Michael Wilder Interview (uncut)

let's just kind of start with with Lynne and talk of your life as a latter-day saint how you came to how you came to faith and what that meant and how they progressed um our lives as latter-day saints was really very good I mean we were really busy to say the least but it was you know things were fine no basic complaints you know our kids were well behaved and and we worked hard and we tried to raise them to the best of our ability in what our knowledge of the Scriptures were at that point in time that the but it was not an awful life but the the worst thing about it was that we probably didn't have time to study the scriptures like I would have liked to have because of that he's busy and supporting my wife and her callings she supported me in mine and that was no excuse I mean we still read the scriptures and and there's a lot of scriptures to read and Mormonism and still read the Bible but not really studied it like I should have to give me some warning signs of the problems that were there yeah well when you talk about not reading the scripture the Bible in assuming when we're talking about reading the Bible as much did you sense a lack even then or a hunger for for reading for reading the Bible we read different sections of the Bible when we would have Sunday School classes or priesthood classes or sacrament meetings you know people would quote from the Bible and we would focus in on those general quotes but to really sit down and study in a lot of scriptures and a lot of details the scriptures I I did not do that where they were very picky in where they would have us read basically a lot of the readings and teachings of Paul we just did not study we focused in on the four Gospels quite a bit but never all the years that we were in the church you know multiple times it said as a family you need to read The Book of Mormon as a family you need to read The Book of Mormon but never ever was a call like as a family you should read the New Testament never had that we would just read it and we would be triggered to read certain areas and places where we would start to see conflicts you would just put on the Shelf you would just say well that's not translated correctly and their eighth article of faith states that we believe in the Bible as far as it's translated correctly so anytime there seem to be a conflict in the scriptures with the Bible against Mormon doctrine you would say oh that's an error in a Bible and therefore we will really not pay much attention to that and that was a good easy way of purging those questions out of your mind and I think the other thing is that once you get into Mormonism and you really study it and your lesson to the leaders and you really trust them they're supposed to be men of God and they're supposed to be directing us and the fact that they would you know say well you know these teachings here may not be quite right and and in the Bible if there's a conflict you would automatically go to what the current prophet was saying what the current scriptures current revelations or the current prophets were saying and dismiss like the writings of Paul when we were studying the Bible as a Mormon you do cherry-pick a lot and you you cherry-pick to a point where you're read a scripture and then you'll read something related to it and during covenants or into the Book of Mormon or Pearl and then you go chasing a rabbit that direction to justify what they're trying to teach and the LDS Church is very liberal and how they will take certain passage of the Bible and really just switch it all the way around from its original meetings meaning and so when you read it and then you jump off on this rabbit hunt saying okay yeah now I really understand what its meaning I had to go to prop or latter-day revelations or you jump all the way to the Joseph Smith translation of the Bible to help you have a better knowledge of it but as this reading a chapter after chapter and dentist focusing in on that point I I would read it but I didn't study it nothing like I do today because now when I read it I'm testing the word against you know what God is really trying to teach us and are we judging that word against man's actions against a religion or we judging to what God really wants us to know in the word well what this question so what in your process of coming to grips with the trustworthiness of the Bible for you what what did you see is kind of the the process by what you went from seeing it as not entirely trustworthy just seeing it as something that that is trustworthy I think in a very beginning I was raised by good parents good Christian parents and I trusted in the Bible but I didn't know the Bible and as we were joining a church or studying to be baptized into the church again the LDS missionary is a very good at leading us into certain scriptures they wanted us to understand to correlate to what deaath Mormon Church taught at that point in time and so it was really during a period of time when well actually I started running in I mean even before we join the church there was you know things about just like two days before we join the Mormon Church abour baptized I found out that blacks couldn't hold the priesthood and we were baptized in October 28 1977 and at that point blacks could not hold the priesthood and I was really upset and I said there's no place in the Bible it states that you know I was I was trying to judge what they were teaching and you know they kind of just said well you know did you know the the gospel was taught to the Greeks first and then to the Gentiles that kind of concept but I really knew the Bible realize no that was a problem from the very beginning so you know what I had a little bit of doubt there but over a period of time you get you get I call sucked in to where you're just trusting everything they're saying and all the Mormon scriptures and they're always put doubt about what the Bible is teaching you you know that there's problems with it it wasn't translated correctly and so forth now when did I really started questioning I think when Micah was on his mission and he was challenging us to read the Bible you know I started reading a Bible and as one thing that always bothered me about the eldest church was polygamy I could not understand it I did not like it but I kept saying well it's in the Bible it must be must be true and you know I remember when we were joining the church I said plaguing me it does not make sense why and they gave me the excuse as a lot of more missionaries give that when all the men were killed in nabu and out east and there were a lot more women than man when they moved to the West and because of women were so devout to the church they would never marry outside the church and so forth and therefore the only way they could survive as a family was to marry Mormon men so Mormon men would have multiple wives and therefore when it balanced out they removed that and every we have today I said I still don't like it but I'll move on while those things you put on the shelf well I I was reading the Bible and was said okay I'm going to justify polygamy in the Bible and whoa did I find out it didn't exist there is no place in the Old Testament the church uses the story of Abraham and in a Jay Cup especially about justifying polygamy and I go through the whole thing and said there's now one place where God tells Abraham to take a wife or God tells Jacob to take another wife Jacob was in a bad situation and a very dysfunctional family and the same thing it was Abraham never asked Sarah that he wanted the wife it was because they were Abraham was impatient and Sarah was impatient to bring about the birth the the movement of the the birth of the nation for for Abraham and they took it in their own hands and I remember when reading that and the verse really jumped out at me this is when Abraham you know he had Ishmael and Abraham said take thy son Isaac thy only son I go whoa wait a minute he has another son not in the eyes of the Lord and so you start analyze that then I went back and studied section 132 and read it out loud and I was appalled by what was in there and I said wait a second I've got a problem here I'm beginning to get conflicts with the Bible with Mormon doctrine okay so any good Mormon when you have a conflict what do you do well you go to the temple you go to the temple and you said in the celestial room and you say God tell me that polygamy is correct it is your principle I don't understand it I don't like it but just tell me it's your will and I will accept it and God said it was not my principle it was of man not of me once I got that done once I had that given to me then I realized that section 132 was incorrect if that's incorrect and Joseph Smith was receiving incorrect revelation we have now conflicts a Mormon doctrine with the Bible we start then at dinner just exploded out at that point then I started reading Paul and got into the writings of Paul and just the six chapters in Galatians I said whoa I said if Paul were here today and he was in Salt Lake City he would change just all we have to do is has changed the name and said to the Galatians you were to say to the Mormons and you give it to them and say here it's a problem you have and it just the scriptures at that point I said you know God teach me let me read the scriptures and I think under Mormonism you you are binded by a spirit of blindness and that when you read those scriptures it's just like it gets put on the shelf and it doesn't ring a bell now I read the scriptures starting with Matthew all the way through revelations or going to Isaiah and the Old Testament so forth and I read this and says that's a conflict with Mormonism that's a conflict for more it just jumps out at me and you go back and you look at the relationship of God and in Isaiah it teaches you know there are no other gods before me or after me I am the only guy and we have a big conflict there with more in doctrine of multiple gods millions of gods man being come God God can become man but man cannot become God and once I started understanding that and understanding who God really is and realized that Christ was manifested was God manifested in man's form that's just a new thing he wasn't the brother of Satan he was not born but he's been from the beginning with the father they're one and you get that and you say wow that is really neat that this Christ is a lot more than I ever gave him credit for and our God is a lot more than we ever gave him credit for and so you get into Isaiah you get into the the teachings of the major prophets the minor prophets and you say you begin to understand just celebrating Easter and then we were looking at something like 22 verses that came true on the last day of Christ's life that the prophecies came true how could that be there's I mean it wasn't like Christ could arrange us well he he did because he was God and he was pulling everything together so that these prophecies would come through and so that the Scriptures go from a point of being not just good and and partially translated correctly but being totally translated correctly because God can do anything and he's put this book here to teach us now I don't understand everything in it and Christians don't understand everything in I know Mormons don't understand everything in it that's that's but but we are learning but we can't discredit it because we don't understand and to justify our own doctrine our own lust it's interesting in in Corinthians - I think it's a great you know talks about a false Jesus and it says wow you know that there will be false Christ's I think it's 2nd Corinthians and that there would be false apostles well you know I never thought of that before you go to in in in in Mormonism they're always talking about you know the Bible is always changing you know we're getting all these new revelations that understand everything for example doctoring Covenants 132 oh yeah right you know it's to justify your own lust instead of you know understanding what's really in the scriptures to realize that Abraham didn't wasn't given authority to practice polygamy or that Jacob was given Authority he wasn't you know you look at the line of polygamy came from the seed of Cain which is a good start and said well we got a problem there but the the scriptures are alive and they just did they just give so much to us but but you know things changing you go to Hebrews you know chapter 13 verse 8 and it says Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and tomorrow and verse 9 says and do not be deceived by doctrines of man and I said wow I was deceived it's it's but the nice thing about it to any LDS person who's watching this I was active for thirty years I served in bishoprics I was in the hiker I don't say this to boast but I'm just saying that I knew Mormonism I lived it it was important to us and for 15 years I served in those positions this that not counting the other stuff that I did and to be able to stop someday and look yourself in the mirror and say I was wrong but you can do that and you can just say yeah I made a mistake I count all that as Paul said to loss you know because you know all of his works that he did as a Pharisee and in the laws that he did he said well it's lost too bad I have to move on and that's what my wife and I did we said okay let's make the best out of it today and it's all came about because of studying the Scriptures for studying the Bible especially I think a lot of people who said well we don't understand that they put things up on shelves and say okay I'm not gonna worry about this and not gonna think about it I mean so many times lamb would come home and talking about they would be talking about polygamy in the relay society and women don't understand it but you know I mean it's an eternal principle I mean it states it in current Mormon scriptures and they have to put down on the Shelf you know they have to say well you know someday in the hereafter when my husband takes another wife I'm just going to accept it and they put it on a shelf and they don't think about it anymore and you know I used to say even when I was active I used to question things about you know who is saved you know all the works that we have to go through but that's a conflict with it you know you've in Ephesians you know was a chapter 2 verse 8 and 9 or something you know you're saved by grace not by your works lest any man boast and I said put that one under here polygamy you know grace limited atonement another thing you just you put there and say well I don't understand it and therefore we just put it to the side there and say our leaders know I trust I'm gonna trust them them and you make the best out of this situation but there are a lot of Mormons out there with a lot of things on that shelf and for a lot of them for me when I really put the weight on there or polygamy it cracked and then everything carts tumbling down and I just tell Mormons keep putting more things up there and it's going to crack I get that metaphor from a lot of Mormons of different in different settings so to talk about well you know I just kind of put that on the shelf and that's a very that was kind of an unusual metaphor for me I'd never really heard of it in that sense but it that's why I was asking is this something that is kind of uh is that an actual metaphor used among Mormons well you know I just put that on the shelf as that a common thing that they talk about you don't think yeah I think it's in doctoring covenants I think it's state I think Joseph Smith said if you don't understand something put it on a shelf I'll tell you what it's supposed to be no yeah well or somebody else will deal with it and then I don't have to so when you were talking about it you were in the temple and you you were praying to God about this witness about polygamy and you received the answer that know that this is a doctrine of a manner God where was that in your whole journey of of coming out of Mormonism how that was at the the the and a Micah was a office mission we had gone through that great experience of him being released and God has a sense of humor during that period of time when I was really studying the Bible trying to put all this together my wife and I were called to the temple committee to help people go to the temple so I said well I accepted the calling I'm not sure why but I'm glad I did because I went to the temple and every time I went to the temple I started realizing it is not of God the lost my train of thought was my the Lord had a sense of humor as we were we were still you know into the church you know us as well there are things wrong with the church and when I say the church I do not mean the body of Christ I'm just going to say short for Mormon Church that the we just had to find out well we'll we'll take the good with the bad and throw away too bad and take the good so we are still trying to search well during this period of time as we're understanding the the Bible's reading the Bible my wife and I was called as the temple committee chair people and that meant that you know I went to brick meetings we put together temple trips and that we would encourage people to go to the temple and I'd report about you know who's going to the temple and so forth and as I went to the temple and as I was reading the scriptures and I had the conflict that's when I was forced to go to the temple I said well you know if this callings right and it for us is all coming together the Lord is gonna tell me about this one thing on principle on polygamy that's one principle and I went there and he just hit me and then I realized wow we've got a problem here and then at that point I said I need to learn more and so since this is my calling I'm gonna come to the temple and really analyze as I was underst understanding the Bible I am now going to apply everything all these teachings of the LDS temple in relationship to the Bible and find conflicts and I found conflict after conflict so what should have been given me more testimony of the truthfulness of the church every time I went to the temple I was seeing the errors of the doctrine to church and what was interesting one of the times I was actually at the Salt Lake Temple seeing a live session I remember being in one of the rooms and looking up and I see the all-seeing eye which was painted on the temple wall and I recognized that because my dad was a Mason you know all this started flowing in my mind he talked about the all-seeing eye and there it was printed you know in the temple looking down on me as I said in the audience there so it was a great chance to just gather information because I knew I was leaving a church but I was going to glean as much as I could from that as I possibly could and realize that it's doing works for dead man's bones what was kind of the final straw that this said oh that basically said we're leaving and actually make the decision to leave and how how was that and how did that affect you the I I think it was this a combination I don't I can't know if I can put my one I mean once I lost testimony of Joseph Smith which was the concept of polygamy once I got that and I go to Sakura media and I hear people up there just saying oh you know about Joseph Smith and what a great man he was and I just kept thinking this is no you know it's just it was a it would be hurting me to actually listen to that and and and so the last year we were actually active in the church we were kind of saying well let's let's preach of Christ let's talk of Christ that you know the movie Testaments came out and then they then they brought out the movie about Joseph Smith and I remember in priesthood class one time I asked a person so I haven't seen the movie about Joseph Smith I'm going to ask you a question I said do they mention anything essence I bet they don't say one thing in that movie about he and Emma and his other wives and he said oh no no they don't mention anything this is just just what I thought there's another witness to me but it was a combination thing you know we you know you you kind of realize that well maybe became a fallen prophet you know by the time we're getting in 1843 1844 he pushed the edge maybe he was a prophet at the beginning these are all things that's going through your mind as you're coming out of Mormonism you're trying to find some good in it well maybe it started out right and then he fell you know it became a falling prophet you know at the Book of Mormon is still true you're reading and studying that and then you start getting more into the word and said wait a minute I'm running a more complex and doctrine cabinets I'm running into problems with the first vision I'm running our problems with you are saved after all you can do Ephesians because excuse me I'm the second Nephi 20 verse 25 or something like that that and you know you can't save yourself I mean it's all by the grace and blood of Christ Mormons always talk about following the commandments you know it's a legalistic Church and if you follow all these Commandments you will be saved why's a estates were even our greatest acts are filthy rags you can't save yourself I mean Paul states in Romans you know we're all sinners and you know Christ teaches us you are you know if you love me keep my Commandments if you love me keep my Commandments which we try to do as Christians but the Mormon Church says God will love you if you keep my macam my Commandments now that's a big difference God will love you if you keep his Commandments that's not the way it works he loves us in spite of ourselves in spite of our actions and that's the good news and that's the greatest thing that separates Christianity from Mormonism is that you're not under the law it's just like so much like the Pharisees so much like you know you've got to do this and you've got to do this and you can't do this on the Sabbath because you're breaking the law well we need to do good works but we're not saved by our good works and it's so interesting Mormons will take James chapter a chapter two or a chapter two and they'll say well it states here James states that you must be saved by works show me your faith by your works and and and and so forth and James is speaking to Christians he's just saying Christians get your act together and all he's talking about before that before he talks about works is love show compassion show love so works is love but he doesn't say it saves you and in in Mormonism it's they've got it all reversed and it's just amazing how you gonna love that for such a long time and not get it but it's it's a Church of fear that if you don't do this and this and this you're going to lose your salvation because salvation you've earned and is given by man according to your temple recommend and so forth scary stuff the means of controlling you know a lot of people say oh no no I I want to go to the temple because I learned so much there and I want to do this and I said well that's fine but the fact is that if you don't go there according to Mormon doctrine you're you're not going to receive salvation I said you are under the law to obey their rules now I if I'm an active Mormon and I give 20% of my income to the LDS Church I fulfill all my callings I do all this and I go in through my temple recommend and I'd say Bishop I love tea I have to drink tea every day I can't live without tea well he give me my temple recommend no he will not dare you tie it back to the Pharisees you know of being a strict law doesn't make any sense okay I could be given 50 percent of my income but if I'm drinking tea I I can't get my temple recommend but the next person that comes in says no I don't drink tea but he drinks Diet Coke and Mountain Dew by the gallon which has more caffeine in it and so forth so he gets his temple right I don't I lose my salvation but they get theirs that's the legalistic law that just does not make any sense really doesn't see into the heart and that's a really hard that the key of Mormonism is that you the bishop is considered the judge of Israel okay the bishop can control your salvation and if you're doing things that they don't think is right they will take steps to correct that if you know if and if you don't correct those steps then you can have disciplinary action taken against you in a form of a church court that we used to call a the court of love and when I was in the bishopric and then High Council and what that amounts to that if you do not obey what the instructions of Bishop will give you then they can take your temple recommend which means you are losing your salvation you have to earn that back and I remember the thought that a person whether they like you or not controls your salvation is really scary you know so many people lie you know I mean I know one missionary who came home from his mission was doing all the right thing dating two girls was supposed to be getting ready to get married and he gets one pregnant and you know whoa he got caught okay well we're all sinners I'm not judging him for that but it's the idea that we act perfect as Mormons when we have all these sins behind us that were hiding I think one thing I like about Christian Jersey was hey I'm a sinner I mean that's you know I and I'm condemned by my sin but through the atonement through the blood of Christ and for me asking for forgiveness that is removed from me doesn't give me an excuse to run around and live any way I want to but I am saved by my faith not not by my works but I remember one time we were in a high council meeting and this was a church court that we were a lady had been excommunicated by a bishop so she has had her salvation so she had to bow down to this bishop and say you are right everything you know what I did was wrong and therefore I would have to go back through the whole process that the bishop would see are you reading your book of Mormon are you paying your tithing are you doing this and doing this to earn her way back so she can get three baptized and then another year later get her temple recommend to get back into the good grace of God that would take a minimum of two years well this lady was not going down easily she brought a complaint against the High Council which I was on at that point we got called into a meeting that lasted from 8 o'clock Sunday morning we we had to pass sacrament meeting around the high council table because we couldn't get the set went on forever until that night it was about 8 o'clock or 9 o'clock that night and what we found after reviewing all the evidence what the bishop had made an error and that she was given her full rights and reinstated as a full member but bishops aren't supposed to make mistakes well the church was selling of course they were their men but when men make mistakes that affects people's salvation that's the problem I make mistakes bishops can make mistakes but when a bishop makes a mistake of removing somebody salvation or saying they're not worthy that's that's another question that's a huge question especially when and Luke chapters 17 I think it's states that you know if somebody comes to you in fault in error you omit the wrong admits or a sinner we should forgive well they come back seven times and if you wrong things for seven times we are commanded to forgive seven times now a person in a religious situation can make a judgment you know that happens in Christianity and so forth but I have never known of a case where a person has come before a bishop and said I'm sorry or Christian and say I'm sorry and get sex me out seen those cases where people were not caught they were you know trying to get their lives back together they were good people they would say I made mistakes I want to get myself back in order I want to be able to go to the temple and lo and behold they get hauled into court and they get excommunicated now they can start their process I have never known a case in Christianity where ever a person with a sincere heart would come by and say I'm a sinner they're things wrong the congregation would take them back in the full fellowship immediately but in Mormonism you're it's it's a process and it's it's a long process again your salvation is taken you know away from you and God to you and a man and into God and therefore Mormons go around saying we think the old God for a prophet to lie to lead us in these latter days you know you're you're you're in the Old Testament we have great Christ now it's a different scenario personally well cost can be measured in many ways of losing something sure but we gained so much more yeah so we lost a religion but we gained Christ and that's a good trait that's a good trade and that's the unique thing about it's given up a religion or the laws you know where people say do's and don'ts to get that relationship with Christ it's it's there's a wonderful exchange any time you deal with Christ you come out ahead and we came out ahead but yes there was a cost we you know we we realized that we we happen to live in a town that was probably the highest percentage of LDS active LDS in the world and good people you know first of all I want to say the Mormons are good people they're wonderful people they just have a misunderstanding about the scriptures I mean with the passion as a warden mission leader which I was for three times and working in a state missionary as a state missionary also the passion I went out to convert people to Mormonism I now have that same passion to bring people out of Mormonism because once the lights open you see it it's so obvious but yeah there's a cost you know we had to pick up a move my wife resigned from a tenure position at Brigham Young University and we gave gave up friends you know we still have friends but it's not like it was in Mormonism I mean it's this you know it's just not the same you know you just bono go out to dinner with people and talk it's just not the same and some of our friends don't even know that we've left the church they think maybe we just became inactive or that were active someplace else but it but there was a cost cost a friendship okay there was a financial cost believe it or not I still do all my business in Utah and there was some costs there you know my wife again given up her position and her salary and their prestige at Brigham Young University you know in an academic world people can't believe that you had to leave a university because of religious beliefs this is this is the United States of America we're supposed to have religious freedom and and you don't you really don't the you know moving you know and again the agony as our some kids were out more than the other ones but that we all jail together and we've all come out noble in and I went in we had four children active Mormons three sons served mission and then we've all come out and god is good he's blessed us now what we just want to do is to try to help Mormonism's understand I mean if they agree with it all you know if you agree with polygamy and you fill us in your heart it's right and you feel you got to work your way then that's fine but but don't use the Bible you know if if he if you have to say the Bible is not translated correctly just take it out of your scriptures use Book of Mormon use your other doctrine and just remove the Bible you can do a law you can do just fine without it but when you bring the Bible into play and when you bring in the name of Jesus Christ and you attach them to doctrines that are not true then my relationship is not with a man my relationship is with Christ and I have to defend him I had to defend his teachings now because I have to because I want to because I am a soldier of God and He has given me the sword the Word of God to use and if it's piercing I'm sorry you know if it doesn't justify your doctrine I'm sorry take a closer look at it be released in sere and reading it and but if you want to do the other stuff that's fine too but please give us our Bible back about the disproportionate view of of the importance of family how do you answer you know the Mormon who is still stuck in the whole families are forever and and that's really the end all be all of our in Mormonism you know so much emphasis you know when we were baptized that talked about families are for eternal you know you can be married with your wife for all time and eternity and it and it's so interesting when you join the Mormon Church you think well I'm saved well not exactly what you know you've got to go be seal then you got to go to the temple and you've got to pay your tithing and you got to keep doing these things over and over and over again to maintain that you want to be sealed to your wife forever you have to do these things well what if I want to give my money to the poor and the needy and give 20% of it well brother Wilder that's a good thing to do but you still have to get 10% first to the Mormon Church then you can give to the poor the needy that's it whoa in fact that came up I know I'm getting off base here but that came up with my first tithing recommend when we first joined the church then I were quite in school now making a lot of money and we you know we joined the church and we were paying our tithing but before that though we were also sponsoring a child on the Christians the Children's Christians fund and I think it's his name of it and Christians children's fund and we were giving money there which out of the money we were making back then was probably accounting close to three four or five percent and so I was thinking that was good works and we're supposed to be doing the good work so I counted it as my tithing and when we got to her hiding settlement the bishop said oh you're paying a full tithe yes are you getting a full tied to the LDS Church and said no one of those things that went on the shelf and I said well you know I thought this was doing good and he said well it is fine it's an honorable thing to do but you have to give your tithe to the church first and then anything else is a bonus other people but we'd even prefer you to give that to the LDS Church also so in our great wisdom in which I felt very guilty of we had to stop our support for that child because then we had to pay our money to the Mormon Church but coming back to families you know it's a it's a it's a wonderful concept but you'll look into a Mormon family and you say oh the husband and wife they're active you've been sealed in the temple and a v8 got four children all those children are sealed under the Covenant and they become adults and they go to the temple within one of your children strays and says I don't think it's right I don't think your teachings are correct and I'm going to leave the church I'm going to denounce the teachings of Joseph Smith and you say whoa what about this big happy family now I'm going to be with my wife and I'm gonna be with my three other children but my one son who has rejected it would never make it in fact since he knew the gospel and has rejected it he could even go to hell oh my how can I have this happy family but in Christianity we don't have that problem should have realized it from the beginning we're all part of the body of Christ we're all part of the family of Christ we're not you know I had husbands and mothers and so forth that were all part of the brothers and sisters of Christ so what do you have one child that's of this particular denomination and another child of this particular denomination and another child we all believe we will be in the hereafter together as one big happy family so Mormons have nothing to offer that standard Christianity doesn't offer the fact is that they say it's a family unit we say we are now part of the family of Christ so unless you're willing to give up your father mother and your brothers are sisters and you think they're more important than Christ's you can't be part of the family of Christ so you can have your own family or you can give that up surrender everything to Christ to the true teachings of Christ to His grace and be part of his family I think that's a better family to be in so the the concept that the Mormons teach about eternal families it's no big deal we have it in a Christian world it's a bigger family but Mormonism you're gonna go off and have your own worlds and your children are gonna go off and have their own worlds you're not gonna see them anyway except on Easter and Christmas anyway so yeah how they even played that out in there and you talk about the nuclear family and that's gonna be sort of your family on the world that is you will then create yet you know you have been part of another nuclear family you will create other news okay so where it gets very complex and it's it's you go and take it a step further you have Mormon men who are married seal to Mormon and women they have children they get a divorce a temple divorce the children supposed to be sealed to the husband and wife so do they go to the mother when she gets sealed to a new husband or did he go through the father who gets sealed to another woman or if they don't get a temple divorce and get it just at the divorce she marries another man for only time he marries another woman for this time in eternity now he has two wives and the children now have two mothers now that's interesting too so polygamy is still practice from a spiritual stands I call spiritual polygamy and fact three of our current apostles are sealed to more than one wife yes Dallin Oaks is one of them he's sealed to two women so he's practicing polygamy today spiritual polygamy because they believe in the hereafter he's going to be sealed to both those women he has two wives elder Perry and Neilson a lot of people don't understand but doctrine cabinets 1:32 it gives us the law of practicing polygamy it's fact it's there it's in it's in the scriptures except it's not in the Bible it's in the scripture over there which is 132 but the the concept is that a man when his in today's world a man can be sealed to a woman for all time and eternity if she dies he can get sealed to another woman today I mean I'm talking about in 2010 he can get sealed to another woman for all time and eternity and if she would die he could be sealed to a third one and so forth so and then when they all die then those wives will be sealed and attached to her current husband and it will be as a husband a wife in the Millennium and also only Hereafter after the Judgment Day that's Mormon doctrine it's polygamy and so any Mormon who says we don't practice polygamy it's lying if they say we don't practice polygamy by Miriam multiple women alive that's data is true they can't or they do not because they don't be put in jail but from a spiritual standpoint from a religious standpoint it is still law of the land what's your opinion if if for some reason polygamy should become in the United States what do you think the Mormon Church's reactions best like a lot of things they would come out they would denounce it but they would secretly probably practice it I thought that's it's my opinion but I I'm I'm not sure it's a question I've often wondered okay kind of puts them in a bind a double binds there because on one hand the reason they don't practice polygamy now or at least what the reason they give for not fresh to putting me now is that well it was against the law and once that prohibition is taken away then it wants to stop them they're going to find some other reason I don't think they want to start polygamy I think they know that it would cause a defamation of their membership but what a Mormon would would state this that the physical practice of polygamy ended in 1890 and that was given by revelation to the current profit at that point and that it was no longer needed it may still be an eternal principle but we don't understand everything in the eternities but as far as an earthly practice that is no longer needed but that is a big lie too because it was not stopped in 1890 and during our coming-out process I will not mention any names but I love the family dearly wonderful people we were over at their house and I saw a picture on the wall and this this lace is oh that's my great-grandfather and I said wow she says he was an attorney for the church I won't state where he went to school that she gave me the whole detail so really yes yes I said oh I got pointed out this is uh well this must been taken before 1890 yet you know multiple she says oh no he he hated the practice of polygamy he he fought it he did not want to do it but the leaders of the church finally convinced him that he had to take a second wife and as well as he fought it she says yes he was finally married to another woman in 1905 in the Salt Lake Temple I go 19050 yes it's in our records here we wrote a book about it and he was married and actually it was very successful and that he also married another wife and then he I think he had a total of five wives all these were sealed to him given to him by the current leadership I'm talking about the apostles and the Prophet they knew this after 1890 and that really shocked me because I really was at that point I still believe that the church said that ended at 1890 it was done and she's oh no they practice it afterwards and I I I that was a big dart that was a huge dart that came in and she remember says yeah she was really upset with the current prophet I can't remember his name Joseph Joseph s Smith Joseph fielding Smith which one it was one of the Smith's around just before he died which was either 1913 1910 this guy had instant journal he was being interviewed and they wrote up that the Prophet said we had stopped practicing nobody threw the ax proper 40 of the LDS Church had ever been sealed after 1890 and this guy who was sealed I think by that prophet said is not right to de lie to the Lord and that the Lord will take him that's what he said sin is I think he's in his journal and actually the Prophet died like six months later but but just a side note there but again it's it's the concept of all over the what they define is lying for the Lord it's okay we're not ready to have the meat of polygamy or the other stuff and it's okay to lie about it which the church continues to do especially when President Hinckley was on national TV with Larry King asked about polygamy and says it's not doctrine it's not doctrine and all the Mormons in Utah gone uh wow that's interesting so call it what you want to but I I call lying for the Lord and the Lord does not want us to lie I would state again to anybody who is LDS I am NOT attacking you personally I love the Mormon people but I will say I am attacking the doctrine of the church because I really feel it is not according to what God wants it's according to what man wants and it's it's my opinion what the information I have known had living as a Mormon for for thirty years an act of Mormon now the jack Mormon but an act of Mormon I was a temple ordinance worker I worked avails and I know all about it but to realize the the doctrines is not according to what's in the Bible and all I would ask is to go back and read the New Testament purge your mind of everything that's been taught to you and read it as a child as Christ that we have to come to him as a child and read the words there you know and look at it differently what the Christ is teaching Matthew Mark Luke John the writings of Paul you know just acts just everything everything it just will open up your your your eyes so that you can say WOW and it's if the Mormon Church is true if it is true then you can search on the internet you can go and do whatever you can because if it's true there's nothing that's gonna stand up against it God said that Christ said that the gates of hell should not prevail against my church if I were to give any advice to any latter-day Saint that might be watching this but again the words that I've spoken is not to attacked you personally but it is to give a warning voice of the doctrine that is taught in the Mormon Church I think if your church teachings are a hundred percent correct there's nothing I can say that can damage it now Christ said you know nothing will take away my gospel from this this earth you know hell can not destroy it so how can I do it but the doctrine you I think you need to question you know or it's okay to question it because if it's true you'll get your answer but but just to it or questions to ignore items that might be brought up to you to be afraid to go on the internet and type in Joseph Smith to find out that maybe all the things that's taught to him about him is not exactly what we hear or what actually happened those are the things I would encourage you to to question because you're basing your salvation on the teachings of a man and if his teachings are correct the usual you would have nothing to fear but if they're not correct then you need to get back to the teachings of Christ I would ask you this question can you be saved without the knowledge of Joseph Smith you know this would be challenging the Bible at this point Christ said you know his words would not pass away do you have to believe in Joseph Smith to be saved in John 14 verse 6 Christ stated I am the way the truth the life no man cometh unto the father except by me in Mormonism were putting Joseph Smith in there also that you have to accept Christ as taught by Joseph Smith and therefore I had to believe in Joseph Smith before I can truly accept Christ that's a big question in Paul writes in Ephesians he say that before we came before faith came we were kept under the law are you kept under the law shut up unto the faith that should afterwards be revealed wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us to Christ yes the Old Testaments will help us understand Christ but that we may be justified in faith that after that faith has come we are no longer under a schoolmaster you no longer under the law of the Old Testament but you're under the law of Christ you're no longer under the law of the Mormon teachings you're under the law of Christ for Christ so it says for there is neither Jew nor Greek neither bond nor free there is neither male or female for all are one in Christ and he goes ahead and states that I am crucified in Christ not in Joseph Smith but I'm crucified in Christ nevertheless I live not as i but Christ liveth in me and if you really turn to Christ I think you will really find Christ

Channel: Sacred Groves

Views: 18,821

Rating: 4.6504855 out of 5

Keywords: mormon, mormonism, lds, christian, christianity, bible, biblical, michael, wilder

Id: Ew0bD_BbpiY

Length: 65min 51sec (3951 seconds)

Published: Sun Jan 23 2011