also want to get the business parallels to that in the world of business and sales but i mean just like in terms of like let's just starting with fbi or like that hostage negotiations what's what are your like what are the first like you know rules of thumb step one step two step three step four step five is it is it go like that yeah no you know we're gonna to we're going to want to get the conversation started as quickly as we can uh because as soon as the other side starts to hear my voice from that moment on i got influence so i might as well start building my influence right away i got i got an opening line and after that it's complete ad-lib but there are certain things that i'm trying to do which is calm them down reassure them start painting a picture of coming out safely got it so basically we're not leaving and the only way out you know come out come out slowly calmly we're gonna be show you dignity respect no one's gonna hurt you basically right it's an easy peaceful showing of painting a picture of a way out that doesn't have them or the people that they're with end up dead and complicate whatever they've already done wrong basically right yeah exactly don't want to complicate it you don't want to retain dignity i mean the reality is i mean the reality really is you never know what a jury's going to do at a trial so no matter what you've done you got a shot at mitigating it you know when i was in new york in the early days william counselor famous radical attorney i remember him he he got you know uh uh el say no sir assassinated mark kahani the founder of the jewish defense league i remember the whole thing happened it was i remember that yeah sure counselor is no serious attorney gets no ser acquitted of shooting kahani at the state trial nosa shot kahani in front of witnesses gets no ser acquitted a shooting of the murder he gets convicted on being in possession of the gun to kill kahani but he doesn't get convicted of the murder how was that it convinced them uh counselor came up with a story that uh noser as a as an an arab was standing next to kahani when he got shot and everybody said get the arab and so no ser shot his way out out of self-defense because he was gonna get blamed for the murder and cunter spun a good enough yarn that that the reasonable doubt yeah sounds like during nullification more than anything else um uh how many years are you with the fbi 24. did you know agent coleman who is now a friend of mine i love the guy who the guy who chased me and that got me indicted that's why you were you're in that was a white collar days man that white car investigations that's that's too complicated for me you need somebody way smarter than me to catch somebody he was the most daughter he was actually a friend of mine i had great respect for him but he was the most dogged determined guy and you know it's really interesting is that my perception of the fbi was so positive always like after dealing with them i dealt with them right and they were you know i never had anything to say like yeah i deserve what i got and they were you know even when they picked me up my house they were like really respectful they didn't read my house they they like you know actually let me my kids were there like hey you want to go inside and you know get yourself put your kids upstairs like i don't really you're left with a really positive taste as i would expect you would it's you know like you know like i'm an american i'm not going to kill them right do you think that that something has gone wrong with the fbi in the sense that like with these sort of things that happened like with like in the last five years or was it just sort of extreme examples of a couple of cases that were maybe not what we all know and that it's still the way it was rank and file the fbi the real fbi exists at the street level racket file ranking file that hasn't changed agents want to make cases agents want to treat people with dignity and respect you know a friend of mine wrote a book called the threat matrix about the bureau under mueller and i turned him on to some of the right people to talk to brad yeah uh not brad gad um uh his name will come back to me but so i'm helping him uh because he he put together the case uh behind 9 11 in the investigation of that so i said to him afterwards all right so what's your opinion of fbi headquarters now that you've had a good hard look at headquarters and he says to me the fbi has always succeeded despite fbi headquarters so the rank and file fbi agents solid people has not changed want to put bad guys in jail that's it don't care who the bad guys are don't care don't worry about 100 100 that was my experience and so i think it's really concentrated at the top and you think it's gotten more political in the last 10 years or it's always been that way no and it's not it's not it's not political either i mean it's it's a function of bureaucracy and nobody likes bureaucracy so no matter what side of the aisle you're on whether you're republican you're democrat whether you're vegan you're not going to like it the decisions that a bureaucracy makes overall it's just bureaucracy it's not political i'm telling you well the biography always like acts to protect itself more than anything else it's like it's about self-protection not so much protection for one party or another just protecting in the bureaucracy right so itself it's almost self-serving and self-reinforcing and almost like all these bureaucracies become an exaggeration of themselves what they ended up starting they it had a good purpose to start but the bureaucracy self-reinforces and protects and ends up as an exaggeration of their own ethical message and anything too much to an extreme becomes no good is that kind of what happened do you think and and really the proof that it's really apolitical because who wasn't unhappy with james comey the republicans and the democrats they were both mad at him i mean that tells you somebody's apolitical when both sides are angry with him well well like the fact that he like with hillary clinton like a few weeks before announcing that was like you'd say was he working for trump you would have thought like the odd thing was is right it's like it really was so odd the whole thing anyway let's get to the good stuff here which is really i want you as a master of negotiation to really give us like in the business world now like what is it i know it and again i know like i have a theory every sale is the same but of course you know meaning that there are certain key elements that must line up and i'm sure the same is of negotiations but everyone is different within that that sort of you know that matrix that there are variables but the way you handle them is always basically saying my goal is a sales process to corral it as much as possible and move it from one point to another open to close so i assume it's pretty similar from your perspective with negotiations so what are your steps if you can lay them out like sort of you know five you know you started on some already but like you know your sort of steps for how you go about in the business world getting the best deal possible whatever you do yeah well i i want to establish a great relationship so that you're comfortable working with me and i want to gather up as much information as possible because there's always a better deal to be had always always always how do i find that deal i got to get you comfortable enough to deal with me so that you start telling me stuff you're scared to tell anybody else you know the stuff that you're hiding because it's going to have you're scared it'll make you vulnerable if it'll make you vulnerable there's also great opportunity there all right so i want to tell you guys about one of my favorite parts of every morning and that's when i have my athletic greens listen athletic greens is my absolute favorite nutritional supplement gives me an extra boost for the day if you know anything about me then you know that personal performance is a very high priority for me one scoop of athletic greens i get that feeling that tingling sensation when you're bringing your body are really firing off together perfectly and that's why i know i'm ready to go out and close at the highest level possible as a salesperson as an entrepreneur as a businessman makes sense so whether you're training for a marathon you're trying to lose a few pounds or you want to elevate your energy and your focus athletic greens is for you and if your results are anything like mine i can virtually guarantee you'll have that extra edge in performance that sets you apart and here's the deal right now athletic greens is offering a free one-year supply of vitamin d and five free travel packs for the wolf then listeners you'll basically never have to buy vitamin d again simply visit athleticgreens.com bonus to get started with this limited time offer again simply visit athleticgreens.com bonus and get your free year supply of vitamin d and five free travel packs give me an example you said before you brought up a great point which is something that pisses me off with so many people that teach sales or negotiation that don't recognize what you said is that it's one thing to say it's the first four seconds it's nothing to know how to do it right like like some people say oh yeah you gotta be you gotta get it for how i'm like right so i'm a big believer in my book i i show you exactly from my perspective and sales how you go about doing that and i get really granular right and i know that you probably appreciate that because you do the same so what are your strategies as a negotiator for like how do you uncover and this in this instance you put a great point because i say there's these intangibles almost these things of value they have massive value to the other side but maybe not so much value to you that's a huge opportunity in negotiation right how do you drag those things out of someone else without breaking one of our favorite ones that we really use a lot is i get you correcting me i'll say stuff wrong on purpose now most people won't do that because they think i gotta know everything i can't be corrected i can't be wrong being wrong is embarrassing most people would rather die than be embarrassed give me an example that's a that's a great idea give me an example of that like i like what you would do like say something wrong on purpose give me an example i'll say you know it seems like jim on your side of the table is really against this you're if jim is in favor of it you're going to go like no no no no jim's good jim's good it's bob who's against it now you just gave me information i had never gotten out of you otherwise that you shouldn't have told me ever you just drew bob effectively but i'm not going to hurt bob now now i got a great diagnosis where the problems are and you're never going to regret telling me that because your correction for me a corrections embarrassment for you it feels great would it be also like what you do with like price it sounds like maybe you guys this is a bit above your budget like that's kind of what's balling you say no no will you use it for that or more for like you know how far would you go with that sort of strategy as your gun instinct i know it tells you price isn't the issue the issue is value so somebody pushes and and if if that's the case then changing the price is not going to make it a better deal so i need to know what's going to make it a better deal so i'll say if you've got a problem with price i'm going to say boy it sounds like the value's just not there for you again there's a correcting motion uh reaction on your your part and you probably say like yeah well you know now you bring it up x y z here's where the problems are now i got an opportunity to fix this and there's a real chance that the way you want it fixed is actually going to increase my profit there's enough of a chance that i want to find out how you want it fixed first right would you say that the biggest mistake that people make in negotiation is they don't take the time to find out the things that are really important to the other side they almost use their own map of the world and assume they can play mind reading games like they're the great kresgen they know what the other person wants they know the things that matter to them and then focusing and negotiating the focus on the wrong elements of the negotiation would you say that's very common uh i agree 100 that may be one of the biggest problems you know anybody that's whatever whatever they're in if they've been doing it for one six months they want to show how smart they are which means they're not getting information from the other side right so do you typically um when you teach negotiation do you have a formal like sort of like the abcs of this stuff that you how many steps have you brought have you broken it down the steps like just discerning steps like that we teach more skill based stuff and adaptability is skills got it um there is there is a basic progression but the more you get focused on steps per se which i know that you've run into this people get real focused on the steps and they stop paying attention to the other side and accuse the other side's giving them my issue was when i first invented the system i teach it was the people who weren't really that intelligent i was teaching the kids that really barely clawed their way out of high school how to be really simple you know so it's like step one step two but you're right in this in the sense that one of the things that i always make sure that i also reinforce is the fluidity that in other words that just you know yes like in a perfect world you know this happens and that happens then that happens and that happens then adam's and that happens right but in reality in the real world what often happens is you are moving around these steps in sort of you have these boundaries above and below that represent the wiggle room that in the natural flow of an encounter you can't it's not just going to be a b c d yeah once in a while you get a perfect sale like that or a perfect negotiation where they just are just right on board but there's that wiggle room so you so what you do is you really focus on the actual skills and strategies that would really apply to any aspect of the negotiation right that's is that part of what you like you're the cornerstone of what you're teaching these are general skills that are always important in negotiating yeah get get the basics of the skills down and as you repeat them over and over again it's like ad-libbing music suddenly you can ad-lib in the moment it's why michael wheeler who's a friend colleague teaches at harvard business school he actually has a jazz musician come into his negotiation classes to give people uh the idea of improv and add living in the moment you know how i explain it great it's a great analogy i explain it by saying imagine it's like a box a train of box cars and the way they all connect together is you you as long as you know what the front and the back you have the front and the back down pat if those are lock step you can latch on the front to any back and the back to any front so that's right when i teach people it's like you you don't have to know everything that happens like it can't be wrote as you said in the middle but if i as long as i know the entry point and exit point from each step so what happens if you if you know the advice there's a lot of language patterns right and and you need to make sure what i find with sales people that aren't natural sales people is they don't have it memorized like a one sentence or two their conscious mind is so caught up in the words that they can't use their unconscious mind like they get this they get locked up so what i do is i get them to remember it's just the last line of a certain pattern so when they start to end one chunk of of us of a sale they're or their unconscious mind takes over and they start thinking about okay now where am i going next where am i going next where am i going so as they're talking they're actually as a pro like you and i were naturals right we're talking and you're already you're talking and at the end you already you know where you're going next you're your mind's working in two directions at once here right so what we do is we try to teach people how to like almost know each piece but make sure you know the beginning and the end really well and then you can start like you said improvising and creating beautiful music by moving the cars around one this way that way right you see it's very kind of a very similar idea yeah and and that sort of instruction you're trying to give people enough comfort levels so that they're not afraid now they can think in the moment instead of being overcome by fear exactly give me an example of a of a business um you have to get with the name but just like an industry that you've like when you entered in in negotiation you could you know make it generic something like a great example if you can say a proc that's great too where you really helped them you know how powerful it was like how you went in there in a tough negotiation and really made a huge difference you kind of lay that out you could leave names out if you have to wow you know i mean i'm sure there's so many but i want to get a good one a good story no we you know one of my guys uh coached a negotiation one was trying to settle with an insurance company and they actually had two weeks left when the insurance company didn't have to pay them at all because they drug their feet so long on a on a payment and not only was it two weeks left but it was mid-december which means all they had to do was run out the clock and how often can you get anybody to do anything in december because it's the holidays nobody's working anyway so we we coached uh on the approach and they settled they had previously offered two thousand dollars and they settled on december 23rd for twenty five thousand dollars when if they'd have waited another week they wouldn't had to pay him a dime but it was it was a legitimate insurance claim and the insurance rep on the other side was a human being and human beings want to do the right things to give given the opportunity and how did you what was the strategy that you used to expedite the the settlement yeah well the strategy that gets in anybody's decision-making way are negative emotions you know your emotional wiring your survival mode is 75 negative so if i shut down the negatives by simply articulating them that's going to be the fastest way to shut them down so we had this person say you know i'm probably looking like a money grubber who's been lazy who's delayed who's been unresponsive who doesn't care about the insurance company and probably doesn't even need the money suddenly they're in a conversation because what's the insurance person on the other side how these people are money grubbers they don't need the money they're lazy they've been unresponsive they don't care about me so you deactivate their negative perceptions of you by simply stating them fearlessly and people suddenly go like wow now you're in a conversation you know what's amazing is that one of the core strategies of the straight line is literally directly that so what we have we call it i call it um you know lowering someone's action threshold where i say that and i always say that we're fear-based creatures i just it's funny that we say the same things in different ways you know like you know it's wired into our reptilian brain the fear is first like that it's the fear of loss the downside people always look at the downside first and one of the biggest mistakes that sales people make and i noticed from my own dad it was he was the toughest person to sell to in the world and the reason was is that when he was faced with a buying decision you know we always run two movies well if i say yes what's my best outcome or if i say yes what's my worst what's the downside and most people will go heavily to the like you know so the point is if i say to my dad well what's the worst that can happen if i don't tell him he will say he'll be dead destroyed living in the street embarrassed vilified by his friends embarrassed in front of him like he'll create this crazy narrative in his own mind and go heavily to the negative as someone who doesn't like to buy stuff versus actually you saying verbalizing something here's what's worse could happen you lose a few dollars right you know you're cashing your money-back guarantee and you know you can fire me as your broker and we'll partners friends not going to be the end of the world right someone's like same thing you're disarming their negative narrative by actually stating it here's the bring it out here's the word but it's and once you've done they're like yeah well that's true they say but on the upside then you start actually running the upside benefits which these people never really do like so like my father who hates to buy stuff he runs a very long negative downside movie very short positive upside ones so what you do is you almost hijack their strategy by saying well listen here's the downside let me just tell you and you know you say right disabled yeah i guess so they never do that i say but on the upside then you run the long upside moving they typically never do and it has a dramatic impact on getting people to buy or i guess in your case to settle so it's really interesting to me that how similar the processes are where you could find these little parallels all the way through yeah exactly and a sequence that you outlined is critical you got to take care of the negative first totally you can unleash the positive positive gets ridiculously powerful exactly out of the way yeah it's it's amazing so it's so funny as you said like i did this in an unschooled intuitive way and you know and then many years as you you've done and then you and you've studied there is like all these sort of different supporting bodies of knowledge of how people really you know think and how the brain actually works and makes decisions have you ever studied nlp at all neuro linguistic programming yeah i never have i've gotten so much feedback that there are a lot of parallels and overlap that's why you study it i just never had yeah i mean it's interesting there are and i think you would probably all i i doubt you learn anything new really what you would say is ah yeah yep i agree with that i agree with that yeah that's a bit you know nlp is is um is can be really powerful the problem with nlp is mostly that it's it's used it's it's misused by people who don't really know how to use it like it's too easy to become certified in nlp and oh yeah i'm certified it's like you're getting a cracker jack box that's the problem but for those that really do know how to use it it's powerful stuff because it is all the same you know some of these you know you know very you know powerful strategies and then it gets down you know how well can you really apply them um would you say in all your career has there ever been a situation where you say there's really no it's a no win to go there is no way to win this thing it's just it's a lose-lose and i you know is does it ever get to that point where you feel like there's really nowhere to go like oh yeah absolutely yeah i mean for you know first of all basic hostage negotiation stats 93 close rate all right which means seven percent of the time it ain't going to work out you know that it's there best chance of success is not a guarantee of success sure our you know one of our challenges gay nester my former boss at the hostage negotiation crisis negotiation unit he developed a set of criteria called high risk indicators how do we spot right off how do we spot this right off the bat is there is there a profile to use a dirty word we're doing the same thing now in business there's some deals that you are never going to get let's just recognize them sooner it's not a sin to not get the dealers to send to take a long time to not get the deal absolutely yeah let's make it shorter you have any um any trip wires like the what what in a business setting of what just like is there any like things where you just say yeah it's gonna be uh you know you'll reach that point of diminishing returns really quickly you have do you have any any sort of quick tips for that yeah all right so vision drives decision decision drives action if we're talking and you have no vision in your head whatsoever of how we're going to proceed you're not going to this is you're kicking the tires you're looking for me for a competing bed i'm on a fool's errand because if you had any intention of proceeding you would have already thought it through you'd have some vision in your head vision drives decision decision drives action so i'm going to try to get out of you real early on whether or not you got any vision of me involved in your future if you don't then the amount of time it's going to take for me to put that vision in your head if at all is not worth my time so that's very good point so in other words it's very quick gut check to the to any before you really start to try to dig in and negotiate would be like you know so tell me have you given how do you see us working together in the future how do you think honestly i really you know you know listen if you want to talk i will but i really haven't given any thought i mean i don't like like that sort of dismissive like and i really don't like you know tell me go ahead tell me why i need you in my life that sort of situation right yeah that that would be one real good way to start to tease that out and i'm gonna do a couple things to follow on to see if that indicator is solid or not but if if you have if it hasn't occurred to you at all right then this is you know we're living on las vegas odds here what are the chances right i need i want to i want to play at the table where my rate of return is high and the rate of return where you got no vision of me in your future that that's not high it's a 100 and i think also like the idea is that someone it's like almost a function of marketing at that point like they haven't even gotten like they shouldn't really even be in the point of like negotiating a sale or they really haven't even understood what the value is the product is they haven't really dealt with it at a lower level it's almost like you know the sales that's a cold call it's an initial call because there is by the way because there's a process for getting someone interested and building a vision in someone's mind like that's a separate process i guess i think the point is is if you arrive in a and they haven't even gotten to that like whoa go back like i don't think i'm i'm not the right guy we're not even at the step that we should be talking about negotiation here you don't even know what my proc does how it could benefit you and you haven't even imagined how it would look for you in the future how you'd feel using my like that even gotten to the point where it's really in negotiation that's really the point more than anything am i right am i right yeah it's not going to be in or it may never be i mean you know one of the books out there that everybody raved about the challenger sale i mean i'm you know they said the idea of being a challenge is a good idea they just don't tell you how to do it but one of the things that is dead on in that book is they did a survey of executives which is basically how often do you engage in a company having no intention of doing business with them their competing bid their due diligence they're there to drive the price down on somebody else and the executives admitted to 20 of the time now that that's not a low number because basically they're asking executives how long do how often do you lie to people about doing two out of ten times right yeah sure you're not going to exaggerate that you're going to underestimate it so 20 of the time there's no deal for you there ever now let's tease that out sooner so we stop wasting our time on these people what do you think about all the people out there that teach things like sales and persuasion and negotiation and so many like could i when i saw you were in the market i said all right well that makes sense the guy's obviously an expert right he's credentialed he's done his stuff i read your stuff it was great right what do you does ever annoy you when there's people who are like just complete charlatans out there teaching sales and negotiation or you just you must run into them i assume right like they really have no business they probably stole my book they read my book they read your book and a couple other books and they're trying to make something up that stairs with all our stuff is that does that ever annoy you or you think it's dangerous well there's there's kind of two types out there you know there's a type that you know they're stealing other people's stuff they're repackaging the way of the wolf they're repackaging and they're claiming that it's around yeah and but then the the other problem is people a lot of people are good at it can't explain it so they may have a great track record they might not be able to be able to tell you in any way shape or form how they got there right so if you're going to learn you gotta tease through both of those things can they explain it were they ever any good at it you gotta have both of those things how does someone if they um wanna what's the first step because i'm everyone listening i've gone through your stuff it's amazing um and i use it in my style i i integrated some of your stuff into my stuff and because that's what i do and you know it's i think a lot of it overlaps but it's just gonna clarify my thinking on things so how does what's the first thing that someone wants to start really studying and learning your stuff what's the first step to doing that what's the first book they should read our first program or i'm sure you have some free stuff here but what's the first way they should start really getting your stuff integrated into their own business model well let's start with the assumption they've either read my book or they've read your book the very next thing to do to integrate it is start trying it out in low stakes conversations like if you want to learn a straight line method you are not going to drop that in for the first time when you got 100 million dollars on the table right you need to go drop it in when you're at starbucks or exactly lyft driver somebody where you're not so scared of making a mistake so we you know we coach people i mean we got i we say call take these three steps call up your utility company what's the worst that could happen your bill is going to be exactly the same next month and actually the worst that's going to happen is you're going to get you're going to get some practice you're going to be able to think about your tone of voice you're going to be able to think about where it went good where it went bad i mean start trying this stuff out in all of your low stakes conversations find out what works find out what you're struggling with then when you're in a big deal now you can try it because you got a comfort level with some of it where would they actually find your stuff is it do is it on your website is it on your is it um like how do they like if they want to start studying your stuff is there a course that you sell on top of your book is there like a learning product that you have uh where where would someone get that and you know what's the best one to buy first what black swan ltd.com is website blackkswanltd.com now the first move is to sign up for our newsletter because it's free and it's actionable stuff you explore the website we got a bunch of free stuff we got a bunch of expensive stuff like me you're exactly familiar with the free stuff the expensive stuff is going to be a waste of your money we got we got a ton of free stuff out there that you can make a big difference in your life right away and and and just like you i mean you i know you're trying to help people get their feet under them and then we'll teach you to run after we've got you walking really well that's exactly what our approach is too of the one paid product you have what's the one you're most proud of that you think is the best one of all that you've developed you would say if anyone wants to buy something for me i recommend this is the one i recommend they've read the free stuff they want to buy something for us what's the best what's your like go to paid product we actually just started doing it our skills are called the negotiation nine nine nine basic skills we now have a short concise affordable fast clear dive on what those nine skills are it's only a 90 minute training session we found that we were putting more clarity in that than was really in the book or anywhere else and people are eating that up and it's only 90 minutes of your time and a price point relatively speaking is lower than a price point for other stuff because it's only 90 minutes sure all right well guys let me say this um i don't often recommend like on my you know on my show like hey buy this i'm going to recommend everybody in the world of sales negotiation just in business in general i recommend it because you know i've been through chris's stuff it's awesome it's the real deal um so check it out at least check out the free stuff nothing more if not uh if you've already done that you should really um go for it because at the end of the day this sort of stuff pays for itself it just it's it's again and again it's even worse is that you don't want to look back in three years from now and then by and say oh my god if only i would have bought it three years earlier like it was all the deals that you blew or the bad deals that you mean i see it happen all the time where you know people go into negotiations they don't know the even the landscape they don't even know what a good deal looks like and they don't know how to get there and it's a really very it's a terrible thing because it cuts through not just your business to cut through when you're buying a home most important purchase many people in their life is their home it's gonna be maybe when you're talking to your own children try to get them to do things make their own beds and do their homework right and overcome their own challenges so i really think like sales and persuasion negotiations is one of those cornerstone skills that you just simply can't do without if you want to truly live an empowered life i really believe that i really believe that i know you do too so everyone check it out at blackswanltd.com chris i want to thank you so much for coming on the show you were amazing you're a legend and uh and you definitely are the real deal so thanks very much my pleasure jordan thanks for having me on you got it all right this next section here is about business and making lots of money here's the deal i'm having a small group of people over to my home in los angeles and the question all of their asking is what's next in life you know these are people who've had massive success already and they're looking to see what's that one thing that one distinction will take them to the next level of money and success so we'll be getting close right now to that seven figures a year maybe trying to get to eight things here the point is that this is an opportunity for you right now to come to my house in beverly hills los angeles here right and join with nine other people all of them ultra high achievers to attend my mastermind event which is led by me now it's going to happen here is very special and it's going to be nothing short of life changing you and this group of top business leaders are going to spend the weekend with me in intense regimented brainstorming sessions where you're also going to get to have some time about an hour or more with one on one consulting with me personally along with a special breakout session where i'm going to be sharing the most cutting edge secrets of sales marketing strategy things i'm using myself right now to scale my own businesses in a massive way but the real magic by the way this mastermind is you're also going to get sit in the hot seat in front of all these other top performers in other words every person in the mastermind is going to have that opportunity for an hour or more to sit in the hot seat where all the collective energy brain power and experience we laser guided on you focused on you and your company and helping you take things to the next level things that you thought were impossible before this day will start to become very possible for you as soon as you leave when this is over you go home feeling energized with new ideas new plans and most importantly a network of very powerful new contacts who are going to help you make them happen faster i'm opening up my entire role next to you as all the people who are attending to do the same i'm telling you the results that you're gonna get here from this mastermind will be nothing short of staggering now a little bit about how this actually works first you're gonna fly into los angeles on my driver abdul we'll pick you up at the airport we'll have your favorite drinks waiting for you at my house we'll also have a world-class chef there to cater some of the best meals you've ever had this is going to be fun and it's going to be about learning and business and camaraderie all the best things in life wrapped up in the one i guarantee you will walk out of this mastermind event with a new improved much bolder and more powerful vision for your future a new plan and massively powerful new context take your life and your business to the next level so what you need to do right now is go to jordanbellfort.com mastermind at apply that's jordanbelfort.com mastermind and apply right now do not miss this opportunity it's once in a lifetime and it's life-changing all right real quick listen if you're a ceo you're a sales manager or you're involved in hiring for your company i want you to check out my new organization straight line hiring what we do is we deliver expertly trained sales people to companies like yours world-class salespeople trained by me and delivered to you on demand go to my website jordanbelfort.com check out straight line hiring the only way to grow your company with [Music] certainty [Music] you

Channel: The Wolf of Wall Street

Views: 73,758

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Id: Pp_upQR3KMI

Length: 54min 50sec (3290 seconds)

Published: Thu Jan 28 2021