Hello guys! Welcome to another episode of TwoSet violin. - A little bit of a different video today.
- Yeah. Not our usual kind of funny light-hearted video. But we're gonna talk about... what we think is a... quite a serious topic that the musical community should probably talk a little bit more about. And that is the topic of mental health. We came about this topic recently when we were talking with some musician friends of ours. You know, we kinda joke around, but the topic often leads towards... stresses and uncertainties of what it feels like to be a musician. And I think it doesn't help that... with the recent you know 2020 pandemic, so many of us musicians lost their jobs. Many of us had to cancel a lot of their concerts. We had to cancel our world tour. So we're very lucky to be able to still make YouTube videos for you. And also just, some of our friends who were like, graduating... - "What do I do now?" Right?
- Yeah. We just wanted to raise this because we felt like, through our own experience, that hasn't been talked about a lot. And we were never really taught about how to deal with it. - Like, they talk about injuries and stuff.
- Yeah. Prevent injuries. But what about preventing psychological problems? Mhm. We're not here to give like medical advice. But we wanted to share our personal experiences, and what we've seen in this industry. Hopefully, this video will be of some value. At least, we hope this can help open up the conversation because even from a purely music performance perspective... Just as much as we need to practice and understand how to make good sound, we also need to be very... like an elite athlete, - know how to be in control of our psychology, right?
- Yes. Yeah, we were hoping for this video, we'll break it into two parts. It might be a bit long. In the first part, we're going to be... - talking about three particular areas.
- Mhm. Stress and burnout, depression, and anxiety. We'll be sharing our personal experiences, what we've seen in the industry. And in the second section, we want to talk about how we've come to deal with these things. And we hope that would help some of you. - I mean, we don't know.
- Yeah. But we thought if it's helped us to any level, it's worth it just to share it. - Yes.
- You know. The first topic that we wanted to talk about is the issue of stress and burnout. Oh, we know that one too well! I wanna start this one off by saying that... I've been there. I mentioned it briefly. I was so stressed and burnt out that I eventually had to stop playing violin for about 8 months. It was probably the most difficult time of my life. But not just that, like... The number of musicians... The ones that I know about is already so many! - I can only imagine how many of them
- Oh... - I didn't know about as well that burnt out.
- Mhm. I personally have a- had a good friend of mine that she used to practice so much and... Don't get me wrong. Practicing is good. But it was like this kind of stressed, obsessive, kind of, mindset. It was really sad because she eventually burnt out in her last year of uni. And she was unable to touch her instrument - without breaking down into tears.
- Mm. It is so sad that, like, as musicians that we love what we do. In some cases, our careers actually end because of these burnouts. And actually, yeah, and I... There's this person I know... I...I "knew." Yeah. ...also just disappeared and stopped playing violin. Extreme talent, did everything. But all of a sudden, just stopped. And that, I remember as like a kid when I was like 13, 14...or 15, I can't remember. It was like a mystery to me. This is not talked about. Unlike a lot of other musical genres, classical music has... I mean, it's a pro and it's a con. Like, it depends how you see it, right? But we have such a kind of... a standard for perfection... Yes. ...and a standard for like, respecting tradition. Personally, I do think there's something... value in that. But at the same time, we're kinda brought up in this... - Especially in university!
- Oh! That's- There's this kinda like mindset of like... everything has to be so perfect, like, "Oh, that note was out of tune." Like... Audition is over. I just remember like, obsessing over every little shift. "You can't phrase it like that," - "because Baroque music shouldn't be phrased like this."
- Yeah. It really clicked to me a few weeks back - when we watched our old young videos,
- Yes. - and saw how unstifled we used to be
- Yeah. when we were 5 years old. Just playing the violin, not caring too much. And you compare that to when we were- When we were like 16, 17, 18. You can kinda see that- For me, definitely when in university. - Oh! That's- yeah.
- The string quartet video. - Oh...yes! Yeah, it's like-
- Like, our body language was just so like... It's kinda this unspoken culture... - Yeah.
- that kinda encapsulates you into this culture, - and you become stifled...
- Mm! without even realising it. I think it's very easy to get caught into this world where it's like... you know, perfection, and then like, - cut-throat competitions and...
- Yeah. We all know, like, music is not about competitions, right? But if you're studying classical music in a university environment, it kinda does feel like... Oh, you wanna actually make a legit career and be able to sustain yourself, then you better win this insane international competition, - competing against these crazy prodigies,
- Yeah. and practice 40 hours a day, - or whatever, right?
- Yup. I don't wanna name names, or say anything that might let people be able to figure out who I'm talking to. But I know definitely over 7, off the top of my head, people that stressed and burnt out, including myself. For me, I never talked about this extensively, right? So what happened when I was 20 was I had crazily enough Sibelius Violin Concerto coming up. Yeah...! It was a performance with the uni orchestra, - Oh, I remember.
- the Sibelius Violin Concerto. And I also had the Australian Youth Orchestra world tour that year. To Europe. And I was also preparing for the YPA competition. Yes. So three really big things. And I was just practicing like crazy. The first thing that showed up was... tinnitus. - And this is very real.
- Yeah. I can say I've seen it. Yeah, people that went to uni can like... testify, like, I was in like this... It was- ...weird headspace, right? And then I remember one day, my left hand- I was practicing a lot, I was practicing Paganini, like all the thirds and stuff, when suddenly, I just felt like this pain through my left arm. But one thing that I always say is... don't push through the pain. And so I was like... "Oh crap, I gotta stop!" And then one day, it started hurting my right hand as well. I couldn't play violin anymore. I had to take time off. I flew back to Taiwan to see some doctors, and also I wanted to see my family. My family wanted to see me. And... one day, that same pain sensation spread to my legs. I suddenly was not able to walk or exert any force with my hands without like... really intense pain. It felt like being stabbed. - You also saw some physios while in Brisbane,
- Yeah. - and they said don't push through the pain.
- Yup. - There was a lot of professional advice about physical science.
- Mhm. "Don't push through the pain." Some doctors were just like "Uh, your blood markers are fine." "I don't know." I even remember one doctor, he was just like... You know, he was kinda right, but the way he said it didn't help. He was just like... "It's all in your head. Take some meds." I'm like... "Are you serious? Like..." "I'm experiencing like, very real pain." And so that was definitely one of the more depressing episodes in my life. I was in a wheelchair for about two months. And I was very very lucky to meet... I think it was a neuro- neurologist? This doctor told me to stand up and walk. And it's not like I couldn't walk, but it was just like, when I walked, it would be so painful. And then afterwards for like the next week, I'd be in even more pain. So I tried to avoid it, right? And he was just like, "Stand up, and walk." And I was like, "No, no, no." He's like, "No, stand up, walk. Trust me." He first reassured me that walking pattern is not one that represents an actual neurological disease. But basically, the idea is that... in my mind, normal physical sensations have been rewired to become pain receptors, while there's nothing physically wrong with my muscles. I was experiencing the pain in my head. So it was in my head, but it was very real. And when he educated me on that, he told me studies about how someone that had it in the left hand, they'll use this 45-degree mirror, and trick the brain to think the left hand was moving without pain. But in my case, since all four my limbs were affected, he's like, the only way is to... actually push through it and know that it's okay. Now again, - this is advice very specific to what I was going through.
- Yeah, don't- Hey, if you actually have an injury, - don't push through, alright?
- Yeah. Within two weeks... I don't know, or within like three days, I was able to walk. I still remember Eddy messaging me. He's like... "I'm better now." - Yeah.
- And I was like "What?" Yeah! You needed someone with experience and education, - Yeah.
- like, a neurologist. You know this person's talked through and then educated Eddy through it. I remember he said, "I'm better now." "What?" Yeah. Two months in, all of a sudden, you can walk. And then we played a prank... ...on our friends. - It was pretty stupid. Come on, we were-
- So bad. It's so stupid. We were like 20 years old. We invited all our friends to Eddy's house. While everyone was in the same room, Eddy goes "Oh, I wanna go to the toilet." Instead of someone pushing the wheelchair to the toilet, he just stands up. Brett: And he goes to the toilet. So dumb! And to be honest- I was so embarrassed! And to be honest though, I think I was the one that got the most kick out of it. Yeah, it was his idea, - and he's just laughing.
- It was my idea! And I just felt like a wanker. - I still remember people... friends' faces.
- Yeah. "Did you-" - I think I know who you're talking.
- Yeah. Yeah, anyway. - Yeah.
- It was very serious. Yeah, I think that experience taught me that first of all, people don't realise just how many different ways - psychological mental issues can affect and manifest.
- Yeah. The second thing I realised was like... there was a kind of taboo when it's like... "Oh, it's all in your head." Like the doctor. And it's like, it doesn't help someone that's going through mental things to be like, "It's all in your head." It just feels like someone just put you in a corner or something. I don't know. It makes you feel ashamed of having a mental illness. And that makes it worse, rather than seeing it objectively as something that we have to find a plan to overcome, right? I want to clarify this for me. It's not that working hard equals stress and burnout, but it's more like where it's coming from. - Yes.
- And if it's coming from the wrong place... "I'm not good enough." "I need to be better..." Yes, it'll make you temporarily work harder, - but it's almost like, there's a price to pay
- Yes. - for not dealing with these internal issues.
- Yeah. - The outcome is generally not good actually.
- Yeah. So next one we want to talk about is depression. I think, for depression, we feel like we're the least... - ...qualified to share.
- qualified to share about this. Like, we've been through depression periods. But I wouldn't say that - we fully experienced depression...
- Yeah, like we have friends who are - clinically diagnosed depressed.
- Yes. - And I think that's a different thing, possibly.
- Yeah. So we can't say for sure - that we can speak on behalf of that.
- Yes. All we can say is... me during my wheelchair period, - but definitely you recently with your... illness.
- Yeah, so it's quite real to me. I can still kinda relate, and kinda feel what it's like. There was actually an article I found... A study that talked about... "The impact of depression on musical ability." The results showed that musical ability is greatly reduced in patients with depression. Now, this to me is very interesting because as a musician, this is kind of the dangerous cycle - that can happen, right? It's like...
- Yeah. You feel like you're not good enough. You can't play well enough. You start feeling worthless. You start feeling depressed. - The depression reduces your musical ability
- Yes. which makes you play even worse. And then when you play worse... You judge yourself... And you feel even more depressed... - Yeah. Just keeps going...
- And it can become this like... It's like this negative spiral and it's kind of like your whole focus point is on that. - Yeah.
- You can't help it. From my recent, I mean, I'll talk a little bit about it... I mean, most of you already know... I'm generally quite a... Positive guy, like okay, stable. Eddy saw it declining. I started panicking more, again, the spiral. "Why do I do this to myself? Why did I push myself?" "Oh my god, what am I doing? I am such an idiot." There's a lot of these questions... - Yeah.
- And the worst part with the voice was like, "What's the point of living?" - Yeah.
- And that freaked me out. Yeah. And that's when I was like, oh my god. Like, why did I do that, you know? Like, for me, in the wheelchair, it was like... You wake up and there's nothing to look forward to. - Absolutely.
- It's like, trying to get through every day. Yup, you're just trying to get through every day. You obviously ask, "What's the point of this, anyway?" There's almost no purpose, purpose is just whoosh. And it gets very tricky, so... That was kind of my experience, so I can... Kind of relate, I mean, I don't want to say that was... It, you know, 'cause I don't truly know what it's like. Personally, I feel like it's something that benefits from - having someone there to talk to about it.
- Yes. We'll talk a little bit more about our thoughts on all of this in the second section. For now, I think it's important though to just raise the awareness about some of the things that people experience in the musical community that... We don't really talk about as much, right? Yeah, because it's so... Competitive. The last one... Urgh, anxiety. Especially, performance anxiety. It's huge. Dude, this was like the bane of my existence for the longest time. This is like the birth of shaky bow. Like all those shaky bow skits you saw from us four years ago, well, that's real. Yeah, that's very real. I feel like definitely my personality has always erred on the more the anxious side. It's similar, your brain kind of also goes into like a spiral. Yeah and actually can I give an example about the bow? Super real, super clear. - Yeah.
- The spiral example... So, once you get the shaky bow, you start wondering everything... Even possibly minutely affect your shaky bow. Yeah. Is my bow not tight enough? Does it need a rehair? Oh, was it not enough rosin? Oh, was my string not good? Oh, was it the freaking weather? It sounds so irrational, but in the moment, it sounds very real. Yeah, for me... Like before even going on stage, I'm not even thinking, "Can I play well?" I'm thinking, I hope I don't get nervous. - Yeah.
- Because I know I can play well without getting nervous. - Yes.
- And it got to a point where I'm just like... "Don't get nervous, don't get nervous." - "Don't get shaky bow."
- And you go on stage. First note... "Crap, I lost my -" "Why does this always happen?" "All right, breathe, breathe." "Come down, breathe." "Nah, it's still shaking." And then, I remember thinking... It must be so embarrassing for everyone to see - how nervous I was on stage.
- Yes. This - It's embarrassing because - it's almost like you don't want to - Yeah.
- No one talked about it. But, I think that's kind of why TwoSet started in some ways. Our first videos were all about shaky bows. - Yeah.
- But in some way, it was our way of coping as well. - You know?
- Yeah. Actually, a big big thing here too... This is kind of an industry secret. It's not a good thing, I don't recommend it. For those of you that get shaky bow, or get nervous on stage, and look at other people and be like, how do they perform a solo so calmly? I can tell you right now because we've been in the industry. A lot of people take beta blockers. And they don't admit to it. They'll never show you. They all get nervous... But rather than us talking about it... And normalizing these conversations... - Musicians are forced to freaking take drugs.
- Pharmaceutical drugs. - To control...
- To lower their... - What was it? Your heart rate.
- Heart rate. Heart rate. And so they don't get nervous on stage. - We both know of people that have become addicted to it.
- Yep. - They've been reliant on it.
- They cannot play in front of their friends... - Without it.
- Yeah. And no one talks about this. And I don't blame these people. It's because no one talks about it. Actually, it's interesting... There's a study that's on psychological wellbeing of professional orchestral musicians in Australia. 33% of musicians meet criteria for diagnosis of social phobia. That's another interesting one too. We spend our whole lives in a practice room, isolated socially. So, now there's also the social anxiety element to deal with. And also... It's always been fascinating to me. I know especially where our conservatory's at... Musicians are generally separate from the actual university. - Yeah.
- So, naturally we're already kind of almost outcasted. - And we never -
- I wouldn't say outcast... But, like we're definitely socially... - Separated. Isolated. We're socially isolated.
- Isolated. Separated. And everyone else is a different campus. Yeah. The positive is you're surrounded by like minded people. But the negative is you are surrounded by like minded people. - Yeah, and like...
- And it's easy... For the echo chamber of like... "You gotta play in tune." "Did you hear this person got shaky bow?" - There's so...
- You can only imagine like... Just someone doing let's say architecture. "Wow, that was great!" Different feedback from different people... Can give you a... - It puts you in perspective.
- really good perspective. Best example, it's very different to play for music appreciators than... Like a panel of... 20 other students that you're competing for that concerto spot. - Judging you secretly and no one talking about it. Yeah.
- Yeah, yeah. Oh, it's next level anxiety. Many, many, many musicians can relate to this. I feel like most musicians... - Actually, I think 99.9%.
- I think 99.99999% would. Yeah. If you don't, then... - I guess you're lucky.
- You're very lucky then, I guess. I think this wraps up the first part. I guess our intention for this first part is to show you guys it's a real thing. A lot of us do experience it. And I don't even mean to make this sound negative. - Yeah.
- Like, it's just a reality that people... Have to deal with and part of my wish is to remove that negative association with this, anyway. 'Cause all these examples that we have, if... We had just someone to talk about it or educate us about it, we definitely, I think most probably would have prevented these things from happening. I would have killed to have someone tell me how to get over performance anxiety. Oh yeah. That to me would be worth more than like, how to play Paganini. - Yeah.
- Because what's the point of playing Paganini - when you get shaky bow performing it, right?
- And then, most people don't perform anyway. Because they have so much anxiety. They end up not performing. You become a musician because you want to share the music and play the music. But what's the point if you can't even share and play? That doesn't make sense. So on that note, I think we want to share what lessons we've learned in our lives to... Address these issues. I definitely think the first thing we wanted to say is... To realise it's okay. And I think that's really a lot about why we're making this video is to realise it's okay to open up and start talking about these things. There's a lot of social stigma around it. But, I definitely think the first step is to talk to someone that you trust that you're close to. And if you don't feel there's anyone safe, then maybe find a professional that can listen to you because when it's bottled inside... You can't really deal with it. - It's all like...
- Since it's always with you... Wherever you go, wherever you are, it's always there. If you know someone that's going through something, try to lend a non-judgmental listening ear. It's not about finding the solution yet, the first step is just to let the person that is going through things to know that it's safe to accept they're going through these things. 100%. And if you can't - Really can't find someone... Write it out. Journal your thoughts. At least you're getting it outside of you. Once you realise it's okay to acknowledge that you might be going through something... And you allow yourself to then seek help when you need it, read up about it, educate yourself and then you can start learning about so much more than anything we can say in the span of this video. The important thing though is that if you don't even allow yourself to acknowledge you're going through something, if you're denying it then... That healing process can never really begin. It's like a band-aid solution, it's never really addressed. And it will come back, you know. In different ways. The second one is actually, it's okay to have that emotion. Acknowledge that it's there. Without trying to push it away... Judge yourself, blame yourself. We're all human. A really cool realisation I once had... It's okay to experience an emotion, and not identify with emotion. There's a difference between "Why am I nervous" vs. realising "I'm currently experiencing in my body, - these feelings of nervousness.
- Yeah. 'Cause it's not like, "I am nervousness." No, you're not. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You just have an experience of nervousness. The more I've tried to fight it, like for example, shaky bow, right? The more it will happen. The moment you really let go and just go, "I'm getting shaky bow, I'm feeling nervous." Well, for me at least, I find, if I do that properly... It shakes more for like, 20 seconds. And then it's gone. But, it's not easy to practice. - You have to kind of get used to it.
- I definitely think... It's like the whole being vulnerable too, right? You shouldn't act out on these emotions necessarily. - But you can still...
- Don't like, punch someone. - Yeah, like don't act on it.
- Don't punch someone But at the same time, don't block these emotions. Don't feel bad about it. And the third one is also something I kind of experienced recently is that the voice that we all have... It's not really who you are. Just as you don't have to identify with your emotions, the same thing with the voice inside your head, right? I picture it as like this little annoying roommate inside my head. "I need to practice." "Why're you so worthless?" A little neighbor is being loud again, just let them say what they need to - and then they will calm down.
- And then move on. It will all calm down. Hopefully, yeah. Okay, and then the last part, I think before we kind of wrap this video is... We want to kind of share what we've been doing... - Yeah, some practical things you can do.
- Some practical things. Yeah. And of course, I want to preface that by saying, if you have mental illness, go get medical professional help. This is just things that we do that we found has helped for us. So, it sounds so obvious, but it actually has a huge impact. Diet, exercise and rest, sleep. - Yeah.
- Three things. Your brain is part of your body. And just every time I go through some like full insane work period where I'm not sleeping properly, I stop exercising, I eat like crap. It's fine for like the first two weeks. But then it slips in after two months. I think I feel like I'm miserable and like... It catches up on you. And we're not perfect. We're still working on this. You know recently, Brett got sick, right? And we had to take some time off. So we've started being very... This is going to sound weird. Disciplined in taking breaks. We don't really have holidays, but... That's a musician thing, right? Musicians don't really have holidays. You have days where you're not performing or rehearsing, but you're still practicing, right? Definitely make the time and effort to build healthy habits. And it takes time. It doesn't happen straight away. So, I think patience as well. I'll add to that. For me, personally, cardio. It's so cool. Like running. Something about getting your heart pumping for like over 10 minutes. Woah, get your heart pumping over 10 minutes. It's unheard of for musicians. It really helps regulate my emotions a lot. Yeah, so anyway guys... Long video, different video, but because we recently thought about this, I thought we'd share kind of our insights. I don't know if this will help. Well, we hope it does. - But uh...
- I feel like in a way, also like... Breaking outside our comfort zone as well... To open this conversation. - 'Cause it's a bit scary for us,
- It is a bit scary. we've never made a video like this before. But, I do think it's important. And we hope this video opens up more conversations. You know, it would be amazing. Like, my dream... Would be like, one day, in university... Imagine there was a course teaching people how to deal with the psychological pressures of being a musician. - 100%
- That would be super cool. Maybe it's already out there, but I wish... - More people talk about it.
- Yeah. All right, guys. That's it today, for this long long video. I need to go practice. I'm just joking. Please like the video. Legato the... How do I say it again? Long video. I've forgotten everything. - It's okay.
- It's okay to forget. Yeah. - You don't need to judge yourself.
- Yeah, I'm not judging... No, I'm not judging myself. - Bye.
- Bye.
