Joseph Warren Interview (uncut) Part 1

okay no let's start off just talking about your LDS experience in your background what okay you know I'm assuming I know you were born into it yeah but but again pretend that I don't know anything of your stories okay we're basically starting from scratch okay so yeah I just kind of give me the rundown of life as an LDS growing up okay well I grew up in Utah and my family was very active LDS my dad was a convert when he was fifteen years old and then my mom she grew up in a less active family so so when they had all of us and when they got married then they decided to be really active and strong in the hell yes Church you know because because they have their backgrounds and stuff so I was born in the covenant and I believed I believed it with all my heart you know ever since I was a little kid I was always taught that Joseph Smith was a prophet and that the LDS Church was the only true church on earth so you know naturally I I just followed those beliefs and everything and I tried to be obedient I tried to you know do do everything I could to fit into the LDS Church and and you know I got the priesthood when I you know in the right time when I was you know twelve and then when I was sixteen you know and you know just progressed in the church as much as I could and like I said I really believe that strongly so I talked to my friends and stuff anybody that I didn't have any non Mormon friends but anybody that was kind of struggling or like you know less active or something I tried to encourage them to keep coming and you know I was known in my ward as having a really strong testimony of the church especially when I got closer to my mission because when we need turn 19 to go on a mission trip for two years somewhere in the world and you don't know where you don't get a pick but you just get sent in and so I decided to serve and in order to prepare myself for that you know I began to study the Scriptures a lot and you know straight in my life out and everything and so that I could be worthy because we were taught that we had to obey these certain Commandments in order to be worthy of God and and all my life I believed what the Book of Mormon says where you're saved by grace after all you can do and so I had this huge burden on my shoulders where I felt like I had to do all that I could do I had to do my very best effort and and you know all that I could do it was never defined but so it just kind of it just kind of sounded like it was it was everything you know like like I would go to church as much as I could I would read the scriptures the Book of Mormon as much as I could you know do my callings in the church I mean everything and just you know and it just felt like I had to do my best in everything before the grace of Christ could could kick in and help me so so I I grew up with that mindset and you know huge burden on my shoulders but I believed it with all my heart so it sounds like you were pretty on fire yeah you were very committed did you have any kind of awareness of the difference between what was kind of on the outside and what was going on on the inside and how did you or did you pretty much dead in yourself to that kind of struggle yeah I I actually I was so naive that I didn't really think that there was a life outside of the Mormon Church you know I basically I talked about it I was like I was I was lived in a Mormon bubble and I just it was like the Truman Show you know we're like this is all that I knew was what I saw around me and so so life outside of the Mormon Church it almost seemed like it didn't exist you know it was like hard to comprehend and stuff and but I do want to share a little experience which made me so strong and in the Mormon Church because I was praying about the if the Book of Mormon was true and I didn't get an answer and and so I got on my knees and I asked God if I should go on a mission and I felt a really strong outpouring of God's love and I and I took that as an answer that yes the the Book of Mormon was true and that the Mormon Church was true and everything that they taught was true though the question I asked was if I should go on a mission it wasn't it wasn't you know it wasn't all those other things but I just kind of clumped them all together you know like and so I believe I was supposed to go on a mission and I do believe that God was leading me in my life even at that yeah at that age because I did ask God if he loved me and I felt that that same feeling of love and and strong outpouring of the Holy Spirit so I really believed that God was leading me on my mission but I did take that as oh the Book of Mormon is true Joseph Smith's a prophet and and that fueled my passion for the church before and during the mission so you even in that framework of you know what the LDS call a testimony yeah well I got in terms of in terms of you personally did you have were you ever kind of aware of the disparity between your public face and what was going on inside your heart I mean because you talked about making yourself worthy and after all you can do and in what ways did you feel like you accomplished that or in what ways is that a struggle well yeah I I always you know going back to the being saved by grace after all you can do I you know I always felt like I was never doing enough and I was never I was never measuring up and even though even though I was living the commandments outwardly I just I still felt like something was missing though though I you know everything was in the flesh and in my mindset everything was was outwardly so I felt like I could you know measure okay well I've read the scriptures today so I'm I'm righteous in that aspect you know and I remember telling somebody that tithing was so cool because tithing was the only commandment that you could be perfect in because if you pay a 10% every we you know all your income every time then you're perfect and that commandment and so I thought that was you know I measured my righteousness on my works but I always felt like it was just this huge burden that I could never get get away from because I kept falling short I noticed you know I noticed I kept sinning and I kept doing the things that that I promised god I wouldn't do again or you know sins I kept coming back on and I couldn't help it and I and and there was nothing I could do to stop but I I just you know just somehow I held on to that non hope you know that if I if I just did the best I could God would do the rest but did you ever feel like you're kind of alone in that struggle in the sense that I'm the only one who's struggling because everyone around me seems to be having yeah I lied I did feel alone in the struggle because you know the Mormon Church you know when you go to the people you see the people you know you just think man that there's such good people they're so righteous and you just see they're outside and you and you know how you're feeling inside and you look at how these people look outwardly and it's just hard to you know you're like man well they can't be struggling with the same stuff I am you know and and it just you know it's just really hard to to understand and to work on the inward self because you're so focused on the outward so you know you don't you don't focus on your relationship with Jesus or or your heart or like Jesus says you know like anger is the same as murder lost is the same as adultery and instead of focusing on what your heart is doing in the sins that are in your heart you're focused on the outward stuff so it's really hard to you know it was really hard for me to see you know my friends and other Mormons you know that looks so righteous on the outside and then measure myself to them you know and I just felt like I never measured up I never did until until when I went on my mission and and God started opening my eyes to grace which which was the hardest thing for me to accept that I that I had to let go of my of my firts and my works and just trust God and I believe that he was enough you know that Jesus was enough to save me okay let's go into that a little bit now Youth you know what what kind of got you obviously what was your motivation for going I mentioned uh well I I believed them the Mormon Church with all my heart so you know and when I had that spiritual experience where I prayed about if I should go on a mission and felt like you know I felt God's love I felt like I should go so from that moment on I wasn't gonna let anything stop me from going on a mission and because I believed it was the only way to salvation then I put my heart into it and and I wanted to go and talk to people and and show them the truth that I knew you know because I believed that I had had found salvation it was like I believed I had found you know this great gift and I wanted to show it with everybody and give them so that they could experience the joy that I thought I had and you know and and it's hard to say now you know I do believe God led me in in that path and gave me joy so that I could so I would follow that path but nothing compares to the joy that I have now with a relationship of Jesus but I did believe I was happy and that peace you know in the Mormon Church it was I I guess it was just kind of like satisfaction that I was that that I a lot of it fed on my pride because I I'm a very prideful person and so the idea of being in like an elite group of people that are being saved especially as a male holding the priesthood which not everybody can do you know just kind of puff me up and made me feel good about myself and I guess that's really what the what the piece that I thought was you know I'm sure I felt God's love in in certain aspects and the Holy Spirit but a lot of it was just just you know thinking I was better than other people and gave me security and you know self-esteem I guess it's awful to say but I I guess that's really what it was so do you think then that the system of the left I mean if the risk of making this something like a leading question I guess do you believe that the whole setup of the Mormon Church is really to kind of play into all those issues of pride and steam and everything yeah yeah I absolutely believe that that the LDS Church the structure is all designed to feed on pride and and everything because because the more that you are obedient and and do what the Church teaches you then the more power you get because they raise you up in you know positions and then you get authority over other people and when you have authority over other people then especially when you're prideful then is really hard not to use that authority and and boss people around and stuff like when I was missionary and I got promoted to a senior companion in a district leader I saw myself doing that where I just wanted to keep going up the chain be the zone leader be assistant and because I would have more authority over more people and it just makes you feel like you're focusing on yourself and it makes you feel more powerful because you have authority over the people and so you know it's designed to just let you keep stepping up and up and up and more more influence on people and and just it definitely feeling your pride so let's talk a little bit about the process and of coming out of Mormonism into an understanding of the biblical Jesus Christ what what were the incidents of what were the issues what were the things that kind of started you on that path well while I was on the mission I met Mike Wilder and he was a fellow missionary and from the first moment I met him I came to notice later but he had he had already started reading the Bible and God had already started changing his life but when I met him immediately I just felt this love from him that I had never felt from any else before in my life and I've come to know real now that it was the love of God shining through him but it was something that I was so unfamiliar with and I was drawn to him so so we became close friends really quickly I felt like he didn't judge me and he just loved me for who I was and and so we started talking and he just encouraged me to start reading the Bible and at that time I was really focused on bringing people into the church and you know we I had lots of baptisms and stuff and so you know I was doing what them what the Mormon Church and the mission wanted me to do at the same time then this other thing started happening where I started reading the Bible and things started changing in my heart and I started realizing that things I believe didn't line up with the Bible one thing in particular I remember because as Mike and I got so close as friends and sometimes and we would read the Bible together sometimes for our for our studies and I remember we reread this one in Matthew I think where it says that whoever humbles himself will be exalted and whoever exalts himself will be humbled and I don't remember I read it and it really struck me because I think it was the Holy Spirit um you know striking me and convicting me because I realized that I was exalting myself by wanting to be these other positions and and something you have to understand when you're a Mormon missionary is your trick you're treated like a celebrity when you walk into a Mormon ward and see other members of the church and stuff they always like elder hey how are you doing and and you're treated like you know like royalty and they feed you and you know like you get all these special privileges just because you're a missionary so it was really like man you know cool I'm a missionary I'm I'm cool and everyone likes me and loves me and stuff and and I started realizing I was exalting myself and and and the Bible said that I would be humbled if I exalted myself and I was like oh that that doesn't sound good actually the word it used in the King James Version was a baised which you know like struck down or something I was like man I don't want that happen to me so that was one thing that just you know God started like you know pricking me you know with with these things that I had never realized before that was one example of it yeah well so here you're studying the Bible and you're beginning to realize that things don't line up with what you believe what are some of the issues then you really started to kind of chip away at what you had always believed well there were two two issues that were the main issues that started to really you know crumble away and fall away as I began to read the Bible one was that I didn't ever know whether I was going to be saved or not when you're a Mormon you're just taught that you know you do all you can and then Christ's grace will kick in but but you really just don't know until the end if you've done enough if you've done all you could do and so you kind of just live in this unsure 'ti of you know did I did I do enough and hopefully when I die I I have done all that I could do and and then but then I talked to Christians you know knocking on doors and they would say that they knew they were saved and I was like how do you have this confidence you know and stumble across up stumble upon first John you know where it says that you know those who believe in the Son of God that they know that they have eternal life and and all these other things like you know if you if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart then you won't be saved and it's just like you know it was so definite in the Bible that if you believe in Jesus Christ and you would be saved but I I just I didn't know if that was going to be enough and I remember one time applause I'm a mission I was I was praying to God and I just and I just realized you know the to my horror that I didn't know where I was going to go if I died that day and I asked God you know where am I gonna go if I died today and and I just you know I I think I I think I just you know sat in prayer and and was just thinking about it and stuff and I just didn't really know the answer and it just really scared me and so that led me to to keep studying the Bible where I found that if you believe in Jesus then you'll be saved you have to believe that that's enough and that's scary because as a Mormon you have a lot of security because you're your salvation is based on what you do so so as long as you're doing what you can then you and you're a good person you know and doing these righteous things than you have security in your mind and you think that you're safe and you think you're okay and to let go of all of that and just rely on just faith in Jesus Christ is really really hard for a Mormon person and for me it was really hard and so that was that was a huge stomach but that I had to get over and I just I just kept asking God and I just I just stepped out in faith you know that that was enough and as I did that I found so many confirmations in the Bible you know that it was enough and that I was saved and and eventually I began to actually believe it but at first it was just like I had I had to just throw myself off the cliff and hope that God would catch me the and the other one was about the temple and priesthood I went to a family my companion had had baptized this family and they were going through the temple and so we got to go to their ceiling and I had never been to a ceiling before and so when I went there I remember I was sitting in in the ceiling ceremony and I was really unimpressed I was just like you know I had such high expectations this is the this is the ordinance that lets you be exalted in the Mormon Church this is required for exaltation and this is like everything leads up to this this ordinance and so I'm sitting there and it was just so you know I don't mean any offense but it was so boring and so um it wasn't special at all it was just so plain and I don't even know the words you know to describe it was just so disappointing of what it was and and I remember the Holy Spirit telling me because at this point I had I had you know started having my eyes open quite a bit and the spirit told me that this was the last time I'd ever be in the sealing ceremony so so look around and enjoy whatever there was to enjoy if there was anything because that was the only time I was ever going to be there and so I walked away from that experience and I went home and I started reading the book of Hebrews because you know Micah had told me I should read the book of Hebrews and if I read it then it would help me understand how the priest in the temple was fulfilled in Jesus Christ and as I read honestly I didn't understand it at all it was like a foreign language to me but I just tried to understand and tried to try to you know just keep reading it and and finally I came to realize that Jesus Christ fulfilled fulfilled the old law that includes the prophets and the priesthood and the temple because he is all of those things and through him those things are available to us you know the royal priesthood and he is the body of Christ is the temple you know and he is our great high priest he is our prophet we don't need a man to take that place so that was the other groundbreaking thing because I realized my testimony was was built on the temple and priesthood and when those things crumbled away I just kind of felt like I was falling and I remember calling out to God and you know spiritually and and asking him to save me because it was like I was falling and I needed somebody to catch me and from that moment on I feel like I started building my life on the foundation of Jesus Christ especially as you know after this experience in the temple and and feeling like you'reyou're kind of with your really conscious of the fact that the ground is kind of crumbling underneath your feet yeah how are you dealing with this well it was a hard thing to deal with definitely went through some depression and I didn't get to the end in the bitter stage while I was on my mission because I still I guess pardon me kind of still believe that the Mormon Church was still the true church but there was just lots of problems with it you know at that point but huge depression I went through probably about a week maybe a little less where I just didn't feel like going out and knock on doors at all I mean I just like I felt like everything was torn within me my heart was ripped into felt betrayed and and you know just just totally lost and and though I started building my life on Jesus Jesus I just I didn't know where to go and the only thing I relied on at that point was the Bible and I just started reading it more and more but you know I just I felt so lost because I didn't know how how can I continue as a Mormon missionary and have and know that that the temple and the priesthood and prophets are all false and that there's no reason for him in the Mormon Church you know there's no reason for him here on earth anymore and that Jesus fulfills all that and and it was just a really hard transition for me because I had to learn how to how to you know give to Caesar what is Caesar's and give to God what was God's you know at the same time as because I had committed my two years to the Mormon Church and and the Bible teaches that when you need to be submission submissive to our authorities in Romans 13 that were under and I was under the authority of the LDS Church still at this point so I still had to follow all their rules and guidelines but at the same time it was like I was living two lives because outwardly I was living giving Caesar what was Caesar's by serving the church doing everything they asked me to do but inside I was worshiping and praising God and living for God and so I had this double life where I you know we weren't allowed to have Christian music we only had could only have Mormon Tabernacle Choir music but I but I I had Christian music and I had to you know sneak away and and listen to it where my companion wouldn't see me and it was so weird that I had to sneak to listen to Christian music you know but I my my soul just wanted to be close to God somehow and that and that connected me to God and so I felt like that was given to Caesar what Caesars in God what was God at the same time so it was like this really emotionally hard in a really hard time in my life because I just had to keep you know trying to keep this balance going and it was so hard because sometimes like I had this one companion where I would start we would like be biking or something and I would start singing like a Christian worship song or something that I had heard on the CV and and one time my companion said elder you did so good can you just go one day without seeing a Christian song and I was just like oh man you know I was like are you kidding me and and I said and he said why can't you just sing like a hymn or something and I was like I was like yeah but these are hymns man they're to God you know and he's like well just sing ones that are that are approved by them by the church leadership I was just like man you know my heart just just fell for the you know because I really loved him and it was just so sad heartbreaking you know to see the corruption and I realized I was like that so it gave me sympathy and and compassion but at the same time you know I wanted to worship God and nothing was going to stand in my way so I just had to do it secretly and and the way that you know the only way that I could so yeah so when among yourselves when you're talking when you use the term Christian do you typically refer to non-mormon you know because yeah you know the reason I'm asking that is because there's such a push among Mormons to kind of be seen as part of the Christian cold yeah so how does that terms of the the internal when you're talking back and forth among one another about you know the you know even jello brissie Adi yeah versus what is kind of being projected from the PR machine in the Mormon I know it you know it's really strange and while I was a missionary you know it was like four years ago we still like I still told people I was a Christian you know but I but we still in our mind separate us from evangelical Christianity or from the body of Christ anybody that's outside of the Mormon Church we still have a separation and a barrier in our minds though though we said oh we're Christians - but but but then when you refer to yourself you never say hey I'm a Christian you say I'm LDS I'm a Mormon I'm a latter-day Saint that's what you would say unless somebody said are you Christian oh yes we're Christian but you would never say oh yeah I'm a Christian you know better whereas the Christian body if you know Baptist Presbyterian methodist whatever if you said what do you you know what's your religion they would say I'm a Christian and that's that's it so I don't know how to I don't know how to explain you know what the mindset is with Mormons when they when they totally separate themselves from Christians yet they say that they're part there are Christians - I don't understand that yeah it doesn't make sense final straws that put you into a place where you really say yeah from from this point I was I was born again and I realized maybe that's a little difficult because it's not an early uh it's not an epiphany moment for every person at some times a process but yeah you know where where where in your whole process of being a missionary did you sort of realize or even realize in retrospect that yeah I was I was born again and what kind of project that point yeah my my born-again experience was definitely a process and for for me one of the pivotal things was when because I was a district leader so I was over a couple missionaries and the mission had divided itself into two different categories one was love elders which were the ones which Mike had started that whole movement kinda where where people were just focused on loving and serving and Jesus and that was it those were like that you know nothing else mattered more than those three things and the other category was number Nazis which is what we called them but it was no well the way it was I mean it was like it was very uh it was very obvious who was who because number Nazis were just people that focused on getting the numbers they didn't care about the people they didn't care like if somebody wasn't progressing you know keeping their commitments and stuff then they would just drop them they didn't care about him and I was like that until I'm telling that mica and you know I became a love elder but so it was just this it was this you know it was a real separation no it's okay it's it's funny but it like it was real because we actually you know we were called the love elders they were called number Nazis because it was because they were focused on numbers and we focused on love and that was just the it was a huge divide division you know and the president was also a number Nazi he was when they encouraged you know the numbers and so while I was a district leader and I started teaching the missionaries how to be loved elders and try to teach them and encourage them to focus on loving and serving and I I did this huge district many training come based off of a zone meeting training that Mike had given us and it was called the power of love and basically just explained that the the greatest commandment is to love God with all your heart and love your neighbor as yourself and if you focus on those two things then everything else will fit in a place you don't have to worry about anything else just focus on love and and you know it's all about love so I I started taking that to heart I trained these other missionaries on that at this point Mike I had already been demoted from district leader I'm in a zone leader for the same reason because he started focusing on love and service instead of worrying about numbers and getting people baptized and so I was training these missionaries on on the power of love and I got called into the mission presence office that that evening and and basically was was pudding III have was given the choice between but denying everything I knew about the power of love and denying that love and service and focusing on Jesus was more important than focusing on being a people into the church and before that I had had other experiences where I had succumbed back to the president and submitted to him and you know basically I felt like I had denied Christ and those in those instances and so at this point I was given this crossroads and I chose to follow Christ and I was demoted and it was like it was supposed to be humiliating that's that's when they you know when they demote you it's like they're stripping you of your authority and power and stuff but I I had already come to the point where I believe that Jesus was was all that I wanted so I didn't care if I was demoted or not at that point I started realizing okay I'm gonna have a big cost to follow Jesus and so I lost that you know that authority and stuff which was really hard you know on my pride and everything but then the process just keep kept continuing until after I got back from a mission and I had to choose there was a girl that waited for me and I really loved her and we had plans to get married and stuff and I had to choose between her and following and being in this ministry in this band and following what I believe God wanted me to do and being a boring Christian because she would only get married in the temple going back to you know what the Holy Spirit had already told me I was never gonna get married in the temple I was never going to see another ceiling so it was just silly that I you know that I even thought twice about that but I had to choose between you know this fiancee and Jesus and then I had to choose between my family and Jesus and basically after I had given all those huge sacrifices and given up my family giving up my friends and every I moved back to Florida after my mission and then I just immersed myself in the Word of God I really felt like that's when I would got born again though it was a process before then but at that point I believed the Bible completely and I trusted it and I trusted Jesus and and I was rebaptised water though I know that that's not what saved me but it was an expression of my faith to God and and and so I believe that was you know when I was born again and began my new life in Christ so now as a Mormon you did you have issues with the Bible did you struggle with with believing that it was reliable yeah yeah I I definitely did struggle with the Bible when I was Mormon because I believed just what I was taught that it that it was the Word of God as far as it was translated correctly but they never tell you what's translated correcting what's not so it's it's like it's like you just kind of believe it until it contracts with something you believe then okay that's not translated correctly so I just would reject that standard so what was the process that God brought you on to take you from a point of not trusting the Bible essentially huh to being able to really stick your life on it well the process of me going from not trust in the Bible to trusting it was that was pretty much throughout my entire mission and that was just involved with that I I trusted and loved Micah and looked up to him and because he was trusting the Bible then I was like I'll give it a chance I had never read it before so it was really just the issue of just reading it and when I started reading it and not and not to try to solidify my own beliefs in the Mormon Church but reading it just to say okay God this if this is your word then just teach me just tell me what your truth is and I'll believe it and basically I just wanted God's truth and and when I approached the Bible as the child just wanting God to teach me and and ready to accept anything that he taught me through the Bible and that's when my eyes began to get open and it's just kind of silly because I I read the King James Version of the Bible but to get into other versions I had to it was really a mental struggle for me because I had been taught all my life that the only the closest translation was the King James Version and so after my mission I got like an ESV or an NIV you know tried these other versions and it was it was like it was like I was trying to trying to read it but I was fighting it at the same time finally finally I just asked God to just you know release me from those previous you know mind blocks and and just to let me accept God you know your word as it is and and now I embrace any translation you know I just any translation gives more meaning and so I just love God's Word you know as pure as pure you know as I can find it so I love I love the going to the Greek and Hebrew and seeing you know the the meanings of the words and stuff like if I stumble upon something that I don't understand go to the Greek and Hebrew and and it gives you know it helps you understand it better and stuff and then you can reconcile it to other scriptures and so yeah that's awesome is that you know compare and contrast that with with the Book of Mormon which doesn't really have anything that's not like you go back to yeah yeah yeah it's you know the Book of Mormon I just see it as like a novel now you know like a fiction novel because you know there's some things in it that that are good and that line up with the Bible so I can accept those you know because truth is truth and if it lines up with the Bible then it's true no matter where it's found but but there's lots of stuff that doesn't line up and those things I just reject you know but I don't I don't care about reading it anymore because it's it's not the it's not God's words you know the and and though it has parts in it you know God's Word in the Bible is so pure and perfect that I can't substitute it with anything so now you said that you never really felt like you had a direct testimony of the Book of Mormon right yeah but when you do have a what how do you describe sort of your testimony or in whatever terms you want to call it at the Bible uh that's uh that's a tricky question you know asking if you ask a Christian why they believe in the Bible because if they just say well you know I've prayed about it and I feel like it is then Mormons could say the same thing about the Book of Mormon or anything and I it's really that's a hard thing to explain why you believe it but as you read as you read it something and you just tells you that you that is true and that is God's truth in that that you can trust it and I remember even after I was born again I just started having all these doubts just hit me about you know Jesus did Jesus really do all that he did and is that enough and just like all these doubts and when you're a Mormon when you get hit by doubts you just kind of sweep them under the rug and just ignore them hope they'll go away you don't investigate them because you're afraid what if they're true you know and but as a Christian you understand that God's truth is it doesn't change and it's and it is the same and Jesus is enough and so if you get those doubts then you investigate them and find out why am I getting these doubts and and it leads you into the Bible and basically it led me to John actually I want to read this because this is something that I think that any Christian can turn to if they ever have doubts if the Bible is Word of God or if if Jesus is enough it's when Jesus is talking to the woman at the well in Samaria is John four and let me see I gotta find it here yeah okay okay yeah so so the woman at the well is talking to Jesus and you know and I mean you know the story and then she runs off and tells other people that she's found the Christ and then and and it says that a lot of people believe because of what she said but then they come to Jesus himself and they listen to him speak and it says in verse 40 when the Samaritans came to him today and they asked him to stay with them and he stayed there two days and many more believed because of his word they said to the woman it is no longer because of what you said that we believe for we have heard for ourselves and we know that this indeed is the savior of the world and that really what that meant to me and helped me was was that not only do I just believe because other Christians believe that Jesus is enough and that the Bible is the Word of God and Jesus is the Savior the Son of God not only because of their testimony but because I have heard his word myself because I went into his word and so anytime I have belief or a doubts in my beliefs in Jesus or anything that the Bible teaches all you have to do is just go into the word and just start reading and God shows you and somehow you just you know and those doubts go right away because nothing can contend with the Word of God so that that's that's really how I approach that you actually have a personal relationship and it's a real thing yeah how do you quantify a relationship with any human being well in something with about the relationship with Jesus that you know my dad my mum and dad asked me a lot you know this relationship with Christ it's now it's nowhere in the Bible so you know I don't know where you get all this and stuff like that and you know the phrase relationship with Christ is you know Jesus Christ is not anywhere in the Bible but you know I'm researching it for a song right now that we're gonna know we're going to write about having a relationship with Christ and and everywhere in the Bible it talks about that it's about knowing Jesus knowing God loving God loving Jesus and you know that equates to a relationship with Christ and a love relationship with Christ what what answer do you give say to a Mormon who talks about the strength of their testimony what I what I tell Mormon oh my throat's getting alright what I tell Mormons about when they say they have a really strong testimony in the church or Joseph Smith or whatever any other thing besides Jesus Christ is that you know it's the principle that I learned only just recently about testing the spirits and I I've told my parents and and other friends and I've asked them ok you believe you have you've had a spiritual you know manifestation or some kind of some kind of spiritual you know experience that that says that this is true so how do you know whether that spirit was the right spirit how do you know whether that's the Spirit of God or the spirit of error like like first John says and then they say well well we just we just know and okay well the Bible says that we test the spirits because we're not supposed to believe in every spirit that comes to us but we're supposed to test them and then and in acts explains that the way we test the spirits is with the scriptures if you test the if you test those spiritual experiences in this end what the spirit what a spirit says to you with the Bible then you know whether it's true whether it's from God because it will line up with the Bible anything else you're supposed to reject so like if so if a Mormon says well I have a strong testimony that Joseph Smith was a prophet well testing that with the Bible you know test it with Hebrews where it says Jesus is our great high priest where it says that the prophets they spoke they prophesied all the way up until John and then Jesus comes and then the new law changes the changes the role of prophets to people that have the gift of prophecy but they're not like the Old Testament prophets anymore they don't speak God doesn't speak directly to them but the Holy Spirit speaks to them they don't say thus saith the Lord they say thus saith the Holy Spirit if they prophesy I'm just all of these things you test all of those things and you realize that Joseph Smith can't be a prophet a true prophet as the Old Testament prophets so therefore the spirit that said that to him is a spirit of error and and you know Mormons don't understand this principle because when I've tried to explain the testing spirits with my brother who's a Mormon he just said well you test you test the scriptures with the spirit you test it and he totally had it backward he said I test the Bible with the spirit so I pray about the Bible and if it says it's true then I spend it's true so they don't they don't have anything solid to base their testimony on and I believe that Mormons have these spiritual experiences you know and they believe you know my parents believe very strongly they these things in the temple about their dead ancestors and stuff like that and I believe that they really think that but you have to test what the what the Spirit says with the Bible and that will help you know whether it's from God otherwise you're just being led by deceiving spirits let's talk a little bit about about your mission experience and what talked a little bit about your preparation for going on a mission talking about kind of the culture as opposed okay well when a 19 year old Mormon boy well actually when you're when you're just turned 19 then you're sending your papers and when you do that it's kind of like like you're going to war you know like everyone's celebrating for you and everyone's excited and but it's definitely expected to because when you're a male in the Mormon Church you're expected it was a commandment for all worthy males to go on a mission on a mission if you're a woman it's a little different you know it's not expected but so if you don't go on a mission then you're automatically an outcast and people automatically have judgments that oh they send they're not worthy now or oh they're they just don't have a strong testimony either way it's a negative and a bad thing if you don't go on a mission and so you have this huge pressure and everyone's expecting you to go but you don't want to go for the wrong reason so if you are gonna go for the wrong reason then you like try to figure out a way to to not appear like you're going for the wrong reason I went for the right reason because I believed that it was what God wanted me to do but I have a lot of friends and knew a lot of people that went for the wrong reasons you know but anyways they'd rather you go for the wrong reason that not go at all I mean it was just it was just get him out there the way I prepared for it was I took a lot of classes I took Institute which is which is for college-age people where you know you just meet with college it's kind of like a college age Bible study though you're not studying the Bible what you're studying you know all the other Mormon scriptures and I went to a mission prep course where returned missionaries would come and talk to us tell us what it was like I didn't have an older brother that went so I didn't really know what to expect per se about my dad had gone but that was years ago and he went out of the stick you know he went to Tahiti so it was totally different experience but anyways you know I started studying the discussions that I would be teaching and trying to memorize them and trying to memorize scriptures and just you know just totally just tried to focus on all that plus tried to save money too because Mormon missionaries you know we we have to save our own money and pay for our own way which equates to about ten thousand dollars for the two years so whether it comes from you or from your parents or your ward you know it it all just we pay we pay to go so you really have to believe that what you're doing is is for God otherwise you'd be nuts to you know spend that much money and then and the other things that I did was I any movies or CDs or anything that I felt like was worldly anything that had like swear words and stuff you know tried to cleanse the outward vessel you know the outside of the cup and totally neglected the inside but but I believe you know they only measure the outside so that's what you try to clean and and you know I tried to separate myself I broke up with my girlfriend you know trying to just tried to focus everything on just God and gave like all my like almost all my clothes to my brothers you know just everything you just leave everything behind so you know and I felt like this is going to begin my new life and it really did I didn't know I was going to become born-again but it really you know but I I believed that I was going to be a different person when I came back which which I was definitely not the way I expected but that's kind of the preparations you know when you go on a mission the MTC it it's it's really intense because you go there and you get in a big room with your parents and they kind of it's like an orientation thing they kind of tell you what to expect for the next couple weeks and I was there two weeks because I was going english-speaking and then you talked for like an hour or something they tell you a bunch of stuff and then you say goodbye to your parents right there and you go out one side and your parents caught the other side I'm told that's changed now where they just say goodbye at the sidewalk like an airport so it's even less you know less connection with your parents and stuff so they're trying to separate that you know that hard goodbyes and stuff like that delaying the inevitable but anyways so then you say goodbye to them and you won't see them again for two years you know that you won't be able to call them except two two times a year Mother's Day and Christmas and you might be able to email them once a week that's about it so so you're crying and stuff and saying goodbye I love you and everything and your parents are saying they're proud of you and so then you you say goodbye and then you meet your new companion and meet all these new missionaries and you bunk up in like dorm kind of things you know foreign missionaries per room and basically you start the the next day the way that you can start the rest of your two years waking up at 6:30 and then just start studying right after breakfast eight o'clock and you study personal study just by yourself and then nine o'clock you study with your companion and in the MTC you study you know the discussions and try to memorize them and stuff and practice them with your companion just hours and hours hours and then you break for lunch and then hours you know it's all day studying in a desk and it's really hard and and and also it's like really spiritually ten tense too because like any sins that you thought you had repented of and you were forgiven like the guilt just comes right back to you and you have to like you feel like you have to go confess this to you know your leader or something I know I did even though I had already been forgiven and I knew I was forgiven but it's just it's just this this you know this power and submission to the authorities it's just so strong there that you just you feel like you have to do that and General Authorities will come see you and visit you and talk to the whole mission or the MTC and and then basically they just throw you out in the field two weeks later if you're learning a language then you're there a little longer you know to try to learn the language but and then they just throw you out there and and that first day you're expected to go door to door or like like no like nobody's business you know like like you're not terrified and freaked out and you know shell-shocked and everything so dance for the MCC is like oh the food's good though really good yeah my first day my companion he took us out tracting the first day and I was just like can we just like hang out and relax just a little bit one day you know as I can get into the mode and stuff and but we just we just went right into it and started knocking doors and contacting people and you know you're you're really shy and like timid and stuff and but but you just learn you just got a break out of your shell and just go for it and stuff in it and I got to the point where I was really aggressive and if you if I was walking along the street and somebody will across the street was walking over there I would run across dodging cars and stuff to go get them and tell them you know I was very aggressive and I didn't care you know whether they started walking away running away I mean I was going to contact everyone I saw because that's what I was taught so you know I probably went overboard mmm you know more than I had to but I really believed what I was teaching was the truth so I wanted to talk to everybody and yeah what would you want to communicate to a Mormon who is steadfast in in their commitment and their testimony of the one thing there's a lot of things obviously but well the first thing that comes to my mind that I would want to tell a steadfast a hardcore Mormon out there is that you know we as Christians and especially you know me as as you see me as an apostate but as somebody that has left the Mormon Church there is a life outside of the Mormon Church that is so more so much more rewarding than you can even imagine and it's the life of with a relationship with Jesus Christ unfettered by religion the reason why Christians reach out to Mormons is because we love we love you it kind of speaks what I want to say in Romans 10 verse one and that this is what Paul is talking to the Jews because they relied on their works for their salvation but this is exactly how I feel toward the Mormon people and it's really personal to me because my whole family except for one sister is still in the Mormon Church so I I love the Mormon people and I have compassion and mercy and this is this is what it says my heart's desire and prayer to God for them and for you Mormons is that they may be saved I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God but not according to knowledge for being ignorant of the righteousness that comes from God and seeking to establish their own they did not submit to God's righteousness for Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes the thing that I would just say is you know is that Christians we as Christians we love you Mormons and and we want you to experience the love of God that we feel and the relationship with Christ that we have and it only comes from accepting Jesus as your Savior which means that you believe that you're saved by grace through faith and not by your own works that no man may boast you know as Mormon it's easy to boast of your works because you rely on your works because you believe you're safe after all you can do but but the Bible teaches something differ and it teaches that you're saved by grace through faith and not by our works it's a gift a free gift and God wants to give it to you because he loves you and Christians reach out to Mormons because we love them and we want to bring them into that relationship because we you know especially those that have left the Mormon Church like me I've I've lived in that darkness and I thought I was in the light but only when I experienced the light of Jesus Christ in my life only then did I realize how in the dark I was and just wants you to open your heart and read the Bible as a child because it will change your life because it changed mine

Channel: Sacred Groves

Views: 12,821

Rating: 4.7027025 out of 5

Keywords: mormon, mormonism, lds, bible, biblical, christian, christianity, adams, road, joseph, warren

Id: KjPN6G8Ngq4

Length: 57min 51sec (3471 seconds)

Published: Sun Jan 23 2011